Wayne Odesnik [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Wayne Odesnik

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jonathancrane
03-26-2010, 07:56 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ap-odesnik-hgh&prov=ap&type=lgns

BRISBANE, Australia (AP)—An Australian court has fined American tennis player Wayne Odesnik for importing human growth hormone into the country.

The 24-year-old Odesnik, ranked No. 98 in the world, was stopped by customs officers as he arrived in Australia in January ahead of the Brisbane International and Australian Open. Eight vials, each containing 6 milligrams of HGH, were found among his baggage.

Odesnik, 24, pleaded guilty in the Brisbane Magistrates Court on Friday to importing the hormone and was fined $7,280 plus $1,040 in court costs.

The matter is now expected to be referred to the International Tennis Federation and Odesnik faces a possible two-year ban for possession of a prohibited substance.

Odesnik reached the quarterfinals at Brisbane before and the second round of the Australian Open.

-----------------

:spit:

The Cañas effect?

The_Nadal_effect
03-26-2010, 08:01 AM
Some coaching! :lol:

Arkulari
03-26-2010, 08:01 AM
OMG, this is...

:spit:

a BIG coincidence, right? :rolleyes:

krystlel
03-26-2010, 08:11 AM
The Cañas effect?
:lol:

I was just going to say that I think Odesnik should get a harsher punishment than this, but yeah even the ITF hasn't looked at it yet.

bokehlicious
03-26-2010, 08:13 AM
Since HGH can't be detected by controls I suspect Odesnik is not the only player to use it :angel: :o

rhinooooo
03-26-2010, 08:17 AM
:haha: I thought this was going to be a wind-up...

Roddickominator
03-26-2010, 08:31 AM
lmao that didn't take long. Nice work Guillermo!

A bunch of players are probably on that stuff, seeing as it's undetectable at this point. Well actually there is a test for it finally, but we're unsure of the accuracy and it isn't widely used yet.

kobulingam
03-26-2010, 08:35 AM
Canas body is no coincidence.

Jelena
03-26-2010, 08:41 AM
Was Cañas already in January Odesnik's coach?

But even if not it made me :spit:

FlavorNuts
03-26-2010, 09:14 AM
This was before Canas.

DanaKz
03-26-2010, 09:19 AM
CANAS!!!!!!
:haha:

marquez
03-26-2010, 10:47 AM
canas pays off

Nathaliia
03-26-2010, 11:01 AM
I think it's like in this "Final Destination" movie... let's watch Capdeville's fate now closely.

MacTheKnife
03-26-2010, 11:43 AM
Well it's apparent that HGH does not help tennis players that much.. :lol:

Action Jackson
03-26-2010, 11:56 AM
Hmmmmm

bad gambler
03-26-2010, 12:03 PM
:haha:

scoobs
03-26-2010, 12:08 PM
Well it's apparent that HGH does not help tennis players that much.. :lol:
Well no, I don't think it encourages brain growth... :shrug:

timafi
03-26-2010, 12:18 PM
:eek:

Mjau!
03-26-2010, 01:20 PM
:wavey: Wayne! I doubt he can weasel his way out of a 2-year ban.

Action Jackson
03-26-2010, 01:21 PM
Here it is in some more detail.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sport/us-tennis-player-fined-for-importing-hgh-20100326-r2xs.html

US tennis player fined for importing HGH
SAM LIENERT
March 26, 2010 - 8:34PM


AAP

American tennis player Wayne Odesnik faces a possible two-year ban after pleading guilty to importing human growth hormone (HGH) into Australia.

Customs officers found eight vials, each containing 6mg of HGH, in Odesnik's baggage, when he arrived in Australia in January to play in the Brisbane International and Australian Open.

The American 24-year-old, ranked No.98 in the world, pleaded guilty in the Brisbane Magistrates Court to importing the hormone and was fined $8000 and ordered to pay $1142.80 in costs.

Odesnik made the quarter-finals in Brisbane, and reached the second round of the Australian Open, for which he picked up a $31,500 pay cheque.

The matter will now be referred to the International Tennis Federation (ITF).

Under the World Anti-Doping Authority (WADA) code - to which the ITF is a signatory - the penalty for possession of a prohibited substance is a two-year ban from the sport.

ITF head of communications Barbara Travers said it was her understanding that a two-year ban was the penalty for such an offence.

The Tennis Anti-Doping Program, which the ITF manages, would begin an investigation as soon as possible.

"Now that the civil case is concluded, the Tennis Anti-Doping Program will being an investigation, as we would in any doping case," Travers said.

"We don't really comment on it once it's gone into the system.

"We've confirmed that he's going to be investigated but other than that, we don't really comment."

Odesnik has a career-high ranking of No.77.

He has played in four tournaments in the United States since the Australian Open, advancing beyond the first round just once.

The Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority was aware of the charges against Odesnik before he played in the season's opening grand slam.

"We've been aware of the case as part of our usual information-sharing agreement with the Australian Customs Service - that's how we got notified," an ASADA spokesman told the Associated Press.

"We had to wait for Customs to take it to court. Now that has happened, our investigation team will look at the information going forward."

Henry Chinaski
03-26-2010, 01:24 PM
I'd imagine HGH use is rampant at the highest level of all professional sports.

Taken properly it really is a miracle drug. Like anabolic steroids with no side effects apart from the obvious ones like improved muscle mass, lower body fat, better skin. It can even improve eyesight apparently.

Action Jackson
03-26-2010, 01:27 PM
HGH is rampant as it's very hard to detect and the pro sportspeople can afford it.

Henry, well arguably the best footballer in the world was on HGH as a teenager.

Henry Chinaski
03-26-2010, 01:28 PM
Well no, I don't think it encourages brain growth... :shrug:

au contraire!

One exciting way hgh affects brain tissue is it has been shown to bring about increased concentrations of neurotransmitters in the brain. Since these neurotransmitters are the actual carriers of information from brain cell to brain cell, one would expect that hgh affects brain function by speeding up and enhancing brain function.

And many who have undergone HGH replacement therapy have attested to just that: they’ve got back the sharp memory of younger days, recaptured the quick thinking. To quote Dr. Chein once again: “Loss of memory has long been linked to aging, and now, researchers have . found a direct link between memory skills and the amount of growth hormone in the body.”

the study of the effects of hgh on brain function is still in it's infancy afaik but it's seen as a possible future cure for alzheimers.

Not trying to say it's going make Berdych think like Kasparov on court just reiterating my "miracle drug" point. The potential benefits of taking hgh are wide-ranging

Henry Chinaski
03-26-2010, 01:30 PM
HGH is rampant as it's very hard to detect and the pro sportspeople can afford it.

Henry, well arguably the best footballer in the world was on HGH as a teenager.

true about Messi.

It raises an interesting question about guys like Beranakis, whose career will likely always be restricted by his heigth. Perhaps he would have been better off taking a year of the tour in his teens some time and undergoing heavy hgh treatment. I don't know enough about it to know how it works or whether anyone can benefit on it...

Action Jackson
03-26-2010, 01:32 PM
true about Messi.

It raises an interesting question about guys like Beranakis, whose career will likely always be restricted by his heigth. Perhaps he would have been better off taking a year of the tour in his teens some time and undergoing heavy hgh treatment. I don't know enough about it to know how it works or whether anyone can benefit on it...

Zico as well was on a course of HGH. At the same time not sure how much cash Berankis has, as the stuff is not cheap.

Mjau!
03-26-2010, 01:40 PM
I'd imagine HGH use is rampant at the highest level of all professional sports.

Taken properly it really is a miracle drug. Like anabolic steroids with no side effects apart from the obvious ones like improved muscle mass, lower body fat, better skin. It can even improve eyesight apparently.

It's obviously nowhere near as effective as AAS as no one has even managed to prove that HGH improves strength.

Bone growth, organ growth and messed up thyroid hormone levels aren't side-effects?

scoobs
03-26-2010, 01:49 PM
au contraire!



the study of the effects of hgh on brain function is still in it's infancy afaik but it's seen as a possible future cure for alzheimers.

Not trying to say it's going make Berdych think like Kasparov on court just reiterating my "miracle drug" point. The potential benefits of taking hgh are wide-ranging
Gosh.

Smart tennis players.

I'm not sure the world is ready for this revolution.

R.Federer
03-26-2010, 02:23 PM
Not good for Wayne, and quite bad for Willy too. What a coincidence -- yes, I'm assuming it is coincidence.

scarecrows
03-26-2010, 02:27 PM
:haha:

you should get your old Odesnik avatar back

bokehlicious
03-26-2010, 02:29 PM
Taken properly it really is a miracle drug. Like anabolic steroids with no side effects apart from the obvious ones like improved muscle mass, lower body fat, better skin. It can even improve eyesight apparently.

Only con is that it's much more expensive than steroids... Well, I guess most pro players can afford it easily though.

ExcaliburII
03-26-2010, 02:31 PM
Of course it is coincidence, this was before Canas coached Odesnik...


Ban this doper.

First clear and undoubtable case of a player doping himself to take advantage.

zeleni
03-26-2010, 02:34 PM
It is dangerous to toy with hormones because you never know side effects.
I think it is OK to take hormone therapy only in childhood in case of some disruption, like in Messi case.

bokehlicious
03-26-2010, 02:37 PM
It is dangerous to toy with hormones because you never know side effects.

Side effects of HGH are well known. Side effects are way worse with hormones such as testosterone...

Macbrother
03-26-2010, 02:55 PM
I'm sure it was for his sick grandmother. Everyone stop jumping on his case.

philosophicalarf
03-26-2010, 03:23 PM
Fixer and doper. No wonder he picked Canas as a coach.

Snoo Foo
03-26-2010, 03:25 PM
is he so ugly and unpleasant he couldn't get one of his team or his gf to carry it for him?

Forehander
03-26-2010, 03:56 PM
Yeah Canas!!!! Whoohoo!!

Bashak
03-26-2010, 04:24 PM
Not exactly but pretty much the same thought crossed my mind when I saw this piece of news. How big of an idiot is he that he is not only using but also carrying banned substances himself? Then I thought maybe he was traveling alone and had no clue that customs look for suspicious vials.

is he so ugly and unpleasant he couldn't get one of his team or his gf to carry it for him?

Mateya
03-26-2010, 04:27 PM
Are you feeling tired? Your fitness sucks? Is your tennis in trouble?
Need some good stuff and fast?

Don't hang around and contact Willy immediately.
:smoke: :telephone:

Dupuis2006
03-26-2010, 04:37 PM
OMFG! :eek:

Fee
03-26-2010, 06:14 PM
This was before Canas.

Way before, but no matter how many times that fact is posted in this thread people will still ignore it and assume some connection.

is he so ugly and unpleasant he couldn't get one of his team or his gf to carry it for him?

Wayne mostly travels alone and on a pretty tight budget. He got very little support from the USTA so yeah, he was probably traveling alone.

Pea
03-26-2010, 06:39 PM
Is that the only punishment he's getting?

TMJordan
03-26-2010, 06:43 PM
I love Canas.

Riosreigned
03-26-2010, 08:33 PM
Odesnik was the player who blew off like 20 attempts to interview him by a newspaper reporter before the Delray tournament. He ignored 20 emails and calls. Now after this news comes to light, it appears he had a good reason too not want to talk to the media.

Nathaliia
03-26-2010, 08:51 PM
Wayne mostly travels alone and on a pretty tight budget. He got very little support from the USTA so yeah, he was probably traveling alone.
And now we know what he is spending his money on. As for Canas, it should be in the thread title it was before Canas.

What doesn't change the fact these two found each other after the incident, so this should be a known case behind the scenes, or Odesnik at least told his coach about what's on.

Henry Chinaski
03-26-2010, 08:58 PM
Way before, but no matter how many times that fact is posted in this thread people will still ignore it and assume some connection.



Wayne mostly travels alone and on a pretty tight budget. He got very little support from the USTA so yeah, he was probably traveling alone.

Tight budget is probably the reason he was importing it in the first place.

He could easily have found a doctor in the US who would have given it to him but those guys charge a fortune.

duong
03-26-2010, 09:07 PM
Way before, but no matter how many times that fact is posted in this thread people will still ignore it and assume some connection.


why start coaching a player who's just been caught (when coming to Australia) and who will certainly be suspended ? :shrug:

Sorry it's not logical, except if their relation was not new

... or except if Odesnik had hidden it from him, but it's also strange :rolleyes:

Fee
03-26-2010, 09:12 PM
Tight budget is probably the reason he was importing it in the first place.

He could easily have found a doctor in the US who would have given it to him but those guys charge a fortune.

You understand that he was caught bringing it into Australia, on his trip from the US, right?

According to a Wertheim post on Twitter today, Canas was asked in Miami today and he said Wayne never told him there was a pending case in Australia.

duong
03-26-2010, 09:34 PM
You understand that he was caught bringing it into Australia, on his trip from the US, right?

According to a Wertheim post on Twitter today, Canas was asked in Miami today and he said Wayne never told him there was a pending case in Australia.

OK I have my answer but it's really hard to believe that Odesnik didn't tell him :confused:

Henry Chinaski
03-26-2010, 09:39 PM
You understand that he was caught bringing it into Australia, on his trip from the US, right?

.

I do now. I didn't before.

ChinoRios4Ever
03-27-2010, 02:55 AM
:o

Persimmon
03-27-2010, 02:57 AM
:o:o

ServeAlready81
03-27-2010, 03:59 AM
I think it's pretty apparent that professional athletes use PEDs. No way we can ignore it anymore. To add if players barely ranked inside the top 100 are getting caught, you'd better believe the top guys are using.


That being said, how dumb of him to not only try and smuggle drugs off an international flight but to carry them himself :o

KarlyM
03-27-2010, 04:00 AM
Wayne-O! :eek: I liked watching him play, particularly on clay. This is just horribly disappointing. :(

I feel a little bad for Canas getting looped into this.

dylan24
03-27-2010, 04:14 AM
who will be the next to have the great canas coach them?
f'ing scumbag canas ruined odesnik's career.
hope this ends canas career as a coach.
the guy is a cheater and i am positive canas was drugged up big time when he beat federer in indian wells and miami

Fee
03-27-2010, 05:14 AM
who will be the next to have the great canas coach them?
f'ing scumbag canas ruined odesnik's career.
hope this ends canas career as a coach.
the guy is a cheater and i am positive canas was drugged up big time when he beat federer in indian wells and miami

sooo.... you didn't read the thread?

