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Anders Behring Breivik declared sane, sentenced to 21 years in jail for Oslo massacre

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Vida
07-25-2011, 12:39 PM
I still cant believe he killed all those kids. its difficult to describe how I feel towards this man. nothing seems harsh enough.

Vida
07-25-2011, 12:46 PM
I said it before maestro. 21 years is the max, but it can be extended and Breivik qualifies with this massacre. A psycopath doesn't have a chance to be rehabilitated, which is one of the main conditions for the sentence to be extended.

for the most extreme crimes there really should be life sentence I feel just for the sake of mind.

norway appears so liberal I wouldnt be overly surprised there are some attempts (or at least some vague legal possibilities) to cut him loose on account of being crazy.

Johnny Groove
07-25-2011, 12:51 PM
Hang him.

An eye for an eye.

Black Adam
07-25-2011, 12:57 PM
I have always wondered about the word terror. How do you fight Terror? It's such an intangible term. Sort of like declaring war on Stupidity.

http://fpwatch.com/?p=1688
I am struck — if not particularly surprised — by the skewed use of language surrounding the attacks yesterday in Norway. The Western press is largely avoiding the term “terrorist” when speaking of the blond, blue-eyed, Christian attacker, Anders Behring Breivik, who is now in custody after being picked up by the police. The term “terrorist attack” is also absent from the headlines of our country’s major media outlets. (See the lead articles on The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/norway-attacks-police-say-suspect-used-car-bomb-two-guns-killing-at-least-92/2011/07/23/gIQAVYeOVI_story.html), the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/world/europe/24oslo.html?_r=1&hp), and the Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903461104576463592110417526.html?m od=WSJ_Home_largeHeadline).)* Does anyone have a shred of doubt that these attacks — politically-motivated acts of violence against unarmed civilians — would be trumpeted as an “act of terrorism,” and its perpetrator as a “terrorist,” if Breivik was a Muslim?

As Glenn Greenwald writes (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/23/nyt/index.html), the reason for this glaring inconsistency is apparent: in the American press and in mainstream political discourse, “terrorism” simply means “violence committed by Muslims whom the West dislikes, no matter the cause or the target.” That someone who “looks like us” and who “believes in our god” (sarcasm) could commit an act of terrorism is, of course, to misuse the term. Christians do not engage in terrorism. It is a term reserved exclusively for Muslims, or at least that is the conclusion that one is forced to draw if one pays even a whit of attention to what our political and media elites are saying these days. Christians who engage in these types of acts are generally labeled “extremists,” not terrorists. And, indeed, that is the term that is now being deployed (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/world/europe/24oslo.html?hp).

The way that our media and our political elites selectively use the label of “terrorist” — to galvanize fear of Muslim radicalism and build reliable support for our endless war on terrorism — is deplorable. The term has become so politicized and manipulated these days that it is now virtually meaningless in its present usage. Is it fair, for instance, to label (as is often done) Muslim militants launching attacks on an occupying military force as “terrorists?” Conversely, does it make sense to eschew the term “terrorist” when a blue-eyed, white-skinned, non-Muslim attacker with clear political grievances uses wanton violence to gun down nearly a hundred civilians, many of them children? I’m not sure that question really needs to be answered.

____
NOTE: In its lead article (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/world/europe/24oslo.html?hp), the NYT does refer to the incident as an act of “homegrown terrorism.” However, as of 7/23 (UPDATE, 7/24: the headline has since been edited slightly) its headline reads, “Right-Wing Extremist Charged in Norway,” and the three-page article fails to refer to Breivik as a “terrorist” at any point.


Dismissing this guy as insane and committing him to a lifetime in a Mental Asylum seems to be the way to go. After all, his main goal was to get media attention to expose his agenda. I doubt the higher-ups would want him to be given a platform to share his ideas with the world. That would be akin to the late David Lane being invited on the Larry King show to chat about his views.

Gagsquet
07-25-2011, 12:59 PM
Kill him is the worst answer possible.
Reply to barbarism by barbarism is the negation of justice.

Boarder35m
07-25-2011, 12:59 PM
I said it before maestro. 21 years is the max, but it can be extended and Breivik qualifies with this massacre. A psycopath doesn't have a chance to be rehabilitated, which is one of the main conditions for the sentence to be extended.

I understood that Norway has a preventive detention, so that criminals who are still a danger for society could be forced to stay in prison or rather in a closed psychiatric clinic.

Black Adam
07-25-2011, 01:02 PM
Hang him.

An eye for an eye.
I would do a public stoning but the thing is how big is his following? Don't want to turn the scum into a martyr or a symbol. He needs to be confined to the forgotten dustbin of human scum.

buddyholly
07-25-2011, 01:11 PM
Why the fuck is the Islam thing still going on in this thread, when it has nothing to do with what happened here.

Why do you say that when your next post is an article explaining that his motive was hatred of Islam?

kinski76
07-25-2011, 01:12 PM
I know the wording quickly shifted from "terrorist" to "extremist/madman" when the perp's personal details came out in some media. It has caused quite an outrage on some international sites. As far as I've been able to tell, Scandinavian media has referred to him as a "terrorist" all along, though.

buddyholly
07-25-2011, 01:19 PM
Geir Lippestad very brave or foolish man for defending Breivik in this case. Not a surprise he is getting so much abuse when he entered the court room.

That always is a surprise to me. Surely Norwegians understand that a lawyer is just doing a job. His personal beliefs do not enter into it if he is a good lawyer.

Luinir
07-25-2011, 01:24 PM
Why do you say that when your next post is an article explaining that his motive was hatred of Islam?

Because he hate Islam.

It seems like that you are very sad because the terrorist wasn't Muslim. :sad:

Action Jackson
07-25-2011, 01:27 PM
Here is the steroid muncher leaving court.

http://static.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2011/07/25/1311599554043_198.jpg

buddyholly
07-25-2011, 01:32 PM
Because he hate Islam.

It seems like that you are very sad because the terrorist wasn't Muslim. :sad:
You are not making sense.

I was stating that the terrorist appears to have hated Islam and you agree with my opinion.

buddyholly
07-25-2011, 01:36 PM
AJ

Will Breivnik be able to stand up in court and declare his manifesto? Or can his lawyer control what he says?
I can't think of another case where someone appears to actually believe the courts will exonerate him. I was surprised that he just surrendered on the island. Suicide is what most often has happened in loner terrorist attacks. Either this is because he really believes he will be seen as a liberator, - or maybe just a preparation for pleading insanity?

kinski76
07-25-2011, 01:38 PM
Eight weeks initial custody with full letter/visitation ban and four weeks complete isolation. Leaving for Torchlight parade now.

Action Jackson
07-25-2011, 01:39 PM
Why do you say that when your next post is an article explaining that his motive was hatred of Islam?

Here is what he said after the hearing just now

"[Breivik] needed to take action to save Norway and Western Europe from cultural Marxism and Muslim takeover.

The objective of the attacks was to give a clear signal to people, the accused wished to induce the greatest possible loss to Labour Party, so that it for the future would limit future recruitment. He explained that Labour has betrayed the country and paid the price.

The Labour Party of "mass import of Muslims"

Gagsquet
07-25-2011, 01:40 PM
Why is he smiling? :tape: :unsure:
Frightening

buddyholly
07-25-2011, 01:49 PM
Here is what he said after the hearing just now

"[Breivik] needed to take action to save Norway and Western Europe from cultural Marxism and Muslim takeover.

The objective of the attacks was to give a clear signal to people, the accused wished to induce the greatest possible loss to Labour Party, so that it for the future would limit future recruitment. He explained that Labour has betrayed the country and paid the price.

The Labour Party of "mass import of Muslims"

Yes, I know. But I was curious about your post that the ''Muslim thing'' has nothing to do with what happened.

Maybe you meant Muslims have nothing to do with what happened.

Action Jackson
07-25-2011, 01:49 PM
Why do you say that when your next post is an article explaining that his motive was hatred of Islam?

There is only so much Islamaphobia one can put up with. I mean it's good that the terrorist wasn't a Muslim, even with this happening, these people are still getting scapegoated.

That always is a surprise to me. Surely Norwegians understand that a lawyer is just doing a job. His personal beliefs do not enter into it if he is a good lawyer.

Not a surprise he's copping the frustration from many people since they can't strike at Breivik.

Norwegian judge says gunman said he worked with 'two more cells in organisation'

SloKid
07-25-2011, 01:54 PM
I was surprised that he just surrendered on the island.
He can't further spread his gospel if dead.

Everko
07-25-2011, 02:02 PM
Hang him.

An eye for an eye.

makes the world blind


although I agree that this guy deserves no mercy.

star
07-25-2011, 02:07 PM
Hang him.

An eye for an eye.

And then the whole world will be blind. :hug:

Revenge is a never ending circle.

rhinooooo
07-25-2011, 02:12 PM
I said it before maestro. 21 years is the max, but it can be extended and Breivik qualifies with this massacre. A psycopath doesn't have a chance to be rehabilitated, which is one of the main conditions for the sentence to be extended.

Should happen mate. Really cannot imagine the outrage if this isn't the case.

buddyholly
07-25-2011, 02:45 PM
He can't further spread his gospel if dead.

That was my point. Most lone terrorists seem to know they have reached and end and just kill themselves and hope to be martyrs. This one seems to actually believe people will now wake up to his truth. No wonder he is able to appear so calm on his way from court.

Action Jackson
07-25-2011, 02:49 PM
That was my point. Most lone terrorists seem to know they have reached and en and just kill themselves and hope to be martyrs. This one seems to actually believe people will now wake up to his truth. No wonder he is able to appear so calm on his way from court.

This is it.

SloKid
07-25-2011, 03:10 PM
Death toll on the island revised down to 68 from 86 (some still missing), some good news at least, if you can call that good.

8 dead in the bomb blast so far.

Mjau!
07-25-2011, 05:59 PM
Breivik's diary reveals that he planned the attacks since 2002, but took a year off to play World of Warcraft.

Sauletekis
07-25-2011, 07:25 PM
Well, I think in this sick murder point of view, the more time he stays in prision, the better for him. As soon as he leaves the prision he will be killed by someone of any victims family or friends... So he is kind of fucked up now.

Or Levy
07-25-2011, 07:41 PM
Reversed death toll, first time I've seen that. Almost 20 less! Happy for them, not that 76 is significantly less horrifying than 90 something.

Blackbriar
07-25-2011, 08:43 PM
very sad, but they didn't make as much noise when french monks where decapitated by muslims in Algeria.
Unfortunately for them, they were christians.
And christians are labelled as Evil by international medias, while Jewish and Muslims are labelled as Good.

tangerine_dream
07-25-2011, 08:48 PM
Breivik's diary reveals that he planned the attacks since 2002, but took a year off to play World of Warcraft.
LOL. Sorry for laughing but I immediately thought of South Park's WoW loserguy.

MT0-OL_71yU


This Breivik is a real original, he copies the Unabomber's manifesto and McVeigh's car bomb. Wonder what his inspiration was for shooting up the kid's camp? :o

star
07-25-2011, 10:59 PM
LOL. Sorry for laughing but I immediately thought of South Park's WoW loserguy.

MT0-OL_71yU


This Breivik is a real original, he copies the Unabomber's manifesto and McVeigh's car bomb. Wonder what his inspiration was for shooting up the kid's camp? :o

One of the many school massacres in the U.S.?

Sunset of Age
07-26-2011, 12:45 AM
very sad, but they didn't make as much noise when french monks where decapitated by muslims in Algeria.
Unfortunately for them, they were christians.
And christians are labelled as Evil by international medias, while Jewish and Muslims are labelled as Good.

Huh? Does it make any difference at what means the opponents are being killed? :confused:
There should be a warning sign at ANY a church, mosque, synagoge or whatsoever kind of 'belief': "Religion may well damage your mental health" :o

Sorry about this, I just had to say it. Same goes for overzealous followers of whatever kind of political ideology, btw. :bolt:

fast_clay
07-26-2011, 12:55 AM
Sorry about this, I just had to say it. Same goes for overzealous followers of whatever kind of political ideology, btw. :bolt:

nope... fully agree... moderation in most pursuits doesn't harm anyone...

abraxas21
07-26-2011, 01:26 AM
Wonder what his inspiration was for shooting up the kid's camp? :o

he attacked a kids' camp of the social democratic party of norway. his goal was to 'punish' the social democrats for 'importing muslims' and bringing multiculturalism to the country.

he has apparently said that he knows he's looked as a monster but he believes that in the future the people will recognize that his actions were for the best. he's a right wing lunatic. gert wilders' inspiration, medicine-free glenn beck but on steroids, the type of bloke who probly thinks tea partiers in rural texas are too left-leaning for his taste. in his manifiesto he clearly sees himself as important, he's a megalomaniac, totally twisted and lacking the ability to see that, if anything, this type of mass-killings happen to make the people despise whatever goals the author had in mind.

Mimi
07-26-2011, 07:39 AM
Here is the steroid muncher leaving court.

http://static.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2011/07/25/1311599554043_198.jpg

still dares to smile with so many bloods in his hands and wearing a red top (wearing colourful stuff when people mourns is a disgrace for Chinese) :fiery:

why didn't he shoot himself instead :mad:

Black Adam
07-26-2011, 09:48 AM
still dares to smile with so many bloods in his hands and wearing a red top (wearing colourful stuff when people mourns is a disgrace for Chinese) :fiery:

why didn't he shoot himself instead :mad:
He now has a platform to share his agenda with the world and hope to create an uprising in Europe.

Mimi
07-26-2011, 10:09 AM
He now has a platform to share his agenda with the world and hope to create an uprising in Europe.

those who are foolish enough to believe him are dumbass:rolleyes::mad:

Action Jackson
07-26-2011, 02:09 PM
The police are having a press conference at the moment. Oslo police only had 1 helicopter and it has limited capacities. In the autumn, they will have an investigation into what happened.

