Saving Private Manning [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Saving Private Manning

Kiedis
03-20-2011, 04:03 PM
Some good readings to awake some sleeping consciousness in the United States, once a beacon of freedom and democracy, now a state of terror and repression.

First for those who don't know who is the human right's hero Brad Manning.

http://estaticos02.cache.el-mundo.net/america/imagenes/2011/03/06/estados_unidos/1299434542_0.jpg

This boy takes nearly a year and a half being tortured (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/11/stripped-naked-bradley-manning-prison)because he provided evidence of war crimes in Iraq by the U.S. Army (http://wlcentral.org/node/1494). For being a man of honor and be aware of the horror he faces a death penalty (Manning faces new charges, possible death penalty). But now in America is better to commit a war crime than expose one (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/medea-benjamin/under-obama-better-to-com_b_832191.html). Great stuff from the Peace Nobel prize :o

Amnesty International condemns ‘inhumane’ treatment of Bradley Manning (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/24/amnesty-international-condemns-inhumane-treatment-bradley-manning/)

Letter to president Obama signed by Rosanne Cash, Daniel Ellsberg, Shepard Fairey, Danny Glover, Jane Hamsher, Tom Morello, Viggo Mortensen, Michael Stipe, Michael Rattner, The Center for Constitutional Rights, Government Accountability Project, Center for Constitutional Rights and Amnesty International to asking him to stop torture the soldier Manning (http://bradleymanningadvocacyfund.org/2011/03/18/letter-to-president-obama/).

Why Bradley Manning Is a Patriot, Not a Criminal: An Opening Statement for the Defense of Private Manning (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chase-madar/why-bradley-manning-is-a-_b_821378.html)

The US State Department spokesman has been forced to resign after calling the treatment of a US solider accused of leaking documents to WikiLeaks “stupid.” (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william-astore/im-proud-of-pj-crowley_b_835119.html)

Please sign for the liberation of Brad Manning and donate to help pay his legal defense (http://www.bradleymanning.org/).

Supports all soldiers who refuse to act as war criminals (http://www.couragetoresist.org/)

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buddyholly
03-20-2011, 04:10 PM
A traitor by any other name is still a traitor.

Kiedis
03-20-2011, 04:33 PM
A traitor by any other name is still a traitor.

Oh, the resident teabagger of MTF supporting the torture and the war crimes, what a surprise! :rolleyes:

Shame on you for use words like democracy or human rights, because you do only when it suits you. Well, I don't expected anything better from another hypocrite teabagger :wavey:

Scotso
03-20-2011, 06:19 PM
He's no hero, he broke the law and put people in jeopardy.

Still, the way they're treating him is reprehensible.

Filo V.
03-20-2011, 06:23 PM
He's not a hero, but he's not a villain. Also, the treatment he is receiving is inhumane and America is supposedly about being innocent until proven guilty, and due process. Instead they are torturing him. And yes, I hate being this guy but I definitely do believe his sexuality has something to do with it.

buddyholly
03-20-2011, 06:26 PM
Oh, the resident teabagger of MTF supporting the torture and the war crimes, what a surprise! :rolleyes:

Shame on you for use words like democracy or human rights, because you do only when it suits you. Well, I don't expected anything better from another hypocrite teabagger :wavey:

Replies that veer off topic to criticise the poster are starting to bore me. I have no more time for people who think every different opinion to theirs is the wrong one, but can't say why. It indicates a brain stuck in a single gear. I suspect that subconciously they think that if they label someone as being undesirable, then they alleviate themselves from the responsibility of having to make an intelligent argument.

When Amnesty International has campaigned for every single political prisoner held in - oh, let's say Zimbabwe,
then they could get around to Private Manning, who is no doubt being held in comparative luxury. I haven't seen any accounts of any treatment that I would consider torture. Humiliation, yes, but torture is not a word to be used lightly, otherwise real torture becomes confused with harassment, which is an insult to those people in prisons around the world who are being beaten and abused daily.

I am a dedicated pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, anti-gun, militant atheist. Hardly teabagger material. I prefer coffee, but not a Zimbabwean roast.

Kiedis
03-20-2011, 07:26 PM
Replies that veer off topic to criticise the poster are starting to bore me. I have no more time for people who think every different opinion to theirs is the wrong one, but can't say why. It indicates a brain stuck in a single gear. I suspect that subconciously they think that if they label someone as being undesirable, then they alleviate themselves from the responsibility of having to make an intelligent argument.

When Amnesty International has campaigned for every single political prisoner held in - oh, let's say Zimbabwe,
then they could get around to Private Manning, who is no doubt being held in comparative luxury. I haven't seen any accounts of any treatment that I would consider torture. Humiliation, yes, but torture is not a word to be used lightly, otherwise real torture becomes confused with harassment, which is an insult to those people in prisons around the world who are being beaten and abused daily.

I am a dedicated pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, anti-gun, militant atheist. Hardly teabagger material. I prefer coffee, but not a Zimbabwean roast.

Bradley Manning, the US soldier being held in solitary confinement on suspicion of having released state secrets to WikiLeaks, has spoken out for the first time about what he claims is his punitive and unlawful treatment in military prison.

In an 11-page legal letter released by his lawyer, David Coombs, Manning sets out in his own words how he has been "left to languish under the unduly harsh conditions of max [security] custody" ever since he was brought from Kuwait to the military brig of Quantico marine base in Virginia in July last year. He describes how he was put on suicide watch in January, how he is currently being stripped naked every night, and how he is in general terms being subjected to what he calls "unlawful pre-trial punishment".

