Why Is Marin Cilic So Hated? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Why Is Marin Cilic So Hated?

Certinfy
10-30-2010, 09:48 AM
:confused:

samanosuke
10-30-2010, 09:52 AM
choking abilities + coolness in missing and loosing

Audacity
10-30-2010, 09:54 AM
Mug

aloniv
10-30-2010, 09:54 AM
Because he's been terrible since the beginning of the year for no apparent reason.

samanosuke
10-30-2010, 10:00 AM
Because he's been terrible since the beginning of the year for no apparent reason.

fail

He was terrible in winning though , but he needed start to loose matches in a row to other see how limited he is , even when he had decent results he wasn't winning because he was playing great . I haven't seen Cilic beating a guy who was playing good match or in form player yet . And these are the reasons why some people are now surprised how bad he is . They haven't seen or didn't want to see how bad he was

leng jai
10-30-2010, 11:50 AM
- Ugly strokes
- Pathetic serve for his height
- Monobrow

Jacques_Ukraine
10-30-2010, 11:56 AM
- Monobrow

:haha:

dombrfc
10-30-2010, 12:06 PM
Because this is MTF. Not really tennis fans just tards who like to just brainlessly say 'mug' to anyone in a slump.

Topspindoctor
10-30-2010, 12:35 PM
Because this is MTF. Not really tennis fans just tards who like to just brainlessly say 'mug' to anyone in a slump.

:secret: You actually need achieve something worthwhile before slumping. Mugin Cilic got taken to 5 by Tomic and beat injured Duck and JMDP on the way to his lone SF.

RIboy
10-30-2010, 12:38 PM
- Ugly strokes
- Pathetic serve for his height
- Monobrow

+1 :lol:

Hellraiser
10-30-2010, 12:43 PM
Bcuz he hasn't style.

dombrfc
10-30-2010, 12:44 PM
:secret: You actually need achieve something worthwhile before slumping. Mugin Cilic got taken to 5 by Tomic and beat injured Duck and JMDP on the way to his lone SF.

He went 17-1 at the start of this year, thats not bad at all.

Extends to a record of 29-6 going back to 2009, dispatching Nadal and Murray without losing a set. Also routined Verdasco and Davydenko. Wins this year over del Potro and Roddick too.

Didnt show much on the clay this year and has been totally unable to recapture any form on hard court. Of course there was the incident with the lad who practised with Cilic who got into medical difficulties...If that affected him i dont know.

He just isnt playing as well as he was 8-12 months ago, pretty simple.

When we was playing well the fans of his naturally talked him up on here, making the following slump more standout.

«Ivan»
10-30-2010, 12:57 PM
:confused:

because hes humble,modest,very nice young gye

Orka_n
10-30-2010, 01:04 PM
Because his face annoys me.

Plus he's a mug at tennis.

orangehat
10-30-2010, 01:35 PM
Really ugly strokes + no variation (how bad is he at the net).

finishingmove
10-30-2010, 02:16 PM
because hes humble,modest,very nice young gye

:worship:

Guy Haines
10-30-2010, 02:27 PM
Because the same posters make the same douchebag remarks with each loss in his pathetic downward spiral, because he beat a lot of people's faves when he was ascending, because people think saying 'He's not all that' during a slump makes them seem perceptive about tennis, because kicking a player when he's down is MTF GM's favorite sport (people here are better at it than at playing tennis) and because he isn't a flawless male supermodel like the rest of the ATP and the gorgeous male hotties who post to MTF GM.

cobalt60
10-30-2010, 03:43 PM
Because the same posters make the same douchebag remarks with each loss in his pathetic downward spiral, because he beat a lot of people's faves when he was ascending, because people think saying 'He's not all that' during a slump makes them seem perceptive about tennis, because kicking a player when he's down is MTF GM's favorite sport (people here are better at it than at playing tennis) and because he isn't a flawless male supermodel like the rest of the ATP and the gorgeous male hotties who post to MTF GM.

You are awesome;)

Johnny Groove
10-30-2010, 03:48 PM
This Guy Haines speaks the truth.

Serenidad
10-30-2010, 03:59 PM
Because I have never seen a bigger clown in my life and that's with Federer and Nadal still active.

luie
10-30-2010, 04:05 PM
No variety in his game.

Johnny_Bravo
10-30-2010, 04:29 PM
I love Mugrin




























...more than brands that is :p

~Maya~
10-30-2010, 04:52 PM
Because there are too many clowns on MTF

Bad Religion
10-30-2010, 05:45 PM
Hardcore mug , ugly game , some annoying fans like oranges

There are good reasons

sanshisan
10-30-2010, 05:51 PM
Because the same posters make the same douchebag remarks with each loss in his pathetic downward spiral, because he beat a lot of people's faves when he was ascending, because people think saying 'He's not all that' during a slump makes them seem perceptive about tennis, because kicking a player when he's down is MTF GM's favorite sport (people here are better at it than at playing tennis) and because he isn't a flawless male supermodel like the rest of the ATP and the gorgeous male hotties who post to MTF GM.

Well done. Although I haven't seen anywhere NEAR the kind of hate for Cilic that has been showered on Novak Djokovic's head for years now. Wasn't Novak voted `Most hated player on MTF' a while back? Nobody really knows why - frustrated little MTF punks just constantly indulging in hate, thus publicizing what vicious little clowns they are. MTF mugs,who could never aspire to the level of a Djokovic or a Cilic.

MTF thrives on hate. Typical thread - Who do you hate most? - blah blah blah. Go home to mama little puffs. Sickening lack of sportsmanship or appreciation of tennis exhibited on this site!

Serenidad
10-30-2010, 05:59 PM
Mugrin quite possibly has the ugliest game in history to match the ugliest face in history and that's in Nadal and Federer's era. To outclown those two takes a lot of clownery.

tennizen
10-30-2010, 06:09 PM
There's no saying who will catch MTF's collective hate fantasy at what point of time. In some cases,reasons are clear like with top players who defeat other favorite top players. But in most cases it's random. It has to be.Otherwise Cilic doesn't fit any stereotype for hating. He definitely doesn't look like he dopes, never springs into limelight, goes about his business quietly and is not a pusher.

Li Ching Yuen
10-30-2010, 06:17 PM
To make up for something very little in their pants.

selyoink
10-30-2010, 06:40 PM
Because he has a mug game.

