who's the bigger 'mental slave' to rafa, federer or murray? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

who's the bigger 'mental slave' to rafa, federer or murray?

anticaria
06-03-2011, 05:46 PM
of the top 4, i used to think no one could be a bigger mental midget against a healthy rafa than roger himself, yet i'm thinking murray may be gaining on roger in the 'how can i best serve master rafa' contest..

roger trails rafa 8:16..

andy trails rafa 4:11..

at the majors, andy trails rafa 2:4 and roger trails rafa 2:6..

and while nole trails rafa by a shocking 0:5 at the majors, the serbian has beaten rafa nearly as many times as both roger and andy combined for an 11:16 lifetime h2h..

SheepleBuster
06-03-2011, 05:50 PM
verdasco?

abraxas21
06-03-2011, 05:51 PM
between federer and murray? federer easily

murray hasn't actually done badly against nadal given his ranking and level of play in the matches they've played.

philosophicalarf
06-03-2011, 05:54 PM
Murray's h2h with Nadal isn't terrible helpful - he lost his first 5 before he was at a level to actually challenge him. For example, when they played at Wimbledon 08, Murray was just outside the top10.

After that, it's 5-6. That's made up of 4-1 on hard, 1-1 indoors, 0-2 grass, 0-3 clay.

n3gative
06-03-2011, 06:20 PM
fed

Ibracadabra
06-03-2011, 06:40 PM
Spain

dombrfc
06-03-2011, 07:23 PM
Spain

+1

GSMnadal
06-03-2011, 07:30 PM
They aren't mental slaves, Rafa is just a better player.

Bleeth
06-03-2011, 07:36 PM
They aren't mental slaves, Rafa is just a better player.

:superlol: Always good to read a good joke

I think Muzzito handles Rafa quite decent, Freuderer on the other hand is on vacation when he plays Nadull.

Mistaflava
06-03-2011, 08:17 PM
who is the freak starting these threads?

anticaria
06-03-2011, 08:25 PM
They aren't mental slaves, Rafa is just a better player.

do you honestly think a healthy rafa's not in both roger's and andy's heads, especially on clay? :eek:

ApproachShot
06-03-2011, 08:49 PM
I'm not sure 'slave' is the right term to use, but Federer more so than Murray.

MaxPower
06-03-2011, 08:49 PM
Spain

This is the right answer to the question

anticaria
06-03-2011, 08:56 PM
between federer and murray? federer easily

murray hasn't actually done badly against nadal given his ranking and level of play in the matches they've played.



ranking and level of play aside, the guy's number 4 in the world.. the thing about andy is that i just don't see him ever beating even a tired, injured rafa on clay at this point..

GSMnadal
06-03-2011, 08:58 PM
do you honestly think a healthy rafa's not in both roger's and andy's heads, especially on clay? :eek:

Sure he's in their heads. Maybe I should've been more specific. I meant he isn't beating them just because he's in their heads, he's beating them because he's the better player.

oranges
06-03-2011, 09:15 PM
do you honestly think a healthy rafa's not in both roger's and andy's heads, especially on clay? :eek:

I honestly think Muzza would give a kidney to play Nadal in a HC slam final, not Djokovic and especially not Federer. I also believe Nadal feels a bit woozy seeing him in his half in HC slams, but feel free to be a tard clown.

ballbasher101
06-03-2011, 09:42 PM
fed

The Great man freezes against Nadal always. It beggars belief.

anticaria
06-03-2011, 09:48 PM
I honestly think Muzza would give a kidney to play Nadal in a HC slam final, not Djokovic and especially not Federer. I also believe Nadal feels a bit woozy seeing him in his half in HC slams, but feel free to be a tard clown.


andy had better keep both his kidneys and trade them in for a man-sized pair of cojones.. he'll need them if he ever hopes to beat rafa on clay.. :wavey:

Clay Death
06-03-2011, 09:50 PM
another worthless thread.


mods:

please drag this thread outside and have a couple of spotted hyenas shit on it repeatedly for 3 days.

green25814
06-03-2011, 09:54 PM
Dumb fucking thread.

anticaria
06-03-2011, 11:09 PM
Sure he's in their heads. Maybe I should've been more specific. I meant he isn't beating them just because he's in their heads, he's beating them because he's the better player.



obviously rafa's victories over either roger or andy were due to the fact that he was the better player on those occasions.. that much is obvious.. what i'm saying is that when you have a supernaturally talented all-surface player, such as the swiss slam goat, losing 11 of 13 meetings to anyone on any particular surface, the predominant battle being waged is one of mental fortitude more than anything else..

'better player' embodies many criteria: mental, physical, tactical, etc.. and yet the principal hurdle separating rafa and roger, especially on clay, is the 'mental ownership' the spaniard holds over the swiss..

we shall see on sunday.. if roger loses his 5th r garros meeting with rafa (4th in a final) and is thus unable to stop the bleeding against this particular player at r garros, as i suspect he is, the above will still hold true, as i suspect it still does..

GSMnadal
06-03-2011, 11:19 PM
obviously rafa's victories over either roger or andy were due to the fact that he was the better player on those occasions.. that much is obvious.. what i'm saying is that when you have a supernaturally talented all-surface player, such as the swiss slam goat, losing 11 of 13 meetings to anyone on any particular surface, the predominant battle being waged is one of mental fortitude more than anything else..

'better player' embodies many criteria: mental, physical, tactical, etc.. and yet the principal hurdle separating rafa and roger, especially on clay, is the 'mental ownership' the spaniard holds over the swiss..

we shall see on sunday.. if roger loses his 5th r garros meeting with rafa (4th in a final) and is thus unable to stop the bleeding against this particular player at r garros, as i suspect he is, the above will still hold true, as i suspect it still does..

I think that the 11/13 on clay losses from Roger have nothing to do with the mental hold that Rafa has on him. The losses at Wimbledon and AO, those are the clear signals.