It is the first time Manning has spoken publicly about his treatment, having previously only been heard through the intermediaries of his lawyer and a friend. Details that have emerged up to now have inspired the UN to launch an inquiry into whether the conditions amount to torture, and have led to protests to the US government from Amnesty International.

The most graphic passage of the letter is Manning's description of how he was placed on suicide watch for three days from 18 January. "I was stripped of all clothing with the exception of my underwear. My prescription eyeglasses were taken away from me and I was forced to sit in essential blindness."

Manning writes that he believes the suicide watch was imposed not because he was a danger to himself but as retribution for a protest about his treatment held outside Quantico the day before. Immediately before the suicide watch started, he said guards verbally harassed him, taunting him with conflicting orders.

When he was told he was being put on suicide watch, he writes, "I became upset. Out of frustration, I clenched my hair with my fingers and yelled: 'Why are you doing this to me? Why am I being punished? I have done nothing wrong.'"

He also describes the experience of being stripped naked at night and made to stand for parade in the nude, a condition that continues to this day. "The guard told me to stand at parade rest, with my hands behind my back and my legs spaced shoulder-width apart. I stood at parade rest for about three minutes … The [brig supervisor] and the other guards walked past my cell. He looked at me, paused for a moment, then continued to the next cell. I was incredibly embarrassed at having all these people stare at me naked."

Manning has been charged with multiple counts relating to the leaking of hundreds of thousands of secret US government cables, videos and warlogs from Iraq and Afghanistan to WikiLeaks. The charges include "aiding the enemy", which can carry the death penalty.

The legal letter was addressed to the US military authorities and was drawn up in response to their recent decision to keep Manning on a restriction order called Prevention of Injury (PoI). It means he is kept in his cell alone for 23 hours a day and checked every five minutes by guards including, if necessary, through the night.

The letter contains excerpts from the observation records kept in the brig which consistently report that Manning is "respectful, courteous and well spoken" and "does not have any suicidal feelings at this time".

Sixteen separate entries made from 27 August until the records stop on 28 January show that Manning was evaluated by prison psychiatrists who found he was not a danger to himself and should be removed from the PoI order.


One guy is caged one and a half years without trial, treated as harmful wild animal and a prosecutor calls his death just for telling the truth... and all you have to say about the question is he is a traitor. I'm from Spain. Here the fascist dictator Franco killed and torture thousands of my countrymen using the same excuse: they are traitors. All who don't support war crimes, all those who oppose torture are traitors. Those Germans who opposed and denounced the Holocaust were also tortured, executed and acused of traitors. Ahmadineyad called traitors those who demonstrated demanding freedom. In Cuba there are hundreds of people in jail for denouncing the Castro regime... but the Cuban government says they are imprisoned for being traitors. "Traitor®", the favorite word of fascist over the world.

Kiedis
03-20-2011, 07:39 PM
He's no hero, he broke the law

He broke the law? he has already been convicted? But if he still hasn't been judged... Are you telling me that there is no presumption of innocence in the country 'champion of democracy'? :o

and put people in jeopardy

Why? For allegedly sent to Wikileaks a couple of videos where American soldiers aboard a helicopter playing Counter Strike with Iraqi civilians? Well, in any civilized country they should be the ones who were prosecuted, not Manning. It's clear that America now is a pre-fascist country.

Chip_s_m
03-20-2011, 07:53 PM
He broke the law? he has already been convicted? But if still he hasn't been judged... Are you telling me tha there is no presumption of innocence in the country champion of democracy? :o



Why? For allegedly sent to Wikileaks a couple of videos where American soldiers aboard a helicopter playing Counter Strike with Iraqi civilians? Well, in any civilized country they should be the ones who were prosecuted, not Manning. It's clear that America now is a pre-fascist country.

You fear that the US is a pre-fascist country and yet you disparage peaceful protesters ("teabaggers") whose movement is centered on limited government, a concept that is completely antithetical to fascism?

Kiedis
03-20-2011, 08:15 PM
You fear that the US is a pre-fascist country and yet you disparage peaceful protesters ("teabaggers") whose movement is centered on limited government, a concept that is completely antithetical to fascism?

I disparage the hypocrisy, dude. The corporatocracy system in United States has put your country into a bunch of bloody wars just for oil. The corporatocracy system in United States had granted a $700 billion bailout for the banks. Pentagon are spending more for war than all 50 States combined spend to run the country. FED, a private isntitution, has provided $9 trillion in loans to banks, corporations to discretion (http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/01/news/economy/fed_reserve_data_release/index.htm). Currently working and middle class pays all the taxes and the wealthy and corporations barely pay any in your country.

But are these things that motivate teabaggers protests? Do they ask for the end of wars, less spending on military and stop the aid to large corporations? Are they asking a better distribution in the payment of taxes? No, they aren't. They are protesting against immigrants, against aid to the poor, against the welfare state, against the public health system. How many of them have supported the government's abuse towards Manning? Zero. They ask for his death. I guess they are too busy trying to figure out where Obama was born and shooting Mexicans at the border. The problem in USA is not the government, but the corporatocracy that manages the government. And teabaggers are happy with the corporatocracy. In fact they are their puppets.

