federer`s service changes??? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

federer`s service changes???

juan27
03-23-2011, 04:40 AM
it`s possible that federer`s service changes since his back`s injury in 2009?????

because I read that, especially the archery of is back

duong
03-23-2011, 10:25 AM
I've seen some changes esp since last year, since he went with Annacone, which according to some are rather tactical changes.

Overall his stats on serve have not decreased but it's true that he kinds of plays it differently, often I have the impression he forces it less.

And also he has long periods of bad services which imo he did not have as many before.

Nadull_tard
03-23-2011, 11:00 AM
I don't think so. He didn't change his serve motion, at least not that noticeably I would remark it. Average serve speed hasn't dropped as well, probably it's just tactics.
Federer has never been a ace machine, nowadays there are some really good returners like Djokovic or Murray, so against them it may look like Roger's serve has fallen apart.

When it comes to play with mediocre players, Fed''s serve is still there and he makes a lot of cheap points, usually Dodger doesn't drop his serve in early rounds so I guess everything is okay.

Halba
03-23-2011, 11:54 AM
definitely down a couple of gears since 2006. immense rhythm in those years. he has lost that serving 'zone' and atleast some 5-10% power.

ApproachShot
03-23-2011, 12:35 PM
Federer in 2009 was hitting some of his hardest serves. I don't think the service motion has changed - it is still notoriously difficult to read - but moreover it can be counterproductive to radically alter the serve at this stage in his career (take a look at Djokovic's failed experiment with Todd Martin for example). I feel that the potency of his first serve has declined somewhat from what it was in 2004-7 and I haven't checked but I would assume that his serving stats have decreased a little. Also during that period his serve hardly ever failed in terms of consistency, but now it seems to have a random propensity to go missing for entire sets.

That said, I think that some of the points above are quite true. It does seem as if he arches his back a little less than he used to do in his younger days but aside from preventing injury to an already troubled back, this could be as he doesn't want to hit it flat out. With the returners in the game today, it is more likely that these kinds of serves will be hit back with interest. I've noticed that rather he has worked on precision, spin and placement recently; for instance he used the slower kick serve out wide to Nadal's backhand very effectively in the final of the WTF.

duong
03-23-2011, 01:06 PM
anyway, it's not at all his main decline which are about his mobility and forehand.

His average stats on serve have not declined, maybe the consistency.

Johnny Groove
03-23-2011, 01:52 PM
I think Federer needs to serve more into the body. Roger aims for corners, and guys like Djokovic and Nadal can take one step or two, stick a racquet out, and get it back deep.

If he serves into the body more, it is more difficult to get out of your own way, which will draw more errors and short balls.

barahmasa
03-23-2011, 02:55 PM
His serve speed hasn't changed?

I don't know what are you guys talking about. His serve speed has realy gone down in last 12 months or so, we rarely see him get serves over 200 km/h (125 m/h) and it used to be a common thing for him; he was always varying speed of his serve during matches but always had a good number of 200 km/h or above serves, I realy don't remember seeing him with those fast serves in the last few months( now it seems that even nadal serves faster than him :o )
And when you say he never was an ace machine, i would disagree on that too, he used to regulary get around 15 or more aces in GS matches, and when the things got tense he would often serve more than 20 aces ( remember nadal in 2007/08 wimb finals, roddick 2009 wimb final, tipsarevic 2008? AO and a lot more of those...) Thats gone too
And he's serve has realy become mediocre and inconsistent, when he's 15-40 down on his serve you dont realy hope he's s gone bang a couple of aces and a couple of service winers, you just now he's gonna lose his serve...

Thats how i see things (and I watch his almost every match), maybe I'm wrong but...

duong
03-23-2011, 03:05 PM
His serve speed hasn't changed?

I don't know what are you guys talking about. His serve speed has realy gone down in last 12 months or so, we rarely see him get serves over 200 km/h (125 m/h) and it used to be a common thing for him; he was always varying speed of his serve during matches but always had a good number of 200 km/h or above serves, I realy don't remember seeing him with those fast serves in the last few months( now it seems that even nadal serves faster than him :o )
And when you say he never was an ace machine, i would disagree on that too, he used to regulary get around 15 or more aces in GS matches, and when the things got tense he would often serve more than 20 aces ( remember nadal in 2007/08 wimb finals, roddick 2009 wimb final, tipsarevic 2008? AO and a lot more of those...) Thats gone too
And he's serve has realy become mediocre and inconsistent, when he's 15-40 down on his serve you dont realy hope he's s gone bang a couple of aces and a couple of service winers, you just now he's gonna lose his serve...