MalwareDie
10-30-2010, 06:43 PM
I don't like his game. I dislike him less than Verdasco, but that isn't saying much.

Iván
10-30-2010, 06:45 PM
he has no plan b

bleu_cheese
10-30-2010, 07:15 PM
I...don't know. I was impressed by his work ethic and on court attitude, which some would call "boring" I guess.

hicdick
10-30-2010, 09:12 PM
Because the same posters make the same douchebag remarks with each loss in his pathetic downward spiral, because he beat a lot of people's faves when he was ascending, because people think saying 'He's not all that' during a slump makes them seem perceptive about tennis, because kicking a player when he's down is MTF GM's favorite sport (people here are better at it than at playing tennis) and because he isn't a flawless male supermodel like the rest of the ATP and the gorgeous male hotties who post to MTF GM.

This. :worship:

16681
10-31-2010, 03:17 AM
I don't hate him. It's just that his tennis game hasn't been much lately :sad:

shiaben
10-31-2010, 03:25 AM
He has been pathetic as of late.

Showing no consistency at all, and losing a lot for no apparent reason.

Perhaps, a death in the family?? or just mentally not there.

His serve isn't a big deal, not everyone can serve the same way or with the same power. It's totally subjective.

He's not as aggressive as Soderling or Berdych, but he can still try to be more clean within the rallies to avoid over hitting the points.

HKz
10-31-2010, 03:31 AM
Because people hyped him up to be Goran's true successor and then similarly to plenty of other hyped players, he didn't win 99999 slams, so therefore he is a failure at life.

Honestly, sometimes I wish all of MTF were together at some kind of tennis club that has all the top players, and see if they would actually tell them "you're trash" in front of their face. Because they clearly do it here behind a computer screen. Maybe everyone can attempt to learn tennis and the true competitive nature of the sport and they would have more respect for all the ATP pros, whatever their rankings are.

MIMIC
10-31-2010, 03:34 AM
He's "hated"? Really?

octatennis
10-31-2010, 04:41 AM
success = +hate

Crowdmaker
10-31-2010, 08:30 AM
It is pretty simple.
His personality does not fit current tennis circus.
His "boring" game was killing lot of people favourites not so long ago.
Now that he is on a downhill ride; everyone is throwing frustration back at him.
Honestly I wish I would be mug like himself and achived so much in life;)

jrm
10-31-2010, 08:40 AM
Big deal - everyone has a thread like this in MTF; he's just happens to be shooting duck at the moment!

gulzhan
10-31-2010, 08:52 AM
I like Cilic a lot.

samanosuke
10-31-2010, 09:10 AM
I like Cilic a lot.

:haha:

gulzhan
10-31-2010, 09:15 AM
:haha:

Personalities are as important for me as game style :shrug:

fangirl
10-31-2010, 09:18 AM
He prefers the Croatian Football Team to the England Team.

Instant approval from me.

Mateya
10-31-2010, 09:23 AM
I don't hate him and probably noone really does.

I just dislike his ugly groundstrokes (forehand is just disgusting, I swear my is nicer) and the fact he loses so many tiebreaks for no reason is just a joke.
With his ability he should be winning 70% of them.

He'll bounce back, I'm sure. But next year (january, february) is gonna be brutal I'm afraid. :o

samanosuke
10-31-2010, 09:46 AM
Personalities are as important for me as game style :shrug:

You are serious ??? I thought that you are kidding

Beat
10-31-2010, 11:12 AM
Because this is MTF. Not really tennis fans just tards who like to just brainlessly say 'mug' to anyone in a slump.

this.

Deathless Mortal
10-31-2010, 11:24 AM
You know you are lame if you can, by all means of that word, hate a tennis player you don't know personally.

Action Jackson
10-31-2010, 11:25 AM
You are serious ??? I thought that you are kidding

Fangirls don't joke.

paseo
10-31-2010, 01:56 PM
Fangirls don't joke.

Who's that in your avatar?

MisterQ
10-31-2010, 02:46 PM
Some people just hate palindromes. It threatens their sense of letter order.

Seles had the same problem when she first came on the tour.

«Ivan»
10-31-2010, 02:58 PM
Because the same posters make the same douchebag remarks with each loss in his pathetic downward spiral, because he beat a lot of people's faves when he was ascending, because people think saying 'He's not all that' during a slump makes them seem perceptive about tennis, because kicking a player when he's down is MTF GM's favorite sport (people here are better at it than at playing tennis) and because he isn't a flawless male supermodel like the rest of the ATP and the gorgeous male hotties who post to MTF GM.

you are awesome:worship: (no 2.)

Mimi
11-01-2010, 06:05 AM
I like him:cool:

Certinfy
11-01-2010, 08:32 AM
Well I don't mind the guy, I find no reason at all to hate him and he seems like a cool dude off court, but yeah his gamestyle isn't exactly pleasant.

Serenidad
11-12-2010, 07:50 AM
:lol: Mugrin.

samanosuke
11-12-2010, 08:00 AM
You just had to watch tonight's match and you'll understand why

Everko
11-12-2010, 02:26 PM
Cilic is such a dreadful player and hard to watch

elena_k
11-12-2010, 03:02 PM
Just because you don't like the way someone plays Tennis doesn't mean you should hate them.

bjurra
11-12-2010, 03:20 PM
Cilic might be boring but hardly hateworthy.

Fedal2010
11-12-2010, 05:48 PM
Lots of people talking about his ugly game style and weak serve.
But there are lots of similarities with Cilic´s game and JMDP´s one.
Weak serve, with Cilic a having a better movement and JMDP hitting the FH more stealer than anybody else.
Cilic = hated because killing so many players who have tards on this boards
JMDP = same game = praised like god

And you guys seriously thing JMDP is out for such a long time only because of an injury
Sorry but he has some serious mental issues too.

kyleskywalker007
11-12-2010, 08:31 PM
Lots of people talking about his ugly game style and weak serve.
But there are lots of similarities with Cilic´s game and JMDP´s one.
Weak serve, with Cilic a having a better movement and JMDP hitting the FH more stealer than anybody else.
Cilic = hated because killing so many players who have tards on this boards
JMDP = same game = praised like god

And you guys seriously thing JMDP is out for such a long time only because of an injury
Sorry but he has some serious mental issues too.