StoGas
07-26-2011, 02:12 PM
I think that Norway police are used to peaceful life, this is why there were so slow to get to the tragedy place :shrug:

Gagsquet
07-26-2011, 02:45 PM
1 helicopter is quite stunning for a city as Oslo.

GugaF1
07-26-2011, 02:58 PM
Yeah, I like that Norway is so peaceful, but there is a certain foolishness to an extent. There is no real reason why the police should not be well prepared and prepared with force for that matter. You can be as peaceful as you like, but is still still human beings in there and when it comes to human beings, there is always the chance that shit could hit the fan and brute force may be need it.

I am all for less guns as much as possible in society, but the "good" guys the police, should always have them near and ready. Even in the paradise in heaven, god should keep some angles with force in case an Angel, maybe one called Lucifer decides to rebel against him.

acionescu
07-26-2011, 05:35 PM
http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=42479

:hatoff:

kinski76
07-26-2011, 07:24 PM
http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=42479

:hatoff:

70 000 people were estimated, 200 000 turned out. On less than a day’s notice. I can’t describe the feeling of seeing the entire crowd lift their roses at once. From where I was standing, on a plateau slightly elevated above the rest, it looked like the world’s biggest flower garden. Similar demonstrations are being held all over the country. My parents and a handful of my friends are currently attending one in Hole kommune, which is where the Utøya incident took place. Events like these may not seem like much, but they serve an important symbolic function. What’s currently happening nationwide is not only a solidarity action, but an obvious show of defiance.

Sunset of Age
07-26-2011, 07:35 PM
70 000 people were estimated, 200 000 turned out. On less than a day’s notice. I can’t describe the feeling of seeing the entire crowd lift their roses at once. From where I was standing, on a plateau slightly elevated above the rest, it looked like the world’s biggest flower garden. Similar demonstrations are being held all over the country. My parents and a handful of my friends are currently attending one in Hole kommune, which is where the Utøya incident took place. Events like these may not seem like much, but they serve an important symbolic function. What’s currently happening nationwide is not only a solidarity action, but an obvious show of defiance.

:hug: The 'best' (if there is any 'best' possible in such a horrid tragedy) is to know that that SOAB achieved the absolute opposite of what his goal supposed to be: in stead of a nation involved in some kind of a dreadful 'war' (:o), the Norwegian people seems now to be completely *united* in their grief. (and the rest of the sensible world as well btw)
Just a very minor comfort though...

(PS will answer your post this evening, LJ was having hiccups yesterday)

GugaF1
07-26-2011, 10:49 PM
:hug: The 'best' (if there is any 'best' possible in such a horrid tragedy) is to know that that SOAB achieved the absolute opposite of what his goal supposed to be: in stead of a nation involved in some kind of a dreadful 'war' (:o), the Norwegian people seems now to be completely *united* in their grief. (and the rest of the sensible world as well btw)
Just a very minor comfort though...

(PS will answer your post this evening, LJ was having hiccups yesterday)

I hope so but not so much, the media keeps reading and detailing his ideology manifesto or whatever giving so much importance and plattform. Even here in Brazil, the media was like, oh, he mentioned Brazil about 10 times saying that it is multi-cultural nation that doesn't work etc. I am why the heck should be giving such a plattform for a mad man.

Sunset of Age
07-27-2011, 12:14 AM
I hope so but not so much, the media keeps reading and detailing his ideology manifesto or whatever giving so much importance and plattform. Even here in Brazil, the media was like, oh, he mentioned Brazil about 10 times saying that it is multi-cultural nation that doesn't work etc. I am why the heck should be giving such a plattform for a mad man.

That's exactly why all of the media influence is so scary... the copy-cat effect, just to mention one thing. The Colombine Massacre was the sad 'incident' that started it all... :scared: :mad:
I have my own thoughts about that, and the fact that about every idiot is able to vent his sick thoughts throughout the internet nowadays might not always be very positive, to say the least.

The media form the 'welcome' platform for lunatics like this guy to vent their sick ideas. Alas. :help: :mad: :mad: :mad:

kinski76
07-27-2011, 02:43 AM
Would the good people of Oslo remember to pick up their luggage upon leaving buses, trams and metros, please? Thank you.

I hope so but not so much, the media keeps reading and detailing his ideology manifesto or whatever giving so much importance and plattform. Even here in Brazil, the media was like, oh, he mentioned Brazil about 10 times saying that it is multi-cultural nation that doesn't work etc. I am why the heck should be giving such a plattform for a mad man.

Any sane person who reads this "manifesto" should quickly become aware of the logical inconsistencies within it and recognize it as basically the rantings and ravings of a sick individual. I tried reading it, but quickly became bored with the repetitive diatribes. He references knitting classes, Eurovision and effing Top Gear. ABB's defence attorney is on record having said that he is completely detached from reality and lives entirely in his own bubble, where anybody who believes in the idea of democracy is by default his sworn enemy. Lippestad is doing a fairly good job of not-quite defending him so far.

There will always be the occasional nutjob who finds his ideas to be perfectly valid, and his actions to be justifiable. But I maintain that if you read his disjointed thoughts and thereby become induced to act in a similar fashion, you likely have the same subversive ideas to start with, and only need a prompt to act on them. The manifesto won’t change anybody’s minds, but in the worst case scenario it may spark some of his already likeminded into action. That's a risk you have to take in a democratic society. As long as people can choose freely, some will choose wrongly. The only way to eliminate that would be through preventive measures and/or mind control.

star
07-27-2011, 03:08 PM
That's exactly why all of the media influence is so scary... the copy-cat effect, just to mention one thing. The Colombine Massacre was the sad 'incident' that started it all... :scared: :mad:
I have my own thoughts about that, and the fact that about every idiot is able to vent his sick thoughts throughout the internet nowadays might not always be very positive, to say the least.

The media form the 'welcome' platform for lunatics like this guy to vent their sick ideas. Alas. :help: :mad: :mad: :mad:

There were school shootings before Colombine. The first I remember is the Texas Tower shooting in 1966.

There are lessons to be learned. I think the first is that hate breeds hate. The only way for a free society to combat hatred is not by hating more or seeking revenge, but by coming together and accepting one another and not letting hatred permeate the society. I so fear that is happening in the U.S. It's my greatest fear about my country.

In the U.S. when there is one of these massacres, so many of us (me included) blame it on the lack of gun control and the glorification of violence in the media. I don't know how Norway is dealing with that since I assume there is more gun control in Norway than the U.S.

I don't know how the media is supposed to react other than reporting about the ideas that the murderer says impelled him to murder. That can't be kept secret nor should it be. Wasn't Locke the one who said that all ideas should be expressed and that by publicly airing those ideas the good ones would live and the bad ones would die? I'm not exactly sure he was completely right, but there is wisdom in what he said.

FormerRafaFan
07-27-2011, 05:21 PM
1 helicopter is quite stunning for a city as Oslo.

You have to remember that this happened in the middle of vacation season too. Even if they had helicopters.. everyone who could fly one would probably be away on holiday anyway. He hit when he knew the police couldn't do much. He is a very smart guy, hence the severity of the attacks. He planned it for 9 years.

fast_clay
07-27-2011, 05:59 PM
identifying and engaging the disconnected minority is key... cracked loners need a hero... not sure about some of the other western european nations that have politcally swung back to the right...

Blackbriar
07-27-2011, 06:34 PM
can't imagine how a civilized country lets 76 people being gunned down one by one without trying anything, the guy must have stopped when he run out of ammo. In Texas, the guy would have been killed in a matter of seconds.

alfonsojose
07-27-2011, 06:39 PM
Hopefully a wake up call for Norway to avoid more tragedies. The response was incredibly slow for a developed country. Psycho loners are everywhere.

tangerine_dream
07-27-2011, 10:03 PM
This tragedy has probably ripped some Europeans out of their smug sense of security. No longer can they blame senseless, violent behavior strictly on America's "gun culture", thinking they're safe from all that. The slow response by law enforcement who clearly had no idea what to do, couldn't find a boat that worked properly, and wouldn't know how to use a gun if you handed one to him to shoot Breivik with, made them farcical.

The problem with strict gun control laws is that it basically puts guns in the hands of criminals, people who will always find a way to get their hands on firearms legally or illegally, while law-abiding citizens are prevented from protecting themselves from those gun-wielding criminals.


Unrelated article:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gfrhpkWAwQu4QAbBu_4UC1j8KhZA?docId=9d949e62b 086478193a41d4306a85a32

Belgian pol shocked to get Norway shooter's email
By DON MELVIN, Associated Press

BRUSSELS (AP) — A right-wing Belgian politician said Wednesday he was shocked and dismayed to learn he had been sent an email by the perpetrator of the Norway massacre shortly before a powerful bomb exploded in Oslo.

Tanguy Veys, a member parliament for the anti-immigration Belgian Vlaams Belang party, said Wednesday he had never met nor even heard of Anders Behring Breivik, who has admitted carrying out the bombing and shootings that killed at least 76 people in Norway.

So receiving the email was a setback, he said.

"I was connected with a terrorist act, and I didn't want to be connected with a terrorist act," Veys said.

The email, with Breivik's 1,500-page manifesto of three books attached, was sent Friday, about 90 minutes before the bomb went off.

Veys said the email — written in English — went to about 1,000 addresses.

Other recipients may have been less shocked. One email address on the list led to a Facebook site ostensibly for an Italian whose profile picture included Nazi emblems and a skull. As the person's only interest, the page listed "firearms."

Another of the addresses led to the site of a man who claimed to be a member of the anti-immigration British National Party.

Breivik's email began with the salutation, "Western European patriot" and described the attached manifesto as dealing with "the ongoing Islamification of Western Europe," and "how we, the cultural conservative resistance, should move forward in the coming decades."

"I humbly ask you to re-distribute the book to as many patriotic minded individuals as you can," the email said, in part. "I am 100 percent certain that the distribution of this compendium to a large portion of European patriots will contribute to ensure our victory in the end. Because within these three books lies the tools required to win the ongoing Western European cultural war, the war against the anti-European hate ideology known as multiculturalism."

It was signed, "Sincere and patriotic regards, Andrew Berwick, London, England - 2011."

The attached manifesto detailed what Breivik perceived as the "Islamification of Europe." But it also included a section that illustrates how minutely detailed his plans were — and that helps explain the peculiar appearance of the photographs of him that have surfaced so far.

Breivik wrote that some of the resources of those who agree with him should be devoted to getting good, professionally shot photographs of themselves, after which all other photos should be deleted.

"The police usually 'leak' 'retarded looking' photos to the press after raiding the cells apartment after an operation," he wrote.

Those involved in the struggle, he wrote, should prepare for photo shoots by working out, resting in a solarium, getting a haircut, and shaving.

"Visit a male salon if possible and apply light makeup," he wrote. "Yes, I know - this might sound repulsive to big badass warriors like us, but we must look our best for the shoot."

Veys' party says there's been enough immigration in Belgium and it needs to be strictly limited. It also says immigrants already in the country should be enticed to return to their country of origin.

"I think Europe — we have Jewish and Christian roots. These are our origins. I see that Islam is not compatible with the origins of Europe," he said Wednesday.

But he said his party was dismayed to have found itself as one of the recipients of Breivik's email.

"We have never called up for violence, and certainly what happened in Norway we deeply regret what happened over there. You can't defend it, you can't even sympathize with his motivation, with his action," Veys said.

He said he thought Breivik was deranged and had acted alone. Yet he feared the debate on immigration might now be viewed through the lens of Breivik's murders.

"Even now I read in the articles: the bullets came from the right," Veys said. "I think people still must be able to criticize multiculturalism, to criticize the growth of Islam in Europe but without (others) saying, 'But you are causing the violence.'"

GugaF1
07-27-2011, 11:36 PM
Oh here come the cowboys. The Police should be well prepared and with force that is clear and fair criticism in my view, but to talk about civilians armed to the teeth like some feel in Texas is another matter.

Orka_n
07-27-2011, 11:46 PM
70 000 people were estimated, 200 000 turned out. On less than a day’s notice. I can’t describe the feeling of seeing the entire crowd lift their roses at once. From where I was standing, on a plateau slightly elevated above the rest, it looked like the world’s biggest flower garden. Similar demonstrations are being held all over the country. My parents and a handful of my friends are currently attending one in Hole kommune, which is where the Utøya incident took place. Events like these may not seem like much, but they serve an important symbolic function. What’s currently happening nationwide is not only a solidarity action, but an obvious show of defiance.Simply beautiful.

Sunset of Age
07-28-2011, 12:12 AM
There were school shootings before Colombine. The first I remember is the Texas Tower shooting in 1966.

Yep, but this one was the first that came across as a big shock in the entire world, and also ignited the very smug comments in Europe - or at least in my country - that said that such a shooting 'would never happen over here in Europe'.

How smug, how naive, indeed. :rolleyes:

There are lessons to be learned. I think the first is that hate breeds hate. The only way for a free society to combat hatred is not by hating more or seeking revenge, but by coming together and accepting one another and not letting hatred permeate the society. I so fear that is happening in the U.S. It's my greatest fear about my country.

All too true, but unfortunately, those who encourage friendship among the different cultures over here, or at least a substantial level of mutual understanding and respect, are said to be 'silly left-wing hippies' nowadays. Everywhere, I fear. :sad:
No wonder I fear the right-wing movement being so strong over here right now... I guess it's some kind of a mirror image of what the US are going through with that current Tea Party-idiocy. :help:

In the U.S. when there is one of these massacres, so many of us (me included) blame it on the lack of gun control and the glorification of violence in the media. I don't know how Norway is dealing with that since I assume there is more gun control in Norway than the U.S.

