NATO does it again [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

NATO does it again

Or Levy
02-22-2010, 08:33 AM
Killing civillians by mistake, that is.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/22/afghanistan.civilian.strike/index.html

The UN is somehow silent regarding this incidents. Not one word.

I'm sure the last thing the NATO forces wanted was to hurt civillians, but - the same thing is true regarding Israeli soldiors.

But somehow - The UN is silent, the Arab world is silent, and no new Goldstone is crying out foul and 'war crimes' and writing no report.

So, what's true? The lives of Afgan children worth less than the lives of Palestinians childen? Or maybe Israel just a more convienet target than NATO?

And BTW, unlike Israel, the USO and NATO have no 'self-defense' explantion, so shouldn't what they are doing be considered worse?

Discuss. A serious discussion please. No flames.

JolánGagó
02-22-2010, 09:08 AM
I think everyone is too bussy discussing Mossad's assesination squads as to pay any attention to that...

Action Jackson
02-22-2010, 09:10 AM
I think everyone is too bussy discussing Mossad's assesination squads as to pay any attention to that...

Lillehammer is one of their better efforts.

Or Levy
02-22-2010, 09:13 AM
I think everyone is too bussy discussing Mossad's assesination squads as to pay any attention to that...

Yup.

Or Levy
02-22-2010, 09:15 AM
Lets face it, unless Israel is involved, nobody gives a fuck.

Machiavelli
02-22-2010, 09:34 AM
they could do a CSI:Miami,Las Vegas or New York like version of Mossad, they are a highly efficent crew I must say...

The series would be a TV cracker

zeleni
02-22-2010, 11:56 AM
Lets face it, unless Israel is involved, nobody gives a fuck.
You face it - unless Israel is involved, you don't care.;)
Bet you never heard of Richard Goldstone (from your opening post) before Gaza war, although that prick is involved in dirty business for long time now. ;)
Killing civillians by mistake, that is.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/22/afghanistan.civilian.strike/index.html

The UN is somehow silent regarding this incidents. Not one word.

I'm sure the last thing the NATO forces wanted was to hurt civillians, but - the same thing is true regarding Israeli soldiors.

But somehow - The UN is silent, the Arab world is silent, and no new Goldstone is crying out foul and 'war crimes' and writing no report.

So, what's true? The lives of Afgan children worth less than the lives of Palestinians childen? Or maybe Israel just a more convienet target than NATO?

And BTW, unlike Israel, the USO and NATO have no 'self-defense' explantion, so shouldn't what they are doing be considered worse?

Discuss. A serious discussion please. No flames.
:haha:
Don't be sure.:secret:
NATO kills civilians PURPOSELY, but in Newspeak that is called "collateral damage":awww: While all victims of NATO's enemy are victims of "massacre":eek:, :"atrocities":eek:, "genocide":eek:.

Or Levy
02-22-2010, 12:24 PM
You face it - unless Israel is involved, you don't care.;)
Bet you never heard of Richard Goldstone (from your opening post) before Gaza war, although that prick is involved in dirty business for long time now. ;)

:haha:
Don't be sure.:secret:
NATO kills civilians PURPOSELY, but in Newspeak that is called "collateral damage":awww: While all victims of NATO's enemy are victims of "massacre":eek:, :"atrocities":eek:, "genocide":eek:.

Ah, slight difference. I care what's going on with Israel more because that's where I live. Just like I expect a Palestinian to care more about Gaza and the west bank than people in Afganistan.

What I fail to understand is why the UN/the middle east seem to care more about the civillians from Palestine than civillians from Afganistan.

The main difference is that in one conflict Israel is involved, and not in the others.

Double standard? Where is the UN report who blame NATO of war crimes because civillians got hurt?

zeleni
02-22-2010, 01:28 PM
Yes, double standards. You are stating the obvious.

But you fail to accept that double standards didn't come up for the first time these days (not even if the same participants are included - NATO, UN, Goldstone).

