Has the game changed in the last two years? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Has the game changed in the last two years?

Nole fan
02-17-2011, 09:42 PM
Says Djokovic:
"I think tennis has changed tremendously since three years back. I was watching the tape of my Australian Open title in 2008 and comparing it to the one today my game has changed, but not just my game I think all the other players game has changed. In a couple of years already. I'm not sure if it's because of rackets and strings, I think it's because they're working harder, putting more hours on the practice courts, they're hitting the ball unbelievably strong, so it's become a very physical game".

I've heard other pros like Federer say that. Is it possible that the game has changed just in two years? And with these changes what direction will the game take in the future? Could it become more physical yet? what are the limits to that?

finishingmove
02-17-2011, 09:48 PM
i bet he was also having a cup of true tea and browsing through his book while he watched that recording :worship:

his game has undoubtedly changed. Nadal has improved as well.

Murray on the other hand seems to have peaked for the 2008 Masters Series :shrug:

rocketassist
02-17-2011, 10:15 PM
Everyone's is still the same IMO

fast_clay
02-17-2011, 10:19 PM
milos has entered the game in 2011... so of course its changed... were are entering the 90's again...

:woohoo:

duong
02-17-2011, 10:21 PM
I don't think so at all.

By the way, I'm surprised when I read Djokovic's fans constantly underrating what he did in 2008 (at least until Wimbledon) as if it was nothing, Djokovic was "immature", etc ...

Esp for Nole's fans to remind them who Djokovic was in 2007 and esp 2008 :

- in 2007 a slam final in the US Open (lost to Fed after 3 very tight sets), two semi-finals in Roland-Garros (to Nadal) and Wimbledon (retires after winning first set against Nadal after 3 incredible matches against Kiefer, Hewitt and esp Baghdatis in 4 rainy days ... was much more convincing that year than last year imo), had lost in R16 of the AO only to Federer, two MS wins in Miami (where he destroyed everybody including Nadal and Murray) and Montreal (3 tight and superb sets won against Federer, after defeating in straight sets Nadal, Roddick and Nalbandian), one MS final, his first one, in Indian Wells, lost to Nadal after crushing Murray

- in 2008 Djokovic won the Australian open destroying everybody in straight sets except Tsonga, reached the semi in Roland-Garros losing only to peak Nadal, won the WTF, reaches US Open semifinal losing in 4 sets to Fed after defeating Roddick, wins Indian Wells (crushes Nadal) and Roma, plays an incredible match against Nadal in Hamburg, reaches the final in Cinci after defeating Nadal in semi, reaches the semi of the Olympics losing only to Nadal ; only failure in Wimbledon losing to Safin but a huge Nadal had terribly hurt his confidence in Hamburg, RG and finally in a great match in the Queens

In my opinion he was great and very regular in 2007-2008, a regularity at top-level which he has not approached since, and I even think that doing again what he did in 2008 might be enough to get to number 1 this year if Nadal is not as good as he was in 2008/2010.

In 2008 both Nadal and Federer were at the top, yet Fed finished a very few points ahead of Djokovic in the rankings in the end of the year.

In 2011 Fed will probably not be as good, and it's not sure that Nadal will be as good as well.

duong
02-17-2011, 10:23 PM
Nadal has improved as well.

it's not clear that Nadal was better in 2010 than in 2008.

At least it is clear to me that his backhand was better in 2008 than it was in 2010.

Clay Death
02-17-2011, 10:28 PM
excellent thread and topic.

the game has changed and continues to change with each passing year.

quite simply put, the game is fast and getting faster by the day. this is true for women as well.

did anybody see petra abuse kim clijsters the other day in france? well you get the picture. she bombed away with her serve and produced lethal pace off the ground. and i mean just punishing stuff off the ground.

the significantly faster game of today and tomorrow will require better and better athletes. and that is the direction the game is headed.

more next time.

