London Riots. [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

London Riots.

Sofonda Cox
08-08-2011, 10:43 PM
Disgusted. That is all.

ImmzB
08-08-2011, 10:44 PM
Yeah totally agree, they need to stop asap!

jmjhb
08-08-2011, 10:53 PM
Wonderful advertisement for the Olympics, this.

Spread to Birmingham now. Time to get the army out.

Cloudygirl
08-08-2011, 11:04 PM
I don't care about the olympics to be honest what I do care about is that people are destroying their own already deprived communities. It's stupid and senseless and is going to result in loss of life if it carries on like this.

:(

It makes me very sad.

fast_clay
08-08-2011, 11:19 PM
this is funny and true
http://llcdn8.twitvid.com/twitvidvideosv2/4/J/T/4JTZH.mp4?e=1312845120&h=8a6a287bcb146356e3ac4bddbf43725c

Clay Death
08-08-2011, 11:20 PM
read about this yesterday.

terrible news. and this is not the first time with these riots there.

Gagsquet
08-08-2011, 11:22 PM
God forgive them they are brit

rocketassist
08-08-2011, 11:41 PM
This was always going to happen once Cameron and his rich stooges were elected. Clegg even predicted it in April 2010 before the poll.

God forgive them they are brit

The Bastille?

Gagsquet
08-08-2011, 11:46 PM
The Bastille?


let's not compare apples and oranges.

buddyholly
08-09-2011, 12:06 AM
The Arab Spring knows no bounds.

kinski76
08-09-2011, 12:26 AM
Talk about domino effect. Deep-rooted dissatisfactions and resentments have clearly been brewing for some time, and this time a killing of a local simply served as an excuse to set the mob off, but in no way does this justify the rioting. The whole thing is sad and pointless. I hope you won't be seeing the "this is why multiculturalism doesn't work" threads currently in abundance on forums up here, but I'm sure sentiments like those have already popped up.

Jafooli
08-09-2011, 12:56 AM
Riots not just spreading across London, but the country now. Trouble breaking out in Liverpool, and a police station in Birmingham has been set fire to.

This has been awfully handled so far, the police are overstretched, military presence is the obvious and only solution.

rocketassist
08-09-2011, 01:13 AM
Riots not just spreading across London, but the country now. Trouble breaking out in Liverpool, and a police station in Birmingham has been set fire to.

This has been awfully handled so far, the police are overstretched, military presence is the obvious and only solution.

The Liverpool thing is being blown out of proportion. Minor disturbances, but Sky News are passing it off as a full scale riot and using a youtube vid that says Liverpool as evidence, when it isn't.

fast_clay
08-09-2011, 02:11 AM
let's not compare apples and oranges.

indeed...

egyptian blogger writes: 'we changed a regime. you steal dvd players'

Mjau!
08-09-2011, 02:19 AM
Who's rioting and why? :unsure:

Mjau!
08-09-2011, 02:21 AM
indeed...

egyptian blogger writes: 'we changed a regime. you steal dvd players'

Stealing is wrong imo. :no:

fast_clay
08-09-2011, 02:25 AM
Stealing is wrong imo. :no:

what if it is a loaf of bread to feed your family...?

or maybe a pair of nikes to shut your drunken, pregnant teenage girlfriend up...?

Mjau!
08-09-2011, 02:49 AM
what if it is a loaf of bread to feed your family...?

:yeah:

or maybe a pair of nikes to shut your drunken, pregnant teenage girlfriend up...?

:no:

Maybe :aparty: present for small child if you cannot afford... :scratch:

Pirata.
08-09-2011, 03:02 AM
I don't care about the olympics to be honest what I do care about is that people are destroying their own already deprived communities. It's stupid and senseless and is going to result in loss of life if it carries on like this.

:(

It makes me very sad.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Mjau!
08-09-2011, 03:06 AM
¿Por que?

Pirata.
08-09-2011, 03:08 AM
Started as a peaceful protest after police shot a black youth.

Turned into this mindless violence.

Kat_YYZ
08-09-2011, 03:20 AM
God forgive them they are brit

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/oct/20/french-rioters-rage-through-paris-suburb/

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/27/world/europe/27iht-france.5.8503581.html

that's a nice glass house you live in; sure you want to throw that rock?

nobama
08-09-2011, 03:29 AM
multiculturalism at it's best worst. :o

Jimnik
08-09-2011, 04:07 AM
Send in the army and shoot them all.

Chip_s_m
08-09-2011, 04:40 AM
multiculturalism at it's best worst. :o

You mean to tell me that people should NOT be forced by a government, of which they individually have almost zero influence over, to accommodate cultural attributes that are markedly different from their own, potentially even having to alter or even deny those that they were raised to accept and which may have even been a part of their heritage for centuries, all in the name of "protecting the rights" of a politically favored demographic? Whoa.

If multiculturalism is so great then it doesn't have to be forced upon people.

Pirata.
08-09-2011, 05:19 AM
multiculturalism at it's best worst. :o

:stupid:

@Sweet Cleopatra
08-09-2011, 07:53 AM
So violent :(

Arkulari
08-09-2011, 08:28 AM
5000 policemen for the royal wedding, 1400 for the riots.

Way to go UK :stupid:

Castafiore
08-09-2011, 09:14 AM
5000 policemen for the royal wedding, 1400 for the riots.

Way to go UK :stupid:
To be fair, the royal wedding is something that was scheduled long in advance so the police presence was also planned well in advance whereas I doubt that the rioters sent a friendly email, a year in advance, to inform the police that they would riot in the second week of August 2011 so to please make sure that at least 5.000 policemen are available, with kind regards.

Edit: in the night from Monday to Tuesday, 6.000 police officers were on the streets in London. The police is doing what they can IMO. They may need to help of the army.

Edit n°2: From David Cameron's statement:
The Metropolitan police commissioner has said compared with the 6,000 police on the streets last night in London, there will be some 16,000 officers tonight.
(source: The Guardian)

Black Adam
08-09-2011, 09:36 AM
Funny to see the clueless yanks blame multiculturism as expected.

Such riots always happen under a Tory Government. Coincidence? The Middle class is being erased and it won't go out quietly.

These punks have no message other than looting and violence. And targetting lower and easy meat (local stores, designer stores like Primark and JD Sports). Doubt they would go to Parliament voice their discontent.

If we had US style gun laws there'd be serious bloodshed with this angry pack.

Olympics just got bad press. If they were given to someone else that would be a waste of £14 billion of tax payers money. I can't understand why they are being held in a dump like East London.

Gagsquet
08-09-2011, 11:04 AM
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/oct/20/french-rioters-rage-through-paris-suburb/

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/27/world/europe/27iht-france.5.8503581.html

that's a nice glass house you live in; sure you want to throw that rock?


I never said we are better than brit. But the "La Bastille?" post in reply to my provocation was really funny.


England-Holland canceled due to riots.

Blackbriar
08-09-2011, 11:30 AM
you are witnessing the collapse of Liberalism and Internationalism
The heritage of the "so great" Tony Blair(eau)

l_mac
08-09-2011, 11:46 AM
Talk about domino effect. Deep-rooted dissatisfactions and resentments have clearly been brewing for some time, and this time a killing of a local simply served as an excuse to set the mob off, but in no way does this justify the rioting. The whole thing is sad and pointless. I hope you won't be seeing the "this is why multiculturalism doesn't work" threads currently in abundance on forums up here, but I'm sure sentiments like those have already popped up.

These riots don't have anything to do with deep rooted dissatisfaction and resentment. :rolleyes:
5000 policemen for the royal wedding, 1400 for the riots.

Way to go UK :stupid:

:stupid: for you.

zeleni
08-09-2011, 02:01 PM
Unacceptable behavior of British regime - shooting and killing its own people...

NATO should bomb UK if regime refuses to leave power... ICC soon to reveal indictment against David Cameron and other responsible for these terrible crimes.

buddyholly
08-09-2011, 02:05 PM
Funny to see the clueless yanks blame multiculturism as expected.



I thought it was Europe that has a multiculturalism debate going.

North America is a continent of immigrants. Multiculturalism is built in.

buddyholly
08-09-2011, 02:08 PM
This was always going to happen once Cameron and his rich stooges were elected. Clegg even predicted it in April 2010 before the poll.





Why didn't the government just hand out flat screens to everyone and avoid this mess? It is such an obvious solution.

Sunset of Age
08-09-2011, 02:34 PM
So sad to see people destroying their already deprived surroundings. And for what cause? What reason is there behind it?
Hope it ends soon, hopefully without too many casualties. Terrible, this.

Roamed
08-09-2011, 02:37 PM
The people who are doing this deserve no sympathy and don't belong to any particular group, so trying to make a political point by saying this proves we should come down harder on various groups is stupid. They seem to have no motivation apart from a hedonistic pursuit of damage and violence in order to nick a few flat screen TVs. I've seen quotes about people wanting to get back at the rich and so they're destroying family businesses and making other people homeless. Disgusting. The police officers dealing with it deserve a lot of respect.

Sunset of Age
08-09-2011, 02:43 PM
The people who are doing this deserve no sympathy and don't belong to any particular group, so trying to make a political point by saying this proves we should come down harder on various groups is stupid. They seem to have no motivation apart from a hedonistic pursuit of damage and violence in order to nick a few flat screen TVs. I've seen quotes about people wanting to get back at the rich and so they're destroying family businesses and making other people homeless. Disgusting. The police officers dealing with it deserve a lot of respect.

That's more than sad, that is indeed purely disgusting.
So it's mainly *greed*, together with some primitive 'need' to go out rioting, that's causing all of this? Hard to believe, there must be some kind of underlying dissatisfaction behind it - at least I hope so, as that would give some kind of a 'reason' (note the parenthesis, I'm absolutely not condoning it!) for this havoc.

Damn. :mad:

Roamed
08-09-2011, 02:56 PM
That's more than sad, that is indeed purely disgusting.
So it's mainly *greed*, together with some primitive 'need' to go out rioting, that's causing all of this? Hard to believe, there must be some kind of underlying dissatisfaction behind it - at least I hope so, as that would give some kind of a 'reason' (note the parenthesis, I'm absolutely not condoning it!) for this havoc.

Damn. :mad:

You're right, there is definitely underlying dissatisfaction, I don't think it is any excuse for what they've chosen to do though. The fact that it's snowballing in my opinion shows that on some level some people are only joining in because they feel like they are able to get away with things they might not be able to get away with, given how much the police are now under strain. There was footage of some teenager on Sky News running away yesterday who was asked why she was stealing a television, which she was doing, and she said it was to get her taxes back when she looked barely old enough to have even paid any. I mean when you have scenes like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo), with people stealing from an injured boy, they just seemed to be acting in such a way that the way they're acting in my opinion contradicts any righteous complaint about social deprivation. :sad:

Filo V.
08-09-2011, 03:03 PM
The dissatisfaction comes from people who feel as if they've been treated like trash, ignored and seen as unwanted outsiders in their own countries. That's essentially what all of these riots that have been occuring lately in "developed" countries are about. Teens who lack self-esteem, have grown up in violence, and have been disaffected by the societies they live in that have taught them to essentially hold an angst against greater society (ie. anti-social kids who beat others to feel good about themselves, to feel strong). People who have been completely numbed to violence and see it as a way to make a point. Communities where 5 out of 100 people have finished graduate school. Adults, young and old, who really have absolutely nothing to do and live for and feel hopeless.

It's probably going to get worse before it gets better. Somewhat putting aside the barbaric behavior of these individuals, if the expectations and views of a class of people is that they're basically animals, then when they act like animals, I don't understand why people get so surprised by that. No-one expects these individuals to do anything better for themselves, no-one holds these individuals accountable to do better for themselves. No-one cares, unless/until someone else gets hurt.

Filo V.
08-09-2011, 03:07 PM
The kids/teens who commit these crimes are simply following and acting out what they have been essentially force-fed by their parents (although many of them lack any sort of family structure, which is another reason why incidents like this occur), and/or communities. They don't really know any better, kids make bad decisions when they're not educated, kids are prone to lapses in judgment, and kids like to follow what the "pack" is doing to fit in. We're being held down, we're being disrespected and disenfranchised, we're victims of a fundamental social/economic/etc. system that is against us. These people feel attacked so they attack back. Not excusing their bullshit, but that's what it is.

abraxas21
08-09-2011, 03:31 PM
Started as a peaceful protest after police shot a black youth.