Chip_s_m
03-20-2011, 08:51 PM
I don't think you're really following American politics too closely. Here's why:

I disparage the hypocrisy, dude. The corporatocracy system in United States has put your country into a bunch of bloody wars just for oil. The corporatocracy system in United States had granted a $700 billion bailout for the banks. Pentagon are spending more for war than all 50 States combined spend to run the country. FED, a private isntitution, has provided $9 trillion in loans to banks, corporations to discretion (http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/01/news/economy/fed_reserve_data_release/index.htm)

Tea partiers hate this, especially the bank bailouts. This is universal amongst the movement. Any google search will make that clear. Some of the incumbent Republicans ousted in primaries last year were sent packing by the tea party explicitly because they supported the bailouts. You may find specific Republican (and Democratic) politicians who support corporate welfare, but Republicans and the tea party aren't synonymous. In fact, you'll find that some of the most conservative politicians, those who identify with the movement the most, are very much against it. Take a look at senators Rand Paul, Jim Demint, and Mike Lee. They're very much against this crap. As for the FED, take a look at Ron Paul, whom many credit with starting the tea party movement. He's probably been the largest critic of the Federal Reserve of any politician in the last century. He even wrote a book called "End the Fed".

Currently working and middle class pays all the taxes and the wealthy and corporations barely pay any in your country.

Are they asking a better distribution in the payment of taxes? No, they aren't.

Tax rates increase as your income increases and the corporate tax rate is the highest in the developed world (perhaps 2nd highest after Japan?), so I'm not sure where you get this from. Also, unlike most developed nations, the US has no national sales or VAT tax, both of which are regressive, hitting the poor and middle-class the hardest. You'll find that most tea partiers support lowering taxes for everyone.

But are these things that motivate teabaggers protests? Do they ask for the end of wars, less spending on military and stop the aid to large corporations? They are protesting against immigrants, against aid to the poor, against the welfare state, against the public health system. How many of them have supported the government's abuse towards Manning? Zero. They ask for his death. I guess they are too busy trying to figure out where Obama was born and shooting Mexicans at the border.

Actually, their protests are motivated primarily by opposition to increasing government spending and the ever-increasing debt burden. This is why they began popping up following the bank bailouts and during the healthcare debate. Brad Manning just isn't relevant to what is primarily a fiscally-oriented movement.

And anyways, how does "protesting against [illegal] immigrants, against aid to the poor, against the welfare state, against the public health system" make one fascist? Do you even know what fascism is? How can advocating for smaller government be considered fascist when the state is central to the fascist political system? You may not like them, but the tea partiers aren't fascist.

buddyholly
03-20-2011, 11:02 PM
One guy is caged one and a half years without trial, treated as harmful wild animal and a prosecutor calls his death just for telling the truth... and all you have to say about the question is he is a traitor. I'm from Spain. Here the fascist dictator Franco killed and torture thousands of my countrymen using the same excuse: they are traitors. All who don't support war crimes, all those who oppose torture are traitors. Those Germans who opposed and denounced the Holocaust were also tortured, executed and acused of traitors. Ahmadineyad called traitors those who demonstrated demanding freedom. In Cuba there are hundreds of people in jail for denouncing the Castro regime... but the Cuban government says they are imprisoned for being traitors. "Traitor®", the favorite word of fascist over the world.

Really now, you are talking about killing and torturing under Franco, but in the lengthy quote from Manning himself, killing and torture are never mentioned. These words come from the people that are more concerned with smearing the US than with the comforts of any US private. He is just a poster boy to them.

A traitor is someone who provides information to the enemy, knowing he will damage his own country. Assange has stated that it is goal to bring down the US government. That would make him an enemy of the US.

In Iran and Cuba, people are imprisoned for opposing their government, not for betraying their own government. That is not the definition of a traitor. So by trying to relate the arrest of Manning in the US to the imprisonment of political opponents in theocratic or communist states is way off. Having lived in Cuba for so long I soon recognised that every catch-word of Fidel's regime was to cover a lie. Thus, of course, he would call a dissident a traitor, he certainly wouldn't call him a dissident. You could make such a correlation only if Obama imprisoned right wing talk radio hosts. Sounds absurd, right. That is because it is absurd.
Your whole approach is to make absurd comparisons and then say the US is like Iran, Cuba, Hitler and Franco's Spain. Yes, absurd.

buddyholly
03-20-2011, 11:08 PM
He broke the law? he has already been convicted? But if he still hasn't been judged... Are you telling me that there is no presumption of innocence in the country 'champion of democracy'? :o



Why? For allegedly sent to Wikileaks a couple of videos where American soldiers aboard a helicopter playing Counter Strike with Iraqi civilians? Well, in any civilized country they should be the ones who were prosecuted, not Manning. It's clear that America now is a pre-fascist country.

In your first posts you state that Manning illegally provided secret information to the enemy. Therefore I and other posters are going along with your thesis, without seeing the need for a guilty/innocent discussion. But then you also stated that he is being constantly tortured and even Manning himself does not seem to make that claim. So who knows what you consider alleged or proven?

If there were only a couple of videos, that would be different, but there are reportedly hundreds of thousands of items. You have no idea what was in them.

buddyholly
03-20-2011, 11:15 PM
I guess they are too busy trying to figure out where Obama was born and shooting Mexicans at the border.

It really is a waste of time discussing anything with you. What are your numbers on shooting Mexicans at the border? And source? Please don't include Mexicans shooting Mexicans in your tally.

And speaking of your misuse of words, fascist propaganda style, where in the world are people who cross borders illegally referred to as immigrants? I don't know anywhere. I have never heard of a protest against immigrants in the US, it is a country of immigrants.

Scotso
03-21-2011, 12:12 AM
He broke the law? he has already been convicted? But if he still hasn't been judged... Are you telling me that there is no presumption of innocence in the country 'champion of democracy'? :o

I'm not his jury, dude.


Why? For allegedly sent to Wikileaks a couple of videos where American soldiers aboard a helicopter playing Counter Strike with Iraqi civilians? Well, in any civilized country they should be the ones who were prosecuted, not Manning. It's clear that America now is a pre-fascist country.