Arakasi
02-17-2011, 10:32 PM
I thought '04-'07 was the weak Federer era and '08-present was the strong Nadal era? :shrug:

Perhaps, '04-'07 was the weak Federer era and '08-'10 was the weak Nadal era? Does that mean 2011 onwards is the strong Djokovic era? :eek:

EnriqueIG8
02-17-2011, 10:33 PM
I think Nadal's improvements have led to improvements on his followers too.

Federer needed to improve the backhand, get a coach and play more aggressive.

I also feel that Djokovic plays a lot better right now than he did in 2008.


2011 is going to be a fantastic year. I look forward what Djokovic can do on clay this year.

Mjau!
02-17-2011, 10:45 PM
:tape:

duong
02-17-2011, 10:51 PM
I also feel that Djokovic plays a lot better right now than he did in 2008.


he maybe played a little bit better in the AO semifinal but that's all : overall if you consider all the months before, he was playing better in 2007-2008 and was very regular.

He hasn't played a MS1000 final in all 2010 ! only a slam final and not even the semifinal in RG.

I remember the semifinal in Hamburg 2008 : since when have I seen Djokovic playing that good that regularly as he did in that time ?

abraxas21
02-17-2011, 10:57 PM
I was watching the tape of my Australian Open title in 2008 and comparing it to the one today my game has changed...

:lol:

Henry Chinaski
02-17-2011, 11:06 PM
Says Djokovic:
I was watching the tape of my Australian Open title in 2008 and comparing it to the one today my game has changed,

writing the foreword to his second book.

moon language
02-17-2011, 11:11 PM
The game is always changing as the mix of players is always changing. The more familiar the players become to each others' games the more they develop their own new ways of dealing with their opponents and these tactics leak into their everyday games over time -- they all adapt off of each other. I don't think this is something unique to recent years. Tennis is always changing. Of course equipment changes can play their part too (isn't Djokovic using a different racquet now than in 2008?).

Haelfix
02-17-2011, 11:15 PM
I disagree. I thought 2008 was a very tough year, 2009-2010 were relatively subpar years competition wise and 2011 is shaping up to be a very tough year again.
However the quality of tennis hasn't changed that much in the last 8 years.

Courts have definitely slowed down (the USO10 played ridiculously slow compared to say the USO04) which favors games like Nadal, Djokovic and Murray (eg steady, controlled aggression) but then I don't think their brand of tennis is any sort of epiphany of tennis, it merely has come into its own under the right circumstances.

There are a few players bringing the speed back into the game (eg Del Potro, Raonic, Soderling) but for the most part I think this era is defined by Rafa's brand of baseline tennis. I contrast that a little bit to the Nalbandian, Davydenko, Federer brand of baseline tennis in vogue in mid 2k which is slightly more offensive and less about the power of the rally balls, and more about the quality of shotmaking that finishes the point.

Clay Death
02-17-2011, 11:16 PM
I think Nadal's improvements have led to improvements on his followers too.

Federer needed to improve the backhand, get a coach and play more aggressive.

I also feel that Djokovic plays a lot better right now than he did in 2008.


2011 is going to be a fantastic year. I look forward what Djokovic can do on clay this year.

damn good point as usual from you old warrior.

clay warrior, fed, and the great serbian slayer are forcing others to improve their games.

duong
02-18-2011, 08:09 AM
I thought 2008 was a very tough year, 2009-2010 were relatively subpar years competition wise and 2011 is shaping up to be a very tough year again.

at the top-level I think it's been like that, and especially for Djokovic who was that good and regular in 2008 and even 2007 and has been disappointing ever since. He's been extremely good since Davis Cup but that's only two months : I hope he keeps on, if he was regular like in 2008 then he might get to number 1 this year.

Murray was very good and regular from mid-2008 to mid-2009 and has disappointed then.

Federer has kept on his decline even if he's been better in last 6 months, but well if he had that improved, how have Simon and Robredo and given him so many problems : have they that improved themselves ?

Nadal imo was at his top between mid-2008 and the beginning of 2009 quite like Murray, even though he's had great moments in 2010 they were not as regular as in that period.

