Anders Behring Breivik declared sane, sentenced to 21 years in jail for Oslo massacre [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Anders Behring Breivik declared sane, sentenced to 21 years in jail for Oslo massacre

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Filo V.
07-22-2011, 07:33 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/jul/22/oslo-explosion-live-coverage

EDIT: Anders Behring Breivik, extreme right-wing Christian fundamentalist, arrested as the primary culprit for the two attacks in Oslo.

Filo V.
07-22-2011, 07:35 PM
Check the guardian, they have live reporting and video.

Obviously, best wishes go out to all MTF Norwegian posters and also those who have friends in Norway.

Sonja1989
07-22-2011, 07:48 PM
Oh, that's terrible. :sad:

Norwegians :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

Sunset of Age
07-22-2011, 07:57 PM
Awful. Man, there are SICK minds in this world... :mad:

All the best to the Norwegians over here! :hug:

Black Adam
07-22-2011, 08:12 PM
Is it because of their involvment in that Libya NATO fiasco?

Action Jackson
07-22-2011, 08:21 PM
The man who impersonated a cop at Utøya from all reports is a Norwegian not a Muslim immigrant that some wanted it to be. He targeted Labor Party youth and the Labor PM.

I don't give a shit what side of politics, but no need to be killing innocent youth. Things will change in Norway, but the press have been excellent, no over the top sensationalist shit, just reporting the news at it came to hand.

kinski76
07-22-2011, 08:25 PM
It's so unreal. I live in Oslo, and would have been downtown at the time of the first attack if I hadn't accidentally missed the train. I was outside the government building only yesterday. Utøya, the location of the second attack, is situated ten minutes away from Hønefoss, the town where I grew up and my parents still live. The latest unconfirmed reports suggest there are between 20-30 casualties at Utøya alone. The news reports also suggest we may be dealing with a Unabomber type of Norwegian descent, who has been captured and is currently questioned by the police. I for one hope the latter to be the case.

alfonsojose
07-22-2011, 08:27 PM
:tears: :hug: So sad

kinski76
07-22-2011, 08:27 PM
Things will change in Norway, but the press have been excellent, no over the top sensationalist shit, just reporting the news at it came to hand.

I agree. The media coverage has been admirably balanced and level-headed. No finger-pointing towards convenient scapegoat groupings.

Action Jackson
07-22-2011, 08:33 PM
I agree. The media coverage has been admirably balanced and level-headed. No finger-pointing towards convenient scapegoat groupings.

I got friends in Oslo, but luckily no family there. So I've been having friends, reading NRK and even the tabloids have behaved themselves.

There were many who wanted it to be Islamic immigrants, but it was a local.

Alex Schau this was a great tweet. "Dette er en dag hverken hodet eller hjertet kan forstå. Ta en telefon, ring på hos en nabo eller besøk noen du kjenner og slå av en prat".

Today is a day, which neither the head or the heart will understand. Pick up the phone ring your neighbour or visit someone you know and have a chat.

It's the worst day in Norway since WW2, but they will get through this tough time.

Ljubo_rulz
07-22-2011, 09:13 PM
My deepest sympathies to the Norwegian people. RIP to all killed :tears:

kinski76
07-22-2011, 09:28 PM
Several undetonated explosives recovered at Utøya. So yes, we're most probably looking at the same culprit in regards to both attacks. Ethnically Norwegian, 32 years of age, apparently willing to disclose information to the police. Currently unknown whether he operated alone or had companions.

ibreak4coffee
07-22-2011, 09:31 PM
Disgusting act in such a beautiful country full of great people :mad:

Filo V.
07-22-2011, 09:43 PM
Based on the last CNN report I read, the death toll will likely end up much higher than the 16 reported currently. People are still trapped underneath the destroyed buildings, youth are either dead in the water or were shot and their bodies fell into the water. There are unconfirmed rumors that there are more bombs in Oslo, and all Norwegian citizens have been told to stay in their homes for the weekend.

This reminds me of Jared Lee Loughner, the guy in Arizona who went on an anti-government rampage. Incidents such as this cannot be explained by any rational minded person, but it does make you realize that the divisiveness of the political sphere can and does create disaffected minded individuals, and emboldens those who are already mentally ill.

What makes this story all the more tragic are the kids at the camp who were shot :sad:

Sauletekis
07-22-2011, 09:52 PM
A big Tragedy really. My thoughts are with the families that suffer a dead (or injury) of a family member or a friend.

But now that we know it's not muslam or even foreigner attack, can someone explain what motivate a bomb attack of a norweigan in their own country? I mean, it's not Spain, but do Norway have some kind of ETA?

Thanks in advance;)

Arkulari
07-22-2011, 09:58 PM
I'm half Norwegian on my mother's side, thankfully no family or friends of mine were killed or injured.

I grew up with ETA breathing down our necks (my dad being an Army officer made us primary targets) so I know what it's like to live thinking you could be next, it's simply awful.

My thoughts and prayers to all Norwegians. Være sterke, ikke la skurkene vinner.

kinski76
07-22-2011, 10:02 PM
A big Tragedy really. My thoughts are with the families that suffer a dead (or injury) of a family member or a friend.

But now that we know it's not muslam or even foreigner attack, can someone explain what motivate a bomb attack of a norweigan in their own country? I mean, it's not Spain, but do Norway have some kind of ETA?

Thanks in advance;)

Only speculation so far, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt. My initial suspicion was that this could be the work of a right-wing extremist in opposition to the current Labour Party government, since neo-nazism is on the rise here. Another theory is that we're talking about a mentally ill Afghanistan veteran who holds a grudge.
.

GugaF1
07-22-2011, 10:08 PM
Is funny how the Americans the media is itching to blame Al quaida or muslims affiliates. Even president Obama's statement was something of a supposed anti-west terrorist group. Without yet nothing confirmed and actual facts not pointing towards this direction. It would make it easier eh, if it wasn't a tall blue eyed Norweigen.

cobalt60
07-22-2011, 10:09 PM
No matter who's accountable it is just so tragic.

Sauletekis
07-22-2011, 10:12 PM
Only speculation so far, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt. My initial suspicion was that this could be the work of a right-wing extremist in opposition to the current Labour Party government, since neo-nazism is on the rise here. Another theory is that we're talking about a mentally ill Afghanistan veteran who holds a grudge.
.

I know it's only speculations, but thanks anyway. Actually, it sounds like a very valid one. There are extremist in right and left wing, but usually, in develloped countries, it's not so common that they get violent in a way to kill people (and from their own country). I guess there are exceptions, and this was a very sad and tragic one :(

barbadosan
07-22-2011, 10:19 PM
Deepest sympathies to all Norwegians. I have a few Norwegians in a tech channel I run on IRC, and they're totally devastated, and one guy actually became a new dad today. He was telling us of the huge amount of security at the hospital where his son was born.

Lopez
07-22-2011, 10:45 PM
My heart goes out to all Norwegians and people touched by this tragedy.

Naturally this also concerns us Finns after the bombing in Sweden and the possibility of "Norden" becoming a target for terrorism. The only silver lining I see here is that the guy seems to be a right-wing extremist and this is not an Islamic terrorist attack, which would raise security concerns a lot in Finland as well.

Orka_n
07-22-2011, 11:16 PM
This is messed up. My prayers and thoughts go out to the families involved.
I was in Oslo 3 days ago... just unbelievable. :sad:

Johnny Groove
07-23-2011, 12:19 AM
Jesus.

abraxas21
07-23-2011, 12:34 AM
sad news

but at the same times it reveals how skewed the western perspectives are. terrorist attacks happen virtually every month in places like iraq and afghanistan and the average joe in the average american town doesn't raise an eyebrow. a terrorist attack happens in a rich western nation and every western dude is talking about it and every western newspapaper has the news on the front page.

someone should tell them terrorists not to bomb more white people

kinski76
07-23-2011, 12:53 AM
sad news

but at the same times it reveals how skewed the western perspectives are. terrorist attacks happen virtually every month in places like iraq and afghanistan and the average joe in the average american town doesn't raise an eyebrow. a terrorist attack happens in a rich western nation and every western dude is talking about it and every western newspapaper has the news on the front page.

someone should tell them terrorists not to bomb more white people

This is exactly why rich western nations are targeted, abraxas. It ensures publicity for the culprits in question. If 9/11 taught us anything it is that western lives are valued above anything else. It's sad news indeed, but there you are. Your point is valid, but it doesn't take anything away from the tragedy in question.

Filo V.
07-23-2011, 01:12 AM
Also, it should show people that right-wing and left-wing (especially ultra far right conservatism, really) is dangerous in itself, just like terrorism is dangerous, and is a potential security threat, and is an even more immediate concern because these are extremists who live in whatever respective country they reside in. We can't always shout "it's those damn Arabs" when incidents like this happen. But it's easier for people to make assumptions that justify their biases, so I doubt things will change mentally for those who think this way.

Getta
07-23-2011, 01:33 AM
sad news

but at the same times it reveals how skewed the western perspectives are. terrorist attacks happen virtually every month in places like iraq and afghanistan and the average joe in the average american town doesn't raise an eyebrow. a terrorist attack happens in a rich western nation and every western dude is talking about it and every western newspapaper has the news on the front page.

someone should tell them terrorists not to bomb more white people

This is exactly why rich western nations are targeted, abraxas. It ensures publicity for the culprits in question. If 9/11 taught us anything it is that western lives are valued above anything else. It's sad news indeed, but there you are. It doesn't take anything away from the tragedy in question, but I cannot dispute the fact that your point is valid.

hmm,


not western lives, but lives of people from rich countries.
not only white people, but also people from rich multi-racial countries or from rich rather ethnically homogenous countries other than white.
not only terrorist attacks, but also fatal accidents and physical disasters.


for instance, nearly two-thirds of the victims of hurricane Katrina in New Orleans were black... got huge publicity...
nuclear disaster in Fukujima and the earthquake that struck Kobe in 1995... both got huge publicity...
the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami would not have gotten such a massive publicity in Europe had not so many foreign (mostly European) tourists been killed...


sadly, lives of people from rich countries are considered more important than all the rest in all possible scenarios.

Clay Death
07-23-2011, 01:40 AM
terrible tragedy. prayers go out to the families who lost their loved ones.


this is not the right thing to do. why target innocent people.

Getta
07-23-2011, 01:47 AM
targeting guilty people is not the right thing to do either.

there's a system of law and justice...

straitup
07-23-2011, 01:55 AM
Thoughts go out to everyone in Norway, especially those that were involved and their family/friends.

Nasi
07-23-2011, 01:57 AM
Ugh, how awful. Hope we find out more soon about why this happened.

Also, it should show people that right-wing and left-wing (especially ultra far right conservatism, really)

If I think of the most prominent attacks on US government buildings, at least, I think of 9/11, then before that, Oklahoma City, then before that, the Weather Underground. So I'm not sure any group is especially dangerous. Extremists of any stripe, religious, right, left, etc, will sometimes turn violent.

GugaF1
07-23-2011, 01:58 AM
Not to mention that there are people today and have been for weeks now in Somalia dying of starvation and the coverage didn't get nearly enough attention as this unfortunate incident today. Of course, what happened today is a tragedy, but people dying in this world while there are plenty of food for everyone, in my view is maddening.

kinski76
07-23-2011, 02:00 AM
According to the latest reports at least 80 young people have been killed at Utøya. Eighty. Massacred by one man, apparently. On a lovely idyllic holiday island near my childhood home. This does shock and surprise me. I expected the death toll to rise, but not to this extent.

Seingeist
07-23-2011, 02:04 AM
sad news

Correct! End post! But no...

but at the same times it reveals how skewed the western perspectives are. terrorist attacks happen virtually every month in places like iraq and afghanistan and the average joe in the average american town doesn't raise an eyebrow. a terrorist attack happens in a rich western nation and every western dude is talking about it and every western newspapaper has the news on the front page.

someone should tell them terrorists not to bomb more white people

How bout "at the same times," you stop at the acknowledgment of this tragedy and stuff your tedious (and tiresomely trite) political sermonizing?

Orka_n
07-23-2011, 02:23 AM
According to the latest reports at least 80 young people have been killed at Utøya. Eighty. Massacred by one man, apparently. On a lovely idyllic holiday island near my childhood home. This does shock and surprise me. I expected the death toll to rise, but not to this extent.Watching the live feed... I'm at a loss for words.

njnetswill
07-23-2011, 03:01 AM
Just horrible. Over 80 killed, between the ages of 14 and 18. By one man. Targeting children is just the lowest thing you can do.

Lee
07-23-2011, 03:01 AM
I am very saddened by this tragic news.

And further my saddness by various people using this tragic news to promote their political agenda.

RIP for all those killed!

buddyholly
07-23-2011, 03:02 AM
Correct! End post! But no...



How bout "at the same times," you stop at the acknowledgment of this tragedy and stuff your tedious (and tiresomely trite) political sermonizing?

He sees these tragedies that happen in the ''western civilizations'' as a deserved fate. He thinks they demonstrate that the west is evil and the punishment is just.
Unfortunate that he had to voice his opinions here so soon.

Clay Death
07-23-2011, 03:05 AM
horrible tragedy that just got worse with the latest update.

TMJordan
07-23-2011, 06:39 AM
I hate the human race.

Or Levy
07-23-2011, 06:41 AM
Is there a bigger horror than to be stuck on a bloody deserted island with apparently zero police or security, and a madman with a gun? Fucking hell. My hearts are with those kids and their families.

Honest to God, we're talking about a camp for the youth of a political organization, I know this is ever-peaceful Norway, but there should have been (real) police forces on that island. 80 dead means this guy was shooting and verifying his killings for a long while.

OddJob
07-23-2011, 06:54 AM
So very sad. I feel for the families. :sad:

Björki
07-23-2011, 09:10 AM
just horrible :sad:

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 09:48 AM
Here is the man responsible.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01953/Anders_Behring_Bre_1953790c.jpg

bokehlicious
07-23-2011, 10:15 AM
What a news to wake up to. Unreal. TMJordan is so spot on. :sad:

Or Levy
07-23-2011, 10:19 AM
The horrible thing is, the casualty number has probably risen just because it was Norway, a country where there is apparently no armed security whatsoever in a summer camp owned by the ruling labor party.