Aquarianbabe
03-27-2010, 07:58 AM
Willy's retirement has gone so horribly wrong.

It might be inconceivable that Wayne did not tell his new coach of his arrest, but Canas and team should of investigated Wayne a little to find out if there was any issues. If Wayne did not tell Willy about this can Willy sue Wayne and Management for bringing his name and academy into disrepute (please don't laugh at me) because I am serious.

L James
03-27-2010, 09:01 AM
Roddick's comments:

"There's nothing worse than that," Roddick said at the Masters 1000 event in Miami. "That's just plain cheating, and they should throw him out of tennis. There's just no room for it."

DartMarcus
03-27-2010, 09:04 AM
Wayne. :o :sad:

duong
03-27-2010, 10:15 AM
Willy's retirement has gone so horribly wrong.

It might be inconceivable that Wayne did not tell his new coach of his arrest, but Canas and team should of investigated Wayne a little to find out if there was any issues. If Wayne did not tell Willy about this can Willy sue Wayne and Management for bringing his name and academy into disrepute (please don't laugh at me) because I am serious.

I don't think Canas could make any "investigation" if Odesnik didn't tell him,

but if really Odesnik didn't tell, yes of course Canas can throw him to court for his academy's disrepute.

However, I don't think we can say at this moment that it's certain that Canas is not involved, just because of his words. Let's wait for more investigation by the authorities :shrug:

Bilbo
03-27-2010, 11:42 AM
I'd imagine HGH use is rampant at the highest level of all professional sports.

Taken properly it really is a miracle drug. Like anabolic steroids with no side effects apart from the obvious ones like improved muscle mass, lower body fat, better skin. It can even improve eyesight apparently.

since when does anabolic has no side effects?

Nathaliia
03-27-2010, 12:00 PM
Willy's retirement has gone so horribly wrong.

It might be inconceivable that Wayne did not tell his new coach of his arrest, but Canas and team should of investigated Wayne a little to find out if there was any issues. If Wayne did not tell Willy about this can Willy sue Wayne and Management for bringing his name and academy into disrepute (please don't laugh at me) because I am serious.
It's impossible to keep such thing in secret. Surely the word would let go and the players very quickly would know about it. The word at least as a gossip should reach his new coach. I know all innocent until proven guilty, but there are some certain patterns of human behaviour among any society. And actually, tennis society loves the news and the gossip.

smitty8
03-27-2010, 02:55 PM
Oh Wayne, you idiot. :banghead:

Fee
03-27-2010, 04:46 PM
From tennisreporters.net:

Canas, who announced his retirement on Friday, said in Miami that he was unaware of the situation. “"I'm surprise[d] like you guys. ''I'm helping him when he's here,'' said Canas. "It's tough for me to speak because I don't know nothing. I want to try, if I can, to help him.''

Looks like Canas is putting a little distance there, 'I don't travel with Wayne, I only coach him in Miami. What do I know?'

brent-o
03-27-2010, 04:56 PM
Wonder what Odesnik's case will be? A hooker slipped it into his bag? ;)

duong
03-27-2010, 05:03 PM
From tennisreporters.net:

Canas, who announced his retirement on Friday, said in Miami that he was unaware of the situation. “"I'm surprise[d] like you guys. ''I'm helping him when he's here,'' said Canas. "It's tough for me to speak because I don't know nothing. I want to try, if I can, to help him.''

Looks like Canas is putting a little distance there, 'I don't travel with Wayne, I only coach him in Miami. What do I know?'

it seemed to me that I had heared about him coaching Odesnik before Miami, am I wrong ? when did we first hear of their cooperation ?

Fee
03-27-2010, 05:05 PM
it seemed to me that I had heared about him coaching Odesnik before Miami, am I wrong ? when did we first hear of their cooperation ?

In Miami. As far as I know, Wayne was alone in Indian Wells.

duong
03-27-2010, 05:05 PM
Wonder what Odesnik's case will be? A hooker slipped it into his bag? ;)

I had read that Odesnik pled guilty : in those cases usually people can speak a lot ;)

duong
03-27-2010, 05:06 PM
In Miami. As far as I know, Wayne was alone in Indian Wells.

Thanks :) I thought I had read about it before :shrug:

Henry Chinaski
03-27-2010, 05:13 PM
since when does anabolic has no side effects?

I said HGH has no side effects compared with synthetic anabolic steroids. I was exaggerating but afaik the side effects are mild and more associated with long term and unsupervised use. (watch an international rugby match and you'll see those caveman foreheads everywhere). Cheap anabolic steroids have instant side effects like mood swings, acne and impotence. there's none of that with hgh.

myrt
03-27-2010, 07:45 PM
I wish you Canas bashers would educate yourselves to the facts of his case. He took medication from a tournament doctor which turned out to contain a banned substance. He was ranked #10 in the world at the time.It blew his career apart. He was not a doper and there is no basis for your illeducated remarks. I give the guy credit having the courage to keep a stiff upper lip...train ...and get back in the game when his suspension was over. I wish Willy the best..he took his suspension like a man and hope he has a successful career as a coach.

Baghdatis72
03-27-2010, 08:12 PM
:haha: Hilarious case this one.

Snoo Foo
03-27-2010, 08:23 PM
Thanks :) I thought I had read about it before :shrug:

delray beach according to this post (http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=9684190&postcount=111)

Fee
03-27-2010, 08:59 PM
delray beach according to this post (http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=9684190&postcount=111)

Thank you. Here is Canas' interview transcript from yesterday, trying to clarify the whole situation: http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=62443

Q. I apologize for bringing it up in this setting, but I'm wondering if you've heard the news about Wayne Odesnik and the guilty plea in court?
GUILLERMO CAÑAS: Yeah, I hear this morning. But really, I don't know nothing. I'm surprise like you guys. Just I know Wayne for the tour. I know we had him in the academy in Miami for few weeks because he's from here.
But I don't know nothing about that thing.

Q. Are you still coaching him?
GUILLERMO CAÑAS: I'm still helping him when he's here in Miami. I don't travel nothing. I helping him, yes.
But, you know, it's tough for me to speak because I don't know nothing. Just I know a like hour ago what is in the news, and that's it.

Q. So this was news to you? You didn't know he had an issue in Australia?
GUILLERMO CAÑAS: Yeah, yeah, nothing.

Q. Do you think tennis has a doping problem? Do you think there is a problem in the sport?
GUILLERMO CAÑAS: It's in any sport they have that problem, I know. It's tough to say. Like they have a lot of problems in the sports, doping, many things.
But they happen. The ATP -- now the ATP is fighting for that, and that's it.

Q. You and Wayne have obviously become friends in the last five months. What would you tell him? Would you give him some advice?
GUILLERMO CAÑAS: The thing is, I don't know what happened. Just I read something or they told me something happened before I came here. I don't know nothing about that.
Just I think it's -- I want to try, if I can, to help him. But, you know, the thing is like I don't know what happened. Just we didn't know after that.
But the thing is I come here just to talk about me. I think the important moment I have, just to tell, you know, why I pass one step off of the professional tennis in my life.


So it seems that Canas isn't really 'coaching' Wayne, as in full time with travel and all that, he's just 'working with him', so to speak.

duong
03-27-2010, 09:29 PM
So it seems that Canas isn't really 'coaching' Wayne, as in full time with travel and all that, he's just 'working with him', so to speak.

yes true but the interview also says that they've had relations for 5 months :

Q. You and Wayne have obviously become friends in the last five months.

Snoo Foo
03-27-2010, 09:45 PM
willy must be indescribably stupid to associate himself with odesnik if he knew about this. If i was willy(-the-doper) canas and i was about to open a tennis academy and embark on a coaching career, i would run for the hills the minute i found out my protege/pupil/whatever was mixed up in a doping bust, and not just an ambiguously failed test or some cocaine kiss shinola but a freaking possession rap

duong
03-27-2010, 09:49 PM
willy must be indescribably stupid to associate himself with odesnik if he knew about this. If i was willy(-the-doper) canas and i was about to open a tennis academy and embark on a coaching career, i would run for the hills the minute i found out my protege/pupil/whatever was mixed up in a doping bust, and not just an ambiguously failed test or some cocaine kiss shinola but a freaking possession rap

no either he didn't know ... or they had been engaged together before (which doesn't necessarily mean that Canas is guilty) :shrug:

anyway, as for this case, we will have to wait for the investigation :shrug:

Snoo Foo
03-27-2010, 09:57 PM
even if they had been engaged together before, willy shoulda just said, hey man, sorry but i really can't be tangled up in something like this, under the circumstances.

either way it's just stupid on so many levels, and how did nobody know about this? with all the obsessives and alleged insiders on mtf and around the tennis stalkersphere at large nobody got wind of this, odesnik going about his business playing tournaments, maybe he just thought nobody would find about it, australia is on the other side of the planet after all

Fee
03-27-2010, 10:24 PM
yes true but the interview also says that they've had relations for 5 months :

yeah I saw that, but I have no idea where the five months came from, or why it was considered 'obvious'? Cronin, Robson, Wertheim, etc all seemed to think it was news in the last 7 days that Canas was coaching Wayne. Last I heard, Mantilla was his coach (and I cannot get any info now, everyone I talk to is clamming up on this subject big time). I'll look around and see if Charlie Bricker ever wrote anything about it, he lives in Florida and might have heard something earlier.

smitty8
03-27-2010, 10:30 PM
You know, Wayne could've just kept this to himself and not told anyone, well, except maybe his lawyer.

duong
03-27-2010, 10:34 PM
yeah I saw that, but I have no idea where the five months came from, or why it was considered 'obvious'? Cronin, Robson, Wertheim, etc all seemed to think it was news in the last 7 days that Canas was coaching Wayne. Last I heard, Mantilla was his coach (and I cannot get any info now, everyone I talk to is clamming up on this subject big time). I'll look around and see if Charlie Bricker ever wrote anything about it, he lives in Florida and might have heard something earlier.

maybe he was just practicing in Canas' academy in that time but with a less official relation.

Or they communicated more about that this week, being in Miami where Canas has his academy and Canas communicating to announce his retirement.

Snoo Foo
03-27-2010, 10:35 PM
You know, Wayne could've just kept this to himself and not told anyone, well, except maybe his lawyer.

he prolly would have loved to but unfortunately for him getting arrested for international drug smuggling is not exactly a private personal matter :lol:

The Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority (http://msn.foxsports.com/tennis/story/wayne-odesnik-faces-ban-for-importing-HGH-032610) was aware of the charges against Odesnik. It said in a statement it has "power to receive information from Customs and to carry out investigations into possible violations of anti-doping rules.'

duong
03-27-2010, 10:42 PM
he prolly would have loved to but unfortunately for him getting arrested for international drug smuggling is not exactly a private personal matter :lol:

yes but it's still possible (although strange imo) that Canas didn't know

smitty8
03-27-2010, 10:52 PM
he prolly would have loved to but unfortunately for him getting arrested for international drug smuggling is not exactly a private personal matter :lol:

I still doubt he went around bragging about it. :rolleyes: I don't think he told Canas, which is kind of a shitty thing to do.

And I say again, Wayne, you are an idiot.

Action Jackson
03-28-2010, 02:45 AM
yeah I saw that, but I have no idea where the five months came from, or why it was considered 'obvious'? Cronin, Robson, Wertheim, etc all seemed to think it was news in the last 7 days that Canas was coaching Wayne. Last I heard, Mantilla was his coach (and I cannot get any info now, everyone I talk to is clamming up on this subject big time). I'll look around and see if Charlie Bricker ever wrote anything about it, he lives in Florida and might have heard something earlier.

Mantilla has been working with Tennis Australia and this is his 2nd year. He is based in Barcelona and only travels to events in Europe apart from the Aus Open.

It was only very brief his work with Odesnik and not for ages.

Fee
03-28-2010, 03:41 AM
Mantilla has been working with Tennis Australia and this is his 2nd year. He is based in Barcelona and only travels to events in Europe apart from the Aus Open.

It was only very brief his work with Odesnik and not for ages.


Gotcha. That sounds like the type of coaching Wayne could afford, bits and pieces here and there. Sucks to be a player outside the Top 50 I guess.

Aquarianbabe
03-29-2010, 12:41 AM
I have been thinking about this all weekend, and just cannot get my head around the fact that Willy did not know. If I was taking on a new charge I would ask the poeple who have worked with said player on previous occasions. I still think future that Willy needs to do some background checks before taking someone on to coach. Like a police clearance (most of us mere mortals have to do it), a drug test and talk to coaches etc to see if the guy is legit.

I do not think that Willy would jeopardise everything he has worked towards, said academy, supportive friends and great relationship. I think Willy's problem maybe that he is too naive or gulible.

How embarassing for the Brisbane tournie not to realise there was a problem with one of the players.

I just think is horrible that Wayne would use Willy's academy when he has this HGH charge knowing that Willy has already been suspended. I really hope that Willy is ok.

Julio
03-29-2010, 09:52 AM
That's the Cañas Tennis Academy. Too good. :lol:

Ad Wim
03-29-2010, 10:28 AM
Will Odesnik be suspended till further notice? Or can he keep playing?

martine2
03-29-2010, 12:15 PM
yes true but the interview also says that they've had relations for 5 months :

Well, Willy has his academy in Florida and Wayne lives there so it's not that strange that they saw a lot of each other ::shrug:
This doesn't mean Willy was coaching him.

I think it's obvious that willy didn't know about Wayne's problems when he started coaching him. You really think he'd be that stupid to get himself involved after all he went through and right at the moment he starts his academy?
It's bad publicity for his academy and I feel bad for him.

duong
03-29-2010, 02:51 PM
Well, Willy has his academy in Florida and Wayne lives there so it's not that strange that they saw a lot of each other ::shrug:
This doesn't mean Willy was coaching him.

I think it's obvious that willy didn't know about Wayne's problems when he started coaching him. You really think he'd be that stupid to get himself involved after all he went through and right at the moment he starts his academy?
It's bad publicity for his academy and I feel bad for him.

Maybe I have to say more clearly what my two versioons are :

1st version : Canas didn't know about that and was really unlucky
about it. That's a version which has often been said here.

The 2nd version is not "he knew yet accepted to coach him" : no, as you say, it's impossible as he would know these awful consequences.

No my second version is "he knew AND was involved" : their relation had started some time ago, and Canas was involved into that idea. Unfortunately for them, Odesnik was caught at the customs.