He named people in dangerous situations. You clearly have no understanding of the scope of everything that was released.

I support openness and I favor a completely non-interventionist foreign policy, but a soldier in our military does not have the right to break the law because he feels something being done is unjust. There are legal ways to change laws and address wrongs. To suggest that anyone can simply avoid a law they think is wrong makes laws completely pointless. And if you think something is so heinous you're willing to break the law to speak out about it, you should be prepared for the consequences of that. (And certainly, he went far beyond exposing just the things he felt were wrong, this guy was purposefully trying to harm the country and our military.)

This is wrong for the same reason vigilante justice is wrong. It's not his call to make. He deserves to go to prison for what he's done, no matter his intentions.

orangehat
03-21-2011, 12:29 AM
more examples for china to ignore the us when the us goes on and on and on and on about human rights.

GlennMirnyi
03-21-2011, 02:44 AM
You fear that the US is a pre-fascist country and yet you disparage peaceful protesters ("teabaggers") whose movement is centered on limited government, a concept that is completely antithetical to fascism?

Limited government is closer to fascism than you think.

Chip_s_m
03-21-2011, 04:48 AM
Limited government is closer to fascism than you think.

Care to elaborate?

GlennMirnyi
03-21-2011, 06:48 AM
Care to elaborate?

Sure.

A limited government can't (or just plainly doesn't want to) protect the weak (the people) from the arbitrarinesses of the powerful (the rich).

Therefore, a "limited" government is a veiled dictatorship, as it lets the elite do whatever they want.

Scotso
03-21-2011, 08:20 AM
Sure.

A limited government can't (or just plainly doesn't want to) protect the weak (the people) from the arbitrarinesses of the powerful (the rich).

Therefore, a "limited" government is a veiled dictatorship, as it lets the elite do whatever they want.

That depends quite a lot on how it's limited. You can have strong rule of law without a bloated bureaucracy.

rocketassist
03-21-2011, 08:32 AM
NID the Americans' hypocrisy shines through again.

If they're gonna torture their own they should keep their nose out of other nations who do it.

Also NID buddyholly with his head up the Yanks' arse as usual.

buddyholly
03-21-2011, 01:37 PM
NID the Americans' hypocrisy shines through again.

If they're gonna torture their own they should keep their nose out of other nations who do it.

Also NID buddyholly with his head up the Yanks' arse as usual.

What torture?

And don't be ridiculous, I have nothing to gain from expressing preference for the North American way of life over that of the land of the ludicrous oh-so British, future king Charlie, binge drinking and curry and chips. I already live it.

What you are referring to would have an example in, say, the Brit Gadhafi fans sticking their heads up the tyrant's arse by sending home the PanAm bomber in exchange for BP oil contracts. Well, you Brits had best duck, because the shit is going to hit the fans.

rocketassist
03-21-2011, 02:12 PM
What torture?

And don't be ridiculous, I have nothing to gain from expressing preference for the North American way of life over that of the land of the ludicrous oh-so British, future king Charlie, binge drinking and curry and chips. I already live it.

What you are referring to would have an example in, say, the Brit Gadhafi fans sticking their heads up the tyrant's arse by sending home the PanAm bomber in exchange for BP oil contracts. Well, you Brits had best duck, because the shit is going to hit the fans.

I'm glad they sent the 'PanAm bomber' (he didn't do it) home so you Yank crybabies kicked up a fuss. Hopefully he lives long and prospers. It'll be even more hilarious if he isn't actually ill. :lol:

Nothing wrong with preferring the American way of life, but there's a lot wrong with defending everything the American governments do and say and you always do that.

buddyholly
03-21-2011, 02:36 PM
I'm glad they sent the 'PanAm bomber' (he didn't do it) home so you Yank crybabies kicked up a fuss. Hopefully he lives long and prospers. It'll be even more hilarious if he isn't actually ill. :lol:

Nothing wrong with preferring the American way of life, but there's a lot wrong with defending everything the American governments do and say and you always do that.

I think it is now very probable that he did, given the information coming from Gadhafi defectors. I am not sure how you know with certainty. Sad that you see hilarity in the deaths of all those British people.

I don't defend everything American governments do and say. It might seem that way on MTF because it just happens that a lot of posters here automatically attack everything the American governments do or say.
And even if I did defend everything American governments do or say, I am at a loss as to why you think I am wrong to do that. It is almost as if you think my right to defend something should be taken away because you disagree with my opinion.
OK, maybe you think I have the wrong opinion on some issues, but that does not mean it is wrong for me to have an opinion that differs from yours. I think that is the attitude of a lot of posters who are a bit confused, even outraged, by the audacity of anyone whose opinion differs from theirs. Facts can be right or wrong. Opinions can just be different.

orangehat
03-21-2011, 02:41 PM
so you by default defend them? :spit:

tangerine_dream
03-21-2011, 03:52 PM
Nothing's more entertaining and revealing than listening to foreigners try to discuss American culture, history, and politics.

more examples for china to ignore the us when the us goes on and on and on and on about human rights.
The day the US government squashes its own people to death under tanks to quell a protest against its government is the day you'll have a legit point.

GlennMirnyi
03-21-2011, 04:40 PM
That depends quite a lot on how it's limited. You can have strong rule of law without a bloated bureaucracy.

Rule of law? :rolleyes:

A limite government doesn't protect its people as it doesn't spend money in social programs, doesn't care about making laws to protect the rights of workers, i.e., a limited government is a dictatorship of the wealthy.