Rafa is the clay GOAT, there's no denying it. When you put the worlds best decathlete against the worlds best sprinter, who would you pick to win the 100 meter dash? That's right. As good as an all surface player Roger is, the all rounder will always (11/13 in this case) lose to a specialist.

When the clay courter beats him on his own turf, there we can speak about a mental ownage.

anticaria
06-04-2011, 04:42 AM
I think that the 11/13 on clay losses from Roger have nothing to do with the mental hold that Rafa has on him. The losses at Wimbledon and AO, those are the clear signals.

Rafa is the clay GOAT, there's no denying it. When you put the worlds best decathlete against the worlds best sprinter, who would you pick to win the 100 meter dash? That's right. As good as an all surface player Roger is, the all rounder will always (11/13 in this case) lose to a specialist.

When the clay courter beats him on his own turf, there we can speak about a mental ownage.


i still think that simply saying rafa's the clay goat and the better claycourt specialist is too simplistic a way to look at it.. roger isn't the claycourt player sampras was.. far from it, the swiss is perhaps the greatest all-surface player who ever lived as well as the second-best claycourt player alive today..

with that in mind, there's no excuse for roger losing to anyone else regardless of surface to the ridiculously lopsided degree which the swiss has lost to on clay to rafa, clay goat or not..

imho, the primary explanation for their claycourt h2h lopsidedness lies elsewhere.. i.e., the primary obstacle separating rafa from roger on any surface is the mental fortitude rafa enjoys when he plays the swiss, especially on clay.. the kind of mental hold that says: 'no matter how well you play against me today, i'll always be in control and we both know it'.. and this i believe goes back to the '06 rome final, a match rafa had no business winning and a match which forever sealed roger's fate against his younger nemesis.. had roger somehow found a way to prevail in that match, the entire history of their rivalry might have very well been a heck of a lot more competitive, on clay or elsewhere..

unfortunately for roger, mental/confidence gains from beating other players (like say from beating nole today) are largely futile against the spaniard on clay, for rafa is even better against everyone else not named federer on that surface, so that no win could ever prepare the swiss for what he knows surely awaits him in sunday's final (especially given rafa's current 11:0 record after he's reached the semis at r garros).. i.e., while beating nole and breaching the serbian's wall of confidence was impressive, ultimately, at r garros or in best-of-five matches, nole is no rafa and roger knows this all too well..

oranges
06-04-2011, 04:45 AM
andy had better keep both his kidneys and trade them in for a man-sized pair of cojones.. he'll need them if he ever hopes to beat rafa on clay.. :wavey:

I'm sure this helps you forget he's yet to beat to Murray in a HC slam. No, you're not pathetic at all.

MIMIC
06-04-2011, 04:50 AM
Federer.

Miami SF :help:

NadalPhan
06-04-2011, 04:58 AM
Sure he's in their heads. Maybe I should've been more specific. I meant he isn't beating them just because he's in their heads, he's beating them because he's the better player.

Word!

Besides, he wouldn't be in their head if he wasn't the better player after all.

tests
06-04-2011, 05:11 AM
nadal is not in murrays head. Nadal is EXPECTED to beat murray on clay... and murray is just evolving on grass. The court murray should own nadal in.... he owns nadal in.

Nadal is clearly in feds head. There have been atleast 5 matches that i can recall where fed should have won, but ended up losing due to nadal being in feds head.

Hell, i wouldn't trust fed even if he had a 2 set to love lead against nadal on any surface...

anticaria
06-04-2011, 05:32 AM
Word!

Besides, he wouldn't be in their head if he wasn't the better player after all.


that's just it.. part of being the 'better player' is the mental strength component which is what ultimately separates rafa from roger.. i.e., rafa has the edge over roger in the mental fortitude/confidence/strength/focus/relentlessness dept. and that is ultimately why he's in roger's head, leading their h2h rivalry by such a large margin, and generally frustrating roger to no end.. it isn't just because rafa's clay goat.. that explanation is too simplistic imho..

anticaria
06-04-2011, 06:10 AM
nadal is not in murrays head. Nadal is EXPECTED to beat murray on clay...


rafa's expected to beat verdasco too though i assure you he's in nando's head as well..

shelley76
06-04-2011, 06:20 AM
I'm sure this helps you forget he's yet to beat to Murray in a HC slam. No, you're not pathetic at all.

Pretty sure Rafa beat Murray in the fourth round of AO 2007. In 5 sets.

oranges
06-04-2011, 06:30 AM
Pretty sure Rafa beat Murray in the fourth round of AO 2007. In 5 sets.

Oh, how could I forget, what was Muzza top 20 at best back then. It must be consoling for those two spankings later.

acionescu
06-04-2011, 08:06 AM
Neither one

abraxas21
06-04-2011, 08:12 AM
Sure he's in their heads. Maybe I should've been more specific. I meant he isn't beating them just because he's in their heads, he's beating them because he's the better player.

he will

in 2 or 3 years tops nadal will be a shadow if his former self and murray will be around stronger than ever. at that point nadal will be lucky to be within the top 10

GSMnadal
06-04-2011, 12:23 PM
i still think that simply saying rafa's the clay goat and the better claycourt specialist is too simplistic a way to look at it.. roger isn't the claycourt player sampras was.. far from it, the swiss is perhaps the greatest all-surface player who ever lived as well as the second-best claycourt player alive today..

with that in mind, there's no excuse for roger losing to anyone else regardless of surface to the ridiculously lopsided degree which the swiss has lost to on clay to rafa, clay goat or not..

imho, the primary explanation for their claycourt h2h lopsidedness lies elsewhere.. i.e., the primary obstacle separating rafa from roger on any surface is the mental fortitude rafa enjoys when he plays the swiss, especially on clay.. the kind of mental hold that says: 'no matter how well you play against me today, i'll always be in control and we both know it'.. and this i believe goes back to the '06 rome final, a match rafa had no business winning and a match which forever sealed roger's fate against his younger nemesis.. had roger somehow found a way to prevail in that match, the entire history of their rivalry might have very well been a heck of a lot more competitive, on clay or elsewhere..

unfortunately for roger, mental/confidence gains from beating other players (like say from beating nole today) are largely futile against the spaniard on clay, for rafa is even better against everyone else not named federer on that surface, so that no win could ever prepare the swiss for what he knows surely awaits him in sunday's final (especially given rafa's current 11:0 record after he's reached the semis at r garros).. i.e., while beating nole and breaching the serbian's wall of confidence was impressive, ultimately, at r garros or in best-of-five matches, nole is no rafa and roger knows this all too well..

