Rafa beating Djokovic will say more about Rafa's hardcourt skill than beating Federer [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Rafa beating Djokovic will say more about Rafa's hardcourt skill than beating Federer

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 11:32 AM
If Rafa beat Federer in the US Open Final the haters would simply say it's just a "matchup problem" Federer has, like they always say. But, Rafa beating Djokovic on Rafa's worst surface and Djokovic's best will prove more about how good Rafa actually is on this surface, because Djokovic actually matches up well tactically with Rafa. So while I was disappointed Rafa didn't get the chance to expand his dominance over Federer it may actually be more convincing to beat Djokovic. And Federer will keep reaching the latter stages of Australian Opens and US Opens so no doubt Rafa vs Federer will happen again on hardcourts, hopefully the Australian Open Final when Rafa goes for the mind-bogglingly historical 4th straight slam.

Toaderling
09-12-2010, 11:36 AM
How will beating a five time former champ = beating the eternal USO runner up :retard::retard::retard:

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 11:39 AM
How will beating a five time former champ = beating the eternal USO runner up :retard::retard::retard:

Because you didn't read my post.

I explained it, Nadal has clear matchup advantages over Federer and has ruled him at the Australian Open and Wimbledon. While Djokovic has proven to have matchup advantages over Nadal. Everybody knows it.

And I bet if Nadal beat Federer at US Open we would read threads about Federer being better on hardcourts than Nadal but Nadal only beating him because of the "matchup". Beating Djokovic on this surface in a way is greater evidence of Nadal's hardcourt ability.

Toaderling
09-12-2010, 11:41 AM
So basically you're just stupid?

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 11:44 AM
So basically I'm just stupid?

It appears so.

born_on_clay
09-12-2010, 12:12 PM
If Rafa beat Federer in the US Open Final the haters would simply say it's just a "matchup problem" Federer has, like they always say. But, Rafa beating Djokovic on Rafa's worst surface and Djokovic's best will prove more about how good Rafa actually is on this surface, because Djokovic actually matches up well tactically with Rafa. So while I was disappointed Rafa didn't get the chance to expand his dominance over Federer it may actually be more convincing to beat Djokovic. And Federer will keep reaching the latter stages of Australian Opens and US Opens so no doubt Rafa vs Federer will happen again on hardcourts, hopefully the Australian Open Final when Rafa goes for the mind-bogglingly historical 4th straight slam.

affirmative
:worship:

Jaz
09-12-2010, 12:12 PM
This is one of the shittest threads ever. Federer is the hardcourt king in grand-slams. He might be past it, but hell he have Djoko and Del Potro an almighty struggle.

Nadal will never be known as a Federer hardcourt player than Federer anytime soon.

Persimmon
09-12-2010, 03:04 PM
Federer has won 9 HC slams.

More than anybody else.

manadrainer
09-12-2010, 03:12 PM
Yeah, because Djokovic won 9 HC Slams while Fed... oh wait!

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 03:13 PM
Federer has won 9 HC slams.

More than anybody else.

I still think Rafa will get more credit for beating Djokovic on this surface than Federer. People almost expect Rafa to beat Federer, even though Federer is a 5-time champion here, they see the mental edge and the tactical edge and they expect Rafa will win. Djokovic whereas would pretty much be the favorite (if he's not exhausted, and we may be able to assess whether he's exhausted by his movement). If there is rain and the match is extended to another day then there is no issue of Djokovic struggling physically, and Rafa beating him in straight sets would change the way we perceive him and then consider Rafa to be a better hardcourt player than Djokovic and now a threat to Del Potro. It's hard not to be considered the best hardcourter going around if you set a new record for fewest breaks at the USO.

SheepleBuster
09-12-2010, 03:15 PM
If Rafa beat Federer in the US Open Final the haters would simply say it's just a "matchup problem" Federer has, like they always say. But, Rafa beating Djokovic on Rafa's worst surface and Djokovic's best will prove more about how good Rafa actually is on this surface, because Djokovic actually matches up well tactically with Rafa. So while I was disappointed Rafa didn't get the chance to expand his dominance over Federer it may actually be more convincing to beat Djokovic. And Federer will keep reaching the latter stages of Australian Opens and US Opens so no doubt Rafa vs Federer will happen again on hardcourts, hopefully the Australian Open Final when Rafa goes for the mind-bogglingly historical 4th straight slam.