Had this happened in Israel, or probably even in the states, the person would have been taken down or upper handed after several shots, just because we are better prepared.

This is inconceivable for me as an Israeli, but I'm sure it makes a lot of sense for the Norwegians, who never had to deal with anything like that in the past. No history of terrorism (International, domestic or otherwise) there at all. I wonder how things would change for them from now on.

Horrible to hear about kids playing dead (which is what I would have done, probably) only to have this guy verifying his killings.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 10:22 AM
For those who don't know the maximum sentence in Norway is 21 years, but can be extended if there is no chance of rehab. Breivik fits this case, should never be released.

jonathancrane
07-23-2011, 10:28 AM
No words

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 10:38 AM
Is there a bigger horror than to be stuck on a bloody deserted island with apparently zero police or security, and a madman with a gun? Fucking hell. My hearts are with those kids and their families.

Honest to God, we're talking about a camp for the youth of a political organization, I know this is ever-peaceful Norway, but there should have been (real) police forces on that island. 80 dead means this guy was shooting and verifying his killings for a long while.

Not everywhere is as security conscious like Israel. There will be questions of the police response to Utøya which lead to Breivik killing people who were in the water trying to get away, but that investigation will come in time.

As for what will change, people go on like before because if they don't, then they'll have lost which won't happen. There will be some extra security around initially. Tough times which they will come through.

Hewitt =Legend
07-23-2011, 10:44 AM
Absolutely horrible, Breivik should rot away in prison for the rest of his life.

Thoughts go out to all people affected...

kinski76
07-23-2011, 10:53 AM
As for the security issue irt Utøya, it is also worth noting that when the bomb initially went off outside the government building in downtown Oslo, all available police was called to the site in order to secure other potential targets of terror. So when Breivik started his shooting spree at the island the police was otherwise occupied 40 km away. All the attention was initially directed to the situation in Oslo. Special forces were sent by helicopter when the gravity of the situation at Utøya became obvious, but by the time they finally arrived most of the damage had already been done. It was probably deliberately planned out that way; the bomb, destructive enough in itself, also functioned as a distraction, buying the killer the necessary time he needed to get to his primary destination.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 10:55 AM
As for the security issue irt Utøya, it is also worth noting that when the bomb initially went off outside the government building in downtown Oslo, all available police was called to the site in order to secure other potential targets of terror. So when Breivik started his shooting spree at the island the police was otherwise occupied 40 km away. All the attention was initially directed to the situation in Oslo. Special forces were sent by helicopter when the gravity of the situation at Utøya became obvious, but by the time they finally arrived most of the damage had already been done. It was probably deliberately planned out that way; the bomb, destructive enough in itself, also functioned as a distraction, buying the killer the necessary time he needed to get to his primary destination.

This

scoobs
07-23-2011, 11:06 AM
My sympathies go out to all those affected by this horrible incident. There are no words, really. I never cease to be sickened and depressed at our capacity to hurt each other.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 11:11 AM
Another Norwegian arrested at Sundvollen, where the people who survived Utøya were gathered.

Or Levy
07-23-2011, 11:39 AM
Not everywhere is as security conscious like Israel. There will be questions of the police response to Utøya which lead to Breivik killing people who were in the water trying to get away, but that investigation will come in time.

As for what will change, people go on like before because if they don't, then they'll have lost which won't happen. There will be some extra security around initially. Tough times which they will come through.

Of course, I'm aware that not every country is like Israel (and that's a good thing), and people would indeed go on, because that's what people do, and at the end, these things only really remain in your heart once you've lost a loved one.

But I'm sure security wise, some lessons will be learned.

Or Levy
07-23-2011, 11:41 AM
As for the security issue irt Utøya, it is also worth noting that when the bomb initially went off outside the government building in downtown Oslo, all available police was called to the site in order to secure other potential targets of terror. So when Breivik started his shooting spree at the island the police was otherwise occupied 40 km away. All the attention was initially directed to the situation in Oslo. Special forces were sent by helicopter when the gravity of the situation at Utøya became obvious, but by the time they finally arrived most of the damage had already been done. It was probably deliberately planned out that way; the bomb, destructive enough in itself, also functioned as a distraction, buying the killer the necessary time he needed to get to his primary destination.

The fact that he had managed to execute both events by himself is mind-blowing.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 11:43 AM
Of course, I'm aware that not every country is like Israel (and that's a good thing), and people would indeed go on, because that's what people do, and at the end, these things only really remain in your heart once you've lost a loved one.

But I'm sure security wise, some lessons will be learned.

Kinski nailed it, in fact it should help unite the people. Bombing of parliament tied up the police and then Utøya was able to happen.

anon57
07-23-2011, 11:48 AM
Just horrible news, my sympathies go out to all affected.

buddyholly
07-23-2011, 12:21 PM
Another Norwegian arrested at Sundvollen, where the people who survived Utøya were gathered.

I am having a hard time imagining how one crazed individual could carry out this attack alone. Is there any news or opinion on the likliehood of more people being involved?
However, there is also a report that the suspect bought 6 tons of fertilizer a few weeks ago. It is easy to say now, but when someone purchases a large amount of fertiliser surely there should be a check on its intended use and whether the buyer has the facilities needed to put it to good use.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 12:23 PM
I am having a hard time imagining how one crazed individual could carry out this attack alone. Is there any news or opinion on the likliehood of more people being involved?

That one arrested was part of the Labor movement. There has been several witnesses saying there was another man with a rifle at Utøya, he had darker hair and didn't use a police uniform.

Certinfy
07-23-2011, 01:13 PM
91 now? :sad:

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 01:31 PM
I am having a hard time imagining how one crazed individual could carry out this attack alone. Is there any news or opinion on the likliehood of more people being involved?
However, there is also a report that the suspect bought 6 tons of fertilizer a few weeks ago. It is easy to say now, but when someone purchases a large amount of fertiliser surely there should be a check on its intended use and whether the buyer has the facilities needed to put it to good use.

He had an organic farm, hence he was able to get that much without questions being asked as he had been doing the farming gig.

cobalt60
07-23-2011, 01:36 PM
A bit eerie this; 2 days ago my niece sent me pictures from the Oklahoma City Memorial from the bombing there. She was visiting her brother and playing tourist. This tragedy so reminds me of that incident. I hugged my kids extra hard last night.

ImmzB
07-23-2011, 01:37 PM
Very sad to hear, and targeting young innocent people! :mad: :sad:

abraxas21
07-23-2011, 02:28 PM
He sees these tragedies that happen in the ''western civilizations'' as a deserved fate. He thinks they demonstrate that the west is evil and the punishment is just.
Unfortunate that he had to voice his opinions here so soon.

STFU or else stop speaking out of your ass. you have no idea how i feel about this and i dare say i care much more about the lost lives than you do.

abraxas21
07-23-2011, 02:30 PM
Honest to God, we're talking about a camp for the youth of a political organization, I know this is ever-peaceful Norway, but there should have been (real) police forces on that island. 80 dead means this guy was shooting and verifying his killings for a long while.

others will correct me if im wrong but i undestand that the coppers dont carry guns in norway.

abraxas21
07-23-2011, 02:32 PM
Here is the man responsible.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01953/Anders_Behring_Bre_1953790c.jpg

a right wing extremist with libertarian views. how fucking surprsing.

at least he wasnt a muslim so that the right wing media and clowns like BH could start demonizing the 'muslim terrorists' again.

abraxas21
07-23-2011, 02:38 PM
I was working in the information booth on the island.

We were informed by radio of a bombing in Oslo, so we gathered all 700 people on the island together to tell them.

A couple of minutes later we got a phone call to say one policeman was coming on to the shore to see us.

I went to the coffee shop to get supplies for everyone. I then heard gun shots and could see people running. As they were running, they were shot in the back.

People were falling dead right in front of me.

I ran through the campus to the tent area. I saw the gunman - two people started to talk to him and two seconds later they were both shot.

He was wearing a black uniform, with red edges. He looked liked a Nazi, with his police-like uniform and hair.

The gunman was very sure, calm and controlled. He looked like he knew what he was doing. He screamed at us that we would all die.

We all started to run down to the water, people had already undressed and started swimming. I thought I didn't have enough time to take off my clothes, so I started swimming in the rain, in my clothes and big boots.

I went for about 150 metres but the lake is about 800 metres long. I realised I wouldn't make it so I turned back.

I saw him standing 10 metres from me, shooting at the people who were swimming. He aimed his machine gun at me and I screamed at him, 'No please no, don't do it'. I don't know if he listened to me but he spared me.

He came back an hour later. I was with other survivors and we were lying down and hiding behind the trees and rocks. We were freezing in our wet clothes.

The shooting started again and people were falling on top of me, on my legs and falling into the water - that's when many people died. I just had to shield myself behind them, praying he wouldn't see me. In the middle of the shooting I got a bullet in my back.

Then he came closer, I could feel his breath, I could feel his boots, I could feel the warmth of the barrel.

But I didn't move and that's what saved my life. I am now in hospital. It's not the physical pain that's the worst, it's thinking of how many of friends have died.

what a complete nutcase... i cant understand the motivations for doing such a thing.

also pretty damn slow reaction from the norwegian coppers. over an hour went by and still no cops around? i understand they were worried about the oslo thing but come on, over an hour?

Filo V.
07-23-2011, 02:45 PM
a right wing extremist with libertarian views. how fucking surprsing.

at least he wasnt a muslim so that the right wing media and clowns like BH could start demonizing the 'muslim terrorists' again.

No, but this does give more fodder to people who see right-wing attitudes/religious fundamentalism (which are a lot of times very connected) as something that is inherently damaging to those who believe it and society at large.

It really doesn't matter who the attacker is, some people will always find a way to eventually demonize and find blame on the group the attacker was apart of.

JolánGagó
07-23-2011, 02:47 PM
unbelievable.

funny many think mankind is progressing, as if evergrowing available data and global panconnection meant something when ppl using all that are the same as they were in the neolithic, intelligent animals.

abraxas21
07-23-2011, 02:50 PM
No, but this does give more fodder to people who see right-wing attitudes/religious fundamentalism (which are a lot of times very connected) as something that is inherently damaging to those who believe it and society at large.

It really doesn't matter who the attacker is, some people will always find a way to eventually demonize and find blame on the group the attacker was apart of.

yes, i actually agree with you here

JolánGagó
07-23-2011, 02:51 PM
Kinski nailed it, in fact it should help unite the people.

That's the ideal, and what most ppl will try, but experience shows this kind of event always have undesirable consequences.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 02:52 PM
a right wing extremist with libertarian views. how fucking surprsing.

at least he wasnt a muslim so that the right wing media and clowns like BH could start demonizing the 'muslim terrorists' again.

If you want to dispute this with holly that's fine, just not in here. I mean the Norwegian press and police were telling people to wait until they find people responsible, not to scapegoat of course some still did it.

What aren't you understanding the police were tied up with the bombing in Oslo, as the people wanted. Can only get to Utøya by boat or helicopter, plus it's 40km away. Think about it, this is not the right time for questioning the police review, but it will happen soon enough.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 02:55 PM
That's the ideal, and what most ppl will try, but experience shows this kind of event always have undesirable consequences.

Obviously there are going to be the core of extremists which exist in all society. There are underlying tensions, which need to be dealt with.

fast_clay
07-23-2011, 03:08 PM
unbelievable.

funny many think mankind is progressing, as if evergrowing available data and global panconnection meant something when ppl using all that are the same as they were in the neolithic, intelligent animals.

nope...this is no age of enlightenment...a couple more western financial crisis and we're on the edge of a media driven dark age... So fair play to the Norwegian media outlets for showing the way...

Aj...we're you in tassie when Martin Bryant went ape shit in Port Arthur and killed 20 something...? Same type...blonde haired hairbrain...

GugaF1
07-23-2011, 03:18 PM
Now seriously if you are a regular Muslim you can feel somewhat pissed off about this. I was watching the coverage of this since events started The New York time and the BBC, some guys already almost conecting to Muslim terrorists, some were pretty sure even, talking about the ability of the attacker and because the explosion was so big, it problably had to be a well trained terrorist and Muslim.

Then reports started to come out that the arrested was a typical Norweigan man and the reproters were like well, it doesn't mean it is not still the Muslims, some attacks are know to recruit from locals, so it could well have been one or maybe a Norweigan who went to train in Pakistan or something. Then now finally the police coming out saying that it was likely political driven. What a BS, I was thinking to myself if you are a muslim I guess you can be pretty pissed off. Any explosion happening anywhere in the world "reporters" will try single them, until all the possibilities are out.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 03:26 PM
.

Aj...we're you in tassie when Martin Bryant went ape shit in Port Arthur and killed 20 something...? Same type...blonde haired hairbrain...

He killed 36 and I arrived there 2 days before.

As for the Muslim element, it's always the easy one to go to. Yes, there are some absolute shitheads but as we said the Norwegian press have been excellent with the coverage.

GugaF1
07-23-2011, 03:38 PM
As for the Muslim element, it's always the easy one to go to. Yes, there are some absolute shitheads but as we said the Norwegian press have been excellent with the coverage.

Yes, was talking about the international press. Good on the Norwegians for not over reacting.

Boarder35m
07-23-2011, 04:55 PM
It´s very tragic and I feel sorry for all the victims. :sad:

Yesterday in the german news they had the idea that this could not have been a single men and to be honest I really prefered this idea, because then the police can have the chance to controll and stop thie group.
But a single perpetator with maybe some tendecies which are known is just poison for any society.
I really hope that norwegian media stays as ballanced at is seems to be at the moment. :unsure:

buddyholly
07-23-2011, 04:59 PM
at least he wasnt a muslim so that the right wing media and clowns like BH could start demonizing the 'muslim terrorists' again.