I really think you're underrating Rafa's clay greatness here, maybe after they both retire you'll be able to appreciate and acknowlege it. But one thing you're also forgetting, is that Nadal is a bad match up for Roger.

Rafa's game is just taylor made to take Roger out. The lefty topspin forehand to Fed's single handed backhand and slice serve out wide on breakpoint, are all part of Nadal's almost watertight gameplan against Federer. And on clay the first one does extra damage due to the high bounce.

anticaria
06-04-2011, 01:48 PM
I really think you're underrating Rafa's clay greatness here, maybe after they both retire you'll be able to appreciate and acknowlege it. But one thing you're also forgetting, is that Nadal is a bad match up for Roger.

Rafa's game is just taylor made to take Roger out. The lefty topspin forehand to Fed's single handed backhand and slice serve out wide on breakpoint, are all part of Nadal's almost watertight gameplan against Federer. And on clay the first one does extra damage due to the high bounce.


i assure you i'm not underrating/underestimating rafa's claycourt 'greatness'.. i have already stated he's likely the best/greatest claycourt player who ever lived.. of that there is no doubt.. and if he ties borg's record on sunday, that much will be clear..

what i am saying though is that, as good as rafa is tactically and physically on clay and as much as that surface tends to expose roger's tactical vulnerabilities vis a vis rafa, the fact is that roger is really not that far behind.. i.e., the swiss is no mere pete sampras on clay, obviously.. so that ultimately what 'truly' separates rafa and roger on clay, or any other surface for that matter, is not just a tactical match-up or the fact that rafa's such an unreal tactician on clay, but primarily rafa's mental endurance vis a vis the swiss.. point being that the mentality is at the core the thing that puts rafa above roger and has given him near-automatic ownership over him on clay.. but again, not just because rafa's tactical clay 'goat,' but because roger ultimately lacks the mental commitment, conviction and confidence in his own game to adapt/adjust it in order to overcome the tactical onslaught rafa unleashes on him..

in all likelihood, rafa would still be leading their h2h on clay even if the swiss had managed to win the '06 rome final.. of that i'm pretty certain.. however, if roger's psyche had not become so wounded in that encounter, their h2h might've been a lot more competitive..

anticaria
06-04-2011, 02:06 PM
btw, another aspect of this that's fascinating (re: roger and andy vis v is rafa) is the approach both guys seem to have used in the press regarding rafa..

roger's never been shy to express a certain condescending attitude towards rafa and claycourt tennis in general when speaking in interviews, showing a complete lack of judgment in my opinion, especially in light of the lopsided nature of his clay rivalry with the spaniard..

meanwhile, andy's showed nothing but high praise for the spaniard at every opportunity, incurring the criticism of some who feel he ought not put rafa on such a lofty pedestal if he ever expects to beat him on clay..

i'm not sure where i fall in that debate, except to say that i'm not so sure roger's ballsy and outspoken attitude has really made that much of a positive difference after all as opposed to andy's with regards to how they have each fared against rafa respectively.. the reason i say this is because the only two times roger's beaten rafa on clay ('07 hamburg and '09 madrid, especially the latter) rafa's 'fatigue' was what ultimately did him in against the swiss.. every other time, against even a reasonably healthy rafa, roger has been largely no match..

MaxPower
06-04-2011, 02:34 PM
btw, another aspect of this that's fascinating (re: roger and andy vis v is rafa) is the approach both guys seem to have used in the press regarding rafa..

roger's never been shy to express a certain condescending attitude towards rafa and claycourt tennis in general when speaking in interviews, showing a complete lack of judgment in my opinion, especially in light of the lopsided nature of his clay rivalry with the spaniard..

meanwhile, andy's showed nothing but high praise for the spaniard at every opportunity, incurring the criticism of some who feel he ought not put rafa on such a lofty pedestal if he ever expects to beat him on clay..


What the point here? That Federer should praise Rafa more and that he would do better vs him?
This is like the worst BS ever. What Roger do outside the court has nothing to do with it.

He will still get high topspin FH on high bouncing surface to weak 1H BH. He will still get 90% of the serves wide out to weak 1H BH. He will still get left handed spaniard CC-ing FH to his BH side in most rallies.

THEN he breaks down mentally. Sure everyone does. If I go play tennis with a kid and serve so hard that he can't return them he will also break down mentally after the first set or so. Then he will say "hey I can't handle that you jackass, do something else or I quit". Federer can't do that. He needs to try with his 1H BH vs the moonball even after he is mentally broken in the match. That is the whole story really. Don't have to wrap it in like Federer should praise Rafa more because he shouldn't. Everyone knows why it looks like it looks in their H2H

chalkdust
06-04-2011, 02:35 PM
Another troll thread. Next.

anticaria
06-04-2011, 03:02 PM
What the point here? That Federer should praise Rafa more and that he would do better vs him?
This is like the worst BS ever. What Roger do outside the court has nothing to do with it.





you totally missed the point.. i never said roger needed to shower nothing but praise on rafa in order to beat him.. that's absurd.. in fact, i pointed out that such an attitude, according to some critics, certainly has not done murray any favors vis a vis beating rafa on clay so why would it help roger?

i simply suggested that displaying a condescending and dismissive attitude towards rafa/claycourt tennis in general, such as roger has shown in the past, is not the way to go either for it only succeeds in making roger look like a sore-losing horse's arse and confirm to rafa that he's deeply inside his swiss rival's psyche.. again, not a good move from roger either..

if anything, i was simply pointing out that regardless of how either roger and andy approach the issue of rafa in the press, it certainly 'seems' to make no difference in the end except that in roger's case, rafa now knows beyond the shadow of a doubt that he's gotten to roger and i'm not sure that's such a good thing to let your opponent in on.. which is why i never quite understood why andy has received such criticism for simply showing the spaniard some respect in the press..

in fact, rafa's always shown nothing but utter respect and high praise for roger in the press and it certainly has never adversely affected his dominance over the swiss..

philosophicalarf
06-04-2011, 03:17 PM
Oh, how could I forget, what was Muzza top 20 at best back then. It must be consoling for those two spankings later.