Turned into this mindless violence.

sounds similar to what detonated the greek riots back in 2008.

i dont know anything about this, though.

abraxas21
08-09-2011, 03:34 PM
The kids/teens who commit these crimes are simply following and acting out what they have been essentially force-fed by their parents (although many of them lack any sort of family structure, which is another reason why incidents like this occur), and/or communities. They don't really know any better, kids make bad decisions when they're not educated, kids are prone to lapses in judgment, and kids like to follow what the "pack" is doing to fit in. We're being held down, we're being disrespected and disenfranchised, we're victims of a fundamental social/economic/etc. system that is against us. These people feel attacked so they attack back. Not excusing their bullshit, but that's what it is.

sounds similar to the underlying dissatisfaction of the protestors and rioters here in chile

rocketassist
08-09-2011, 03:52 PM
The dissatisfaction comes from people who feel as if they've been treated like trash, ignored and seen as unwanted outsiders in their own countries. That's essentially what all of these riots that have been occuring lately in "developed" countries are about. Teens who lack self-esteem, have grown up in violence, and have been disaffected by the societies they live in that have taught them to essentially hold an angst against greater society (ie. anti-social kids who beat others to feel good about themselves, to feel strong). People who have been completely numbed to violence and see it as a way to make a point. Communities where 5 out of 100 people have finished graduate school. Adults, young and old, who really have absolutely nothing to do and live for and feel hopeless.


Lots of sense in this.

The 'barbarians damaging our country' as some are saying aren't doing this for no reason. Something's triggered it off and the difficulties that our current government have slung around their necks simply does not help.

Trebled tuition fees putting people off education, and 85% cuts in activities for the young = pissed off people in the deprived working class areas.

Note how none of the well off areas have experienced any trouble- central London for a start.

Sunset of Age
08-09-2011, 04:13 PM
You're right, there is definitely underlying dissatisfaction, I don't think it is any excuse for what they've chosen to do though. The fact that it's snowballing in my opinion shows that on some level some people are only joining in because they feel like they are able to get away with things they might not be able to get away with, given how much the police are now under strain. There was footage of some teenager on Sky News running away yesterday who was asked why she was stealing a television, which she was doing, and she said it was to get her taxes back when she looked barely old enough to have even paid any. I mean when you have scenes like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo), with people stealing from an injured boy, they just seemed to be acting in such a way that the way they're acting in my opinion contradicts any righteous complaint about social deprivation. :sad:

Well... I agree partially, as basically, I indeed think there's NO excuse whatsoever for people starting to act like a bunch of baboons like they do.
However...

The dissatisfaction comes from people who feel as if they've been treated like trash, ignored and seen as unwanted outsiders in their own countries. That's essentially what all of these riots that have been occuring lately in "developed" countries are about. Teens who lack self-esteem, have grown up in violence, and have been disaffected by the societies they live in that have taught them to essentially hold an angst against greater society (ie. anti-social kids who beat others to feel good about themselves, to feel strong).

... yes, folks who keep on being treated like trash, are going to end up acting like trash, there's surely some truth in that.

That said: what I've seen in my papers, and on the vids, is basically well-nourished, well-dressed individuals. They've been reported to summon their associates to rioting by using their mobile phones and facebook - which means they don't actually own the most primitive kind of mobile phones but occasionally even stuff like blackberry's and iPhones -gadgets which I, and I'm sure many other civilized people too, think are TOO EXPENSIVE, despite our so-called well-payed jobs.

So, 'treated like trash'? Certainly, in some cases, but I can't help that there is also a very greedy mindset like 'we have the right to own everything, right here and right now' going on, imho stimulated by the genuinely fucked up-society in which we live where it's all about what you *own* rather than who you are, and wherein a complete generation has learnt to live on loans and in depts and considers such as perfectly normal.

As usual... there are two sides to the story, and neither black or white readings of it is entirely true or false.

Silver.
08-09-2011, 04:59 PM
Unbelievable.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

It's utterly pathetic.

Pirata.
08-09-2011, 05:04 PM
North America is a continent of immigrants. Multiculturalism is built in.

The USA has a huge problem with racist; in the UK, I feel like it's based more on immigrants/the class system.


The dissatisfaction comes from people who feel as if they've been treated like trash, ignored and seen as unwanted outsiders in their own countries. That's essentially what all of these riots that have been occuring lately in "developed" countries are about. Teens who lack self-esteem, have grown up in violence, and have been disaffected by the societies they live in that have taught them to essentially hold an angst against greater society (ie. anti-social kids who beat others to feel good about themselves, to feel strong). People who have been completely numbed to violence and see it as a way to make a point. Communities where 5 out of 100 people have finished graduate school. Adults, young and old, who really have absolutely nothing to do and live for and feel hopeless.

It's probably going to get worse before it gets better. Somewhat putting aside the barbaric behavior of these individuals, if the expectations and views of a class of people is that they're basically animals, then when they act like animals, I don't understand why people get so surprised by that. No-one expects these individuals to do anything better for themselves, no-one holds these individuals accountable to do better for themselves. No-one cares, unless/until someone else gets hurt.

I can't give you a good rep, but very well said.

Sunset of Age
08-09-2011, 07:23 PM
Anyone who still tries to find excuses, whatever it may be, for the ghastly behaviour of (some/plenty of) the rioteers, please listen to the interview in this link:

http://audioboo.fm/boos/434411-leana-hosea-speaks-to-croydon-looters-on-bbcworldservice

"Good fun" "we hope it goes on tonight" etc.

If these iPod-owning, booze drinking 17-year old dimwits have become the monsters they apparently are because they've been 'treated like trash' in the past, then let me say this: I hope they'll get a lot more of that treatment, preferably behind bars, for a very long time.
Un-f*cking-believable, what a mindless, selfish looters. :help:

out_here_grindin
08-09-2011, 08:24 PM
The USA has a huge problem with racist; in the UK, I feel like it's based more on immigrants/the class system.




.

It's very overrated. I have seen many Europeans on this board make comments like that. You guys seem to have the impression that the US is just nothing but racist slime. Simply isn't true at all.

Black Adam
08-09-2011, 08:49 PM
FFS, riots are nearing my neighbourhood :sad:

No shops nearby but I am up for a neighbourhood watch in case something funky happens. Kudos to that Turkish Community who chased the thugs from their neighbourhood.

Call-me-Dave should have the balls to put a curfew and not tell the thugs that 16000 cops will be in London leaving them to turn their attention to other cities.

Was shocked to hear that the Bull's head in the Bullring in Birmingham was sawed off....bunch of MOFOs. Won't be shocked if it spreads tp Europe, especially in the PIIGS where things are just boiling.

2012 world end because human stupidity has peaked.

tangerine_dream
08-09-2011, 08:51 PM
Lookit what those wilding, saggy-pant yutes have done, they've caused the defending Roger's Cup champ to lose. :(

buddyholly
08-09-2011, 09:50 PM
It's very overrated. I have seen many Europeans on this board make comments like that. You guys seem to have the impression that the US is just nothing but racist slime. Simply isn't true at all.
I like the way he says in the US it is racism and in Europe it is immigration. Like white Anglo-Saxon Protestants are singled out and discriminated against for being immigrants. Of course the people who write that stuff have probably never been to the US.

Watching the videos it seems that British youths today believe that adults were created that way and never were youths like them, with all the problems of growing up and creating a life.

Orka_n
08-09-2011, 10:14 PM
The world is gradually going mad.

buddyholly
08-09-2011, 10:16 PM
The world is gradually going mad.

More like exponentially.

Arkulari
08-09-2011, 11:09 PM
Interesting site:

http://catchalooter.tumblr.com/

Garson007
08-09-2011, 11:45 PM
Expected fight back by the proletariat class of a densely populated modern capitalistic first-world country. Nothing new here. Teens have nothing to do, but they get covered just enough not to have to work by the government, but not enough to actually get an education to improve their employment viability. They feel disenfranchised and worthless resulting in them having a night out looting in the name of fun, to get away from their exceedingly frustrating boring life.

When will these countries ever learn, education /must/ be free. Job creation serves a purpose bigger than just financial means - it gives you something to do.

Jimnik
08-09-2011, 11:55 PM
When will these countries ever learn, education /must/ be free.
Education is already free up to the age of 18. Even university is cheap as long as you settle for average quality.

If you expect every student to get free Oxbridge standard education, I'd sure love to know how you would finance it. Get professors to work for free? Or get the Bank of England to print an extra 100 billion a year?

StevoTG
08-09-2011, 11:55 PM
There's a lot I would like to say about the riots, but I'll try not to get into too much detail here.

Firstly, I don't condone violence. Any little good it can accomplish is almost always outweighed by the horror and destruction.
However, some people are taking a very simplistic view of events, talking about things as though it were a simple case of bad guys being bad. There were those who had good intentions, there are those who are taking advantage of a terrible situation to suit their own means, there are many caught in the middle.

To put it in a way that has already been used in this thread, there are people who have treated like animals, acting like animals. These people, most likely, are not well educated and are quicker to turn to violence.
There are others who do not come from the bottom rungs of the societal ladder, who have been brought up not wanting for much, with a sense of entitlement, and who value little but their own satisfaction.

I don't condone physical harm to other beings, but I do suggest that we look to understand the behaviour and where it came from. These people were not born violent - that's not me trying to cover for or excuse individuals. Of course, anyone who inflicts harm on another is accountable for their own actions and should face reprecussions (Which could easily lead to a tangent on the benefits and drawbacks of jail).

The state are not equipped to deal with this, they are more a part of the problem than the solution.

Also, to those police officers who are on the streets, trying to save lives, I hope they return home safely to their families after work. People have been seriously injured in these riots, the last thing we need is a body count.

StevoTG
08-10-2011, 12:02 AM
Education is already free up to the age of 18. Even university is cheap as long as you settle for average quality.

If you expect every student to get free Oxbridge standard education, I'd sure love to know how you would finance it. Get professors to work for free? Or get the Bank of England to print an extra 100 billion a year?


Do you know how much it costs to go to an average university for a year? (Genuine question, in case you think I'm trying to be smart).

I, for one, can not currently afford 3rd level education. I'm trying to make the most of what is free/affordable - the library, online lectures etc. Though getting a degree is a different matter.

Garson007
08-10-2011, 12:03 AM
If you expect every student to get free Oxbridge standard education, I'd sure love to know how you would finance it.
Eh? As long as the degree is recognised it shouldn't matter where it was obtained. Point is that having any real skills (and high school really doesn't teach you any worthy of the middle class) is important to stand a chance of employment. If you do not have a degree besides your name, have no skilled job history and don't have contacts within an industry you're toast. As for it being cheap? It should be free. No student wants to start their life with debt, in a much worse position than they would have been if they just lived off of welfare. People don't think 30 years down the line, they think 5, as well they should - the world changes fast.

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 12:05 AM
To put it in a way that has already been used in this thread, there are people who have treated like animals, acting like animals.
Animals in the wild don't sit on their ass expecting free food, housing and healthcare. These people are more like domesticated pets rebelling against their masters than wild animals.

StevoTG
08-10-2011, 12:09 AM
Animals in the wild don't sit on their ass expecting free food, housing and healthcare. These people are more like domesticated pets rebelling against their masters than wild animals.

I was thinking more along the lines of caged animals than a lion on the savanna.

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 12:10 AM
Do you know how much it costs to go to an average university for a year? (Genuine question, in case you think I'm trying to be smart).
A lot less than it should. I got mine for $10,000 a year which does not cover all university expenses.

So again I ask where you expect the money to come from?

Garson007
08-10-2011, 12:13 AM
These people are more like domesticated pets rebelling against their masters than wild animals.
Masters that do not care for them, other than for keeping them alive. No kicking, no shouting - just plain disinterest. People are smart enough to realise that only the "I" will ever care. Yet, without their master's interest they won't ever amount to much.

Garson007
08-10-2011, 12:15 AM
A lot less than it should. I got mine for $10,000 a year which does not cover all university expenses.
$10,000 is a lot of money for someone who lives off of welfare.

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 12:21 AM
Point is that having any real skills (and high school really doesn't teach you any worthy of the middle class) is important to stand a chance of employment. If you do not have a degree besides your name, have no skilled job history and don't have contacts within an industry you're toast.
This is wrong on so many levels. Firstly, high school teaches you plenty (I was 16 when I got my first desk job). Secondly, you can't expect to go straight from education into a high paying job. Every skilled worker starts with an unskilled job and works their way up. Thirdly, there have been many examples of people taking the initiative and making money without a degree.


As for it being cheap? It should be free. No student wants to start their life with debt, in a much worse position than they would have been if they just lived off of welfare.
So if students don't pay for their own education, where is the money coming from?

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 12:24 AM
Masters that do not care for them, other than for keeping them alive. No kicking, no shouting - just plain disinterest. People are smart enough to realise that only the "I" will ever care. Yet, without their master's interest they won't ever amount to much.
Except the masters are already providing free jobless claims, education, healthcare and housing. Impressive for people who don't care.