About the rest of the players, I think between top-10 and top-30 the period has not been good for at least one year : seeing Llodra and Montanes so highly ranked gives you a good idea, as for Garcia-Lopez he will be between 22 and 24 next monday.

Topspindoctor
02-18-2011, 08:14 AM
it's not clear that Nadal was better in 2010 than in 2008.

At least it is clear to me that his backhand was better in 2008 than it was in 2010.

Serve and flat forehand.

duong
02-18-2011, 08:39 AM
Serve and flat forehand.

yes he has a little bit improved introducing some variety for that, also the slice backhand, but anyway flat shots are not the basis of his game, still now, and his spinned serve and forehand are still the most effective shots of his arsenal, and they were very effective in 2008.

Most of all his backhand and return of serve were weaker for most of the 2010 year than at his best.

Except in Wimbledon where it was great - overall, the only place where he may have played better in 2010 than in 2008 imo is Wimbledon, some might speak of Monte-Carlo : imo he played just as well as in his peak in 2008 imo (and I even think he played better in RG 2008 than in Monte-Carlo 2010), not better.

Nole fan
02-18-2011, 10:13 AM
I think Nadal's improvements have led to improvements on his followers too.

Federer needed to improve the backhand, get a coach and play more aggressive.

I also feel that Djokovic plays a lot better right now than he did in 2008.


2011 is going to be a fantastic year. I look forward what Djokovic can do on clay this year.

Words of wisdom, Enrique. :yeah:

I think you have summarized it perfectly. I believe Nadal set the standard for this brand of tennis and forced the others to improve and compete at higher level.
What Nadal has done is truly remarkable. I also think Federer has forced others to improve but in a different way.
To beat Nadal these days you need to be stronger and faster.
Also big hitters like Del Potro, Soderling or Berdych are forcing the others to get more physical.

scoobs
02-18-2011, 10:15 AM
It's changed in just the last 5 minutes.

finishingmove
02-18-2011, 10:21 AM
5poEREraEs8

Action Jackson
02-18-2011, 10:24 AM
The game has changed thing, no shit that horse bolted years ago.

bokehlicious
02-18-2011, 10:27 AM
Djokovic is spot on here, proof is Fed is today better than ever (amazing footwork, lethal forehand, very solid backhand) and yet struggles to sneak in the top 100... Djokovic 2011 >>>>>>>>>> Federer 2004-2007

Nole fan
02-18-2011, 10:29 AM
Djokovic is spot on here, proof is Fed is today better than ever (amazing footwork, lethal forehand, very solid backhand) and yet struggles to sneak in the top 100... Djokovic 2011 >>>>>>>>>> Federer 2004-2007

I was wondering when would you make an appearance here. :lol:

Sophocles
02-18-2011, 11:18 AM
No it hasn't changed significantly. In 20 years nobody will be talking about the big difference between 2008 & 2011.

duong
02-18-2011, 11:30 AM
When I think backwards of 2008, I can see some technical improvements but also so much tiredness, both mental and physical, from the top-players, as if the seasons were so long and they were tired about tennis : Nadal, Fed, Djokovic, Murray used to be so regular at a top-level, there was one period when you expected them to be always in the end of the draws and they easily won their first round matches, and see what they are now, at least regularity has been lost, they say "they prioritize slams" but yet Murray can lose early in slams, Djokovic didn't reach slam semifinals for a while and faced a 2 sets-to-one and double break point deficit in the US Open against Troicki, even Nadal struggles against Gabashvili, Istomin, Petzschner or Haase in slam first rounds, not speaking of Federer ...

Even behind them, you have all of the guys Davydenko, Roddick, Ljubicic, Nalbandian, Hewitt, Gonzalez, Blake, Haas, Safin ... from whom you could expect a high level and who have all gotten old like "Olderer" and from whom hardly anybody still expects anything of such high value.