Double standards happened many times before in non-Israel related cases which you don't know or you don't care about. ;)

Or Levy
02-22-2010, 01:36 PM
This post isn't about all the wrongs in the world since the beginning of time (or the 20th century). I'm aware there are more, trust me.

You want to bring it up, do so - and I'll respond (and perhaps learn about things I haven't known about before).

Har-Tru
02-22-2010, 01:43 PM
They should learn from Israel about avoiding innocent casualties.

Henry Chinaski
02-22-2010, 01:46 PM
awwww poor ickle Israel. must be so hard for them to listen to inconsequential international crticism that has zero effect on them or their murderous occupation in gaza. yes, inconsequential. you seem to ignore that crucial fact.

don't you remember the threads about the Islamist group in the UK planning to picket soldiers funerals in protest at the murder of civilans in Afghanistan? there are protests against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan all the time.

Like Zeleni said, it's not that no one cares when Israel isn't involved, it's that you don't.

Nato are incompetent pricks who haven't got the slightest clue about what they're even trying to do in Afghanistan if you really want to hear some crticism. And negligence with such consequences is undoubtedly a crime.

You're point about Israel being an easier target for the UN is obviously correct given the huge overlap in Nato and UN membership.

Henry Chinaski
02-22-2010, 01:47 PM
They should learn from Israel about avoiding innocent casualties.

as in What Not to Do 101?

Har-Tru
02-22-2010, 02:23 PM
as in What Not to Do 101?

Either you missed my sarcasm or I missed yours.

habibko
02-22-2010, 04:33 PM
because the Arab world is more concerned with the situation in Gaza and the crimes Israel commit daily in Palestine than elsewhere, you worry about your 1st neighbor more than your 40th neighbor.

Stensland
02-22-2010, 05:04 PM
they could do a CSI:Miami,Las Vegas or New York like version of Mossad, they are a highly efficent crew I must say...

they are - which is why i doubt their involvement in the whole dubai thing. those guys have been flat out amateurs, killing someone publicly, leaving tons of traces and so on. that's not how the mossad works. in the same way you can basically rule out any kgb (at least the inner circles) involvement in the litvinenko murder.

star
02-22-2010, 05:34 PM
Killing civillians by mistake, that is.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/22/afghanistan.civilian.strike/index.html

The UN is somehow silent regarding this incidents. Not one word.

I'm sure the last thing the NATO forces wanted was to hurt civillians, but - the same thing is true regarding Israeli soldiors.

But somehow - The UN is silent, the Arab world is silent, and no new Goldstone is crying out foul and 'war crimes' and writing no report.

So, what's true? The lives of Afgan children worth less than the lives of Palestinians childen? Or maybe Israel just a more convienet target than NATO?

And BTW, unlike Israel, the USO and NATO have no 'self-defense' explantion, so shouldn't what they are doing be considered worse?

Discuss. A serious discussion please. No flames.

Nice deflection. :) :)

So what do you think about state sponsored assaination and using the identities of real people who now might become targets of violence?

Or Levy
02-22-2010, 08:14 PM
I'm thinking that I don't know how is that different from assasinations using airplanes without pilots like what is going on in Afganistan to kill Taliban commandors, which happens all the time. Only you don't accidently hit innocent people that way. Bombing from the air is a lot easier and a lot more risky for a country than sending operatives.

As for the use of passports, I'm conflicted, loads of problems with it but as apperantly we're talking about people with Duel Israeli citizenship who reside in Israel, I guess they'll be those raising the questions with my goverment, if the Mossad is indeed responsible.

As for the Brits and the Irish and whoever bitchin' about the use of their passport, last time I checked, many of the countries in Europe are communicating and exchanging information with the Mossad all the time, so they can't really cry foul now. Anyway, the passport numbers which were used don't match the numbers on the real passports (these are not stolen passports, I mean), and everyone knows they were fake, so I don't see them really getting detained.