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 12:26 AM
$10,000 is a lot of money for someone who lives off of welfare.
But not for someone who works and saves. Just how much welfare would you give someone who doesn't work?

StevoTG
08-10-2011, 12:32 AM
A lot less than it should. I got mine for $10,000 a year which does not cover all university expenses.

So again I ask where you expect the money to come from?

Well enough money has been pissed down the drain in recent years. Could try throwing some of that at education instead of banks.

As for giving money to people who don't work. If there are people who are simply unwilling to work, then I can understand you not wanting them to be given money. How do you feel about the large amount of unemployed who can't get a job for a variety of reasons, including a lack of qualifications? Unemployement levels are pretty high. Surely they're not all people seeking to sponge money.

Garson007
08-10-2011, 12:36 AM
Firstly, high school teaches you plenty (I was 16 when I got my first desk job).
Well, aren't you just a wonderful person.

Secondly, you can't expect to go straight from education into a high paying job.
Uh. Where did I say that?

Every skilled worker starts with an unskilled job and works their way up.
That's simply not true. I have no idea where you're pulling that from. They might give you time to get a feel for the occupation, but you'll be thrown in the deep end soon enough. The whole problem is that there just aren't enough unskilled jobs to go around and it doesn't make me a Luddite for saying it. Quite the opposite, we have to give everyone more important jobs - but first they have to be able to do them.

Thirdly, there have been many examples of people taking the initiative and making money without a degree.
Uh, yes. What is your point exactly? Not everyone are entrepreneurs or have good social skills to network their way in. People just aren't built that ambitious.

So if students don't pay for their own education, where is the money coming from?
The answer for this one is obvious right? Government. You know, the same institute that pays for the roadworks, the Olympics, etc.

Except the masters are already providing free jobless claims, education, healthcare and housing. Impressive for people who don't care.
I think all of those fall under the statistic of "keeping them alive." Nice try though.

But not for someone who works and saves. Just how much welfare would you give someone who doesn't work?
You've discovered the unquenchable low-skill job creation magical fountain then?

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 12:37 AM
Well enough money has been pissed down the drain in recent years. Could try throwing some of that at education instead of banks.
Finally something we agree on.


As for giving money to people who don't work. If there are people who are simply unwilling to work, then I can understand you not wanting them to be given money. How do you feel about the large amount of unemployed who can't get a job for a variety of reasons, including a lack of qualifications? Unemployement levels are pretty high. Surely they're not all people seeking to sponge money.
Yea but how do you distinguish between laziness and failure? The number of times they visit the job center?

Pfloyd
08-10-2011, 12:39 AM
It's easy to point fingers.

These acts reflect a larger problem that needs to be adressed.

Socio-economic problems mixes with opportunists and you get this.

To blame this soley on immigration and to make any allusions to the arab srping is racist.

This is not black and white.

Arkulari
08-10-2011, 12:52 AM
Animals in the wild don't sit on their ass expecting free food, housing and healthcare. These people are more like domesticated pets rebelling against their masters than wild animals.

That's a big problem, welfare is good for those who got fired and cannot find a new job to support their families but it is slowly turning into a way of life for many, why would they work if the government supports them? those chavettes who get pregnant just to get more benefits are a big case of this.

Garson007
08-10-2011, 12:53 AM
Education is an investment. Unemployment benefits are not. Government should learn as much.

Chip_s_m
08-10-2011, 01:05 AM
Education is an investment. Unemployment benefits are not. Government should learn as much.

If it's such an attractive investment then why does the government have to throw money at it? Wouldn't investors be lining up to support such a wonderful venture?

jmjhb
08-10-2011, 01:14 AM
Eh? As long as the degree is recognised it shouldn't matter where it was obtained. Point is that having any real skills (and high school really doesn't teach you any worthy of the middle class) is important to stand a chance of employment. If you do not have a degree besides your name, have no skilled job history and don't have contacts within an industry you're toast. As for it being cheap? It should be free. No student wants to start their life with debt, in a much worse position than they would have been if they just lived off of welfare. People don't think 30 years down the line, they think 5, as well they should - the world changes fast.

One thing the UK doesn't need is yet more people going to university. A (non-vocational) bachelor's degree is frankly pretty worthless as it is, it's no longer education for education's sake which it should be. For most young people, it's a means to supposedly a 'better job and a better life' but when there are 83 graduates going for each job, there's absolutely no hope for some people - and instead they've wasted 3 years of their life and $25-30K for no discernible gain.

With roughly 50% of 18-year olds going to university and the vast majority of them struggling to find a 'decent job', yet more people going to university would just exacerbate the problem.

buddyholly
08-10-2011, 01:19 AM
Expected fight back by the proletariat class of a densely populated modern capitalistic first-world country. Nothing new here. Teens have nothing to do, but they get covered just enough not to have to work by the government, but not enough to actually get an education to improve their employment viability. They feel disenfranchised and worthless resulting in them having a night out looting in the name of fun, to get away from their exceedingly frustrating boring life.

When will these countries ever learn, education /must/ be free. Job creation serves a purpose bigger than just financial means - it gives you something to do.

Well, you seem to be someone else that does not seem to realise that educations are not just handed out. You say teens have nothing to do. I suppose homework and some educational reading would not be ''something to do'' in your book. You seem to think the government should hand out a ready-made education, but don't seem to realize an education needs some work on the students' part.

Saying that teens have nothing to do, seems like you also fall into that entitlement trap, where eventually teens come to think that someone else should provide ''something to do.''

As I said above, from listening to today's looters, you get the opinion they think they are the world's first teenagers.

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 01:20 AM
One thing the UK doesn't need is yet more people going to university. A (non-vocational) bachelor's degree is frankly pretty worthless as it is, it's no longer education for education's sake which it should be. For most young people, it's a means to supposedly a 'better job and a better life' but when there are 83 graduates going for each job, there's absolutely no hope for some people - and instead they've wasted 3 years of their life and $25-30K for no discernible gain.

When you end up at university you end up becoming an eloquent, intellectual individual and not some chav on the streets asking for a bluey so they can buy a bottle of voddy or something.

Garson has it spot on.

StevoTG
08-10-2011, 01:23 AM
Yea but how do you distinguish between laziness and failure? The number of times they visit the job center?

It's a fair point. There's no easy answer.

One thing the UK doesn't need is yet more people going to university. A degree is frankly pretty worthless as it is.

Beacause unemployment is going to rise further, as will social unrest as the system goes to hell in a handbascket (with us inside)? Just putting that out there for comment.

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 01:23 AM
Well, you seem to be someone else that does not seem to realise that educations are not just handed out. You say teens have nothing to do. I suppose homework and some educational reading would not be ''something to do'' in your book. You seem to think the government should hand out a ready-made education, but don't seem to realize an education needs some work on the students' part.

Saying that teens have nothing to do, seems like you also fall into that entitlement trap, where eventually teens come to think that someone else should provide ''something to do.''

As I said above, from listening to today's looters, you get the opinion they think they are the world's first teenagers.

They shouldn't be trebling tuition fees for fuck sake!

StevoTG
08-10-2011, 01:24 AM
I agree with rocketassist. Just because there are people with degrees struggling to find work, it doesn't mean that their education has no worth. You can't put a price on education.

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 01:24 AM
Jimnik the Thatcherite, course it's not the government's fault :haha:

buddyholly
08-10-2011, 01:25 AM
People don't think 30 years down the line, they think 5, as well they should - the world changes fast.

Another example of a mindset that expects the government to not just give it things, but to plan ahead for it.

jmjhb
08-10-2011, 01:28 AM
I'd wager that most people these days in the UK aren't going to university to learn, and instead are going as 'a means to an end' to get a better job because the alternative isn't worth thinking about. Or at least that's what's happened with the past 10-15 years with the scrapping of all the apprenticeships, the loss of industry in the country, and Blair's pledge to get every other child to university.

That needs to change.

Topspindoctor
08-10-2011, 01:28 AM
They need to use real bullets to scatter the crowds, not plastic ones. I bet that would stop the riots pretty fast.

jmjhb
08-10-2011, 01:30 AM
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/sangat-tv

This is pretty good, it's basically 3 Sikh guys driving round Birmingham in a car with a camera. They're talking a lot of sense.

Chip_s_m
08-10-2011, 01:30 AM
I agree with rocketassist. Just because there are people with degrees struggling to find work, it doesn't mean that their education has no worth. You can't put a price on education.

Awww isn't that sweet...

Of course, education does have a price, as people pay for it everyday.

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 01:31 AM
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/sangat-tv

This is pretty good, it's basically 3 Sikh guys driving round Birmingham in a car with a camera. They're talking a lot of sense.

I've got them on Sky channel 847. They're trending on Twitter as we speak.

buddyholly
08-10-2011, 01:32 AM
They shouldn't be trebling tuition fees for fuck sake!

Yes, grammar lessons should be free.

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 01:35 AM
I'd wager that most people these days in the UK aren't going to university to learn, and instead are going as 'a means to an end' to get a better job because the alternative isn't worth thinking about.

That needs to change.

Well then they drop out don't they. Personally I think that there should be stricter payback rules on tuition fees for those who couldn't be arsed, though it's difficult to prove it.

Sure loads go to uni for the fun side of it, and in the first year I partied loads. But 90% knuckle down in year 2 onwards and the duds drop out.

As for jobs and opportunities, if the ConDems didn't cut the youth funds, scrap EMA (which is always bait for kids to stay on) and insist on police numbers being cut, then these riots wouldn't happen.

13 years of Labour, minor gripes, no major dissatisfaction. One year of Tory rule and there's been two major escalations of violence (the students did it in November)

Basically Tories = riots.

StevoTG
08-10-2011, 01:35 AM
Awww isn't that sweet...

Of course, education does have a price, as people pay for it everyday.

The concept of something being too valuable to put some amount of money as it's equivalent is new to you? If I say that you can't put a price on human life will you find that sweet too?

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 01:36 AM
The McDonalds and Pyramids shopping centre 20 minutes from mine have been trashed. 40 arrests.

This is the north west by the way, nowhere near London.

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 01:37 AM
Awww isn't that sweet...

Of course, education does have a price, as people pay for it everyday.

And? it's worth paying for. Those who don't get it, end up a chav/scally on the streets asking you to go the off licence for them.

jmjhb
08-10-2011, 01:39 AM
They're rioting a bit round here too, I was in a pub earlier and the police came in and told us to lock the doors.

And? it's worth paying for. Those who don't get it, end up a chav/scally on the streets asking you to go the off licence for them.

Don't think that's true at all. The most successful people I know didn't go to university, or dropped out in their first year. If you're hard-working you're more likely to succeed either way.

Chip_s_m
08-10-2011, 01:41 AM
The concept of something being too valuable to put some amount of money as it's equivalent is new to you? If I say that you can't put a price on human life will you find that sweet too?

If someone is willing to buy a human (which is immoral of course) then yes, you can in fact put a price on a human life. Same goes for education, or any other product/service.

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 01:44 AM
They're rioting a bit round here too, I was in a pub earlier and the police came in and told us to lock the doors.



Don't think that's true at all. The most successful people I know didn't go to university, or dropped out in their first year. If you're hard-working you're likely to succeed either way.

I meant those who stayed in some sort of education. Success for a school leaver at 16 into a job is rare unless it's a footballer or other sports. Usually they could stay on till 18 or end up doing a college diploma in something.

A mate of mine did a college diploma in Sports Science and now he coaches youngsters football and basketball at a college in Cheshire, that type of stuff. Doesn't necessarily have to be university, although having a degree helps (hasn't helped me in all my applications yet!)

Chip_s_m
08-10-2011, 01:46 AM
And? it's worth paying for. Those who don't get it, end up a chav/scally on the streets asking you to go the off licence for them.

Not for everyone. It totally depends on an individual's preferences. I'd love to have a bunch of PhDs in any number of subjects. However, to me it's not worth the cost (both financial and time).

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 01:53 AM
Not for everyone. It totally depends on an individual's preferences. I'd love to have a bunch of PhDs in any number of subjects. However, to me it's not worth the cost (both financial and time).

They should bring the cost down then. Our joke of a government trebled the fees for degrees (the party propping up the Tories were proposing free education but then turned their backs on this policy when they jumped into bed)

Sunset of Age
08-10-2011, 01:55 AM
That's a big problem, welfare is good for those who got fired and cannot find a new job to support their families but it is slowly turning into a way of life for many, why would they work if the government supports them? those chavettes who get pregnant just to get more benefits are a big case of this.

Unfortunately, this is very true.
Look, I dunno what you people have been watching from the vids on this rioting, but those folks smashing the windows of local shops ("the rich" according to those lowlifes :rolleyes:) to get themselves a free flatscreen TV are NOT poor, deprived, or anything.