I don't know how the media is supposed to react other than reporting about the ideas that the murderer says impelled him to murder. That can't be kept secret nor should it be. Wasn't Locke the one who said that all ideas should be expressed and that by publicly airing those ideas the good ones would live and the bad ones would die? I'm not exactly sure he was completely right, but there is wisdom in what he said.

Good points indeed.

abraxas21
07-28-2011, 12:13 AM
can't imagine how a civilized country lets 76 people being gunned down one by one without trying anything, the guy must have stopped when he run out of ammo. In Texas, the guy would have been killed in a matter of seconds.

dont think so

this guy killed 13, 12 of them trained military guys, in a texan military base no less. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting

GugaF1
07-28-2011, 12:31 AM
Yep, but this one was the first that came across as a big shock in the entire world, and also ignited the very smug comments in Europe - or at least in my country - that said that such a shooting 'would never happen over here in Europe'.

How smug, how naive, indeed. :rolleyes:



All too true, but unfortunately, those who encourage friendship among the different cultures over here, or at least a substantial level of mutual understanding and respect, are said to be 'silly left-wing hippies' nowadays. Everywhere, I fear. :sad:
No wonder I fear the right-wing movement being so strong over here right now... I guess it's some kind of a mirror image of what the US are going through with that current Tea Party-idiocy. :help:



Good points indeed.


The far right wing moves in cycles. Like with the second WW, causes a lot of pain and destruction, shows that it goes nowehere then people are able to see the obtuse dysfunctional ideology, goes away for a while, but stays dorment for some still. At least in Europe is not within each ohter anymore, but with contrasting cultures "outsiders" such as the muslims.

In the US the same thing, but micro, within a country. First with the South and slaves causing a civil war, now coming back again to some degree because the diversity truly being noticed, black president, middle class in need of some socialism, making the far right seems disfunctional and it responds becoming more extreme and trying to appeal to those primitive instincts of those on the far right.

fast_clay
07-28-2011, 12:49 AM
The far right wing moves in cycles. Like with the second WW, causes a lot of pain and destruction, shows that it goes nowehere then people are able to see the obtuse dysfunctional ideology, goes away for a while, but stays dorment for some still. At least in Europe is not within each ohter anymore, but with contrasting cultures "outsiders" such as the muslims.

In the US the same thing, but micro, within a country. First with the South and slaves causing a civil war, now coming back again to some degree because the diversity truly being noticed, black president, middle class in need of some socialism, making the far right seems disfunctional and it responds becoming more extreme and trying to appeal to those primitive instincts of those on the far right.

fair calls those... sadly the psychology of a singular extremist means that they never quite feel as though anyone is speaking up loud enough... i dont feel any country can eliminate breeding these few... they can only identify them...

Action Jackson
07-28-2011, 01:28 AM
Never in doubt Tangy coming here talking rubbish. Never knew that the world was a homogenous society. No, they are going to be armed guards everywhere and people running around with guns in the region, nor should it. It's the classic apply norms from where you're based to somewhere else, doesn't work like this.

Of course the far right tends to get more support for its ideas when there are economic downturns (weak blaming the weaker), when the government doesn't become accountable or passing over stuff to supranational organisations. Yes, there are problems with integration, that's another story.

GugaF1
07-28-2011, 01:42 AM
And the far right is about to trow the shit in the fan in the US congress too. The tea party and the far right position in the US now are like, since we are no longer able to hold on to power, we gone try to bring this whole place down. Our way or the highway, humpf.

Chip_s_m
07-28-2011, 01:59 AM
The far right wing moves in cycles. Like with the second WW, causes a lot of pain and destruction, shows that it goes nowehere then people are able to see the obtuse dysfunctional ideology, goes away for a while, but stays dorment for some still. At least in Europe is not within each ohter anymore, but with contrasting cultures "outsiders" such as the muslims.

In the US the same thing, but micro, within a country. First with the South and slaves causing a civil war, now coming back again to some degree because the diversity truly being noticed, black president, middle class in need of some socialism, making the far right seems disfunctional and it responds becoming more extreme and trying to appeal to those primitive instincts of those on the far right.

The Confederacy was far-right? I think you're confusing far-right with nationalistic. Nationalism is generally a part of right-wing ideology, but being right-wing implies a strong central government to achieve those nationalist purposes (i.e. fascism). The South's political ideology favored very limited government, more in line with Thomas Jefferson or Andrew Jackson, both of whom were viewed very favorably. The South had its fault (slavery), but it definitely wasn't fascist. In any case, the North was at least as nationalistic (so much so that it invaded to keep the nation in tact).

The South today is very right-wing (even though many Southerners claim to be for limited government), but that's been a process only a few decades in the making, and it had never really been truly right-wing prior, and certainly not during the mid-1800s.

The lunatic in Norway does in fact appear to be right-wing, as well.

Action Jackson
07-28-2011, 02:49 AM
And the far right is about to trow the shit in the fan in the US congress too. The tea party and the far right position in the US now are like, since we are no longer able to hold on to power, we gone try to bring this whole place down. Our way or the highway, humpf.

Never knew this thread was about the US.

Chip_s_m
07-28-2011, 03:37 AM
Never knew this thread was about the US.

Are you seriously telling me there's no connection between the US debt ceiling and a mass murder in Norway?

Lopez
07-28-2011, 08:24 AM
This tragedy has probably ripped some Europeans out of their smug sense of security. No longer can they blame senseless, violent behavior strictly on America's "gun culture", thinking they're safe from all that. The slow response by law enforcement who clearly had no idea what to do, couldn't find a boat that worked properly, and wouldn't know how to use a gun if you handed one to him to shoot Breivik with, made them farcical.

The problem with strict gun control laws is that it basically puts guns in the hands of criminals, people who will always find a way to get their hands on firearms legally or illegally, while law-abiding citizens are prevented from protecting themselves from those gun-wielding criminals.

What a huge load of BS from Tangy, NID really :lol:.

Breivik had a license for all his guns. So no, they weren't illegal.

The Nordic countries have only a few deaths per year attributable to guns, in Finland about half of them are by legal guns and the other half by illegal.

Using Finland's numbers as an example since I don't know Norway's: 120 people die in Finland each year because they are killed by another person. Of those 120, 16% are killed by guns. 7% of the 16% are killed by licensed weapons.

Remind me again, what are the numbers for the US :shrug: ?

Even if the logic that liberal gun laws protect people more is valid, then the US should be even more ashamed of the number of people shot since it should be safer like that right? :confused:

JolánGagó
07-28-2011, 08:34 AM
Finland has had several postal shootings in the recent years, one of them at a school if I recall well... so has Germany, Britain, Estonia... doesn't matter, we'll have the whole parade of holier-and-wiser-than-thou Euro citizens teaching the US how to behave :spit:

Please take your anti-American ignorance elsewhere, this is a thread about a mass killing in Norway, thank you.

Action Jackson
07-28-2011, 08:54 AM
Finland has had several postal shootings in the recent years, one of them at a school if I recall well... so has Germany, Britain, Estonia... doesn't matter, we'll have the whole parade of holier-and-wiser-than-thou Euro citizens teaching the US how to behave :spit:

Please take your anti-American ignorance elsewhere, this is a thread about a mass killing in Norway, thank you.

Yes, Finland have had their shootings, as I said each society has developed in its own particular way like anything there are positives and negatives.

Don't be naughty Tangy was having a troll though not as much as this guy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8660986/Norway-shooting-Glenn-Beck-compares-dead-teenagers-to-Hitler-youth.html
7:41PM BST 25 Jul 2011

Norway shooting: Glenn Beck compares dead teenagers to Hitler youth


Beck's controversial statements have made him one of the most divisive figures in US politics

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201107250006

By Jon Swaine, New York7:41PM BST 25 Jul 20112290 Comments
Beck said that the Labour party youth camp on the island, where 68 people were murdered, bore "disturbing" similarities to the Nazi party's notorious juvenile wing.

Beck, a multimillionaire darling of the Tea Party movement, said on his nationally-syndicated radio show: "There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing."

Torbjørn Eriksen, a former press secretary to Jens Stoltenberg, Norway's prime minister, described the comment as "a new low" for the broadcaster, who has frequently been forced to apologise for offensive remarks.

"Young political activists have gathered at Utoya for over 60 years to learn about and be part of democracy, the very opposite of what the Hitler Youth was about," he told The Daily Telegraph. "Glenn Beck's comments are ignorant, incorrect and extremely hurtful."

The Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, a Washington-based campaign group, said the remark by Beck, a free agent after being forced out of the Fox News channel earlier this year, was "absolutely disgusting".

There is other stuff there not related to the shootings.

Lopez
07-28-2011, 09:13 AM
Finland has had several postal shootings in the recent years, one of them at a school if I recall well... so has Germany, Britain, Estonia... doesn't matter, we'll have the whole parade of holier-and-wiser-than-thou Euro citizens teaching the US how to behave :spit:

Please take your anti-American ignorance elsewhere, this is a thread about a mass killing in Norway, thank you.

Oh Come On, I never said how Americans should behave, rather she was educating us poor Europeans with poor logic :rolleyes:. I'm far from being anti-American.

bokehlicious
07-28-2011, 09:20 AM
Tangy knows it better... If every people on the island were carrying some long rifle or shotgun for self defense then nothing of that tragedy would've happened... :stupid:

tangerine_dream
07-28-2011, 02:51 PM
Never in doubt Tangy coming here talking rubbish. Never knew that the world was a homogenous society. No, they are going to be armed guards everywhere and people running around with guns in the region, nor should it. It's the classic apply norms from where you're based to somewhere else, doesn't work like this.
My opinion is not rubbish, you are free to disagree with it. No, I'm not saying everybody should own a gun, but the police service should be allowed to carry concealed firearms at the very least. Is this unreasonable?

All I'm saying is that strict gun control laws does not protect peaceful citizens from violence such as Breivik's. That myth has now been exposed to those who have lived under a false sense of security, believing that such things only happened "over there" (in the US). People like Breivik will always find a way around laws, no matter how stringent.

This makes some good points:

Less Restrictive Gun Control Laws Would Not Have Stopped the Oslo Massacre (http://blogs.forbes.com/erikkain/2011/07/25/less-restrictive-gun-control-laws-would-not-have-stopped-the-oslo-massacre/)

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/norway

Oh Come On, I never said how Americans should behave, rather she was educating us poor Europeans with poor logic :rolleyes:. I'm far from being anti-American.
I wasn't trying to lecture anybody, I was bringing up an issue that's already come up in the media, and I think it's legit to discuss.

and LOL at the fool who negged me calling me a "Bush lover". I don't own a gun and I didn't vote for Bush. Try again.

star
07-28-2011, 03:43 PM
can't imagine how a civilized country lets 76 people being gunned down one by one without trying anything, the guy must have stopped when he run out of ammo. In Texas, the guy would have been killed in a matter of seconds.

Oh here come the cowboys. The Police should be well prepared and with force that is clear and fair criticism in my view, but to talk about civilians armed to the teeth like some feel in Texas is another matter.

Have either of you been to Texas? Lived there?

GugaF1
07-28-2011, 04:01 PM
Have either of you been to Texas? Lived there?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7jqLie6-Y0

Sunset of Age
07-28-2011, 04:04 PM
My opinion is not rubbish, you are free to disagree with it. No, I'm not saying everybody should own a gun, but the police service should be allowed to carry concealed firearms at the very least. Is this unreasonable?

I feel some have misunderstood your points, or perhaps I have? I get the impression some folks rather took your words out of context... :confused:
I was surprised to read that the Norwegian police usually doesn't carry guns. It's most definitely different over here, perhaps my country lost its innocence a bit earlier on... :shrug:

All I'm saying is that strict gun control laws does not protect peaceful citizens from violence such as Breivik's. That myth has now been exposed to those who have lived under a false sense of security, believing that such things only happened "over there" (in the US). People like Breivik will always find a way around laws, no matter how stringent.

Yep, and I can fully admit that that false sense of security did exist for a long time over here in Europe, whether it's painful for some to admit it or not.

Like you say, nothing will stop a total deranged FREAK like that guy from getting guns, unfortunately so.
Only a couple of weeks ago, a deranged person gunned down and killed six innocent people in a shopping mall over here. How it's possible, I don't know, but the guy was fully licensed to own his guns. Which is even more incredible as the guy apparently had a psychiatric record and was known to be trigger happy. How this managed to be, is currently subject to in-depth police investigations. In other words: indeed, full 'safety' never exists... that said, I'd like to emphasize that I - and the mass majority over here - am vehemently against 'the right to own arms for everyone' as it appears to be in certain US states, as at least not allowing guns for everyone in principle makes the risk of some looney starting to use them quite a bit smaller. At least I still think so.

I wasn't trying to lecture anybody, I was bringing up an issue that's already come up in the media, and I think it's legit to discuss.


I never got that impression either, and indeed, I think it's legit to discuss, like you say.

abraxas21
07-28-2011, 04:16 PM
Norway shooting: Glenn Beck compares dead teenagers to Hitler youth


Beck's controversial statements have made him one of the most divisive figures in US politics

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201107250006

By Jon Swaine, New York7:41PM BST 25 Jul 20112290 Comments
Beck said that the Labour party youth camp on the island, where 68 people were murdered, bore "disturbing" similarities to the Nazi party's notorious juvenile wing.

Beck, a multimillionaire darling of the Tea Party movement, said on his nationally-syndicated radio show: "There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing."

Torbjørn Eriksen, a former press secretary to Jens Stoltenberg, Norway's prime minister, described the comment as "a new low" for the broadcaster, who has frequently been forced to apologise for offensive remarks.

"Young political activists have gathered at Utoya for over 60 years to learn about and be part of democracy, the very opposite of what the Hitler Youth was about," he told The Daily Telegraph. "Glenn Beck's comments are ignorant, incorrect and extremely hurtful."

The Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, a Washington-based campaign group, said the remark by Beck, a free agent after being forced out of the Fox News channel earlier this year, was "absolutely disgusting".

There is other stuff there not related to the shootings.

glenn beck needs to be punched... really, the bloke needs a punch. it's for his own good

Or Levy
07-28-2011, 05:21 PM
Glenn beck is a moron, a punch won't get his head right.

Mjau!
07-28-2011, 06:31 PM
So much fear mongering in the media (at least up here). The actions of one psychopath does not mean we're at the dawn of an era of neo-nazi terror.

ImmzB
07-28-2011, 08:41 PM
He should never be aloud out!! TERRORIST!!

GugaF1
07-29-2011, 03:05 AM
Anders Breivik buddies, well kind of, if he could articulate his thinking this is what sounds like :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjuNuqIev8M

TMJordan
07-29-2011, 06:06 AM
F*cking muslamic ray guns.

Pirata.
07-29-2011, 06:25 AM
Anders Breivik buddies, well kind of, if he could articulate his thinking this is what sounds like :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjuNuqIev8M

Muslamic Infidel :haha: What a bunch of chavs :lol:

Beck, a multimillionaire darling of the Tea Party movement, said on his nationally-syndicated radio show: "There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing."

What a clown this guy is, absolutely pathetic, and a hypocrite at that, he runs a borderline brainwashing camp here in the states called the 9/12 Project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-12_Project) which claims to call for the country uniting to how it was the day after September 11 without political boundaries (despite his idiotic comments doing the opposite)

[Our aim is] to bring us all back to the place we were on September 12, 2001 ... we were not obsessed with red states, blue states or political parties. We were united as Americans, standing together to protect the values and principles of the greatest nation ever created."

:stupid:

So sick of this guy, can't believe we haven't deported him to some uninhabited island in the pacific.

buddyholly
07-29-2011, 02:02 PM
Glenn beck is a moron, a punch won't get his head right.

He is no more a moron than Rupert Murdoch. Both of them make millions off a willing public. Immoral or immoral gains? that is another discussion entirely.
Are the people who sell healing crystals to the public, morons? No, the morons are the ones who buy them, the sellers just exploit the willing market of eager morons.

Action Jackson
07-29-2011, 02:17 PM
One of the survivors wants to go back to Utøya as soon as possible. Adrian Pracon, who survived the mass shooting on the island of Utoya, would like to go back to the island 'as soon as possible'.

Video below
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/video-utoya-survivor-wants-to-return-2328306.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/breivik-questioned-again-over-mass-murder-2328249.html


Breivik questioned again over mass murder

Norwegians have begun a solemn day of memorials for victims of the bomb and shooting massacre, and the first funerals for the 76 victims are to be held.

"Today it is one week since Norway was hit by evil," Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg said at a memorial service in the

"We have to live with July 22, but together we will make it," he said from a stage adorned with red roses, the symbol of his governing Labour Party.

Another memorial service was being held at an Oslo mosque as suspect Anders Behring Breivik was taken to Oslo police headquarters for a second session of questioning.

Breivik was questioned for seven hours on Saturday, the day after the twin attacks targeting the government district of Oslo and a youth camp of the Labour Party on an island north-west of the capital.

He admitted to carrying out the attacks but has pleaded not guilty to terror charges, saying he is in a state of war, according to his lawyer and police.

In his speech, Labour Party youth-wing leader Eskil Pedersen said the gunman attacked Norway's core values, such as democracy, tolerance and fighting racism.

"Long before he stands before a court we can say: he has lost," Pedersen said. He vowed that the youth organisation would return to Utoya island - where the shootings occurred - next year for its annual summer gathering, a tradition that stretches back decades.

Another memorial service was being held at a mosque in an immigrant district of Oslo. Breivik is a vehement anti-Muslim.

Investigators believe the 32-year-old Norwegian acted alone, after years of meticulous planning, and have not found anything to support his claims that he is part of an anti-Muslim militant network plotting a series of coups d'etat across Europe.

Police have charged Breivik with terrorism, which carries a maximum sentence of 21 years in prison. However, it is possible the charge will change during the investigation to crimes against humanity, which carries a 30-year prison term, said Norway's top prosecutor Tor-Aksel Busch.

"Such charges will be considered when the entire police investigation has been finalised," he said. "It is an extensive investigation. We will charge Breivik for each individual killing."

A formal indictment is not expected until next year.

Police say all those killed in the terror attacks have been identified and that those who had been reported missing have been accounted for.

The statement by police chief of staff, Johan Fredriksen, marks another step forward in Norwegians' efforts to come to grips with the horror of the attacks.

abraxas21
07-29-2011, 03:22 PM
"Long before he stands before a court we can say: he has lost," Pedersen said. He vowed that the youth organisation would return to Utoya island - where the shootings occurred - next year for its annual summer gathering, a tradition that stretches back decades.

good.

impressive reaction from the norwegian people.

Or Levy
07-29-2011, 04:41 PM
I'll bet you anything there would be a lot more security there this time.

Action Jackson
07-29-2011, 07:32 PM
I'll bet you anything there would be a lot more security there this time.

Yes, it will be just like Israel.

buddyholly
07-29-2011, 07:38 PM
Probably safe, then?

Gagsquet
07-29-2011, 07:45 PM
I never saw such a dignified reaction from a country so severely hit.

Action Jackson
07-29-2011, 08:00 PM
Probably safe, then?

Funny guy.

GugaF1
07-29-2011, 09:08 PM
Yes, it will be just like Israel.

And they talk about Norweigan's "innocence" not if they manage to produce this witty.

tangerine_dream
07-29-2011, 09:35 PM
Why is he smiling? :tape: :unsure:

He has this to look forward to:

The World's Most Humane Prison (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html)

kinski76
07-29-2011, 09:48 PM
He has this to look forward to:

The World's Most Humane Prison (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html)

I suppose there's a reason why you only linked to the photogallery. Here's the accompanying article (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2000920,00.html), with supplementary info, for those who may be interested in the full story.

tangerine_dream
07-29-2011, 09:51 PM
I suppose there's a reason why you only linked to the photogallery.
What reason would that be? I didn't know there was an accompanying article. Thanks for the link.

kinski76
07-29-2011, 10:12 PM
What reason would that be? I didn't know there was an accompanying article. Thanks for the link.

I figured you were aware of the article. Some people lately like to make a point about the perceived "laxness" of Norwegian prisons. I apologize if I jumped to conclusions. This photogallery, seen on its own, reads like a real estate brochure. So I thought the added info might be helpful.

Jimnik
07-29-2011, 10:16 PM
He has this to look forward to:

The World's Most Humane Prison (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html)
Typical Europe. And that isn't even as nice as the prison I saw in France.

Half the guards are girls. One step closer to having mixed prisons.

ImmzB
07-30-2011, 02:03 AM
:haha: That guy is a joker, he obviously doesn't know nothing!

ImmzB
07-30-2011, 02:04 AM
If the person who killed 90+ people in Norway was a Muslim, the Press would have declared him as terrorist. For now though, he is just an 'Assailant ', 'Attacker' (Reuters), 'Gunman' (BBC, CNN & Al Jazeera). Looks like 'Terrorist ' is a name reserved for Muslims? The US Dept of State calls it an 'Act of Violence', Not an 'Act of Terrorism' . Share this status and let the world know, HYPOCRISY is leading us astray.

REAL TALK!

Action Jackson
11-29-2011, 12:26 PM
http://www.smh.com.au/world/norway-gunman-breivik-declared-insane-20111130-1o5in.html

Norway gunman Breivik declared insane

Anders Behring Breivik was declared insane and may face compulsory treatment for killing 77 people in his July 22 twin attacks on Oslo government offices and a Labor Party youth camp south of the Norwegian capital.

Breivik suffers from paranoid schizophrenia and is "delusional" according to a court ordered evaluation, prosecutor Svein Holden said yesterday at a press conference in Oslo, after being presented with a 243-page report by forensic psychiatrists Torgeir Husby and Synne Soerheim. The report was based on 13 talks with Breivik over a 36-hor period.

The evaluation, which will need approval by the Board of Forensic Medicine, may mean that the 32-year-old will be placed in compulsory psychiatric treatment, potentially for as long as life, rather than prison. A trial will be needed to establish guilt, prosecutor Inga Bejer Engh said at the briefing.

Breivik, an Oslo native, has admitted to the shootings at the Utoeya Island youth camp that killed 69, including some as young as 14, and to detonating a car bomb that took eight lives. Breivik said that he sought to inflict the "greatest possible loss" to the ruling Labor Party and railed in a manifesto posted on the Internet against "cultural Marxism" and "Islamization."

Earlier this month an Oslo court extended his custody by 12 weeks to February 6 while restrictions on correspondence and visitors were prolonged by eight weeks. A ban on media was extended by four weeks. Breivik, calling himself a commander in the Norwegian resistance, has refused to recognize the legitimacy of the court and has demanded to be released.

The judge denied a request at the time by Breivik to address survivors and relatives of the victims.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/norway-gunman-breivik-declared-insane-20111130-1o5in.html#ixzz1f6IaUAOM

abraxas21
11-29-2011, 12:52 PM
expected

Garson007
11-29-2011, 12:54 PM
Institutionalisation would be better than prison, since there is no life imprisonment in Norway and prison would allow more communication and intellectual freedoms with other inmates.

Shirogane
11-29-2011, 01:24 PM
http://www.smh.com.au/world/norway-gunman-breivik-declared-insane-20111130-1o5in.html

Norway gunman Breivik declared insane
NID.

star
11-29-2011, 04:25 PM
Institutionalisation would be better than prison, since there is no life imprisonment in Norway and prison would allow more communication and intellectual freedoms with other inmates.

I would think that life in an institution for the mentally ill would allow just as much or perhaps even more communication and intellectual freedoms with other inmates. Perhaps I don’t’ understand what you mean.

JolánGagó
11-29-2011, 04:28 PM
I would think that life in an institution for the mentally ill would allow just as much or perhaps even more communication and intellectual freedoms with other inmates. Perhaps I don’t’ understand what you mean.

Not really. Inmates have certain civil rights and their treatment is more monitorized from outside, specially in high-profile cases. Institutionalized ones are infinitely easier to have under control, just a shot by a nurse and voilà!

Action Jackson
11-29-2011, 10:05 PM
Not really. Inmates have certain civil rights and their treatment is more monitorized from outside, specially in high-profile cases. Institutionalized ones are infinitely easier to have under control, just a shot by a nurse and voilà!

This, he will never be released.

star
11-30-2011, 12:24 AM
Not really. Inmates have certain civil rights and their treatment is more monitorized from outside, specially in high-profile cases. Institutionalized ones are infinitely easier to have under control, just a shot by a nurse and voilà!

Here, people in mental institutions also have civil rights.

They certainly aren’t kept in solitary confinement and can communicate with family and lawyers more freely than can a prison inmate.

Although that guy who shot Regan is probably never going to be released completely, he does get extended visits for over a week at a time outside the hospital.

JolánGagó
11-30-2011, 12:40 AM
Someone declared insane is stripped of every level of control over himself and his circumstances, including the inner core of him, the mind. Doesn't happen that way with inmates.

Getta
11-30-2011, 12:46 AM
Here, people in mental institutions also have civil rights.

They certainly aren’t kept in solitary confinement and can communicate with family and lawyers more freely than can a prison inmate.

Although that guy who shot Regan is probably never going to be released completely, he does get extended visits for over a week at a time outside the hospital.

Europeans are not as sweet pies as Tangy thinks.

tangerine_dream
11-30-2011, 02:49 AM
Europeans are not as sweet pies as Tangy thinks.
:rolleyes: How backwards is it that he has to be declared criminally insane in order to be locked up for life, instead of being found guilty of premeditated first-degree murder?

abraxas21
11-30-2011, 04:27 AM
:rolleyes: How backwards is it that he has to be declared criminally insane in order to be locked up for life, instead of being found guilty of premeditated first-degree murder?

:facepalm:

are you implying the guy isnt really insane?

Mimi
11-30-2011, 07:20 AM
how to define whether a person is insane or not? personally I think a person who knows how to take care of himself, do complicated things as making bombs, making plans to attack and killed people are not as these require a clear mind to do so. I would prefer to call him heartless and brutal.

does this mean he gonna gets rid of prison? i hate people using insane as an excuse to get rid of murder. This does not serve the poor victims with justice.

Mae
11-30-2011, 10:35 AM
how to define whether a person is insane or not? personally I think a person who knows how to take care of himself, do complicated things as making bombs, making plans to attack and killed people are not as these require a clear mind to do so. I would prefer to call him heartless and brutal.

does this mean he gonna gets rid of prison? i hate people using insane as an excuse to get rid of murder. This does not serve the poor victims with justice.

I agree with you. The guy is a terrorist as far as I'm concerned. And terrorists are people with a mission while someone that is truly insane is not capable of having a mission!

abraxas21
11-30-2011, 12:18 PM
how to define whether a person is insane or not? personally I think a person who knows how to take care of himself, do complicated things as making bombs, making plans to attack and killed people are not as these require a clear mind to do so. I would prefer to call him heartless and brutal.

does this mean he gonna gets rid of prison? i hate people using insane as an excuse to get rid of murder. This does not serve the poor victims with justice.

you should have been in the ACC

i have never bought your 'im too nice' image

Action Jackson
11-30-2011, 12:24 PM
how to define whether a person is insane or not? personally I think a person who knows how to take care of himself, do complicated things as making bombs, making plans to attack and killed people are not as these require a clear mind to do so. I would prefer to call him heartless and brutal.

does this mean he gonna gets rid of prison? i hate people using insane as an excuse to get rid of murder. This does not serve the poor victims with justice.