One last thing- if the next argument is "Why not seize him (proven and self confessed terrorist who murdered two captive soldiors) and bring him to justice" my reply would be "Because then they kidnap more Israeli soldiors and demend the relase of terrorist trialed and brought to justice".

Now that I've answered YOUR question (as honestly as I can), how about you answer mine?

buddyholly
02-22-2010, 11:37 PM
Can someone explain something to me? Everyone knows the people involved in the hit were not the people named in the passports. Yet Dubai is asking for the arrest of the people named in the passports, right? Is Dubai knowingly asking for the arrest of innocent people?

And the photos that were published around the world. Are they of the hitmen or of the innocent people? I could not get this clear in the press reports.

And Levy's comment about the Brits and Irish bitchin' about stolen identities is ridiculous. Just because a government co-operates with another doesn't give the other the right to break international law. If Israel did this, I hope the British and Irish governments cut them loose.

buddyholly
02-22-2010, 11:40 PM
in the same way you can basically rule out any kgb (at least the inner circles) involvement in the litvinenko murder.

Everyone knows Putin did it, just as he murdered journalists. They just don't care, there will never be anyone brought to justice in Russia.

Chip_s_m
02-23-2010, 02:12 AM
Killing civillians by mistake, that is.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/22/afghanistan.civilian.strike/index.html

The UN is somehow silent regarding this incidents. Not one word.

I'm sure the last thing the NATO forces wanted was to hurt civillians, but - the same thing is true regarding Israeli soldiors.

But somehow - The UN is silent, the Arab world is silent, and no new Goldstone is crying out foul and 'war crimes' and writing no report.

So, what's true? The lives of Afgan children worth less than the lives of Palestinians childen? Or maybe Israel just a more convienet target than NATO?

And BTW, unlike Israel, the USO and NATO have no 'self-defense' explantion, so shouldn't what they are doing be considered worse?

Discuss. A serious discussion please. No flames.

Doesn't really make much sense to call out your biggest ally regarding their conduct in wartime does it, especially when your country doesn't exactly have a stellar track record?

Chip_s_m
02-23-2010, 02:18 AM
I'm thinking that I don't know how is that different from assasinations using airplanes without pilots like what is going on in Afganistan to kill Taliban commandors, which happens all the time. Only you don't accidently hit innocent people that way. Bombing from the air is a lot easier and a lot more risky for a country than sending operatives.

As for the use of passports, I'm conflicted, loads of problems with it but as apperantly we're talking about people with Duel Israeli citizenship who reside in Israel, I guess they'll be those raising the questions with my goverment, if the Mossad is indeed responsible.

As for the Brits and the Irish and whoever bitchin' about the use of their passport, last time I checked, many of the countries in Europe are communicating and exchanging information with the Mossad all the time, so they can't really cry foul now. Anyway, the passport numbers which were used don't match the numbers on the real passports (these are not stolen passports, I mean), and everyone knows they were fake, so I don't see them really getting detained.

One last thing- if the next argument is "Why not seize him (proven and self confessed terrorist who murdered two captive soldiors) and bring him to justice" my reply would be "Because then they kidnap more Israeli soldiors and demend the relase of terrorist trialed and brought to justice".

Now that I've answered YOUR question (as honestly as I can), how about you answer mine?

Yea, this time everyone knows their fake. How do you know that the next time this happens it won't be clear that forged passports were used and that the individuals whose identities were stolen won't end up being targeted?

And regarding the British and Irish bitching about it, you're argument doesn't make sense. Because they collaborate with the Mossad they allow for the privacy of their citizens to be violated? I guess my passport's up for grabs, too, then. And hasn't this been an issue in the past? Didn't the British bitch out the Mossad for the exact same reason? It's not like the Israelis can legitimately claim that this was a one-time mistake. They knowingly went against the wishes of an ally. I'd be pissed too if I was British and I'd question whether collaborating with the Mossad in the future is in my best interest.

Or Levy
02-23-2010, 04:41 AM
Honestly, I just don't know enough about the Mossad 'understandings' with forgien agenicies to give any kind of educated response.