Actually JMDP is praised like a God only because he managed to beat Nadal and Fed at the same slam and win the whole thing in the process. He was a mental giant in 2009.

But to be fair in 2008, when he was merely a MM king, he was dismissed as yet another ballbasher. So let's not pretend he's been praised without a good reason. Cilic, on the other hand, folds like a cheap tent at every tiebreak he plays, and his form since AO has been dreadful too.

MIMIC
11-12-2010, 09:01 PM
How could anybody HATE Cilic?

tektonac
11-12-2010, 09:30 PM
How could anybody HATE Cilic?

i was asking the same question myself? yes he should've managed to settle in the top 10 already. he has a great potential, he is a big hitter but missing some finesse and mental toughness, but can improve those if he is dedicated. ridiculous thread title!

Filo V.
11-13-2010, 03:49 AM
Anyone who hates someone they don't know beyond watching them on a television for 2 hours has serious problems.

GivenToFly
11-13-2010, 08:42 AM
Answer to that question is very simple and there is a two groups of people that HATE Cilic.
1st group of haters: those who lost money betting on favorites that Cilic beat when he was young, up and coming, promising, widely unknown player.
2nd group of haters: those who lost money betting on Cilic from March 2010 until today.
If you can hate somone just because he has a boring playing style than you have a big problem and one simple solution: stop watching Cilic.

cobalt60
12-04-2010, 01:08 PM
Some people just hate palindromes. It threatens their sense of letter order.

Seles had the same problem when she first came on the tour.

:spit: LMFAO.

RedHotRafa
12-04-2010, 03:27 PM
Because he is a mug, Because he is a Croatian, Because serving is his only weapon, Because he is not kind :haha:

Topspindoctor
12-04-2010, 03:35 PM
Because he is a mug, Because he is a Croatian, Because serving is his only weapon, Because he is not kind :haha:

Actually Mugin's serve is pretty awful for someone his height. He regularly serves a ton of double faults and 50% or less first serves in. His tie break record is also horrendous and huge servers are supposed to have an advantage there.

Why do people hate (dislike?) him? Poor attitude, looks lethargic on court, ugly groundstrokes, braindead shot selection, inconsistent and over-hyped, especially after his AO run.

Roger the Dodger
01-03-2011, 07:23 PM
Because the same posters make the same douchebag remarks with each loss in his pathetic downward spiral, because he beat a lot of people's faves when he was ascending, because people think saying 'He's not all that' during a slump makes them seem perceptive about tennis, because kicking a player when he's down is MTF GM's favorite sport (people here are better at it than at playing tennis) and because he isn't a flawless male supermodel like the rest of the ATP and the gorgeous male hotties who post to MTF GM.

Because people hyped him up to be Goran's true successor and then similarly to plenty of other hyped players, he didn't win 99999 slams, so therefore he is a failure at life.

Honestly, sometimes I wish all of MTF were together at some kind of tennis club that has all the top players, and see if they would actually tell them "you're trash" in front of their face. Because they clearly do it here behind a computer screen. Maybe everyone can attempt to learn tennis and the true competitive nature of the sport and they would have more respect for all the ATP pros, whatever their rankings are.

Sensible posts. Sensible posters. They unbalance the trolls.

I...don't know. I was impressed by his work ethic and on court attitude, which some would call "boring" I guess.

That silk maroon Fila mess of an outfit doesn't help. Reminds me of something I would pick out of the trash in the Lower East Side in '79 when I had no money.

Agreed. The problems Cilic will face through his career will be similar to Davydenko's. No matter how hard he'll work, his average looks, his stick figure and - his monobrow (that's actually funny, Leng jai) - will conspire hatred towards his game despite his good nature and great discipline, and yes you guessed it; nike won't endorse him.

Actually Mugin's serve is pretty awful for someone his height. He regularly serves a ton of double faults and 50% or less first serves in. His tie break record is also horrendous and huge servers are supposed to have an advantage there

For someone of his height, yes but not poor in itself. I see him produce excellent angles with it. His serve and his groundstrokes are his strengths.

Why do people hate (dislike?) him? Poor attitude, looks lethargic on court, ugly groundstrokes, braindead shot selection, inconsistent and over-hyped, especially after his AO run.

Cilic doesn't always look lethargic at all. He gets mentally lost if things don't work as per plan and he has no plan B but that's not being lethargic or lapsing in effort. He gets physically tired or goes off to sleep in crucial games.

2010 -2011 were just a blooper in the radar. May the ball-basher flourish here on.

but-it's-ok
01-03-2011, 09:59 PM
I feel sorry for Marin right now,he's in a slump and sometimes its such a battle to get out of them. He gets tight in key situations,especially tie-breaks,thats purely psychological,he is currently showing a lack of self belief. To me he has looked flat mentally and to a lesser extent,physically for some time now. His game seems wooden and worn out as a consequence. He doesn't show emotions much,maybe he needs to be a little more fired up.

He does seem a sensitive though nice guy,and will be worried about whats happening,trying to clear his mind.

No-one goes into a slump on purpose,whats going on right now with him really is no justification for hating him,there are heroes and zeroes every day in sport.

I hope he will soon have renewed spirit and confidence on court.

KarlyM
01-03-2011, 10:40 PM
I don't hate Cilic. :shrug: Yeah, it's been frustrating to watch him since his last decent result in Washington last summer, but every player has a slump at some point in their career. Hopefully, he makes the necessary changes to work through it - he's still young after all. From what I've seen, he seems like a real nice guy.

Henry Chinaski
01-03-2011, 10:54 PM
Cilic might be boring but hardly hateworthy.

this

He lacks a bit of charisma and his come aaaans can be quite irritating but there's nothing about him worth hating

and his backhand is hardly an ugly stroke unless you're some clown who thinks Robredo has a nice backhand just because it's one-handed.

fast_clay
01-03-2011, 11:18 PM
i just hate cilic because its pretty trendy at the moment... i'm sure when a syringe falls out of odesniks racquet bag at a change of ends, or dave is seen exiting burger king after a 2nd rd AO loss the mood will shift...

Certinfy
02-19-2011, 02:20 PM
He's back and the hate needs to stop :wavey:

Yeah his gamestyle isn't exactly attractive, but he's a great guy off the court and a great player :)

Fedal2010
02-19-2011, 02:21 PM
He's back and the hate needs to stop :wavey:

Yeah his gamestyle isn't exactly attractive, but he's a great guy off the court and a great player :)

Amen! Well said mate. :worship:

gulzhan
02-19-2011, 03:02 PM
I like Cilic a lot. Even after he beat my fave Youzhny.

