When a semi-final was like a final. [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

When a semi-final was like a final.

Tomic
09-13-2010, 07:31 AM
Nadal's and Djokovic's upcoming match reminds me of the time when they played in the Olympics. They played in the semi-finals with Nadal winning 6-4 1-6 6-4. The other semi-final was Gonzalez (12) and Blake (8). Virtually everyone expected the winning of the Nadal(1)-Djokovic(3) match to take the gold and the loser to take the bronze and that's exactly what happened (in straight sets).

This leads me to claim that the real final was the Nadal-Djokovic semi-final, as the two best players in the event (in most people's opinion) were in this match. Do you agree with this? What other occasions do you think there were by far the best two players in one semi-final (or even quarter-final or earlier)? I can think of two other examples, the 2005 Australian Open and 2005 Roland Garros.

In the 2005 Australian Open one semi-final was Safin-Federer and the other was Roddick-Hewitt. I believe that Safin would've won against Roddick and Federer (had he made the final) would've beaten both Hewitt and Roddick. The 2005 Roland Garros semi-finals were Federer-Nadal and Puerta-Davydenko. Again I think that Nadal would've beaten Davydenko as well and Federer would've beaten both other semi-finalists.

sanshisan
09-13-2010, 11:54 AM
You are so right. This semi final being in fact a final and played like one happens on a regular basis.

I think it has to do with the DRAW being fixed in the big events. I know everything is supposed to be fair and square but I really doubt that. :rolleyes:

FormerRafaFan
09-13-2010, 12:15 PM
You are so right. This semi final being in fact a final and played like
one happens on a regular basis.

I think it has to do with the DRAW being fixed in the big events. I know everything is supposed to be fair and square but I really doubt that. :rolleyes:

It's true though.. The semi finals/quarter finals are usually more fun to watch than the finals. Well, at least that's how it's been for the last few years. I really hope today is the exception :)

BTW, you are allowed to call the tournaments draws fixed or whatever. Truth be told, they have rules they have to follow. If anyone is to blame here it's obviously the ATP who needs to change the rules, don't you agree?

superganon
09-13-2010, 12:39 PM
Nadal's and Djokovic's upcoming match reminds me of the time when they played in the Olympics. They played in the semi-finals with Nadal winning 6-4 1-6 6-4. The other semi-final was Gonzalez (12) and Blake (8). Virtually everyone expected the winning of the Nadal(1)-Djokovic(3) match to take the gold and the loser to take the bronze and that's exactly what happened (in straight sets).

This leads me to claim that the real final was the Nadal-Djokovic semi-final, as the two best players in the event (in most people's opinion) were in this match. Do you agree with this? What other occasions do you think there were by far the best two players in one semi-final (or even quarter-final or earlier)? I can think of two other examples, the 2005 Australian Open and 2005 Roland Garros.

In the 2005 Australian Open one semi-final was Safin-Federer and the other was Roddick-Hewitt. I believe that Safin would've won against Roddick and Federer (had he made the final) would've beaten both Hewitt and Roddick. The 2005 Roland Garros semi-finals were Federer-Nadal and Puerta-Davydenko. Again I think that Nadal would've beaten Davydenko as well and Federer would've beaten both other semi-finalists.

the 2009 semi final of roland garros. soderling vs gonzalez....man that was an epic...last set-sod down 4-1 and wins 6-4!

Jaz
09-13-2010, 12:45 PM
This is only going to get worse, the top is very competitive.

Roger, Djoker, Nadal, Murray, Soderling can all beat one another. The problem is there is always going to be somebody in the semi-final or even Quarter-final who can cause problem. We might see ALOT more Nadal-Federer semi-finals now. with the #1 and #3

Persimmon
09-13-2010, 12:46 PM
Madrid 2009 SF Rafa-Nole was the real final.

latso
09-13-2010, 12:51 PM
AO 2009

Verdasco-Nadal

Jaz
09-13-2010, 12:56 PM
AO 2009

Verdasco-Nadal

Bullshit. The AO final was very tight and aside from the Federer serving tank either play could have won.

Everko
09-13-2010, 02:10 PM
Nadal not one of the best two? :o

finishingmove
09-13-2010, 02:26 PM
AO 2009

Verdasco-Nadal

agreed.

federer was violated in the final

Beforehand
09-13-2010, 02:51 PM
I don't think a lot of people are understanding this thread. Whoops.