Nothing's more entertaining and revealing than listening to foreigners try to discuss American culture, history, and politics.

The day the US government squashes its own people to death under tanks to quell a protest against its government is the day you'll have a legit point.

:rolleyes:

Torturing is much worse than "squashing people under tanks".

rocketassist
03-21-2011, 04:43 PM
I think it is now very probable that he did, given the information coming from Gadhafi defectors. I am not sure how you know with certainty. Sad that you see hilarity in the deaths of all those British people.

I don't defend everything American governments do and say. It might seem that way on MTF because it just happens that a lot of posters here automatically attack everything the American governments do or say.
And even if I did defend everything American governments do or say, I am at a loss as to why you think I am wrong to do that. It is almost as if you think my right to defend something should be taken away because you disagree with my opinion.
OK, maybe you think I have the wrong opinion on some issues, but that does not mean it is wrong for me to have an opinion that differs from yours. I think that is the attitude of a lot of posters who are a bit confused, even outraged, by the audacity of anyone whose opinion differs from theirs. Facts can be right or wrong. Opinions can just be different.

I don't see any hilarity in the deaths. However there's NO way it took one person to carry out such an in-depth plot, and with the UK and Libya's relations at its lowest, I feel the conviction of him was entirely political.

The families of the British victims believed he never did it. The American families and media who don't have a clue about our justice system just spat their out.

His release for me, was correct, and it's a shame that they will probably never find the real culprits.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3509344.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/mar/31/lockerbie.libyadummy

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208432/A-2m-witness-payment-bogus-forensic-evidence-Pentagon-memo-blaming-Iran-How-Lockerbie-bomber-threatened-Scottish-justice.html

http://finalconflictblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/abdelbaset-ali-al-megrahi-lockerbie.html

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/christine-grahame-lockerbie-bomber--almegrahi-is-home-and-he-is-innocent-14465650.html

tangerine_dream
03-21-2011, 04:58 PM
Torturing is much worse than "squashing people under tanks".
Lolz, sig-worthy Glenn.

fyi, Manning has not been "tortured".

Vida
03-21-2011, 05:03 PM
I followed the story about manning a bit, particularly the part when that lawyer/journalist Glenn Greenwald forced those editors of wired (who first published the chat logs) to confirm (on twitter, btw) that the unpublished parts of manning-lamo chat logs actually do not contain any information on whether assange instigated manning to steal the documents.

it was important because prior to that moment, lamo was farting from his mouth all over the place about what happened, making various contradictionary reports on what manning told him - thus helping to create this lynch atmosphere on both assange and manning, how they conspired and shit.

anyway, terrible, terrible thing that has fallen on young manning, yes its his own 'doing' but there is no malice in his actions - no doubt, and he is far from deserving this treatment he is under. I wish him all the luck.

GlennMirnyi
03-21-2011, 05:17 PM
Lolz, sig-worthy Glenn.

fyi, Manning has not been "tortured".

Torture is the worst kind of violence. It's an extreme form of cowardice and probably the most despicable thing a human being can do to another human being. If you can't grasp that concept, then it really shows how little you know about it.

Of course he has been, as have been all people arrested in Guantanamo, as well.

tangerine_dream
03-21-2011, 05:38 PM
Torture is the worst kind of violence. It's an extreme form of cowardice and probably the most despicable thing a human being can do to another human being. If you can't grasp that concept, then it really shows how little you know about it.
You guys keep throwing around the word "torture", implying that he's being waterboarded or beaten. Post the "torture" he's had to endure: solitary confinement? Having his clothes removed? No exercise? No dessert in his food tray? Yeah, that's much worse than getting your head popped off under a tank.

GlennMirnyi
03-21-2011, 05:53 PM
You guys keep throwing around the word "torture", implying that he's being waterboarded or beaten. Post the "torture" he's had to endure: solitary confinement? Having his clothes removed? No exercise? No dessert in his food tray? Yeah, that's much worse than getting your head popped off under a tank.

Shock treatment, humiliation, ****. That's probably the treatment he's been receiving.

Scotso
03-21-2011, 06:24 PM
Rule of law? :rolleyes:

A limite government doesn't protect its people as it doesn't spend money in social programs, doesn't care about making laws to protect the rights of workers, i.e., a limited government is a dictatorship of the wealthy.

I'm sorry, but you don't have to have socialism to protect people's rights. Any argument to the contrary is just ridiculous.

buddyholly
03-21-2011, 11:33 PM
Shock treatment, humiliation, ****. That's probably the treatment he's been receiving.

Your posts get sillier and sillier. He's not in some stinking Rio prison, you know.

http://philipanema.com/rio-de-jainero-prison/

orangehat
03-22-2011, 01:37 AM
Nothing's more entertaining and revealing than listening to foreigners try to discuss American culture, history, and politics.


The day the US government squashes its own people to death under tanks to quell a protest against its government is the day you'll have a legit point.

Hilarious. you and buddyholly will believe anything you like as long as it falls in line with your ridupiculous right wing ideology.Torture doesn tonly have to be physical. Furthermore, I would like to think of patriot act as unconstitutional and even without it this clearly violates amnesty international's guidelines on how long someone can be held without trial.

I'm sorry, but you don't have to have socialism to protect people's rights. Any argument to the contrary is just ridiculous.

:rolls:

looking after the people isnt socialism.

i love how people love to throw this word around without even knowing what it really means. Even China, arguably the most socialist state there is today, would be screamed at for being capitalist by the original creators of socialism.

it's like liberals all over again. fearmongering by the right is ridiculous.