Henry Chinaski
02-19-2011, 03:19 PM
everything about him is dull

madmax
02-19-2011, 03:21 PM
because he's a definition of dull most probably

pica_pica
02-19-2011, 04:00 PM
I like Marin, though I don't often watch him. His serious and worried looks and the way he uses the front of his shirt to wipe his face somehow induce goosebumps :tape: :hug:

ossie
02-19-2011, 04:39 PM
because he is a mug

Guy Haines
02-19-2011, 08:50 PM
I don't hate Marin Cilic. I've been frustrated with his performance and possibly priorities this past year, but I still have faith in his abilities and potential.

rocketassist
02-19-2011, 09:04 PM
because he is a mug

Coming from a fan of Del Potro whose playing style he is almost identical to.... priceless :lol:

Fedal2010
02-19-2011, 09:15 PM
Coming from a fan of Del Potro whose playing style he is almost identical to.... priceless :lol:

Yeah had to laugh at this one too. :haha:

But he probably hates Cilic´s mental midgetness. LOl

cocrcici
02-19-2011, 09:47 PM
The Nature of the Ego:cool:

cobalt60
02-19-2011, 09:49 PM
Is he? I wouldn't take MTF's views as real. Cilic is a hard worker and seems to be a nice guy off court :shrug:

Fedal2010
02-19-2011, 10:09 PM
Is he? I wouldn't take MTF's views as real. Cilic is a hard worker and seems to be a nice guy off court :shrug:

Wait a few years and raonic will be hated too..As for now he´s praised as god but wait for their reactions when he starts to choke badly.

abraxas21
02-19-2011, 10:38 PM
because he's the very definition of a mug

Mungo
02-20-2011, 12:52 AM
Robotic player, I bet even his post match interviews are taped

tennishero
02-20-2011, 02:08 AM
he gives a lot of glares on court and towards the camera, as if he is rambo.
his movement is robotic.
his fistpump is annoying and jumps like a balerina after winning the match.

Topspindoctor
02-20-2011, 02:12 AM
I used to hate him, but now I don't care about him anymore.

ossie
02-20-2011, 08:54 AM
Coming from a fan of Del Potro whose playing style he is almost identical to.... priceless :lol:
del potro and mugic have the same style now? :haha:

the idiocy on this forum never ceases to amaze me

Cereal Killer
09-08-2014, 08:33 PM
Seemed like a good time to bump this. :shrug:

JamieBlake
09-08-2014, 08:37 PM
I've always felt completely indifferent towards him and still do.

MuzzahLovah
09-08-2014, 08:38 PM
He's lot sexier now, and this isn't just because he ground olderer into dust, though that may be part of it.

miura88
09-08-2014, 08:38 PM
Because he straight-setted Fed.

MasterPredictor
09-08-2014, 08:42 PM
Because he ended Federer's last chance to win a Slam

TigerTim
09-08-2014, 08:44 PM
what happened to the OP :confused:

MuzzahLovah
09-08-2014, 08:48 PM
what happened to the OP :confused:

Fedtards got him most likely, they are quite savage.

DjokerForCYGS
09-08-2014, 08:48 PM
- Ugly strokes
- Pathetic serve for his height
- Monobrow

- He improved on the quality of his FH & BH
- He tremendously improved his serve under Goran, making very hard to be guessed on HC
- Come on, that is totally subjective and has nothing to do with tennis skills

JamieBlake
09-08-2014, 08:59 PM
Yeah I wonder what happend to Certinfy

Matt01
09-08-2014, 09:00 PM
what happened to the OP :confused:


Yeah, anybody knows? Hope he's fine.

Cereal Killer
09-08-2014, 09:15 PM
Yeah, anybody knows? Hope he's fine.

He seems alright on Twitter.

Chris Kuerten
09-08-2014, 09:33 PM
Certinfy nerdraged after Berdych's AO match against Wawrinka and retired from tennis.

Israel
09-08-2014, 09:45 PM
I think he's just a bit boring :shrug:
Nice guy though.

User Name
09-08-2014, 10:34 PM
Because big servers are boring to watch and thats what Cilic has transformed to.

SERVivor
09-08-2014, 10:48 PM
Because big servers are boring to watch and thats what Cilic has transformed to.

come on. He's got a lot more than just a big serve. One thing he has added the last few years is a reliable one handed slice bh. I don't remember him having that shot a few years ago.

User Name
09-08-2014, 10:57 PM
come on. He's got a lot more than just a big serve. One thing he has added the last few years is a reliable one handed slice bh. I don't remember him having that shot a few years ago.


He wins a lot of points off of big serves which is incredibly boring to watch. I will admit that he has improved his ground game though and he was hitting his ground strokes better than federer and nishikori.

stan1
09-08-2014, 10:59 PM
Because he's a semi servebot who's in the past used "factors" to enhance his level of play. Shortly, because he's a cheater who should be banned from the ATP:mad::mad::mad:

Speed of Light
09-10-2014, 02:57 AM
Because he's a semi servebot who's in the past used "factors" to enhance his level of play. Shortly, because he's a cheater who should be banned from the ATP:mad::mad::mad:

Quoted for relevance.

GasquetGulbis
09-10-2014, 04:37 AM
Because he's a semi servebot who's in the past used "factors" to enhance his level of play. Shortly, because he's a cheater who should be banned from the ATP:mad::mad::mad:

Wrong. He didn't start winning matches because his lung volume increased.

AndyNonomous
09-10-2014, 04:57 AM
Wrong. He didn't start winning matches because his lung volume increased.


Growth Factors don't affect respiratory function. They may (although independent tests can't verify this), help speed soft tissue joint recovery. If used illegally, they can improve strength (stronger groundstrokes, and serve).

You are probably thinking of autologous blood doping (illegal stamina enhancement). PRP, and autologous blood doping, both require the extraction of blood from the same recipient and donor.

PRP only uses a small amount of blood that is spun in a centrifuge to extract the plasma, then the plasma is re-injected into a joint's soft tissue (no effect on stamina, or strength).

Autologous blood doping extracts a much larger amount of blood that is re-inserted into the donor's (same person it was extracted from) veins just before competition, that increases the red-cell count, and stamina. Lance Armstrong used this technique, after a test for EPO was introduced.