I'm not sure British operatives have never used faked forgien passport for their activities.(Neither do you). I'm not sure whether the goverments officially condanming REALLY mean it, or are they doing it because it is expected of them to protest but that this is not going to be a big deal. I'm sure no one is pleased, but I don't know if they are as pissed off as they are pretending to be.

What I'm hearing from the Israeli newspapers, is that we're going to get a slap on the wrist, and that's it.

Are we getting only a slap of the wrist because no one can prove it was the Mossad, because nobody cares a Hammas terrorist died, or because forgien agencies (MI-5, etc) are doing similiar things, I don't know. I honestly don't. I think there is more to the story than we'd ever know.

As for the passports - real name, fake passports, fake photos (some of the people there are disguised).

Or Levy
02-23-2010, 04:43 AM
Doesn't really make much sense to call out your biggest ally regarding their conduct in wartime does it, especially when your country doesn't exactly have a stellar track record?

Not calling the US on their actions, I'm calling the UN on their.

My only point, is that Israel can't be the only country/body on the accused chair, if international laws apply - it should apply all around.

Bilbo
02-23-2010, 11:52 AM
funny that this post was started by an israeli especially after the recent mossad story

Or Levy
02-23-2010, 12:02 PM
funny that this post was started by an israeli especially after the recent mossad story

Huh? Say what you want about the recent Mossad story (whether it was the Mossad or not, I don't know), it was exactly the opposite of killing innocent civillians.

The assasins killed a known terrorist who murdered two captive soldiors in cold blood, and was traveling in Dubai under an alias. I'm not sure how it is relevent to the subject of my post at all. Explain please.

Action Jackson
02-23-2010, 12:04 PM
Mossad, my favourite identity stealing was one of an invalid New Zealander who had no chance of travelling abroad.

Bilbo
02-23-2010, 12:33 PM
Huh? Say what you want about the recent Mossad story (whether it was the Mossad or not, I don't know), it was exactly the opposite of killing innocent civillians.

The assasins killed a known terrorist who murdered two captive soldiors in cold blood, and was traveling in Dubai under an alias. I'm not sure how it is relevent to the subject of my post at all. Explain please.

i don't care who got killed. what they did is a break of international law faking passports of known people and killing someone in another peaceful country. how is that legal? i also wouldn't be surprised if netanyahu is involved. he's a top terrorist working under "democracy".

sadly israel will get away with it like each time. that's the only thing bothering me.

Bilbo
02-23-2010, 12:35 PM
Mossad, my favourite identity stealing was one of an invalid New Zealander who had no chance of travelling abroad.

did they got away with it?

JolánGagó
02-23-2010, 01:21 PM
funny that this post was started by an israeli especially after the recent mossad story

You're quite in the right place but slightly off time, about 70yrs late only.

buddyholly
02-23-2010, 01:23 PM
The assasins killed a known terrorist who murdered two captive soldiors in cold blood, and was traveling in Dubai under an alias. I'm not sure how it is relevent to the subject of my post at all. Explain please.

MTF is littered with the anti-Semitic thoughts of this goon.

Stensland
02-23-2010, 01:42 PM
Everyone knows Putin did it, just as he murdered journalists. They just don't care, there will never be anyone brought to justice in Russia.

putin has nothing to do with the journalists' murder or litvinenko. either some fringe kgb group got carried away or someone else (oligarchs, mafia, warlords, gunrunners, you name it, russia has lots of badasses to offer) got rid of people they deemed dangerous to their operations. those journalists were nobodies in russia, there was absolutely no need for putin to kill them publicly.

the kgb, just like the cia, the mossad etc., doesn't poison openly for the world to see but makes people vanish without a trace. that's the essence of secret services. to me there's a higher likelihood that people like abramovich or berezovsky are behind the open hits we're witnessing related to russia.

buddyholly
02-23-2010, 03:05 PM
Ever heard of "The Buck Stops Here?''