I will make this simple. He is not going to be released, he will be committed to a psychiatric clinic and Jolan Gago has explained it clearly.

bokehlicious
11-30-2011, 12:29 PM
you should have been in the ACC

i have never bought your 'im too nice' image

Too true.

MariaV
11-30-2011, 12:45 PM
Do you have to be so mean to everyone guys? :rolleyes:

Someone declared insane is stripped of every level of control over himself and his circumstances, including the inner core of him, the mind. Doesn't happen that way with inmates.

That's good then.

Aloimeh
11-30-2011, 01:28 PM
I will make this simple. He is not going to be released, he will be committed to a psychiatric clinic and Jolan Gago has explained it clearly.

Any chance some psychiatrist down the line (say 10-15 years from now) decides that he's now "safe" for society?

Sad commentary on Scandinavian justice that someone who massacres dozens of people can't even get a proper life sentence.

Action Jackson
11-30-2011, 01:38 PM
Any chance some psychiatrist down the line (say 10-15 years from now) decides that he's now "safe" for society?

Sad commentary on Scandinavian justice that someone who massacres dozens of people can't even get a proper life sentence.

Max prison sentence is 21 years, but there are provisos to keep people locked up for longer. It's not a sad commentary at all, people making ill informed comments about the situation. He is a danger to society and always will be, therefore it's very unlikely he will be released.

Court appearance isn't until April. It's not a done deal and if he doesn't go to jail, he will be in the high security mental unit which would be better as he isn't going to mix with other extreme right wing prisoners.

SloKid
11-30-2011, 02:00 PM
you should have been in the ACC

i have never bought your 'im too nice' image
I've seen her post snide remarks about people/stuff not concerning her faves, so I'm not sure where that image comes from. :p
Any chance some psychiatrist down the line (say 10-15 years from now) decides that he's now "safe" for society?

Sad commentary on Scandinavian justice that someone who massacres dozens of people can't even get a proper life sentence.
I would say no, mainly because of the nature of the case. I'd imagine everyone involved would be well aware of the consequences of such a change in the decision.

And it's not a sad commentary at all, there are legal instruments in place that would've ensured that he spend a hell of a long time in jail in case this medical evaluation doesn't stick. You'd find a lot sadder commentaries of a nation's justice elsewhere in the world with the nature and goals of sentencing.

star
11-30-2011, 04:11 PM
Jolan, I’m surprised that people in Spain have no rights once they are confined to a mental institution. I thought those days were long over. I’d be surprised to learn that in Norway there was no possible way for a person in a mental institution to ever be released out into society even if it were in a limited manner.

Sunset of Age
11-30-2011, 06:24 PM
Wise decision, if that tool is indeed schizophrenic.

star
11-30-2011, 06:30 PM
Wise decision, if that tool is indeed schizophrenic.

It does seem that he is mentally ill, don’t you think?

Sunset of Age
11-30-2011, 07:00 PM
It does seem that he is mentally ill, don’t you think?

Absolutely, I admit I had that opinion right from the start of all of this total tragedy (a rather premature opinion, yes...). "Glad" to read that it seems to have been affirmed by the psychiatrics, however bad it is... :o
Apparently the Norwegian punishments are quite likewise to the ones we have in my country. He'd get put up in a guarded mental clinic in my country, and from the looks of it, it will happen to him in Norway just the same.
Perhaps even for the rest of his life, and I consider that good judgement, as I am vehemently against a death penalty. Yes, even in an atrocious case like this one obviously is. :sad:

JolánGagó
11-30-2011, 07:08 PM
Jolan, I’m surprised that people in Spain have no rights once they are confined to a mental institution. I thought those days were long over. I’d be surprised to learn that in Norway there was no possible way for a person in a mental institution to ever be released out into society even if it were in a limited manner.

Star, I haven't said "people in Spain have no rights once they are confined to a mental institution".

I think I put it clearly and in few words in my previous posts. Declared "insane", institutionalize people are the most controlled, they are put in a position of total dependence, their rights deposited in the hands of others (shrinks, nurses, relatives, etc) to administer in an absolute way, you're stuffed in medication and basically totally lose any say in your fate. You become insaner with time. In Spain only a judge can order institutionalization and only if you're dangerous to others and after medical declaration of insanity.

That man is never gonna get out and rightly so.

star
11-30-2011, 07:32 PM
Star, I haven't said "people in Spain have no rights once they are confined to a mental institution".

I think I put it clearly and in few words in my previous posts. Declared "insane", institutionalize people are the most controlled, they are put in a position of total dependence, their rights deposited in the hands of others (shrinks, nurses, relatives, etc) to administer in an absolute way, you're stuffed in medication and basically totally lose any say in your fate. You become insaner with time. In Spain only a judge can order institutionalization and only if you're dangerous to others and after medical declaration of insanity.

That man is never gonna get out and rightly so.

That description sounds a lot like they have no rights once they are confined.

I think any mental health professional would have a hard time saying that this murderer was no longer a danger to others, but it could happen. This isn’t to say that I think the decision to confine him as insane is wrong. I think the man is insane. My only disagreement was with the assessment that those confined to mental institutions had fewer rights than those who are imprisoned and did not have the same access to social contacts.

Sunset of Age
11-30-2011, 07:43 PM
That description sounds a lot like they have no rights once they are confined.

I can only tell how it is in my country, but yes, once a 'killa' (or rapist, or whatever) has been consigned to a penal mental institution, there are only very little rights, or even chances to ever get out of there (in quite some cases rightly so, in some others.... not). It's purely up to the forensic psychiatrists involved to ever be able to end this confinement, reason why a lot of accused of severe crimes in my country even refuse to cooperate with the psychological/psychiatric assessment/investigations right from the start of the legal procedure. In contrary to public opinion, an assignment to a mental institution is way worse than one to prison, as the convicted will never be sure when he/she will ever be released. If he/she ever gets released at all.
At least, that's how it is over here in The Netherlands. In contrary to popular beliefs apparently existing in the USA, Europe is NOT a 'playground for criminals'. Far from that.

I think any mental health professional would have a hard time saying that this murderer was no longer a danger to others, but it could happen. This isn’t to say that I think the decision to confine him as insane is wrong. I think the man is insane. My only disagreement was with the assessment that those confined to mental institutions had fewer rights than those who are imprisoned and did not have the same access to social contacts.

I can't tell you otherwise. Cannot speak for the Norwegian situation but I get the impression that it resembles the Dutch situation a lot.

JolánGagó
11-30-2011, 07:50 PM
In Spain as Karin explained too.

Sunset of Age
11-30-2011, 07:59 PM
In Spain as Karin explained too.

Thanks, wasn't sure about that, but did have that feeling that it is.

I cannot say for sure which is better, just 'dump-him-in-jail-forever' or whatever is done to :stupid:s like this case over here in Europe, but at least they'll get some kind of psychiatric treatment over here - whether it works or not, I think that's the more humane treatment to schizo's whenever having committed a terrible crime like this fellow... whatever one may think of it (and yes, his deed was indeed horrendous), this fellow and likewise other criminals are first and foremost SICK.

An opinion completely due to my personal (non-religious!) beliefs in human nature. :angel:

Action Jackson
12-01-2011, 01:59 AM
It's clear Breivik won't get out whether he is locked up in prison or a mental institution.

Action Jackson
04-16-2012, 08:16 AM
One reports says he is sane, the other one says he is insane. Trial has begun now.

The prosecutors can't stuff this up. Sane, then he is guilty 21 years with continual extensions, then if he is insane then locked up permanently. Needles to say there is a massive media circus.

Topspindoctor
04-16-2012, 09:46 AM
Good to see Euro justice system letting mass murderers get away under the guise of "insanity" - all for tax payers' money of course :D

People like this being left alive is what's wrong with society today.

Action Jackson
04-16-2012, 10:00 AM
Good to see Euro justice system letting mass murderers get away under the guise of "insanity" - all for tax payers' money of course :D

People like this being left alive is what's wrong with society today.

Stop talking rubbish. Insane, he isn't getting out of an institution and he'll be found guilty so life in jail.

No death penalty in Norway and it's the same in Australia.

tripwires
04-16-2012, 10:03 AM
Good to see Euro justice system letting mass murderers get away under the guise of "insanity" - all for tax payers' money of course :D

People like this being left alive is what's wrong with society today.

From a purely layman perspective, I don't think sane people would do what he did.

Topspindoctor
04-16-2012, 10:19 AM
Stop talking rubbish. Insane, he isn't getting out of an institution and he'll be found guilty so life in jail.

No death penalty in Norway and it's the same in Australia.

Leaving people like that alive is a big mistake. It's very unfortunate that the worst these sick bastards will get is a prison sentence (which will probably be cut in half for good behavior). As far as I am concerned anyone who blew up so many people deserves to be put down like a rabid dog, insane or not.

Yeah, there is no death penalty in Australia and very little punishment for crimes so that emboldens criminals to do w/e they want. We have pedophiles being released and put on the streets next to normal people with kids without their knowledge to protect the criminal.

Action Jackson
04-16-2012, 10:23 AM
From a purely layman perspective, I don't think sane people would do what he did.

Well both reports are going to be available and the judge will decide whether he is sane or not. Even then he is not going to be released whether he is insane or not this is among the reasons where the 21 years can be extended, as he is still a danger to society.

Jimnik
04-16-2012, 07:41 PM
Good to see Euro justice system letting mass murderers get away under the guise of "insanity" - all for tax payers' money of course :D

People like this being left alive is what's wrong with society today.
This is a typical Texas attitude, I'm surprised to hear it from an Australian.

There are better and more practical deterrents than death. Even most American states have come to realize this.

Sunset of Age
04-16-2012, 11:45 PM
Well both reports are going to be available and the judge will decide whether he is sane or not. Even then he is not going to be released whether he is insane or not this is among the reasons where the 21 years can be extended, as he is still a danger to society.
Exactly. Whether or not he'll be declared a nutter, the guy will most probably spent the rest of his life behind bars, whether in jail or in a penal mental instution (one might well start a discussion on which is actually worse ;)) - and rightly so.

Norway, just like any other sane, sensible and humane country, does not have the death penalty (:tape:), but that doesn't mean that justice won't be done to this creep. Keeping my fingers crossed that it will.

Topspindoctor
04-17-2012, 01:12 AM
This is a typical Texas attitude, I'm surprised to hear it from an Australian.

There are better and more practical deterrents than death. Even most American states have come to realize this.

This is not about practicality or removing the unwanted element from society. It's about retribution. I know if someone hurt my family member, I'd want that fucker DEAD. If someone deliberately kills a person, they should be put to death. If someone sexually assaults another person (the other word is censored on this forum), they should be castrated. Simple as that. The whole notion of these sick fucks being shielded by the politically correct justice system is repulsive to me. If it were up to me, I'd put half of criminals in jails today into gas chamber.

And, no, I don't buy into bullshit philosophies of "an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind". This ridiculous moral nonsense HAS to stop. The main reason these sick bastards are even comitting crimes is because idiots will say "Oh he's insane, it's ok", let's give him a slap on the wrist and release him back where he can prey on more victims. It's ridiculous that actually wanting proper justice is a quick way to be labeled as a redneck. This society is sick and most posts in this thread by PC pansies only further proves my point.

tripwires
04-17-2012, 01:24 AM
This is not about practicality or removing the unwanted element from society. It's about retribution. I know if someone hurt my family member, I'd want that fucker DEAD. If someone deliberately kills a person, they should be put to death. If someone sexually assaults another person (the other word is censored on this forum), they should be castrated. Simple as that. The whole notion of these sick fucks being shielded by the politically correct justice system is repulsive to me. If it were up to me, I'd put half of criminals in jails today into gas chamber.

And, no, I don't buy into bullshit philosophies of "an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind". This ridiculous moral nonsense HAS to stop. The main reason these sick bastards are even comitting crimes is because idiots will say "Oh he's insane, it's ok", let's give him a slap on the wrist and release him back where he can prey on more victims. It's ridiculous that actually wanting proper justice is a quick way to be labeled as a redneck. This society is sick and most posts in this thread by PC pansies only further proves my point.

:facepalm: Sounds like you would've fit right in in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. If someone steals he deserves to have his hand chopped off, right? I'd be more sympathetic to an argument for the death penalty based on practical grounds (taxpayers' money blah blah); but the criminal justice system doesn't exist - shouldn't exist - as state-sanctioned revenge.

But then, I can't expect you to get that seeing as you're one of the vilest posters around.

tripwires
04-17-2012, 01:30 AM
This guy is a nutjob.

Breivik showed no emotion, looking down at the table in front of him.

At the end of the indictment, he told the court: "I acknowledge the acts, but not criminal guilt - I claim I was doing it in self-defence."

Breivik has already confessed to the attacks on 22 July. In the car bombing outside government buildings in Oslo, eight people were killed and 209 wounded.

He killed 67 people and wounded 33 - most of them teenagers - in his shooting spree at the youth camp on Utoeya. A further two people died by falling or drowning.

At a court hearing in February, Breivik said his killing spree was "a preventative attack against state traitors", who were guilty of "ethnic cleansing" because they supported a multicultural society.

His lawyer has said his only regret is that "he did not go further".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17724535

Topspindoctor
04-17-2012, 01:40 AM
:facepalm: Sounds like you would've fit right in in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan.

Never liked delusional religious fanatics, so you're wrong there.


If someone steals he deserves to have his hand chopped off, right?

Stealing = sexual assualt, torture or murder? Really? I am talking about SERIOUS issues like mass murder and terrorism and you're bringing up some lame backward law practiced in middle eastern countries as your "argument"? No, thieves shouldn't have their arms amputated - however they should either reimburse the victim or if they can't, then they should serve a prison sentence.