Anyway, OP, is it important that the fact that it was "the defacto final" was known at the time? Because, in that case, I'm not sure that Federer/Safin really was that match, only because I don't know if everyone would have assigned to Safin, upon beating Federer, the definite notion that he would beat Hewitt or Roddick, at least at that time. Especially when Hewitt was so steadily doing excellently against pretty much everyone but Federer.

finishingmove
09-13-2010, 03:04 PM
well verdasco wouldn't have beaten federer, but he played a better match against nadal imo.

BAMJ6
09-13-2010, 04:06 PM
Andre Agassi's GS semi"finals"

1988 FO
1990 USO should've been with teen Pete
1992 FO Courier
1994 USO Todd Martin
1996 AO should've been with old Becker and as defending champ
1999 FO
1999 USO AO champ Kafelnikov
2000 AO the best semi"final" of his career
2001 AO Rafter
2001 Wimbledon without Pete
2002 USO should've been with old Pete

Shirogane
09-13-2010, 04:30 PM
2002 USO should've been with old Pete
Oh yes. Instead, he was having a stupid Saturday 3-hour date with then number one Hewitt.

And yes to answer the OP, as soon as he missed the easy overhead, he started crying as if he'd lost the gold medal.

Sophocles
09-13-2010, 04:53 PM
USO 2010. Djokovic-Federer was the real final.

peribsen
09-13-2010, 05:13 PM
You mean RG 2005?

USO 2010. Djokovic-Federer was the real final.

Why? Do they play 6-match slams now?
Seems like you're terrified by the possibility that Rafa wins.
On my part, I think the odds are 2:1 favouring Nole.

Persimmon
09-13-2010, 05:15 PM
USO 2010. Djokovic-Federer was the real final.

Obviously. Nole wins the final today without a doubt.:wavey: Bye Rafa.:wavey:

n8
09-13-2010, 10:47 PM
I don't think a lot of people are understanding this thread. Whoops.

Anyway, OP, is it important that the fact that it was "the defacto final" was known at the time? Because, in that case, I'm not sure that Federer/Safin really was that match, only because I don't know if everyone would have assigned to Safin, upon beating Federer, the definite notion that he would beat Hewitt or Roddick, at least at that time. Especially when Hewitt was so steadily doing excellently against pretty much everyone but Federer.

Yeah. The topic is about the best two players meeting in the semi-finals, not the semi-final being the best match.

I can think of two examples. The most recent one was Shanghai last year. One semi-final was Djokovic-Davydenko, both in great form, and the other was Nadal-Lopez. Given the form of the players involved, I think that the Djokovic-Davydenko match was the real final.

Also back in 2008 in Canada. The semis were Rafa-Murray and Kiefer-Simon. Obviously Rafa-Murray was the decider in that event. In that case more than the first I mentioned, the de-facto final was known at the time. Especially because Kiefer was over 30 years old and Simon wasn't top 20 yet.

mongo
09-13-2010, 10:55 PM
Nadal's and Djokovic's upcoming match reminds me of the time when they played in the Olympics. They played in the semi-finals with Nadal winning 6-4 1-6 6-4. The other semi-final was Gonzalez (12) and Blake (8). Virtually everyone expected the winning of the Nadal(1)-Djokovic(3) match to take the gold and the loser to take the bronze and that's exactly what happened (in straight sets).

This leads me to claim that the real final was the Nadal-Djokovic semi-final, as the two best players in the event (in most people's opinion) were in this match. Do you agree with this? What other occasions do you think there were by far the best two players in one semi-final (or even quarter-final or earlier)? I can think of two other examples, the 2005 Australian Open and 2005 Roland Garros.

In the 2005 Australian Open one semi-final was Safin-Federer and the other was Roddick-Hewitt. I believe that Safin would've won against Roddick and Federer (had he made the final) would've beaten both Hewitt and Roddick. The 2005 Roland Garros semi-finals were Federer-Nadal and Puerta-Davydenko. Again I think that Nadal would've beaten Davydenko as well and Federer would've beaten both other semi-finalists.

Every sport with a "bracket" is susceptible to this. For years, the AFC (NFL) Championship game was the "real" Super Bowl. Then it shifted to the NFC Championship game. This accounts for all the lopsided scores in the Super Bowl, which is rarely competitive.