Cilic tested positive for a stimulant (does nothing for stamina, or strength).


Whatever Cilic did, he played MUCH better than he ever has before. At 26 (almost), that is unusual.

Forehander
09-10-2014, 05:08 AM
- He improved on the quality of his FH & BH
- He tremendously improved his serve under Goran, making very hard to be guessed on HC
- Come on, that is totally subjective and has nothing to do with tennis skills

The topic is about why Marin Cilic is so hated, not just the tennis. If Leng jai doesn't like his monobrow then it means there are others out there who doesn't like it too and hence contributes to the reason why he's hated. In fact I know many people who dislike Marin Cilic purely because of his looks.

mobiwon
09-10-2014, 05:41 AM
Because he's a semi servebot who's in the past used "factors" to enhance his level of play. Shortly, because he's a cheater who should be banned from the ATP:mad::mad::mad:

AND he threw his mother under the bus!

Johnny Groove
09-10-2014, 05:42 AM
Cilic is love Cilic is life

Greystoke
09-10-2014, 11:24 AM
Whatever Cilic did, he played MUCH better than he ever has before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJfhz_oqIcg

Also, his match vs. Gonzalez at the 2008 AOpen.

Guybrush
09-10-2014, 12:07 PM
Shortly, because he's a cheater who should be banned from the ATP:mad::mad::mad:

He cheated his girlfriend?!

Gliese581
09-10-2014, 12:15 PM
people can stop using the whole banning thing as an excuse..in fact its not even an excuse. I'd argue the facts about that by the way but its seemingly impossible to get people on here to actually read something and listen to facts . Once people have made up their minds its pointless to try and sway them another way on here so i wont bother

the thing is though that he was hated long before the whole ban thing came up and for no good reason either

Timot
09-10-2014, 12:18 PM
Because MTF is full of frustrated mugs.

How can one not like a guy with not only great skills, but also so much class that he gives Tsonga a chance to repeat a MP, which Jo has lost distracted by someone in the crowd:

DAIIOAelWvQ

Guybrush
09-10-2014, 12:24 PM
Because MTF is full of frustrated mugs.

How can one not like a guy with not only great skills, but also so much class that he gives Tsonga a chance to repeat a MP, which Jo has lost distracted by someone in the crowd:

DAIIOAelWvQ

Marin is a very nice and humble person. Nothing strange he did that.

Acer
09-10-2014, 12:25 PM
http://torgsynrx.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/u/current_product1_2.jpg

Speed of Light
09-10-2014, 12:36 PM
Because it's not the hate that he deserved, but the one that he needed right now (to win USO).

Gliese581
09-10-2014, 12:40 PM
http://torgsynrx.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/u/current_product1_2.jpg

the funny thing is those actually didnt do much to help him. its not like their some stroid that drastically increases performance. In fact they really didnt help him at all.

f1yer
09-10-2014, 12:40 PM
Because he's a semi servebot who's in the past used "factors" to enhance his level of play. Shortly, because he's a cheater who should be banned from the ATP:mad::mad::mad:

Callin someone a CHEATER without proof should be a perma bannable offence on MTF

thrust
09-10-2014, 12:41 PM
Because MTF is full of frustrated mugs.

How can one not like a guy with not only great skills, but also so much class that he gives Tsonga a chance to repeat a MP, which Jo has lost distracted by someone in the crowd:

DAIIOAelWvQ

I agree! I was stunned by Marin's tennis this past weekend, especially against Federer. I never saw anyone, not even Rafa, make Roger look so defenseless and so lost on a tennis court. Whether he can keep up this quality of play is questionable, time will tell. I think his size and easy power may turn some fans off, especially when he plays a player of Kei's size. The authorities realized that Cilic was unfairly punished for the substance that he did not know what was in the glucose pills he took. So to call Cilic a doping cheater is unfair and stupid. Congrats to Marin and Goran too!

Timot
09-10-2014, 12:45 PM
He wins a lot of points off of big serves which is incredibly boring to watch. I will admit that he has improved his ground game though and he was hitting his ground strokes better than federer and nishikori.

Federer (and vast majority of offensive players) also does that, which doesn't make him boring to watch. Out of big guys, Cilic is the most versatile guy on Tour: slice, BH, angles, volley, ROS, it's all there.

Speed of Light
09-10-2014, 12:54 PM
Callin someone a CHEATER without proof should be a perma bannable offence on MTF



I'm fine with it. I truly believed he didn't do anything wrong in the sense that he did it on purpose. Was he stupid maybe? Maybe. You know, yeah. But I feel like I know him well enough, and I don't think he would call someone a cheater again. I don't quite remember what the circumstances were, but I feel more bad for him than anything else. So for me, when I see him post, it doesn't cross my mind in any way. And, no, I think he was becoming the poster he is already way before he called Cilic a cheater, so from that standpoint no problem for me.

AndyNonomous
09-10-2014, 04:32 PM
http://torgsynrx.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/u/current_product1_2.jpg

I wish people would quit repeating Cilic's story that he accidently took a tainted supplement, as though it is a proven fact. This is Cilic's story, the CAS "bought" his story because they can't prove he is lying (they don't need to prove he is lying, since he tested positive).


If you remember, Rafael Palmiero angrily denied he doped. He got caught doping later. Floyd Landis angrily denied he doped, then he confessed that he did in fact dope. Marion Jones angrily denied she doped, then she confessed. Lance Armstrong angrily sued a British publication that had the nerve to call anti-cancer hero Lance a doper, then Lance confessed.

No athlete that gets caught, admits that they were cheating. There is always an “excuse” (tainted meat{Contador}, tainted supplements {Rusedski}, glucose tablets that his mother gave him {Cilic}, I drank from Slim’s glass{Agassi}, I kissed a girl who had taken cocaine {Gasquet}, I am suddenly scared of needles, even though I have had many blood tests before {Troiki}.

I suppose that some athletes that were caught were not intentionally taking a performance enhancing drug, but most of them were doping.

Anybody who believes these stories, is in full blown denial.

Greystoke
09-10-2014, 05:05 PM
Here's the full decision:

http://www.itftennis.com/media/175425/175425.pdf

Deathless Mortal
09-10-2014, 05:27 PM
Here's the full decision:

http://www.itftennis.com/media/175425/175425.pdf

Thank you.