GlennMirnyi
03-22-2011, 01:54 AM
I'm sorry, but you don't have to have socialism to protect people's rights. Any argument to the contrary is just ridiculous.

Socialism? :haha:

Do you think France, Sweden, Norway are socialist countries?

You Americans have no idea about socialism. National health care is socialism for you. :lol:

Your posts get sillier and sillier. He's not in some stinking Rio prison, you know.

http://philipanema.com/rio-de-jainero-prison/

Brazilian police methods were taught by the School of the Americas and by US consultants during the US-backed military dictatorship. Should we thank you for that.

Scotso
03-22-2011, 01:59 AM
looking after the people isnt socialism.

When you do it with tons of social programs and spending, yes, it is.

The point remains, you don't need social programs to protect the rights of people.

GlennMirnyi
03-22-2011, 02:04 AM
When you do it with tons of social programs and spending, yes, it is.

The point remains, you don't need social programs to protect the rights of people.

Yeah you do.

orangehat
03-22-2011, 02:23 AM
Scotso you have no idea what socialism really is.

Seriously.

ibreak4coffee
03-22-2011, 02:27 AM
i love how people love to throw this word around without even knowing what it really means. Even China, arguably the most socialist state there is today, would be screamed at for being capitalist by the original creators of socialism.

it's like liberals all over again. fearmongering by the right is ridiculous.

:worship:

Now cue the MTF hate mail :haha:

Criticizing the word "socialism" is very easy by the right wing in the US, because they change the definition of what it means depending on what the issue is. But a good rule of thumb is basically anything besides completely deregulated markets is socialism now apparently. Of course, those criticizing "socialist" countries in the US tend to come from states who owe more of their budget and income to the federal government than those left wing blue states, but that's an inconvenient fact that will never be mentioned.

Nor the fact that socialist countries like Sweden, the Netherlands and Canada are just fine the way the are.

As bad as the treatment of Manning apparently is however, the US government has justification to hold him in prison. He knew what he was signing up for when he joined the military.

buddyholly
03-22-2011, 02:31 AM
Brazilian police methods were taught by the School of the Americas and by US consultants during the US-backed military dictatorship. Should we thank you for that.

And sillier and sillier. This defense of Brazil's police and prison system is so pathetic, I'll just let the readers enjoy. Probably without even realising it you are claiming that Brazilians are incapable of thinking or doing anything by themselves.

GlennMirnyi
03-22-2011, 02:36 AM
And sillier and sillier. This defense of Brazil's police and prison system is so pathetic, I'll just let the readers enjoy. Probably without even realising it you are claiming that Brazilians are incapable of thinking or doing anything by themselves.

I think you're incapable of thinking by yourself, as you just spew :bs:, official propaganda and every criticism about anything by anyone becomes an opportunity for you to have a dig at the critic's country. And guess what, you're not even Brazilian. :o

I guess you have a really awful attention span or you just can't discuss anything thoroughly.

buddyholly
03-22-2011, 02:38 AM
Hilarious. you and buddyholly will believe anything you like as long as it falls in line with your ridupiculous right wing ideology.

How often do I see this on MTF? The number of people here that think that if they just call opinions differing from their own ''ridiculous'' they can then declare themselves winners.
Can't you just leave that brainless logic to Charlie Sheen?

orangehat
03-22-2011, 02:40 AM
How often do I see this on MTF? The number of people here that think that if they just call opinions differing from their own ''ridiculous'' they can then declare themselves winners.
Can't you just leave that brainless logic to Charlie Sheen?

I'm not the one who calls other's ideas "silly" without any logical justification :shrug:
I'm also not the one who categorically defends the US's position JUST BECAUSE others on this board attacks them :shrug:

You tell me who's the ridiculous one.

buddyholly
03-22-2011, 02:41 AM
Scotso you have no idea what socialism really is.

Seriously.

Could you give us your definition?

Seriously.

orangehat
03-22-2011, 02:42 AM
Could you give us your definition?

Seriously.

/startmockshock

A yank/yank ass-kisser wants to know what socialism really is! :eek:

/endmockshock

You do know there are such things as google and wikipedia right?

Unless your internet browser is limited to sources provided by fox news, then that would explain where you get your ideas from.

GlennMirnyi
03-22-2011, 02:45 AM
/startmockshock

A yank/yank ass-kisser wants to know what socialism really is! :eek:

/endmockshock

You do know there are such things as google and wikipedia right?

Unless your internet browser is limited to sources provided by fox news, then that would explain where you get your ideas from.

:lol:

buddyholly
03-22-2011, 02:49 AM
I'm not the one who calls other's ideas "silly" without any logical justification :shrug:
I'm also not the one who categorically defends the US's position JUST BECAUSE others on this board attacks them :shrug:

You tell me who's the ridiculous one.

Well, I would say you are. I just love it when people get incensed when someone defends the US. I can almost feel their outrage that such ridiculous behaviour should be permitted in a civilised society.

If you are referring to me calling Glenn's post blaming Brazilian police behaviour on the US silly, then I think I have completely logical justification to use the word.

orangehat
03-22-2011, 02:51 AM
to be more specific: enterprises in "socialistic economies" tend to be state-owned/nationalised. In the original essence of socialism, the government dictates what is produced by each of their enterprises, how much, and the price to be sold for (in a centralized planning economy). Obviously such things don't exist anymore today, where even China with it's centralized planning economy no longer keeping such tabs on it's stateowned enterprises.