MLB has two leagues, the NBA, and NHL have two conferences. Tennis has two halves of a draw. By the time they get to the semis, it shouldn't be a surprise when one half is stacked and the other got blow'd up.

If shite like this didn't happen, you ass clowns wouldn't know what to do with all your asterisks.

fed invented god
09-13-2010, 11:01 PM
agreed.

federer was violated in the final

yeaaaaah... that's why he won more points than nadal even after tanking the last set 6-2....

n8
11-06-2010, 09:44 PM
I get the feeling the Valencia semis this year fitted this criteria. Ferrer-Soderling and Granollers-Simon. I couldn't image either of the latter two beating either of the former two this week. Of course I'm wrong if Granollers defeats Ferrer in the final.

leng jai
11-06-2010, 09:47 PM
Haas - Safin 2002 AO.

Oh wait, Safin lost to Johansson :retard:

Certinfy
11-06-2010, 09:54 PM
Garcia-Lopez vs Nadal in Bangkok :shrug:

.-Federers_Mate-.
11-06-2010, 09:55 PM
recent Shanghai match between Fed and Novak.

solowyn
11-06-2010, 10:05 PM
recent Shanghai match between Fed and Novak.
Obviously not, since Roger lost the final :shrug:

Definitely the 2005 RG SF, Fed v Rafa.

leng jai
11-06-2010, 10:08 PM
Obviously not, since Roger lost the final :shrug:

Definitely the 2005 RG SF, Fed v Rafa.

The final was a better match.

Action Jackson
11-06-2010, 10:40 PM
The final was a better match.

Don't use such logic.

solowyn
11-06-2010, 10:45 PM
The final was a better match.
The thread isn't about quality of the match :confused: The winner of that SF was bound to be the champion of the tournament.

Certinfy
11-06-2010, 10:48 PM
Haas vs Federer at Wimbledon.

Beforehand
11-06-2010, 10:54 PM
The thread isn't about quality of the match :confused: The winner of that SF was bound to be the champion of the tournament.

Seconded.

leng jai
11-06-2010, 10:58 PM
The thread isn't about quality of the match :confused: The winner of that SF was bound to be the champion of the tournament.

You can't say that for sure. Whichever way you look at it its not good answer to this thread. Puerta arguably had the same if harder draw and gave a far better match against Nadal.

MIMIC
11-06-2010, 11:08 PM
RG 2008 :p

.-Federers_Mate-.
11-07-2010, 12:30 AM
Obviously not, since Roger lost the final :shrug:

Definitely the 2005 RG SF, Fed v Rafa.

Novak match was more important for Fed than the murray one. Murray needed the shanghai win more than Fed.

paseo
11-07-2010, 09:45 AM
What about this year's Wimbledon? I'm sure Murray would also beat Djokovic/Berdych.

UsD.AnDreS
11-07-2010, 11:13 AM
USO'03 Roddick vs Nalby semi was probably one of such things. Both seemed like favourites for the final..

Certinfy
11-07-2010, 11:16 AM
What about this year's Wimbledon? I'm sure Murray would also beat Djokovic/Berdych.
Well considering Djokovic was more than capable of beating Murray and Nadal in the final and considering that Berdych had only beaten Murray a few weeks back I guess it wasn't. :shrug:

Topspindoctor
11-07-2010, 11:43 AM
Nadal vs Djokovic RG 2008. Federer got a tennis lesson in final, it was an embarrassment for #1 to get a breadstick and a bagel. Looked like first round match.

Action Jackson
11-07-2010, 11:51 AM
You can't say that for sure. Whichever way you look at it its not good answer to this thread. Puerta arguably had the same if harder draw and gave a far better match against Nadal.

The Door wasn't seeded, so he played Ljubicic, Acasuso Cañas and Davydenko before reaching the final.

Andre♥
11-07-2010, 12:14 PM
Buenos Aires 2007

Almagro vs Monaco
Di Mauro vs Hartfield


Las Vegas 2007

Hewitt vs Safin
Melzer vs Korolev


Rome 2007

Nadal vs Davydenko (Nadal barely won - 7:6 6:7 6:4)
Gonzalez vs Volandri

Har-Tru
11-07-2010, 12:53 PM
Haas - Safin 2002 AO.