Well, we differ on that one and it really has nothing to do with this thread. Call me crazy, but I DO think Muslim terrorists are demons.
Just be aware that you shamelessly introduced the Muslim element to this thread.

rhinooooo
07-23-2011, 05:02 PM
Guardian reporting that some witness statements indicate it could have been more than one man.

Has anyone read any information on what gun/s he was armed with?

buddyholly
07-23-2011, 05:03 PM
If you want to dispute this with holly that's fine, just not in here.

I hope he is listening to you.

kinski76
07-23-2011, 05:08 PM
Guardian reporting that some witness statements indicate it could have been more than one man.

Has anyone read any information on what gun/s he was armed with?

One handgun and one shotgun, I believe.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 05:09 PM
Guardian reporting that some witness statements indicate it could have been more than one man.

Has anyone read any information on what gun/s he was armed with?

I said earlier in the thread about a 2nd man. Well he had 3 guns shotgun, a handgun and an automatic weapon.

Chip_s_m
07-23-2011, 05:09 PM
Terrible tragedy. However, it's awfully convenient for the global, particularly European, elite. Opposition to the EU empire amongst the European people is at an all-time high due to the debt crises and the associated loss of sovereignty. Granted, Norway isn't part of the EU, but you can bet proponents of the EU everywhere are going to attempt to discredit anti-EU groups, such as the True Finns, by linking them to right-wing nuts. I wouldn't be too surprised if this guy was even encouraged by certain subversive government elements with that very plan in mind.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 05:14 PM
Terrible tragedy. However, it's awfully convenient for the global, particularly European, elite. Opposition to the EU empire amongst the European people is at an all-time high due to the debt crises and the associated loss of sovereignty. Granted, Norway isn't part of the EU, but you can bet proponents of the EU everywhere are going to attempt to discredit anti-EU groups, such as the True Finns, by linking them to right-wing nuts. I wouldn't be too surprised if this guy was even encouraged by certain subversive government elements with that very plan in mind.

True Finns have what relevance? The EU is an economic union, they aren't going to get full political union in the near future. I think you watch too many movies.

buddyholly
07-23-2011, 05:14 PM
I said earlier in the thread about a 2nd man. Well he had 3 guns shotgun, a handgun and an automatic weapon.

He must have previously hidden these on the island, surely? I can't see how he could have been allowed over to the island carrying those.

Gagsquet
07-23-2011, 05:19 PM
Two Hours ?? 2 hours before they captured him! What the hell was police doing?

I know it's an small island but..

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 05:20 PM
He must have previously hidden these on the island, surely? I can't see how he could have been allowed over to the island carrying those.

These weapons were all registered to him and it's not that easy to a gun licence. Well as I said there were reports of a 2nd man as well. He was disguised as a cop and travelled on the boat to Utøya, one on either side and other in the bag.

Investigations are still going on as you can understand.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 05:23 PM
Two Hours ?? 2 hours before they captured him! What the hell police had been doing?

I know it's an small island but..

But what? Most of the police were involved in the bombing of the govt offices, then have to get out of there, onto a road to get the boat which takes 40 minutes. The timing of the incidents were done to create maximum damage.

buddyholly
07-23-2011, 05:24 PM
These weapons were all registered to him and it's not that easy to a gun licence. Well as I said there were reports of a 2nd man as well. He was disguised as a cop and travelled on the boat to Utøya, one on either side and other in the bag.

Investigations are still going on as you can understand.

OK

Lots of things are easy to do when a city is in panic, I guess.

Gagsquet
07-23-2011, 05:26 PM
They came with an helicopter.. so I don't understand why it was so long.

Or Levy
07-23-2011, 05:28 PM
He must have previously hidden these on the island, surely? I can't see how he could have been allowed over to the island carrying those.

They thought he was a cop. Still, don't understand how it could have happened. I mean, I've yet to hear about adults on this island. They said on the news the kids was gathered in a room, well - were there no adults there who was surprised by this 'cop' giving them updates about the news from Oslo?

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 05:29 PM
They came with an helicopter.. so I don't understand why it was so long.

Securing the scene of the bombing. Still weren't sure whether there were more bombs. Government buildings and prime minister's office tend to get higher priority.

Or Levy
07-23-2011, 05:30 PM
They came with an helicopter.. so I don't understand why it was so long.

I don't think you can land on the island via helicopter, if there is no suitable pad to land or suitable cables in which you can slide down from the helicopter (which I imagine they didn't have). You need to arrive by a boat.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 05:32 PM
They thought he was a cop. Still, don't understand how it could have happened. I mean, I've yet to hear about adults on this island. They said on the news the kids was gathered in a room, well - were there no adults there who was surprised by this 'cop' giving them updates about the news from Oslo?

The age ranges were from 14-25, so there were adults there and the PM along with over govt people were going to visit the island. The island isn't so remote that they weren't aware of news in Oslo.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 05:33 PM
I don't think you can land on the island via helicopter, if there is no suitable pad to land or suitable cables in which you can slide down from the helicopter (which I imagine they didn't have). You need to arrive by a boat.

Exactly.

Vida
07-23-2011, 05:43 PM
terrible, unbelievable. and in Norway, of all places.

thoughts with the victims. they overshadow whatever that loser had in mind.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 05:49 PM
A bit cynical, but does sum up a lot of the foreign press.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QOb3RUaBiIY/TisASYopQqI/AAAAAAAADmA/9HCB5pwYQZ8/s1600/oslo.jpg

GugaF1
07-23-2011, 05:53 PM
Lol AJ that picture really tells it all.

kinski76
07-23-2011, 06:02 PM
Sadly, there are still people who cling to the Islamist conspiracy theories, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. According to one particular "friend" of mine, Behring Breivik is a homegrown jihadi on Al Qaeda's payroll.

tangerine_dream
07-23-2011, 06:06 PM
Unlike the ignorant anti-American faction here on MTF who danced on the WTC's grave when 9/11 happened, I won't say that Norway "deserved" to get bombed by a lunatic as I understand that innocent people have been murdered in the name of some unknown political agenda not of their doing. The Norwegian people have my sympathy and condolences, and I hope this tragedy won't alter their open society drastically.

This bombing by a likely lone wolf anti-government wingnut doesn't absolve Islamic terrorism which goes on a daily basis around the world. I don't understand people who express relief that the bomber wasn't a Muslim, as if that would make the senseless deaths more acceptable and palpable.


a right wing extremist with libertarian views. how fucking surprsing.
Because Norway has a history of these nutters bombing things all the time, right?

star
07-23-2011, 06:10 PM
So sorry for all those killed and their families.


This man seems to be terribly twisted. I read this. "One police official said the suspect made it clear that he “wants to explain himself.”

Even when he explains himself, it will make no sense -- just as all those who do these things have "reasons" but they make no sense to those on the outside.

I don't think you can pin acts like these on the "right" or the "left." It's not politics so much as someother impetus toward nihilism that is deep seated in the human psyche.
There will always be people who are attracted to it, and they will justify themselves one way or the other.

Tangy, I think the issue goes beyond religion or politics, and that's the point that I'm trying to make, not that a Christian terrorist absolves Muslim terrorists. It's not the religon that creates these people but something more basic.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 06:10 PM
Sadly, there are still people who cling to the Islamist conspiracy theories, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. According to one particular "friend" of mine, Behring Breivik is a homegrown jihadi on Al Qaeda's payroll.

Det finnes tullinger i alle etniske, kulturelle, religiøse og sosioøkonomiske grupper.

Hope they release the info of Breivik's accomplice, yes I heard he was a local cop who converted to Islam at one stage.

GugaF1
07-23-2011, 06:19 PM
Unlike the ignorant anti-American faction here on MTF who danced on the WTC's grave when 9/11 happened, I won't say that Norway "deserved" to get bombed by a lunatic as I understand that innocent people have been murdered in the name of some unknown political agenda not of their doing. The Norwegian people have my sympathy and condolences, and I hope this tragedy won't alter their open society drastically.

This bombing by a likely lone wolf anti-government wingnut doesn't absolve Islamic terrorism which goes on a daily basis around the world. I don't understand people who express relief that the bomber wasn't a Muslim, as if that would make the senseless deaths more acceptable and palpable.



Because Norway has a history of these nutters bombing things all the time, right?

No. Pay attention, It is not about "absolving the Muslims" is about credited international news organizations such as BBC and the NYT jumping the gun and as soon as it happened, looking to connect to Islam terrorist right away even in light of early evidence to the contrary.

The Islam extremist are a bucnh of thick headed bartards, as all extremists, but is not good when something like this happens and the reaction is to prejudice towards a certain group, get it? . And is not like there isn't a history of western "white" blue collar terrorism as well.

kinski76
07-23-2011, 06:23 PM
Det finnes tullinger i alle etniske, kulturelle, religiøse og sosioøkonomiske grupper.

Utvilsomt. Men den tvilsomme "fordelen", om man kan kalle det det, ved at islamistiske grupperinger angivelig i dette tilfellet ikke later til å være involvert, er at vi blir tvunget til å rette fokus bort fra de forhåndsutvalgte syndebukkene og ta et oppgjør med utskudd i "våre egne rekker". Overdreven patriotisme er også en form for fundamentalisme.

In other words, my main beef is with premature fingerpointing. In no way do I find any kind of extremism, whether situated on the left or the right, any more preferable than the other.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 06:26 PM
No. Pay attention, It is not about "absolving the Muslims" is about credited international news organizations such as BBC and the NYT jumping the gun and as soon as it happened, looking to connect to Islam terrorist right away even in light of early evidence to the contrary.

The Islam extremist are a bucnh of thick headed bartards, as all extremists, but is not good when something like this happens and the reaction is to prejudice towards a certain group, get it? . And is not like there isn't a history of western "white" blue collar terrorism as well.

Scapegoating of any group is wrong, this is why the Norwegian press deserve to be praised, when they were pushed on the issue of whether it was Islamic extremists. They answered it the right way.

Action Jackson
07-23-2011, 06:35 PM
Utvilsomt. Men den tvilsomme "fordelen", om man kan kalle det det, ved at islamistiske grupperinger angivelig i dette tilfellet ikke later til å være involvert, er at vi blir tvunget til å rette fokus bort fra de forhåndsutvalgte syndebukkene og ta et oppgjør med utskudd i "våre egne rekker". Overdreven patriotisme er også en form for fundamentalisme.

In other words, my main beef is with premature fingerpointing. In no way do I find any kind of extremism, whether situated on the left or the right, any more preferable than the other.

Yes, the whole thing with the 3 Muslim guys who were in trouble recently. It's not a massive problem, but there is an extreme right element in Norway. These people are coming out trying to get advantage out of this situation.

Fundamentalism in all forms suck.

star
07-23-2011, 06:37 PM
No. Pay attention, It is not about "absolving the Muslims" is about credited international news organizations such as BBC and the NYT jumping the gun and as soon as it happened, looking to connect to Islam terrorist right away even in light of early evidence to the contrary.

The Islam extremist are a bucnh of thick headed bartards, as all extremists, but is not good when something like this happens and the reaction is to prejudice towards a certain group, get it? . And is not like there isn't a history of western "white" blue collar terrorism as well.

It's just so much easier to hate and fear "them" rather than "us."

Timothy McVeigh is still a name and face I remember.

GugaF1
07-23-2011, 06:47 PM
It's just so much easier to hate and fear "them" rather than "us."

Timothy McVeigh is still a name and face I remember.

You don't even need to go back that far, how about the Arizona shooter guy recently.

Getta
07-23-2011, 06:56 PM
I don't think you can pin acts like these on the "right" or the "left." It's not politics so much as someother impetus toward nihilism that is deep seated in the human psyche.
There will always be people who are attracted to it, and they will justify themselves one way or the other.

Tangy, I think the issue goes beyond religion or politics, and that's the point that I'm trying to make, not that a Christian terrorist absolves Muslim terrorists. It's not the religon that creates these people but something more basic.

exactly.

you remember the deadly shooting spree at Virginia Tech four years ago. the vice-president of Virginia Tech said about the South Korean guy "he was a loner"...

Sunset of Age
07-23-2011, 08:06 PM
This is just too atrociously horrific to be even possible to put into proper words.
My commiserations with the Norwegian people. :sad: :hug:

Extremism, fundamentalism, whether inspired by religion (:help:) or political dumbshitness of either direction (:tape:)... this is the result of batshit crazy sociopaths wanting to make their mark. Goodheavens. Terrible.

Orka_n
07-23-2011, 08:43 PM
And as usual, the only thing this kind of horrific event really leads to is a country-wide sorrow and a united distaste towards whatever goals the perpetrator had in mind. Just beyond understanding.

Jimnik
07-23-2011, 09:16 PM
Completely shocked and horrified.

I pray for the victims - that they may rest in peace. For their families and friends - that they find strength to get through this.

fast_clay
07-23-2011, 09:23 PM
Fundamentalism in all forms suck.

the indirect attack on government policy on behalf of the extreme right...? a right that is gaining political momentum through many parts of western europe...

a man's right to vote is not nearly enough to satisfy the extreme fundamentalist...

kinski76
07-23-2011, 09:29 PM
Extremism, fundamentalism, whether inspired by religion (:help:) or political dumbshitness of either direction (:tape:)

From what I understand those are some of the key ingredients in his published 1500pg manifesto. The good thing is that he is now digging his own grave.It won't give 92 people their lives back, but hopefully he gives the authorities enough material to put him away for good.

The last 33 hours have moved at snail's pace, yesterday's events already feel like an eternity ago. I'll never again be able to drive past Tyrifjorden without getting a chill.

Boarder35m
07-23-2011, 09:31 PM
Political analysts in Germany say that this will lead to questioning the politics on immigrants and islam.
Would the posters from Norway confirm this?

At the moment I rather have the feeling that the majority of Norwegians say that they don´t want terrorists to influence society.

zeleni
07-23-2011, 09:53 PM
the indirect attack on government policy on behalf of the extreme right...? a right that is gaining political momentum through many parts of western europe...

a man's right to vote is not nearly enough to satisfy the extreme fundamentalist...