I'd be more sympathetic to an argument for the death penalty based on practical grounds (taxpayers' money blah blah); but the criminal justice system doesn't exist - shouldn't exist - as state-sanctioned revenge.

Why not? It would be a great deterrent and would give the victims at least some satisfaction that the offender was executed or at least PROPERLY punished. Sometimes you have to put aside the pragmatism and treat the offenders with the same cruelty they showed their victims.

But then, I can't expect you to get that seeing as you're one of the vilest posters around.

Your opinion + irrelevant at that. Can you actually give a decent argument as to why retribution based justice system is flawed? Keep the morals and ethics out of this - because someone who murders dozens of people forfeits his rights to be judged as a human being.

tripwires
04-17-2012, 02:37 AM
Why not? It would be a great deterrent and would give the victims at least some satisfaction that the offender was executed or at least PROPERLY punished. Sometimes you have to put aside the pragmatism and treat the offenders with the same cruelty they showed their victims.


No, you don't. The criminal justice system is not state-sanctioned revenge. It's called "justice" for a reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_justice


Your opinion + irrelevant at that. Can you actually give a decent argument as to why retribution based justice system is flawed? Keep the morals and ethics out of this - because someone who murders dozens of people forfeits his rights to be judged as a human being.

You cannot divorce issues of morality and ethics from discussions about the criminal justice system because the criminal justice system exists to punish breaches of morality and ethics. I would love to engage you in a lengthy discussion on this issue but I honestly cannot be bothered beacuse you've already demonstrated that your idea of justice is revenge for the victim, which is deeply flawed. The theory of justice is an extremely complex one and I would just say that criminal justice is a balancing act between justice to the victim and fairness to the offender and finding a proportionate punishment to the crime that's morally acceptable. I can already imagine you scoffing at this point and dismissing my argument as liberal fluff, but think about why you're so repulsed to the idea of chopping off a thief's hand for stealing. The punishment is disproportionate to the crime; it's too harsh and therefore it feels kind of unjust, which makes it sort of...morally repugnant.

That's how a lot of people feel about the death penalty and castration as punishment for rapists. You don't see criminals as human beings but the fact is, they are. They are as much as person as you and me with the same capacity to feel physical pain and mental suffering. Why should we give a fuck, you may ask? Because the limits of justice demand that we consider the criminal too when punishment is meted out. The punishment has to satisfy the victim AND to be fair to the offender - that's essentially what criminal justice is about. Of course, the concept of what is fair has evolved a lot over the centuries which is why some (enlightened) countries today have abolished the death penalty (if you think about it, the death penalty is inherently hypocritical - you're taking away someone's life for taking away someone else's life). Thankfully, I don't live the part of the world where the national criminal "justice" system think it's fair to castrate a rapist, because that goes beyond the limits of what justice requires and becomes revenge. What if the rapist were remorseful, genuinely regretting what he did? Does he deserve to be castrated? Jailing him for 10, 20 years is adequate and just punishment and a long enough period to reflect on his crime.

Not all criminals are evil people. Some of them actually rehabilitate and come out of jail as decent people. I'm not holding my breath for this Norwegian nutjob to be one of them, but obviously he's the exception rather than the norm. And even he doesn't deserve the death penalty.

Topspindoctor
04-17-2012, 03:06 AM
You cannot divorce issues of morality and ethics from discussions about the criminal justice system because the criminal justice system exists to punish breaches of morality and ethics. I would love to engage you in a lengthy discussion on this issue but I honestly cannot be bothered beacuse you've already demonstrated that your idea of justice is revenge for the victim, which is deeply flawed. The theory of justice is an extremely complex one and I would just say that criminal justice is a balancing act between justice to the victim and fairness to the offender and finding a proportionate punishment to the crime that's morally acceptable. I can already imagine you scoffing at this point and dismissing my argument as liberal fluff, but think about why you're so repulsed to the idea of chopping off a thief's hand for stealing. The punishment is disproportionate to the crime; it's too harsh and therefore it feels kind of unjust, which makes it sort of...morally repugnant.

Cutting off a thief's arm is excessive because the damage he caused is material in nature. It has nothing to do with morals and ethics. Please understand that I am not a psycho who would advocate cutting off someone's limbs because of a theft. What you're failing to see is I am talking about the most serious crimes such as murder, sexual assault, torture etc. In these cases, killing the offender is actually quite proportionate and in a lot of cases inadequate. A murderer who slowly tortures his victimis to death being executed by a firing squad is actually inadequate punishment as the justice would dictate that he'd have to undergo the same torture he inflicted on his victims. A mass murderer being gassed is actually quite benign considering the amount of lives he took. Are you seriously going to argue that executing a criminal who took dozens of lives as morally repugnant? If so, I am afraid any further debate with you is pointless.

That's how a lot of people feel about the death penalty and castration as punishment for rapists. You don't see criminals as human beings but the fact is, they are. They are as much as person as you and me with the same capacity to feel physical pain and mental suffering.

Agreed. That's why the same physical pain and mental suffering should be inflicted on them to show what their victim felt. The despair and helplessness they will feel and the physical agony. It's perfect. Why should a coward who tortures his victims be given councelling and pity? Why should a murderer be pitied? I can honestly tell you that I could shoot a pedophile and feel as much remorse as I feel when squashing a cockroach.

Why should we give a fuck, you may ask? Because the limits of justice demand that we consider the criminal too when punishment is meted out.

Limits of justice that we set for ourselves which may not be necessarily correct. Right now, an average person in the western world is far less protected than a criminal.

The punishment has to satisfy the victim AND to be fair to the offender - that's essentially what criminal justice is about. Of course, the concept of what is fair has evolved a lot over the centuries which is why some (enlightened) countries today have abolished the death penalty (if you think about it, the death penalty is inherently hypocritical - you're taking away someone's life for taking away someone else's life)

It's not hypocritcal. It's justice. If you have no regard for a life of another, then the society should not have regard for your own life. What is hard to understand about that?

Thankfully, I don't live the part of the world where the national criminal "justice" system think it's fair to castrate a rapist, because that goes beyond the limits of what justice requires and becomes revenge. What if the rapist were remorseful, genuinely regretting what he did? Does he deserve to be castrated? Jailing him for 10, 20 years is adequate and just punishment and a long enough period to reflect on his crime.

Revenge IS justice. I don't care if a rapist becomes remorseful, he has to be punished for the particular crime he has comitted. I never had an impulse to **** a woman, why should someone who does get a slap on the wrist get away with it just because he said "I'm sorry"? Yes, it is brutal. Yes it is cruel. But people need to realize that we can't play nice with these sickos. Once they feel the agony, the pain and the ultimate helplessness, maybe it will serve as a deterrent to others.

Not all criminals are evil people. Some of them actually rehabilitate and come out of jail as decent people. I'm not holding my breath for this Norwegian nutjob to be one of them, but obviously he's the exception rather than the norm. And even he doesn't deserve the death penalty.

All. Anyone who commits a heinous crime is already lost to this society because a normal person is not a rapist, murderer, torturer etc. The rehab programs are a waste of time and money. We should really simplify things instead of wasting time with these psychos. Trust me, if we started treating criminals like they treated their victims, we'd instill a great deal of fear into those who are considering comitting a violent crime. And that is a good thing.

Most criminals are cowards by nature and wouldn't dare to torture the weak and helpless if they knew the same fate awaited them if they got caught.

tripwires
04-17-2012, 03:19 AM
Are you seriously going to argue that executing a criminal who took dozens of lives as morally repugnant? If so, I am afraid any further debate with you is pointless.


Yes to the first sentence and I agree to the second sentence. I've pretty much said everything I wanted to say in my previous post so all I'll say now is that you need a hug. :awww:

Hewitt =Legend
04-17-2012, 03:25 AM
T-Doc... mate... you're f*cked. Good god someone give him a cuddle..

Ajde :D

Action Jackson
04-17-2012, 03:25 AM
Underspin apprentice Breivik isn't going to be put to death no matter how hard you want it. It's not like hey guilty, then killed the next day.

Topspindoctor
04-17-2012, 03:26 AM
Yes to the first sentence and I agree to the second sentence. I've pretty much said everything I wanted to say in my previous post so all I'll say now is that you need a hug. :awww:

As you say, however I am pretty sure your reaction would be different in regards to justice if someone brutally killed YOUR loved one. Or if not, then I'd have to question your own morals.

Topspindoctor
04-17-2012, 03:27 AM
Underspin apprentice Breivik isn't going to be put to death no matter how hard you want it. It's not like hey guilty, then killed the next day.

I know :shrug: which is the most disturbing thing in this whole scenario. If it were up to me, he'd die a slow and very agonizing death.

tripwires
04-17-2012, 03:33 AM
As you say, however I am pretty sure your reaction would be different in regards to justice if someone brutally killed YOUR loved one. Or if not, then I'd have to question your own morals.

Yes, possibly, which is why the criminal justice system shouldn't be a free-for-all avenue for revenge and it has to remain objective and separate from the emotions of the aggrieved. There's a fine but crucial difference between justice and revenge. The criminal justice system distributes JUSTICE, not revenge.

tripwires
04-17-2012, 03:33 AM
T-Doc... mate... you're f*cked. Good god someone give him a cuddle..

Ajde :D

You live in the same country as him. You do it. :D

Action Jackson
04-17-2012, 03:38 AM
This horrible massacre happening in my country and as much as Breivik is wasting oxygen in this world. The Norwegian laws need to be respected and the death penalty isn't coming back.

Topspindoctor
04-17-2012, 03:39 AM
Yes, probably, which is why the criminal justice system shouldn't be a free-for-all avenue for revenge and it has to remain objective and separate from the emotions of the aggrieved. There's a fine but crucial difference between justice and revenge. The criminal justice system distributes JUSTICE, not revenge.

Once again I have to ask is there a reason for that other than "justice system shouldn't be based on revenge"? Emotions are not part of this at all. Why do you feel criminals deserve softer treatment than their victims. I am honestly interested to hear your view. If someone murdered your family would you feel satisified with jail sentences, rehabilitation programmes and councelling? In my view giving criminals a slap on the wrist is not JUSTICE. It's a farce.

Topspindoctor
04-17-2012, 03:42 AM
This horrible massacre happening in my country and as much as Breivik is wasting oxygen in this world. The Norwegian laws need to be respected and the death penalty isn't coming back.

I never advocated an angry mob gathering and burning him at stake (though it would be appropriate). I am arguing about the laws being flawed, allowing criminals to get a slap on the wrist for crimes they should be executed for. In any case, this discussion is 100% pointless as the death penalty isn't coming back and everyone here is still going to hold a different view in regards to modern justice system. :wavey:

tripwires
04-17-2012, 05:00 AM
Once again I have to ask is there a reason for that other than "justice system shouldn't be based on revenge"? Emotions are not part of this at all. Why do you feel criminals deserve softer treatment than their victims. I am honestly interested to hear your view. If someone murdered your family would you feel satisified with jail sentences, rehabilitation programmes and councelling? In my view giving criminals a slap on the wrist is not JUSTICE. It's a farce.

Broadly speaking, I personally feel that the law should stand on a higher moral ground than the individuals and people it seeks to order; that's where it should theoretically get its persuasive moral authority. If a liar told me that I shouldn't lie, I wouldn't be stuffed to listen to that person because he's being a hypocrite. Likewise, if the law pronounces murder as a crime, it shouldn't also take away the life of someone who is in breach. I realise that there are tons of philosophers like HLA Hart who don't think that law is necessarily connected to morality, but I happen to take the opposite view, especially for criminal law. Crimes are usually crimes because they are immoral to some degree and for me, the law loses its moral suasion if it stoops to the level of the kind of conduct that it prohibits.

You say "softer treatment" but it's really just a punishment that is proportionate, fair and just. Revenge is antithetical to the concept of justice because revenge has no regard to how the offender is treated; on the other hand, justice is as much about punishment as it is about fairness. I would hardly describe life imprisonment for murderers as a "slap on the wrist", and if you think about it, the psychological torture of spending the rest of your life in jail could actually be worse for some people than having your life taken away from you.

As for your last question, I honestly don't know. I could easily imagine myself throwing away my stance against the death penalty in such a situation as much as I could imagine myself not changing my opinion at all. But that is precisely my point: the criminal justice system cannot be too caught up in how the victim would feel about the offender's punishment because it doesn't only serve the interests of the victim. Otherwise, why even have sentencing laws? Might as well have a trial, a guilty verdict and let the victim/victim's family do whatever they want to the convicted criminal.

Action Jackson
04-17-2012, 05:04 AM
What does this have to actually to do with the case? We know Norway has no death penalty, there wasn't a massive movement after this massacre for it to be restored.

Breivik is not getting a slap on the wrist, if he was then he'd be released.

tripwires
04-17-2012, 05:15 AM
Actually it's pretty apparent that he's at least slightly nuts if he really believes that he killed all those people in "self-defence". See the article I posted in the previous page. That's some seriously warped reasoning, to say the least.

Action Jackson
04-17-2012, 05:18 AM
Yes, he is delusional. The people alive from that day were happy to see him, seeing him look so small with a weak voice when he was the big man with a gun such a contrast.

Kat_YYZ
04-17-2012, 05:19 AM
Revenge-based justice doesn't work because it creates a never-ending cycle of revenge. So you execute the murderer and his son is like "Hey, that was my Dad. He took me fishing and read me books and told me he loved me. He was a great Dad." Kid doesn't care about what you say Dad did; he doesn't believe Daddy did it; or if he did it then it wasn't his fault -- government set him up, or those pills the doctors gave him made him crazy (fits with the conspiracy theories such a kid will develop to rationalize his criminal dad's actions: aren't those doctors in cahoots with the State, anyways, trying to control us all?). All the kid knows is that someone killed the dad he loved, and when he grows up he's going to kill those people, or if they're not around, then he'll get their kids. And so it keeps going.