Good question - Murray was ranked 16 at the time (up from 40ish 6 months earlier)


Quite a change from now, even the best 19yr olds are struggling to break the top100 now.

luie
06-04-2011, 03:52 PM
No one is rafa's mental slave....
Murray was immature n' young when nadull was 5-0 against him...Since then its more even.
Secondly nadull is simply a better clay courter than federer.
Credit to nadull for beating fed in off-clay grand slams but nadull is simply a better "big points" player than fed in general.Because in the 2 5 setters fed/nadull played off clay it came down to "big points".

Sapeod
06-04-2011, 04:14 PM
Neither of them is Nadal's mental slave!! :stupid: How can you say that?? Both are amazing players who are not scared of the moonballer.

luie
06-04-2011, 04:29 PM
Neither of them is Nadal's mental slave!! :stupid: How can you say that?? Both are amazing players who are not scared of the moonballer.
If they were his mental slaves they would try to avoid playing him,,I don't see that happening,,I just think nadull is a superior clay courter.

Sham Kay
06-04-2011, 04:54 PM
Rafatards.

MaxPower
06-04-2011, 04:56 PM
you totally missed the point.. i never said roger needed to shower nothing but praise on rafa in order to beat him.. that's absurd.. in fact, i pointed out that such an attitude, according to some critics, certainly has not done murray any favors vis a vis beating rafa on clay so why would it help roger?

i simply suggested that displaying a condescending and dismissive attitude towards rafa/claycourt tennis in general, such as roger has shown in the past, is not the way to go either for it only succeeds in making roger look like a sore-losing horse's arse and confirm to rafa that he's deeply inside his swiss rival's psyche.. again, not a good move from roger either..

if anything, i was simply pointing out that regardless of how either roger and andy approach the issue of rafa in the press, it certainly 'seems' to make no difference in the end except that in roger's case, rafa now knows beyond the shadow of a doubt that he's gotten to roger and i'm not sure that's such a good thing to let your opponent in on.. which is why i never quite understood why andy has received such criticism for simply showing the spaniard some respect in the press..

in fact, rafa's always shown nothing but utter respect and high praise for roger in the press and it certainly has never adversely affected his dominance over the swiss..

This whole thing is just absurd. There is no mental slavery or Rafa being in someone's mind. All you do is saying "oohhh lookie here they lose to Nadal therefore they are his mental slaves". Doesn't work like that and how do you even know what's inside Roger's head?

Nadal got a good matchup vs them. Federer got a weak backhand. Murray got a pushing/counterpunching strategy that is inferior to Nadals pushing/counterpunching. Bad matchups are common. The entire tour (yes there are players outside of top4 wonder if ppl know that sometimes) are full of pigeons.

Top players work like this: Someone beats them 5 times they think no way this guy beats me 6 times. Then they get beaten 6 times they go to 7 and so on. That is how they must work no matter how horrible the matchup is. Roger isn't avoiding Rafa. He probably welcomes another chance to beat him

Soderling got to 0-12 before he finally beat Roger in his 13th try in a GS QF. But he often fought his heart out vs Roger getting him to TBs and close matches despite Roger being the best player on the tour to use his own power against him. At the same time Soderling has his own pigeons. That is hot the ATP works. matchups, matchups, matchups. Just because there is a pigeon situation among the top3 that doesn't mean there is mental slavery going on.

Go to the pigeon thread. The entire freaking tour is full of mental slaves then. Not true. It's just full of good players, less good players and horrible matchups. I guess Roger Federer must be the biggest mental overlord of all time if there is any truth in your mental slavery theory but then just happens to become a mental slave to Nadal? No Roger is probably the most mentally stable and strong guy that you can find in tennis. But he can't use that to make Nadal play worse. Nadal vs Roger IF Nadal perfects his strategy vs the Federer backhand on clay it is out of Roger's hands. He needs Nadal to throw the match then.

Ask yourself how come Federer has no issues at all playing vs Nadal on low bouncing hardcourt? How come he got issues with Nadal on grass the year they changed it to more high bouncing and slower? I mean if Roger was a mental slave to Nadal how come he took him to school in the World Tour Finals a few months back on indoor hardcourt? Nadal definitely worked his ass off to win that. He has never won the world tour finals

Rakuten
06-04-2011, 05:10 PM
This thread has rendered me impotent. thanks guys. :sobbing:

sco
06-04-2011, 05:18 PM
At least Federer has somewhat of a match-up excuse (one-handed backhand). Murray doesn't.

MaxPower
06-04-2011, 06:23 PM
well i think it's an interesting thread because imo it's a common false opinion that Rafa has some kind of mental domination of Fed. The veteran Fed giving his all in every match those play on clay. Even if it sometimes is like banging your head in a wall.

anticaria
06-05-2011, 01:41 AM
No one is rafa's mental slave....
Murray was immature n' young when nadull was 5-0 against him...Since then its more even.
Secondly nadull is simply a better clay courter than federer.
Credit to nadull for beating fed in off-clay grand slams but nadull is simply a better "big points" player than fed in general.Because in the 2 5 setters fed/nadull played off clay it came down to "big points".


i don't know how to tell you this but being a better 'big point' or 'clutch' player implies that you are the mentally stronger player under duress, i.e., a situation which, over years of facing off against each other, can easily translate into the kind of mental 'ownership' rafa has over the swiss.. and that is precisely the edge that rafa has over roger by virtue of the long duration of their rivalry as well as its lopsided nature .. it isn't just a surface-specific 'tactical' advantage or superiority that rafa enjoys.. that, to me, is oversimplifying the issue.. it is difficult to fathom losing to a player as many times as roger's lost to rafa on clay (including many matches where roger was actually in the lead and still lost) and not developing a certain mental phobia against said player as a result.. textbook case of mental ownership imho..