Democracy’s Dictionary (With Apologies to Ambrose Bierce) by Clyde N. Wilson (http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2011/07/19/democracys-dictionary-with-apologies-to-ambrose-bierce/)

Democracy has become an empty shell and rhetoric excuse for wars and all kind of dirty business.

Some people seem to be annoyed and concerned about that. And they are not allowed to speak up freely because politically correct Big Brother is marking them as extremists, fundamentalist, freaks, etc. My guess is that this kind of desperate action comes from their sentiment of helplessness, combined with appropriate individual character.

Jimnik
07-23-2011, 09:55 PM
Forget politics. This was pure psychopathy.

Sunset of Age
07-23-2011, 10:05 PM
From what I understand those are some of the key ingredients in his published 1500pg manifesto. The good thing is that he is now digging his own grave.It won't give 92 people their lives back, but hopefully he gives the authorities enough material to put him away for good.

There is no penalty existing to even come close to what this nutter deserves. The death penalty (which I am vehemently against, but that's beside the matter here) would be too kind for him. :o
If any god actually exists, I hope he rots in hell after a life-long sentence to prison, and even that's not enough.

The last 33 hours have moved at snail's pace, yesterday's events already feel like an eternity ago. I'll never again be able to drive past Tyrifjorden without getting a chill.

I can't even bear to think what your country is going through right now.
:hug: :hug: :hug:

Forget politics. This was pure psychopathy.

Absolutely.

Getta
07-23-2011, 10:06 PM
Forget politics. This was pure psychopathy.

pin this

then pin him

Dougie
07-23-2011, 10:09 PM
Democracy’s Dictionary (With Apologies to Ambrose Bierce) by Clyde N. Wilson (http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2011/07/19/democracys-dictionary-with-apologies-to-ambrose-bierce/)

Democracy has become an empty shell and rhetoric excuse for wars and all kind of dirty business.

Some people seem to be annoyed and concerned about that. And they are not allowed to speak up freely because politically correct Big Brother is marking them as extremists, fundamentalist, freaks, etc. My guess is that this kind of desperate action comes from their sentiment of helplessness, combined with appropriate individual character.

No offence, but that is pure crap. You almost make it sound like he was entitled to his actions. This was not a result of a worried individual who was concerned over the state of democracy. This kind of insane massacre has very little to do with politics. This is a result of a very sick mind, politics is merely the channel through which this sick person tries to justify his own actions.

The increased extreme right-favorism is a worrying issue in Europe, but when a person is sick enough to kill almost 100 people, it´s not about politics. That kind of person will always find "a reason" for himself, whther it´s politics, religion or whatever.

zeleni
07-23-2011, 10:11 PM
Forget politics. This was pure psychopathy.

Really?

I believe that "pure psychopathy" is on-going war against Lybia (that no one seems to be interested here) in which Norway is participating BTW. Wonder what Norwegians think about that war? Did anyone asked about that war? Do they care at all that their country is in war on another continent?

When is it allowed to "forget politics"?:)

Getta
07-23-2011, 10:13 PM
shut up zeleni

Dougie
07-23-2011, 10:18 PM
Really?

I believe that "pure psychopathy" is on-going war against Lybia (that no one seems to be interested here) in which Norway is participating BTW. Wonder what Norwegians think about that war? Did anyone asked about that war? Do they care at all that their country is in war on another continent?

When is it allowed to "forget politics"?:)

I don´t know which is more worrying, your attitude or your ignorance. Get your facts straight about the situation in Libya before you embarass yourself any further.

zeleni
07-23-2011, 10:23 PM
No offence, but that is pure crap. You almost make it sound like he was entitled to his actions. This was not a result of a worried individual who was concerned over the state of democracy. This kind of insane massacre has very little to do with politics. This is a result of a very sick mind, politics is merely the channel through which this sick person tries to justify his own actions.

The increased extreme right-favorism is a worrying issue in Europe, but when a person is sick enough to kill almost 100 people, it´s not about politics. That kind of person will always find "a reason" for himself, whther it´s politics, religion or whatever.

Did I deny that this is crime? No, I did not.
Does the murder deserve punishment. Of course he does. (As other murders do as well;))

Thought it was meaningless to come here and state the obvious...

Was reading today news reports that refer to political views of the accused person. So if press is allowed to speculate about his motives, why wouldn't I be allowed to comment it?

zeleni
07-23-2011, 10:25 PM
shut up zeleni

I will if Jimnik calls Sarkozy a pure psychopath.:D

fast_clay
07-23-2011, 10:26 PM
Democracy’s Dictionary (With Apologies to Ambrose Bierce) by Clyde N. Wilson (http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2011/07/19/democracys-dictionary-with-apologies-to-ambrose-bierce/)

Democracy has become an empty shell and rhetoric excuse for wars and all kind of dirty business.

Some people seem to be annoyed and concerned about that. And they are not allowed to speak up freely because politically correct Big Brother is marking them as extremists, fundamentalist, freaks, etc. My guess is that this kind of desperate action comes from their sentiment of helplessness, combined with appropriate individual character.

a massacre upon the very thing designed to engage youth...

zeleni
07-23-2011, 10:28 PM
I don´t know which is more worrying, your attitude or your ignorance. Get your facts straight about the situation in Libya before you embarass yourself any further.

Please teach me, oh wise and virtuous master.

Getta
07-23-2011, 10:28 PM
I will if Jimnik calls Sarkozy a pure psychopath.:D

a tiny bit off topic, but Sarkozy is a pure narcissist. :wavey:

zeleni
07-23-2011, 10:32 PM
a tiny bit off topic, but Sarkozy is a pure narcissist. :wavey:

A pure narcissist.:awww:

Pure narcissis is not pure psychopath.

And Getta is not Jimnik.:D

Gagsquet
07-23-2011, 10:34 PM
This guy was a loner. BTW, he likes guns videogames.
I agree with Getta and Jimnik.
He is deranged. Deranged guys like extremism.

Sane political driven persons don't shoot fellow-countryman teenagers.
Let's be serious.
He is disturbed, not political driven.
Don't invert cause and consequence.

kinski76
07-23-2011, 10:36 PM
Was reading today news reports that refer to political views of the accused person. So if press is allowed to speculate about his motives, why wouldn't I be allowed to comment it?

He describes himself as a Templar, and apparently thinks he's a character in World of Warcraft.

Dougie
07-23-2011, 10:41 PM
Please teach me, oh wise and virtuous master.

It is not a war against Libya, unless your idea of Libya is Gaddafi.

zeleni
07-23-2011, 10:44 PM
This guy was a loner. BTW, he likes guns videogames.
I agree with Getta and Jimnik.
He is deranged. Deranged guys like extremism.

Sane political driven persons don't shoot fellow-countryman teenagers.
Let's be serious.
He is disturbed, not political driven.
Don't invert cause and consequence.

He describes himself as a Templar, and apparently thinks he's a character in World of Warcraft.

So looners are not allowed to have political motives/excuses for their actions?

That is big statement.

Gagsquet
07-23-2011, 10:49 PM
Loners or not.
Political excuses for such an act are inadmissible.
You are deranged before being political driven when you made stuff like that.

zeleni
07-23-2011, 10:49 PM
It is not a war against Libya, unless your idea of Libya is Gaddafi.

So how many Gaddafis did NATO, the virtuous protector of human rights, democracy and civilians, kill last few months in Libya?

91? More?

zeleni
07-23-2011, 10:56 PM
Loners or not.
Political excuses for such an act are inadmissible.
You are deranged before being political driven when you made stuff like that.

Political excuses for killing innocent people are inadmissible, both for looners and non looners?

Agreed.:D

Manon
07-23-2011, 10:56 PM
Really?

I believe that "pure psychopathy" is on-going war against Lybia (that no one seems to be interested here) in which Norway is participating BTW. Wonder what Norwegians think about that war? Did anyone asked about that war? Do they care at all that their country is in war on another continent?

When is it allowed to "forget politics"?:)

Fail, epic.

Arkulari
07-23-2011, 11:01 PM
So fighting a war against people who are actually armed is worse than going to a youth camp and slaughter kids? :stupid:

If you want to protest the war then bomb a military camp or something, why does it always have to be the place where more civilians are? that's not war, that's terrorism.

JolánGagó
07-23-2011, 11:01 PM
Permanent fear of NATO one day bombing Belgrade again is cornestone to zeleni's thought.

zeleni
07-23-2011, 11:02 PM
Fail, epic.

Yes, you are. But don't worry.:hug:

Discrimination is forbidden by law. All marginal groups should be included in society.:D

fast_clay
07-23-2011, 11:03 PM
He describes himself as a Templar, and apparently thinks he's a character in World of Warcraft.

yeah... certainly could be a psychological match with the disconnected martin bryant type alright...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bryant

GugaF1
07-23-2011, 11:03 PM
So how many Gaddafis did NATO, the virtuous protector of human rights, democracy and civilians, kill last few months in Libya?

91? More?

So what is your point? Let Lybia be like what is happening in Syria for example? where there are little boys being killed and returned to their families mutulated, where protesters are killed at random? If it was up to me every single one of these dictators would be out of business where the population no longer support them, and is suffering and fighting for their indepndence and I surely am glad the the international community supports them as much as possible.

That is the difference (if that is what you are pointing out) between a Syria a Lybya, Egypt etc. from an Iraq In where there wasn't such an up rising from the population and it was more forceful by the US. That is why in my view, it caused so much trouble. But when the population had enough from a dictator, for sure they ought to be wholeheartedly suppoerted.

Orka_n
07-23-2011, 11:10 PM
So looners are not allowed to have political motives/excuses for their actions?

That is big statement.This is not a thread in which trolling is appreciated. Get a hold of yourself. There is no motive in the world that would justify slaughtering innocent people.

Manon
07-23-2011, 11:10 PM
Yes, you are. But don't worry.:hug:

Discrimination is forbidden by law. All marginal groups should be included in society.:D

I'm glad you posted this racist, ultras post. Gago is right, you're living in fear.

zeleni
07-23-2011, 11:12 PM
So fighting a war against people who are actually armed is worse than going to a youth camp and slaughter kids? :stupid:
You are right. Libyan kids are heavily armed...

If you want to protest the war then bomb a military camp or something, why does it always have to be the place where more civilians are? that's not war, that's terrorism.
Building of government in war is not legit target?

According to NATO, solution is smart bombs.:worship: Smart bombs do not kill civilians, but only terrorists and bad guys of all kinds...

Sunset of Age
07-23-2011, 11:12 PM
Yes, you are. But don't worry.:hug:

Discrimination is forbidden by law. All marginal groups should be included in society.:D

Yes, everyone is entitled to one's :stupid: opinion.
The mistake you make is that you think that we are entitled to know about that opinion of yours.

In other words: Please STOP. Just STOP IT.

Manon
07-23-2011, 11:12 PM
Back to the topic please. Green one (zeleni)?

GugaF1
07-23-2011, 11:19 PM
Yes, you are. But don't worry.:hug:

Discrimination is forbidden by law. All marginal groups should be included in society.:D

Right, no, maybe is better to give society a gun and let you take care of some marginal muslim business, eh? do you have some candy handy to give to the young boys? "society boy"

Arkulari
07-23-2011, 11:19 PM
You are right. Libyan kids are heavily armed...


Building of government in war is not legit target?

According to NATO, solution is smart bombs.:worship: Smart bombs do not kill civilians, but only terrorists and bad guys of all kinds...

http://i.imgur.com/kcBQf.jpg

Sorry for being rude but comments like these don't deserve any other answer.

rhinooooo
07-23-2011, 11:28 PM
I think this was a political act. Of course there has to be some sort of psychological issue for him to do something so extreme and cold-blooded.

However, he seemed a pretty intelligent guy judging by the extremist writings in his manifesto, his twitter post, his Youtube video, and the calculating way in which he committed this awful massacre.

His manifesto states that he was trying to "seize political and military control of Western European countries and implement a cultural conservative political agenda." He believed there was a "multicultural, Marxist-Islamic" agenda that was killing European civilization. And that he believed that the answer to this was terrorism/violence, as European society had been 'pacified', and may not be aware of this.

The problem with these terrorists, is their delusion in believing that these violent attacks on innocent people are going to somehow influence others into joining their cause or following them. Fortunately that doesn't happen, whether it's this massacre, or separatist groups, or Islamic radicals killing innocent tourists in Egypt - this often leads to society shunning the terrorist entities and rightfully dismissing them for their vile cruel acts.

However, the problem is that we are not in truly democratic societies. We are in societies wherein the larger interests are dictated by a smaller group of powerful, wealthy people who have influence over the political establishment, and also over mainstream information. You don't see truly engaged citizens. You don't see unbiased news coverage, you don't see the mainstream media encouraging understanding of different cultures,entities, or looking to tackle societal problems with reasonable debate based on information.

That is why we see the extreme right movement gaining momentum in the West, especially Europe. These groups don't share the methods, but DEFINITELY share some of the views that this killer had. They often have reasonable and understandable problems in their social/political lives, yet the causes they identify are more often that not wrong. Their views are shaped by ignorance, they're exploited by a shit system/media that encourage black&white thinking, that looks to provide sensationalist bullshit, and is more interested in soundbites/slogans than reasoned debate.

cobalt60
07-23-2011, 11:31 PM
shut up zeleni

I good repped you for the wrong post here. This one is better.

zeleni
07-23-2011, 11:36 PM
I see many "sensible souls" are shaken by this crime. Wonder why with this particular one... As if people don't get killed every day in terrorist attacks, executed by governments (and their affiliations) or looners...

Thought forum was place for free exchanging of views. Most of posters have different concept of this thread. They conceive it as sacred place for condolence statements.

Shall leave this thread. But shall open poll thread where all are invited.

Manon
07-23-2011, 11:39 PM
Shall leave this thread.

And don't look back my son.

Gagsquet
07-23-2011, 11:44 PM
However, he seemed a pretty intelligent guy judging by the extremist writings in his manifesto, his twitter post, his Youtube video, and the calculating way in which he committed this awful massacre.