Look at those folks in Israel/the West Bank. On and on it goes for 60 years. Every suicide bomber thinks his bomb belt is gonna be special, never mind the dozens who did the same thing before him and accomplished nothing. Gotta get "them" back for some IDF assault on a daycare or something. It never ends.

The problem with revenge-based "justice" is no one ever says "yeah, you know what? I deserved that punishment. All good, bro. We're even now." No one thinks they deserved it, and no one wants to be even; they wanna be one up.

Arkulari
04-17-2012, 05:21 AM
The death penalty is pretty difficult to evaluate because there's always the chance of the person being innocent or with mental issues and there's no turning back.

But I do believe Norwegian laws should be stronger, they are far too lenient about murder and this should be made an example of, Breivik should never see the light of the day as a free man again.

Although if he goes out in one of the blocks, I guess he'll be murdered but that won't be a fitting end for him.

There are worse crimes than murder and worse punishments than death.

And for the revenge situation, it is very easy to see from an outsider's point of view, if that motherfucker had killed one of my kids, I'd go for him regardless of consequences, same if I ever see someone molesting a kid, whether is mine or not I'll just grab the nearest sharp object and stab that piece of shit to death, it would be a situation where I wouldn't be able to think rationally, I'd see red.

Action Jackson
04-17-2012, 05:25 AM
I don't like the death penalty, because it is in a way a stopping point to suffering, you just stop living a fucked up life and that's it.

But I do believe Norwegian laws should be stronger, they are far too lenient about murder and this should be made an example of, Breivik should never see the light of the day as a free man again.

Although if he goes out in one of the blocks, I guess he'll be murdered but that won't be a fitting end for him.

There are worse crimes than murder and worse punishments than death.

How many times do I have to explain this.

The 21 year maximum sentence can be extended if the criminal is a menace to society (Breivik) fits this, therefore if he is declared sane, the sentence gets extended of course it will be appealed. If he is insane, then he won't get out.

Norwegian laws are good enough.

tripwires
04-17-2012, 05:29 AM
If he's declared insane he'd be locked away in a mental institution permanently?

Action Jackson
04-17-2012, 05:30 AM
If he's declared insane he'd be locked away in a mental institution permanently?

Yes, he isn't getting out. He will be institutionalised.

Arkulari
04-17-2012, 05:30 AM
I just hope he does full time, with all that "study" and "work" bullshit many criminals get it easy enough, that should only be for people who aren't a danger to society.

And I don't mean just the Norwegian case, there's this piece of shit in Colombia who molested and murdered tons of kids and is about to go out because he became a Pastor and is now preaching "the word of God"

Action Jackson
04-17-2012, 05:35 AM
If Breivik gets out, there would be such an outrage that it wouldn't be worth doing. He is this century's Quisling within Norway.

tripwires
04-17-2012, 06:00 AM
Yes, he isn't getting out. He will be institutionalised.

Wow. It's actually worse to be declared insane. :speakles: Usually insanity is pleaded as a mitigating factor to reduce sentence but in this case it seems like he would be in a better position if he were to be declared sane.

I just find it so disturbing how he's shown little to no remorse for his actions and that he seems to genuinely believe in whatever warped "ideology" that drove him to do this. People like him are the truly dangerous criminals.

Arkulari
04-17-2012, 06:58 AM
To me a criminal is someone who steals a car or hit other people.

Breivik is a psycho, the ideology was just an excuse to do what he wanted to do, usually when people are led to commit crimes in the name of something, it is after an exhaustive brainwashing in a group, this guy is a loner.

I don't think he's mentally sane because a mass murder can never be but I also don't feel like he is as crazy as his defense wants to show him to be.

Sunset of Age
04-17-2012, 08:33 AM
Wow. It's actually worse to be declared insane. :speakles: Usually insanity is pleaded as a mitigating factor to reduce sentence but in this case it seems like he would be in a better position if he were to be declared sane.

I just find it so disturbing how he's shown little to no remorse for his actions and that he seems to genuinely believe in whatever warped "ideology" that drove him to do this. People like him are the truly dangerous criminals.

I don't know all too much about criminal legislation in Norway, but on the whole the Scandinavian countries have a system quite like ours in The Netherlands.
Over here, getting locked up in a penal mental institution is considered the most severe penalty - the main reason for that is that the criminal will never know when or whether at all he'll ever be set free, as it's up to the judges who will evaluate the case every two years - and they don't easily dismiss a criminal as being 'cured' at all. So a lot of criminals (and their lawyers of course) try to avoid that as much as possible.
Quite often, the measure will be for the rest of the criminal's life - in such cases where the criminal is deemed 'incurable', which may well happen with serial killers/rapists, child abusers and the like - there are even special 'long stay' insitutions for those over here.

I understand that Norway does not have the 'normal' life sentence (i.e. in a 'normal' prison) which we do have (and in contrary to popular beliefs over here, life sentence is indeed for the entire rest of a criminal's life!).
As such I really hope the guy will get diagnosed as an utter nutter psycho. His lack of showing any remorse, or even any normal feelings for the victims at all, certainly points in that direction.
It may well be the only way to ensure the creep will never ever be able to cross the streets again. :o

Topspindoctor
04-17-2012, 09:00 AM
Revenge-based justice doesn't work because it creates a never-ending cycle of revenge. So you execute the murderer and his son is like "Hey, that was my Dad. He took me fishing and read me books and told me he loved me. He was a great Dad." Kid doesn't care about what you say Dad did; he doesn't believe Daddy did it; or if he did it then it wasn't his fault -- government set him up, or those pills the doctors gave him made him crazy (fits with the conspiracy theories such a kid will develop to rationalize his criminal dad's actions: aren't those doctors in cahoots with the State, anyways, trying to control us all?). All the kid knows is that someone killed the dad he loved, and when he grows up he's going to kill those people, or if they're not around, then he'll get their kids. And so it keeps going.

That's your reasoning why a mass murderer should be protected by the law? Really? You seem to be missing the point. I am talking about removing absolutely irredeemable element from our system via official government sanctions, not vigilante justice and you're worried about about potential of his family to strike back at the "offenders"(who would those be,btw faceless government officials?)? I know that if my father took up an assault rifle and gunned down a crowd in a shopping mall, then yes, he would deserve death. Yes, it would suck for me, but it would be fair and I wouldn't do the same in order to get "revenge" . If a murderer is executed and his kid takes up a gun in his name, that only confirms that the whole family was rotten and not the ineffectiveness of the system which actually makes people accountable for their crimes.

Look at those folks in Israel/the West Bank. On and on it goes for 60 years. Every suicide bomber thinks his bomb belt is gonna be special, never mind the dozens who did the same thing before him and accomplished nothing. Gotta get "them" back for some IDF assault on a daycare or something. It never ends.

The problem with revenge-based "justice" is no one ever says "yeah, you know what? I deserved that punishment. All good, bro. We're even now." No one thinks they deserved it, and no one wants to be even; they wanna be one up.

Completely different as the Israel/Palestine war has nothing to do with revenge or justice system. It's a battle for territory, which is why the war isn't over yet, nor it will ever be until one side is completely obliterated.

Topspindoctor
04-17-2012, 09:03 AM
T-Doc... mate... you're f*cked. Good god someone give him a cuddle..

Ajde :D

Yes, wanting someone who murdered over 70 people actually be punished properly and not being fattened up in a cozy prison cell obviously makes me fucked up. What's really fucked up is that people like that are still alive and we're having these debates on how to best coddle them in case their feelings get hurt.:stupid:

tripwires
04-17-2012, 09:46 AM
I don't know all too much about criminal legislation in Norway, but on the whole the Scandinavian countries have a system quite like ours in The Netherlands.
Over here, getting locked up in a penal mental institution is considered the most severe penalty - the main reason for that is that the criminal will never know when or whether at all he'll ever be set free, as it's up to the judges who will evaluate the case every two years - and they don't easily dismiss a criminal as being 'cured' at all. So a lot of criminals (and their lawyers of course) try to avoid that as much as possible.
Quite often, the measure will be for the rest of the criminal's life - in such cases where the criminal is deemed 'incurable', which may well happen with serial killers/rapists, child abusers and the like - there are even special 'long stay' insitutions for those over here.

I understand that Norway does not have the 'normal' life sentence (i.e. in a 'normal' prison) which we do have (and in contrary to popular beliefs over here, life sentence is indeed for the entire rest of a criminal's life!).
As such I really hope the guy will get diagnosed as an utter nutter psycho. His lack of showing any remorse, or even any normal feelings for the victims at all, certainly points in that direction.
It may well be the only way to ensure the creep will never ever be able to cross the streets again. :o

Ah I see. That's very interesting to me actually; it's quite different in Singapore. But then again we have the mandatory death penalty here for murder so it's definitely in the best interest of the accused to be deemed insane to avoid the gallows. I don't know how the mental asylum route works here though.

Actually I was wrong in my original post. Insanity isn't a mitigating factor; it's a complete defence to murder. Essentially and in its pure form if an accused succeeds in pleading insanity (after satisfying a few requirements) he can get away with the crime. :speakles:

Action Jackson
04-17-2012, 09:48 AM
I understand that Norway does not have the 'normal' life sentence (i.e. in a 'normal' prison) which we do have (and in contrary to popular beliefs over here, life sentence is indeed for the entire rest of a criminal's life!).


Is it hard to read back when I explained what they can do in his case?

simplet
04-17-2012, 10:16 AM
Completely retribution-based justice is a preposterous idea, you don't even have to reach very far to see why. Your state will have to pay people to slowly torture criminals, think about that for a minute. Your state will have to pay people to **** sexual offenders, try to imagine how stupid that would be.

Just contemplating the idea for even a second you can see the ridiculous effects such a thing would have on the image of the state, the moral standing and the legitimity of the justice system, the glorification of violence inside the exact mecanism that is supposed to curb violence and promote a civilized society.

It's just the dumbest idea in the universe, and I haven't even mentionned the possibility of error yet.

Time Violation
04-17-2012, 12:36 PM
I just find it so disturbing how he's shown little to no remorse for his actions and that he seems to genuinely believe in whatever warped "ideology" that drove him to do this. People like him are the truly dangerous criminals.

Well, if he had any remorse, he wouldn't have done it in the first place. He planned it for years, it wasn't exactly a "spur of the moment" thing.

Li Ching Yuen
04-17-2012, 12:45 PM
Such a shame that euthanasia and capital punishment are not mandatory in every single state on Earth.

Would make things that much easier.

kinski76
04-18-2012, 08:15 PM
Three days into the trial, and I am being reminded of why I take an absolutist position in regards to censorship. One part of the media provides you with downright misinformation, and most of the remaining ones are heavily opinionated, chock full of bias in one direction or another. Mass media are hardly reliable providers of information in the first place, and in a matter of general national interest such as this one, they're even less neutral and objective than usual. Norwegian reporters, as much as they'd like to present themselves differently, are as deeply emotionally invested in the outcome of this case as the reading/viewing population. International news reports aren't terribly helpful either, since they leave me with the feeling some things are lost in translation. At least written transcripts (http://nrk.no/227/) from the proceedings are available. While some things are probably omitted from those as well, it's the best option for those of us who prefer first-hand information to "critical commentary", as well-intentioned, eloquent and thought-provoking the latter may be.
/rant

Jimnik
04-20-2012, 04:35 PM
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alfonsojose
04-21-2012, 08:51 PM
I haven't heard anything about his past, his backgrounds, etc. I can't believe that he's the only person in Norway who has such an anger and fear inside. Even if he acted alone, some individuals should have nurtered his ideas.

Topspindoctor
04-22-2012, 03:36 AM
Disgusting. They made this mass murderer into a celebrity. Even here in Australia. Just looking at his well-fed face and arrogant demeanor makes me puke. Completely rotten world where we debate whether such sick individuals deserve basic humans rights or fair trial. I would have him drawn and quartered. Publically. To send a message to others who are entertaining an idea of similar crimes. I am literally shaking in disgust whenever this guy is shown on TV.

Everko
04-22-2012, 02:24 PM
Disgusting. They made this mass murderer into a celebrity. Even here in Australia. Just looking at his well-fed face and arrogant demeanor makes me puke. Completely rotten world where we debate whether such sick individuals deserve basic humans rights or fair trial. I would have him drawn and quartered. Publically. To send a message to others who are entertaining an idea of similar crimes. I am literally shaking in disgust whenever this guy is shown on TV.

Yes I agree. They make people think he is an interesting and deep thinker, someone to study about. Really he is just a killer.

Sunset of Age
04-24-2012, 12:22 AM
Disgusting. They made this mass murderer into a celebrity. Even here in Australia. Just looking at his well-fed face and arrogant demeanor makes me puke. Completely rotten world where we debate whether such sick individuals deserve basic humans rights or fair trial. I would have him drawn and quartered. Publically. To send a message to others who are entertaining an idea of similar crimes. I am literally shaking in disgust whenever this guy is shown on TV.

I can only hope you are trolling. :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

It's exactly the principles of considering a FAIR TRIAL to be mandatory and as such applicable to whatever bad a crime to be under judgement to a decent court of justice that divides a civilised country from a banana republic.

How about moving on to North Korea or Burkina Faso, just to name two of the (too many) possibilities? I guess you'd rather like it over there - unless you might end up being one of the millions of nameless people getting put behind bars over there because of those failed states not having any FAIR TRIAL whatsoever. :wavey:

Seriously. :o

Topspindoctor
04-24-2012, 12:36 AM
I can only hope you are trolling. :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

It's exactly the principles of considering a FAIR TRIAL to be mandatory and as such applicable to whatever bad a crime to be under judgement to a decent court of justice that divides a civilised country from a banana republic.