Now you have Söderling, Berdych, Tsonga, Verdasco, Monfils but well only Söderling looks to me at the top-level of what these players were, the others look less good to me and not that regular either, even though Berdych has improved his regularity.

Action Jackson
02-18-2011, 11:38 AM
No it hasn't changed significantly. In 20 years nobody will be talking about the big difference between 2008 & 2011.

Instant gratification generation doesn't get it.

Start da Game
02-18-2011, 11:42 AM
no need to stir things up.......

what djokovic might have meant here is the increasing number of tall big hitters at the top of the men's game........del potro winning a slam, players like cilic, berdych, soderling having significant results in the last 2 years........djokovic is naturally under the impression that the game is moving more towards power........

add to that what EnriqueIG8 said........nadal's absence was clearly felt for most part of 2009 and after he changed to new strings at the beginning of 2010, he turned it around like crazy........the serve seemed to improve a lot and he also brought in a few modifications in his forehand with his new strings which help him get more spin.......nadal's improved game forced djokovic and federina to add something new to their games.......

duong
02-18-2011, 12:26 PM
what djokovic might have meant here is the increasing number of tall big hitters at the top of the men's game

mostly Djokovic spoke about him at the Australian open :lol:

For that I think he's right (also Fed, his opponent in SF, played better in 2011 than in 2008), but if you look at the larger scale, the situation is different.

Start da Game
02-18-2011, 12:58 PM
mostly Djokovic spoke about him at the Australian open :lol:

For that I think he's right (also Fed, his opponent in SF, played better in 2011 than in 2008), but if you look at the larger scale, the situation is different.

he also spoke about the game in general.......

Clay Death
02-18-2011, 04:25 PM
affirmative shankar.

its incredible how the haters crawl out of the woodwork to engage in their mindless blind hate. people here have been attacking nole for as long as i can remember.

in terms of sheer class and intelligence, nole has very few equals if any in the sport of tennis.

nole made a great point and one that needs to be discussed.

duong
02-18-2011, 04:31 PM
affirmative shankar.

its incredible how the haters crawl out of the woodwork to engage in their mindless blind hate. people here have been attacking nole for as long as i can remember.

in terms of sheer class and intelligence, nole has very few equals if any in the sport of tennis.

nole made a great point and one that needs to be discussed.

I don't hate Djokovic at all : I just think you shouldn't draw too many conclusions from some short words which imo didn't intend to give a definite conclusion about the game :lol:

laurie-1
02-18-2011, 06:30 PM
Djokovic played excellent in the semifinal and final of the Aussie Open, no question, probably the best I've seen him play.

But the year has just begun. And there was a lot of talk about the balls used during the Aussie Open this year, whether they were a bit larger and heavier. Also, Djokovic was retrieving impossible situations over and over again.

So for me the simple question is, can he keep that up? Or will that phsyicality do for him in terms of injuries somehere down the line.

And will the natural power allied with smooth efficiency win out in the end again? This scenario has happened before hasn't it? Jim Courier dominating with his power game off the ground in the early 1990s then totally eclipsed by a player with natural athletic ability and natural power.

Then in the early 2000s Safin and Hewitt were again taking phsyicality to a new level (in Hewitt's case, his pure ability to run and run and retreive everything). And they were totally eclipsed by a natural athlete with natural power and efficiency.

Will this happen again over the next two years and someone exceptionally talented come through to dominate? Or is the Djokovic / Nadal style the blueprint for the next 10 years? If it is then we will see more and more injuries of the top players.

Clay Death
02-18-2011, 06:39 PM
its a track meet out there. we are already seeing more injuries today than at anytime in the past.

the sport continues to become more and more demanding which requires a better class of athlete to be able to dominate.

Commander Data
02-18-2011, 06:48 PM
The game will improve until the ball moves faster then light disproving Einstein.
This will happen ca. 2017 at current speed.

DrJules
02-18-2011, 07:06 PM
Except for the US Open 2010 when Nadal was exceptional he played better in 2008 than 2010.