Stensland
02-23-2010, 04:38 PM
i do know what it means but i'm not sure if i understand what you're getting at. do you believe it's right to blame putin for hits ordered by abramovich because in the end, they're all russians and it boils down to the kreml for creating monsters like good ole roman?

buddyholly
02-23-2010, 10:56 PM
I just feel that those hits could not have taken place without Putin's approval.

Anyway, I thought Litvinenko had stated that Putin would try to assassinate Abramovich. How does that make you suspect Abramovich had Litvinenko killed?

marcRD
02-23-2010, 11:40 PM
I can understand that middle easterns are angry at Israel, I dont get why Swedish media is obsessed about Israel and doesnt care about conflicts that are literaly 100 times worse in human suffering. It gets scary how the swedish media threats the conflict like the new holocaust and how many terrible scenes of suffering are shown in swedish television to make everyone in Sweden revolt against Israel and demand boycot of their products and even davis cup matches. No one in Sweden demands boycot of China, Russia, Turkey, Sudan or any other country that has been in conflict with minorities, no one really cares about Kurdistan, Tibet, Darfur and many other struggles for independence. So I understand jewish feels there is somekind of antisemitism deeply rooted in societies that critisize Israel, yet I promise you that there are really alot more antisemitism in Israelfriendly USA than in Swedish society, I have never been in touch with any antisemitic feelings with swedish people, except many arabs who live here that is. I think the obsession comes more because Israel is such a close ally with the USA and Swedish media is in general very much to the left, so they see Israel and american conflicts in middle east as a symbol for the struggle against western capitalist imperialism. So dont take it personal Levy, if you come to Sweden and say you are jewish no one will threat you bad but if you say you are from Israel you will get many uncomfortable questions and if you defend Israel most simply wont accept it and think you are defending murdering of little children they have seen in the swedish state television.

JolánGagó
02-24-2010, 07:31 AM
I can understand that middle easterns are angry at Israel, I dont get why Swedish media is obsessed about Israel and doesnt care about conflicts that are literaly 100 times worse in human suffering. It gets scary how the swedish media threats the conflict like the new holocaust and how many terrible scenes of suffering are shown in swedish television to make everyone in Sweden revolt against Israel and demand boycot of their products and even davis cup matches. No one in Sweden demands boycot of China, Russia, Turkey, Sudan or any other country that has been in conflict with minorities, no one really cares about Kurdistan, Tibet, Darfur and many other struggles for independence. So I understand jewish feels there is somekind of antisemitism deeply rooted in societies that critisize Israel, yet I promise you that there are really alot more antisemitism in Israelfriendly USA than in Swedish society, I have never been in touch with any antisemitic feelings with swedish people, except many arabs who live here that is. I think the obsession comes more because Israel is such a close ally with the USA and Swedish media is in general very much to the left, so they see Israel and american conflicts in middle east as a symbol for the struggle against western capitalist imperialism. So dont take it personal Levy, if you come to Sweden and say you are jewish no one will threat you bad but if you say you are from Israel you will get many uncomfortable questions and if you defend Israel most simply wont accept it and think you are defending murdering of little children they have seen in the swedish state television.

your country is seriously sick.

marcRD
02-24-2010, 01:09 PM
your country is seriously sick.

Well, to me Sweden tries too hard to be the conscience of the world but we fail to recognize how we have not stand up to great values in times when the world was truly in danger. In the second world war I belive Sweden was the only country in Europe that really was richer than when the war begun, we let german soldiers pass our country with train to oppress our nordic brothers Norway and we called ourself neutrals even if we exported almost everything to Nazigermany and in every way acted as allies of the nazists. After the second world war (more like in the 70s) Sweden somehow got the idea that we could teach something about great human values to the world and thought of ourselves as an example to the rest of the world, we never really had to take difficult decisions and still today we want to be outside every conflict to point finger at someone (usually USA and Israel).