After that, and if you're involved, it's not easy just to say "I didn't do anything" and let the player manage oneself : actually if that's the truth, then Canas can be really afraid of Odesnik ;)

I hope now you understand better what I mean :shrug:

These are the only two plausible versions imo.

JMG
03-29-2010, 03:23 PM
No my second version is "he knew AND was involved" : their relation had started some time ago, and Canas was involved into that idea. Unfortunately for them, Odesnik was caught at the customs.

I rather believe in this version.

martine2
03-29-2010, 06:48 PM
Maybe I have to say more clearly what my two versioons are :

1st version : Canas didn't know about that and was really unlucky
about it. That's a version which has often been said here.

The 2nd version is not "he knew yet accepted to coach him" : no, as you say, it's impossible as he would know these awful consequences.

No my second version is "he knew AND was involved" : their relation had started some time ago, and Canas was involved into that idea. Unfortunately for them, Odesnik was caught at the customs.

After that, and if you're involved, it's not easy just to say "I didn't do anything" and let the player manage oneself : actually if that's the truth, then Canas can be really afraid of Odesnik ;)

I hope now you understand better what I mean :shrug:

These are the only two plausible versions imo.

I was aware of your two versions ;)

I'm going with the first version and not because I like Willy.
The second version would imply such amateurism that makes it almost impossible... Nobody with common sense would take such a risk

Nathaliia
03-29-2010, 06:55 PM
This is sport, such things like partners in crime happen widely. In PL there's a loud case of a cross country skiier Kornelia Marek who is basically shit yet was caught on EPO and the whole team was involved yet nobody knows what was in the injections including the skiier herself. Piece of junk, really.

duong
03-29-2010, 10:24 PM
I was aware of your two versions ;)

I'm going with the first version and not because I like Willy.
The second version would imply such amateurism that makes it almost impossible... Nobody with common sense would take such a risk

why would it be amateurism ? rather risk :shrug:

The fact is that he was caught by the customs, I would rather say it's unlucky as I don't think he's the only one who does it ;)

If he hadn't been caught, and as HGH is undetectable by tests from what I read, it might also have been considered as "clever".

There was a risk, and he was caught, that's all we can say :shrug:

Some people who have been punished after taking a risk take another risk later, that's quite common :shrug:

Action Jackson
03-30-2010, 12:49 AM
Wayne will get 2 years, as one he is small fry, two most importantly he was caught with HGH and it will be very hard for him to get off these charges.

As for Cañas, like it's going to make good business sense to get knowingly involved with something like this, especially when attempting to establish an academy.

dylan24
04-05-2010, 04:58 AM
odesnik is playing in houston on monday.
so when does he get suspended? atp administartion a little slow???

Action Jackson
04-05-2010, 05:53 AM
Seems like he is free to play until the hearing of the case comes around.

andy neyer
04-05-2010, 06:22 AM
Poor guy. He'll most likely get 2 years but I wish he'd receive a more gentle conviction.

Fee
04-05-2010, 06:33 AM
odesnik is playing in houston on monday.
so when does he get suspended? atp administartion a little slow???

It's not automatic, each player is entitled to a full process and that process takes time. Obviously the ITF/ATP told him he is allowed to play until he is told not to and he decided to show up and defend his points. Takes some amount of guts to put himself out in public like that, especially since they could very well take away whatever money and points he might earn this week.

Consigliere
04-05-2010, 08:16 AM
mmmmmm, pimply man back.

l_mac
04-05-2010, 12:40 PM
What a help these PEDs are for tennis players. Just goes to show all a player needs is a couple of needles and he is set.

Odesnik would never have broken the Top 20 without them!

Cloudygirl
04-05-2010, 12:59 PM
Are there actual itf sanctions about possession of these substances? If he hasn't tested positive for anything can they even do anything.

anon57
04-05-2010, 01:20 PM
Are there actual itf sanctions about possession of these substances? If he hasn't tested positive for anything can they even do anything.
From the ITF Anti-doping rules:
C. Anti-doping rule violations
Doping is defined as the occurrence of one or more of the following (each, an “antidoping
rule violation”)
C.6 Possession of Prohibited Substances and/or Prohibited Methods:
C.6.1 Possession by a Player at any time or place of a substance that is
prohibited at all times or of a Prohibited Method is an anti-doping rule
violation under Article C.6, unless the Player establishes that such
Possession is consistent with a therapeutic use exemption granted in
accordance with Article E or other acceptable justification
C.7 Trafficking or Attempted Trafficking in any Prohibited Substance or
Prohibited Method. I'm sure the actual sanctions are in the document somewhere as well but I didn't feel like going through all 263 pages:o
source:http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_46169_original.PDF

Jelena
04-05-2010, 01:55 PM
From the ITF Anti-doping rules:
I'm sure the actual sanctions are in the document somewhere as well but I didn't feel like going through all 263 pages:o
source:http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_46169_original.PDF
I'm quite sure (also without reading the whole document) that the sanction depends on the substance you used/possessed. As HGH is usually sanctioned with 2 years if detected in the body, I fear 2 years will be the sanction for possessing it.

Snoo Foo
04-05-2010, 02:02 PM
Takes some amount of guts to put himself out in public like that, especially since they could very well take away whatever money and points he might earn this week.

what a hero :yeah:

l_mac
04-05-2010, 02:02 PM
I'm quite sure (also without reading the whole document) that the sanction depends on the substance you used/possessed. As HGH is usually sanctioned with 2 years if detected in the body, I fear 2 years will be the sanction for possessing it.

You fear? Aren't you usually crazy about doping? Does it depend on the player? :lol:

edited: not a hypocrite, I just misunderstood your meaning. I like consistency.

Jelena
04-05-2010, 02:22 PM
You fear? Aren't you usually crazy about doping? Does it depend on the player? :lol: What a hypocrite.
:rolleyes: I don't like dope at all. Period. Maybe I should have written "I fear (for him)..." to match into Linda's roster, but I'm 1000% for it that he is to be taken out. ;)

l_mac
04-05-2010, 02:22 PM
:rolleyes: I don't like dope at all. Period. Maybe I should have written "I fear (for him)..." to match into Linda's roster, but I'm 1000% for it that he is to be taken out. ;)

Fair enough ;)

Fee
04-05-2010, 05:54 PM
what a hero :yeah:

I don't think it's heroic, I think it's kind of oblivious. But I guess he has to make a living and defend his points. I don't think I could do what he's chosen to do this week (then again, I wouldn't ever have HGH within 10 feet of me either).

duong
04-05-2010, 06:14 PM
I don't think it's heroic, I think it's kind of oblivious. But I guess he has to make a living and defend his points. I don't think I could do what he's chosen to do this week (then again, I wouldn't ever have HGH within 10 feet of me either).

Anyway, as you said he will very likely be taken off all of the points and money he got in Houston :shrug:

but well, what you do in those cases is very personal decision.

By the way, the ITF is the organization allowed to decide, not the ATP.

Start da Game
04-05-2010, 06:55 PM
we will ask agassi's opinion........

Ad Wim
04-05-2010, 10:06 PM
I don't think it's heroic, I think it's kind of oblivious. But I guess he has to make a living and defend his points. I don't think I could do what he's chosen to do this week (then again, I wouldn't ever have HGH within 10 feet of me either).

I don't think that even 5% of the spectators in Houston know this about him. I think they will just cheer for him this week.

Henry Chinaski
04-05-2010, 10:28 PM
I don't think it's heroic, I think it's kind of oblivious. But I guess he has to make a living and defend his points. I don't think I could do what he's chosen to do this week (then again, I wouldn't ever have HGH within 10 feet of me either).

Doubt it's oblivious. he'll have read all the comments about him from fellow pros in the media and know he's going to be persona non grata for a while...

Deboogle!.
04-06-2010, 12:56 AM
Houston reporter Dale Robertson was at Odesnik's press conference today: http://twitter.com/sptdlr

guess we can expect a statement tomorrow, he refused to talk about it today

DualMedia
04-06-2010, 01:00 AM
I am disappointed in houston for allowing him to play at the tourney.

Deboogle!.
04-06-2010, 01:03 AM
I am disappointed in houston for allowing him to play at the tourney.I don't think the event has a choice?

Action Jackson
04-06-2010, 05:48 AM
Not exactly sure how much Odesnik is going to say about an ongoing investigation.

l_mac
04-06-2010, 04:04 PM
From that reporter's twitter:Janowicz on Odesnik: "I think he shouldn’t play at this point. He for sure should be suspended."

More Janowicz: “I will ask if he can borrow me some kind of stuff that he’s using.” Ouch.

Mardy Fish unloaded on Odesnik, too. Said he should quit the tournament and go home.

:o

JMG
04-06-2010, 04:28 PM
Roddick called him a jackass. :rolleyes:

Roamed
04-06-2010, 04:47 PM
@TennisReporters
Wow - Odesnik hires high powered Miami defense attorney Christopher Lyons, who also defended Donte Stallworth and Warren Sapp

scoobs
04-06-2010, 04:56 PM
It's kinda ridiculous that he's allowed to play on while all this goes on, but then you have people like Malisse and Wickmayer who were suspended for failing to report whereabouts three times for a possible drug test.

It's not exactly a coherent system is it.

Jelena
04-06-2010, 05:06 PM
It's kinda ridiculous that he's allowed to play on while all this goes on, but then you have people like Malisse and Wickmayer who were suspended for failing to report whereabouts three times for a possible drug test.

It's not exactly a coherent system is it.
It was the same with Cañas and Puerta. They also played until the stuff was over. But then they had to return all the prize money they earned in the time between the doping case and their suspension.

Fee
04-06-2010, 07:31 PM
It's kinda ridiculous that he's allowed to play on while all this goes on, but then you have people like Malisse and Wickmayer who were suspended for failing to report whereabouts three times for a possible drug test.

It's not exactly a coherent system is it.

I suspect a rule change will be put in place, if you plead guilty or are found guilty outside of tennis a player will be suspended within tennis until further notice. Right now, the rules of the process allow him to play.

Henry Chinaski
04-06-2010, 08:46 PM
@TennisReporters
Wow - Odesnik hires high powered Miami defense attorney Christopher Lyons, who also defended Donte Stallworth and Warren Sapp

His Dad is a jeweller. Probably left South Africa with millions of blood money

duong
04-06-2010, 09:14 PM
It's kinda ridiculous that he's allowed to play on while all this goes on, but then you have people like Malisse and Wickmayer who were suspended for failing to report whereabouts three times for a possible drug test.

It's not exactly a coherent system is it.

it's not so simple because people are claiming scandal because they've got the news by the press already.

For Malisse and Wickmayer, both had known the difficultu for long, but only when they were suspended that the public knew about that.

Time of press and time of justice are not necessarily the same :shrug:

Anyway, I think that Janowicz's words are ridiculous :rolleyes: it's not as if he had met Ben Johnson on 100 m :lol: , he would have lost to many other players anyway

Deboogle!.
04-06-2010, 09:20 PM
Scathing column by Greg Couch
http://tennis.fanhouse.com/2010/04/06/tennis-authorities-must-be-on-drugs-to-let-odesnik-play/

Fee
04-06-2010, 09:26 PM
Scathing column by Greg Couch
http://tennis.fanhouse.com/2010/04/06/tennis-authorities-must-be-on-drugs-to-let-odesnik-play/

He could have done a little bit more research, both the ITF and ATP rulebooks are online. He sounds too lazy to read them. Aside from that, he made a valid point about the confusing nature of the different cases.

-Valhalla-
04-06-2010, 09:27 PM
Scathing column by Greg Couch
http://tennis.fanhouse.com/2010/04/06/tennis-authorities-must-be-on-drugs-to-let-odesnik-play/

"Tennis Authorities Must Be on Drugs to Let Odesnik Play."

I concur with Couch. This is an outrage.

Jelena
04-06-2010, 09:35 PM
"Tennis Authorities Must Be on Drugs to Let Odesnik Play."

I concur with Couch. This is an outrage.
We may concur with him, but if the rulebooks of ATP and ITF allow Odesnik to play he is allowed to play. It doesn't matter in that case if we like it or not. There has to be a rulebook change to disallow him to play. I already said earlier that Cañas and Puerta were also allowed to play until their case was finally decided. But then they had to pay back all the prize money they earned in the time between the doping case and the finish of the investigation and the decision. This is what Odesnik will face also.

Black Adam
04-06-2010, 09:35 PM
Roddick called him a jackass. :rolleyes:
Get a life. What's wrong with stating facts?

It's not like he has priors like Canas, Coria, Puerta, Beck etc. There's nothing hypocrite about him calling a Spade a Spade.

duong
04-06-2010, 10:01 PM
We may concur with him, but if the rulebooks of ATP and ITF allow Odesnik to play he is allowed to play. It doesn't matter in that case if we like it or not. There has to be a rulebook change to disallow him to play. I already said earlier that Cañas and Puerta were also allowed to play until their case was finally decided. But then they had to pay back all the prize money they earned in the time between the doping case and the finish of the investigation and the decision. This is what Odesnik will face also.

I think Gasquet was suspended "temporarily" even before his case was judged by the ITF tribunal (it was judged actually only in july but he could not play already from Roma)

But anyway I don't find it abnormal that one has to be judged before being sentenced, even if here he pled guilty, which makes the case more obvious.

Deboogle!.
04-06-2010, 10:03 PM
We may concur with him, but if the rulebooks of ATP and ITF allow Odesnik to play he is allowed to play. It doesn't matter in that case if we like it or not. But Greg Couch is a journalist, it's his job to question things like this. So, that's all he's saying, that the rulebooks are stupid and wrong. I don't know much about him (the writer) but he has posted a ton of pretty scathing/outspoken articles lately about many topics.

Anyway, Odesnik apparently released his statement, denying he used HGH or anything else
http://twitter.com/TennisReporters/status/11720729113

duong
04-06-2010, 10:09 PM
But Greg Couch is a journalist, it's his job to question things like this. So, that's all he's saying, that the rulebooks are stupid and wrong.

yes as you say it, the job of journalists is saying same bullshits, often about topics we don't know, the same as we do on forums, but being free to be heard by many people ;)

Documenting, thinking, weighting this and this doesn't seem to be in their job anymore.

yes that's modern journalists :lol:

DualMedia
04-06-2010, 10:23 PM
they should think of the case like this: if you are found with drugs, dont you get in trouble for possesion? (in the normal world) as a athlete, if you are caugth with "drugs or other illegal supstances" aren't you going to get banned from tennis until you are innocent.