What does the cake draw or bad scheduling say about Rafa's hard court game? This thread needs to be fed to sharks.

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 03:20 PM
What does the cake draw or bad scheduling say about Rafa's hard court game? This thread needs to be fed to sharks.

Traditionally a top seed only players 2 (sometimes 3) guys in the top 10 during a slam (sometimes less considering that upsets occur, as we saw with Federer's slams last year). Rafa played Verdasco and Djokovic. Verdasco took Rafa to 5 sets last time they met in a hardcourt slam (and that semi was considered a higher quality than the Final between Federer and Rafa). Djokovic ranked number 2, and widely considered the 2nd or 3rd best hardcourt player in the world. Nothing 'cake' about that.

Persimmon
09-12-2010, 03:20 PM
I still think Rafa will get more credit for beating Djokovic on this surface than Federer. People almost expect Rafa to beat Federer, even though Federer is a 5-time champion here, they see the mental edge and the tactical edge and they expect Rafa will win. Djokovic whereas would pretty much be the favorite (if he's not exhausted, and we may be able to assess whether he's exhausted by his movement). If there is rain and the match is extended to another day then there is no issue of Djokovic struggling physically, and Rafa beating him in straight sets would change the way we perceive him and then consider Rafa to be a better hardcourt player than Djokovic and now a threat to Del Potro. It's hard not to be considered the best hardcourter going around if you set a new record for fewest breaks at the USO.

No way. Beating a player that won 5 USOs would have been seen as more prestigious.:wavey:

Just like Fed beating Rafa(4 FOs at the time) at the FO final in 2009 would have been seen as more prestigious....

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 03:22 PM
No way. Beating a player that won 5 USOs would have been seen as more prestigious.:wavey:

That's what I think. But if you read forums after Rafa beats Federer you understand what I'm talking about. The credit is taken away somewhat from Rafa and its suggested that Federer simply has a "matchup problem" with Rafa and that Rafa just hits the high-bouncing ball to Federer's backhand. Federer is still considered to be the better player on tour according to many even though Rafa beats him on clay, grass and australian open hard. At least by beating Djokovic (in straight sets especially) Rafa is given full credit for being the better hardcourt player. If he did that to Federer there'd be some form of discrediting used and it'd be "Federer is old, he'd beat Rafa in his prime" or "Rafa just pushes until Federer hits backhand errors" etc.

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 03:26 PM
No way. Beating a player that won 5 USOs would have been seen as more prestigious.:wavey:

Just like Fed beating Rafa(4 FOs at the time) at the FO final in 2009 would have been seen as more prestigious....

Not true. If Federer beat Rafa at Roland Garros then Federer would get FULL credit. Whereas if Rafa beat Federer at US Open then Rafa wouldn't be given FULL credit. So that's why I don't care now that Rafa didn't get to play Federer at US Open this year. Originally I was disappointed, but now I don't care, because there would be excuses if Federer lost, regarding age or "matchup problems" etc.

Persimmon
09-12-2010, 03:26 PM
That's what I think. But if you read forums after Rafa beats Federer you understand what I'm talking about. The credit is taken away somewhat from Rafa and its suggested that Federer simply has a "matchup problem" with Rafa and that Rafa just hits the high-bouncing ball to Federer's backhand. Federer is still considered to be the better player on tour according to many even though Rafa beats him on clay, grass and australian open hard. At least by beating Djokovic (in straight sets especially) Rafa is given full credit for being the better hardcourt player. If he did that to Federer there'd be some form of discrediting used and it'd be "Federer is old, he'd beat Rafa in his prime" or "Rafa just pushes until Federer hits backhand errors" etc.

I still think it's better for a player's legacy to beat a multiple slam winner at a particular major than a player that never won that slam: Soderling at FO final in 2009 or Nole at USO final in 2010.

Jaz
09-12-2010, 03:28 PM
Beating Federer on a hardcourt, or wimbledon will always be greaty prestigious for many many players.

It's kind of like a "Rite of Passage" right now.

SheepleBuster
09-12-2010, 03:29 PM
Traditionally a top seed only players 2 (sometimes 3) guys in the top 10 during a slam (sometimes less considering that upsets occur, as we saw with Federer's slams last year). Rafa played Verdasco and Djokovic. Verdasco took Rafa to 5 sets last time they met in a hardcourt slam (and that semi was considered a higher quality than the Final between Federer and Rafa). Djokovic ranked number 2, and widely considered the 2nd or 3rd best hardcourt player in the world. Nothing 'cake' about that.