Thats how i see things (and I watch his almost every match), maybe I'm wrong but...

I also have the impression that his serve speed has declined, but I also see that sometimes it's tactical : esp that wide kick serve on ad side which he's often used since last year and which is quite slow.

barahmasa
03-23-2011, 03:13 PM
I also have the impression that his serve speed has declined, but I also see that sometimes it's tactical : esp that wide kick serve on ad side which he's often used since last year and which is quite slow.

Maybe it is tactical but I don't see that tactic working (except WTF against Nadal). He realy dominated with his serve when he hit them bigger,even the guys like nadal and djokovic, now he's struggling and doesn't get many free points on his service games. I don't know why is slowing down his serve when it doesn't work, sampras served pretty much the same in his old days as he did during his prime...

duong
03-23-2011, 03:56 PM
Maybe it is tactical but I don't see that tactic working (except WTF against Nadal). He realy dominated with his serve when he hit them bigger,even the guys like nadal and djokovic, now he's struggling and doesn't get many free points on his service games. I don't know why is slowing down his serve when it doesn't work, sampras served pretty much the same in his old days as he did during his prime...

yes yes I had the same wonders sometimes, I thought it was a physical problem but heard it was tactical :shrug:

Sometimes I could see the interest but most of the time I would just prefer him to go for it, my God :lol:

Also because it doesn't seem to help his first serve percentage, which would be a good reason for that but not really.

Anyway I don't miss his past serve, only his past movement and forehand :sad:

LawrenceOfTennis
03-23-2011, 03:58 PM
maybe a little bit, i cannot see any significant changes. He's of course less flexible now than in 09.

timafi
03-23-2011, 04:21 PM
his serve is utter shit nowadays:help:

rofe
03-23-2011, 04:30 PM
his serve is utter shit nowadays:help:

This. You could rely on him to serve at least one or two good 1st serves during a pressure situation like 15-40 but nowadays you tend to wait for the inevitable break.

I don't know if it is due to motion change or changes between the ears or a bit of both but he is unable to rely on it when he needs it the most.

I concur with Johny that he definitely needs to add more body serves to his arsenal.

barahmasa
03-23-2011, 04:30 PM
Anyway I don't miss his past serve, only his past movement and forehand :sad:

Well those things are usualy affected by the age factor so I can understand the fall in that department;
The serve usualy stays very musch the same even when the players are long past their prime, that's why i don't undestand his crapy new serve. But the serve is also affected by psychological factors, self belief is very important for the good serve, i think that's the area where his problems with serve start.
I hope there are no problems with his body that contribute too...

duong
03-23-2011, 04:50 PM
I hope there are no problems with his body that contribute too...

he had said his back was OK this year.

I concur with Rofe that it may be mental but it may be as well be because he has not correctly adapted to some new tactics which apparently he has tried.

From what I remember reading these new tactics did both aim at adapting to his opponents and at saving his back.

Serve may be fragile as Djokovic knows :lol:

Nadull_tard
03-23-2011, 05:15 PM
I think we should also add to our consideration that practically all surfaces have slowed down. Of course the change of speed on grass was the most remarkable, but HC are also much slower than they used to be in Fed's Era, for instance the decision to rule out carpet from ATP Tour and apply hard instead.
The other thing is, Roger hasn't dealt with so many good returning baseline pushers at prime-time, so his serve worked more effectively. I'm not sure Roger's back problem is a factor here, I would link it more to self-confidence, in indoor season Fed's serve worked almost perfectly, he was shooting 10 and more aces in a single match.
I suppose Federer is declining simultaneously in all departments and serve decrease is just the most emphasized due to style of play.

barahmasa
03-23-2011, 05:30 PM
I think we should also add to our consideration that practically all surfaces have slowed down. Of course the change of speed on grass was the most remarkable, but HC are also much slower than they used to be in Fed's Era, for instance the decision to rule out carpet from ATP Tour and apply hard instead.
I'm not sure that surfaces were slowed down in the last 5 years

The other thing is, Roger hasn't dealt with so many good returning baseline pushers at prime-time, so his serve worked more effectively.