I disagree.
To be able to quote philosophers, write rightly, planning an attack doesn't make you smart actually.
To be intelligent is managing to understand why extremism is the wrong way.

fast_clay
07-23-2011, 11:47 PM
I think this was a political act. Of course there has to be some sort of psychological issue for him to do something so extreme and cold-blooded.

However, he seemed a pretty intelligent guy judging by the extremist writings in his manifesto, his twitter post, his Youtube video, and the calculating way in which he committed this awful massacre.

His manifesto states that he was trying to "seize political and military control of Western European countries and implement a cultural conservative political agenda." He believed there was a "multicultural, Marxist-Islamic" agenda that was killing European civilization. And that he believed that the answer to this was terrorism/violence, as European society had been 'pacified', and may not be aware of this.

The problem with these terrorists, is their delusion in believing that these violent attacks on innocent people are going to somehow influence others into joining their cause or following them. Fortunately that doesn't happen, whether it's this massacre, or separatist groups, or Islamic radicals killing innocent tourists in Egypt - this often leads to society shunning the terrorist entities and rightfully dismissing them for their vile cruel acts.

However, the problem is that we are not in truly democratic societies. We are in societies wherein the larger interests are dictated by a smaller group of powerful, wealthy people who have influence over the political establishment, and also over mainstream information. You don't see truly engaged citizens. You don't see unbiased news coverage, you don't see the mainstream media encouraging understanding of different cultures,entities, or looking to tackle societal problems with reasonable debate based on information.

That is why we see the extreme right movement gaining momentum in the West, especially Europe. These groups don't share the methods, but DEFINITELY share some of the views that this killer had. They often have reasonable and understandable problems in their social/political lives, yet the causes they identify are more often that not wrong. Their views are shaped by ignorance, they're exploited by a shit system/media that encourage black&white thinking, that looks to provide sensationalist bullshit, and is more interested in soundbites/slogans than reasoned debate.

quality post...

indeed, there a general dumbing down of information that finds its way to the public... somewhat skewed sensationalist views coupled with both obvious and unknown political agenda are increasingly used to capture the 'market share' which are very much NOT the conditions that make for a well informed and balanced opinion, and thus, a well educated public on social affairs... as far as the EAST vs WEST extreme fundamentalist thing goes, well, for every action there might be an reaction that balances it - although this WESTERN version sees itself turn upon it's own...

sickening...

Jimnik
07-23-2011, 11:52 PM
However, he seemed a pretty intelligent guy judging by the extremist writings in his manifesto, his twitter post, his Youtube video, and the calculating way in which he committed this awful massacre.
You just described a textbook psychopath.

buddyholly
07-23-2011, 11:53 PM
quality post...

indeed, there a general dumbing down of information that finds its way to the public... somewhat skewed sensationalist views are increasingly used to capture the 'market share' which are very much NOT the conditions that make for a well informed and balanced opinion, and thus, a well educated public on social affairs...

Just like someone who says he didn't enjoy his holiday in Venice because there were too many tourists around, here you are claiming that you are not a member of the public because the public is not educated.

Don't you see how self-deluding that view is?

fast_clay
07-24-2011, 12:00 AM
Just like someone who says he didn't enjoy his holiday in Venice because there were too many tourists around, here you are claiming that you are not a member of the public because the public is not educated.

Don't you see how self-deluding that view is?

then, lucky i'm not a yank in Venice needing 'fries with that (everything)'... huh...?

self deluding...? perhaps, but maybe my eyes are your eyes too buddyholly... maybe, just maybe, i chose not to switch on the television...

and so, where do you find your brand of the truth buddyholly...?

rhinooooo
07-24-2011, 12:01 AM
I disagree.
To be able to quote philosophers, write rightly, planning an attack doesn't make you smart actually.
To be intelligent is managing to understand why extremism is the wrong way.

Intelligence can have a wide-ranging definition. Maybe it's not even the correct word. You and I, maybe we're intelligent people who can acknowledge that this act is wrong.

However, the way he formulates and expresses his thoughts coupled with the cold and calculating way in which he committed this atrocity suggest some degree of sophistication.

My main points are: I 100% disagree with your insinuation that he is simply a 'loner'. This guy has acted completely on his political beliefs, this was a political act, and he sees this as some sort of 'crusade'.

I believe his views are very ignorant. But these views are DEFINITELY gaining popularity. The far right nationalistic, anti-immigrant and islamophobic views are gaining ground. And these views are being pushed in the mainstream, and are often not discussed in a rational, neutral manner.

If this were an Islamic terrorist, we would identify that it was an extremist, but we would label it a politically motivated attack - which is what terrorism is. The mainstream media including some political figures were ready to pounce on this yesterday.

Now, we have a guy who has committed the worst killing by a single perpetrator in recorded history, and who has expressed the political beliefs behind it, but somehow we're going to just dismiss him as a loner, a madman?

You can read some of his manifesto stuff here:
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/07/23/what_did_the_oslo_killer_want

edit: His whole manifesto is here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/60740932/2083-a-European-Declaration-of-Independence

Not reading it, but some may be interested, it's massive for fucks sake.

buddyholly
07-24-2011, 12:08 AM
and so, where do you find your brand of the truth buddyholly...?

Reading abraxas on MTF.

fast_clay
07-24-2011, 12:13 AM
Reading abraxas on MTF.

you'll forgive me if i choose not to accept your version of the truth...

Gagsquet
07-24-2011, 12:18 AM
Intelligence can have a wide-ranging definition. Maybe it's not even the correct word. You and I, maybe we're intelligent people who can acknowledge that this act is wrong.

However, the way he formulates and expresses his thoughts coupled with the cold and calculating way in which he committed this atrocity suggest some degree of sophistication.

My main points are: I 100% disagree with your insinuation that he is simply a 'loner'. This guy has acted completely on his political beliefs, this was a political act, and he sees this as some sort of 'crusade'.

I believe his views are very ignorant. But these views are DEFINITELY gaining popularity. The far right nationalistic, anti-immigrant and islamophobic views are gaining ground. And these views are being pushed in the mainstream, and are often not discussed in a rational, neutral manner.

If this were an Islamic terrorist, we would identify that it was an extremist, but we would label it a politically motivated attack - which is what terrorism is. The mainstream media including some political figures were ready to pounce on this yesterday.

Now, we have a guy who has committed the worst killing by a single perpetrator in recorded history, and who has expressed the political beliefs behind it, but somehow we're going to just dismiss him as a loner, a madman?

You can read some of his manifesto stuff here:
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/07/23/what_did_the_oslo_killer_want


I'm not saying he is simply a loner. But, I pretend the fact he is a deranged lonely guy ends up to this dreadful act.
I'm convinced he is disturbed before being political driven.
But I agree with you on the fact he is representative of right nationalistic, anti-immigrant and islamophobic views on the rise in our western societies.
But, political dimension is secondary in this particular act.

Ivanatis
07-24-2011, 12:19 AM
unreal stuff, simply horrible

hope his fascist arse rots in some tiny cell for at least the next 60 years; and they should hand him a dozen aggressive wasps with his daily bread and water

wouldnt be surprised if he got another bomb placed somewhere, can't believe that, with his ruthless determination, he relied on a single one detonating to detract attention from his primary crime scene

worst thing is you can't really prevent this kind of stuff, only limit the damage if you're lucky

fast_clay
07-24-2011, 12:22 AM
You just described a textbook psychopath.

its the nature versus nurture argument... genetics might decide the predisposition for a killer... environment might decide who gets killed...

rhinooooo
07-24-2011, 12:29 AM
You just described a textbook psychopath.

Yep, he's a psychopath. But intelligence/smart is not a 100% measurable trait. It is not black and white. In fact all people can be intelligent/smart in relation to some things and ignorant/stupid to others. There are many vile reprehensible ****s and scumbags littered throughout the world and human history, who have committed vile acts, who likely had psychological issues too, but were undoubtedly slightly intelligent or smart. That does not mean I'm making a positive judgment on them, it's just recognising a trait.

Grassquet - yep, fair enough.

fast_clay - great point there...

abraxas21
07-24-2011, 12:30 AM
If you want to dispute this with holly that's fine, just not in here. I mean the Norwegian press and police were telling people to wait until they find people responsible, not to scapegoat of course some still did it.

I cant say anything against the norwegian press. hell, i can't even understand the language. im just saying a lot of people in the west assumed and pretty much wanted this to be some sort of islamic terror attack. i don't quite understand why you are getting so defensive over the norwegian press when absolutely no-one here has made any comment against it.


What aren't you understanding the police were tied up with the bombing in Oslo, as the people wanted. Can only get to Utøya by boat or helicopter, plus it's 40km away. Think about it, this is not the right time for questioning the police review, but it will happen soon enough.

i do understand it and i even acknowledged precisely that in my post. but, come on, between 1 and 2 hours to get to an island where some nutcase is shooting everyone on sight? way too slow. and now that i think of it, the fact that a terror attack in oslo had happened some time earlier should have had some SWAT-like teams ready to go in helicopters or whatnot.

im not sure what the right time is for questioning something like this... to me this kind of questions come naturally but perhaps i'd be feeling different if i was in norway or had relatives there.

abraxas21
07-24-2011, 12:55 AM
So fighting a war against people who are actually armed is worse than going to a youth camp and slaughter kids? :stupid:

If you want to protest the war then bomb a military camp or something, why does it always have to be the place where more civilians are? that's not war, that's terrorism.

you must be living in a box if you think your country and others in europe don't engage in terrorist tactics. zeleni's point about what's happening in libya is very valid and the europeans and the yanks should think about it more. then again, it must be said that this is not the place (thread) to bring that subject on. on the other hand, if you were to start a thread about libya, i reckon not many MTFers would care to post there.

abraxas21
07-24-2011, 01:07 AM
I see many "sensible souls" are shaken by this crime. Wonder why with this particular one... As if people don't get killed every day in terrorist attacks, executed by governments (and their affiliations) or looners...

Thought forum was place for free exchanging of views. Most of posters have different concept of this thread. They conceive it as sacred place for condolence statements.

Shall leave this thread. But shall open poll thread where all are invited.

well, you know i raised that same point earlier in this thread. terrorist attacks happen every month in poor countries with brown people and virtunally nobody gives a crap but when it happens in a rich western one suddenly everyone cares and everyone is sad. but it's better to stay quiet on these matters or else we might bother the good consciences of the good people of MTF.

abraxas21
07-24-2011, 01:14 AM
Reading abraxas on MTF.

:D

clearly you aren't working hard enough with that

Arkulari
07-24-2011, 01:48 AM
you must be living in a box if you think your country and others in europe don't engage in terrorist tactics. zeleni's point about what's happening in libya is very valid and the europeans and the yanks should think about it more. then again, it must be said that this is not the place (thread) to bring that subject on. on the other hand, if you were to start a thread about libya, i reckon not many MTFers would care to post there.

In a war civilians die, that's a given. But the countries sending people also lose their own because the enemies have the capacity of fighting back, look at Afghanistan for example, USA is the biggest military potency of the world and they haven't been able to win the war.

Some wars like Iraq and Afghanistan are stupid and only serve to measure the dick of the countries involved, in Libya many people wanted Gadafi gone and NATO send troops to kick the guy out, unsuccesfully BTW.

You just cannot compare the situations.

And I think this is shocking because people have a view of Norway being perfect and that these kinds of things never happened there, but they do.

The point is: this dude comes out, rounds up a group of youngsters and starts shooting with no warning, they weren't able to defend themselves.

abraxas21
07-24-2011, 02:20 AM
In a war civilians die, that's a given. But the countries sending people also lose their own because the enemies have the capacity of fighting back, look at Afghanistan for example, USA is the biggest military potency of the world and they haven't been able to win the war.

Some wars like Iraq and Afghanistan are stupid and only serve to measure the dick of the countries involved, in Libya many people wanted Gadafi gone and NATO send troops to kick the guy out, unsuccesfully BTW.

You just cannot compare the situations.

And I think this is shocking because people have a view of Norway being perfect and that these kinds of things never happened there, but they do.

The point is: this dude comes out, rounds up a group of youngsters and starts shooting with no warning, they weren't able to defend themselves.

no offense, arkulari, but there are so many things wrong in this post that i dont even know where to start. it's easier to make a list

1- who cares about 'fighting back'... i wonder how the civilians of that kunduz province felt about 'fighting back' when the NATO's "smart bombs" fell onto their heads. I guess they needed you to tell them to 'defend themselves' and to 'fight back'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_airstrike. Like Kunduz there are many other examples but the good people of MTF don't care enough for that, or so it seems.

2- The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't to 'measure dicks'. There are wars that respond to strategic interests from western countries. It's actually the same in Libya. If you think the people of the West want to take gadaffi to help the civilians in Libya, then im sorry to say you're just fooling yourslef.

3- i am not trying to equate what happened in norway with what goes on in Libya or Afghanistan or whatnot. The norwegian case is certainly awful in its own right and i truly wish it had never happened BUT at the same time it helps to recgonize the reactions from the people here and how these events shock the average joe and how this contrasts with what happens when some dirt poor country is bombed, something which the western gvt have a lot of responsibility to claim for.

Arkulari
07-24-2011, 02:33 AM
no offense, arkulari, but there are so many things wrong in this post that i dont even know where to start. it's easier to make a list

1- who cares about 'fighting back'... i wonder how the civilians of that kunduz province felt about 'fighting back' when the NATO's "smart bombs" fell onto their heads. I guess they needed you to tell them to 'defend themselves' and to 'fight back'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_airstrike. Like Kunduz there are many other examples but the good people of MTF don't care enough for that, or so it seems.

3- i am not trying to equate what happened in norway with what goes on in Libya or Afghanistan or whatnot. The norwegian case is certainly awful in its own right and i truly wish it had never happened BUT at the same time it helps to recgonize the reactions from the people here and how these events shock the average joe and how this contrasts with what happens when some dirt poor country is bombed, something which the western gvt have a lot of responsibility to claim for.

First: my case is developed around the shooting, not the bombing.

So Libya is a farmer country with no military? wars are terrible and of course civilians die but it is much different to round up into a bunch of unarmed kids.

I'm talking about the everyday combat, where people have the chance to fight back, the smart bombs are just like terrorist bombing and I agree with you it is unfair and just as bad as bombing civilians in any western town.

It's almost as if zeleni is saying that it was deserved because of what happened in Libya and that's simply not fair.

And this hits close to home in my particular case because I'm half Norwegian and I have family and friends there.

abraxas21
07-24-2011, 02:45 AM
And this hits close to home in my particular case because I'm half Norwegian and I have family and friends there.

i know and im wasnt referring to you specifically with that... i was talking about the western attitude in general

Arkulari
07-24-2011, 02:49 AM
i know and im wasnt referring to you specifically with that... i was talking about the western attitude in general

That is true but like I said, it's like people think Norway is above those things, a "perfect" land so it is shocking for many.

abraxas21
07-24-2011, 03:04 AM
That is true but like I said, it's like people think Norway is above those things, a "perfect" land so it is shocking for many.

very true but theres more to it than that.

all in all, i think the media reaction to this has been appropriate in terms of the importance the media has given to it. i for one have certainly read a lot about this and i assume many others cared a lot as well. however, what i dont like is when mass events of deaths go nearly unnoticed. the media bias is evident.

buddyholly
07-24-2011, 03:09 AM
If you think the people of the West want to take gadaffi to help the civilians in Libya, then im sorry to say you're just fooling yourslef.



Right, I want him taken down to avenge the PanAm bombing. But if a few less innocent Libyan civilians get ***** and tortured by his sons and thugs, then that will be a bonus.

Arkulari
07-24-2011, 03:15 AM
very true but theres more to it than that.

all in all, i think the media reaction to this has been appropriate in terms of the importance the media has given to it. i for one have certainly read a lot about this and i assume many others cared a lot as well. however, what i dont like is when mass events of deaths go nearly unnoticed. the media bias is evident.

yes, because it goes against the idea of ZOMG WESTERN CIVILIZATION IS PERFECT AND NOTHING WRONG HAPPENS IN RICH COUNTRIES, in Bloomberg (I think) they said this was an attack on Western values, never mind it was from a far right xenophobic extremist :stupid:

In poorer countries is almost like they say: oh, those poor guys should already be used to it :rolleyes:

buddyholly
07-24-2011, 03:15 AM
what i dont like is when mass events of deaths go nearly unnoticed. the media bias is evident.

Well it is simply that a terrorist attack in Norway is so rare as to be big news.
On the other hand, a terrorist attack in Pakistan is a regularly occurring event.
When the day comes that there is a daily massacre in Norway by a loner, the reports will move to the inside pages.

But this is probably too simple for you to accept because the only bias it shows is that repetitive and predictable events become less and less newsworthy - and there is no evil intent in this.

buddyholly
07-24-2011, 03:29 AM
in Bloomberg (I think) they said this was an attack on Western values, never mind it was from a far right xenophobic extremist :stupid:



There seems to be a non sequitor here. Are you saying that Western values are defined by right wing xenophobic extremism? Western values are clearly the least xenophobic of all.

Arkulari
07-24-2011, 04:15 AM
There seems to be a non sequitor here. Are you saying that Western values are defined by right wing xenophobic extremism? Western values are clearly the least xenophobic of all.

You're right I didn't tell the whole story: according to them, this guy shouldn't have attacked because the Western world had the same values he had, that they expected this from Muslims but not from a born and bred Norwegian like him :stupid:

Or Levy
07-24-2011, 05:33 AM
In a country who never had any kind of domestic terrorism, and was recently involved in the war in Lybia and Afghanistan - international terrorism was a very reasonable first assumption. And lets not forget, then they only knew about the bombing in Oslo, which is textbook for an international terrorism attack. Once words of the shooting came out, it looked less likely.

Action Jackson
07-24-2011, 06:41 AM
I cant say anything against the norwegian press. hell, i can't even understand the language. im just saying a lot of people in the west assumed and pretty much wanted this to be some sort of islamic terror attack. i don't quite understand why you are getting so defensive over the norwegian press when absolutely no-one here has made any comment against it.

i do understand it and i even acknowledged precisely that in my post. but, come on, between 1 and 2 hours to get to an island where some nutcase is shooting everyone on sight? way too slow. and now that i think of it, the fact that a terror attack in oslo had happened some time earlier should have had some SWAT-like teams ready to go in helicopters or whatnot.

im not sure what the right time is for questioning something like this... to me this kind of questions come naturally but perhaps i'd be feeling different if i was in norway or had relatives there.

You do know I'm Norwegian as for being defensive, well I can't control what angle the international press are going to pursue without knowing all of the facts and that it suits certain interests to scapegoat minority groups.

There is going to be a thorough investigation into the police performance, but they are still gathering evidence, sending a submarine to search for bodies.

Hindsight is fantastic.

ibreak4coffee
07-24-2011, 07:27 AM
Forget politics. This was pure psychopathy.

+1

JolánGagó
07-24-2011, 09:46 AM
no offense, arkulari, but there are so many things wrong in this post that i dont even know where to start. it's easier to make a list

1- who cares about 'fighting back'... i wonder how the civilians of that kunduz province felt about 'fighting back' when the NATO's "smart bombs" fell onto their heads. I guess they needed you to tell them to 'defend themselves' and to 'fight back'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_airstrike. Like Kunduz there are many other examples but the good people of MTF don't care enough for that, or so it seems.

I don't recall you so worried, hell not even a hundreth as worried, for the civilians killed by Gaddafi and Assad. You're totally phoney.

GugaF1
07-24-2011, 09:59 AM
you must be living in a box if you think your country and others in europe don't engage in terrorist tactics. zeleni's point about what's happening in libya is very valid and the europeans and the yanks should think about it more. then again, it must be said that this is not the place (thread) to bring that subject on. on the other hand, if you were to start a thread about libya, i reckon not many MTFers would care to post there.

Man, I consider myself much more towards the left a pregressive or a liberal it varies depending on the country. But you are a clear case for me that even people on the left can be a closed minded idealogue extreme. Yeah, right no need for interventions ever in the world from the UN, the Western is only selfish taking care of its own interest bla, bla bla.

Until there is a world goverment, which is problably the only responsible situation for the human kind, there is bond to be conflicts around the world. Specially in a world like nowdays, globalized people more conected than ever, yet, there are still some places backwards like Lybia, Syria who live in an old age goverment with dumb asses dictators. And when there is a civil war in a country, for sure I will be on the side of those wanting democracy and Western values, which most of the world aspires to have.

I don't believe you can forcefully impose those values, of course. But when the population themselves rises for it then I am all for supporting them.

buddyholly
07-24-2011, 11:44 AM
Man, I consider myself much more towards the left a pregressive or a liberal it varies depending on the country. But you are a clear case for me that even people on the left can be a closed minded idealogue extreme. Yeah, right no need for interventions ever in the world from the UN, the Western is only selfish taking care of its own interest bla, bla bla.



Some people, like yourself, recognise that other people may have different opinions.
Other people, like abraxas, can only recognise that other people are wrong.

zeleni
07-24-2011, 12:03 PM
Was 7 years younger but I do remember. When terrorists attacked primary school in Beslan on September 1st 2004, CNN and BBC were reporting about it. They called terrorists:

"armed man"
"gunmen"
"hostage takers"
"Chechen rebels"

Word "terrorist" could only be heard when official statements of Russian government were quoted. For CNN editors attack on primary school was not enough to qualify its protagonists as terrorist. And some would have expected more sensitivity after 9/11...

Of course numerous experts were asked to explain the background of the whole event and the main bad guy was Vladimir Putin.:D Even terrorists representative (with asylum in London:D) was called to speak up and blame terrible Putin for attack.:D

However, when terrorist attack occurs in some other countries no background is possible, no political motives are allowed. It's just pure evil, psychopaths and loners. And anyone who asks questions is vicious, insensible prick.

Action Jackson
07-24-2011, 12:13 PM
This thread is about the attacks in Norway, not what happened in Serbia, Chechnya, Libya, Syria, Somalia or whatever else not connected to Breivik and the massacre.

FormerRafaFan
07-24-2011, 01:56 PM
I see many "sensible souls" are shaken by this crime. Wonder why with this particular one... As if people don't get killed every day in terrorist attacks, executed by governments (and their affiliations) or looners...

Thought forum was place for free exchanging of views. Most of posters have different concept of this thread. They conceive it as sacred place for condolence statements.

Shall leave this thread. But shall open poll thread where all are invited.

I reported this post. No sane person can agree with what this lunatic did, or condone his actions, like you are doing. I hope you get a lifetime ban.

I shouldn't reply to this, but I will anyway.

1. Who has ever said those other terrorist attacks are less awful then what happened in Norway? ALL terrorist attacks are just as bad, no matter who are behind it, or what their motives are.

2. You ask why people were shaken with this crime? Oh, I don't know.. maybe because it was a lunatic gunman going around killing 80 kids on an island where they were trapped with no option to get away... maybe that?

JolánGagó
07-24-2011, 02:19 PM
I reported this post. No sane person can agree with what this lunatic did, or condone his actions, like you are doing. I hope you get a lifetime ban.

He isn't condoning nor agreeing in that post.

kinski76
07-24-2011, 02:37 PM
you must be living in a box if you think your country and others in europe don't engage in terrorist tactics. zeleni's point about what's happening in libya is very valid and the europeans and the yanks should think about it more. then again, it must be said that this is not the place (thread) to bring that subject on. on the other hand, if you were to start a thread about libya, i reckon not many MTFers would care to post there.

I don't have a problem with the views you have expressed. But as well as being off-topic to this particular thread, the timing simply isn't right, imo. Did I feel, in the weeks and months after 9/11, that these attacks and the effects of them were given an exaggerated amount of attention, to the exclusion of everything else? That the constant tributes, retrospectives and analyses in international media was excessive, even in poor taste? That there was a certain monopolizing of human suffering going on in the rich industrialized part of the world, since such attacks happen every day in less fortunate parts of the world without it attracting similar attention? Yes on all accounts. Did I go online to make a point about it on the day of the attack or the first few days shortly thereafter? No, because my knee-jerk response to events on such a scale is usually empathy for the innocent people involved. Cynicism usually follows later.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the media. Is what happened in Norway important enough on an international scale to merit the kind of responses that it does? I don't know. I suspect that if this had happened ten years ago, before 9/11 and the focus it brought to the issue of international terrorism, the approach of the foreign press would be highly different. Why Norwegian media cover the recent events extensively should be obvious to anyone. My personal involvement probably prevents me from being completely unbiased, so I should stay out of this discussion altogether.

munZe konZa
07-24-2011, 02:54 PM
it says that he was a misguided and delusional pro israeli fanatic that decided to kill those youths because they were supposedly hosting palestinian groups and were advocating sanctions on israel.

cobalt60
07-24-2011, 03:15 PM
it says that he was a misguided and delusional pro israeli fanatic that decided to kill those youths because they were supposedly hosting palestinian groups and were advocating sanctions on israel.

Be careful what you read on the web; I did not find that anywhere.

Action Jackson
07-24-2011, 03:21 PM
Be careful what you read on the web; I did not find that anywhere.

There was this link, but Munze isn't the most reliable.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/07/24/3088679/norway-killer-espoused-new-right-wing-pro-israel-philosophy

cobalt60
07-24-2011, 03:27 PM
Well I would not consider that site all that reliable.
He is a right wing fundamentalist more interested in keeping Norway full of his ancestors. Which would not include Jews.

Action Jackson
07-24-2011, 03:32 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/24/oslo-terror-attacks-leaky-police-boat_n_907986.html

Oslo Terror Attacks: Leaky Police Boat Slowed Access To Utoya Island

OSLO (Reuters) - The near-sinking of a police boat and a decision to await a specially armed unit from Oslo some 45 km (28 miles) away delayed the Norwegian police response to an island where a gunman killed 86 people.

"When so many people and equipment were put into it, the boat started to take on water, so that the motor stopped," said Erik Berga, police operations chief in northern Buskerud County.

"The boat was way too small and way too poor," he said, referring to a police vessel that had been transported to the scene from nearby Hoenefoss for crossing to Utoeya island.

The shooter, 32-year-old Anders Behring Breivik, went about his deadly work undisturbed by police for an hour after the first reports of gunfire, other police officials said Sunday, revising a previous estimate of almost 90 minutes.

Sissel Hammer, the police chief in Hoenefoss, said she understood why critics "think it took too long for the police to come" but said they had moved as quickly as possible.

"I ask for understanding of the fact that it takes time to send out a special armed force," Hammer said in a statement.


"The personnel have to be notified, they must put on protective gear, arm themselves and get out to the area."

Saturday the acting police chief in Oslo, Sveinung Sponheim, said the shooter spent almost 90 minutes firing at young Labor Party members as they fled around the island or dived into the large Tyrifjord lake.

Sponheim said Sunday his previous estimate was "a bit high" and defended his special anti-terror unit's decision to travel some 45 km to the scene by road instead by helicopter.

"It was faster going by car," he said, "because we would have had to get a helicopter from the base down south and that would have taken longer."

He said the only helicopter available to the Oslo-based unit was parked 50 to 60 km south of the capital at Rygge airport.

Critics within the police have long complained that the "Delta" anti-terrorism unit is short of transport capacity.

Berga said that when Oslo's Delta unit arrived at the pier across from Utoeya its leaders commandeered recreational boats to cross over.

Police sources said there had been much internal police debate over whether the first responders should have approached the island without waiting for the Oslo force.

Police released a timeline showing that the Hoenefoss police station first received reports of a shooting at 5:27 p.m. (11:27 a.m. EDT). Local officers arrived at a pier across the water from the island at 5:52 p.m., but had to "wait for a suitable boat."

From 6:09 p.m., when the specially equipped tactical police officers from Oslo arrived at the pier, it took 16 minutes for them to arrive on Utoeya, and only another two minutes before the gunman surrendered without resistance, the police said.