Topspindoctor
06-05-2011, 01:44 AM
Nadal owns Olderer and Mugza. It's nothing mental.

Mungo
06-05-2011, 01:48 AM
I've said it 100000 times. Nadal is 2 notches above Murray when the match is not played on a hardcourt, which doesn't mean that he can't beat Murray on a hardcourt, of course.

anticaria
06-05-2011, 02:51 AM
This whole thing is just absurd. There is no mental slavery or Rafa being in someone's mind. All you do is saying "oohhh lookie here they lose to Nadal therefore they are his mental slaves". Doesn't work like that and how do you even know what's inside Roger's head?

Nadal got a good matchup vs them. Federer got a weak backhand. Murray got a pushing/counterpunching strategy that is inferior to Nadals pushing/counterpunching. Bad matchups are common. The entire tour (yes there are players outside of top4 wonder if ppl know that sometimes) are full of pigeons.

Top players work like this: Someone beats them 5 times they think no way this guy beats me 6 times. Then they get beaten 6 times they go to 7 and so on. That is how they must work no matter how horrible the matchup is. Roger isn't avoiding Rafa. He probably welcomes another chance to beat him

Soderling got to 0-12 before he finally beat Roger in his 13th try in a GS QF. But he often fought his heart out vs Roger getting him to TBs and close matches despite Roger being the best player on the tour to use his own power against him. At the same time Soderling has his own pigeons. That is hot the ATP works. matchups, matchups, matchups. Just because there is a pigeon situation among the top3 that doesn't mean there is mental slavery going on.

Go to the pigeon thread. The entire freaking tour is full of mental slaves then. Not true. It's just full of good players, less good players and horrible matchups. I guess Roger Federer must be the biggest mental overlord of all time if there is any truth in your mental slavery theory but then just happens to become a mental slave to Nadal? No Roger is probably the most mentally stable and strong guy that you can find in tennis. But he can't use that to make Nadal play worse. Nadal vs Roger IF Nadal perfects his strategy vs the Federer backhand on clay it is out of Roger's hands. He needs Nadal to throw the match then.

Ask yourself how come Federer has no issues at all playing vs Nadal on low bouncing hardcourt? How come he got issues with Nadal on grass the year they changed it to more high bouncing and slower? I mean if Roger was a mental slave to Nadal how come he took him to school in the World Tour Finals a few months back on indoor hardcourt? Nadal definitely worked his ass off to win that. He has never won the world tour finals



i totally understand the dynamics of match-ups, but i also understand that rafa and roger aren't just 2 players.. they're the 2 most dominant players of the last 7 years and their rivalry has become the stuff of legend.. hence, for the two participants in that battle for supremacy, every encounter essentially means a tournament final and all the attendant scrutiny that comes with it.. so that what starts out as a battle of tactical supremacy in a virtual fishbowl, ultimately gives way to a mental battle of wills played under a media microspcope, and in this particular match-up, rafa's been the beneficiary of that uber-scrutinized mental tug-o-war to a staggering degree, especially on clay though certainly not exclusively.. that's the kind of mental stamina rafa has.. the kind that has outlasted roger's through all the scrutiny and pressure that comes with meeting in so many consecutive, high-profile finals.. now what kind of a mental toll do you think being on the receiving end of this onslaught ultimately exacts on roger? even a top-notch athlete will dust himself off, pick himself back up and shrug off only so many losses before it all starts playing havoc with his psyche.. you would not be human if you managed to remain completely mentally unaffected by such mental domination.. regarding indoor hc tennis, that is about the only venue where roger still holds an edge over rafa, but i dare say that is primarily due to the fact that indoor hc expose rafa's own mental shortcomings in a way that no other surface is capable of doing, as that is, not surprisingly, his least favorite surface by far and roger of course knows this..

btw, roger is indeed a 'mental overlord' against other lesser mortals, such as andy roddick for instance.. yet in the rafa/roger match-up, the 'mental overlord' is rafa.. that's indeed the fascinating thing about match-ups..

anticaria
06-05-2011, 03:01 AM
At least Federer has somewhat of a match-up excuse (one-handed backhand). Murray doesn't.


that is what leads me to thinking that andy may never be able to best even a woefully subpar rafa on clay.. some have said since this edition of r garros started that rafa would never reach the final.. that he was way too vulnerable to a degree never before seen, not having been pushed to a 5-setter in paris prior to his 1st-round match with isner this year.. yet, the spaniard has defied all gloom-and-doom prognostications and has in fact become stronger with every match, though he still wasn't where he needed to be for a semi-final meeting.. which suggests that this may indeed have been andy's best chance ever to push rafa to the brink at a non-hc major.. and yet, he still lost in straights.. again, mentally, andy's merely there to do rafa's bidding on clay..

at least the meetings between roger and rafa on clay, with few exceptions, have roger going through patches where he temporarily almost feels empowered and ready, willing and able to take it to rafa.. unfortunately, these patches are woefully shortlived..

by contrast, one never feels andy is ever truly ready to pull the trigger against rafa even when he seemingly finds a perfect opening.. the brit inevitably always blinks first when the going gets tough in those crucial clutch moments..

tests
06-05-2011, 03:08 AM
I've said it 100000 times. Nadal is 2 notches above Murray when the match is not played on a hardcourt, which doesn't mean that he can't beat Murray on a hardcourt, of course.