Well he faced Nadal and djokovic and aced them and dominated them with the serve much more often than today

duong
03-23-2011, 05:35 PM
I'm not sure that surfaces were slowed down in the last 5 years


Fed in an interview recently noticed that Miami's surface in particular was notably slower than in the past, and I had the same impression with my eyes.

I'm not sure Roger's back problem is a factor here

it was one from time to time in recent years, according to Fed's words, recently he said it was good but well, I don't think he's relieved with that forever.

Vida
03-23-2011, 05:37 PM
what back injury? :p

duong
03-23-2011, 05:41 PM
what back injury? :p

what do you bring in the debate apart stupidity ?

GlennMirnyi
03-23-2011, 05:43 PM
If he changed his motion, he's stupid.

It never works on a professional level.

Vida
03-23-2011, 05:46 PM
what do you bring in the debate apart stupidity ?

your response ;)

relax.

Vida
03-23-2011, 05:50 PM
If he changed his motion, he's stupid.

It never works on a professional level.

yes it does if you want to improve rest of your game :D

itd be interesting to see how fed would fare on the day to day basis, with serving woes like those djoker had last year.

because serve is a big weapon for him, I reckon poorly.

samanosuke
03-23-2011, 05:52 PM
what do you bring in the debate apart stupidity ?

your response ;)

relax.

duong, you see now that you will achieve nothing with politeness ;)

nice to see more decisive attitude :D

this is the way how to dominate in ZOO

GlennMirnyi
03-23-2011, 05:56 PM
yes it does if you want to improve rest of your game :D

itd be interesting to see how fed would fare on the day to day basis, with serving woes like those djoker had last year.

because serve is a big weapon for him, I reckon poorly.

Let me see if I can make my point clearer. Professional tennis players develop their technique during their teens. They simply can't easily change it afterwards. Therefore, it would be absolutely stupid for a guy with almost flawless serve technique like Shankerer to mess his technique up. Fakervic is a bit of an example. He tried to change his serve and it certainly didn't work.

Players can certainly adapt without trying to change technique, something almost impossible for a 30 year-old pro.

Vida
03-23-2011, 06:26 PM
Let me see if I can make my point clearer. Professional tennis players develop their technique during their teens. They simply can't easily change it afterwards. Therefore, it would be absolutely stupid for a guy with almost flawless serve technique like Shankerer to mess his technique up. Fakervic is a bit of an example. He tried to change his serve and it certainly didn't work.

Players can certainly adapt without trying to change technique, something almost impossible for a 30 year-old pro.

sure he'd be a stupid f moron to change that serve. but hypothetically, if he were to change it drastically, or if he were forced to change it drastically due to injury or, whatever. if somebody kidnapped mirka and blackmailed him...

... would be interesting to, in a way, gauge how much does he really rely on serve, as opposed to his ground game :shrug:

cause, there is a bit of a dubiousness about how big of a 'weapon' feds serve is to him. I read recently, for instance, some article counting major weapons of top guys. it said nadals forehand, feds serve etc - I always though its the forehand that really stands out to fed. there are many great servers out there, and while feds excellent, I wouldnt say its THE weapon.

I guess, the only way to reach a correct conclusion on that, even for the sake of pissing contest, would be to imagine fed playing, say, half a season with a broken serve. or we can kidnap mirka or whatever.

GlennMirnyi
03-23-2011, 06:33 PM
sure he'd be a stupid f moron to change that serve. but hypothetically, if he were to change it drastically, or if he were forced to change it drastically due to injury or, whatever. if somebody kidnapped mirka and blackmailed him...

... would be interesting to, in a way, gauge how much does he really rely on serve, as opposed to his ground game :shrug:

cause, there is a bit of a dubiousness about how big of a 'weapon' feds serve is to him. I read recently, for instance, some article counting major weapons of top guys. it said nadals forehand, feds serve etc - I always though its the forehand that really stands out to fed. there are many great servers out there, and while feds excellent, I wouldnt say its THE weapon.