GugaF1
07-24-2011, 05:04 PM
Damn, the police from Norway reminds me of that movie with Stallone the Demolion man, I even remeber a quote from it "we are only police officer we are not ready to handle this kind of violence" As Wesley snipes was killing some people.

abraxas21
07-24-2011, 06:26 PM
You do know I'm Norwegian as for being defensive, well I can't control what angle the international press are going to pursue without knowing all of the facts and that it suits certain interests to scapegoat minority groups.

There is going to be a thorough investigation into the police performance, but they are still gathering evidence, sending a submarine to search for bodies.

i actually thought you were from iceland. i wish you and your nation the best in these awful times. if anything, these maniacs don't realize that with their terror they only manage to make the people hate their causes and the values they represent.

Hindsight is fantastic.

well, i won't deny that. like they say in my country, 'everyone is a colonel after the war'.

abraxas21
07-24-2011, 06:38 PM
I don't recall you so worried, hell not even a hundreth as worried, for the civilians killed by Gaddafi and Assad. You're totally phoney.

how would you know how i felt? and furthermore, even if you're right, should i have?

i hold a basic premise, when western countries meddle into other countries' affairs = shit is going down. western políticos are (like pretty much all politicians for that matter) too concerned about their own interests and preserving their own hegemony. to believe they act on behalf of the common people of a random poor country is simply miles away from reality.

all in all, just give the countries the chances to develop by themselves in time and you'll be surprised by the results on the long term. intereference from outside forces should only be considered as a last resort or when the situation pretty much amounts to genocide but generally speaking it shouldn't even be considered. if recent history has shown us anything is that poor peoples can make an uprising against a powerful dictatorship even when it's backed by the western powers. for references, check the egyptian case.

abraxas21
07-24-2011, 06:44 PM
Man, I consider myself much more towards the left a pregressive or a liberal it varies depending on the country. But you are a clear case for me that even people on the left can be a closed minded idealogue extreme. Yeah, right no need for interventions ever in the world from the UN, the Western is only selfish taking care of its own interest bla, bla bla.

right. well, you keep believing what you want to believe. if believing that the west makes wars in poor countries to help the poor and oppressed inhabitants makes you sleep better at night, then go for it. i won't mind.

Until there is a world goverment, which is problably the only responsible situation for the human kind, there is bond to be conflicts around the world. Specially in a world like nowdays, globalized people more conected than ever, yet, there are still some places backwards like Lybia, Syria who live in an old age goverment with dumb asses dictators.

what you don't realize is that many of those 'dumb ass dictators' were at one time supported by the western gvts that then switched sides. why should i trust them? they've given me no reason for me to do so and if past history tells me anything is that i should actually distrust them.

And when there is a civil war in a country, for sure I will be on the side of those wanting democracy and Western values, which most of the world aspires to have.

:lol: this is good stuff

I don't believe you can forcefully impose those values, of course. But when the population themselves rises for it then I am all for supporting them.

i tell you something, support whoever you want but when you do, be sure you know the real motives. at the end of the day it won't matter much what you believe or even who you support, though.

abraxas21
07-24-2011, 06:48 PM
I don't have a problem with the views you have expressed. But as well as being off-topic to this particular thread, the timing simply isn't right, imo. Did I feel, in the weeks and months after 9/11, that these attacks and the effects of them were given an exaggerated amount of attention, to the exclusion of everything else? That the constant tributes, retrospectives and analyses in international media was excessive, even in poor taste? That there was a certain monopolizing of human suffering going on in the rich industrialized part of the world, since such attacks happen every day in less fortunate parts of the world without it attracting similar attention? Yes on all accounts. Did I go online to make a point about it on the day of the attack or the first few days shortly thereafter? No, because my knee-jerk response to events on such a scale is usually empathy for the innocent people involved. Cynicism usually follows later.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the media. Is what happened in Norway important enough on an international scale to merit the kind of responses that it does? I don't know. I suspect that if this had happened ten years ago, before 9/11 and the focus it brought to the issue of international terrorism, the approach of the foreign press would be highly different. Why Norwegian media cover the recent events extensively should be obvious to anyone. My personal involvement probably prevents me from being completely unbiased, so I should stay out of this discussion altogether.

i agree with you in full and i understand the importance this has received. in fact, i think the importance given by the international media is very valid and totally justified here.

Tom Cosgrove
07-24-2011, 06:55 PM
1 death is too many...

abraxas21
07-24-2011, 07:01 PM
Well it is simply that a terrorist attack in Norway is so rare as to be big news.
On the other hand, a terrorist attack in Pakistan is a regularly occurring event.
When the day comes that there is a daily massacre in Norway by a loner, the reports will move to the inside pages.

But this is probably too simple for you to accept because the only bias it shows is that repetitive and predictable events become less and less newsworthy - and there is no evil intent in this.

arkulari raised that same point earlier and admitedly she has a point but it obviously doesnt explain the whole story, as she and i know. then again, you take as your explanation and disregard the rest. the simpler, the better.


but it is what it is and i'm frankly tired of arguing. to finish, i just wish the best to the families and to the norwegians in these hard times. im sure they'll emerge greater than ever. countries usually do after these incidents.

Or Levy
07-24-2011, 07:23 PM
80 dead kids and teens is irregular and abnormal for a terrorist attack ANYWHERE. The fact that it was done by shooting and executing them, one by one, is also rare. (Someone in the Norwegian police would eventually pay with his head for this).

This is part of the reason why this is getting so much attention.

tangerine_dream
07-24-2011, 08:27 PM
im just saying a lot of people in the west assumed and pretty much wanted this to be some sort of islamic terror attack.
Didn't some Islamic group take credit for the bombing before the truth was learned?

And is it really so unreasonable of people to assume this terrorist act was the work of Al Qaeda? How many terrorist attacks does Al Qaeda and their ilk carry out every week compared to far-right or far-left-wing types like Breivik?

icedevil0289
07-24-2011, 08:30 PM
Didn't some Islamic group take credit for the bombing before the truth was learned?

And is it really so unreasonable of people to assume this latest terrorist was the work of Al Qaeda? How many terrorist attacks does Al Qaeda and their ilk carry out every week compared to far-right or far-left-wing types like Breivik?

you don't think islamophobia has even a little something do with people's assumptions?

zeleni
07-24-2011, 08:38 PM
I think Islamophobia has to do something with Islam...

JolánGagó
07-24-2011, 08:40 PM
Facts speak loud.

Most attacks of the kind all over the world have come from extremist islamist forces, that's a loud fact.

icedevil0289
07-24-2011, 08:52 PM
I think Islamophobia has to do something with Islam...

that's a wonderful thing to say. :rolleyes:

or it has something to do with people generalizing a whole religion and how the media portrays muslims as well.

icedevil0289
07-24-2011, 08:59 PM
Facts speak loud.

Most attacks of the kind all over the world have come from extremist islamist forces, that's a loud fact.

but to automatically assume it, imo is wrong, but whatever.

tangerine_dream
07-24-2011, 09:04 PM
you don't think islamophobia has even a little something do with people's assumptions?
What causes Islamophobia? The fact that the majority of terrorist attacks (http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/) in this world are committed (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/index.htm) in the name of Islam?

When the IRA was terrorizing the UK throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s, did British people suffer from "Irishphobia" whenever a bomb went off and people assumed it was the work of the IRA?

Mjau!
07-24-2011, 09:07 PM
you don't think islamophobia has even a little something do with people's assumptions?

Don't you think it's because this type of terror has been associated with "islamic" terrorism following 9/11, Madrid, London, Bali and Mumbai and all the attention those deeds gathered? If someone blows up a car or shoots a politician in Spain, people think "ETA" and that's not because of "Basqueophobia".

Mjau!
07-24-2011, 09:11 PM
Well it is simply that a terrorist attack in Norway is so rare as to be big news.
On the other hand, a terrorist attack in Pakistan is a regularly occurring event.
When the day comes that there is a daily massacre in Norway by a loner, the reports will move to the inside pages.

But this is probably too simple for you to accept because the only bias it shows is that repetitive and predictable events become less and less newsworthy - and there is no evil intent in this.

Nonsense, it applies to natural disasters as well. By your logic, earthquakes in Japan should not be given as much attention as in a number of poor countries where they are much less common, but that isn't the case, is it? The contrary is true.

@Sweet Cleopatra
07-24-2011, 09:22 PM
Hate is very bad. It is worse, when it is combined with extremely religious people, who want to control and don't really love God. God is love not hate.
RIP all students who were murderd there.

star
07-24-2011, 09:42 PM
Didn't some Islamic group take credit for the bombing before the truth was learned?

And is it really so unreasonable of people to assume this terrorist act was the work of Al Qaeda? How many terrorist attacks does Al Qaeda and their ilk carry out every week compared to far-right or far-left-wing types like Breivik?

Every week?

No, there is not an Al Qaeda attack every week. If you think so, you are attributing all terroristic attacks to Al Qaeda. Not every islamic fundamentalist group is attached to Al Qaeda. Also, I'm not even sure there is a terrorist attack each and every week no matter the group.

We are quick to label the acts of those who operate against us as terrorists, but I wonder if citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan think of U.S. forces as terror too. We overlook the violence we perpetrate, and fixate on the violence of others to justify what we do.

buddyholly
07-24-2011, 09:43 PM
Nonsense, it applies to natural disasters as well. By your logic, earthquakes in Japan should not be given as much attention as in a number of poor countries where they are much less common, but that isn't the case, is it? The contrary is true.

Nonsense yourself. The contrary is not true. I saw much more coverage of the Haiti quake than I did of the Japanese one.

The recent Japanese one did get a lot of attention because the tsunami and nuclear disaster made it much more than just another Japanese earthquake. If it had just been a quake killing a few people and with no tsunami or nuclear disaster, it would not have been paid much attention outside of Japan.

Eden
07-24-2011, 09:48 PM
My heart goes out to all the people who lost their life in this tragedy and to those who survived but will have to live with the memory of the happenings.

Good to hear that nobody of the Norwegian posters on MTF or their loved ones got physically hurt.

A friend of mine from Berlin was worried about her daughter who works near the place where the bombing happened. Fortunately she could contact her mother and tell her she is ok.

Timariot
07-24-2011, 10:02 PM
Facts speak loud.

Most attacks of the kind all over the world have come from extremist islamist forces, that's a loud fact.

No, not true. In fact numerically, Islamist attacks are pretty rare, though they tend to cause lots of casualties.

Here's a breakdown of attempted terrorist attacks within European union in last few years:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/96/Terro.jpg

By far, the most common terrorist attacks are made by separatist groups. Second most common offenders are left-wing radicals. Right-wing terrorist and islamist attacks are very rare in Europe. Though in Middle East and Indian subcontinent, Islamist attacks are of course common.

rhinooooo
07-24-2011, 10:40 PM
What causes Islamophobia? The fact that the majority of terrorist attacks (http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/) in this world are committed (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/index.htm) in the name of Islam?

When the IRA was terrorizing the UK throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s, did British people suffer from "Irishphobia" whenever a bomb went off and people assumed it was the work of the IRA?

What exacerbates Islamophobia is ignorant people whose fears are exploited by the scaremongering institutions that control their lives. The same institutions that dictate what mainstream information is out there, and set the context for public discourse. Most of the time that discourse serves only the interests of those groups, not the majority of ordinary citizens.

abraxas21
07-24-2011, 10:42 PM
What causes Islamophobia? The fact that the majority of terrorist attacks (http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/) in this world are committed (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/index.htm) in the name of Islam?

it all depends on the source. it can also be argued that the majority of the terrorist attacks are committed in the name of democracy and liberty.

in this sense, you might want to ask your own gvt how terrorism is defined and if what they do can be considered terrorism... im sure the western governments, bastions of freedom and democracy, never engage in acts of terror.

barbadosan
07-25-2011, 12:03 AM
Facts speak loud.

Most attacks of the kind all over the world have come from extremist islamist forces, that's a loud fact.

You're obviously too young to remember the days of Baader Meinhoff, the FALN, the Japanese Red Army, Italy's Red Brigade, Black Liberation Army, the Symbionese Liberation Army (Patricia Hearst)... yes there was also at the time Black September, but for 2 decades - 70's and 80's, the face of terrorism was primarily right/left-wing, fascist groups.

buddyholly
07-25-2011, 12:26 AM
You're obviously too young to remember the days of Baader Meinhoff, the FALN, the Japanese Red Army, Italy's Red Brigade, Black Liberation Army, the Symbionese Liberation Army (Patricia Hearst)... yes there was also at the time Black September, but for 2 decades - 70's and 80's, the face of terrorism was primarily right/left-wing, fascist groups.

What are you talking about?

You say that for two decades the face of terrorism was right/left- wing, fascist groups. Yet your list is entirely of far left to Marxist groups. So why did you say right wing?

buddyholly
07-25-2011, 12:30 AM
No, not true. In fact numerically, Islamist attacks are pretty rare, though they tend to cause lots of casualties.

Here's a breakdown of attempted terrorist attacks within European union in last few years:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/96/Terro.jpg

By far, the most common terrorist attacks are made by separatist groups. Second most common offenders are left-wing radicals. Right-wing terrorist and islamist attacks are very rare in Europe. Though in Middle East and Indian subcontinent, Islamist attacks are of course common.

More than one separatist attack per day in 2008? I would like to see what constitutes a terrorist attack in this study.
But then I probably would not trust a compilation by people who don't know how to spell, anyway.

alfonsojose
07-25-2011, 12:45 AM
My condolences to posters in Norway :hug: :sad:

star
07-25-2011, 12:51 AM
To get things here back to NORWAY --

I feel badly because a certain innocence has been ripped away from the country. It seems that most Norwegians thought of these mass killings as something that happened elsewhere. When them is us, it's difficult to adjust.

kinski76
07-25-2011, 01:05 AM
I feel badly because a certain innocence has been ripped away from the country. It seems that most Norwegians thought of these mass killings as something that happened elsewhere. When them is us, it's difficult to adjust.