and how many notches above is he against fed

calvinhobbes
06-05-2011, 03:10 AM
i still think that simply saying rafa's the clay goat and the better claycourt specialist is too simplistic a way to look at it.. roger isn't the claycourt player sampras was.. far from it, the swiss is perhaps the greatest all-surface player who ever lived as well as the second-best claycourt player alive today..

with that in mind, there's no excuse for roger losing to anyone else regardless of surface to the ridiculously lopsided degree which the swiss has lost to on clay to rafa, clay goat or not..

imho, the primary explanation for their claycourt h2h lopsidedness lies elsewhere.. i.e., the primary obstacle separating rafa from roger on any surface is the mental fortitude rafa enjoys when he plays the swiss, especially on clay.. the kind of mental hold that says: 'no matter how well you play against me today, i'll always be in control and we both know it'.. and this i believe goes back to the '06 rome final, a match rafa had no business winning and a match which forever sealed roger's fate against his younger nemesis.. had roger somehow found a way to prevail in that match, the entire history of their rivalry might have very well been a heck of a lot more competitive, on clay or elsewhere..

unfortunately for roger, mental/confidence gains from beating other players (like say from beating nole today) are largely futile against the spaniard on clay, for rafa is even better against everyone else not named federer on that surface, so that no win could ever prepare the swiss for what he knows surely awaits him in sunday's final (especially given rafa's current 11:0 record after he's reached the semis at r garros).. i.e., while beating nole and breaching the serbian's wall of confidence was impressive, ultimately, at r garros or in best-of-five matches, nole is no rafa and roger knows this all too well..

Youīre trying to depict Roger as a poor retard, who trembles at the pure sight of that allmighty clay-god.
I dontīt buy that "mental/confidence" bullshit. If some mind case could be the reason of Fedīs disadvantage, their hth would be N:0 on clay, and Roger wouldnīt have won Hamburg or Madrid, even admitting Nadalīs injuries.
The reason of Nadalīs succes is that he was brought up on clay and laboratory-made with all the conditions and techniques to be effective on that surface. He was engineered by Uncle Tony and the spanish school into that style of play, based on defense and brutally-forced top spin. Federer was formed in a more natural and eclectic style, suited to the original aesthetical and varied conception of the game. This was enough for him to reach the incredible heights he has been at, but not enough to beat Nadal regularly on clay. Neither his style nor his physical complexion are enough to withstand the brutality of Nadalīs game. Fed tries to refine the best qualities of his style in order to develop a winning strategy, to no avail. As long as Nadal keeps his physical strength on clay, Roger will smash his head against a wall. Fear has nothing to do with that. Itīs in the nature of things. A tiger canīt win against a stampede of buffaloes . . . . .:mad::mad::mad:

tests
06-05-2011, 03:16 AM
that is what leads me to thinking that andy may never be able to best even a woefully subpar rafa on clay.. some have said since this edition of r garros started that rafa would never reach the final.. that he was way too vulnerable to a degree never before seen, not having been pushed to a 5-setter in paris prior to his 1st-round match with isner this year.. yet, the spaniard has defied all gloom-and-doom prognostications and has in fact become stronger with every match, though he still wasn't where he needed to be for a semi-final meeting.. which suggests that this may indeed have been andy's best chance ever to push rafa to the brink at a non-hc major.. and yet, he still lost in straights.. again, mentally, andy's merely there to do rafa's bidding on clay..

at least the meetings between roger and rafa on clay, with few exceptions, have roger going through patches where he temporarily almost feels empowered and ready, willing and able to take it to rafa.. unfortunately, these patches are woefully shortlived..

by contrast, one never feels andy is ever truly ready to pull the trigger against rafa even when he seemingly finds a perfect opening.. the brit inevitably always blinks first when the going gets tough in those crucial clutch moments..

well said mate. Well said. Fed has a match-up issue with nadal, but he also has a mental issue. How many times have we seen fed put a beating on nadal on clay or other courts... only to lose the match. The 2006 fo comes to mind. Rome comes to mind... Its as if fed suddenly shrinks in the bigger points (Which imho is what is usually the deciding factor between the two), while nadal excels. This is no excuse, its just a fact that imho in that respective match-up, nadal is mentally stronger than federer.

With murray, i think murray can and always will have a chance to beat nadal on hardcourts. Can't say the same for clay or grass.

The thing about nadal is that you can't just hang with him physically (Which only a few players can do), but you also have to mentally be prepared to fight him. This is where federer always seems to fail. Tommorow will be the same result. Nadal and federer will have a close-battle, and than when it comes to the DECIDING point, nadal will prevail (this can be attributed to nadal's mental strenght, BUT IMHO match-ups have a lot to do with it.) For example, when the going gets tough, and both players are playing a big point, nadal literally just has to keep pounding federers backhand, serving out wide with that slice serve... he has this set equation that never fails against federer. Thus, "mentally" nadal does not need to really doubt himself because he just needs to follow the equation. Federer on the other hand has to come up with brilliant stuff on big points just to win them, thus "mentally" it is a much more difficult burden.


But to answer the O.P.S question, no one is really a mental "slave" to rafa. Rafa is a more mentally tougher player than fed and murray.

tests
06-05-2011, 03:19 AM
Youīre trying to depict Roger as a poor retard, who trembles at the pure sight of that allmighty clay-god.
I dontīt buy that "mental/confidence" bullshit. If some mind case could be the reason of Fedīs disadvantage, their hth would be N:0 on clay, and Roger wouldnīt have won Hamburg or Madrid, even admitting Nadalīs injuries.
The reason of Nadalīs succes is that he was brought up on clay and laboratory-made with all the conditions and techniques to be effective on that surface. He was engineered by Uncle Tony and the spanish school into that style of play, based on defense and brutally-forced top spin. Federer was formed in a more natural and eclectic style, suited to the original aesthetical and varied conception of the game. This was enough for him to reach the incredible heights he has been at, but not enough to beat Nadal regularly on clay. Neither his style nor his physical complexion are enough to withstand the brutality of Nadalīs game. Fed tries to refine the best qualities of his style in order to develop a winning strategy, to no avail. As long as Nadal keeps his physical strength on clay, Roger will smash his head against a wall. Fear has nothing to do with that. Itīs in the nature of things. A tiger canīt win against a stampede of buffaloes . . . . .:mad::mad::mad:

:worship::worship:

anticaria
06-05-2011, 06:13 AM
If they were his mental slaves they would try to avoid playing him


how would they 'avoid' playing him?

anticaria
06-05-2011, 06:56 AM
well said mate. Well said. Fed has a match-up issue with nadal, but he also has a mental issue. How many times have we seen fed put a beating on nadal on clay or other courts... only to lose the match. The 2006 fo comes to mind. Rome comes to mind... Its as if fed suddenly shrinks in the bigger points (Which imho is what is usually the deciding factor between the two), while nadal excels. This is no excuse, its just a fact that imho in that respective match-up, nadal is mentally stronger than federer.

With murray, i think murray can and always will have a chance to beat nadal on hardcourts. Can't say the same for clay or grass.

The thing about nadal is that you can't just hang with him physically (Which only a few players can do), but you also have to mentally be prepared to fight him. This is where federer always seems to fail. Tommorow will be the same result. Nadal and federer will have a close-battle, and than when it comes to the DECIDING point, nadal will prevail (this can be attributed to nadal's mental strenght, BUT IMHO match-ups have a lot to do with it.) For example, when the going gets tough, and both players are playing a big point, nadal literally just has to keep pounding federers backhand, serving out wide with that slice serve... he has this set equation that never fails against federer. Thus, "mentally" nadal does not need to really doubt himself because he just needs to follow the equation. Federer on the other hand has to come up with brilliant stuff on big points just to win them, thus "mentally" it is a much more difficult burden.


But to answer the O.P.S question, no one is really a mental "slave" to rafa. Rafa is a more mentally tougher player than fed and murray.



i couldn't agree more.. we may disagree on the semantics but i can live with that.. again, my allusion to roger as rafa's 'mental slave' was just my way of referencing precisely the fact that rafa is, as you point out, infinitely stronger mentally than the swiss, a fact which becomes all the more obvious on clay, particularly at r garros where it has become a outright ownership.. the proverbial icing on the cake that makes rafa such an ironclad opponent against the swiss on the red stuff.. except i don't just view rafa as merely being tougher mentally.. i view him as being staggeringly stronger in that regard.. i.e.,to be stronger in the mental dept. than another player is one thing but to dominate a player mentally to the degree which rafa has managed to dominate roger on clay is something else entirely..

chammer44
06-05-2011, 07:26 AM
Murray has zero mental problems with rafa. He simply lacks the firepower.

tests
06-05-2011, 07:37 AM
Murray has zero mental problems with rafa. He simply lacks the firepower.

murray has enough firepower to beat nadal on hardcourts. He just lacks the firepower on clay (and maybe wimby)

sco
06-05-2011, 08:33 AM
There's a reason why greats such as Navratilova won 9 W and only 2 FOs and why Sampras won 7 Ws and 0 FOs. At that level, surface is a big thing.

If tomorrow, all the tourneys switched to a fast, low-bouncing indoor court, who do you think would suddenly start winning all the tourneys. Or if they all switched to clay, Nadal would probably win the majority of them. It's Federer's misfortune that the powers that be decided to slow down the game. If Wimbledon had remained super fast, low-bouncing and AO had adopted a faster court like USO, Nadal probably wouldn't have won either and Federer would have won them instead. It would have taken Nadal a lot longer to learn to win on the old grass. Everybody would be at the mercy of big servers (like Borg was with Victor Amaya and Vijay Armitraj) in the early rounds of Wimbledon. Fed would probably be okay since he handles big servers well, but Nadal would have struggled mightily.

The powers that be have a lot to do with equalizing the surfaces and have probably robbed Federer of 2 Wimbledons (if they hadn't messed with the fast grass). This is the biggest reason for the lop-sided head-to-head. Federer probably concedes (meaning losing to Nadal on clay is not messing with his head) to Nadal's supremacy on clay the way Martina did with Chris on clay. The same problem would have happened to Sampras and Navratilova at W if they'd slowed down the grass for them.

anticaria
06-05-2011, 01:04 PM
Youīre trying to depict Roger as a poor retard, who trembles at the pure sight of that allmighty clay-god.
I dontīt buy that "mental/confidence" bullshit. If some mind case could be the reason of Fedīs disadvantage, their hth would be N:0 on clay, and Roger wouldnīt have won Hamburg or Madrid, even admitting Nadalīs injuries.
The reason of Nadalīs succes is that he was brought up on clay and laboratory-made with all the conditions and techniques to be effective on that surface. He was engineered by Uncle Tony and the spanish school into that style of play, based on defense and brutally-forced top spin. Federer was formed in a more natural and eclectic style, suited to the original aesthetical and varied conception of the game. This was enough for him to reach the incredible heights he has been at, but not enough to beat Nadal regularly on clay. Neither his style nor his physical complexion are enough to withstand the brutality of Nadalīs game. Fed tries to refine the best qualities of his style in order to develop a winning strategy, to no avail. As long as Nadal keeps his physical strength on clay, Roger will smash his head against a wall. Fear has nothing to do with that. Itīs in the nature of things. A tiger canīt win against a stampede of buffaloes . . . . .:mad::mad::mad:


just because roger happens to have lost the 'mental' battle against rafa does not mean he's somehow some 'poor retard'.. that bit of hyperbole has no place here.. i.e., a player's greatness does not necessarily preclude them or make them automatically immune to losing 'mental battles' against opponents who match-up extremely well against them, as rafa does against roger.. as i have said before, the swiss would have to be superhuman in order not to falter mentally in the face of such a relentless onslaught, particularly on clay.. and let's face it, at the lofty level these two guys find themselves, it ultimately becomes all about the mentality, especially in those all-too-crucial clutch moments.. the moments which have made rafa such a legend at the majors vis a vis the swiss and everyone else for that matter..

ossie
06-05-2011, 01:07 PM
Spain
atp

MaxPower
06-05-2011, 01:19 PM
Hey since this thread is still running. Let me ask what happens with this theory if Federer wins today? Has the slave broken his chains then?