I guess, the only way to reach a correct conclusion on that, even for the sake of pissing contest, would be to imagine fed playing, say, half a season with a broken serve. or we can kidnap mirka or whatever.

Kidnapping Mirka Ono would do more good than bad for Shankerer.

Well, his serve has always been an important facet of his game. During his peak years, not so much, as he moved so effortlessly he had a very distinct advantage over his opponents. During his decline, his serve kept him at the top, but I think his main issue with his serve nowadays is mental not physical. As someone has pointed out somewhere in this thread, you can rarely count on Shankerer to come back from double, triple break points like he used to do, mainly with his serve. I don't have any data to back this next assertion but I feel his first serve percentage has clearly dropped.

duong
03-23-2011, 07:07 PM
As someone has pointed out somewhere in this thread, you can rarely count on Shankerer to come back from double, triple break points like he used to do, mainly with his serve. I don't have any data to back this next assertion but I feel his first serve percentage has clearly dropped.

1. his first serve percentage has not dropped, until 2010 at least : always around 62%

2. he saved more break points from 2008 to 2010 (between 68 and 69%) than in 2005 (64%) and 2007 (66%), although he played more on clay in that time and although he saved 70% of them in 2006 (where he played a lot on clay as well ;) )

3. I've seen him come back from 0-40 or 15-40 very often, esp in recent years, but of course the impressions are always dominated by the "big matches"

4. for Vida : I don't know how long you have watched Federer in the past, but in his best years he clearly didn't need much his serve to dominate : in that time, he had a great forehand especially (it shows with the stats for points won on second serve especially) and yes, this forehand was his main weapon although yes, Nadal also has a great forehand :shrug:

PS for Vida : I was relaxed , wanted to avoid trolling and another debate on "oh my God he's not injured, he looks for excuses" well you had fun but it's childish :rolleyes: I prefer the rest of the debate including your modest next contribution ;)

Johnny Groove
03-23-2011, 07:19 PM
Let me see if I can make my point clearer. Professional tennis players develop their technique during their teens. They simply can't easily change it afterwards. Therefore, it would be absolutely stupid for a guy with almost flawless serve technique like Shankerer to mess his technique up. Fakervic is a bit of an example. He tried to change his serve and it certainly didn't work.

Players can certainly adapt without trying to change technique, something almost impossible for a 30 year-old pro.

Bullshit. Look no further than Nadal's serve changes from 2005 to now and every year in between. It seemed like every tournament his serve motion was tweaked.

GlennMirnyi
03-23-2011, 07:25 PM
1. his first serve percentage has not dropped, until 2010 at least : always around 62%

2. he saved more break points from 2008 to 2010 (between 68 and 69%) than in 2005 (64%) and 2007 (66%), although he played more on clay in that time and although he saved 70% of them in 2006 (where he played a lot on clay as well ;) )

3. I've seen him come back from 0-40 or 15-40 very often, esp in recent years, but of course the impressions are always dominated by the "big matches"

4. for Vida : I don't know how long you have watched Federer in the past, but in his best years he clearly didn't need much his serve to dominate : in that time, he had a great forehand especially (it shows with the stats for points won on second serve especially) and yes, this forehand was his main weapon although yes, Nadal also has a great forehand :shrug:

PS for Vida : I was relaxed , wanted to avoid trolling and another debate on "oh my God he's not injured, he looks for excuses" well you had fun but it's childish :rolleyes: I prefer the rest of the debate including your modest next contribution ;)

1. I'm talking matches against top players. His serve percentage against Andujar doesn't count.

2. That actually reinforces my point: he served better and had fewer break points against him back then.

3. Very often? Against whom? I doubt it.

Bullshit. Look no further than Nadal's serve changes from 2005 to now and every year in between. It seemed like every tournament his serve motion was tweaked.

Nadull has never changed his serve. :rolleyes:

Fanboyism kills people's capacity of analysis.

duong
03-23-2011, 07:27 PM
3. Very often? Against whom? I doubt it.



I've watched all of his matches and often saw him play bad first points without concentration to come back being led 0-40 or 15-40.