How about bad scheduling? I'd be with you if Novak was not dead tired. I mean to play 4 hours after Rafa took his shower after his cake draw, I mean that's not even fair. We, the U.S., suck at everything. We suck in tennis, in politics, in scheduling, in organizing events, in math. And we have Adam Helfant, the biggest evil force tennis has ever faced, as the head of ATP. Before long, tennis will be discontinued as a sport and replaced by highschool bowling, since that's all we Americans are in to.

Just turn the TV on during holidays... let's say they have Federer Nadal in one hand and kindergarten baseball in another. They always show the latter and show the best tennis match 4 AM in the morning so god forbid nobody sees it. I am so pissed at all people behind US open for this scheduling. Super saturday sucks. Dick Enberg sucks. McEnroes suck. Brad Gilbert sucks.

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 03:29 PM
I still think it's better for a player's legacy to beat a multiple slam winner at a particular major than a player that never won that slam: Soderling at FO final in 2009 or Nole at USO final in 2010.

It is better for the legacy. But it won't make much of a difference to Rafa, since everybody knows he beat Federer on all surfaces. The Australian Open is hardcourt. And Wimbledon was supposed to Federer's backyard. Nadal won't need to do anything more in the h2h department. Now it's just about collecting slams.

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 03:31 PM
How about bad scheduling? I'd be with you if Novak was not dead tired. I mean to play 4 hours after Rafa took his shower after his cake draw, I mean that's not even fair. We, the U.S., suck at everything. We suck in tennis, in politics, in scheduling, in organizing events, in math. And we have Adam Helfant, the biggest evil force tennis has ever faced, as the head of ATP. Before long, tennis will be discontinued as a sport and replaced by highschool bowling, since that's all we Americans are in to.

Just turn the TV on during holidays... let's say they have Federer Nadal in one hand and kindergarten baseball in another. They always show the latter and show the best tennis match 4 AM in the morning so god forbid nobody sees it. I am so pissed at all people behind US open for this scheduling. Super saturday sucks. Dick Enberg sucks. McEnroes suck. Brad Gilbert sucks.

I agree, except for Mac and Gilbert, they're my favorite commentators. I don't like any of the other American commentators.

Jaz
09-12-2010, 03:36 PM
It is better for the legacy. But it won't make much of a difference to Rafa, since everybody knows he beat Federer on all surfaces. The Australian Open is hardcourt. And Wimbledon was supposed to Federer's backyard. Nadal won't need to do anything more in the h2h department. Now it's just about collecting slams.

He beat Federer once on a hardcourt in a 5-set tank.

Like French Open 2010, Wimbledon 2010... viewing figures will be massively down. Federer-Nadal is the peak of all Tennis, legacy wise and history. For Nadal playing Federer and winning the US open is hella lot more prestigious than winning without Federer.

Eitherway him winning will make history.

dombrfc
09-12-2010, 03:39 PM
nadal_slam_king = Nadal_BULLS

SheepleBuster
09-12-2010, 03:43 PM
I am so glad Fedal didn't happen. Stick it up yours CBS!! The U.S., our fans, ... we do not deserve a grand slam. Take this grand slam away from the US and in China or somewhere else. Maybe then, TV will cover it properly.

dombrfc
09-12-2010, 03:43 PM
I am so glad Fedal didn't happen. Stick it up yours CBS!! The U.S., our fans, ... we do not deserve a grand slam. Take this grand slam away from the US and in China or somewhere else. Maybe then, TV will cover it properly.

Well said!

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 03:49 PM
Yep USO is definitely my least favorite slam. Although the WIND is not one of the reasons why. I like how the WIND presents a challenge not seen to such an extent in the other slams, because of the massive Arthur Ashe Stadium. I like that unique quality. They do need a roof on one of the courts though, it's too vulnerable to finishing on a Monday otherwise, especially with the way the scheduling is (if Super-Saturday is rained out).