I dont mind you calling my country sick, I am not that proud of the swedish when we think we can stand in a moral high ground in relation to the rest of the world when we really should deal with our own demons before becoming the conscience of the world.

Stensland
02-24-2010, 04:26 PM
I just feel that those hits could not have taken place without Putin's approval.

why? i don't think it's that hard to kill people when you're a professional hitman. the victims we're talking about here weren't shielded from the public in any way.


Anyway, I thought Litvinenko had stated that Putin would try to assassinate Abramovich. How does that make you suspect Abramovich had Litvinenko killed?

if abramovich was a true pain in the ass for putin, he'd be dead by now. anyways, it doesn't really matter what oligarch is actually behind it. i just refuse to believe that putin would allow such a public lynching in western europe when he could've put some stones on the guy's feet and simply sink him in the baltic sea just as easily. like i said, either this was some ex-kgb fringe group going for vendetta or stuff like that, or it was business-related - which is far more likely, if you ask me. litvinenko had tons of shady acquaintances, from gunrunners to smugglers, ex-kgb hitmen to drug cartel billionaires. i'd think it's fairly easy to get mixed up in all kinds of shenanigans out there.

buddyholly
02-24-2010, 05:13 PM
or it was business-related - which is far more likely, if you ask me. litvinenko had tons of shady acquaintances, from gunrunners to smugglers, ex-kgb hitmen to drug cartel billionaires. i'd think it's fairly easy to get mixed up in all kinds of shenanigans out there.

Business - big and bad.
Politics - not so big and not so bad.

That seems to be your mantra.

Stensland
02-24-2010, 06:08 PM
russian politics - big and bad.
russian business - smaller but even worse.

again, let me ask you: what use does the litvinenko death with all its circumstances have for putin? shock and awe at home? first of all, i believe most anti-kreml agitators knew very well what the kreml was and is capable of. there's just no need to go for another case study, at least not with all the collateral damage (worldwide public outcry, international investigations, diplomatic hassle etc.) stuff like that inevitably comes along with. it just doesn't make sense to me.

what DOES make sense though is hiring a hitman to kill a guy that knows WAY too much about WAY too many things and then blame it on the kreml.

buddyholly
02-25-2010, 04:12 AM
I can't honestly remember. I read a long article in the London Times, but forget the conclusion. I just seem to remember Litvinenko having said that Putin would try to kill him.

JolánGagó
02-25-2010, 07:08 AM
Well, to me Sweden tries too hard to be the conscience of the world but we fail to recognize how we have not stand up to great values in times when the world was truly in danger. In the second world war I belive Sweden was the only country in Europe that really was richer than when the war begun, we let german soldiers pass our country with train to oppress our nordic brothers Norway and we called ourself neutrals even if we exported almost everything to Nazigermany and in every way acted as allies of the nazists. After the second world war (more like in the 70s) Sweden somehow got the idea that we could teach something about great human values to the world and thought of ourselves as an example to the rest of the world, we never really had to take difficult decisions and still today we want to be outside every conflict to point finger at someone (usually USA and Israel).

I dont mind you calling my country sick, I am not that proud of the swedish when we think we can stand in a moral high ground in relation to the rest of the world when we really should deal with our own demons before becoming the conscience of the world.

Exactly. Im glad you realize all that.

BTW is not only anti-israelism, old good antisemitism is alive and kicking there too:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html

marcRD
02-25-2010, 03:56 PM
Exactly. Im glad you realize all that.