Vida
03-23-2011, 07:44 PM
there was recently on mtf, quite amazingly, an excellent point - feds main weapon isnt the forehand or the serve, its the serve holds. I was shocked frankly - and I agree.

so its the package, rather than a single element in game, that is basically a weapon with fed. kind of an 'extended serve'.

so beside the 'pure' technique on the serve itself, with the 'hidden' toss & swing combo, spin, slice, kick options that hes got, power as well - its what comes after the serve, with the forehand.

PLUS, and this is rarely said, its the quickness of the serve execution. thats a major thing with feds s games, I reckon, that has a mental aspect incorporated there. the other guy literally doesnt know what hit him :shrug: I cant think of any player that has a quicker serve than fed, from the towel to the point-ending shot.

and that might actually explain the dip in results, that exists despite serve stats, which, we see, are similar to 'peak' fed.

he got so used to 'roll' on his service game, so much that he hasnt build the mental mechanics (to call it that) to digest the changed circumstances - both down to him (physical stuff, losses of concentration...), and both down to his opponents, who are improving rapidly.

and all of THAT might have something to do with the cold fact that fed has lost to ONLY one guy this year, while we're like wtf man, get a grip!?!

Nadull_tard
03-23-2011, 07:46 PM
This whole "coming back from 0-40 down at own serve games" stuff is connected with overall mental and physical form. I think it has nothing to do with serve decrease as a part of tennis craft caused by running of time.
Look at AO 2010, I mean especially the face off against Davydenko. In the fourth set Federer managed to save couple of crucial break points despite Denko was really fired up for that game and felt he can drag that match out to 5 sets. In general, Roger wasn't serving like a beast there, compared to Paris or WTF, but he was mentally tough and what I'm trying to point out is Fed's service form derives mostly from mental attitude not physical issues.

Johnny Groove
03-23-2011, 07:49 PM
Nadull has never changed his serve. :rolleyes:

Fanboyism kills people's capacity of analysis.

Are you on crack or just trolling for fun? He's gone from a platform to pinpoint stance for one thing, not to mention many other tweaks.

tbFPE1NYFr8

w0DURtldaCU

So yes, it can be done.

Nadull_tard
03-23-2011, 07:54 PM
Get the fuck out with this Nadal shit, we are having a conversation about FEDERER'S SERVE here.... :retard:

Johnny Groove
03-23-2011, 07:56 PM
Get the fuck out with this Nadal shit, we are having a conversation about FEDERER'S SERVE here.... :retard:

I was proving a point, dumbfuck.

As for Federer, I think he has surely declined, he is not as fast as he once was, but he can still win slams. For Roger, I think it is 90% mental for him. He needs to change his game up, but the guy is so stubborn, and why wouldn't he? He won 16 slams playing his way, I doubt he'll change now.

duong
03-23-2011, 07:57 PM
he got so used to 'roll' on his service game, so much that he hasnt build the mental mechanics (to call it that) to digest the changed circumstances - both down to him (physical stuff, losses of concentration...)

I'm usually interested in this matter of rhythms and think some players should take more of their time before serving in some circonstances, but I never had the impression it was a specific problem for Fed, or for Roddick for instance : it seems that they can go to the next point and be able to play a point with variety and some point construction without taking too much time to recover from past situation.

I don't think it's a mental problem but yes, for instance he sometimes missed some crucial forehands after his serves when he went for them but it was more of a problem of mobility imo because footwork is crucial in that kind of points.

PS : please avoid trying to bring Djokovic and the "overall improvement of the opponents" in that debate again and again, if you're not interested in Fed then just don't speak here :rolleyes:

Vida
03-23-2011, 08:10 PM
I'm usually interested in this matter of rhythms and think some players should take more of their time before serving in some circonstances, but I never had the impression it was a specific problem for Fed, or for Roddick for instance : it seems that they can go to the next point and be able to play a point with variety and some point construction without taking too much time to recover from past situation.

I don't think it's a mental problem but yes, for instance he sometimes missed some crucial forehands after his serves when he went for them but it was more of a problem of mobility imo because footwork is crucial in that kind of points.