Sometime I wish the ITF would stop playing games, just ban the fool and get on with their lives.

Snoo Foo
04-06-2010, 10:30 PM
the minimum ban for 1st time offenders for possession is 2 years (same as for using), but the minimum ban for trafficking (which i think is what smuggling is, which he was guilty of) is 4 years

Deboogle!.
04-06-2010, 10:31 PM
yes as you say it, the job of journalists is saying same bullshits, often about topics we don't know, the same as we do on forums, but being free to be heard by many people ;)

Documenting, thinking, weighting this and this doesn't seem to be in their job anymore.

yes that's modern journalists :lol:Not that I disagree with you but as I read more of Greg Couch's stuff, I actually like him more and more. He's honest and says things other journalists seem to refuse to say or aren't allowed to say by their parent publications or are afraid to say because they want to remain friendly with players. His piece on the Sampras/Agassi spat at IW was also pretty scathing. So at least for his willingness to go out of the box, I applaud him. Maybe he's saying the same thing we know here on a board dedicated to huge tennis fans, but I bet a lot of people in the general public don't know most of this.

duong
04-07-2010, 06:34 AM
they should think of the case like this: if you are found with drugs, dont you get in trouble for possesion? (in the normal world) as a athlete, if you are caugth with "drugs or other illegal supstances" aren't you going to get banned from tennis until you are innocent.

Sometime I wish the ITF would stop playing games, just ban the fool and get on with their lives.

it's not about "games" : there are rules and you have to respect them :shrug:

in the "normal world" many people make offenses but stay free to practise their job until judgment.

Everyone is entitled to a fair judgment.

What's strange yet is that Gasquet was suspended at once and remember that even if he was judged as innocent in the end, he still had 2 months and a half suspension in the end ... mainly because the ITF had caught that decision of a "provisional suspension" in that beginning.

Maybe they've taken the consequence of that error now : people may be innocent even if the apparences are against them, and then you have to have good enough charges to give a "provisional sentence".

Of course the fact that he pled guilty in the beginning might be considered as a good enough charge.

Truc
04-07-2010, 06:37 AM
There's nothing strange about it, it was exactly the same with Gasquet, the difference is that he chose to serve the provisional suspension, while Odesnik (and a lot of players in this situation) chose not to.
When people say they prevented Gasquet from playing RG and Wimbledon, it's not true, he could totally have played, it was his decision to accept the suspension.

duong
04-07-2010, 06:43 AM
There's nothing strange about it, it was exactly the same with Gasquet, the difference is that he chose to serve the provisional suspension, while Odesnik (and a lot of players in this situation) chose not to.
When people say they prevented Gasquet from playing RG and Wimbledon, it's not true, he could totally have played, it was his decision to accept the suspension.

I don't precisely understand, please precise for me : was there or not a provisional suspension pronounced by a tennis organization as we heard in the press ?

I mean was there nothing at all (Gasquet just suspended himself) or was there just something that you could not respect as your post may let think ?

Truc
04-07-2010, 06:50 AM
And I don't get what you don't understand...
He didn't "suspend himself", there was a suspension, but it was a provisional suspension and he could have said "no, I keep playing since I'm innocent". He chose to not exercise this right.
It was said very clearly in the French media at the time.

duong
04-07-2010, 06:54 AM
And I don't get what you don't understand...
He didn't "suspend himself", there was a suspension, but it was a provisional suspension and he could have said "no, I keep playing since I'm innocent". He chose to not exercise this right.
It was said very clearly in the French media at the time.

you explained it precisely now : but I've never heard of any such law decision which has no restraining value :confused:

what's the purpose of pronouncing a decision if the player just can choose not to respect it as he likes ? :confused:

oranges
04-07-2010, 08:25 AM
you explained it precisely now : but I've never heard of any such law decision which has no restraining value :confused:

what's the purpose of pronouncing a decision if the player just can choose not to respect it as he likes ? :confused:

I presume the purpose is to serve as grounds for demanding prize money back and deducting points won if the suspension is confirmed.

I didn't know he had an option, but in retrospect, the decision is understandable, hard to focus on matches with all of it going on.

scoobs
04-07-2010, 08:30 AM
Scathing column by Greg Couch
http://tennis.fanhouse.com/2010/04/06/tennis-authorities-must-be-on-drugs-to-let-odesnik-play/
Amen.

Deboogle!.
04-07-2010, 08:36 PM
:eek: he is PISSED.
http://www.tennischannel.com/news/NewsDetails.aspx?newsid=7228

LaRosa's Sweet Spot: Apr 7, 2010
4/7/2010 4:00:00 PM

Dear Wayne Odesnik,

You don't know me. Truth is, I don't really know you. And yet here we are.

By now, most people have heard you pleaded guilty to possession of HGH, a performance enhancer which Aussie airport security plucked from your suitcase in January.

People may also have read your official statement on the matter, released through your lawyer yesterday:

"The ITF is presently conducting an investigation of me regarding my possession of HGH while in Australia earlier this year. I have never used nor taken HGH or any other banned substance in my life. I am fully cooperating with their investigation and I will have no further comment on the matter until it is concluded.”

I have a comment.

HOW COULD YOU BE SO STUPID?! HOW COULD YOU THINK WE'RE THAT STUPID?? I MEAN SERIOUSLY, YOU WERE, WHAT, HOLDING IT FOR A FRIEND? YOU SPEARHEADED AN INTERVENTION FOR A FELLOW PLAYER WHO YOU HELD IN YOUR ARMS ROCKING HIM BACK AND FORTH IN THE SHOWER FULLY CLOTHED UNTIL YOU CONVINCED HIM TO FINALLY QUIT THE JUNK AND HAND OVER HIS STASH TO YOU, ALL EN ROUTE TO THE AIRPORT?!

I'm so sorry. I've been so wound up about this, I really have no right to yell at you. You're still a human being, and probably a really nice guy. You seemed like a nice guy after your win over Guillermo Canas at the '08 French Open, you know the back-to-back-to-back tiebreak thriller that had everyone at that tiny back court on their feet? The one where Corina Morariu interviewed you afterwards, you were beaming, she was beaming, we were all beaming, at this underdog, this American player who made good on the clay (clay!) of Paris?

SMILING LIKE IDIOTS! HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO KNOW IF THAT WAS EVEN LEGIT?! HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO KNOW IF ANY OF YOUR WINS WERE LEGIT?! JUAN MARTIN DEL POTRO IN WASHINGTON, IVAN LJUBICIC IN CANADA, MARCOS BAGHDATIS IN INDIANAPOLIS, JOHN ISNER LAST YEAR IN HOUSTON?! ALL THOSE TIMES I THOUGHT, GO WAYNE! NOW WE'LL NEVER KNOW WHAT WAS YOU AND WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN 'SOMETHING ELSE', AND THAT SUCKS! IT SUCKS OUT LOUD!

Whew. I really don't know what's gotten into me. Maybe it's the fact that you're still playing. Wild as it may seem, the ITF is refusing to yank you from the tour. Which is super awkward for me. I've come down hard on the ITF in the past for jumping the gun on cases like Yanina Wickmayer and Xavier Malisse, who they leapt to ban before their cases could truly be heard. Now the ITF is taking that breath and allowing you to play and I have to sort of suck it up and say, okay, you asked for due diligence. You've got it.

BUT YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO PLAY HOUSTON THIS WEEK WAYNE! NO ONE PUT A GUN TO YOUR HEAD AND SAID, DUDE, GET OUT THERE AND STEAL SOMEONE ELSE'S POINTS! OR THEIR PRIZE MONEY! I MEAN, YOU'VE MADE OVER $800GS IN THE LAST COUPLE YEARS, YOU KNOW HOW MUCH JERZY JANOWICZ, THE GUY YOU BEAT IN THE FIRST ROUND OF HOUSTON THIS WEEK, MADE?! $71,663. IN TWO AND A HALF YEARS. THAT'S ABOUT $30G A YEAR, BEFORE TAXES. HE COULD'VE USED THE DOUGH WAYNE! AND NOT TO BUY HGH!

Wow. I'm so not this guy. I just have this thing about cheating. And no one's saying you used. Certainly not you. Don't all people carry around human growth hormone in their luggage? Or their lunch box, or in their glove compartment? It's a conversation piece.

You'll keep playing. No one can stop you. Except on the court. And I certainly won't root against you when you take on your next opponent, Mikhail Kukushkin. In fact, I hope you make it through, I really do.

SO JOHN ISNER CAN EXACT SOME REVENGE FROM LAST YEAR AND BLOW YOU OFF THE COURT! AND HE'S AMERICAN, SO HE'D ALSO REALLY ENJOY SHOWING YOU HOW HE AND HIS FELLOW PLAYERS AND ALL OF US FEEL ABOUT YOUR STINKING UP U.S. TENNIS'S REP WITH THIS HGH BS!

Excuse me, had to towel off after that one. So embarrassed. Anyway, my one comfort in all of this is knowing that, and I'm not trying to be mean Wayne - again you seem to actually be a nice guy - no one really knows who you are enough to perhaps even care about any of this. So no one will click on the name "Wayne Odesnik" and see just what kind of anger management problems I have.

Actually, I have another comfort. Even if you never touched the junk, simple possession is a two year ban. So my anger, like your pro career, is living on borrowed time.

Still, I hope this serves as a lesson. Sincerely. To other players who think they can get away with this. And to you. You made a bad decision, but you're not a monster. You have some heat to take now. Man up and take it. My hope is for you to come back strong after your ban, to admit bad choices and show what it's like to learn from them. That's something truly worth putting you on the map.

Ultimately, and this goes out to anyone who thinks they need to "possess" a little sumthin sumthin to compete on tour: If you can't get your rank as high as you want it without a little help, maybe tennis isn't for you.

James LaRosa

Cloudygirl
04-07-2010, 08:39 PM
Am very intrigued as to what his legal argument is going to be.

Snoo Foo
04-07-2010, 08:43 PM
:speakles: wow :speakles:



http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc179/SnooFoo828/emoticon/laughing021.gif

Snoo Foo
04-07-2010, 08:46 PM
Am very intrigued as to what his legal argument is going to be.

his legal argument was "guilty"

yeah i don't know if the itf is going to buy girl named pamela secretly slipping it into his suitcase using her mouth while he obliviously sipped his vodka and apple juice on the baggage check line

Deboogle!.
04-07-2010, 08:49 PM
Am very intrigued as to what his legal argument is going to be.Who knows, perhaps he is going to strike a deal so to speak and not even try to deny it. We do not know yet. One would assume, however, that pleading guilty in an Australian court would make it pretty hard to wiggle out of an ITF punishment. Maybe he *will* just man up to what he did, accept the consequences, and move on? We can hope.

star
04-07-2010, 08:50 PM
.

Everyone is entitled to a fair judgment.




He had a fair judgment. He admitted to having HGH in his possession. How much more process does he need?

Snoo Foo
04-07-2010, 08:52 PM
maybe he will name names in exchange for leniency :aplot:

if he doesn't eat some kind of a fuckin ban this alleged anti-doping programme is even more verkokt that i could've ever imagined

star
04-07-2010, 08:56 PM
maybe he will name names in exchange for leniency :aplot:

if he doesn't eat some kind of a fuckin ban this alleged anti-doping programme is even more verkokt that i could've ever imagined

Well, after they believed somebody tested positive for cocaine because of kissing, I didn't think there could be anything more vercacaded. But now that they can't give out a ban to someone who has ADMITTED to HGH posession, I guess there is something more.

star
04-07-2010, 09:01 PM
Wayne mostly travels alone and on a pretty tight budget. He got very little support from the USTA so yeah, he was probably traveling alone.

So, he made $800,000 over the last two 1/2 years. Hardly a shoe string budget. Even if one give over half of that for traveling expenses (which in this case are tax deductible), that still means 400,000. Not so bad.

Then since he never ever used HGH, one would have to assume, he's dealing it or being a courier. Either way that adds to his income. :p

Ad Wim
04-07-2010, 09:01 PM
Lol, what a douche this LaRosa :lol:

philosophicalarf
04-07-2010, 09:06 PM
Am very intrigued as to what his legal argument is going to be.

"An Argentine friend of mine asked me to carry a package for him....."

star
04-07-2010, 09:06 PM
his legal argument was "guilty"

yeah i don't know if the itf is going to buy girl named pamela secretly slipping it into his suitcase using her mouth while he obliviously sipped his vodka and apple juice on the baggage check line

Nobody's going to believe that happened to someone not French.

Snoo Foo
04-07-2010, 09:07 PM
So, he made $800,000 over the last two 1/2 years. Hardly a shoe string budget. Even if one give over half of that for traveling expenses (which in this case are tax deductible), that still means 400,000. Not so bad.

:rolleyes: pffft, he will have nothing left of that after he pays his lawyer

star
04-07-2010, 09:08 PM
"An Argentine friend of mine asked me to carry a package for him....."

A friend whose name he can't remember.

star
04-07-2010, 09:09 PM
:rolleyes: pffft, he will have nothing left of that after he pays his lawyer


That may be, but he wasn't exactly hurting for money before.

JMG
04-07-2010, 09:10 PM
Janowicz is not really a victim this week. :lol: He got a(n undeserved) wildcard and free money for the first round. He would have likely lost to any other player in the draw.

Black Adam
04-07-2010, 09:14 PM
"An Argentine friend of mine asked me to carry a package for him....."
Given history of doping in tennis and football, he could actually get away with it.

Deboogle!.
04-07-2010, 09:19 PM
Janowicz is not really a victim this week. :lol: He got a(n undeserved) wildcard and free money for the first round. He would have likely lost to any other player in the draw.That may well be true, but that doesn't mean it's fair for him to lose to a cheater.

star
04-07-2010, 10:01 PM
Janowicz is not really a victim this week. :lol: He got a(n undeserved) wildcard and free money for the first round. He would have likely lost to any other player in the draw.

But he still wouldn't have lost to Odesnik, and that's what rankles.

Not sure why you claim the wild card is undeserved.

tangerine_dream
04-07-2010, 10:34 PM
Ultimately, and this goes out to anyone who thinks they need to "possess" a little sumthin sumthin to compete on tour: If you can't get your rank as high as you want it without a little help, maybe tennis isn't for you.
Or, if you're a drug cheat and you still suck then tennis is definitely not for you.

scoobs
04-07-2010, 10:55 PM
This is ridiculous.

He's been before a court and pled guilty, what exactly is the part of the due process that suspending him immediately would have violated?

Deboogle!.
04-07-2010, 11:46 PM
This is ridiculous.

He's been before a court and pled guilty, what exactly is the part of the due process that suspending him immediately would have violated?I totally agree that there should be some kind of "fast track" element to the ITF investigation should there be a separate court proceeding that makes the ITF result clear (especially since this seems to be a possession case, not a failed drug test case). I haven't read the rules, so I don't know if there's something that says "should the player plead guilty to the offense in a court of law, blahblahblah..." Otherwise, it kind of seems like it doesn't quite matter that he plead guilty in court.

So, for whatever silly reason, it seems as though the ITF keeps its investigation completely separate from any criminal proceeding. For whatever reason, it also waited until the Australian court proceeding was completely finished before beginning its own. The due process is the fact that he is apparently "innocent" until the ITF investigation proves him "guilty" under the ITF/WADA code, and as such he is allowed to play unless he chooses to take a provisional suspension (which he clearly didn't do).

And I guess it all makes sense from a consistency factor, however frustrating it might be. If the ITF is going to conduct its own separate investigation, and if there's nothing in the ITF/WADA rules that allow them to ban someone based on an independent court proceeding, then they can't really immediately ban him based on said court proceeding, right? They kind of have to allow him to present his own 'defense' under the ITF's procedures and if the ITF rules allow a player to play while that is ongoing, then that's what they have to allow him to do. So to deny him that would be to deny his due process, under the ITF rules anyway.

Ideally, the ITF investigation would have begun as soon as the Australian customs people informed the ITF about him being caught. After all, if the ITF decision wasn't dependent on the outcome of his court proceeding (which, by the fact that he was not immediately banned after his guilty plea, seems to be the case), I don't understand why the ITF had to wait.

Fee
04-08-2010, 12:05 AM
So, he made $800,000 over the last two 1/2 years. Hardly a shoe string budget. Even if one give over half of that for traveling expenses (which in this case are tax deductible), that still means 400,000. Not so bad.

Then since he never ever used HGH, one would have to assume, he's dealing it or being a courier. Either way that adds to his income. :p

Except for the debt he might have had to pay off to cover his first few years on tour when he wasn't making money. I first met Wayne in 2005 and he didn't seem that well off to me. I think that was the year he was trying to go play in South Korea a few weeks later and he told me that air fare was killing him, it was the worst and hardest part of playing the circuit. I showed him some of the travel websites I used to search for cheap tickets. One of the other players had to tell him how to get the visa to even enter the country to play. He was a bit lost, trying to do so much of the 'stuff' on his own, no agent or coach.

Fee
04-08-2010, 12:10 AM
The statement from the ITF, as posted in Wertheim's mailbag today:

Here's Barbara Travers, at the ITF:

"Wayne Odesnik is entitled to due process under the Tennis Anti-Doping Program, just as you and I are entitled to this protection under our legal systems. He has not as yet been found guilty of a doping offense under the rules of the TADP and therefore is allowed to play. In order not to prejudice the player's ability to defend himself in his criminal case, the TADP decided to await the outcome of those proceedings rather than run concurrently, but began the process immediately once the decision of the Australian Court was taken. The player is entitled to put forward a defense and this can take some time and he has elected not to take a provisional suspension. Whether or not we feel this is good for the image of tennis, he has that right and the ITF and ATP have an obligation to honor it. Again the TADP affords every player the right of due process. We believe that this is in the long-term best interests of everyone concerned."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jon_wertheim/04/07/odesnik-hgh/index.html


This is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I'm glad to see the ITF following procedures and I can understand their decision to let the Aussie case play out before starting their process. Remember, these safeguards exist to protect the innocent, not the guilty, but they must be applied equally to the guilty in order to protect the innocent.

It was up to Wayne to make the decision not to play this week, and for whatever reason, he chose not to (not a surprise, right, since he was dumb enough to get caught with the stuff in the first place). So he will suffer the consequences of having his peers shun him and speak out to the press. It's his consequence, let him deal with it.

I can't see any way he gets out of a two year ban, unless there really are names to be named. I shudder to think how ugly that scenario would get.

duong
04-08-2010, 05:46 AM
This is ridiculous.

He's been before a court and pled guilty, what exactly is the part of the due process that suspending him immediately would have violated?

Fortunately Deboogle and Fee remind how law goes on in the normal world, but anyway we're not entitled here on this website to judge and we don't even have enough information for that.

He pled guilty in Australia for one precise offense to Australian customs law : you don't even know which one it is precisely

The ITF pursues him for another offense.

Even though you're all right about the appearances, I'm glad that people are not only judged on appearances.

He will very likely be banned in the end, if people on forums are not patient enough, I don't think it's a big problem :lol:

Jelena
04-08-2010, 07:31 AM
Fortunately Deboogle and Fee remind how law goes on in the normal world, but anyway we're not entitled here on this website to judge and we don't even have enough information for that.

He pled guilty in Australia for one precise offense to Australian customs law : you don't even know which one it is precisely

The ITF pursues him for another offense.

Even though you're all right about the appearances, I'm glad that people are not only judged on appearances.

He will very likely be banned in the end, if people on forums are not patient enough, I don't think it's a big problem :lol:
Taken of the thread opening article: "Wayne Odesnik, an American tennis player ranked No. 98, pleaded guilty Friday to importing human growth hormone into Australia before a tournament leading to the Australian Open."
We know what he pleaded guilty for. ;) And importing HGH implies possessing HGH, which is forbidden by the ATP and ITF rules. So as he pleaded guilty for importing it it should be possible to ban him faster than the usual months-ongoing process it takes by ITF and ATP. They should add a new article to their rulebook imo to speed up cases like this one. I'm not telling you shouldn't have the possibility to argument before you are banned, but in this special case Odesnik pleaded guilty to something that is already forbidden by the rules. For this special cases the new article is needed.

duong
04-08-2010, 08:44 AM
Taken of the thread opening article: "Wayne Odesnik, an American tennis player ranked No. 98, pleaded guilty Friday to importing human growth hormone into Australia before a tournament leading to the Australian Open.".
We know what he pleaded guilty for. ;)

I don't know what pleading guilty for that exactly means for Australian law : if he means that yes he admitted he had HGH in his suitcase, or if it means that he intendedly did it.

I mean I understand that the appearances are very strongly against him, but cases of people getting drugs hidden in their suitcases without them knowing it, actually happen quite often in the world.

I don't say it's his case, I just say that this kind of shit happens in the world, and if ever it happens to YOU you will be relieved enough if you're entitled to defend yourself.


And importing HGH implies possessing HGH, which is forbidden by the ATP and ITF rules. So as he pleaded guilty for importing it it should be possible to ban him faster than the usual months-ongoing process it takes by ITF and ATP. They should add a new article to their rulebook imo to speed up cases like this one. I'm not telling you shouldn't have the possibility to argument before you are banned, but in this special case Odesnik pleaded guilty to something that is already forbidden by the rules. For this special cases the new article is needed.

I don't know anything about that peculiar case, I'm like you and others here, but I can only give a general opinion about this kind of cases.

Odesnik is not a danger for "public order" in that case, no terrorism or else.

There are some players who are beaten yes, but well nobody knows if they would have beaten another player.

The main danger here is the danger for "public opinion", and it's a fact that more and more often this kind of decisions are led by public opinion.

It's up to the ITF : probably to avoid public opinion's contestation, they will add that article.

It's always a matter of weighting people's rights and public opinion's requirements. The weight of the latter gets bigger and bigger with time, for business or political concerns. I generally don't think it's a good thing.

scoobs
04-08-2010, 09:01 AM
Fortunately Deboogle and Fee remind how law goes on in the normal world, but anyway we're not entitled here on this website to judge and we don't even have enough information for that.

He pled guilty in Australia for one precise offense to Australian customs law : you don't even know which one it is precisely

The ITF pursues him for another offense.

Even though you're all right about the appearances, I'm glad that people are not only judged on appearances.

He will very likely be banned in the end, if people on forums are not patient enough, I don't think it's a big problem :lol:
We are entitled to have opinions even if they don't carry legal weight.

It just seems to me that there is a ridiculous disconnect here. I'm not saying Odesnik is not entitled to his legal rights under due process, but it seems to me that pleading guilty or being convicted of an offence that is clearly related to your job as a tennis player - like importing HGH into the country - in an actual real court of law - there needs to be something under the ATP and/or ITF that puts judgements likes that above their own procedures - insofar as that a judgement like that means the player in question is automatically suspended pending their own investigation. They can do their own investigation, fine, they can do their own due process, but when a player pled guilty in court to an offence they are investigating, suspension HAS to be automatic, otherwise the impression this give of the SPORT overall is appalling.

Snoo Foo
04-08-2010, 09:25 AM
how law goes on in the normal world

yes, cuz in the normal world, if a chef pleaded guilty in court to poisoning diners, the restaurant where he worked would have no choice but to say, well, he's entitled to due process so we can't suspend him until we've conducted our own investigation, and in the normal world, if a tax lawyer pleaded guilty to falsifying tax documents, the firm where he works would have to say, oh but he's entitled to due process so we can't suspend him until we've conducted our own investigation

duong
04-08-2010, 09:57 AM
We are entitled to have opinions even if they don't carry legal weight.

How often will I receive that answer ? :eek: :mad:

Am I such a danger for others' opinions that you feel obliged to say that ?

Did I ever imply that people should be forbidden their own opinions ? :shrug:

My purpose here is only to explain that when some people are accused of something, they are sometimes glad that they're not judged by public opinion judging appearances but by lawyers who investigate the case in detail.

I know it's very hard to understand for the people who have never been concerned by that. That's the only reason why I explain it.
But if ever it happened to you, you would understand.


They can do their own investigation, fine, they can do their own due process, but when a player pled guilty in court to an offence they are investigating, suspension HAS to be automatic, otherwise the impression this give of the SPORT overall is appalling.

(part in dark) I don't know if it's the case.

yes, cuz in the normal world, if a chef pleaded guilty in court to poisoning diners, the restaurant where he worked would have no choice but to say, well, he's entitled to due process so we can't suspend him until we've conducted our own investigation, and in the normal world, if a tax lawyer pleaded guilty to falsifying tax documents, the firm where he works would have to say, oh but he's entitled to due process so we can't suspend him until we've conducted our own investigation

in the normal world, law has a lot of problems (esp in the USA if you want my opinion),

but anyway I don't think its improvements should only be led by public opinion.

And anyway there's no reason why tennis should be a specific matter.

But as your examples mean ... busines like politics, has its own concerns which are different from law and justice, and are far more concerned about public opinion.

And tennis is a business ;)

Now all that is my opinion : PLEASE DON'T TELL ME AGAIN THAT YOU'RE ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN OPINION, I NEVER INTENDED TO FORBID THAT RIGHT FROM YOU :worship:

Snoo Foo
04-08-2010, 10:04 AM
My purpose here is only to explain that when some people are accused of something, they are sometimes glad that they're not judged by public opinion judging appearances but by lawyers who investigate the case in detail.

he was not judged by public opinion, or even by a judge, or a jury. he pleaded guilty.

in the normal world, law has a lot of problems (esp in the USA if you want my opinion),

:confused: this happened in australia, australia's laws were broken and he pleaded guilty in an australian court. ITF/ATP are not law enforcement agencies.

Machiavelli
04-08-2010, 10:04 AM
They should ban him for life, drugs/hormones/illegal supstances have nothing to do with tennis....

Remember Goran once saying: let them drug themselves, there is no drug which will help you to have a better serve, volley,dropshot or hit a down the line fh or bh winner; although stamina is important, this is not running or cycling......

Just like heaven
04-08-2010, 10:26 AM
Remember Goran once saying: let them drug themselves, there is no drug which will help you to have a better serve

I think Goran was wrong.

duong
04-08-2010, 11:07 AM
he was not judged by public opinion, or even by a judge, or a jury. he pleaded guilty.

it was not the same offense.

ITF/ATP are not law enforcement agencies.

ITF has jurys to judge antidoping matters.

No other organization will prevent Odesnik to play tennis, including Australian court which doesn't care about tennis :lol:

Snoo Foo
04-08-2010, 11:11 AM
it was not the same offense.

trafficking = smuggling

Snoo Foo
04-08-2010, 11:41 AM
i am really curious to see exactly what wayne pleaded guilty to

K.7 Methods of Establishing Facts and Presumptions:
The Anti-Doping Tribunal shall not be bound by judicial rules governing the
admissibility of evidence. Instead, facts relating to an anti-doping rule
violation may be established by any reliable means, including admissions.
The following rules of proof shall be applicable at the hearing:
...
K.7.4 The facts established by a decision of a court or professional
disciplinary tribunal of competent jurisdiction that is not the subject of
a pending appeal shall be irrebuttable evidence against the Participant
to whom the decision pertained of those facts, unless that Participant
establishes that the decision violated principles of natural justice.

star
04-08-2010, 01:02 PM
it was not the same offense.



ITF has jurys to judge antidoping matters.

No other organization will prevent Odesnik to play tennis, including Australian court which doesn't care about tennis :lol:

It is truly amazing how you go round and round on this. Of course, an Australian court doesn't make decisions about who plays tennis. Everyone knows that. No one claimed they did.

What the rules say is that the ITF can take notice of a judgment in a court of law, (and you must note, this is not simply a judgment, but an admission of having had possession of a banned substance.)

Also, you say it is not the same offense, but possession is also forbidden by the ITF. The offense is possession.

If the ITF cannot suspend a player automatically after an admission of possession of a banned substance,, it should revise it's procedures for the good of the game.

Snoo, has argued the matter very well.

duong
04-08-2010, 01:38 PM
It is truly amazing how you go round and round on this. Of course, an Australian court doesn't make decisions about who plays tennis. Everyone knows that. No one claimed they did.

What the rules say is that the ITF can take notice of a judgment in a court of law, (and you must note, this is not simply a judgment, but an admission of having had possession of a banned substance.)

Also, you say it is not the same offense, but possession is also forbidden by the ITF. The offense is possession.

If the ITF cannot suspend a player automatically after an admission of possession of a banned substance,, it should revise it's procedures for the good of the game.

Snoo, has argued the matter very well.

he pleaded guilty for "introducing HGH in Australia", not for possessing.

As I said previously, there are people in the world who introduce substances in countries, which they didn't know they hd in their baggage.

It happens, I don't say it's Odesnik's case but it happens.