Ben.
09-12-2010, 03:50 PM
You can't win nadal_slam_king, Rafa will never be given any credit on here. You are 100% correct that if he beat Federer in a USO final it would be discredited as a match up issue, and if he beat anyone else it would be discredited as not beating Federer and ofcourse the moaning about the draw. People just love to apply double standards and ignore any of Federer's easy draws or any other circumstances that were favorable to him. Personally I don't think it is fair to discredit a player's achievements citing things that were completely out of their control, a win is a win, but if people insist on doing it they should at least be consistant and fair. You are often called a tard/troll on here for your threads, but in this instance you are correct.

niezubayern1
09-12-2010, 03:50 PM
I am so glad Fedal didn't happen. Stick it up yours CBS!! The U.S., our fans, ... we do not deserve a grand slam. Take this grand slam away from the US and in China or somewhere else. Maybe then, TV will cover it properly.

Get a life dude. Your whining has gone from being hilarious to just plain pathetic. I'm sorry you're mad your favorite player isn't going to win and his rival might, but deal with it. It's just one tennis tournament, life will go on, I promise.

Now, please tell me why your opinion on it is right and everybody elses is wrong.

SheepleBuster
09-12-2010, 03:52 PM
Get a life dude. Your whining has gone from being hilarious to just plain pathetic. I'm sorry you're mad your favorite player isn't going to win and his rival might, but deal with it. It's just one tennis tournament, life will go on, I promise.

Now, please tell me why your opinion on it is right and everybody elses is wrong.

My problem is not with the players. But with the organizers. If you read my comments, I have been very consistent with my criticism of CBS and US Open organizers. It's not about Roger losing or Rafa winning or whatever. It's about the fact that Super Saturday is a stupid move. That's all.

Manequin75
09-12-2010, 03:53 PM
rafa winning the USO today will be most impressive. Critics questioned his game on this surface. Courts are very fast. Balls are too soft to take top spin. Bounce is relatively lower. And Rafa has lost to relatively lesser ranked players several times here. I think this is about Rafa winning the USO irrespective of who he faces and beats. This was one tournament he could never have won, supposedly.

Manequin75
09-12-2010, 03:57 PM
I still think it's better for a player's legacy to beat a multiple slam winner at a particular major than a player that never won that slam: Soderling at FO final in 2009 or Nole at USO final in 2010.

He would have beaten 7 guys and won this, probably without dropping a set. Rafa's legacy is forever joint with the greatest player in history Roger federer. History would not be able to take the name of one without the other. Dont worry about his legacy. Just keep predicting Rafa losses - thats what you do best. :wavey:

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 03:58 PM
You can't win nadal_slam_king, Rafa will never be given any credit on here. You are 100% correct that if he beat Federer in a USO final it would be discredited as a match up issue, and if he beat anyone else it would be discredited as not beating Federer and ofcourse the moaning about the draw. People just love to apply double standards and ignore any of Federer's easy draws or any other circumstances that were favorable to him. Personally I don't think it is fair to discredit a player's achievements citing things that were completely out of their control, a win is a win, but if people insist on doing it they should at least be consistant and fair. You are often called a tard/troll on here for your threads, but in this instance you are correct.

At least there is less (or zero) wiggle-room now when it comes to the "cake draw" claim, after Federer's 2009 French Open especially.

Well I'm a Nadal fan. "Tard" or "troll" is the word used by a lower class of people, and the word has no respectable meaning. Essentially they are just annoyed that I'm a Nadal fan, and that I'm not going to agree with people who slander Nadal. If Nadal had never beaten Federer, the animosity toward Nadal would never exist.

Ben.
09-12-2010, 04:02 PM
At least there is less (or zero) wiggle-room now when it comes to the "cake draw" claim, after Federer's 2009 French Open especially.

Well I'm a Nadal fan. "Tard" or "troll" is the word used by a lower class of people, and the word has no respectable meaning. Essentially they are just annoyed that I'm a Nadal fan, and that I'm not going to agree with people who slander Nadal. If Nadal had never beaten Federer, the animosity toward Nadal would never exist.

Not having been a member of here for very long, I have wondered when the hostility towards him began. RG2005? RG2006? W2008? It also baffles me that a lot of fans like to say they are Federer fans and therefore true fans of the sport, yet it seems that they would be much happier with no Nadal meaning Federer makig a mockery of the tour and winning everything in sight with no threats to him. Tennis would have become a one man show, the rivalry has been good for the sport.