PS : please avoid trying to bring Djokovic and the "overall improvement of the opponents" in that debate again and again, if you're not interested in Fed then just don't speak here :rolleyes:

you cant forbid me to post in here so no point in asking on what or where to post. not only is it utterly futile, its childish, and kids can rarely have a serious conversation, which is what you desire. so better just drop it, and deal with whats coming to you.

anyway, now that we've touched on the subject, its worth pointing out that, at least imo, that what we're dealing with here - feds serve - and what is inseparately related to whats 'going on' (read: feds, and thus the others, present form/results), is also inseparately related to what the other guys are doing - be it djoker, nadal, or any other joe.

and so I say - why are we so concerned with feds serve/game - when the guy has had an incredible score this year - 3 matches lost, but only to one guy.

is that good or bad - and what does it mean?

the answer lays somewhere in here: technique, mentality.

and be f sure, it aint all down to fed, cause fed aint the only one playing the game.

GlennMirnyi
03-23-2011, 08:14 PM
Are you on crack or just trolling for fun? He's gone from a platform to pinpoint stance for one thing, not to mention many other tweaks.

tbFPE1NYFr8

w0DURtldaCU

So yes, it can be done.

No he hasn't.

Sorry to break the news for you.

duong
03-23-2011, 08:15 PM
you cant forbid me to post in here so no point in asking on what or where to post. not only is it utterly futile, its childish, and kids can rarely have a serious conversation, which is what you desire. so better just drop it, and deal with whats coming to you.

never intended to forbid you from posting :shrug:

but if you go there I don't think warning for trolling is childish, it just helps staying on the topic :shrug:

anyway, now that we've touched on the subject, its worth pointing out that, at least imo, that what we're dealing with here - feds serve - and what is inseparately related to whats 'going on' (read: feds, and thus the others, present form/results), is also inseparately related to what the other guys are doing - be it djoker, nadal, or any other joe. .

I disagree : I don't need to watch Fed against these players to see all has been said in this thread about Fed's serve.

I watch all of Fed's matches, maybe it's not your case but I can tell you that all of the problems we've talked about are visible in many matches, not only the ones you talk about.

juan27
03-23-2011, 08:43 PM
I think that speed and power of their service declined slightly.....

but it is true that the surfaces are growing slower.

if you add that the surfaces are more slower and above that federer`s service decreased, is further complicated

zeleni
03-23-2011, 08:57 PM
He should change it. Nole reads it like an open book.

barahmasa
03-23-2011, 09:09 PM
He should change it. Nole reads it like an open book.

Even if he didn't read it well a 185 km/h serve (the average speed of the new fed serve as it seems to me) is not so hard to return for a good returner if the serve is not extremly well placed

Arakasi
03-23-2011, 09:30 PM
For me the worrying thing about the Federer serve is that his clutchness seems to be all but gone. In the past, 15-40 down you could almost guarantee two aces/service winners. Now he rarely hits even one ace when in this position.

I dug up some of his stats from earlier seasons and this suggests the same thing.

AO 2008 - 4.5 aces per set
AO 2009 - 3.4 aces per set
AO 2010 - 2.5 aces per set
AO 2011 - 2.2 aces per set

Indian Wells 2008 - 2.9 aces per set
Indian Wells 2009 - 1.9 aces per set
Indian Wells 2011 - 1.7 aces per set

These figures don't include service winners and I think those numbers have probably fallen even more drastically.

duong
03-23-2011, 09:39 PM
For me the worrying thing about the Federer serve is that his clutchness seems to be all but gone. In the past, 15-40 down you could almost guarantee two aces/service winners. Now he rarely hits even one ace when in this position.

I dug up some of his stats from earlier seasons and this suggests the same thing.

AO 2008 - 4.5 aces per set
AO 2009 - 3.4 aces per set
AO 2010 - 2.5 aces per set
AO 2011 - 2.2 aces per set

Indian Wells 2008 - 2.9 aces per set
Indian Wells 2009 - 1.9 aces per set
Indian Wells 2011 - 1.7 aces per set

These figures don't include service winners and I think those numbers have probably fallen even more drastically.

thanks it's interesting : it's a pity that the ATP doesn't give stats about the % of unreturned serves : they only give the number of aces and the number of matches, which says nothing :shrug: