Nadal on clay Discussion Thread [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Nadal on clay Discussion Thread

koslav85
03-25-2011, 05:43 AM
We all know Nadal is the best clay court player of all time. Do you think he is harder to beat at RG or Monte Carlo. He's won 6 in a row at MC, still has won 5 RG but not in a row. Is it safe to say that beating Nadal at Monte Carlo is hardest thing in tennis currently, considering surface speed and bounce vs Roland Garros, which plays faster to my understanding. I personally consider these two tournaments as hardest to win if your name is not Rafael Nadal. The floor is yours.

n8
03-25-2011, 05:46 AM
Yep. Monte Carlo is Nadal's best event and is the hardest event to win if you're not Nadal. Even in 2003 as a 16 year old it took one of the best clay courters of the early to mid 00s to stop him (Coria d. Nadal 7-6 6-2 3rd round).

Pirata.
03-25-2011, 05:48 AM
Djokovic will beat him in Monte Carlo and RG. In fact, Djokovic will not lose another match for the rest of the season. So it is written on MTF, and so it must be. :shrug:

In all seriousness, I think it's more difficult to beat him at Monte Carlo. Rarely does he get pushed to the limit like he has at RG on occasion (needing one or two TBs against Almugro last year, for example) Verdasco played out of his mind in the final and he only won a single game. Since his streak began, he's only lost four sets in Monte Carlo: one to an in-form Gasquet who had just beaten Federer, and the other three were in finals (Coria, Federer and Djokovic)

Topspindoctor
03-25-2011, 12:43 PM
Monte Carlo is true clay. RG is a hard court with clay dust on it. Nadal is unstoppable at MC, players struggle to get games off him. RG is far more open because it was sped up. If all clay court season was played on MC clay, Nadal would never lose a match.

AncicCilic
03-25-2011, 01:45 PM
Actually i'd go with Roland Garros here for one simple reason - you have to win 3 sets of 5 to beat him which i think is harder against a good player.

nalbyfan
03-25-2011, 02:09 PM
I would be surprised if Armani model won MC + Barcelona + Madrid + Roma + RG this year !!!

Elbarto
03-25-2011, 02:27 PM
Do you think he is harder to beat at RG or Monte Carlo.

at RG players must take 3 sets to Nadal, at Monte Carlo only 2,

but at RG Nadal can have problems with his knees ( RG2009 ) if he spent to much energy and intensity on previous tournaments ( this year he will play 4 tournaments on clay before RG : Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Madrid, Roma ), so a healthy and talented player can annoy and maybe beat Nadal at RG,

at Monte Carlo Nadal will be probably injury-free but I hope some players will find the solution ( maybe Djoko )

philosophicalarf
03-25-2011, 04:31 PM
Monte Carlo is probably the slowest clay court going now, since Estoril switched to quicker balls last year. Roland Garros the last two years has been the quickest of the sea level events, although it remains to be seen if this is an accident of weather.

There was an interesting series of clay matches between Djoko and Nadal in 2009, in the three masters...

Monte Carlo: Nadal was taken to three, but that's a little misleading, Nadal rather went to sleep in the second set, then 6-1 in the third. Serve was irrelevant, everything came back, 12 breaks of serve in 24 games!

Rome: Quicker court, more serve advantage. Tiebreak first set, very tight, before Djoko lost heart a bit in the second. 6 breaks in 20 games.

Madrid: Bit of altitude, ball flies. Both were able to impose their service advantage, and there were only 3 breaks in 33 games. With the extra speed and less breaks, Djoko was much much comfortable - he took the opener, other two went to tiebreaks. Brutal match.

duong
03-25-2011, 04:39 PM
Actually i'd go with Roland Garros here for one simple reason - you have to win 3 sets of 5 to beat him which i think is harder against a good player.

+1 Fed and Djokovic both managed to win one set against Nadal in Monte-Carlo, and well, they could have won in a final set, the match between Nadal and Djokovic in 2009 was tighter than the final set score (6-1) indicates.