They are merely selfish, spoilt BRATS who have never realized that in order to achieve something, you may need to work your ass off, in stead of believing that 'everything's out there for free'.

The poor people in Somalia, THEY have a 'right' to riot. So do the folks in the Arabic countries against their dictator governments.

Not these idiots who seem to think that the government should provide them a house, a job, and a retirement benefit, all for nothing-in-return. And don't tell me that these folks are so 'poor' because they cannot afford to go to university. There is nothing wrong with a decent job as a plumber, a secretary, or whatsoever, either.

Make it stop.

Chip_s_m
08-10-2011, 02:09 AM
They should bring the cost down then. Our joke of a government trebled the fees for degrees (the party propping up the Tories were proposing free education but then turned their backs on this policy when they jumped into bed)

Ok, if it's not worth it to you then you don't have to pay for it. Is anyone forcing you to?

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 02:39 AM
Unfortunately, this is very true.
Look, I dunno what you people have been watching from the vids on this rioting, but those folks smashing the windows of local shops ("the rich" according to those lowlifes :rolleyes:) to get themselves a free flatscreen TV are NOT poor, deprived, or anything.

They are merely selfish, spoilt BRATS who have never realized that in order to achieve something, you may need to work your ass off, in stead of believing that 'everything's out there for free'.

The poor people in Somalia, THEY have a 'right' to riot. So do the folks in the Arabic countries against their dictator governments.

Not these idiots who seem to think that the government should provide them a house, a job, and a retirement benefit, all for nothing-in-return. And don't tell me that these folks are so 'poor' because they cannot afford to go to university. There is nothing wrong with a decent job as a plumber, a secretary, or whatsoever, either.

Make it stop.

Too much Thatcher in that post for my liking.

The socially deprived areas are the ones with the riots, because their livelihood is getting shit on by this pathetic government taking away their public services.

Look at the student protest in November. They rioted, because the tuition fees were trebled and one of the parties in the coalition, who were pro-education, went back on their pledges. They LIED.

I'm sorry but I won't have anyone outside this country trying to make out our government are blameless in this.

People don't riot unless there's a reason to.

13 years under previous administration and the worst shit we got was BNP-exploited racial disturbances in Bradford and such places.

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 02:41 AM
Ok, if it's not worth it to you then you don't have to pay for it. Is anyone forcing you to?

I am paying for it yes. However the cost of a BA Hons has been TREBLED from £3,000 to £9,000 for future students.

Chip_s_m
08-10-2011, 02:57 AM
Too much Thatcher in that post for my liking.

The socially deprived areas are the ones with the riots, because their livelihood is getting shit on by this pathetic government taking away their public services.

Look at the student protest in November. They rioted, because the tuition fees were trebled and one of the parties in the coalition, who were pro-education, went back on their pledges. They LIED.

I'm sorry but I won't have anyone outside this country trying to make out our government are blameless in this.

People don't riot unless there's a reason to.

13 years under previous administration and the worst shit we got was BNP-exploited racial disturbances in Bradford and such places.

Your situation is indeed quite frustrating. However, it seems to me like you've accurately hit the nail on the head with regard to the causes. I don't understand why we've let such important products and services as education, healthcare, housing, utilities, transportation, and even food become subject to the political instability inherent in democratic (and perhaps all?) forms of government. Obviously, no one likes to see downgrades to vital institutions like these. It's a shame that our systems of government don't hold anyone accountable for such unpopular measures. Perhaps it would be best to remove the politics from them entirely. I don't see any reason why such clowns as [insert least favorite politicians here] should have any involvement at all.

abraxas21
08-10-2011, 04:20 AM
Anyone who still tries to find excuses, whatever it may be, for the ghastly behaviour of (some/plenty of) the rioteers, please listen to the interview in this link:

http://audioboo.fm/boos/434411-leana-hosea-speaks-to-croydon-looters-on-bbcworldservice

"Good fun" "we hope it goes on tonight" etc.

If these iPod-owning, booze drinking 17-year old dimwits have become the monsters they apparently are because they've been 'treated like trash' in the past, then let me say this: I hope they'll get a lot more of that treatment, preferably behind bars, for a very long time.
Un-f*cking-believable, what a mindless, selfish looters. :help:

:stupid:

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 04:22 AM
Well, aren't you just a wonderful person.


Uh. Where did I say that?


That's simply not true. I have no idea where you're pulling that from. They might give you time to get a feel for the occupation, but you'll be thrown in the deep end soon enough. The whole problem is that there just aren't enough unskilled jobs to go around and it doesn't make me a Luddite for saying it. Quite the opposite, we have to give everyone more important jobs - but first they have to be able to do them.


Uh, yes. What is your point exactly? Not everyone are entrepreneurs or have good social skills to network their way in. People just aren't built that ambitious.


The answer for this one is obvious right? Government. You know, the same institute that pays for the roadworks, the Olympics, etc.


I think all of those fall under the statistic of "keeping them alive." Nice try though.


You've discovered the unquenchable low-skill job creation magical fountain then?
Uh, great arguments here. Uh, firstly, no-one is entitled to a job. Everyone is entitled to earn a job. It's called freedom. Secondly, anyone can choose to be an entrepreneur or make up excuses as to why they can't. You can have all the training and skills in the world and end up on the streets. You can grow up on the streets and retire a millionaire.

And uh, you still haven't answered how the government is suppose to fund free university education. In case you hadn't noticed they're already running a deficit equivalent to over 10% of GDP. Or maybe you've found the money-making magical fountain.

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 04:30 AM
Jimnik the Thatcherite, course it's not the government's fault :haha:
She may be Britain's greatest PM but I'm certainly not a "Thatcherite". To me she's a more moderate left-wing liberal than the rest of them, especially the Labour pigs.

Don't worry. Ed Miliband and Arthur Scargill will put things right. :haha:

@Sweet Cleopatra
08-10-2011, 04:37 AM
She may be Britain's greatest PM but I'm certainly not a "Thatcherite". To me she's a more moderate left-wing liberal than the rest of them, especially the Labour pigs.

Don't worry. Ed Miliband and Arthur Scargill will put things right. :haha:

Tatcher is a moderate left wing liberal? :rolleyes:

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 04:38 AM
The concept of something being too valuable to put some amount of money as it's equivalent is new to you? If I say that you can't put a price on human life will you find that sweet too?
In an ideal world only but not in this life.

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 04:45 AM
Tatcher is a moderate left wing liberal? :rolleyes:
I'm a libertarian. Even Thatcher would never consider cutting social services and reducing taxes to fair levels like Hong Kong and Switzerland. Plus, she backed the Marxist Mugabe revolution in Rhodesia. She was against the union of East and West Germany. She was anti-EU, hence anti free movement and trade across Europe.

There are tons of issues where she was too liberal/conservative.

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 04:48 AM
Don't think that's true at all. The most successful people I know didn't go to university, or dropped out in their first year. If you're hard-working you're more likely to succeed either way.
Exactly.

Chip_s_m
08-10-2011, 05:14 AM
I'm a libertarian. Even Thatcher would never consider cutting social services and reducing taxes to fair levels like Hong Kong and Switzerland. Plus, she backed the Marxist Mugabe revolution in Rhodesia. She was against the union of East and West Germany. She was anti-EU, hence anti free movement and trade across Europe.

There are tons of issues where she was too liberal/conservative.

Libertarianism :cool:

Libertarians in the US are frequently perplexed that libertarians in Europe tend to support the EU. Sure, the free trade and movement is great (and the only thing the EU is good for imo), but aren't you guys bothered that local sovereignty is upended by a faraway centralized power? Do you think this conflicts with federalism and limited government? It seems to me that European libertarians are banking on the idea that the EU won't ever try to further centralize power beyond free trade/movement, which of course it already has.

I'm interested on your thoughts, as I too am a libertarian, although libertarianism in the US has had a very different history than the strains in Europe, including England, so I'm not surprised that we differ on this.

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 05:41 AM
Libertarianism :cool:

Libertarians in the US are frequently perplexed that libertarians in Europe tend to support the EU. Sure, the free trade and movement is great (and the only thing the EU is good for imo), but aren't you guys bothered that local sovereignty is upended by a faraway centralized power? Do you think this conflicts with federalism and limited government? It seems to me that European libertarians are banking on the idea that the EU won't ever try to further centralize power beyond free trade/movement, which of course it already has.

I'm interested on your thoughts, as I too am a libertarian, although libertarianism in the US has had a very different history than the strains in Europe, including England, so I'm not surprised that we differ on this.
Indeed, the EU is one of the few issues where I disagree with most libertarians (of which there are very few in Europe). Yes it's undemocratic, bureaucratic, corrupt and takes power away from local governments. Far from ideal but the positives outweigh the negatives. People can freely move across borders (often without a passport) and pursue work and prosperity wherever the opportunity presents. IMO it's had a net increase in individual freedom, contrary to popular opinion.

No two people will agree on every political issue.

Action Jackson
08-10-2011, 05:51 AM
Too much Thatcher in that post for my liking.

The socially deprived areas are the ones with the riots, because their livelihood is getting shit on by this pathetic government taking away their public services.

Look at the student protest in November. They rioted, because the tuition fees were trebled and one of the parties in the coalition, who were pro-education, went back on their pledges. They LIED.

I'm sorry but I won't have anyone outside this country trying to make out our government are blameless in this.

People don't riot unless there's a reason to.

13 years under previous administration and the worst shit we got was BNP-exploited racial disturbances in Bradford and such places.

What's going to happen afterwards, the same areas will still be deprived and the institutionalised racism won't change. Of course people don't riot for the sake of it, you know it's bad when the pic below sums up a lot of the people who are there for the ride.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpopv5bIsu1qewacoo1_500.jpg

Nole fan
08-10-2011, 06:02 AM
Started as a peaceful protest after police shot a black youth.

Turned into this mindless violence.

It always happens this way... Peaceful demonstration gets violent after a minority of brainless delinquents take advantage of it to create chaos with destruction, theft and pillaging.

This actually resembles the riots of 76 and 81, though at least back then they had a legitimate motiv.

Nole fan
08-10-2011, 06:27 AM
Absolutely great post, many interesting things you point out about our/next generation.
In Spain i think its actually worse. People here take things for granted. I think its the first country of Europe in piracy... Music, movies, anything. Forget about author copyright, they basically think everything should be free. We now even have a new breed of youngsters branded as NiNi, which stands for Ni estudio, Ni trabajo (I don't study, neither do i work). This is the first time in modern history that our children will have it worse than their parents. And guess what? After the bubble we've been immersed for the last two decades, i dont see anyone ready to accept the lost of privileges anytime soon.

Well... I agree partially, as basically, I indeed think there's NO excuse whatsoever for people starting to act like a bunch of baboons like they do.
However...



... yes, folks who keep on being treated like trash, are going to end up acting like trash, there's surely some truth in that.

That said: what I've seen in my papers, and on the vids, is basically well-nourished, well-dressed individuals. They've been reported to summon their associates to rioting by using their mobile phones and facebook - which means they don't actually own the most primitive kind of mobile phones but occasionally even stuff like blackberry's and iPhones -gadgets which I, and I'm sure many other civilized people too, think are TOO EXPENSIVE, despite our so-called well-payed jobs.

So, 'treated like trash'? Certainly, in some cases, but I can't help that there is also a very greedy mindset like 'we have the right to own everything, right here and right now' going on, imho stimulated by the genuinely fucked up-society in which we live where it's all about what you *own* rather than who you are, and wherein a complete generation has learnt to live on loans and in depts and considers such as perfectly normal.

As usual... there are two sides to the story, and neither black or white readings of it is entirely true or false.

Nole fan
08-10-2011, 06:54 AM
That's a big problem, welfare is good for those who got fired and cannot find a new job to support their families but it is slowly turning into a way of life for many, why would they work if the government supports them? those chavettes who get pregnant just to get more benefits are a big case of this.

This.
And not only that. I know so many people, middle class thirty-somethings, who declare themselves unemployed so they can get paid by the government while at the same time having an undeclared employment. Hey, my exboyfriend is over thirty and he has never ever declared his work! But of course he still has access to free medical care and education.

Garson007
08-10-2011, 08:05 AM
If it's such an attractive investment then why does the government have to throw money at it? Wouldn't investors be lining up to support such a wonderful venture?
I don't even... It's a social investment. Investment for the country by the government. By putting money into educating people you give them a better platform from which to create more wealth, thereby leading to a higher GDP with more tax profits in the coffers. It's a win/win situation.

and instead they've wasted 3 years of their life and $25-30K for no discernible gain.
That is just not true. Graduates are automatically in a better position than those with no qualification; if you think it's hard to get a job while holding a degree, then try getting a job without one. One way or the other, a degree puts you in a position of higher knowledge and critical thinking and as such should be on any priority list.