And the explanations why someone pleads guilty and what he pleads guilty exactly for in a country and juridiction which I don't know at all, are not at all accessible to me :shrug:

You also turn round and round with a few others :lol:

As for you personally, I know you don't like tribunals and experts : all these are useless for you. You know better than experts and tribunals who say that one can be positive to cocain tests by kissing. Then I cannot argue with you at all, as I know far less than these :shrug:

oranges
04-08-2010, 01:46 PM
:lol: How on earth would you import an illegal substance without possessing it. The argument didn't know it was in my baggage is gone the minute he pleaded guilty to the offense. For that, he would obviously need to plead not guilty, stand trial and try to prove he was not the one to put it in there and had no idea about it.

Florida
04-08-2010, 01:47 PM
I look forward to the interogation process. Too bad they will not televise it!!!!!! We may hear stories about players involved that we really don't want to hear!!!!! ATP has a lot of undercover cheating with HGH involved...... I know parents of pros that feed their kids HGH just to grow an inch of so taller...........

duong
04-08-2010, 01:50 PM
:lol: How on earth would you import an illegal substance without possessing it. The argument didn't know it was in my baggage is gone the minute he pleaded guilty to the offense. For that, he would obviously need to plead not guilty, stand trial and try to prove he was not the one to put it in there and had no idea about it.

I don't know Australian law system : it's possible that it's better to plead guilty there, even if you hadn't put it in your baggage yourself.

oranges
04-08-2010, 01:56 PM
I don't know Australian law system : it's possible that it's better to plead guilty there, even if you hadn't put it in your baggage yourself.

For the purposes of establishing his guilt or innocence, that is utterly irrelevant. If you want to be treated as innocent, you stand trail and argue your case to be acquitted. If you plead guilty, you're guilty. I really don't see what is it you don't understand or find dubious.

Snoo Foo
04-08-2010, 01:58 PM
he pleaded guilty for "introducing HGH in Australia", not for possessing.

:worship: so he managed to bring it into Australia without possessing it :worship: this is why i am curious to see the court's order or findings of fact or whatever they call it.

M.3.3 For an anti-doping rule violation under Article C.7 (Trafficking or
Attempted Trafficking) or Article C.8 (administration or Attempted
administration, etc.) that is the Participant’s first offence, the period of
Ineligibility imposed shall be a minimum of four (4) years up to
lifetime Ineligibility, unless the conditions specified in Article M.5 are
met.

Trafficking. Selling, giving, administering, transporting, sending, delivering or
distributing a Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method (either physically or by
any electronic or other means) by a Player or Player Support Personnel to any third
party; provided, however, that this definition shall not include (a) the actions of bona
fide medical personnel involving a Prohibited Substance used for genuine and legal
therapeutic purposes or other acceptable justification; or (b) actions involving
Prohibited Substances which are not prohibited in Out-of-Competition Testing
unless the circumstances as a whole demonstrate that such Prohibited Substances
were not intended for genuine and legal therapeutic purposes.

he's in big trouble

duong
04-08-2010, 02:07 PM
Snoo Foo : thanks for the infos :)

For the purposes of establishing his guilt or innocence, that is utterly irrelevant. If you want to be treated as innocent, you stand trail and argue your case to be acquitted. If you plead guilty, you're guilty. I really don't see what is it you don't understand or find dubious.

unfortunately law is not that simple at all.

Many countries have systems which prompt people to plead guilty ... and I'm not sure at all that he needs to bring it intentionally to plead guilty.

oranges
04-08-2010, 02:37 PM
unfortunately law is not that simple at all.

Many countries have systems which prompt people to plead guilty ... and I'm not sure at all that he needs to bring it intentionally to plead guilty.

You can't possibly be serious. The law IS as simple as that. What would you have it be, plead guilty and still be treated innocent until proven otherwise, but since the process is over you cannot be proven guilty either? You make it sound as if people plead guilty in serious criminal proceeding such as this as they do in civil cases when someone sues you for whatever and you decide paying outright is better than going through the process, paying attorney fees and possibly the claim eventually. With a criminal record and possibly jail time at stake, you don't do it just like that in a criminal case. If you do, you surely know the consequence is that you've been convicted, end of story.

Deboogle!.
04-08-2010, 02:42 PM
yes, cuz in the normal world, if a chef pleaded guilty in court to poisoning diners, the restaurant where he worked would have no choice but to say, well, he's entitled to due process so we can't suspend him until we've conducted our own investigation, and in the normal world, if a tax lawyer pleaded guilty to falsifying tax documents, the firm where he works would have to say, oh but he's entitled to due process so we can't suspend him until we've conducted our own investigationWell for example, if a police officer is accused of doing something wrong, in most places, the police department/city will do its own investigation separate from perhaps a criminal investigation. Now, the cop might be put on administrative leave during the internal investigation, which is what many of us think should've happened to Odesnik.

ITF/ATP are not law enforcement agencies.Exactly

i am really curious to see exactly what wayne pleaded guilty toThanks for posting that. Sounds like under the 2nd rule you posted, the ITF investigation should be pretty straightforward. It still doesn't, however, allow them to immediately ban him during its own investigation.


If the ITF cannot suspend a player automatically after an admission of possession of a banned substance,, it should revise it's procedures for the good of the game.This is the point exactly. They're just following procedure, it seems. It's the procedure that appears ridiculous.


In other news, Andy's still pissed and isn't buying it :lol: http://twitter.com/andyroddick/status/11826533307

duong
04-08-2010, 02:59 PM
You can't possibly be serious. The law IS as simple as that. What would you have it be, plead guilty and still be treated innocent until proven otherwise, but since the process is over you cannot be proven guilty either? You make it sound as if people plead guilty in serious criminal proceeding such as this as they do in civil cases when someone sues you for whatever and you decide paying outright is better than going through the process, paying attorney fees and possibly the claim eventually. With a criminal record and possibly jail time at stake, you don't do it just like that in a criminal case. If you do, you surely know the consequence is that you've been convicted, end of story.

From what I read, he didn't risk jail at all :shrug:

I'm very serious, although everything I write looks swahili to people here.

but once again you used the right word : "end of the story" : I'm just unserious or stupid, don't care :worship:

They're just following procedure, it seems. It's the procedure that appears ridiculous.

"appears", yes, that's the right word about everything people are saying here.

Deboogle!.
04-08-2010, 03:08 PM
Forgetting the ITF rules about 'due proces' are you saying that it makes sense that he pleaded guilty to having the substance and isn't banned from playing, considering that mere possession of HGH is a bannable offense?

Everyone here is intelligent enough to understand the rule, but the rule just seems nonsensical in this particular situation given these facts. According to the ITF, the fact that he pleaded guilty in the court proceeding is IRREBUTTABLE EVIDENCE that he committed a doping offense. But yet, they can't ban him until they do an investigation? That just defies common sense.

oranges
04-08-2010, 03:15 PM
I give up, obviously if you plead guilty in a court of law, it does not mean anything at all. You're still innocent until proven guilty. The difference between a criminal and civil case is obviously non-existent and the consequences between the two minor if any in your view. Do you know of any legal system anywhere in the world where once you plead guilty it's not the end of story?

duong
04-08-2010, 03:17 PM
Forgetting the ITF rules about 'due proces' are you saying that it makes sense that he pleaded guilty to having the substance and isn't banned from playing, considering that mere possession of HGH is a bannable offense?

Everyone here is intelligent enough to understand the rule, but the rule just seems nonsensical in this particular situation given these facts. According to the ITF, the fact that he pleaded guilty in the court proceeding is IRREBUTTABLE EVIDENCE that he committed a doping offense. But yet, they can't ban him until they do an investigation? That just defies common sense.

I've said everything I had to say in all of the previous posts, I have nothing to add.

I work for the French government and I know that many rules which appear nonsensical to the persons who are not directly involved in them and know well how it works, actually have a sense when you just have to know better how it goes.

I'm very much used to reading people who say that we are "stupid" and so on, using their "common sense".

I'm also used to seeing people judged by public opinion whereas if people just knew them better, they would have a complete view of what happens.

I don't like this "public opinion" who judges on appearances. That's why I always think it's good to let people catch a glimpse of the fact that things may be more complicated than they look like :shrug:

Sorry if I don't have enough "common sense", which is public opinion's intelligence :worship:

Deboogle!.
04-08-2010, 03:46 PM
I give up, obviously if you plead guilty in a court of law, it does not mean anything at all. You're still innocent until proven guilty. The difference between a criminal and civil case is obviously non-existent and the consequences between the two minor if any in your view. Do you know of any legal system anywhere in the world where once you plead guilty it's not the end of story?:lol: I'm a lawyer, I know all about the legal system and the difference between civil and criminal cases and the like. No one's saying he doesn't deserve an investigation with the ITF, but what a lot of us don't understand is why the ITF couldn't suspend him immediately after learning of his guilty plea, especially if that guilty plea will be used as (apparently irrebuttable) evidence in his ITF investigation anyway. The funny thing is that it probably won't even matter. He's almost certainly facing a ban of at least 2 years, potentially even longer, and he will have to give back these points and prize money anyway AND i'd imagine it won't count as "time served" towards the ban :lol: And that was kind of the point James LaRosa was trying to make. That yeah, even if the rules allow him to play, he maybe shouldn't have.

I've said everything I had to say in all of the previous posts, I have nothing to add.

I work for the French government and I know that many rules which appear nonsensical to the persons who are not directly involved in them and know well how it works, actually have a sense when you just have to know better how it goes.

I'm very much used to reading people who say that we are "stupid" and so on, using their "common sense".

I'm also used to seeing people judged by public opinion whereas if people just knew them better, they would have a complete view of what happens.

I don't like this "public opinion" who judges on appearances. That's why I always think it's good to let people catch a glimpse of the fact that things may be more complicated than they look like :shrug:

Sorry if I don't have enough "common sense", which is public opinion's intelligence :worship:Whoa now, I never said you were stupid or didn't have common sense. Of course, lots of laws (particularly in the part of the US where I live :lol: ) are ridiculous and don't make sense, and lots of laws and rules that seem that way actually have a very good reason. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the lack of sense. Obviously none of us here have the power to change the ITF rule but we can certainly talk about how silly it is. If you think the rules are fine the way they are, then that's your opinion and I certainly won't judge that, I don't even know you :lol: If you can find the sense in this rule, please, explain it to us, we are curious
:lol:

Jelena
04-08-2010, 03:59 PM
he pleaded guilty for "introducing HGH in Australia", not for possessing.
:scratch: How should he introduce HGH into Australia if he didn't posess it in his luggage?
As I said previously, there are people in the world who introduce substances in countries, which they didn't know they hd in their baggage.

It happens, I don't say it's Odesnik's case but it happens.
When that happens, the person who had the substance in the luggage tries everything possible to him to prove that Mr. or Mrs. X had a chance to get 2 mins access to the luggage when he wasn't near the luggage and put the forbidden substance in the luggage.

:lol: How on earth would you import an illegal substance without possessing it. The argument didn't know it was in my baggage is gone the minute he pleaded guilty to the offense. For that, he would obviously need to plead not guilty, stand trial and try to prove he was not the one to put it in there and had no idea about it.
My words.

he's in big trouble
And I hope that, whenever ATP or ITF finally get it managed to get him banned, they ban him the time he deserves for HGH.

duong
04-08-2010, 05:17 PM
Whoa now, I never said you were stupid or didn't have common sense. Of course, lots of laws (particularly in the part of the US where I live :lol: ) are ridiculous and don't make sense, and lots of laws and rules that seem that way actually have a very good reason. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the lack of sense. Obviously none of us here have the power to change the ITF rule but we can certainly talk about how silly it is. If you think the rules are fine the way they are, then that's your opinion and I certainly won't judge that, I don't even know you :lol: If you can find the sense in this rule, please, explain it to us, we are curious
:lol:

I just think I'm unable to judge about this case and these rules, as I don't have enough information to do it.

I may have "common sense", but it may not be enough to understand at all if I don't have enough information.

As a lawyer, I hope you collect all the necessary information rather than relying too much on "common sense".

I have nothing more to say that what I've said in previous pages, however silly or annoying it may be for you and others.

Fee
04-08-2010, 06:18 PM
We are entitled to have opinions even if they don't carry legal weight.

It just seems to me that there is a ridiculous disconnect here. I'm not saying Odesnik is not entitled to his legal rights under due process, but it seems to me that pleading guilty or being convicted of an offence that is clearly related to your job as a tennis player - like importing HGH into the country - in an actual real court of law - there needs to be something under the ATP and/or ITF that puts judgements likes that above their own procedures - insofar as that a judgement like that means the player in question is automatically suspended pending their own investigation. They can do their own investigation, fine, they can do their own due process, but when a player pled guilty in court to an offence they are investigating, suspension HAS to be automatic, otherwise the impression this give of the SPORT overall is appalling.

Well laws are usually made AFTER someone screws something up, so you can expect that the ATP/ITF process will be amended to say that pleading guilty in a public court of law in any country will get an immediate suspension pending outcome of the investigation within the tennis world. That obviously doesn't exist at this time so the ITF/ATP have done the right thing allowing Wayne to play.

It was up to Wayne to take the provisional suspension (which would have been credited back towards whatever ban he received) and he chose not to, possibly on the advice of counsel. Blame Wayne, don't blame the ITF, they did the right thing. Their process has to be applied to all players equally or its useless, you can't claim a 'special case' if it does not exist within the published rules and procedures that all of the players and their governing bodies agree to abide by.

Doesn't anybody remember what happened the last time the ATP tried to make up the rules as they went along? I do, it was at a round robin tournament in Las Vegas.

Fee
04-08-2010, 06:20 PM
Forgetting the ITF rules about 'due proces' are you saying that it makes sense that he pleaded guilty to having the substance and isn't banned from playing, considering that mere possession of HGH is a bannable offense?

Everyone here is intelligent enough to understand the rule, but the rule just seems nonsensical in this particular situation given these facts. According to the ITF, the fact that he pleaded guilty in the court proceeding is IRREBUTTABLE EVIDENCE that he committed a doping offense. But yet, they can't ban him until they do an investigation? That just defies common sense.

They can't ban him until they do due process. Makes perfect sense to me.

scoobs
04-08-2010, 06:23 PM
Well laws are usually made AFTER someone screws something up, so you can expect that the ATP/ITF process will be amended to say that pleading guilty in a public court of law in any country will get an immediate suspension pending outcome of the investigation within the tennis world. That obviously doesn't exist at this time so the ITF/ATP have done the right thing allowing Wayne to play.