In 5-setter format that's another story, esp against such a physically strong guy.

CCBH
03-25-2011, 04:43 PM
MC is also the first event of the claycourt season for most top guys, who generally play their way into claycourt form. Nadal morphs instantaneously into invincible dirtballer simply because of his innate superiority, physical strength and confidence on the surface; other guys need some time, which is one of the many reasons he has such a commanding record there (the primary reason still is that it is true clay).

Sonja1989
03-25-2011, 05:46 PM
Nadal is unbeatable on clay. ;)

Blackbriar
03-25-2011, 06:02 PM
Only Monfils can stop Nadal on clay today

Topspindoctor
03-25-2011, 06:03 PM
Only Monfils can stop Nadal on clay today

What about Gasquet? Assuming he sniffs coke on every changeover?

!VamosRafa!
03-25-2011, 06:09 PM
DJokovic will stop him:sad:

Sonja1989
03-25-2011, 06:27 PM
DJokovic will stop him:sad:

Don't worry, I don't think...

Certinfy
03-25-2011, 06:32 PM
I think Djokovic will have his chances at MC, Rome and Madrid. At RG though it's a completely different story, I do think Djokovic could push Nadal but take 3 sets off him on clay, maybe that's asking too much of him physically?

Blackbriar
03-25-2011, 06:35 PM
What about Gasquet? Assuming he sniffs coke on every changeover?

Gasquet is playing on Tranxene. Believe it or not, but last year, french articles were arguing about the possiblity of Tsonga winning RG because of his beefed up preparation on clay. YES, I swear, i'm not lying.

abraxas21
03-25-2011, 07:40 PM
only santiago giraldo can stop nadal in RG this year.

Mjau!
03-25-2011, 07:51 PM
We all know Nadal is the best clay court player of all time.

:cuckoo:

Clay Death
07-07-2011, 03:08 PM
is nadal`s dominance on his very best surface in question after having lost 2 finals on clay to nole this year?

will be able to bounce back and hit back hard in 2012 and go for one of the most revered records in tennis: borg`s record of 6 french opens.


discuss.


*again this is one of the most critical questions in our sport and people are already pondering it.

i have yet to figure out why mods allow 100 totally pathetic threads a week here but run to abolish the really good ones that could promote solid and honest discussions.

Time Violation
07-07-2011, 03:12 PM
He won RG so I'd say no, but there are definitely cracks in the dam. :)

Clay Death
07-07-2011, 03:14 PM
how can he fix those "cracks" in the dam?

what changes do you expect from him next year?

Clay Death
07-07-2011, 03:16 PM
the single most dominant issue or question facing the sport already is this one:

will nadal be able to hold on to clay dominance? will he be able to fight off nole for his 7th french open?


will those 2 losses on clay this year to nole pave the way for more losses?

Sophocles
07-07-2011, 03:25 PM
Either Nole's level needs to drop, or Rafa needs to find an aggressive backhand down the line. He's simply not putting enough pressure on Nole's backhand side.

Time Violation
07-07-2011, 03:30 PM
It's way too early to say I think. Nadal looked almost unbeatable at USO, but not nearly so this whole year (struggling on clay much more than usual, and not just against Novak), so last year didn't tell much about this year it seems.

Also I expect other players will be much more relevant next year; this year had perhaps not so usual situation where everyone outside top 3 struggled a lot - mentally or physically or both mentally and physically (Murray, Soderling, Delpo, etc) - as Dr. Ivo said I think, bad is new good. :p

If I were a Nadal fan I would be worried though, of course he will never take the role of a favorite, but his recent comments were somewhat more negative/depressed than usual I think, especially the parts where he keeps saying about being older/tired etc.