Also how good of a performance does it take for him to not be considered a mental slave but just the inferior clay player? Is he mentally strong if he can take a set? 2 sets? Push one set to TB?

thegreendestiny
06-05-2011, 01:29 PM
Federer unfortunately. It's like Rafa is his Achilles's heel.

anticaria
06-05-2011, 06:34 PM
Hey since this thread is still running. Let me ask what happens with this theory if Federer wins today? Has the slave broken his chains then?





you were saying?

i think roger's notorious inability to even push rafa to 5 sets at r garros is very telling.. like mary carillo said:

how could the the so-called greatest player of all time not be able to overcome the greatest player of his generation? :eek:

very good observation and one that gives one pause for sure..

i'm afraid roger's still, at the very least, rafa's most notoriously high-profile mental slave at this point.. :shrug:

anticaria
07-01-2011, 08:39 PM
after today's monumental semi-final fiasco, i believe andy may have just overtaken roger for top honors.. if only barely.. :eek:

TheRafaelNadal
07-01-2011, 08:43 PM
Murray has only lost to Rafa on clay/Grass. In hard court slams murray is 2-0 vs. rafa. So easily Federer who has lost to him a dozen times including all surfaces.

homogenius
07-01-2011, 08:44 PM
Roger

allpro
07-01-2011, 08:46 PM
fed loves taking it up the ass from nadal http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sex011.gif

superslam77
07-01-2011, 08:46 PM
of the top 4, i used to think no one could be a bigger mental midget against a healthy rafa than roger himself, yet i'm thinking murray may be gaining on roger in the 'how can i best serve master rafa' contest..

roger trails rafa 8:16..

andy trails rafa 4:11..

at the majors, andy trails rafa 2:4 and roger trails rafa 2:6..

and while nole trails rafa by a shocking 0:5 at the majors, the serbian has beaten rafa nearly as many times as both roger and andy combined for an 11:16 lifetime h2h..



you realize that Fed is the only person in the world to have saved tennis and he did it twice. in 2006 and 2007.

master series are ok but what matters is GS.

MIMIC
07-01-2011, 08:47 PM
Spain

:haha:

TheRafaelNadal
07-01-2011, 08:48 PM
you realize that Fed is the only person in the world to have saved tennis and he did it twice. in 2006 and 2007.

master series are ok but what matters is GS.

agree with this, H2H should only matter for slams. Best of 2 sets is nothing.

luie
07-01-2011, 08:50 PM
Its fed still but Murray is catching up because,,fed is an old-man now,,,while Murray is in his PRIME years also Murray has a strong 2hbh,,no reason to lose so much to nadull off clay.

e476
07-01-2011, 08:52 PM
fed loves taking it up the ass from nadal http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sex011.gif
:sobbing: So true. :hysteric: Hopeless Murray is catching up though. :tape:

Vida
07-01-2011, 09:00 PM
rafa is a permanent resident inside feds head for a long time now. they are best friends.

superslam77
07-01-2011, 09:02 PM
rafa is a permanent resident inside feds head for a long time now. they are best friends.

imagine nole who will be 0-6 in GS tomorrow :o


k roastings of all time.
-----------------------------
Nole 11
Fed 9
Kolya 5?

not bad.

Drugs Ruin Lives
07-01-2011, 09:05 PM
Federer. Murray is just a bad player.

MIMIC
07-01-2011, 09:13 PM
Murray is just a slave to anyone playing better than him. You can see the obvious panic in Fed's game sometimes when he plays Nadal.

anticaria
07-01-2011, 09:57 PM
Murray has zero mental problems with rafa. He simply lacks the firepower.


after today's fiasco, i believe just the opposite is true.. i.e., murray's firepower ain't the issue.. andy's primary trouble vis a vis rafa lies between his ears.. :shrug:

Vida
07-01-2011, 10:10 PM
should be said, that federers mental midgetry vs nadal is overblown. I mean it exists, but fed is beaten even before he has a chance to blow it mentally.

luie
07-01-2011, 10:13 PM
Murray just seems to be mentally weak on the "big stage"

makesmewonder
07-01-2011, 10:52 PM
Slave? oh...

makesmewonder
07-01-2011, 10:54 PM
Federer. Murray is just a bad player.

:lol:

FormerRafaFan
07-02-2011, 12:39 AM
Rafa is a bigger mental slave to Nole than either Murray or Fed is to Rafa, which is why Rafa will lose the final on sunday.

atennisfan
07-02-2011, 02:04 AM
Murray is just a slave to anyone playing better than him. You can see the obvious panic in Fed's game sometimes when he plays Nadal.

Yep totally true.
I'm just a fan and novice at tennis, but even I could see it whenever Fed played Nadal in GS.

atennisfan
07-02-2011, 02:06 AM
Murray just seems to be mentally weak on the "big stage"

very true. That's why he'll never win a slam before the big trio retire, although skill wise he does have it to win a slam.

Black Adam
07-02-2011, 02:12 AM
Most of the tour is Nadal's bitch. Fact.

anticaria
07-02-2011, 05:36 AM
Rafa is a bigger mental slave to Nole than either Murray or Fed is to Rafa, which is why Rafa will lose the final on sunday.


how can rafa be a 'bigger' mental slave to nole when he actually leads nole 5:0 at the majors, 6:0 in best-of-five matches and 16:11 lifetime? :eek:

a few best-of-three wins over rafa don't automatically translate into a best-of-five win, sorry..