Furthermore, socialism is supposed to be a transition phase from capitalism to communism, so undoubtedly you feel that the Scandinavian countries, Canada and others are soon to be on the road to communism :rolleyes:

buddyholly
03-22-2011, 02:51 AM
/startmockshock

A yank/yank ass-kisser wants to know what socialism really is! :eek:

/endmockshock

You do know there are such things as google and wikipedia right?

Unless your internet browser is limited to sources provided by fox news, then that would explain where you get your ideas from.

You are so determined to mock that you did not even notice that I suggested you give us ''your'' definition.

orangehat
03-22-2011, 02:53 AM
Well, I would say you are. I just love it when people get incensed when someone defends the US. I can almost feel their outrage that such ridiculous behaviour should be permitted in a civilised society.

So you take any stand just to infuriate others? Wow, how mature :rolls:


If you are referring to me calling Glenn's post blaming Brazilian police behaviour on the US silly, then I think I have completely logical justification to use the word.

claims buddyholly.

Go look at your previous posts in the non-tennis section. Probably 50% of them have the word "silly" or some other equivalent in them.

orangehat
03-22-2011, 02:54 AM
You are so determined to mock that you did not even notice that I suggested you give us ''your'' definition.

Hilarious once again.

I don't define socialism.

Socialism is defined by philosophers and thinkers.

And most of them agree that it is pretty far off from the "socialism" defined by most American right-wingers

And no, don't try to claim that Sarah Palin can think.

orangehat
03-22-2011, 02:56 AM
Btw, this thread is not about socialism. Can we get back to the topic at hand please?

Thanks.

buddyholly
03-22-2011, 02:59 AM
to be more specific: enterprises in "socialistic economies" tend to be state-owned/nationalised. In the original essence of socialism, the government dictates what is produced by each of their enterprises, how much, and the price to be sold for (in a centralized planning economy). Obviously such things don't exist anymore today, where even China with it's centralized planning economy no longer keeping such tabs on it's stateowned enterprises.



Is that socialism? Not so obvious to me that it doesn't exist anymore . That is a very good description of Cuba, except for the fact socialism has killed all production. Ask any Cuban and he will tell you that the socialist way is for the workers to pretend to produce and for the government to pretend that production figures have been met.

A system that has failed everywhere it has been tried.

buddyholly
03-22-2011, 03:00 AM
Btw, this thread is not about socialism. Can we get back to the topic at hand please?

Thanks.

What a cop-out.

Sarah Palin is an embarrassment. The only good thing about her is that she gives the left wing fits. I mean, you bring up her name out of the blue, when she is totally unrelated to anything we have said. She is on your mind more than mine, obviously.

orangehat
03-22-2011, 03:01 AM
Well if you want to get into such huge technicalities then yes, I suppose it does exist in Cuba (and North Korea). :rolleyes:

I meant any nation that isn't freaking isolated from the world and involved in the global community today does not use this archaic version of socialism any more.

Happy? :rolleyes:

orangehat
03-22-2011, 03:03 AM
What a cop-out.

Forget it, what am I doing talking to you.


Don't argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


:wavey:

buddyholly
03-22-2011, 03:17 AM
Well if you want to get into such huge technicalities then yes, I suppose it does exist in Cuba (and North Korea). :rolleyes:

I meant any nation that isn't freaking isolated from the world and involved in the global community today does not use this archaic version of socialism any more.

Happy? :rolleyes:

There used to be a poster here that used an argument that Communism could not be criticised because nobody had ever seen it practised. He argued that all forms of Communism seen on earth were not the real thing.

You seem to be on the same path. If it can be observed and seen not to work, then it can't be socialism, because socialism works.

buddyholly
03-22-2011, 03:18 AM
Forget it, what am I doing talking to you.



:wavey:

Digging yourself an ever deepening hole?

orangehat
03-22-2011, 03:40 AM
There used to be a poster here that used an argument that Communism could not be criticised because nobody had ever seen it practised. He argued that all forms of Communism seen on earth were not the real thing.

You seem to be on the same path. If it can be observed and seen not to work, then it can't be socialism, because socialism works.

:spit: :spit: :spit:

Your powers of comprehension fail you, my dear.

All I said was that the US right wing loves to call anything they don't agree with socialist, when the policies in question are pretty far away from anything resembling those of China's policies.

China's policies themselves are pretty far off from anything actually "socialistic", in the purest essence of the word.

Hence all I was trying to say is that US right wingers were off their rockers trying to call any policy in the US "socalism".

It's like A barely resembles B where B has a slight resemblance to C, but B is still not really like C, hence it reasons that A is nothing like C at all.

You should go back to primary school and revise your comprehension skills honey.

Or maybe I am wrong and it is your logic skills in question, not your comprehension? :scratch:

Digging yourself an ever deepening hole?

:spit:

Wow that has to be the most pathetic statements ever used to try and make oneself seem superior that I have ever seen. :rolls:

GlennMirnyi
03-22-2011, 03:52 AM
:spit: :spit: :spit:

Your powers of comprehension fail you, my dear.

All I said was that the US right wing loves to call anything they don't agree with socialist, when the policies in question are pretty far away from anything resembling those of China's policies.

China's policies themselves are pretty far off from anything actually "socialistic", in the purest essence of the word.

Hence all I was trying to say is that US right wingers were off their rockers trying to call any policy in the US "socalism".

It's like A barely resembles B where B has a slight resemblance to C, but B is still not really like C, hence it reasons that A is nothing like C at all.

You should go back to primary school and revise your comprehension skills honey.

Or maybe I am wrong and it is your logic skills in question, not your comprehension? :scratch:



:spit:

Wow that has to be the most pathetic statements ever used to try and make oneself seem superior that I have ever seen. :rolls:

The US is still suffering from McCarthyism. Everything even remotely centrist is called socialist and that is worse than devil-worshipping.

orangehat
03-22-2011, 03:56 AM
Actually things were better between McCarthyism and Newt Gingrich.