Oh wait, Safin lost to Johansson :retard:

This is priceless. :lol:

n8
11-07-2010, 10:09 PM
Buenos Aires 2007

Almagro vs Monaco
Di Mauro vs Hartfield


Las Vegas 2007

Hewitt vs Safin
Melzer vs Korolev


Rome 2007

Nadal vs Davydenko (Nadal barely won - 7:6 6:7 6:4)
Gonzalez vs Volandri

Nice digs. Ferrer defeating Granollers solidified my point about the Valencia semis this year.

bokehlicious
11-08-2010, 09:53 AM
USO 2010. Djokovic-Federer was the real final.

This.

peribsen
11-08-2010, 10:10 AM
This.

Pity there was another player in the draw who was good enough to beat whoever won that SF.... and proved it! :cool:

Get over it.

bokehlicious
11-08-2010, 10:14 AM
Pity there was another player in the draw who was good enough to beat whoever won that SF.... and proved it! :cool:


Lucky Rafa, having to face his "greatest admirer" in that slam final, almost as tough as facing Almagro... Djoker seemed happier than Rafa about the result... :o :rolleyes: :zzz:

peribsen
11-08-2010, 10:55 AM
Lucky Rafa, having to face his "greatest admirer" in that slam final, almost as tough as facing Almagro... Djoker seemed happier than Rafa about the result... :o :rolleyes: :zzz:

So you haven't got over it.... :D

rocketassist
11-10-2010, 12:57 PM
Puerta was good enough in that tournament to bother Federer. Not an easy one to call.

FiBeR
11-10-2010, 02:10 PM
Roland Garros 2009
Federer-Del Potro (5 setter)


Vina del Mar 2008
Gonzalez-Cuevas
6-7(4), 7-6(6), 6-2

(literally the semifinal was the final since Monaco injured his anckle in the doubles final and had to give a walkover , gonzalez played an exhibition with ventura as a "final" but the title was in the bag)

makka9
11-10-2010, 05:30 PM
It's true though.. The semi finals/quarter finals are usually more fun to watch than the finals. Well, at least that's how it's been for the last few years. I really hope today is the exception :)

BTW, you are allowed to call the tournaments draws fixed or whatever. Truth be told, they have rules they have to follow. If anyone is to blame here it's obviously the ATP who needs to change the rules, don't you agree?

so true the semis are more exciting and tense then the actually finals lol

n8
12-02-2013, 10:56 AM
Nadal's and Djokovic's upcoming match reminds me of the time when they played in the Olympics. They played in the semi-finals with Nadal winning 6-4 1-6 6-4. The other semi-final was Gonzalez (12) and Blake (8). Virtually everyone expected the winning of the Nadal(1)-Djokovic(3) match to take the gold and the loser to take the bronze and that's exactly what happened (in straight sets).

This leads me to claim that the real final was the Nadal-Djokovic semi-final, as the two best players in the event (in most people's opinion) were in this match. Do you agree with this? What other occasions do you think there were by far the best two players in one semi-final (or even quarter-final or earlier)? I can think of two other examples, the 2005 Australian Open and 2005 Roland Garros.

In the 2005 Australian Open one semi-final was Safin-Federer and the other was Roddick-Hewitt. I believe that Safin would've won against Roddick and Federer (had he made the final) would've beaten both Hewitt and Roddick. The 2005 Roland Garros semi-finals were Federer-Nadal and Puerta-Davydenko. Again I think that Nadal would've beaten Davydenko as well and Federer would've beaten both other semi-finalists.

Nadal v Djokovic Roland Garros 2013 as the other semi-final was Ferrer v Tsonga. Probably the strongest example since Roland Garros 2005.

Cloren
12-02-2013, 11:07 AM
Federer/Djokovic Wimbledon 2012, at that time whoever won the match was pretty much expected to win in the final

Burrow
12-02-2013, 11:10 AM
Federer/Djokovic Wimbledon 2012, at that time whoever won the match was pretty much expected to win in the final

Not in my view.

Murray would've been favourite, for me.

Cloren
12-02-2013, 11:15 AM
Not in my view.

Murray would've been favourite, for me.