Most important part:

(1) Nikethamide is prohibited only in competition because its effects are transient.
(2) The athlete inadvertently ingested nikethamide out of competition, when it was perfectly legal for him to do so. His inadvertent use was therefore not a violation of any rule.
(3) There was no nikethamide in the athlete's system by the time he played his match on 1 May 2013. All that remained in his system were traces of the metabolite N-ethylnicotinamide, which is not a prohibited substance.

Speed of Light
09-10-2014, 05:32 PM
Thank you.

Most important part:

(1) Nikethamide is prohibited only in competition because its effects are transient.
(2) The athlete inadvertently ingested nikethamide out of competition, when it was perfectly legal for him to do so. His inadvertent use was therefore not a violation of any rule.
(3) There was no nikethamide in the athlete's system by the time he played his match on 1 May 2013. All that remained in his system were traces of the metabolite N-ethylnicotinamide, which is not a prohibited substance.




I'm fine with it. I truly believed he didn't do anything wrong in the sense that he did it on purpose. Was he stupid maybe? Maybe.

monfed
09-10-2014, 05:34 PM
Cause he used to choke left n right even with double breaks against the top guys. Still can't forget that choke against Murphy at USO. Holy hell that was awful.

Mateya
09-10-2014, 06:39 PM
I don't know...
I can say I didn't like his playing style because of his amazingly ugly forehand and robotic backhand, but his forehand looks a little bit smoother now, imo.

Otherwise, Marin is such a very nice boy. :)

doubletrollt
09-10-2014, 07:48 PM
Thank you.

Most important part:

(1) Nikethamide is prohibited only in competition because its effects are transient.
(2) The athlete inadvertently ingested nikethamide out of competition, when it was perfectly legal for him to do so. His inadvertent use was therefore not a violation of any rule.
(3) There was no nikethamide in the athlete's system by the time he played his match on 1 May 2013. All that remained in his system were traces of the metabolite N-ethylnicotinamide, which is not a prohibited substance.

Paragraph 54.
Page marked 9/25 in that pdf.

http://www.itftennis.com/media/175425/175425.pdf

Coolio_Jack
09-10-2014, 08:29 PM
Thank you.

Most important part:

(1) Nikethamide is prohibited only in competition because its effects are transient.
(2) The athlete inadvertently ingested nikethamide out of competition, when it was perfectly legal for him to do so. His inadvertent use was therefore not a violation of any rule.
(3) There was no nikethamide in the athlete's system by the time he played his match on 1 May 2013. All that remained in his system were traces of the metabolite N-ethylnicotinamide, which is not a prohibited substance.

Case closed, but somehow i doubt it will bring some people back to their senses.

Matt01
09-10-2014, 09:32 PM
AND he threw his mother under the bus!


Really? This isn't nice :eek:




Whatever Cilic did, he played MUCH better than he ever has before. At 26 (almost), that is unusual.


Not that unusual these days...players are peaking later now than they did some years ago. Stan this year won his 1st Slam at 28.

AndyNonomous
09-10-2014, 09:45 PM
Not that unusual these days...players are peaking later now than they did some years ago. Stan this year won his 1st Slam at 28.


BINGO ! ;)

Fedalovic
09-10-2014, 11:44 PM
Thank you.

Most important part:

(1) Nikethamide is prohibited only in competition because its effects are transient.
(2) The athlete inadvertently ingested nikethamide out of competition, when it was perfectly legal for him to do so. His inadvertent use was therefore not a violation of any rule.
(3) There was no nikethamide in the athlete's system by the time he played his match on 1 May 2013. All that remained in his system were traces of the metabolite N-ethylnicotinamide, which is not a prohibited substance.
That was the summary of the Athlete's submission (i.e. Cilic's defense).

AndyNonomous
09-11-2014, 12:13 AM
That was the summary of the Athlete's submission (i.e. Cilic's defense).

Effectively, yes. Even if the ITF, or CAS acceded to these "facts", there is no possible way they could know for sure, if Cilic took the substance "inadvertently".

Coolio_Jack
09-11-2014, 01:18 AM
Effectively, yes. Even if the ITF, or CAS acceded to these "facts", there is no possible way they could know for sure, if Cilic took the substance "inadvertently".

You keep making a fool of yourself, it doesnt matter how he took it or was it on purpose or not because what was found in his blood wasnt illegal at all at the time he played his match, and nikethamide is perfectly legal outside of competition.

(3) There was no nikethamide in the athlete's system by the time he played his match on 1 May 2013. All that remained in his system were traces of the metabolite N-ethylnicotinamide, which is not a prohibited substance.

Timot
09-11-2014, 01:38 AM
Whatever Cilic did, he played MUCH better than he ever has before. At 26 (almost), that is unusual.

It's absolutely typical that someone who's not even 26 yet plays better, than when he was younger, especially after switching his coaches (funny how you completely ignored that factor). Many players had their peak much later than him: Wawrinka, Ferrer, Lendl, Connors, Laver, Rosewall, Ashe, just to name a few.

And he did play as well in the past matches. Just to name the few: he destroyed Nadal in Beijing semi losing just 4 games, routined Murray at USO '09, and choked horribly after 7-5, 5-1 lead against eventual champion at USO '12, etc.

It's just that with his mental fragility he either choked the match (like the one at USO '12) or couldn't keep up the form in the next one. That's why his improved mental strength is so important for him. The game was always there: slice, using angles, ballbashing, ROS, volley, dropshot. He just needed head and a better serve, to fulfill his potential.

monfed
09-11-2014, 01:42 AM
I don't get how a serial choker can turn into a slam winning beast overnight without a lucky break? I mean Murphy got his break at the Olympics with an exhausted Fed in the final. IDK how a coach can teach you mental strength. If you're not mentally strong naturally like Nadal/Djokovic then you need a break or things to fall in place but with Cilic he didn't need one which is quite bizarre.

AndyNonomous
09-11-2014, 02:28 AM
You keep making a fool of yourself, it doesnt matter how he took it or was it on purpose or not because what was found in his blood wasnt illegal at all at the time he played his match, and nikethamide is perfectly legal outside of competition.

If he did nothing wrong, why was he sanctioned ?

Coolio_Jack
09-11-2014, 02:40 AM
If he did nothing wrong, why was he sanctioned ?