The French Open 2008 was probably the best Nadal ever played with players struggling to win games (Verdasco only won 3 games, Alamgro 3 games and Federer 4 games in their respective matches). Although Nadal did not lose a set in 2008 he was neither as impressive or dominant.

At Wimbledon 2008 Nadal only lost 3 sets of which 2 were lost to Federer in the final. During Wimbledon 2010 Haase and Petzchner both extended Nadal to 5 sets (I felt Gulbis taking Nadal to 4 sets in 2008 played better than either Haase or Petzchner. He was not as convincing as in 2008.

Certainly could not see improvement in overall standard in those 2 years.

Comparing the winners with unforced errors Federer vs Djokovic 2008 with 2011 at the AO is interesting:

In 2008 Djokovic hit 50 winners to 32 unforced errors and Federer 38 winners to 32 unforced errors.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/jan/25/tennis.australianopen20082

In 2011 Djokovic hit 29 winners and 35 unforced errors and Federer 35 winners to 44 unforced errors.

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/scores/stats/day16/1602ms.html

I did reflect my feeling that this AO was more about errors than winners compared to previous years.

DrJules
02-18-2011, 07:28 PM
No it hasn't changed significantly. In 20 years nobody will be talking about the big difference between 2008 & 2011.

Totally agree.

Clay Death
02-18-2011, 07:28 PM
are you taking the field into account dr jules?

fed, nadal, and djokovic have forced the field to improve over the last 2-3 years.

DrJules
02-18-2011, 07:33 PM
are you taking the field into account dr jules?

fed, nadal, and djokovic have forced the field to improve over the last 2-3 years.

Yes.

I think Nadal and Federer both went back into the field a little more rather than a general improvement in the level of the field. At the US Open 2010 Nadal played very well and did seem to be moving away from the field again, but since then his level has gone backwards.

duong
02-18-2011, 08:49 PM
Except for the US Open 2010 when Nadal was exceptional he played better in 2008 than 2010.

At Wimbledon 2008 Nadal only lost 3 sets of which 2 were lost to Federer in the final. During Wimbledon 2010 Haase and Petzchner both extended Nadal to 5 sets (I felt Gulbis taking Nadal to 4 sets in 2008 played better than either Haase or Petzchner. He was not as convincing as in 2008.

In Wimbledon 2010, Nadal didn't play well in first week, but he considerably raised his level in second week, where he was "exceptional" imo, from the match agaisnt Mathieu and esp from the second set against Söderling.

I didn't find him exceptional in the US Open 2010 ... and by the way in first week he struggled a lot against Gabashvili and Istomin.

Comparing the winners with unforced errors Federer vs Djokovic 2008 with 2011 at the AO is interesting:

In 2008 Djokovic hit 50 winners to 32 unforced errors and Federer 38 winners to 32 unforced errors.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/jan/25/tennis.australianopen20082

In 2011 Djokovic hit 29 winners and 35 unforced errors and Federer 35 winners to 44 unforced errors.

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/scores/stats/day16/1602ms.html

I did reflect my feeling that this AO was more about errors than winners compared to previous years.

I doubt your "Guardian" stats since I've never seen that good stats for a match between Federer and Djokovic, and this match didn't look that gorgeous to me : I'm not sure winners and unforced errors were counted the same.

But anyway, the conditions in Melbourne were hotter then quicker for the SF in 2008 which may explain more winners.

DrJules
02-18-2011, 09:57 PM
In Wimbledon 2010, Nadal didn't play well in first week, but he considerably raised his level in second week, where he was "exceptional" imo, from the match agaisnt Mathieu and esp from the second set against Söderling.

I didn't find him exceptional in the US Open 2010 ... and by the way in first week he struggled a lot against Gabashvili and Istomin.



I doubt your "Guardian" stats since I've never seen that good stats for a match between Federer and Djokovic, and this match didn't look that gorgeous to me : I'm not sure winners and unforced errors were counted the same.