Against Djkovic? How? At that time Murray was still considered to be mentally weak, it was a slam final and he wasn't that good as he was afterwards, he improved a lot of that loss against Fed, and also got stronger mentally. But before that Murray wasn't so good and Djokovic was also the defending champion and was looking more impressive than Murray.

Burrow
12-02-2013, 11:23 AM
Against Djkovic? How? At that time Murray was still considered to be mentally weak, it was a slam final and he wasn't that good as he was afterwards, he improved a lot of that loss against Fed, and also got stronger mentally. But before that Murray wasn't so good and Djokovic was also the defending champion and was looking more impressive than Murray.

I completely disagree with this assessment. People seem to think that Murray was better after he won the US Open in 2012. Would they have been saying this had he faced a Federer who was in the same kind of form he was in when he got the better of Murray 3 times? No. They would still claim he was mentally weak because he was being bested by Federer, until he faced a weaker, more beatable opponent which somehow transformed him mentally. Murray was simply outclassed by Federer, it had little to do with mentality. Murray adopted the wrong tactic against Federer in 2 of the 3 slam finals but it was pretty much the same tactic that won him his two slams. He didn't come out against Djokovic like he did against Federer in 2012 Wimbledon final.

In my opinion, Murray's best slam performances came before he won a slam. 2008 US Open semi-final and 2010 Australian Open quarter-final. Murray's performance against Federer was just as good, if not better (certainly the first set is better) than his win over Djokovic this year. The difference was the opponent.

Djokovic will always be the underdog against Murray on grass. Murray serves better, he moves better on the grass, uses the slice well and definitely has more finishing power, if he needs to go down that route.

Tennis-Life
12-02-2013, 11:24 AM
Federer vs Djokovic Roland Garros 2011

August
12-02-2013, 11:27 AM
RG 2011. Fed was playing for Rafa in the SF. Nole-Rafa in the final would've been a NID for Nole, just like Fedal was a NID for Rafa.

elpistolero7
12-02-2013, 11:56 AM
USO 2010. Djokovic-Federer was the real final.

Yep, because Nadal mauled Djokovic in the final and we all know how well Federer fared against Nadal post 08, or for that matter even before LOL.

rocketassist
12-02-2013, 12:02 PM
RG 13 is the most obvious answer.

Tennis4Lyf
12-02-2013, 12:08 PM
If it is not restricted only to slams, then Montreal SF(Nadal-Djokovic) was also one of the best matches in 2013 which was like a final.

USO 2011 (Fed - Djokovic) was also fantastic.

GSMnadal
12-02-2013, 12:12 PM
This year's ACC :lol:

Nadal v. Djokovic at RG is the perfect example for this. Even a gruelling five setter in the semi couldn't prevent Ferrer from getting straight setted

underspin
12-02-2013, 12:25 PM
Federer/Djokovic Wimbledon 2012, at that time whoever won the match was pretty much expected to win in the final

I have to disagree here. Particularly about Djokovic, there was no precedent for how a Murray-Djokovic match would go on Grass, and I know Djokovic had the Wimbledon but I don't believe most people thought Djokovic a better Grass-courter. Now it's possible I get a warped perspective from being in Britain, but there wasn't a feeling that Federer-Djokovic was the De Facto Final, at least as far as my perception.

Federer-Fan
12-03-2013, 01:09 PM
Djokovic-Tsonga, Wimbledon 2011, obviously.

Newcomer
12-03-2013, 01:22 PM
Federer-Djokovic USO 2008,2009,2011 :shrug:

Burrow
12-03-2013, 02:19 PM
Federer-Djokovic USO 2008,2009,2011 :shrug:

Considering Federer lost that final, it obviously wasn't.

GSMnadal
12-03-2013, 02:19 PM
Federer-Djokovic USO 2008,2009,2011 :shrug:

:lol:

2 of the worst examples.... Federer lost to Del Potro and would've definitely lost to Nadal in 2011

Cloren
12-03-2013, 02:20 PM
Djokovic-Tsonga, Wimbledon 2011, obviously.

Nadal would have very likely beaten Tsonga so no

Crisstti
12-03-2013, 03:01 PM
Federer vs Djokovic Roland Garros 2011

RG 2011. Fed was playing for Rafa in the SF. Nole-Rafa in the final would've been a NID for Nole, just like Fedal was a NID for Rafa.