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 04:15 PM
Not having been a member of here for very long, I have wondered when the hostility towards him began. RG2005? RG2006? W2008? It also baffles me that a lot of fans like to say they are Federer fans and therefore true fans of the sport, yet it seems that they would be much happier with no Nadal meaning Federer makig a mockery of the tour and winning everything in sight with no threats to him. Tennis would have become a one man show, the rivalry has been good for the sport.

I've used a different board, until joining MTF a couple of weeks ago. Not sure if I'm allowed to mention the name of other messageboards here, but the board I've used for 5 years starts with "E" and ends with "N" with 2 other letters in between. On that board it seems like the hatred increased rapidly when Nadal won Wimbledon, and then to a way higher level when he won the Australian Open. Before that the fedfans were happy to call him a clay-court specialist, and considered him harmless.

Yeah I've thought about that, if Federer only ever had to beat Roddick, Murray and Djokovic. I guess we would have seen a continuation of his 2004-2007 career. Except he'd also have won Roland Garros every year. He'd have 5 Roland Garros titles, 5 US Opens, 6 Wimbledons, 5 Australian Opens, and he'd probably have the number one ranking for 2 more years than he has now. Rafa has not only accumulated slams at a younger age than anyone in history he's done it in the face of Federer.

swisht4u
09-12-2010, 04:16 PM
If Nadal would have played Murray and Djokovic it would show a lot more. He will play neither Murray or Fed. Not his fault though, you take what you can.

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 04:20 PM
If Nadal would have played Murray and Djokovic it would show a lot more. He will play neither Murray or Fed. Not his fault though, you take what you can.

Yeah the way I see it, he has a lot more years to win US Opens, and winning this here US Open is very important so he doesn't feel a sense of pressure in future US Opens. So he can take care of Murray/Federer in future without having to "complete the career grand slam". Winning this US Open makes a massive difference (mentally) each time he comes to New York from now on.

He literally has no more important goals left apart from getting to 15-20 slams. OF course he'll aim at winning 4 straight slams, but if he doesn't win the AO 2011 it won't be a big deal since nobody else has won 4 in a row since Laver anyway. But I do think he'll have a huge chance at the AO 2011 now that he's serving better and hitting flatter. He's discovered a lot recently about winning on hardcourts which he can take to Australia.

Persimmon
09-12-2010, 06:26 PM
Beating Federer on a hardcourt, or wimbledon will always be greaty prestigious for many many players.

It's kind of like a "Rite of Passage" right now.

Exactly. Wimbledon 2008 for example.

He would have beaten 7 guys and won this, probably without dropping a set. Rafa's legacy is forever joint with the greatest player in history Roger federer. History would not be able to take the name of one without the other. Dont worry about his legacy. Just keep predicting Rafa losses - thats what you do best. :wavey:

No doubt. Fed is Rafa's bunny.:wavey:

Veronique
09-12-2010, 06:49 PM
Somehow I've a feeling Rafa doesn't care who he plays in the final so long as he wins.

*Brahmin
09-12-2010, 08:00 PM
nadal slam king....can't agree with you more

Mjau!
09-12-2010, 09:04 PM
Nadal beating Djokovic in a USO final would be a big deal if Nole wasn't totally spent. Unfortunately, he is and Rafa's victory will therefore be as meaningless as Federer beating Rafa in Madrid -09.

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 09:15 PM
nadal slam king....can't agree with you more

PARTY ON DUDE!

shiaben
09-12-2010, 09:16 PM
Great thread. Assuming Djokovic isn't burnt out, and feels fresh (unlike Andy Murray vs Federer 2008 USOF), it will be a great evaluation to see how Nadal is tested against an amazing hard court player like Djokovic. It would have been interesting if Soderling and Berdych both faced Nadal at the USO, I hope they do next year. But compared to Soderling and Berych, I prefer Djokovic a bit more, only because he moves more efficient, but if take into account serve, Soderling/Berdych vs. Nadal in a USO match, might be more preferable to watch by some people.

nadal_slam_king
09-12-2010, 09:18 PM
Nadal beating Djokovic in a USO final would be a big deal if Nole wasn't totally spent. Unfortunately, he is and Rafa's victory will therefore be as meaningless as Federer beating Rafa in Madrid -09.

We'll see how Djokovic is moving around the court, and then I'll make an official judgment as to his spentation. Often a player with lethargy will start with leg stiffness (lose 1st set), then play freely (win 2nd set), then become jelly-legs (lose 3rd and 4th set badly).