Well, you seem to be someone else that does not seem to realise that educations are not just handed out. You say teens have nothing to do. I suppose homework and some educational reading would not be ''something to do'' in your book. You seem to think the government should hand out a ready-made education, but don't seem to realize an education needs some work on the students' part.
Huh? I never said you didn't have to put in the necessary work. The tertiary education institutes have every right to deny you access if you fail to meet their standards. I don't see how this is part of the discussion at all. You must be trolling.

Saying that teens have nothing to do, seems like you also fall into that entitlement trap, where eventually teens come to think that someone else should provide ''something to do.''
We employ the people in government to invest into the country and part of that is job creation. It is not so much entitlement, than for the advancement of civilization.

Beacause unemployment is going to rise further, as will social unrest as the system goes to hell in a handbascket (with us inside)? Just putting that out there for comment.
Indeed. There is no way but down for employment opportunities. Hence the reason why we have to implement the social measures today for that eventual future - one of those things will be to make sure that everyone is as educated as they want to be.

Another example of a mindset that expects the government to not just give it things, but to plan ahead for it.
It is one of their many reasons for existence. :shrug: If the government can't plan ahead towards the future of the country then that's a huge failure. It's that same mentality of "only my term is important" that has caused the current USA debt shit.

And uh, you still haven't answered how the government is suppose to fund free university education. In case you hadn't noticed they're already running a deficit equivalent to over 10% of GDP. Or maybe you've found the money-making magical fountain.
Education should be on top of priority lists, so yes there is money for it - other less important things might have to take the side-line while the long term investment takes place.

Uh, great arguments here. Uh, firstly, no-one is entitled to a job. Everyone is entitled to earn a job. It's called freedom. Secondly, anyone can choose to be an entrepreneur or make up excuses as to why they can't. You can have all the training and skills in the world and end up on the streets. You can grow up on the streets and retire a millionaire.
I never said otherwise. The government can however play the role of facilitator. Something you libertarians will never understand.

I'm a libertarian. [...] reducing taxes to fair levels like Hong Kong and Switzerland.
A libertarian who thinks something is unfair, oh the irony.

Castafiore
08-10-2011, 08:53 AM
It's very hard from the outside to say what's going on in their minds when they're rioting.

My guess is that it's a lot of frustration coming through. Yes, they're not rioting for food and basic needs but at the moment, they're stealing luxury items. Yes, it looks disgusting.
However, many generations have grown up with a dream: get a job that pays well, start a family, buy a house with a garden and a fence, get a pet, buy a car (and more recently: buy the latest smartphone...)

In the current economic climate, with budget measures that affect the lower and the middle class really badly and when you learn that owning your own house will be next to impossible for many, that the current generation will have a much tougher road ahead than their parents....you're cultivating frustration.


It's not an excuse for violence of course but I find reactions like "get an education, get off social welfare, get a job" a bit easy.

Nole fan
08-10-2011, 09:15 AM
It's very hard from the outside to say what's going on in their minds when they're rioting.

My guess is that it's a lot of frustration coming through. Yes, they're not rioting for food and basic needs but at the moment, they're stealing luxury items. Yes, it looks disgusting.
However, many generations have grown up with a dream: get a job that pays well, start a family, buy a house with a garden and a fence, get a pet, buy a car (and more recently: buy the latest smartphone...)

In the current economic climate, with budget measures that affect the lower and the middle class really badly and when you learn that owning your own house will be next to impossible for many, that the current generation will have a much tougher road ahead than their parents....you're cultivating frustration.


It's not an excuse for violence of course but I find reactions like "get an education, get off social welfare, get a job" a bit easy.

Well put. But still not a valid excuse for destructive rioting. Hey its the same for us and i dont go out there burning and looting stores...

CooCooCachoo
08-10-2011, 09:21 AM
Too much Thatcher in that post for my liking.

The socially deprived areas are the ones with the riots, because their livelihood is getting shit on by this pathetic government taking away their public services.

Look at the student protest in November. They rioted, because the tuition fees were trebled and one of the parties in the coalition, who were pro-education, went back on their pledges. They LIED.

I'm sorry but I won't have anyone outside this country trying to make out our government are blameless in this.

People don't riot unless there's a reason to.

13 years under previous administration and the worst shit we got was BNP-exploited racial disturbances in Bradford and such places.

As much as I want to believe that the majority of participants in these riots are motivated by unemployment, a lack of opportunities, and a perception of government antagonism - all of which would serve an explanatory, albeit not justificatory, function - the footage I have seen just does not support this reading of the events. Whenever youth are being interviewed, they prove hopelessly unable to articulate their reasoning, beyond "it's the government's fault" (in one case: "we're drinking at 9 in the morning and it's the government's fault") and "we're out to get the rich people". While riots are always destructive in character, these actions can have an empowering or emancipatory effect only if rioters gave their actions due consideration; without a proper rationale, the riots amount to little more than mindless bandwagoning and heedless thuggery. Much of what is going on reeks more like unabashed opportunism than the actual voicing of grievances, if you ask me.

To be sure, there is an underlying social problem that politicians rapidly need to come to terms with. Having lived in the UK for a year now, the class divide is blatant and palpable. But while these riots should most certainly serve as a catalyst to government action concerning this deeper problem, they should not be justified in such terms.

Castafiore
08-10-2011, 09:36 AM
. But still not a valid excuse for destructive rioting. Hey its the same for us and i dont go out there burning and looting stores...
I already mentioned that being frustrated does not make a valid excuse for violence. But saying that it's not an excuse does not explain why some feel it is a valid excuse and suggesting that they're yobs and that they should "get a grip" doesn't quite cover it.

I wouldn't know of it's the same for "us". Personally, I never had to struggle that hard.

rhinooooo
08-10-2011, 10:55 AM
As much as I want to believe that the majority of participants in these riots are motivated by unemployment, a lack of opportunities, and a perception of government antagonism - all of which would serve an explanatory, albeit not justificatory, function - the footage I have seen just does not support this reading of the events. Whenever youth are being interviewed, they prove hopelessly unable to articulate their reasoning, beyond "it's the government's fault" (in one case: "we're drinking at 9 in the morning and it's the government's fault") and "we're out to get the rich people". While riots are always destructive in character, these actions can have an empowering or emancipatory effect only if rioters gave their actions due consideration; without a proper rationale, the riots amount to little more than mindless bandwagoning and heedless thuggery. Much of what is going on reeks more like unabashed opportunism than the actual voicing of grievances, if you ask me.

To be sure, there is an underlying social problem that politicians rapidly need to come to terms with. Having lived in the UK for a year now, the class divide is blatant and palpable. But while these riots should most certainly serve as a catalyst to government action concerning this deeper problem, they should not be justified in such terms.


This society does not teach people, especially the working/underclass to articulate themselves, and especially to articulate anger. This is a massive issue that is overlooked. From birth to death you're bombarded with doing nothing more than obeying and conforming - listen to your parents, teachers, bosses, governments, police etc. You combine that with a host of false ideals/dreams/aspirations in terms of what a 'successful' person is, in terms of the materialist bullshit that people should be striving for, all of its is really a bunch of conditioning - and when people realise that they can't live up to that or they can't quite understand this world... it's a natural inclination to feel rage/anger. People struggle to understand and express the way they feel. Struggle to understand the society and environment they live in. We don't encourage that. We don't encourage rational/logical debates/discussions. We don't encourage people to think for themselves, or to question authority and institutions. We don't tell people that it's okay to feel anger, and then how they can channel it positively. We tell them to do nothing more than obey and conform, to what is an unjust and broken way of living.

So yeah, this is fucking stupid rioting. And the people doing it are idiots. But that's a product of our society. Ignorance is encouraged. Young, poor and dumb.

And I'll say that the people who are similarly interested in making black/white judgments on this issue - just stating that there is nothing to be understood from this, that these are just thugs, let's not engage with the issue - these people are just as ignorant as the rioters, and they have been brainwashed just the same to conform to a society that tells you to not dig a little deeper, just to make the rash generalisations.

Nole fan
08-10-2011, 10:55 AM
I already mentioned that being frustrated does not make a valid excuse for violence. But saying that it's not an excuse does not explain why some feel it is a valid excuse and suggesting that they're yobs and that they should "get a grip" doesn't quite cover it.

I wouldn't know of it's the same for "us". Personally, I never had to struggle that hard.

Well, all the things you pointed out, not being able to own a house, unpredictable future or facing unemployment is something my generation is exposed to, including me. Its not even certain anymore that we will be able to collect our pensions or even give our children a future.
People have been talking a lot here about the educational system. What about parents? I believe the education and values you receive from your parents is what builds you up as a person, not what you learn at school. Family desintegration is in my opinion the catalyst of many problems with youth today.

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 11:46 AM
She may be Britain's greatest PM but I'm certainly not a "Thatcherite". To me she's a more moderate left-wing liberal than the rest of them, especially the Labour pigs.

Don't worry. Ed Miliband and Arthur Scargill will put things right. :haha:

:sick:

The greatest PM was actually from the Tories though.

Gagsquet
08-10-2011, 12:16 PM
Stupid

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQoCbhcdN5qMd0UvWc638l4Uwv6Ge9hQ z0Y26JC7YdI5MZVUSnBLw

Action Jackson
08-10-2011, 12:21 PM
This society does not teach people, especially the working/underclass to articulate themselves, and especially to articulate anger. This is a massive issue that is overlooked. From birth to death you're bombarded with doing nothing more than obeying and conforming - listen to your parents, teachers, bosses, governments, police etc. You combine that with a host of false ideals/dreams/aspirations in terms of what a 'successful' person is, in terms of the materialist bullshit that people should be striving for, all of its is really a bunch of conditioning - and when people realise that they can't live up to that or they can't quite understand this world... it's a natural inclination to feel rage/anger. People struggle to understand and express the way they feel. Struggle to understand the society and environment they live in. We don't encourage that. We don't encourage rational/logical debates/discussions. We don't encourage people to think for themselves, or to question authority and institutions. We don't tell people that it's okay to feel anger, and then how they can channel it positively. We tell them to do nothing more than obey and conform, to what is an unjust and broken way of living.

So yeah, this is fucking stupid rioting. And the people doing it are idiots. But that's a product of our society. Ignorance is encouraged. Young, poor and dumb.

And I'll say that the people who are similarly interested in making black/white judgments on this issue - just stating that there is nothing to be understood from this, that these are just thugs, let's not engage with the issue - these people are just as ignorant as the rioters, and they have been brainwashed just the same to conform to a society that tells you to not dig a little deeper, just to make the rash generalisations.

Well said.

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 12:21 PM
The Sun newspaper calling people morons, heard it all now.

EKSTREMISTA
08-10-2011, 12:43 PM
The Rioting Underclass: Product of a Diseased Culture

Pressure from above, pressure from below; It’s about eviscerating the middle class by manipulating them to demand their own enslavement