It was up to Wayne to take the provisional suspension (which would have been credited back towards whatever ban he received) and he chose not to, possibly on the advice of counsel. Blame Wayne, don't blame the ITF, they did the right thing. Their process has to be applied to all players equally or its useless, you can't claim a 'special case' if it does not exist within the published rules and procedures that all of the players and their governing bodies agree to abide by.

Doesn't anybody remember what happened the last time the ATP tried to make up the rules as they went along? I do, it was at a round robin tournament in Las Vegas.
I see what you're saying but where I differ is that I don't see why something isn't already in the ITF code to cover this sort of situation, where legal proceedings against a player in a court of law directly impact whether or not that player should be free to continue playing professional tennis while the ITF conducts its own investigation.

It seems to me to be a pretty glaring omission in their own code.

Fee
04-08-2010, 06:30 PM
I see what you're saying but where I differ is that I don't see why something isn't already in the ITF code to cover this sort of situation, where legal proceedings against a player in a court of law directly impact whether or not that player should be free to continue playing professional tennis while the ITF conducts its own investigation.

It seems to me to be a pretty glaring omission in their own code.

It is, and I absolutely agree with you. They screwed up, but I can tell you from my experience working in the California state legislature... you can put ten different experts around a table to write a new law from scratch, you can play out every scenario possible in brainstorming sessions, and you will still miss something that should have been in the new code, something you may not discover until its been in place for a few years. The ITF now finds itself in that place and real life has shown them a glaring omission in their own code.


By the way, here is one more reason why the ITF might be allowing Wayne to play and being such sticklers for the code book on this one. How many of their previous cases have been overturned or reduced on appeal? It seems to me they have a shoddy record, so being overly picky about this one, getting it right and making a bullet proof, mistake free case that stands up to appeal is the correct path.

scoobs
04-08-2010, 06:33 PM
It is, and I absolutely agree with you. They screwed up, but I can tell you from my experience working in the California state legislature... you can put ten different experts around a table to write a new law from scratch, you can play out every scenario possible in brainstorming sessions, and you will still miss something that should have been in the new code, something you may not discover until its been in place for a few years. The ITF now finds itself in that place and real life has shown them a glaring omission in their own code.


By the way, here is one more reason why the ITF might be allowing Wayne to play and being such sticklers for the code book on this one. How many of their previous cases have been overturned or reduced on appeal? It seems to me they have a shoddy record, so being overly picky about this one, getting it right and making a bullet proof, mistake free case that stands up to appeal is the correct path.
Oh I agree, they have to play by the rules as they are, as rigorously as they can - as you say, they've often had their noses smacked on appeal.

Just a shame that they got themselves into this ludicrous looking situation.

Jelena
04-08-2010, 06:33 PM
I see what you're saying but where I differ is that I don't see why something isn't already in the ITF code to cover this sort of situation, where legal proceedings against a player in a court of law directly impact whether or not that player should be free to continue playing professional tennis while the ITF conducts its own investigation.

It seems to me to be a pretty glaring omission in their own code.
Sometimes it's only obvious that something is missing in a rulebook when a case in practice is happening like now with Odesnik. That's why I hope (and think) that both ATP and ITF will add that rule now.

Deboogle!.
04-08-2010, 06:48 PM
They can't ban him until they do due process. Makes perfect sense to me.
So they can use the result of the court case, but not the due process that he was surely afforded during the court case to speed it along? Obviously not, the way it's currently written, but it still makes no sense to me. Hopefully Jelena is right and they will learn from this mess. The fact that the ITF couldn't even start its investigation until after the court proceeding was all over could be the part of it that baffles me the most.

And it's not like there's no precedent for provisional punishment. Lots of criminals are locked up before they're proven guilty because the threat to society outweighs. I think in this case, where the guy has basically admitted to a bannable offense, the damage he's doing to the tour right now far outweighs any (double) due process he deserves. Just my opinion.

Fee
04-08-2010, 06:56 PM
So they can use the result of the court case, but not the due process that he was surely afforded during the court case to speed it along? Obviously not, the way it's currently written, but it still makes no sense to me. Hopefully Jelena is right and they will learn from this mess. The fact that the ITF couldn't even start its investigation until after the court proceeding was all over could be the part of it that baffles me the most.

And it's not like there's no precedent for provisional punishment. Lots of criminals are locked up before they're proven guilty because the threat to society outweighs. I think in this case, where the guy has basically admitted to a bannable offense, the damage he's doing to the tour right now far outweighs any (double) due process he deserves. Just my opinion.

No, they can't use someone else's due process as a substitute for their own. That makes sense to me. I have no idea how fast or not fast this will be. I suspect it will be pretty quick since it's not about disputing test results or coming up with any reason why something is in the blood (I drank my wife's meds).

The ITF stated clearly why they didnt run their process concurrently, so as not to interfere with Wayne's rights to defend himself in a court of law (and hey, it gives them a nice clean gulity verdict to run with now doesn't it?).

So, this player is making the tour look bad and that gives them the out they need to ignore their own code book? I would hope not.

Fee
04-08-2010, 07:00 PM
Oh I agree, they have to play by the rules as they are, as rigorously as they can - as you say, they've often had their noses smacked on appeal.

Just a shame that they got themselves into this ludicrous looking situation.

Word.

Here's hoping they fix this, just as quickly as their amending procedures allow them to.

scarecrows
04-08-2010, 07:06 PM
Wayno destroying Kukushkin

Imagine if he wins the title :eek:

Jelena
04-08-2010, 09:19 PM
Wayno destroying Kukushkin

Imagine if he wins the title :eek:
please not

philosophicalarf
04-08-2010, 09:38 PM
Probably Isner next.... Odesnik beat him here last year :-) Then Querrey, who had some nasty things to say about Odesnik, would be a good semi.

Ad Wim
04-08-2010, 09:48 PM
He won't win against Isner, maybe against Malisse.

Good to see him winning now, really hope he didn't take the shit so he goes out with a bang.

Snoo Foo
04-08-2010, 10:14 PM
No, they can't use someone else's due process as a substitute for their own.

maybe a lawyer can help me out but i thought this kind of stuff happens all the time, i.e., Jurisdiction A acknowledges that due process was afforded in Jurisdiction B. Especially when Jurisdiction B is the government of a country of 22 million people, relatively quite strong on political rights and civil liberties, while Jurisdiction A is the governing body of a sport. If the nation of Australia is not a competent jurisdiction, who is? :scared:

either way, i guess they gotta get some suits together in a conference room to look over the paperwork, but they've had plenty of time to assemble a tribunal or whatever the hell they're going to do, since they've known about this since January and presumably knew when his hearing was scheduled. Maybe they just weren't expecting him to plead guilty and figured they'd have a long trial to wait out before they had to deal with him. Meh :shrug:

i'm kinda surprised there isn't more circling of wagons from the US players, no "We're all feeling for him right now, and we hope he gets through this tough time" or even "I don't think it would be fair to comment on his situation without knowing all the facts," or the usual canned ham that gets served up when a teammate gets a dui or a dv arrest or whatever.

Fee
04-08-2010, 11:00 PM
maybe a lawyer can help me out but i thought this kind of stuff happens all the time, i.e., Jurisdiction A acknowledges that due process was afforded in Jurisdiction B. Especially when Jurisdiction B is the government of a country of 22 million people, relatively quite strong on political rights and civil liberties, while Jurisdiction A is the governing body of a sport. If the nation of Australia is not a competent jurisdiction, who is? :scared:


I suspect they can't do it because their rules/code book/process doesn't allow them to do it. It really is that simple. Besides, the infraction that Wayne will be charged with is 'posession' not a positive test for usage since there isn't one. They got their proof of posession as soon as the case in Australia was finished and so their due process begins the minute that happened. Besides, the process for the ITF is different anyway, so how could they use anything from Australia except for the guilty plea? Honestly I'm getting very perplexed why this is so hard for so many here to understand. It isn't about common sense or what looks good for the tour or tennis industry, it's as simple as what is written in their code (whatever that is, honeslty I haven't read the whole damn thing).



either way, i guess they gotta get some suits together in a conference room to look over the paperwork, but they've had plenty of time to assemble a tribunal or whatever the hell they're going to do, since they've known about this since January and presumably knew when his hearing was scheduled. Maybe they just weren't expecting him to plead guilty and figured they'd have a long trial to wait out before they had to deal with him. Meh :shrug:

I have no idea what the full procedure is, especially in a case that looks as cut and dried as this one does on the surface. No surprise that it isn't happening instantly, especially in the US where legal matters move slowly. But, as a dues paying member of the ATP, Wayne has rights and those rights have to be respected.



i'm kinda surprised there isn't more circling of wagons from the US players, no "We're all feeling for him right now, and we hope he gets through this tough time" or even "I don't think it would be fair to comment on his situation without knowing all the facts," or the usual canned ham that gets served up when a teammate gets a dui or a dv arrest or whatever.

I'm not surprised by this at all, Wayne is not part of the 'clique'. I don't remember him ever being invited as a Davis Cup practice partner, he was never one of the USTA chosen ones. Behind the scenes, I'm sure there are people in the ATP that are working with him simply because they are supposed to represent the players as the players' association (as weak as that representation is). In my opinion, if someone like Devin Britton perhaps had been stupid enough to do this, I doubt the quotes from Roddick, Fish, Blake, and Querrey would have been the same.

Snoo Foo
04-08-2010, 11:36 PM
Besides, the infraction that Wayne will be charged with is 'posession'

or even "trafficking" :shrug:

Besides, the process for the ITF is different anyway, so how could they use anything from Australia except for the guilty plea?

how is it different? according to the ITF code, "The facts established by a decision of a court or professional disciplinary tribunal... shall be irrebuttable evidence against the Participant to whom the decision pertained of those facts," so if there was any findings of facts or allocution or whatever the hell might have been part of the guilty plea, those can be used against him.

Honestly I'm getting very perplexed why this is so hard for so many here to understand.

we are not as smart as you, take pity :awww:

Fee
04-08-2010, 11:40 PM
or even "trafficking" :shrug:

I should think the possession is all they need, especially if that's what he pled guilty to then that's what they will use.



how is it different? according to the ITF code, "The facts established by a decision of a court or professional disciplinary tribunal... shall be irrebuttable evidence against the Participant to whom the decision pertained of those facts," so if there was any findings of facts or allocution or whatever the hell might have been part of the guilty plea, those can be used against him.

Right, they are being used against him, but they still have to go through their own procedure. They said as much, they can't just automatically suspend him once his guilty plea in another jurisdiction became official (and this is the rule that needs to be amended).



we are not as smart as you, take pity :awww:

Was that necessary?

Snoo Foo
04-08-2010, 11:52 PM
just trying to assuage your apparent exasperation :yeah:

Deboogle!.
04-09-2010, 01:17 AM
Fee, I think (almost) everyone understands that they're doing things by the book, we just think the book is really messed up.

Fee
04-09-2010, 01:43 AM
just trying to assuage your apparent exasperation :yeah:

I appreciate your compassion, but there was no exasperation.

Fee, I think (almost) everyone understands that they're doing things by the book, we just think the book is really messed up.

No argument from me, they missed the boat big time on this one. Here's hoping they clean it up so that they do have provisions for immediate suspensions in the future.

Johnny Groove
04-09-2010, 03:01 AM
I'm rooting for Odesnik to win Houston now.

simplet
04-09-2010, 03:43 AM
I'm rooting for Odesnik to win Houston now.

That's pretty smart

Jelena
04-09-2010, 08:39 AM
I should think the possession is all they need, especially if that's what he pled guilty to then that's what they will use.

According to the thread opening article he pled guilty for "importing" which should (according to my naive understanding of law) not only imply "possession" (a bannable thing to do according to the rulebooks), but also "trafficking" (which is also bannable). :shrug: But - whatever it is he pled guilty for - according to the rulebooks he is to be banned. The problem in all that stuff is that he can't be banned faster.

Henry Chinaski
04-09-2010, 01:27 PM
I'm rooting for Odesnik to win Houston now.

It would be pretty funny.

Prob good for tennis in the long-run as well as the authorities will come under a lot of public pressure to clamp down on doping

Singularity
04-09-2010, 02:00 PM
I'm rooting for Odesnik to win Houston now.
I wonder what the awards ceremony would be like in that case.

JMG
04-09-2010, 05:41 PM
I wonder if any of his opponents will reject the handshake, like it happened to Korda once.

Deboogle!.
04-09-2010, 08:34 PM
http://twitter.com/sptdlr/status/11899485204

Querrey is in the anti-Odesnik faction. Asked about a possible semifinal meeting with him, Querrey said: "I refuse to lose to that guy."

Black Adam
04-10-2010, 02:34 PM
By the way, what is HGH used for apart from growth of skeletal muscles or muscle mass?

I don't really think Odesnik needs to grow taller or put on a tremeandous ammount of muscles.

P.S. I read somewhere, someone saying that since he was caught with 7 vials of HGH, he could claim he was paying Snow White and the 7 dwarfs a visit :rolls::haha::lol:

yonexforever
04-12-2010, 10:47 PM
I understand the due process bit, but what if he ends up getting suspended for 2 years, what happens to the players he beat in Houston for example?
He gets to return the prize money and ranking points, but what of his victims?
Do they get rewarded points based on the round he beat them?

Henry Chinaski
04-12-2010, 11:41 PM
By the way, what is HGH used for apart from growth of skeletal muscles or muscle mass?

I don't really think Odesnik needs to grow taller or put on a tremeandous ammount of muscles.



Neurotic hollywood types supposedly take it for it's anti-ageing properties

maybe wayno was just worried about the cosmetic effects of sun exposure on his skin

lalaland
04-12-2010, 11:58 PM
Neurotic hollywood types supposedly take it for it's anti-ageing properties

maybe wayno was just worried about the cosmetic effects of sun exposure on his skin

:lol:
He does look way older than 24 to me, maybe he does need it.

Experimentee
04-13-2010, 05:20 AM
What is the difference between this and the Gasquet case? Gasquet was suspended from the tour pending his hearing, and then they ended up accepting his excuse after he had already missed two Slams. Why wasn't Gasquet afforded this "due process"?

Fee
04-13-2010, 05:40 AM
What is the difference between this and the Gasquet case? Gasquet was suspended from the tour pending his hearing, and then they ended up accepting his excuse after he had already missed two Slams. Why wasn't Gasquet afforded this "due process"?