But anyway, the conditions in Melbourne were hotter then quicker for the SF in 2008 which may explain more winners.

Attached below:

http://www.menstennisforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=136188&d=1201283640


http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=6491012&postcount=325

Sunset of Age
02-18-2011, 10:15 PM
In the last two years? no it hasn't.
In the last ten years? yes it has.

duong
02-18-2011, 10:26 PM
Attached below:

http://www.menstennisforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=136188&d=1201283640


http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=6491012&postcount=325

Thanks a lot :yeah:

13 aces for Djokovic : it shows that the surface was quick and that he DID have actually a very good serve in that time, which was also my impression.

That Djokovic from 2008 was really classy indeed : that's a classy stat against Federer :yeah:

fran70
02-18-2011, 10:27 PM
In the last two years? no it hasn't.
In the last ten years? yes it has.

This :yeah:

Corswandt
02-23-2011, 04:13 PM
excellent thread and topic.

the game has changed and continues to change with each passing year.

quite simply put, the game is fast and getting faster by the day. this is true for women as well.

did anybody see petra abuse kim clijsters the other day in france? well you get the picture. she bombed away with her serve and produced lethal pace off the ground. and i mean just punishing stuff off the ground.

the significantly faster game of today and tomorrow will require better and better athletes. and that is the direction the game is headed.

more next time.

Not a very good example as Kvitova's game is more of a throwback to an earlier era than anything radically new - her good technique and natural timing allow her to take the ball very early and hit it flat and very deep, taking a lot of time away from her opponents without actually having to put that much pace on the ball. It's a sort of game that is most effective on very fast surfaces, of the kind that are being phased out/replaced everywhere on the Tour these days.

The heavy topspin + kick serve clay game of Stosur on the other hand is something we had never seen on the women's game before. It has its limitations due to the technical flaws on other parts of Stosur's game, but the formula is there.

philosophicalarf
02-23-2011, 04:33 PM
But the year has just begun. And there was a lot of talk about the balls used during the Aussie Open this year, whether they were a bit larger and heavier.

They weren't, that was just some crappy myth. They're already as large and heavy as the rules allow, have been for years.

ssin
02-25-2011, 12:48 PM
Ivan Lendl's take:

Although he rarely attends tennis tournaments, Lendl always takes an interest in the latter stages of Grand Slam events. He is hugely impressed by current standards. "Players today are better trained, better fed and better coached," he said. "They have more shots. They can serve better, volley better, they are more complete players. Some of it is down to the modern materials, some of it is training, some of it is diet."

As someone who made hard work and fitness a priority, it is no surprise that Lendl particularly enjoys watching Rafael Nadal. "I admire how he goes out and says: 'OK, to win the US Open I need to improve my serve'. Then he and his uncle go away and work on his serve. And his serve was a great, great weapon [in New York]. That's how you get better. That's how you separate yourself from the rest."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/ivan-lendl-champions-tour-is-bringing-back-a-lot-of-great-memories-2098631.html

Obviously, Lendl's game anticipated modern tennis. He was very much ahead of his time.

Nole fan
02-25-2011, 12:58 PM
Ivan Lendl's take:



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/ivan-lendl-champions-tour-is-bringing-back-a-lot-of-great-memories-2098631.html

Obviously, Lendl's game anticipated modern tennis. He was very much ahead of his time.

Good one. Thanks. :)

MARTINBALDRIDGE
02-25-2011, 01:39 PM
excellent thread and topic.

the game has changed and continues to change with each passing year.

quite simply put, the game is fast and getting faster by the day. this is true for women as well.

did anybody see petra abuse kim clijsters the other day in france? well you get the picture. she bombed away with her serve and produced lethal pace off the ground. and i mean just punishing stuff off the ground.

the significantly faster game of today and tomorrow will require better and better athletes. and that is the direction the game is headed.

more next time.

Completely true IMO - andnwho would be better place to say if it's changed than people who actually compete and play at that level!


I still find it entertaining though.

The Tennis Guy