Paul Joseph Watson
Tuesday, August 9, 2011

The riots that have gripped London and swept other major cities in the UK are the product of a diseased culture that leads to violence and mayhem which ultimately only serves to benefit the ruling elite in its bid to eviscerate the middle class by manipulating them to demand their own enslavement.
Firstly, anyone who truly believes that the rioters are burning and looting to protest any legitimate grievances, at least ones that they are consciously aware of, needs their head examining.
A BBC video clip features audio of a group of drunk teenage girls describing how fun it is to engage in wanton violence and thieving. In a transparent and moronic attempt to justify their actions, the girls begin babbling about “the government….conservatives or whatever….I don’t know,” before responding to a question about why they are attacking local residents of their own community by snorting, “It’s the rich people, the people that have got businesses and that’s why all of this happened because of rich people.”
Those “rich people” include a local family-owned furniture store in Croydon that survived two world wars yet has now been burned to the ground, a charity shop that raises revenue for the elderly, and a cat rescue center based in Enfield, amongst scores of other homes, charities and small businesses owned by innocent and far from “rich” people.
To claim that these disaffected youths are the vanguard of some organic revolutionary movement is completely asinine. If this is a genuine backlash against the establishment, why are the mobs not congregating around Downing Street, the Houses of Parliament or Buckingham Palace, the real culprits of Britain’s economic degradation. Why instead are they busy filling trolleys full of tennis shoes, mobile phones, along with plentiful supplies of booze and cigarettes from tiny local off-licenses?
The rioters are composed predominantly of nihilistic, aggressive, vapid and intellectually castrated youths that have come to represent the very term “broken Britain”.
This is like a bad zombie movie – it’s the rise of the idiots. The plague started in Tottenham. It rapidly spread to other areas of London, and soon the hordes were rampaging around major cities nationwide. But these zombies weren’t scavenging for brains, they were in search of JD Sports chav-wear, 40 inch TVs and iPads. The police stood by and watched. The petrified public welcomed troops on the streets, curfews, more surveillance and control with open arms. Thanks a lot, idiots.
The cause of this mayhem cannot be traced to any legitimate political grievance, it is almost entirely the product of a diseased culture, fostered by multinational corporations and the celebrity-obsessed entertainment industry, that brainwashes young people to aspire to lifestyles they can never possibly attain.
The social decline of young people becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as a result of constant media fascination with demonizing youngsters and presenting them with a putrid diet of “heroes,” vacuous footballers and drug-addled musicians, whose behavior makes impressionable kids think that life revolves around being constantly trashed, engaging in amoral sexual conquests and proving their manhood by pointless displays of animal-like aggression.
MTV-manufactured rap icons, movies and video games have trained an entire generation of disadvantaged kids to grow up as wannabe gangsters, marauding around town with their jeans half-way down their thighs in huge mobs intimidating the public. Rampant consumerism is also to blame. Deprived kids on benefits cannot afford the iPods and laptops they are told they must own to be accepted by their peers, so an opportunity like this cannot be wasted. As the Guardian reports today, “Where we used to be defined by what we did, now we are defined by what we buy. These big stores are in the business of tempting [the consumer] and then suddenly these people find they can just walk into the shop and have it all.”
This army of Clockwork Orange-style droogs are then played off against the general public who, suitably terrified by the media’s incessant hyping of the problem, openly welcome troops on the streets, more surveillance, curfews and whatever else is necessary ‘just to keep us safe’.
But if the last few nights have proven nothing else, they have proven that the police and the authorities cannot keep us safe. Almost every eyewitness who described the violence and looting said the police sat back and did nothing.
The establishment only benefits from allowing the chaos to spread because the call from the public for a more brutal response gets louder and louder. Now Parliament has been recalled for one day to ensure the opportunity to pass more draconian legislation that will only impact law-abiding people is not passed up.
This is how the middle class is habitually manipulated to support the very police state that is ultimately used to oppress the middle class itself. It’s also a perfect example of pressure from below – the cultural cultivation of an underclass of yobs who are let loose by the system to generate the crisis it needs to clamp down with an iron fist.
We all need to wake up and realize we are being played off against each other by an establishment that craves the kind of pointless rioting we have seen over the last three nights, because it creates the perfect pretext for the establishment to entrench and expand its power in the name of safety and security.

Blackbriar
08-10-2011, 01:24 PM
this must what they call the "Swingin' London"

Orka_n
08-10-2011, 01:45 PM
More like exponentially.You're right.

buddyholly
08-10-2011, 01:46 PM
13 years of Labour, minor gripes, no major dissatisfaction. One year of Tory rule and there's been two major escalations of violence (the students did it in November)

Basically Tories = riots.

Do you think the aimless, rioting thugs just got that way overnight? From what you say it is much more reasonable to conclude that these rioting thugs are the product of 13 years of Labour. Labour is what they have known all their lives, so it is only fair to conclude they are what they are, because of Labour. Your argument definitely tripped itself up when you concluded that the present situation is the result of just one year.

Wasn't Labour kicked out mainly because the voters were sick of MP's acting like they were entitled to loot the public's money? That attitude has now trickled down.

abraxas21
08-10-2011, 04:11 PM
Absolutely great post, many interesting things you point out about our/next generation.
In Spain i think its actually worse. People here take things for granted. I think its the first country of Europe in piracy... Music, movies, anything. Forget about author copyright, they basically think everything should be free. We now even have a new breed of youngsters branded as NiNi, which stands for Ni estudio, Ni trabajo (I don't study, neither do i work). This is the first time in modern history that our children will have it worse than their parents. And guess what? After the bubble we've been immersed for the last two decades, i dont see anyone ready to accept the lost of privileges anytime soon.

ninja is better...no income, no job, no assests

still, isnt there a huge unemployment crisis in spain? i doubt the indignados in barcelona are just hanging downtown simply coz they're lazy bastards who want everthing for free

Mjau!
08-10-2011, 04:29 PM
For some reason, I doubt that these people are rioting because gov'ment wouldn't pay for their university studies. I also doubt that "free" education at all levels would result in everyone getting a nice education and a nice job. Education should be "free" (tax funded) but it's not like it would eradicate the lower class of society. It wouldn't really do that much to the percentage of people living on welfare. There would still be underachievers and it's not like there's an endless demand for jobs requiring a higher education. A significant lower class of welfare recipients is unavoidable whether the "left" or the "right" is in charge. It's built in to the system.

Mjau!
08-10-2011, 04:31 PM
Do you think the aimless, rioting thugs just got that way overnight? From what you say it is much more reasonable to conclude that these rioting thugs are the product of 13 years of Labour. Labour is what they have known all their lives, so it is only fair to conclude they are what they are, because of Labour. Your argument definitely tripped itself up when you concluded that the present situation is the result of just one year.

Wasn't Labour kicked out mainly because the voters were sick of MP's acting like they were entitled to loot the public's money? That attitude has now trickled down.

You don't think they went from well-adjusted members of society to deprived and desperate in a year because the Tories raised tuition fees? :eek:

buddyholly
08-10-2011, 05:02 PM
You don't think they went from well-adjusted members of society to deprived and desperate in a year because the Tories raised tuition fees? :eek:

Absolutely. Last year at this time they were all in university libraries studying to get ahead and become newspaper editors.

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 05:45 PM
Education should be on top of priority lists, so yes there is money for it - other less important things might have to take the side-line while the long term investment takes place.


I never said otherwise. The government can however play the role of facilitator. Something you libertarians will never understand.


A libertarian who thinks something is unfair, oh the irony.
Only thing I agree with. The rest isn't even worth replying to.

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 05:48 PM
:sick:

The greatest PM was actually from the Tories though.
I assume you're referring to Churchill. I was only talking about post-WW2 PMs.

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 05:56 PM
I actually find it sick that posts here are making excuses for the rioters. If anyone was beaten up or burgled, they wouldn't sit down and discuss anger issues with the perpetrator. They would simply expect the police to lock them up.

There's never a rational explanation for destroying innocent lives. Some people simply deserve to be caged like animals.

buddyholly
08-10-2011, 07:23 PM
I actually find it sick that posts here are making excuses for the rioters.

Getting stuff for free and having fun destroying other people's stuff. Who could resist?

Garson007
08-10-2011, 07:50 PM
I actually find it sick that posts here are making excuses for the rioters.
Since when is discussion about the underlying faults behind it, "excuses"? What they are doing is inexcusable. :wavey:

The rest isn't even worth replying to... Seriously though, some people just deserve to be caged? Lol. :worship:

Pfloyd
08-10-2011, 08:15 PM
"Riots: that's what happens when the ruling class destroys working-class hopes, jobs and communities. Looting: that's what happens when society rubs consumerism in people's faces but denies them the wherewithal to share in it. And if the labour movement wants people to take part in more constructive forms of protest, then it needs to organise some."

Pfloyd
08-10-2011, 08:34 PM
Interesting discussion:

PF35okWtmEs

Jimnik
08-10-2011, 08:58 PM
Since when is discussion about the underlying faults behind it, "excuses"? What they are doing is inexcusable. :wavey:

The rest isn't even worth replying to... Seriously though, some people just deserve to be caged? Lol. :worship:
You know a debate isn't won by finding the most clever/subtle way to insult the opposition. I guess you've run out of arguments excuses. :wavey:

rocketassist
08-10-2011, 09:01 PM
Do you think the aimless, rioting thugs just got that way overnight? From what you say it is much more reasonable to conclude that these rioting thugs are the product of 13 years of Labour. Labour is what they have known all their lives, so it is only fair to conclude they are what they are, because of Labour. Your argument definitely tripped itself up when you concluded that the present situation is the result of just one year.

Wasn't Labour kicked out mainly because the voters were sick of MP's acting like they were entitled to loot the public's money? That attitude has now trickled down.

People got bored, they didn't realise they had it so good.

Labour's only real mistake was the Iraq war and the Bush arsekissing, but then again you being this Yank nationalist you'd say that was a good thing.

buddyholly
08-10-2011, 09:18 PM
but then again you being this Yank nationalist you'd say that was a good thing.

What does that even mean?

But anyway, I'm from County Down.

And happy about the ''from'' right now.

buddyholly
08-10-2011, 09:30 PM
People got bored, they didn't realise they had it so good.



Is this some kind of joke? It certainly doesn't make sense.

Garson007
08-10-2011, 09:32 PM
You know a debate isn't won by finding the most clever/subtle way to insult the opposition. I guess you've run out of arguments excuses. :wavey:
http://rlv.zcache.com/awesome_smiley_photo_sculpture_photosculpture-p153359710604909267tro3_125.jpg

tangerine_dream
08-10-2011, 10:12 PM
Maybe it's because I'm way across the pond from all this but I'm finding it difficult to take the London riots seriously. I mean, where's the revolution? I'm watching the TV news and all I see are these laughing yutes looting stores and skipping away from the useless police who aren't even allowed to use real bullets. LOL, come on now. Put the toy gun down and let's be reasonable. These kiddie riots wouldn't have lasted one hour in the US.

Even Iran is laughing at them.

http://www.tehrantimes.com/index.php/politics/1395-iran-advises-uk-not-to-use-violence-against-protesters-
Iran advises UK not to use violence against protesters

TEHRAN - Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesperson Ramin Mehmanparast on Tuesday advised the British government to exercise self-restraint and refrain from using violence against protesters.

According to Reuters, the violence erupted late on Saturday in London’s northern Tottenham district when a peaceful protest over the police shooting of Mark Duggan, a black man, two days earlier was followed by outbreaks of looting and arson.

A number of protesters have also been arrested.

Mehmanparast called on the British government to refrain from taking any violent action when dealing with protesters and to take their demands into consideration.

He also expressed hope that the independent human rights organizations would launch an investigation into the shooting death of Duggan to aid efforts to defend individual freedom and civic rights.

--Majlis committee condemns fatal shooting of Duggan

In addition, the Human Rights Committee of the Iranian Majlis has condemned the killing of Duggan and called on the British government to end the “brutal” suppression of the protesters.

MP Mohammad-Karim Abedi, the committee deputy chairperson, told the Fars news agency on Tuesday, “The Majlis, as the true representative of the Iranian nation, supports the rights of the British people and regards itself as obliged to defend the rights of the British protesters.”

buddyholly
08-10-2011, 10:37 PM
Yes, but that is just for Iranian consumption, in their necessary efforts to brainwash their own people.

fast_clay
08-10-2011, 10:55 PM
They should bring the cost down then. Our joke of a government trebled the fees for degrees (the party propping up the Tories were proposing free education but then turned their backs on this policy when they jumped into bed)

its true man, bang on... the easiest way to disarm a population is to make education accessible...

after a good education is made available, there is no excuse...

beyond that only healthcare matters, and (in my opinion at least) it is a distant 2nd to education...

give the population the tools and they'll work it out...

it's not fucking rocket science people...

Nole fan
08-11-2011, 01:26 AM
ninja is better...no income, no job, no assests

still, isnt there a huge unemployment crisis in spain? i doubt the indignados in barcelona are just hanging downtown simply coz they're lazy bastards who want everthing for free

I'm not comparing the so called Spanish revolution or The Indignados with the riots in England... Different things. But the youth are the same everywhere.

kinski76
08-11-2011, 01:59 AM
This society does not teach people, especially the working/underclass to articulate themselves, and especially to articulate anger. This is a massive issue that is overlooked. From birth to death you're bombarded with doing nothing more than obeying and conforming - listen to your parents, teachers, bosses, governments, police etc. You combine that with a host of false ideals/dreams/aspirations in terms of what a 'successful' person is, in terms of the materialist bullshit that people should be striving for, all of its is really a bunch of conditioning - and when people realise that they can't live up to that or they can't quite understand this world... it's a natural inclination to feel rage/anger. People struggle to understand and express the way they feel. Struggle to understand the society and environment they live in. We don't encourage that. We don't encourage rational/logical debates/discussions. We don't encourage people to think for themselves, or to question authority and institutions. We don't tell people that it's okay to feel anger, and then how they can channel it positively. We tell them to do nothing more than obey and conform, to what is an unjust and broken way of living.

So yeah, this is fucking stupid rioting. And the people doing it are idiots. But that's a product of our society. Ignorance is encouraged. Young, poor and dumb.

And I'll say that the people who are similarly interested in making black/white judgments on this issue - just stating that there is nothing to be understood from this, that these are just thugs, let's not engage with the issue - these people are just as ignorant as the rioters, and they have been brainwashed just the same to conform to a society that tells you to not dig a little deeper, just to make the rash generalisations.