How about moving on to North Korea or Burkina Faso, just to name two of the (too many) possibilities? I guess you'd rather like it over there - unless you might end up being one of the millions of nameless people getting put behind bars over there because of those failed states not having any FAIR TRIAL whatsoever. :wavey:

Seriously. :o

I am not trolling in the least. Topics and issues like these are no place for trolling and I am quite passionate about my reasoning in regards to crime and punishment.

Someone who takes an assault rifle into his hands and massacres dozens of helpless people does not DESERVE a fair trial. He forfeited his human rights the moment he pressed the trigger. I am more disgusted at people thinking this murderer is a human being than at the whole massacre.

To me he's a thing, a pile of meat who deserved to be tortured, vivisected, and destroyed for what he did. I am sure many people feel the same way.

Way to bring up communist states into this. NK puts people behind bars for political insurrection just like communists did during Cold War. I am talking about punishing most revolting criminals that are coddled in this sick society. If someone gunned down your entire family, I bet you wouldn't make these holier-than-thou posts.

tripwires
04-24-2012, 01:22 AM
I am not trolling in the least. Topics and issues like these are no place for trolling and I am quite passionate about my reasoning in regards to crime and punishment.

Someone who takes an assault rifle into his hands and massacres dozens of helpless people does not DESERVE a fair trial. He forfeited his human rights the moment he pressed the trigger. I am more disgusted at people thinking this murderer is a human being than at the whole massacre.

To me he's a thing, a pile of meat who deserved to be tortured, vivisected, and destroyed for what he did. I am sure many people feel the same way.

Way to bring up communist states into this. NK puts people behind bars for political insurrection just like communists did during Cold War. I am talking about punishing most revolting criminals that are coddled in this sick society. If someone gunned down your entire family, I bet you wouldn't make these holier-than-thou posts.

You cannot be serious.

Topspindoctor
04-24-2012, 01:48 AM
You cannot be serious.

I am 1000% serious. Do not allow my ridiculous posts in general discussion cloud your judgement. Nothing elicits more emotion and anger out of me than this whole incident. The fact that we're even debating whether this sicko deserves any rights just screams wrong to me. He should die, in horrific pain for what he did and here were are debating on the length of his prison sentence.

You may declare me a sicko, a fanatic or a madman, but I question the sanity of those who think this pyscho deserves a fair trial or punishment anything less than death.

tripwires
04-24-2012, 02:04 AM
I am 1000% serious. Do not allow my ridiculous posts in general discussion cloud your judgement. Nothing elicits more emotion and anger out of me than this whole incident. The fact that we're even debating whether this sicko deserves any rights just screams wrong to me. He should die, in horrific pain for what he did and here were are debating on the length of his prison sentence.

You may declare me a sicko, a fanatic or a madman, but I question the sanity of those who think this pyscho deserves a fair trial or punishment anything less than death.

No, I meant the part of your post that I bolded. I'm already familiar with how you feel about this whackjob so that part isn't surprising. I'm surprised that you're "more disgusted at people thinking this murderer is a human being than at the whole massacre."

On an unrelated note I'm amused by your admittance that your GM posts are ridiculous. :hug:

Action Jackson
04-24-2012, 02:20 AM
So the rule of the law of a whole country should change just for this one particular horrific case? Why are you following this then? They aren't going to execute him much to your disappointment. Keep up with the simplistic solutions, death penalty doesn't work.

Definite argument for not giving him a stage to air his views, but can see why it happened.

Underspin apprentice I'm Norwegian and most Norwegians aren't pro death penalty even in this particular case. No, it's not holier than thou.

alfonsojose
04-26-2012, 03:42 AM
So the rule of the law of a whole country should change just for this one particular horrific case? Why are you following this then? They aren't going to execute him much to your disappointment. Keep up with the simplistic solutions, death penalty doesn't work.

Definite argument for not giving him a stage to air his views, but can see why it happened.

Underspin apprentice I'm Norwegian and most Norwegians aren't pro death penalty even in this particular case. No, it's not holier than thou.

Are u guys sure that this guy acted alone. What about dad, mom, friends (if he has :help: ) i haven't seen any stories of them?

Action Jackson
08-24-2012, 08:46 AM
Breivik was declared sane and got the 21 year maximum sentence. Before some people overreact and jump to silly conculsions.

In special circumstances the 21 year sentence can be extended periodically if that particular person is a danger to society which Breivik definitely is. Very unlikely he gets out.

tripwires
08-24-2012, 08:55 AM
21 years? That's just a slap on the wrist. This guy deserves to be hanged.

scoobs
08-24-2012, 08:59 AM
Breivik was declared sane and got the 21 year maximum sentence. Before some people overreact and jump to silly conculsions.

In special circumstances the 21 year sentence can be extended periodically if that particular person is a danger to society which Breivik definitely is. Very unlikely he gets out.

The reaction of Norway to this whole horror has been inspirational.

And while many around the world will react with incomprehension, seeing this as a soft sentence

a) He probably won't ever get out, and not for a very long time if he does.

b) I doubt Norwegians will be running around demanding his blood. Based on past evidence, they will see this as their justice system doing its job.

Action Jackson
08-24-2012, 09:18 AM
The reaction of Norway to this whole horror has been inspirational.

And while many around the world will react with incomprehension, seeing this as a soft sentence

a) He probably won't ever get out, and not for a very long time if he does.

b) I doubt Norwegians will be running around demanding his blood. Based on past evidence, they will see this as their justice system doing its job.

Well there was saturation coverage initially but it got to a point where it could be turned off. For the most part reactions haven't been that bad within the community.

Biggest chore is explaining how his sentence can be extended. In theory there is a parole period of 10 years, but that won't get approved. They have followed the rule of law that is specific for the country.

tripwires
08-24-2012, 01:07 PM
Good sentence and outcome.

Hope he repents in prison.

The Prince
08-24-2012, 01:18 PM
This is a victory. An adequate verdict.

Lopez
08-24-2012, 02:15 PM
Good sentence and outcome.

Hope he repents in prison.

Unlikely IMO. The guy's been smirking and smiling during this whole thing and was pleased that he wasn't declared insane, so that his actions wouldn't be viewed as "crazy".

EliSter
08-24-2012, 02:17 PM
21 year only for this? Shamefull. Should be life sentence or death one.

Action Jackson
08-24-2012, 02:26 PM
21 year only for this? Shamefull. Should be life sentence or death one.

Do you have a comprehension problem? I posted what happens with the sentencing after 21 years just a few posts below. If you actually want to know what the conditions are after 21 years then it will be in your interest to do so.

abraxas21
08-24-2012, 02:33 PM
should have been declared insane imo

sends a bad sign that the society thinks that a man who does something as fucked up as he did can be a sane person.

EliSter
08-24-2012, 02:34 PM
Do you have a comprehension problem? I posted what happens with the sentencing after 21 years just a few posts below. If you actually want to know what the conditions are after 21 years then it will be in your interest to do so.

I red it well, and do not have comprehension problem. He will be out before those 21 year expire. You seem to have no clue about malversation and coruption. He wanted this 21 years and he is happy with it. There are some plans that person to get out of there before 21 years go down. Justice cant be found in this times. Killing so many ppl and getting away to live even more with a chance one day to come out of a prison is shamefull in my book. If u think opposite good for you.

Jimnik
08-24-2012, 02:35 PM
Well, if the families of the victims feel justice is done, fair enough. Personally I don't know how I'd cope watching this butcher smile on TV. He really has no regrets or remorse.

Action Jackson
08-24-2012, 02:39 PM
I red it well, and do not have comprehension problem. He will be out before those 21 year expire. You seem to have no clue about malversation and coruption. He wanted this 21 years and he is happy with it. There are some plans that person to get out of there before 21 years go down. Justice cant be found in this times. Killing so many ppl and getting away to live even more with a chance one day to come out of a prison is shamefull in my book. If u think opposite good for you.

No you didn't read it at all, if so then you'd actually understand. You do know I'm Norwegian. I don't comment on Serbian law and it's different rules, very simple reason I have no clue about it. What corruption are you talking about. It wasn't a show trial everything but the witness statements were accessible to the public.

Just so you get it. In theory he has a chance of parole in 10 years and you can go to the moon as well, so this is how likely this happens. Next of all once that is done. 21 years once this is complete, they will review the case and yes Breivik has shown no remorse at all laughing at the verdict. They can keep extending the sentence you know 21+ years and will do since he is a danger to society.

Orka_n
08-24-2012, 04:28 PM
should have been declared insane imo

sends a bad sign that the society thinks that a man who does something as fucked up as he did can be a sane person.You are using your own definition of "sane". The Norwegians certainly do not consider him to be "normal", but he might have gotten another kind of punishment if he had been labeled "criminally insane". This is better.

Fujee
08-24-2012, 05:54 PM
The death penalty is abhorrent. Totally against it.

Kill him and he becomes a maryr to all the other maniacs.

Let him sit with his twisted guilt in solitary confinement.

abraxas21
08-24-2012, 07:04 PM
"He has killed 77 people, most of them youth, who were shot without mercy, face to face. The cruelty is unparalleled in Norwegian history," Judge Arne Lyng said. "This means that the defendant even after serving 21 years in prison would be a very dangerous man."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Breivik-survivors-welcome-Norway-prison-term-3811809.php#ixzz24UYbDsFF

funny how that judge already has his mind set that the man should be kept in jail after his sentence. shouldn't that have to be decided after completing the sentence? :rolleyes:

abraxas21
08-24-2012, 07:07 PM
You are using your own definition of "sane". The Norwegians certainly do not consider him to be "normal", but he might have gotten another kind of punishment if he had been labeled "criminally insane". This is better.

i don't care about the punishment myself. i care more about the image it gives to other nutcases like him.

fact this, this trial went exactly as brevik wanted it to be. he got his chance to speak up and then be declared sane, as he wanted as well. if he had been declared insane, his cause would be more widely perceived a crazy. right now there's a slim chance that far right groups will make a hero out of him in the future, as he wanted as well.

take this guy for example:


"It was obviously wrong what he did, but there was logic to all of it," said Stephen Lennon, the 29-year-old leader of the English Defense League, an anti-Muslim group. "By saying that he was sane, it gives a certain credibility to what he had been saying. And that is, that Islam is a threat to Europe and to the world."

Jimnik
08-24-2012, 10:45 PM
yamVsQyUnWU

Topspindoctor
08-25-2012, 01:23 AM
21 years? That's just a slap on the wrist. This guy deserves to be hanged.

Hanged? No, that's far too kind. In middle ages, skilled torturers could make their victim last for weeks, I think their skills would be appreciated in this particular case - of course in liberal, Euro prison the guy will probably die from overeating :o

Action Jackson
08-25-2012, 01:56 AM
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Breivik-survivors-welcome-Norway-prison-term-3811809.php#ixzz24UYbDsFF

funny how that judge already has his mind set that the man should be kept in jail after his sentence. shouldn't that have to be decided after completing the sentence? :rolleyes:

You are just whining for the sake of whining. If he was declared insane then there was no responsibility for the crimes which were clearly planned out over an extended period of time. The victims of the families are happy he was declared sane.

Pretty obvious that this guy is going to be a menace to society without any chances of reformation. Since there is no death penalty nor should be, then he isn't getting out.

MaxPower
08-28-2012, 04:23 PM
It's gonna be interesting to see what we do in Sweden with the so called "Laser man" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ausonius who was sentenced to life but has already served 18 years now. Also a serial killer with some ideological issues but is according to himself a very changed man now. I wouldn't be surprised if they try to keep him in for life anyway.

In 2010 he attempted to get his life sentece changed to a fixed term sentence but was rejected. He will no doubt try that again every chance he gets.

In Norways case one could wonder why they don't have an actual "life-sentence"

In Sweden life sentence "usually" means 12-20 years in prison but for very severe criminals we got the option to hold them. Until death.


In Breiviks case he will no doubt serve the full 21 years but after that what will they do? invent some stuff so they can add more years to the sentence? That's a bit backwards. Time for Norway to learn from their neighboor again.

Jimnik
08-28-2012, 11:22 PM
What I don't understand is why he's not serving a life sentence for each of his victims. 77 people x 21 years (10 years minimum) should mean he never gets released.

Action Jackson
08-29-2012, 04:09 AM
It's gonna be interesting to see what we do in Sweden with the so called "Laser man" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ausonius who was sentenced to life but has already served 18 years now. Also a serial killer with some ideological issues but is according to himself a very changed man now. I wouldn't be surprised if they try to keep him in for life anyway.

In 2010 he attempted to get his life sentece changed to a fixed term sentence but was rejected. He will no doubt try that again every chance he gets.

In Norways case one could wonder why they don't have an actual "life-sentence"

In Sweden life sentence "usually" means 12-20 years in prison but for very severe criminals we got the option to hold them. Until death.


In Breiviks case he will no doubt serve the full 21 years but after that what will they do? invent some stuff so they can add more years to the sentence? That's a bit backwards. Time for Norway to learn from their neighboor again.

Learn from Sweden, yes come over to Norway to work and pay lower Swedish taxes, that's the way Norway has to learn. Yes, can also send people back to countries where they can be tortured. Though Norway did learn the state sterilisation of the invalid, Romany, orphans and the poor in the 30s to the early 70s.

Invent stuff, what part of he is a danger and a menace to society do you not understand? How is something so simple to understand yet so difficult.


What I don't understand is why he's not serving a life sentence for each of his victims. 77 people x 21 years (10 years minimum) should mean he never gets released.

Reading comprehension I didn't think was a weakness of yours.

buddyholly
08-29-2012, 12:42 PM
Reading comprehension I didn't think was a weakness of yours.

Jimnik was referring to the difference between consecutive and concurrent sentences. What part of that did you not understand?