Bingo, im glad you were finally able to comprehend what happened, better late then never i guess.

ITF screwed up, simple as that,they were too desperate trying to find a victim (not too big, and yet not too irrelevant) that would show they are actually doing something. CAS tried to repair the damage but 4 months were already lost.

nadalfan2013
09-11-2014, 02:52 AM
He's hated on MTF because he destroyed Federer. It's as simple as that.

AndyNonomous
09-11-2014, 03:30 AM
Bingo, im glad you were finally able to comprehend what happened, better late then never i guess.

ITF screwed up, simple as that,they were too desperate trying to find a victim (not too big, and yet not too irrelevant) that would show they are actually doing something. CAS tried to repair the damage but 4 months were already lost.


Cilic DID test positive for a banned substance, in-competition.

The Croatian was handed the suspension by the International Tennis Federation's Anti-Doping Tribunal last month after testing positive for a banned stimulant at the BMW Open in Munich in May.


A ban WAS upheld by the CAS (although it was REDUCED, not eliminated). The ITF wanted a longer ban, because they didn't believe Cilic's story.

"The panel also determined that the sanction imposed was too severe in view of the degree of fault and concluded that it should be reduced to four months

And it was CILIC who came up with the Glucose tablet explanation, NOT the CAS.

The 25-year-old's explanation for the presence of the stimulant nikethamide, which is banned in competition, in his system was that he had inadvertently taken it in Coramine glucose tablets that had been purchased for him from a pharmacy.

It is all here. (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/tennis/marin-cilic-free-to-resume-his-tennis-career-after-court-of-arbitration-for-sport-reduce-ban-from-nine-to-four-months-8904256.html)

The suggestion that the ITF were "trying to find a victim" is outrageous considering how hard the ITF tries to make sure nobody gets caught, and hates the embarrassment when somebody does get caught. Bitti has said so himself.

Mimi
09-11-2014, 06:24 AM
He's hated on MTF because he destroyed Federer. It's as simple as that.

:lol: but to be fair, some of the Fed fans are very classy and congratulated him, just some of them hate him :lol:

Greystoke
09-11-2014, 07:54 AM
AndyNomonous, it is hard to talk to someone who refuses to recognize facts.
They didn't find banned substances in his urine, they found a metabolite of a substance that is banned in-competition only.
Is that hard to understand?

masterclass
09-11-2014, 08:43 AM
CAS decision was appropriate and the pertinent facts are these.

1. CAS upheld the anti-doping violation.

2. CAS reduced his suspension to 4 months.

a. He admittedly took the glucose supplement containing a banned substance, though he claimed he did not know it, whether it was by accident or neglect to properly research the contents on the label.

b. The substance is banned in-competition only. Standards are somewhat different than a substance that is always banned. The fact that only the metabolite was found is not mitigating in terms of absolving him of any wrong doing. It means that the substance was ingested far enough from competition to be able to detect the substance, but too close to the competition, before its metabolite could leave the system. This is still a violation.

Please read #75 b. of the CAS decision (http://www.itftennis.com/media/175425/175425.pdf) most carefully. It defines/explains the In-Competition standards and application of suspension.

Basically it says that in the case where the substance that is banned only in-competition is taken out-of-competition, that the taking of the substance itself doesn't constitute a doping or illicit behavior, but that the presence of the substance (or its metabolites) while participating in a competition does constitute doping/illicit behavior because the athlete returned to competition too early to allow the substance or its metabolites to clear the athlete's system.

For this, the level of fault is different. Reading on, CAS determines the degree of objective fault to be light (0-8 months), and the degree of subjective fault applied to the objective fault to be medium, giving him his 4 months, 3 months which he had already served under the provisional suspension, so he was allowed to play about a month later. His points and prize money from the BMW Open were confirmed forfeited, but points and money after May 2 - June 25, were reinstated.

In conclusion, it was not very bright of Marin in this instance, who from all indications appears to be a genial and intelligent young man, to not check the label out of the different source of glucose from which he was used to using. Had he checked it out, all of this could have been avoided. As CAS said, this substance was not performance enhancing in the manner he took it, but because it (or its metabolites) was still present in his system it constituted a violation, but the suspension was I believe, deservedly reduced after taking all the relevant factors into account.

It's a bit unfortunate that it happened, and the worst is that it does leave a bit of a cloud over his head. Some are not as likely to trust that he may not be doing something worse, even if it is not the case, and that perception is unfortunately difficult to influence or change.

Respectfully,
masterclass

masterclass
09-11-2014, 02:14 PM
http://torgsynrx.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/u/current_product1_2.jpg

This image is misleading. He did not take this or even something like it in April when in France. It's not accurate to describe what he took as the simple glucose tablets this image implies.

He admittedly took CORAMINE glucose from Novartis. I don't have a photo of it, but they would be lozenges.

And if one simply searches Google: Coramine glucose

You will see a list...topped by Nikethamide - Wikipedia... - Widely known by its former trade name Coramine

then a list of various pharmaceutical sites like this one:

http://medicament.comprendrechoisir.com/medicament/voir/1516/coramine-glucose

And if you look at that, and go to precautions, there are several precautions for sports doping.

The outside of the packet itself said it was a medicament (medication). The packet's leaflet contained a warning about sports doping.

It would be hard to believe that the pharmacist would have knowingly given Marin's mother the Coramine glucose if the pharmacist had properly understood it was for a pro tennis player and that he would be competing in a relatively short amount of time after taking it (within 5 days of competition), but who knows what happened there.

Unfortunately, Marin and his coach seemingly failed to check it out, and even though he technically took it while not in competition (which is allowed), and even though it would not have enhanced his in-competition performance, he took it too close to the competition for the Nikethamide (or its metabolites) to clear from his system and was thus in violation of the anti-doping rules. Considering everything, his suspension was reduced by CAS to only 4 months (not the max 2 years).

The costly lesson hopefully learned (not only monetarily, but in public perception) is that a player has to make sure what they are taking is what they think it is, and that even if it is something allowed to be taken out of competition, one has to be sure there is enough time to allow it or traces of it to completely clear from the body's system prior to competing.