It was also reasonable during Bush Junior's reign, actually. (bar 911)

It was the period where Newt Gingrich was speaker (liberal is a bad thing? like really?) as well as the period after Obama's election that this neo-fascist side of America seems to have spread.

From Obama is not an American (:rolleyes:) to the whole Muslim fiasco and "White discrimination" in terms of Affirmative action (which exists, but not to the extent that the whites claim. In Fact Asian Americans are probably more disadvantaged than the whites.)

Do I really need to mention the Tea Party and that ridiculous person that is Sarah Palin? Oh and her crazy coalition of course, Michelle Bachmann, that crazy Christine O'Donnell and that Sharon Angle.

Scotso
03-22-2011, 06:15 AM
to be more specific: enterprises in "socialistic economies" tend to be state-owned/nationalised. In the original essence of socialism, the government dictates what is produced by each of their enterprises, how much, and the price to be sold for (in a centralized planning economy). Obviously such things don't exist anymore today, where even China with it's centralized planning economy no longer keeping such tabs on it's stateowned enterprises.

Furthermore, socialism is supposed to be a transition phase from capitalism to communism, so undoubtedly you feel that the Scandinavian countries, Canada and others are soon to be on the road to communism :rolleyes:

There's a difference between the type of government called "socialism" (which isn't really how the term is used anymore) and the different policies called "socialist." There's a reason things are called "socialized medicine" and such. In any case, rather than ranting about semantics, maybe you could actually address the issues.

Scotso
03-22-2011, 06:17 AM
Do I really need to mention the Tea Party and that ridiculous person that is Sarah Palin? Oh and her crazy coalition of course, Michelle Bachmann, that crazy Christine O'Donnell and that Sharon Angle.

It's nice to see that you don't subscribe to the same marginalizing and demonizing tactics you like to criticize the "right" for. :)

fast_clay
03-22-2011, 06:54 AM
Everything even remotely centrist is called socialist and that is worse than devil-worshipping.

sadly that's how i see it... some highly educated people come out of the states... unfortunately the masses eat this shit up when it is spoken...

GlennMirnyi
03-22-2011, 07:11 AM
There's a difference between the type of government called "socialism" (which isn't really how the term is used anymore) and the different policies called "socialist." There's a reason things are called "socialized medicine" and such. In any case, rather than ranting about semantics, maybe you could actually address the issues.

Is Obama a socialist?

orangehat
03-22-2011, 07:32 AM
There's a difference between the type of government called "socialism" (which isn't really how the term is used anymore) and the different policies called "socialist." There's a reason things are called "socialized medicine" and such. In any case, rather than ranting about semantics, maybe you could actually address the issues.

There is so many things wrong with the bold part I don't know where to start.

Socialized medicine isn't even a real term :rolls: You just listen too much to the far right.

In Singapore, where I live, most economists will agree by far that it is probably a free-er market than the US. Apart from the government and the press, the other significant "market" that isn't free is healthcare.

The government subsidizes medicine(for citizens, less so for permanent residents, none for foreigners) as well as forces everyone to buy basic medical insurance.

Does this make Singapore a "socialist" country? Singapore is probably the least "socialist" country in the world. No (or very very limited) social security net due to a mandatory savings scheme (Something like 13% of your monthly income is forced to go into an account kept by the government). No minimum wage. (I believe the rate at McDonalds is SGD$3-5 an hour, which roughly translates to USD$2.50-4 an hour) No unemployment benefits, no nothing.

Helping your citizens out in healthcare does not make you a socialistic country :rolleyes:

It's nice to see that you don't subscribe to the same marginalizing and demonizing tactics you like to criticize the "right" for. :)

Funny, I only recall calling all of them crazy, which many people will agree given the policies they have tried to implement. Sharron Angle with that immigration ad in a state where such a huge minority population exists? If she's not dumb, she's crazy. I havent even begun on how the ad is wrong.

The same can be said for Palin and Bachmann, but I'm going to be lazy and not list them here.

This compared to how the right calls Obama a Muslim/Terrorist/Socialist? Dear lord, I'm really demonizing them, aren't I?

fast_clay
03-22-2011, 07:40 AM
Helping your citizens out in healthcare does not make you a socialistic country :rolleyes:


depending on which historian you talk to, you might even find it is the hallmark of a great state...

GlennMirnyi
03-22-2011, 07:42 AM
Neoliberalism is the great plague the XX century has left us.

Scotso
03-22-2011, 08:23 AM
Is Obama a socialist?

No, but he is a statist and populist. And he supports a few socialist policies.

orangehat
03-22-2011, 10:52 AM
and what exactly are those "socialist" policies?

buddyholly
03-22-2011, 11:51 AM
Your powers of comprehension fail you, my dear.

You should go back to primary school and revise your comprehension skills honey.



What's with the ''my dear'' and ''honey''? Do you think it gives your words a much-needed aura of maturity? Now I can't help but have a mental picure of you as an aging, bleached-blonde, transvestite hooker.

You are still stumbling on claiming that any example of bad government can not be an example of socialism, because socialism is good by definition. But I haven't seen you give an example of good socialism yet.

buddyholly
03-22-2011, 11:58 AM
Does this make Singapore a "socialist" country? Singapore is probably the least "socialist" country in the world.

And there you have it.

One of the great economic success stories of our times is directly linked to being the ''least socialist'' country in the world.

You said it best. End of debate.