Indeed. You bring up some interesting points in regards to conformity and groupthink. Sweeping generalizations of the "they're all mindless thugs"-variety are all too convenient. There's a reason why these riots have been spreading like wildfires. People don't suddenly decide to take part in riots because it's a welcome break from their everyday routine. Furthermore, the inclination towards searching for underlying reasons rather than jumping to knee-jerk " let's round 'em up and shoot 'em"-responses should be encouraged, not frowned upon. I can't believe some people here suggest otherwise. Looking beyond the surface to try and understand the general mindset of the individuals involved does NOT mean you condone the actions of said individuals or are trying to find excuses for them.

I've been trying to apply reason to what initially seemed like a random display of aimless aggression, and recognizing it at least partly as a problem of articulation and cultural conditioning makes perfect sense to me. If at some point your basic human education failed and you never fully acquired the tools (namely language and social skills) to express yourselves in appropriate ways, you respond by acting out almost reflexively, mindlessly. A sense of personal responsibility and consideration for others aren't inherent traits, but products of socialization.

Black Adam
08-11-2011, 08:33 AM
Getting stuff for free and having fun destroying other people's stuff. Who could resist?
The Bankers and Government have been doing that for a while.

buddyholly
08-11-2011, 12:59 PM
The Bankers and Government have been doing that for a while.

I assume you are talking about Labour here.

EKSTREMISTA
08-11-2011, 04:03 PM
London Riots 2011: Libya Calls for Cameron to Step Down

August 10, 2011 2:43 PM EDT

The spiraling riots in Britain have elicited mocking and derisory comments from countries which are usually themselves the target of criticism from Western powers like the UK.

Moammar Gadhafi’s regime in Libya – perhaps only half-jokingly -- called for British Prime Minister David Cameron to step down, asserting that he has "lost all legitimacy" -- a charge often leveled at Gadhafi -- because of the riots.
Cameron and his government must leave after the popular uprising against them and the violent repression of peaceful demonstrations by police," the state news agency Jana quoted Deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Kaaim as saying.

"Cameron and his government have lost all legitimacy. These demonstrations show that the British people reject this government which is trying to impose itself through force."

Kaaim even asked that the “United Nations Security Council and the international community to not stay with its arms crossed in the face of the flagrant violation of the rights of the British people."

:worship:

tangerine_dream
08-11-2011, 06:51 PM
Heh.

THE NEW LONDON 2012 LOGO

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3061/yer86.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/3/yer86.png/)

barbadosan
08-11-2011, 06:59 PM
^^ haha - that's wickedly funny

Black Adam
08-11-2011, 11:04 PM
LOL
Exeter University student on London riots theft charges

A wealthy undergraduate from the University of Exeter has been accused of stealing from shops during the riots in London.
Laura Johnson, 19, has appeared before magistrates in Bexley on five counts of burglary.
Miss Johnson, who is reading English and Italian, is reported to be the daughter of a millionaire businessman from Orpington, south-east London.
She was released on bail, to return to court on 21 September.
A statement released by the University of Exeter said: "We can confirm that Laura Johnson is an undergraduate student at the University of Exeter.
"The university will await the outcome of the court case before deciding on whether to take any action."

buddyholly
08-11-2011, 11:40 PM
London Riots 2011: Libya Calls for Cameron to Step Down

August 10, 2011 2:43 PM EDT

The spiraling riots in Britain have elicited mocking and derisory comments from countries which are usually themselves the target of criticism from Western powers like the UK.

Moammar Gadhafi’s regime in Libya – perhaps only half-jokingly -- called for British Prime Minister David Cameron to step down, asserting that he has "lost all legitimacy" -- a charge often leveled at Gadhafi -- because of the riots.
Cameron and his government must leave after the popular uprising against them and the violent repression of peaceful demonstrations by police," the state news agency Jana quoted Deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Kaaim as saying.

"Cameron and his government have lost all legitimacy. These demonstrations show that the British people reject this government which is trying to impose itself through force."

Kaaim even asked that the “United Nations Security Council and the international community to not stay with its arms crossed in the face of the flagrant violation of the rights of the British people."

:worship:

Not surprising that you are applauding pure bullshit. It is all you know.

Black Adam
08-12-2011, 12:35 AM
Apparently:
CNN Presenter asks rioter: Why are you rioting?
Rioter answers: Free Mandela!!!!

rocketassist
08-12-2011, 12:43 AM
Libya have a point.

buddyholly
08-12-2011, 01:41 AM
Libya have a point.

At least ekstremista has the excuse of not being there. You don't.

What point are you talking about?

rocketassist
08-12-2011, 02:58 AM
At least ekstremista has the excuse of not being there. You don't.

What point are you talking about?

Libya have a point that if Gaddafi should go, why shouldn't the UK govt?

The West were all best buddies with Gaddafi until the people rebelled. Then it's 'he's a despot and he's got to go'

Where's the difference now? People unhappy with govt/power people protest/riot, same thing.

Lee
08-12-2011, 04:11 AM
Libya have a point that if Gaddafi should go, why shouldn't the UK govt?

The West were all best buddies with Gaddafi until the people rebelled. Then it's 'he's a despot and he's got to go'

Where's the difference now? People unhappy with govt/power people protest/riot, same thing.

The difference is the UK government was put there by the people who voted. And the people can vote this government out in the next election.

buddyholly
08-12-2011, 04:22 AM
Libya have a point that if Gaddafi should go, why shouldn't the UK govt?

The West were all best buddies with Gaddafi until the people rebelled. Then it's 'he's a despot and he's got to go'

Where's the difference now? People unhappy with govt/power people protest/riot, same thing.

The UK government was elected, that is the difference.

And equating a few hooligans with the voice of the people just shows how muddled you are.

Yup
08-12-2011, 06:58 AM
Libya have a point that if Gaddafi should go, why shouldn't the UK govt?

The West were all best buddies with Gaddafi until the people rebelled. Then it's 'he's a despot and he's got to go'

Where's the difference now? People unhappy with govt/power people protest/riot, same thing.

Protest and riot are not the same thing.

It made for a good laugh, comparing the former Libyan government to Britain's. :)

I'm sure the Libyan people would take Cameron with all his crap and flaws over Gaddafi any day.

Garson007
08-12-2011, 10:27 AM
Libya have a point that if Gaddafi should go, why shouldn't the UK govt?

The West were all best buddies with Gaddafi until the people rebelled. Then it's 'he's a despot and he's got to go'

Where's the difference now? People unhappy with govt/power people protest/riot, same thing.
Ignore the idiots that say that it's because he has been elected. It makes zero sense.

Instead, realise that the death count in Libya is thousands of times as large. While London has a few opportunistic looters, Libya has "freedom fighters". Civil war, etc. I find the idea that you're equating the London riots with the Libyan uprising very very distasteful.

buddyholly
08-12-2011, 01:26 PM
Ignore the idiots that say that it's because he has been elected. It makes zero sense.



With statements like that it is you who appears to be an idiot.

EKSTREMISTA
08-12-2011, 02:01 PM
What kind of punishment does Britain deserve?

12.08.2011

http://pravda-team.ru/eng/image/article/1/1/4/45114.jpeg

British Prime Minister Cameron has lost legitimacy as a result of the brutal suppression of peaceful demonstrators and should resign. These statements were made nearly simultaneously by the leading Iranian and Libyan politicians.

Deputy Head of the Libyan Ministry of Foreign Affairs Khalid Kaaim stressed that Cameron and his government have completely lost their legitimacy and should leave after the mass protests and violent police actions against the participants of peaceful demonstrations.

The Tripoli official also urged the UN Security Council and the international community to abandon the passive attitude in the face of egregious human rights violations in the UK. Not long before that the "passiveness" of the UN Security Council was condemned by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The Foreign Ministry of the Islamic Republic called on the British police to "exercise restraint". The Ministry spokesman Rahmin Mehmanparast said: "The British government should order police to stop violent confrontation with the people. The government must engage in a dialogue with the protesters and listen to their demands so that the situation returned to normal."

The Iranian Foreign Ministry in this regard demanded that the UK protects "civil liberties" and enables "an independent investigation by international human rights organizations" of all the circumstances of the death of the immigrant Mark Duggan, whose murder served as the detonator for the riots in British cities.

Print version Font Size Send to friend The assessments of the ongoing events in the UK made by Iran and Libya are nearly identical to the official reaction of the West to the opposition's actions in Libya and Syria.

London in February declared the ruling regime of Muammar Gaddafi in Libya illegitimate, because the latter dared to resist the attacks by the armed opposition groups, including Islamists.

Three months later, similar language appeared in the assessment of the actions of Bashar Assad's regime allied with Iran. At least, the British Foreign Secretary Haig was one of the first officials who said that as a result of the repression against its own population, Assad has lost legitimacy.

All these factors served as a justification for the start of military operations against Libya, and now Syria is under the same threat. "We cannot speculate on human rights in relation to the events in the UK", said Cameron.

But what do the British authorities do? Particular attention should be paid to the ways Cameron's regime uses to suppress the British revolution. In a hastily fashion the so-called courts, after only three days after the unrest, began to review cases of protesters facing severe criminal penalties.

Cameron himself had vowed that water cannons would be used against peaceful demonstrators. Is it possible to ignore such a blatant violation of human rights in one of the leading democratic countries?

Many in the Russian blogosphere feel sorry for the Brits who fell victims to their excessive tolerance. Earlier, Britain took liberty to harshly criticize Russia for violating human rights during counter-terrorist operation in the North Caucasus, as well as for the fact that Moscow does not enter into a dialogue with the "opposition."

The actions of the British prime minister and his henchmen from the police towards the protesters of color forced to mention racism. Especially as the police turn a blind eye to the actions of the Nazis from the so-called British "Defense League" that with the tacit approval of Cameron started the violent repression of the revolution.

Many have pointed out that TV channels have tried to present the information in such a way as to show that the rioters were predominantly Africans or Pakistanis. However, this is not the case. Various blogs display numerous photos of white people who came to protest in the streets along their black brothers against the actions of the authorities and the deterioration of the living conditions. Moreover, according to news agency JTA, the revolution has also affected the Jewish community in Britain. Its representatives, for example, in Tottenham were dispersed by mounted police when they came to protest against the racist and pro-Nazi activities.

However, for some people it would be very disadvantageous if the events in the UK looked like anything other than the "race riot."

British bloggers have reported that skinheads smashed a few shops belonging to Muslims. In this sense, the behavior of the British prime minister makes bloggers question whether he sympathizes with the British infamous Nazi Mosley.

The official London recognizes that the prisons are overcrowded by those who tried to protest against the blatant tyranny of the police. What right does the country that states that it is democratic have to deal with peaceful protesters in this way? There are children among the detainees. Has British democracy fallen as low as to fight its future, the younger generation?

There are those who defend Cameron. They say that there is no comparison between those in Libya and Syria and the scoundrels who dared raise their hand against one of the cradles of the world democracy.

Of course, there is no comparison. Suffice it to stress the humanistic aspirations of British protesters, who, in contrast to the Syrian and Libyan opposition, were not seen murdering police officers. Slanderous accusations of massive looting of shops by the opposition are spread by the media lured by the official London. There are statements of the opposition in the social networks according to which arson and looting are the work of provocateurs hired by the police and MI6.

They have one goal: to demonize and discredit the British revolution. At the very least, there is the presumption of innocence and indictments can be made only by the judicial authorities, but not newspaper people.

Even if some of the demonstrators take something from a supermarket - is it enough of a reason to conduct a punitive police operation? In some areas the revolutionary course of events and actions of the authorities interfered with the supply of food. People need something to eat. Is it any wonder that somewhere people are hungry and jump at food?

Now, after several months of civil war, no one would dare call the Libyan opposition "peaceful demonstrators". The same applies to the glorious successors of the "Arab revolution" in Syrian Hama, where the opposition quite democratically cut the heads of the "Assad's supporters" and set government buildings on fire.

The question arises: if the West supported such actions of the "peaceful demonstrators" by air strikes in Libya, what kind of punishment does Britain deserve?

Now, when the riots are dwindling down, many in London sighed quietly. Yet, how long will the peace last? After all, the event showed the weakness of the former "mistress of the seas" in the face of popular protests. And most importantly, can Great Britain and the West open their mouths in defense of "peaceful demonstrators" in Libya and Syria?

It is important to pay attention to the fact that at last Libya and Iran have united in their opposition to the UK. That in itself deserves attention since for a long time Qaddafi believed Iran to be one of his main enemies. Iran was not particularly respectful towards the "Libyan upstart" either. However, the aggressive actions of the West, including Britain, against Libya and Syria forced Tripoli and Tehran to reconcile their positions. Indeed, it is time for Iran and Libya to stop the long unnecessary strife. Apparently, they found the "Achilles heel" of the UK.