He was. Gasquet took a provisional suspension and when his case was over that time off was counted in his favor. For whatever reason, Wayne is not taking a provisional suspension and he plans to play the Rome Challenger and whatever else is on his schedule for clay season. I'm very perplexed by his choices. If he gets suspended, any money and points he has earned since Miami will be taken away from him. I don't understand why he has decided to keep playing and it really makes me wonder if there is a lot more to this story than what seems so obvious on the surface.

andy neyer
04-13-2010, 05:52 AM
He was. Gasquet took a provisional suspension and when his case was over that time off was counted in his favor. For whatever reason, Wayne is not taking a provisional suspension and he plans to play the Rome Challenger and whatever else is on his schedule for clay season. I'm very perplexed by his choices. If he gets suspended, any money and points he has earned since Miami will be taken away from him. I don't understand why he has decided to keep playing and it really makes me wonder if there is a lot more to this story than what seems so obvious on the surface.

It's indeed a quite strange decision considering that I don't truly see a way he could get out of the mess he's in.
If he gets suspended, all of his points and prize money since Brisbane will be taken away from him and his supension will have counted since the start of the Brisbane Open right? i.e. if he gets banned for 2 years (as it seems likely at this point) then he will be able to play in the ATP in February 2012 right?

Fee
04-13-2010, 08:29 PM
It's indeed a quite strange decision considering that I don't truly see a way he could get out of the mess he's in.
If he gets suspended, all of his points and prize money since Brisbane will be taken away from him and his supension will have counted since the start of the Brisbane Open right? i.e. if he gets banned for 2 years (as it seems likely at this point) then he will be able to play in the ATP in February 2012 right?

I don't think so. I'm not sure how far back they'll go taking away his points and prize money, but I don't think they can back date a suspension. They could start both as of the day he pled guilty I suppose. Although possession implies usage, they have no proof of usage, so they can only punish him for the possession (technically, and yes I'm well aware that members of this forum would like otherwise).

Video of one of Wayne's press sessions from Houston http://www.youtube.com/USTATexas#p/u/3/Vlf3EE4RZZM (no comment on this, I haven't seen the whole thing yet due to my spotty connection)


Well, he answered the Canas question, they've been working together off and on since after the USO last year. Interesting.

tangerine_dream
04-13-2010, 08:51 PM
Maybe he's playing just to prove how big a dick he really is?

Snoo Foo
04-13-2010, 09:03 PM
Although possession implies usage, they have no proof of usage, so they can only punish him for the possession (technically, and yes I'm well aware that members of this forum would like otherwise).

Possession and use both carry the same minimum penalties so if they can prove possession it doesn't matter whether he used.

Their rules regarding automatic disqualification of results and prize money forfeiture apply only when the violation is discovered as a result of in-competition testing. They don't seem to have spent much time considering what would happen if the violation was discovered by some other means. Presumably in this case the tribunal would have to determine which event this violation occurred "during or in connection with," Brisbane or what, but the way it's written I wouldn't be at all surprised if Wayne's lawyers can find a way to get him to keep his points and money, which would explain why he played his ass off in Houston.

JMG
04-13-2010, 09:28 PM
Maxi Abel even got suspended for cocaine until January 2010, although his last tournament was in November 2007, just because he withdrew from a tournament in January 2008. So Odesnik's suspension should be at least unitl late April 2012.

Ad Wim
04-13-2010, 10:07 PM
I don't think so. I'm not sure how far back they'll go taking away his points and prize money, but I don't think they can back date a suspension. They could start both as of the day he pled guilty I suppose. Although possession implies usage, they have no proof of usage, so they can only punish him for the possession (technically, and yes I'm well aware that members of this forum would like otherwise).

Video of one of Wayne's press sessions from Houston http://www.youtube.com/USTATexas#p/u/3/Vlf3EE4RZZM (no comment on this, I haven't seen the whole thing yet due to my spotty connection)


Well, he answered the Canas question, they've been working together off and on since after the USO last year. Interesting.

Looks like a smart guy, too bad he is going to be suspended.

andy neyer
04-14-2010, 12:57 AM
Maxi Abel even got suspended for cocaine until January 2010, although his last tournament was in November 2007, just because he withdrew from a tournament in January 2008. So Odesnik's suspension should be at least unitl late April 2012.

But if they decide to take away the points and money Wayne has won in Houston, then the suspension should count from before Houston right? Otherwise it wouldn't be fair, imo.

andy neyer
04-14-2010, 12:59 AM
I don't think so. I'm not sure how far back they'll go taking away his points and prize money, but I don't think they can back date a suspension. They could start both as of the day he pled guilty I suppose. Although possession implies usage, they have no proof of usage, so they can only punish him for the possession (technically, and yes I'm well aware that members of this forum would like otherwise).

Video of one of Wayne's press sessions from Houston http://www.youtube.com/USTATexas#p/u/3/Vlf3EE4RZZM (no comment on this, I haven't seen the whole thing yet due to my spotty connection)


Well, he answered the Canas question, they've been working together off and on since after the USO last year. Interesting.

I understand that the penalty for possesion is the same as for doping but I'm not sure... I really wish the best to Wayne. He's just a journeyman who make a mistake and now his entire career will be jeopardized because of this. He's 24, usually the time in which tennis players peak.

duong
04-14-2010, 07:33 AM
What is the difference between this and the Gasquet case? Gasquet was suspended from the tour pending his hearing, and then they ended up accepting his excuse after he had already missed two Slams. Why wasn't Gasquet afforded this "due process"?

From what Truc said in this thread, Gasquet was not obliged to accept his "provisional suspension" : he could have played if he wanted.

This notion of "provisional suspension" is very strange imo : it's quite symbolic for the ITF, and the only practical change is that the player can stop playing if he wants and he's allowed to deduct this time from his final suspension if he gets one.

But it was even more strange in Gasquet's case as in the end, Gasquet would not have been suspended and lost points if he had played during this period as the CAS said he didn't deserve ANY suspension.

In the end the only player who served his "provisional suspension" was the only one who didn't get any suspension in the end :lol:

It's as if he had imposed this suspension to himself :lol:

duong
04-14-2010, 07:38 AM
He was. Gasquet took a provisional suspension and when his case was over that time off was counted in his favor. .

only for the first decision (ITF tribunal) which gave him a suspension ... precisely for the two months and a half he had not played :lol:

CAS tribunal decided that he didn't deserve ANY suspension, and if he had played during that time he would have kept his points

duong
04-14-2010, 08:40 AM
Well, he answered the Canas question, they've been working together off and on since after the USO last year. Interesting.

I know that people in this thread don't like hypotheses, only "obvious evidence" (the fact that he was taken by the customs + pleaded guilty of importing HGH in front of Australian court),

but I consider as a possible HYPOTHESIS that Canas asked him to carry HGH to Australia even though Odesnik was not a practical user.

Investigations are made to check all these hypotheses :shrug:

Deboogle!.
04-14-2010, 06:03 PM
Yikes.
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=5087155
=================

Documents detail Odesnik HGH case

By Bonnie D. Ford
ESPN.com
Archive

Wayne Odesnik arrived in Brisbane, Australia on a Qantas flight last Jan. 2 without his luggage, setting off a series of events that led him to plead guilty to importing human growth hormone, according to Australian court documents.

ESPN.com this week obtained transcripts of the court hearing and magistrate's ruling in Odesnik's case from the Brisbane Magistrates Court. In it, details of Odesnik's case emerged, largely for the first time.

When Odesnik's misplaced bags were located at the Brisbane airport two days later, customs officers found eight vials of human growth hormone and other medical paraphernalia in a routine search. They interviewed the 24-year-old American tennis player at his hotel room on Jan. 5, and charged him with importing HGH on Jan 6.

Odesnik did not appear in person for a March 11 hearing -- he was in Indian Wells, Calif., where the following day he lost in the first round of the BNP Paribas Open. He instructed defense lawyer James Godbolt to enter a guilty plea on his behalf. Odesnik's conviction was recorded by Magistrate Graham C. Lee on March 25 and announced by the Australian Customs and Border Protection Service the next day.

According to the file:

• Among Odesnik's belongings was a box containing seven vials of six milligrams apiece of Serostim, a brand name for Somatropin, a form of biosynthetic human growth hormone. The label had been torn off the box. An eighth vial was found in a Styrofoam box in a separate plastic bag, which also held 10 syringes and several small bottles of Bacteriostatic water (sterile water containing a small amount of benzyl alcohol) which is used to dilute drugs for injection. "The defendant confirmed that the HGH was in his bag when he checked it in," said Chris Zeilinga, the attorney representing the Australian government.

• When interviewed by the customs officers, Odesnik repeatedly said he had a doctor's prescription for HGH to aid his recovery from a potentially "career-threatening injury." He later admitted through his lawyer that he had ordered the HGH from the Internet and did not provide the name of a consulting doctor or a description of the injury. Zeilinga noted that Odesnik competed in both the Brisbane International and the Australian Open tournaments that month and appeared to be "in a fit condition to play." (Odesnik played in 26 tournaments from January to November 2009 and does not appear to have taken significant time off.)

• Odesnik told the officers that he didn't intend to use HGH until he had "approval." However, there is no indication that he had taken any steps to fill out required paperwork for that purpose.

• WADA, the ITF, the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency and Tennis Australia were all notified of the allegations against Odesnik within days after he was charged. There are several references to the fact that the ITF was waiting for the court case to be concluded before initiating proceedings against Odesnik.

• The ITF's anti-doping regulations were introduced as an exhibit in the case, and the two lawyers made opposing arguments about whether the prospect of sanctions from the ITF should be a factor in Odesnik's sentencing. Zeilinga urged the magistrate not to take that into account, calling the ITF's process completely independent. Godbolt asked for leniency, noting the financial impact of Odesnik's potential two-year suspension from tennis.

• In the course of discussing how much to fine Odesnik, Godbolt invoked the example of actor Sylvester Stallone, who tried to bring 48 vials of HGH (as well as testosterone) into the country in 2007 and was assessed $2,800 plus $7,640 in court costs. Odesnik ultimately was fined $7,453 (the maximum is $20,500) and ordered to pay $1,065 in court costs.

HGH, banned under the World Anti-Doping Agency's code, also cannot be brought into Australia for personal use or used there without a prescription. It was one of a number of performance-enhancing drugs added to a list of prohibited imports by Australian customs officials in 1999 and 2000 as part of the government's "Tough on Drugs in Sport" policy leading up to the Sydney Olympics.

Odesnik played at the U.S. Men's Clay Court Championships last week in Houston, where he reached the semifinals. Officials from the International Tennis Federation and the ATP acknowledged they were investigating Odesnik but could not prevent him from competing in the meantime. He faces sanctions including a two-year suspension from tennis authorities.

Excerpts from Magistrate Graham C. Lee's ruling in the Odesnik case:

"Mr. Odesnik is an elite athlete who should have been well aware of the sensitivities in having possession of the vials without first obtaining appropriate approvals. When speaking with customs officers, Mr. Odesnik in my view tried to cover up his possession of these vials on the basis that he had a career-ending injury and that a doctor had prescribed the vials of Serostim to him ... this turned out to be incorrect. While he subsequently offered information through his lawyers that he bought them off the Internet, in my view that is a token level of cooperation only… I found Mr. Odesnik's explanation for his possession of the vials to be unsatisfactory to say the least.

"It is clear that Mr. Odesnik initially did not cooperate fully with customs officers by telling them that he had a prescription for the vials when he didn't.

"Given that Mr. Odesnik is a professional international tennis player who ought to have known better and for reasons previously outlined, my view is that personal deterrence is an important factor in this case ... While he may well be banned from playing for at least one year under the (ITF's anti-doping program), personal deterrence remains important in the event he returns to the international tennis circuit.

"General deterrence is an important factor in sentencing Mr. Odesnik, who is an elite athlete coming into this country in possession of a prohibited substance, Serostim ... He must have been aware of this. If not, given his professional status as an international tennis player, he should have been aware of it. In my view, this is a case that calls for strong general deterrence so that other elite athletes who are considering similar activities will think twice before doing so.

"The issue of anti-doping violation rules is part and parcel of his job as a professional tennis player."

tennisfox
04-14-2010, 10:17 PM
The ATP & ITF are desperately scrabbling around looking for a way to sweep this under the carpet.

star
04-14-2010, 10:45 PM
I know that people in this thread don't like hypotheses, only "obvious evidence" (the fact that he was taken by the customs + pleaded guilty of importing HGH in front of Australian court),

but I consider as a possible HYPOTHESIS that Canas asked him to carry HGH to Australia even though Odesnik was not a practical user.

Investigations are made to check all these hypotheses :shrug:

Does it matter if someone else asked him to take HGH into Australia? Isn't it enough that it is in his possession?

Every drug user can come up with clever excuses for having possession of illicit substances. However, possession is enough for a ban. Proof of using the drugs is not necessary.

However, after the Gasquet case and Agassi's revelations, nothing the ITF does will surprise me.

cobalt60
04-14-2010, 11:28 PM
One word-stupid

Guy Haines
04-15-2010, 12:10 AM
One word-stupid

Sue :lol: I guess your medical expertise has little to do with it, but you're much more succinct than the armchair analysts on these pages.

Odesnik sure looked pumped-up in Houston in comparison to the player who made waves there in recent years. And I'm not talking about motivation or determination.

smitty8
04-15-2010, 01:23 AM
Well Wayne, good luck finding a new job.

Aquarianbabe
04-15-2010, 03:27 AM
duong, I don't get why you think Canas would ask Wayno to import HGH into another country for him.

Can you fill me in?

Deboogle!.
04-15-2010, 04:21 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ap-odesnik-hgh

ITF to revisit doping rules after Odesnik case

PARIS (AP)—The International Tennis Federation says it will review rules that have prevented it from suspending Wayne Odesnik even after the American player pleaded guilty to importing growth hormones into Australia.

Under current rules, the governing body of tennis can only provisionally suspend players who are being investigated for a failed drug test. But players cannot be prevented from playing while they are investigated for other suspected doping violations, like possessing a banned substance.

ITF anti-doping manager Stuart Miller says there’s clearly a need to review those rules and that there is “no doubt” that that that will happen.

cobalt60
04-15-2010, 04:21 PM
Sue :lol: I guess your medical expertise has little to do with it, but you're much more succinct than the armchair analysts on these pages.

Odesnik sure looked pumped-up in Houston in comparison to the player who made waves there in recent years. And I'm not talking about motivation or determination.

I am to please; no expertise needed;)