You guys didn't get the point of the thread, did you?. It had to be clear the winner of the semi would win the final. Like Rafa-Djokovic in RG or in Montreal.

RG 2011 simply doesn't fit the criteria since it was not clear at all either Fed nor Djokovic would win the tournament if they won the semi, and in Fed's case it almost was the other way around...

Federer-Fan
12-03-2013, 03:10 PM
Nadal would have very likely beaten Tsonga so no

Tsonga was playing really well. He had beaten Nadal on grass two weeks ago and when it really matters, he always beats Nadal (AO 2008 and WTF 2011). :)

Qampunen
12-03-2013, 08:50 PM
Nicolas Kiefer vs Roger Federer - 2006 Australian Open Semifinal.

Matthew2408
12-03-2013, 09:35 PM
:lol:

2 of the worst examples.... Federer lost to Del Potro and would've definitely lost to Nadal in 2011

And Djokovic had lost to Murray in both Canada and Cincy in the lead up to the US Open 2008 so that wasn't like a final either.

Johnny Groove
12-03-2013, 09:45 PM
Federer Safin AO 05.

tribalfusion
12-03-2013, 09:50 PM
Tsonga...when it really matters, he always beats Nadal

Nice trolling effort. The other 8 times Tsonga lost include a slam, Davis Cup and multiple masters any one of which would have been huge for Tsonga and only 2 of those were on clay.

Police Of Mind
12-03-2013, 10:03 PM
2010 Paris Masters comes to mind. Llodra could've beaten that Monfils and his match vs Soderling was amazing.

Murray vs del Potro at Miami 2009 is another one.

In slams, RG 2013 obviously. Roddick-Nalbandian at the 2003 USO seemed like one but then beating Ferrero would've still been a massive ask for Nalbandian.

n8
12-03-2013, 10:33 PM
Going back a long way: US Open 1998. One semi-final was Rafter v Sampras and the other was Philippoussis v Moya.

LoveFifteen
12-03-2013, 10:49 PM
2013 Montreal SF - Nadal def. Djokovic

The other semi was Raonic and Pospisil.

Goatdal
12-04-2013, 12:08 AM
Tsonga was playing really well. He had beaten Nadal on grass two weeks ago and when it really matters, he always beats Nadal (AO 2008 and WTF 2011). :)

But not on a GS final, rafa only lose GS finals against multiple slam champions.

out of 18 finals played he lost 5, 2 to fed and 3 to nole. No way he will lose a GS final against Tsonga.

You needed Nole in his goat form and Fed on his grass prime (plus baby rafa) to have him beaten on a slam final. Tsonga would have comfortably lost a final against Rafa in 2011.

Tag
12-04-2013, 01:00 AM
Going back a long way: US Open 1998. One semi-final was Rafter v Sampras and the other was Philippoussis v Moya.

Yes

US Open 99 also felt anti-climatic due to Sampras' pulling out from injury

Mark Lenders
12-04-2013, 03:18 AM
Federer vs del Potro RG 2009

Nadal vs Djokovic RG 2013

Nadal vs Djokovic Montreal 2013

Safin vs Federer AO 2005

Federer-Fan
12-04-2013, 08:50 AM
But not on a GS final, rafa only lose GS finals against multiple slam champions.

out of 18 finals played he lost 5, 2 to fed and 3 to nole. No way he will lose a GS final against Tsonga.

You needed Nole in his goat form and Fed on his grass prime (plus baby rafa) to have him beaten on a slam final. Tsonga would have comfortably lost a final against Rafa in 2011.

Jo has the game to beat Nadal on grass. Even on a slow grass.

Pepepaco
12-04-2013, 09:17 AM
Jo has the game to beat Nadal on grass. Even on a slow grass.

:spit:

Federer-Fan
12-04-2013, 10:25 AM
:spit:

They played only once on grass, Jo was by far the better player and he won. :)

Federer-Fan
12-04-2013, 10:26 AM
Nice trolling effort. The other 8 times Tsonga lost include a slam, Davis Cup and multiple masters any one of which would have been huge for Tsonga and only 2 of those were on clay.

I don't care, Tsonga won the 2 most important matches (and his other victory was on grass). :shrug:

n8
01-25-2014, 10:35 PM
Australian Open 2001. One semi-final was Agassi-Rafter and the other was Clement-Grosjean.