Respectfully,
masterclass

AndyNonomous
09-11-2014, 02:38 PM
Thank you for the clarifications, Masterclass. You highlight the difference between a fan (yourself), and a "fanboy".

masterclass
09-11-2014, 03:35 PM
You're quite welcome. I'm foremost a fan of tennis, more so, great tennis. Few players play what I consider to be great tennis very often, and of course, even great tennis players don't play great tennis all of the time. I also appreciate the effort of the players that try hard but are unable to play the great tennis that others do.

It was wonderful to see Marin playing great tennis at the US Open as he beat Simon and especially thereafter, he was unstoppable by everyone else who did not raise their game to play even nearly as well. One wonders in awe of how he was able to do so well and go beyond anything he has ever done at this class level in the span of a tournament, but maybe it was a combination of things that finally jelled for him.

I hope his performance was "clean" as I would hope all performances are clean, but I'm not naive enough to believe that they are, given the entire testing situation being performed by the sport's body itself instead of some more independent outside agency, and lure of great reward without much risk, especially with out-of-competition drug use and lack of testing in that regard, and that testing cannot keep up with the latest exotic drugs, which requires storage and periodic retesting. Right now, it seems to me and to many others that only the players who make stupid mistakes get caught by testing.

Wayne Odesnik got caught possessing and potentially trafficking HGH into Australia by Australian Immigration, not by testing, in early Jan 2010. At least 8 vials and 10 syringes I think it was, plus several small bottles of sterile water to dilute the HGH prior to injection. Who was all that grade A stuff meant for? Himself, a marginal player? Or potentially other wealthier higher ranking players? We will never know. All we can surmise is that some probably very disappointed intended player or players didn't get to use the HGH he was bringing into the country to use in hopes of a performance boost in the weeks before the 2010 Australian Open. All the rest of the info has been buried by the ITF and/or Odesnik. Another issue is that HGH is very expensive compared to simple steroids, so the average player isn't likely to be able to afford the HGH cycle. HGH and steroids are a potent combination and can boost an athlete to the next level during out of competition training and then be tapered off prior to competition.

Sorry if the last paragraph is a bit out of scope with the original topic. Probably belongs with the doping thread.

Respectfully,
masterclass

AndyNonomous
09-11-2014, 06:15 PM
You're quite welcome. I'm foremost a fan of tennis, more so, great tennis. Few players play what I consider to be great tennis very often, and of course, even great tennis players don't play great tennis all of the time. I also appreciate the effort of the players that try hard but are unable to play the great tennis that others do.

It was wonderful to see Marin playing great tennis at the US Open as he beat Simon and especially thereafter, he was unstoppable by everyone else who did not raise their game to play even nearly as well. One wonders in awe of how he was able to do so well and go beyond anything he has ever done at this class level in the span of a tournament, but maybe it was a combination of things that finally jelled for him.

I hope his performance was "clean" as I would hope all performances are clean, but I'm not naive enough to believe that they are, given the entire testing situation being performed by the sport's body itself instead of some more independent outside agency, and lure of great reward without much risk, especially with out-of-competition drug use and lack of testing in that regard, and that testing cannot keep up with the latest exotic drugs, which requires storage and periodic retesting. Right now, it seems to me and to many others that only the players who make stupid mistakes get caught by testing.

Wayne Odesnik got caught possessing and potentially trafficking HGH into Australia by Australian Immigration, not by testing, in early Jan 2010. At least 8 vials and 10 syringes I think it was, plus several small bottles of sterile water to dilute the HGH prior to injection. Who was all that grade A stuff meant for? Himself, a marginal player? Or potentially other wealthier higher ranking players? We will never know. All we can surmise is that some probably very disappointed intended player or players didn't get to use the HGH he was bringing into the country to use in hopes of a performance boost in the weeks before the 2010 Australian Open. All the rest of the info has been buried by the ITF and/or Odesnik. Another issue is that HGH is very expensive compared to simple steroids, so the average player isn't likely to be able to afford the HGH cycle. HGH and steroids are a potent combination and can boost an athlete to the next level during out of competition training and then be tapered off prior to competition.

Sorry if the last paragraph is a bit out of scope with the original topic. Probably belongs with the doping thread.

Respectfully,
masterclass



Well said.

By the way, I don't "hate" Cilic. It is obvious to me and many others that PED use has invaded the top levels of tennis. There are some very brazen examples of cheaters whose game are built on physicality, rather than true tennis specific skill. What bothers me, is the ITF pretending to weed out the dopers, when they are actually doing everything they can to NOT catch the biggest cheats.

There is pressure on other players to "even the playing field". If Cilic has "gone over to the dark side", I would understand (although not necessarily condone it).

Their careers are short. It would take tremendous restraint to stand by and do nothing, when they see low-skill dopers getting tremendous prestige and wealth, while the clean, higher-skill players are getting breadcrumbs.

As I said before, Cilic's performance was phenomenal throughout the tournament. I don't think anyone would have beaten him, with the way he was playing. It reminded me, very much of Safin's performance at the 2000 US Open.

pepita1964
09-12-2014, 03:39 AM
I agree! I was stunned by Marin's tennis this past weekend, especially against Federer. I never saw anyone, not even Rafa, make Roger look so defenseless and so lost on a tennis court. Whether he can keep up this quality of play is questionable, time will tell. I think his size and easy power may turn some fans off, especially when he plays a player of Kei's size. The authorities realized that Cilic was unfairly punished for the substance that he did not know what was in the glucose pills he took. So to call Cilic a doping cheater is unfair and stupid. Congrats to Marin and Goran too!



He played like that only in SF and maybe in F . Those too matches . Even Federer in his press after the match said Swiss journos that he was surprised by Cilic' power with his ROS,BH,FH everything not the serve because they played very tough match in Toronto. Fed was not broken for three hours in 3sets. He thought he played all time against wind and never with the wind in SF USO. Federer is not going to say it but he looked so flat, his legs did not move at all, BH ,FH were not there at all. Even in his QF vs Monfils i thought Fed needs to done this match in three or four sets so to have a chance in SF. Because i know Cilic is powerful guy and their match in Toronto was very very tough. But not he played 5 setter vs Monfils and was very mentally tough match. Monfils is so fast,unpredictable. Fed saved MP's no it was very emotional match for Fed. Monfils did the same vs Djokovic in Toronto as well and next day Djokovic lost to Tsonga /the big hitter/. You just can not reset the button mentally. If Fed was a bit fresher and had two days off could make this match looks a bit better , But it is what it is. Fed at 33 should be happy it was SF.