"Seriously, is not possible be No. 1 or No. 2 playing Davis Cup every tie, be in all the places, be competitive in all the tournaments. Is not possible. I am not 18 anymore. I am 25. I am playing a lot of matches. I am lucky because I won a lot of matches, so for that reason I am playing that match, not because I am playing more tournaments than usual. So for that reason I cannot be there. For me is tough. But for the ITF, doesn't matter."

Clay Death
07-07-2011, 03:33 PM
well clay warrior is also not getting the usual mileage off his forehand wind. it is far more destructive on the average than what we saw at wimby for instance.

he hit those 2 good ones in the very first game and then was essentially never to be heard from again.

his down the line forehand has to come though for him in order to open the court up against nole.

at wimby he returned like shit and that puts you in a hole also right from get go.

again those are things he can fix.

xdrewitdajx
07-07-2011, 04:07 PM
I disagree that he returned like shit, his returning impressed me, especially the last 2 sets. Djokovic was hitting first serves and serving well but still having to play rallies, because Nadal was bringing everything back.

Sophocles
07-07-2011, 04:09 PM
The problem with the fh dtl is that against Nole he's generally not hitting it into enough open court. Because Nole isn't having to run around his backhand he's generally patrolling the centre of the baseline, and being incredibly fast as well, he can get to Nadal's fh dtl more often than not, & when he does, his forehand is incredibly solid & he either hits an angled cc fh to Nadal's bh, eliciting a weak reply, or he hits a wrong-footing fh dtl of his own for a winner.

Johnny Groove
07-07-2011, 05:53 PM
I disagree that he returned like shit, his returning impressed me, especially the last 2 sets. Djokovic was hitting first serves and serving well but still having to play rallies, because Nadal was bringing everything back.

Nole's seve in the Wimbledon final was awesome.

Especially the short angled 110 mph slice serve wide on the deuce side. Nadal had to go to the slice every time to return that ball, if he returned it at all, and Djokovic was immediately getting the advantage in the rally. Nadal got burned with that wide serve in the deuce side time and time again in the final.

Action Jackson
07-07-2011, 05:55 PM
Isn't this about Nadal on clay, there are other threads where Nadal/Djokovic match up on the other surfaces is discussed.

hipolymer
07-07-2011, 06:00 PM
If Nadal gets beaten on MC and RG next year then his clay GOAT status will certainly be questioned.

Clay Death
07-07-2011, 06:33 PM
If Nadal gets beaten on MC and RG next year then his clay GOAT status will certainly be questioned.


right.

and in an instant, they will also take away his 6 french opens and all the other significant clay titles.


now go play outside.



its clear that clay warrior has ruined your life.

SERBINATOR
07-07-2011, 06:49 PM
right.

and in an instant, they will also take away his 6 french opens and all the other significant clay titles.



In a WEAK clay era that is...

make him tussle with Nole and just see him get Busted!

makesmewonder
07-07-2011, 06:56 PM
There's no discussion. He's the best.

Clay Death
07-07-2011, 07:01 PM
In a WEAK clay era that is...

make him tussle with Nole and just see him get Busted!

why bother with the rest when you can tussle with the greatest of all time?


fed is a RG champion lest you forget. and how many times is he a runner up there again? he has won hamburg a few times and even has pocketed madrid masters.

on the other hand, you probably cant see anything but nole at the moment anyway.

they were all there at RG but only one emerged. expect the same next year.

Super Djoker
07-08-2011, 11:26 AM
Monte Carlo is true clay. RG is a hard court with clay dust on it. Nadal is unstoppable at MC, players struggle to get games off him. RG is far more open because it was sped up. If all clay court season was played on MC clay, Nadal would never lose a match.

Your talking Bull! the Clay at Montie Carlo is awful, it comes flying of the court ! infact it,s probebly the worst Clay Court there is at the top,we all know that, GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ARSE! Nadal being unbeatabul on Clay is a myth Novak proved it by toppling him easily twice! Isner also took 2 sets of him at the French, and Fed got 1!

GSMnadal
07-08-2011, 11:43 AM
In a WEAK clay era that is...

make him tussle with Nole and just see him get Busted!

You do realize that your precious Novak was there too to witness Nadal dominate everyone for 6-7 years on clay? And got crushed something like 10 times by the UNDISPUTED king of clay...

GSMnadal
07-08-2011, 11:47 AM
Your talking Bull! the Clay at Montie Carlo is awful, it comes flying of the court ! infact it,s probebly the worst Clay Court there is at the top,we all know that, GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ARSE! Nadal being unbeatabul on Clay is a myth Novak proved it by toppling him easily twice! Isner also took 2 sets of him at the French, and Fed got 1!

You don't have to be unbeatable to be the best!

And you know he's the best when you start talking about him losing sets on the way to his RG title as one of the worst things on his clay resumé.

Super Djoker
07-08-2011, 11:56 AM
You don't have to be unbeatable to be the best!

And you know he's the best when you start talking about him losing sets on the way to his RG title as one of the worst things on his clay resumé.

Lost to Novak Twice in straights in Masters Finals , ON CLAY!

GSMnadal
07-08-2011, 12:07 PM
Lost to Novak Twice in straights in Masters Finals , ON CLAY!

WOW! Two losses in masters finals in a row! I'm shocked! We should downgrade this mug and remove him from all history books!

Name someone who doesn't have two losses on clay then... Rafa's achievements on clay are so much bigger than anyone else's, it's unreal. Borg is the only one who comes close, and that is only based on his FO's, he was much worse than Rafa on clay outside Roland Garros.

Super Djoker
07-08-2011, 12:13 PM
WOW! Two losses in masters finals in a row! I'm shocked! We should downgrade this mug and remove him from all history books!

Name someone who doesn't have two losses on clay then... Rafa's achievements on clay are so much bigger than anyone else's, it's unreal. Borg is the only one who comes close, and that is only based on his FO's, he was much worse than Rafa on clay outside Roland Garros.

It,s 4 loses in a row in masters finals! Keep up!

GSMnadal
07-08-2011, 12:14 PM
It,s 4 loses in a row in masters finals! Keep up!

It's a discussion about CLAY achievements, smartass

Jamoz
07-08-2011, 12:14 PM
Nadal is great, but even he can't be on top forever, it's just life... When you reach the top, the only way is down and it happens sooner or later (same goes with a top bands)

Super Djoker
07-08-2011, 12:15 PM
I know 2 on Clay but in all he,s lost his last 4 finals in Masters!

GSMnadal
07-08-2011, 12:15 PM
I know 2 on Clay but in all he,s lost his last 4 finals in Masters!

I know that, but I don't see the relevance of that in this thread?

Super Djoker
07-08-2011, 12:16 PM
It's a discussion about CLAY achievements, smartass

Is that Wimbledon still Smarting ! lol

SERBINATOR
07-08-2011, 12:23 PM
You do realize that your precious Novak was there too to witness Nadal dominate everyone for 6-7 years on clay? And got crushed something like 10 times by the UNDISPUTED king of clay...

That was against Nole 1.0

Nole 2.0 would never let him win 6-7 titles and his resume would read 0 Titles had he met this NOLE

No Sergei Brugera, No Guga Kuertan, No Carlos Moya etc in simple words Mug WEAK era he dominated

GSMnadal
07-08-2011, 12:28 PM
Yeah, you Novak tards are right... it's a much smarter thing to judge someone on what he would've achieved if he was able to play at his PEAK level during his entire career, starting from 17 years old, than on what someone has ACTUALLY achieved.

So, you guys still haven't answered my question, but based on your arguments, I believe you're saying that Djokovic is the clay GOAT?

GSMnadal
07-08-2011, 12:32 PM
That was against Nole 1.0

Nole 2.0 would never let him win 6-7 titles and his resume would read 0 Titles had he met this NOLE

No Sergei Brugera, No Guga Kuertan, No Carlos Moya etc in simple words Mug WEAK era he dominated

Don't you think it's a rather bad thing, that a player wasted the first 5-6 years of his career by not even playing at 5% of his abilities?