There's an element of that, but our "innocence" is greatly exaggerated by foreign media. We're not quite the postcard image of peace, freedom and democracy some like to put us across as (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-norway-psyche-20110725,0,3508047.story). We weren't prior to this attack either.

star
07-25-2011, 01:36 AM
There's an element of that, but our "innocence" is greatly exaggerated by foreign media. We're not quite the postcard image of peace, freedom and democracy some like to put us across as (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-norway-psyche-20110725,0,3508047.story). We weren't prior to this attack either.

Ok. I'll just revise that image to a gun toting dangerous to walk on the streets kind of place. Ok?


Here's an interesting article by someone who was a "friend" on Facebook.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/24/anders-breivik-facebook-hatred?intcmp=239

fast_clay
07-25-2011, 02:32 AM
There's an element of that, but our "innocence" is greatly exaggerated by foreign media. We're not quite the postcard image of peace, freedom and democracy some like to put us across as (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-norway-psyche-20110725,0,3508047.story). We weren't prior to this attack either.

yeah... i read about the biracial guy who was brutally knifed and killed there in 2001... says the outrage pretty much brought a halt to the rise of skinhead culture that had been brewing there in the 80' and 90's... so, you know feeling exists - or has in the past... but instead of something simmering in plain slight, it just moves underground, more silent, then boom...

the twisted extremist ideology of turning on your own in order to 'open the eyes of a nation' is gonna be the toughest battle for you guys to deal with... venting directly upon the enemy itself is less hard to get the head around... takes a pretty acute sickness to come up with this...

sadly, his meeting with the 'Knights Templar' in london could well mean that he wasn't alone in formulating this sick shit...

GugaF1
07-25-2011, 02:36 AM
There's an element of that, but our "innocence" is greatly exaggerated by foreign media. We're not quite the postcard image of peace, freedom and democracy some like to put us across as (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-norway-psyche-20110725,0,3508047.story). We weren't prior to this attack either.

I am curious as to what is the crime activity generally in Norway. Hearing that the Policeman don't even carry guns around. What are the most common crimes there? I think muder is problably seldom, but robbery assault and things like these happen somewhat often, what is the in nightly news situation?

Mjau!
07-25-2011, 04:04 AM
No, not true. In fact numerically, Islamist attacks are pretty rare, though they tend to cause lots of casualties.

Here's a breakdown of attempted terrorist attacks within European union in last few years:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/96/Terro.jpg

By far, the most common terrorist attacks are made by separatist groups. Second most common offenders are left-wing radicals. Right-wing terrorist and islamist attacks are very rare in Europe. Though in Middle East and Indian subcontinent, Islamist attacks are of course common.

JolanGago said "all over the world" not "European union". Please pay attention.

Nearly all islamic terror takes place in islamic countries. It's almost non-existant in the western world.

Action Jackson
07-25-2011, 04:19 AM
i actually thought you were from iceland. i wish you and your nation the best in these awful times. if anything, these maniacs don't realize that with their terror they only manage to make the people hate their causes and the values they represent.

There are Icelandic links within my family, quite a few then again it was western Norwegians that went to Iceland.

The whole cause thing, there are some extreme right people that will think Breivik is a hero through these actions. He will end up speaking today though they aren't sure whether it will be a closed session or not.

Why the fuck is the Islam thing still going on in this thread, when it has nothing to do with what happened here.

Or Levy
07-25-2011, 04:25 AM
it all depends on the source. it can also be argued that the majority of the terrorist attacks are committed in the name of democracy and liberty.

in this sense, you might want to ask your own gvt how terrorism is defined and if what they do can be considered terrorism... im sure the western governments, bastions of freedom and democracy, never engage in acts of terror.

How do you define terrorism?

Action Jackson
07-25-2011, 04:51 AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/faces-of-hatred-norway-mass-killers-life-laid-bare-2319892.html


Faces of hatred: Norway mass killer's life laid bare

By Jerome Taylor in Asta Oest, Norway

Monday, 25 July 2011

The appearance of the 1,500-page document, which Breivik placed online before embarking on Friday's devastating attack, came as forensic investigators sifted through the buildings of a farm two hours' drive north of Oslo.

The killer was vainglorious, lethal, meticulous and utterly callous. He was also desperate for the world to know exactly who he was and why he had decided to embark on such a brutal killing spree.

Norway got a glimpse into the mind of a mass murderer yesterday as an extraordinary manifesto by Anders Behring Breivik emerged on the internet detailing a massacre eight years in the making.

The appearance of the 1,500-page document, which Breivik placed online before embarking on Friday's devastating attack, came as forensic investigators sifted through the buildings of a farm two hours' drive north of Oslo. It is believed the 32-year-old secretly built a car bomb there that tore the heart out of Oslo and heralded the beginning of Norway's worst day of violence since the Second World War.

According to his lawyer, Geir Lippestad, Breivik has admitted masterminding Friday's attacks, but believes he has done nothing wrong. "He thought it was gruesome having to commit these acts, but in his head they were necessary," said Mr Lippestad, adding that his client would explain his actions when he appears in court today charged with two counts of terrorism.

As the death toll from the Utoya massacre rose by one to 86, adding to the seven killed in the Oslo bomb blast, the people of Norway focused on remembering those they had lost. Makeshift shrines and flowers sprang up across the city and mourners filed into Oslo cathedral accompanied by their King and Queen.

Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg spoke on behalf of his traumatised nation: "We are still struggling to get to grips with the dimension of what has happened," he said. "Many of us know people that have been killed. And many more have second-hand acquaintance with someone that was killed."

The loss of 93 people is a tragedy wherever it happens. But in a country of just 4.9 million, it is a collective catastrophe. As mourners embraced each other next to the growing sea of flowers outside the church, forensic investigators – including explosive specialists from the military – continued their investigations of Breivik's bomb factory. The farm sits on the outskirts of Asta Oest, a quintessentially Norwegian village which lies at the bottom of a flat valley cut in half by a roaring river. Nestled behind a thick row of deciduous trees, Breivik's farm – complete with a postbox still bearing his name – is made up of a string of traditional red, wooden farm buildings. The little white farmhouse, with its wooden porch, overlooks the river and mountains beyond. It was in these buildings that he put the finishing touches to his murderous plans.

When special forces stormed Utoya island, Breivik gave up without a fight. But just in case he was killed, he left his manifesto and a slick YouTube video explaining his warped and violent ethos. Both documents are diatribes against what the Christian fundamentalist saw as the erosion of traditional Europe by the forces of liberalism and a call to arms for nationalists to "embrace martyrdom" by starting an anti-Muslim crusade. Parts of the manifesto seemed to plagiarise the writings of Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, who terrified America for 17 years.

The writings also provide a detailed – and terrifying – portrait of a meticulous and calculated planner who contrived to ensure maximum casualties and that he wouldn't be caught.

Entitled "2083 – A European Declaration of Independence", the manifesto reveals how the six-foot bodybuilder spent eight years planning his attacks. Between 2002 and 2006, a period he described as phase one, Breivik raised the money he needed before moving on to phase two – planning his massacre.

He moved out of his own apartment and in with his mother to save money and gradually distanced himself from his friends. Vain and body-conscious, he visited tanning salons and took steroids to bolster his physique. Mindful of the impact he wanted his writing to have, he also published them in English rather than his mother tongue.

An entry from autumn 2009 reveals how Breivik bought the Asta farm as a perfect cover for buying fertiliser without raising suspicion. "Needless to say; this is an extremely vulnerable phase," he wrote after purchasing his first order online from a supplier in Poland. "In fact, it is the most vulnerable phase of them all. If I get through this phase without trouble, I will be very close to finalising my operation."

By spring of this year Breivik had successfully bought his weapons, including a Ruger Mini-14 semi-automatic rifle and Glock pistol which he buried in the woods behind the farm. With no previous criminal convictions, it was easy for him to acquire weapons in a country where hunting is hugely popular. "On the application form I stated: 'hunting deer'," he wrote. "It would have been tempting to just write the truth; 'executing category A and B cultural Marxists/multiculturalist traitors' just to see their reaction :P."

And it was with these weapons that Breivik once again displayed a lethal meticulousness that made the Utoya island shootings the deadliest attack on record by a lone gunmen. After eight years of planning, Breivik was in no hurry. He calmly fired his weapons with precise single shots rather than spraying the area with bullets.

But a fear of getting caught – or his elderly mother finding out what he was up to – permeates the manifesto. At one point, Breivik saw a man photographing his farm.

"He, around 50 or 60, said he was a tourist wanting to take landscape pictures," Breivik wrote. "His actions and body language indicated however that he was lying." Breivik suspected that he might be a police officer investigating marijuana production. "This encounter was a concern for me for a few days, but I decided to just forget it as it wasn't anything to do about it if he was to return. I'm just glad I gave him a good impression."

Now that Norwegians are beginning to understand Breivik's sheer ruthlessness, the country's profound belief in forgiveness and redemption will no doubt be sorely tested. No one can be sentenced to more than 21 years in prison for a criminal act, which raises the prospect that unless Anders Behring Breivik is declared insane, the man on the farm could be free to walk the streets of Oslo again in less than quarter of a century.

Breivik's blueprint

In a 1,500-page online manifesto, published just hours before Friday's rampage, Breivik described his preparations for the attacks.

* Wednesday May 11, Day 10: The largest military base in the country is located just a few kilometres north-east of my farm. It would have saved me a lot of hassle if I could just "borrow" a cup of sugar and 3kg of C4 from my dear neighbour.

* Monday July 18, Day 48: Exhausted!!! Good workout though. I'm drinking 4 x protein shakes per day to maximise muscle generation.

* Saturday June 25, Day 55: Refined individuals like myself is (sic) a rare commodity here so I notice I do get a lot of attention. It's the way I dress and look. There are mostly unrefined/un-cultivated people living here.

* Friday July 22, Day 82: Initiate blasting sequences at pre-determined sites. Have enough material for at least 20 blasts. Time is running out.

The old saying "if you want something done, then do it yourself" is as relevant now as it was then. I believe this is will be my last entry.

abraxas21
07-25-2011, 04:57 AM
How do you define terrorism?
i personally think of terrorism as acts designed with the purpose of causing terror (i.e. bringing fear) among the population in order to encourage them to do something or simply to cause social disorder and/or encourage anarchy.

then again, this isn't the definition used by many governments. i understand that there's no legal definition of terrorism.

abraxas21
07-25-2011, 05:08 AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/faces-of-hatred-norway-mass-killers-life-laid-bare-2319892.html


Faces of hatred: Norway mass killer's life laid bare

what a complete psycho

Orka_n
07-25-2011, 05:24 AM
Insanity. He sounds like Dexter or something. I can't even understand how someone can regard human lives as if they were nothing.

Jimnik
07-25-2011, 05:46 AM
According to his lawyer, Geir Lippestad, Breivik has admitted masterminding Friday's attacks, but believes he has done nothing wrong. "He thought it was gruesome having to commit these acts, but in his head they were necessary," said Mr Lippestad, adding that his client would explain his actions when he appears in court today charged with two counts of terrorism.
I'm just stunned that anyone would have the stomache to be his lawyer. The man is totally insane.

Capturing a monstrous psychopath alive is a rarity in itself but to then hear him publicly try to rationalize his actions. I'm not sure the world has ever seen anything like this.

Jimnik
07-25-2011, 06:08 AM
Now that Norwegians are beginning to understand Breivik's sheer ruthlessness, the country's profound belief in forgiveness and redemption will no doubt be sorely tested. No one can be sentenced to more than 21 years in prison for a criminal act, which raises the prospect that unless Anders Behring Breivik is declared insane, the man on the farm could be free to walk the streets of Oslo again in less than quarter of a century.
I can't even start to imagine how families and friends of the victims must feel about this. I fear they might drown in their emotions, frustration and veangance, if this monster ever walks free again. The government could be put under pressure to go beyond the law.

Then again, Breivik will almost certainly be declared insane so it shouldn't be an issue. As long as they keep him locked up in an asylum with no access to the outside world for the rest of his life.

star
07-25-2011, 06:31 AM
I just heard an interview with a Norwegian who said that if Breivik is well behaved, he could be out of prison in 10 years.

It will be interesting to see what happens, and if laws are passed about more severe sentences for mass murder.

What a thing it would be if this man who calculated so much also calculated that he would spend comparatively little time in prison.

Action Jackson
07-25-2011, 08:14 AM
I'm just stunned that anyone would have the stomache to be his lawyer. The man is totally insane.

Capturing a monstrous psychopath alive is a rarity in itself but to then hear him publicly try to rationalize his actions. I'm not sure the world has ever seen anything like this.

It gets better his lawyer was a branch leader of the Labor Party, the one that was targetted by Breivik.

kinski76
07-25-2011, 09:47 AM
Norwegian police confirmed this morning that they will revise down the number of people killed in the Utøya shooting. The updated numbers will be published this afternoon.

I don't know what to make of this.

And the hearings, due to start in 40 minutes, will be held behind close doors.

Action Jackson
07-25-2011, 10:25 AM
Makes sense the hearing is closed.

Action Jackson
07-25-2011, 10:56 AM
Breivik deliberately picked that lawyer cause of his Labor Party background.

Mimi
07-25-2011, 11:04 AM
this bad man should be sentenced for life :fiery:

poor people, rest in peace :tears:

rhinooooo
07-25-2011, 11:46 AM
I read a few things suggesting that due to the exceptional circumstances of this case, he could very well go to prison for life - hopefully this is the case.

Action Jackson
07-25-2011, 11:49 AM
I read a few things suggesting that due to the exceptional circumstances of this case, he could very well go to prison for life - hopefully this is the case.

I said it before maestro. 21 years is the max, but it can be extended and Breivik qualifies with this massacre. A psycopath doesn't have a chance to be rehabilitated, which is one of the main conditions for the sentence to be extended.

Action Jackson
07-25-2011, 12:15 PM
Geir Lippestad very brave or foolish man for defending Breivik in this case. Not a surprise he is getting so much abuse when he entered the court room.