Sergei Balmasov
Pravda.Ru

Garson007
08-12-2011, 02:36 PM
With statements like that it is you who appears to be an idiot.
So because someone is democratically elected it makes the immune to coups, dissent or votes of no confidence? Please. The difference has got nothing to do with how the political power got there, but what they have done as well as the difference in uprising and looting. Gaddafi being the one with the blood of many on his hands.

Jimnik
08-12-2011, 06:27 PM
What kind of punishment does Britain deserve?

12.08.2011

http://pravda-team.ru/eng/image/article/1/1/4/45114.jpeg

British Prime Minister Cameron has lost legitimacy as a result of the brutal suppression of peaceful demonstrators and should resign. These statements were made nearly simultaneously by the leading Iranian and Libyan politicians.

Well if Iran and Libya say it, it must be true. Should ask Venezuala and North Korea while they're at it.

buddyholly
08-12-2011, 07:37 PM
So because someone is democratically elected it makes the immune to coups, dissent or votes of no confidence? Please. The difference has got nothing to do with how the political power got there, but what they have done as well as the difference in uprising and looting. Gaddafi being the one with the blood of many on his hands.

It should make it an elected government immune to coups. I guess it just follows that the likes of Gadaafi could never get elected in a democracy anyway. Certainly not twice. So the need to overthrow democratically elected governments other than in the voting booths is unlikely anyway.
Peaceful dissent and votes of no confidence are part of democracy, so they are acceptable.

Actually I no longer understand why you wrote, "Ignore the idiots who say it is because he has been elected.''

Were you talking about the British government, or Gadaafi being elected?
Were you talking about people who say the big difference between Cameron and Gadaafi is that Cameron was elected? If you are calling those people idiots, then I will stick to my original contention that you have made yourself look like an idiot.

Or maybe it has all been a misunderstanding and what you really meant was that if Cameron behaved like Gadaafi we would not have to consider it acceptable government just because he was elected democratically.

abraxas21
08-13-2011, 12:49 AM
I'm not comparing the so called Spanish revolution or The Indignados with the riots in England... Different things. But the youth are the same everywhere.

i know but your viewpoints still dont hold much water once we truly start to think about the situation. here are a couple of questions for you and others to ponder on

If this week's eruption is an expression of pure criminality and has nothing to do with police harassment or youth unemployment or rampant inequality or deepening economic crisis, why is it happening now and not a decade ago? The criminal classes, as the Victorians branded those at the margins of society, are always with us, after all. And if it has no connection with Britain's savage social divide and ghettoes of deprivation, why did it kick off in Haringey and not Henley?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/10/riots-reflect-society-run-greed-looting

Garson007
08-13-2011, 01:08 AM
Or maybe it has all been a misunderstanding and what you really meant was that if Cameron behaved like Gadaafi we would not have to consider it acceptable government just because he was elected democratically.
:yeah:

buddyholly
08-13-2011, 01:43 PM
When Charles ascends to the throne, it will be the final nail in the descent of England into a nation of louts and buffoons.

Garson007
08-13-2011, 03:33 PM
When Charles ascends to the throne, it will be the final nail in the descent of England into a nation of louts and buffoons.
I don't think he will. They'll either disband the monarchy or it will pass to William. Queen Elizabeth II has a good 10+ years left, and by that time Charles will be close to 80. We can just hope that William survives for long, Harry would be fucking terrible.

Sofonda Cox
08-13-2011, 09:18 PM
When Charles ascends to the throne, it will be the final nail in the descent of England into a nation of louts and buffoons.

Wrong. The monarchy has zero influence these days and is only there for the tourists.

Sofonda Cox
08-13-2011, 09:21 PM
What kind of punishment does Britain deserve?

12.08.2011

http://pravda-team.ru/eng/image/article/1/1/4/45114.jpeg

British Prime Minister Cameron has lost legitimacy as a result of the brutal suppression of peaceful demonstrators and should resign. These statements were made nearly simultaneously by the leading Iranian and Libyan politicians.

Deputy Head of the Libyan Ministry of Foreign Affairs Khalid Kaaim stressed that Cameron and his government have completely lost their legitimacy and should leave after the mass protests and violent police actions against the participants of peaceful demonstrations.

The Tripoli official also urged the UN Security Council and the international community to abandon the passive attitude in the face of egregious human rights violations in the UK. Not long before that the "passiveness" of the UN Security Council was condemned by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The Foreign Ministry of the Islamic Republic called on the British police to "exercise restraint". The Ministry spokesman Rahmin Mehmanparast said: "The British government should order police to stop violent confrontation with the people. The government must engage in a dialogue with the protesters and listen to their demands so that the situation returned to normal."

The Iranian Foreign Ministry in this regard demanded that the UK protects "civil liberties" and enables "an independent investigation by international human rights organizations" of all the circumstances of the death of the immigrant Mark Duggan, whose murder served as the detonator for the riots in British cities.

Print version Font Size Send to friend The assessments of the ongoing events in the UK made by Iran and Libya are nearly identical to the official reaction of the West to the opposition's actions in Libya and Syria.

London in February declared the ruling regime of Muammar Gaddafi in Libya illegitimate, because the latter dared to resist the attacks by the armed opposition groups, including Islamists.

Three months later, similar language appeared in the assessment of the actions of Bashar Assad's regime allied with Iran. At least, the British Foreign Secretary Haig was one of the first officials who said that as a result of the repression against its own population, Assad has lost legitimacy.

All these factors served as a justification for the start of military operations against Libya, and now Syria is under the same threat. "We cannot speculate on human rights in relation to the events in the UK", said Cameron.

But what do the British authorities do? Particular attention should be paid to the ways Cameron's regime uses to suppress the British revolution. In a hastily fashion the so-called courts, after only three days after the unrest, began to review cases of protesters facing severe criminal penalties.

Cameron himself had vowed that water cannons would be used against peaceful demonstrators. Is it possible to ignore such a blatant violation of human rights in one of the leading democratic countries?

Many in the Russian blogosphere feel sorry for the Brits who fell victims to their excessive tolerance. Earlier, Britain took liberty to harshly criticize Russia for violating human rights during counter-terrorist operation in the North Caucasus, as well as for the fact that Moscow does not enter into a dialogue with the "opposition."

The actions of the British prime minister and his henchmen from the police towards the protesters of color forced to mention racism. Especially as the police turn a blind eye to the actions of the Nazis from the so-called British "Defense League" that with the tacit approval of Cameron started the violent repression of the revolution.

Many have pointed out that TV channels have tried to present the information in such a way as to show that the rioters were predominantly Africans or Pakistanis. However, this is not the case. Various blogs display numerous photos of white people who came to protest in the streets along their black brothers against the actions of the authorities and the deterioration of the living conditions. Moreover, according to news agency JTA, the revolution has also affected the Jewish community in Britain. Its representatives, for example, in Tottenham were dispersed by mounted police when they came to protest against the racist and pro-Nazi activities.

However, for some people it would be very disadvantageous if the events in the UK looked like anything other than the "race riot."

British bloggers have reported that skinheads smashed a few shops belonging to Muslims. In this sense, the behavior of the British prime minister makes bloggers question whether he sympathizes with the British infamous Nazi Mosley.

The official London recognizes that the prisons are overcrowded by those who tried to protest against the blatant tyranny of the police. What right does the country that states that it is democratic have to deal with peaceful protesters in this way? There are children among the detainees. Has British democracy fallen as low as to fight its future, the younger generation?

There are those who defend Cameron. They say that there is no comparison between those in Libya and Syria and the scoundrels who dared raise their hand against one of the cradles of the world democracy.

Of course, there is no comparison. Suffice it to stress the humanistic aspirations of British protesters, who, in contrast to the Syrian and Libyan opposition, were not seen murdering police officers. Slanderous accusations of massive looting of shops by the opposition are spread by the media lured by the official London. There are statements of the opposition in the social networks according to which arson and looting are the work of provocateurs hired by the police and MI6.

They have one goal: to demonize and discredit the British revolution. At the very least, there is the presumption of innocence and indictments can be made only by the judicial authorities, but not newspaper people.

Even if some of the demonstrators take something from a supermarket - is it enough of a reason to conduct a punitive police operation? In some areas the revolutionary course of events and actions of the authorities interfered with the supply of food. People need something to eat. Is it any wonder that somewhere people are hungry and jump at food?

Now, after several months of civil war, no one would dare call the Libyan opposition "peaceful demonstrators". The same applies to the glorious successors of the "Arab revolution" in Syrian Hama, where the opposition quite democratically cut the heads of the "Assad's supporters" and set government buildings on fire.

The question arises: if the West supported such actions of the "peaceful demonstrators" by air strikes in Libya, what kind of punishment does Britain deserve?

Now, when the riots are dwindling down, many in London sighed quietly. Yet, how long will the peace last? After all, the event showed the weakness of the former "mistress of the seas" in the face of popular protests. And most importantly, can Great Britain and the West open their mouths in defense of "peaceful demonstrators" in Libya and Syria?

It is important to pay attention to the fact that at last Libya and Iran have united in their opposition to the UK. That in itself deserves attention since for a long time Qaddafi believed Iran to be one of his main enemies. Iran was not particularly respectful towards the "Libyan upstart" either. However, the aggressive actions of the West, including Britain, against Libya and Syria forced Tripoli and Tehran to reconcile their positions. Indeed, it is time for Iran and Libya to stop the long unnecessary strife. Apparently, they found the "Achilles heel" of the UK.

Sergei Balmasov
Pravda.Ru
:haha: and I thought the Daily Mail was shit...

buddyholly
08-14-2011, 04:41 AM
Wrong. The monarchy has zero influence these days and is only there for the tourists.

No so. When that idiot becomes king it is only a matter of time before you all get sick and die anyway.

It is hardly zero influence when Charles spends his time lobbying parliament for more use of homeopathic medicines (for the uninitated, homeopathic medicines are nothing more than pure water. What may have been an original ingredient has been diluted so much that a bottle of medicine is now statistically unlikely to contain a single molecule of the ''medicinal'' ingredient.)

Yet the NHS spends millions of pounds each year on buying these bottles of water to give to sick Britons. Don't tell me that is zero influence.

And of course, Andy's influence is not worth zero either. It apparently has a market price.

Sofonda Cox
08-14-2011, 10:59 AM
No so. When that idiot becomes king it is only a matter of time before you all get sick and die anyway.

It is hardly zero influence when Charles spends his time lobbying parliament for more use of homeopathic medicines (for the uninitated, homeopathic medicines are nothing more than pure water. What may have been an original ingredient has been diluted so much that a bottle of medicine is now statistically unlikely to contain a single molecule of the ''medicinal'' ingredient.)

Yet the NHS spends millions of pounds each year on buying these bottles of water to give to sick Britons. Don't tell me that is zero influence.

And of course, Andy's influence is not worth zero either. It apparently has a market price.

:cuckoo:

buddyholly
08-15-2011, 01:38 AM
Good argument there. Prince Charles would approve.

RafterFanatic
08-15-2011, 07:27 PM
That's what happens when you follow neoliberal policies: crisis, riots, revolution. It was obvious the Europeans wouldn't stay quiet while the rich get richer and richer and the poor poorer and poorer. They're not gullible enough to do like the Americans and defend the exact people who exploit them the most.

buddyholly
08-19-2011, 03:56 PM
That's what happens when you follow neoliberal policies: crisis, riots, revolution. It was obvious the Europeans wouldn't stay quiet while the rich get richer and richer and the poor poorer and poorer. They're not gullible enough to do like the Americans and defend the exact people who exploit them the most.

Hailing a few empty-headed teens, breaking plate glass windows to get ''free stuff'', as the harbingers of revolution is akin to those people who predict the end of the world from reading the bible - if you do it often enough you might one day get it right.

In the meantime most sane people will call robbing the backback of a bleeding and injured immigrant or running over and killing Pakistanis who are just trying to defend their hard-won property, just plain revolting, not revolutionary.

Sapeod
08-21-2011, 11:01 PM
What I hate most about these riots, apart from the obvious problems (people being killed, destruction etc.) is that some people are calling it the British Riots. It's the English Riots, not British :stupid: England is not Britain :stupid:

Blackbriar
08-25-2011, 08:38 PM
What I hate most about these riots, apart from the obvious problems (people being killed, destruction etc.) is that some people are calling it the British Riots. It's the English Riots, not British :stupid: England is not Britain :stupid:

It's not the "english", it's the black, arab abd muslims who want to kill some christians.