That's why Nadal is a much greater player than Novak, he was able to play at a very high level, from 19 years old, and actually keep playing at that level.

SERBINATOR
07-08-2011, 12:33 PM
I believe you're saying that Djokovic is the clay GOAT?

Soon to be...

at the moment Guga kuertan holds that tag, Guga played against much tougher Clay Courters in his career...Nadal was just lucky to be at the Right place at the right time (Mug era)

Super Djoker
07-08-2011, 12:36 PM
Nadal is obviously the best on Clay! Having Said that, a few of those years Federer Dominated Grass and Hard courts! at 25 I still think rafa will lose at the french again, to who is anyone,s guess. Maybe Novak, Maybe Muzza! Maybe one of the up and comers like Tomic! His French Sucsess is built on Fitness. As he gets older , we will see him beaten at the French again as he will have to rely on his talent and not his fitness!

SERBINATOR
07-08-2011, 12:36 PM
Don't you think it's a rather bad thing, that a player wasted the first 5-6 years of his career by not even playing at 5% of his abilities?



It's quite clear Rafarts don't understand the basic principal of EARLY and LATE Bloomers...Novak belongs to the latter category

GSMnadal
07-08-2011, 12:40 PM
Nadal is obviously the best on Clay! Having Said that, a few of those years Federer Dominated Grass and Hard courts! at 25 I still think rafa will lose at the french again, to who is anyone,s guess. Maybe Novak, Maybe Muzza! Maybe one of the up and comers like Tomic! His French Sucsess is built on Fitness. As he gets older , we will see him beaten at the French again as he will have to rely on his talent and not his fitness!

At least one of you two has some sense in him.

SERBINATOR
07-08-2011, 12:49 PM
Ofc Rafa is one of the best i am not denying that but i am just pointing at your GOAT claim

Borg had 6 FO when he retired at 25 so god knows how many he would have won if he had stayed ON and it's also true that 90's was a much tougher Clay era..

talking about sense , you say Novak wasted his early years ??? you're DUMB and dont understand the concept of Peak periods

GSMnadal
07-08-2011, 12:49 PM
It's quite clear Rafarts don't understand the basic principal of EARLY and LATE Bloomers...Novak belongs to the latter category

Djokovic isn't a late bloomer. He was a great player from 06/07 on, this is just one of those years that all pieces fall together. If he really is a late bloomer, he needs to be winning slams when he's above 30... if that happens, feel free to quote me on this. Just don't have too high expectations, it'll be a bitter disappointment for you.

GSMnadal
07-08-2011, 12:55 PM
Ofc Rafa is one of the best i am not denying that but i am just pointing at your GOAT claim

Borg had 6 FO when he retired at 25 so god knows how many he would have won if he had stayed ON and it's also true that 90's was a much tougher Clay era..

talking about sense , you say Novak wasted his early years ??? you're DUMB and dont understand the concept of Peak periods

says the guy who claims Novak 2.0 would have destroyed Nadal over those six years on clay. Novak 2.0 is a PEAK thing, and peak periods are temporary, so it would've been impossible to maintain that peak level, that is absolutely needed in order for him to beat an ordinary Rafa on clay...

And, as for your Borg argument, Rafa is also 25, and also has 6 FO. If he quits now, you could say the same thing about him. Would he be better off to call it a day now so he can say that, or is it better to keep fighting for a couple more years, maybe winning 1 or 2 more? Again, you can't judge on would've, should've and could've...

Time Violation
07-08-2011, 01:02 PM
There's really no point comparing how today's Novak would've played against Nadal 6 yrs ago... there's no time machine yet :p

Whether this level is peak or new standard, we shall see soon enough :)

Sophocles
07-08-2011, 01:40 PM
In their last few matches Djoker hasn't had to play his best tennis to routine Nadal.