BTW is not only anti-israelism, old good antisemitism is alive and kicking there too:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html

It is not the swedes who are behind these antisemitic hate crimes, they are arabs living in Sweden. I can be very critical of my fellow swedes but antisemitism is definetly not an issue among swedes.

bokehlicious
02-25-2010, 04:25 PM
Sweden brought the Swedish girls to the world. For that they must be forgiven for anything they might have done in past history... :o :p

Stensland
02-25-2010, 07:04 PM
@ marc

no matter how much you (rightly so or not, i don't know) diss your country, you do realise that most of the world loves sweden, right? i mean, i guess if germans had to compile a list of foreign countries they love most, there's quite a likelihood that sweden would come out on top, among australia. we love your education system, your friendliness, your girls, your crime fiction and tons more, and so does the world.

and even during ww2 sweden did much better than most european countries, what are you on about?

marcRD
02-25-2010, 08:49 PM
@ marc

no matter how much you (rightly so or not, i don't know) diss your country, you do realise that most of the world loves sweden, right? i mean, i guess if germans had to compile a list of foreign countries they love most, there's quite a likelihood that sweden would come out on top, among australia. we love your education system, your friendliness, your girls, your crime fiction and tons more, and so does the world.

and even during ww2 sweden did much better than most european countries, what are you on about?

Yes, as I have traveled quite alot I have noticed that people really idealize alot of things in my country. I really dont get how our education system can be an example to the rest of the western countries anymore (maybe they once were, but not in my generation), our girls are quite beautiful to watch from a long distance but if you get close you will see that even the sun has it dark spots. When it comes to our friendliness, we are easily friendly to strangers but we do not often become friends with strangers. Our crime fiction is ridiculous for a swede to read, as there hardly is any crime in Sweden, Stig Larsson and Mankell invent a dark Sweden that doesnt exist (ok this is fiction, but all weird conspiracies in specialy Stig Larssons books is incredibly silly).

Most european countries are ashamed of what they did in the second world war, in Sweden most are proud of our cowardly behavior in the second world war (that is what I am ashamed of, not what swedes did before I was born).

Ok, now I am going overboard about this, I love my country but the myth of Sweden is not quite the reality we live in over here.

Stensland
02-25-2010, 09:17 PM
Yes, as I have traveled quite alot I have noticed that people really idealize alot of things in my country. I really dont get how our education system can be an example to the rest of the western countries anymore (maybe they once were, but not in my generation)

well, first of all you have like 40% of students completing university degrees as opposed to 20% in germany (i'm gonna compare sweden to us now, it's the only stats i know). secondly, most people think highly of the efforts sweden puts into early integration at school. in germany, classes get separated at the age of ~ 10, kids get downright selected into "stupid", "okay" and "bright". i don't really wanna google all the stuff but i'm fairly sure sweden has fared way better than germany regarding all things PISA as well, along with finland.


our girls are quite beautiful to watch from a long distance but if you get close you will see that even the sun has it dark spots.

i have yet to see an ugly swede, sorry. on average sweden must be the best-looking country on the planet. even your hockey players look man-pretty, to quote kelso from "that 70s show". ;)


When it comes to our friendliness, we are easily friendly to strangers but we do not often become friends with strangers.

then you're pretty much the opposite to germans: we're in general a hard nut to crack but once we're open, you can trust us more than you'd imagine. we're even getting carried away to the point of being too loyal at times.:D


Our crime fiction is ridiculous for a swede to read, as there hardly is any crime in Sweden, Stig Larsson and Mankell invent a dark Sweden that doesnt exist (ok this is fiction, but all weird conspiracies in specialy Stig Larssons books is incredibly silly).

are you sure? i've watched a long interview with the guy who created the mohammed cartoons, westgard or something. he would say, among many other things, that the scandinavian countries have certain labels within scandinavia. i don't remember what he said about the norwegians and the finns, but he stated the danish are cheerful and jolly and the swedes are melancholic and a bit somber - which is in line with what its crime fiction describes. was he completely wrong?


Most european countries are ashamed of what they did in the second world war, in Sweden most are proud of our cowardly behavior in the second world war (that is what I am ashamed of, not what swedes did before I was born).

as i said, if you compare what sweden did back then with what others did, you win. hardly any country on the planet is able to brag about its clean record from 39-45.

marcRD
02-25-2010, 11:52 PM
well, first of all you have like 40% of students completing university degrees as opposed to 20% in germany (i'm gonna compare sweden to us now, it's the only stats i know). secondly, most people think highly of the efforts sweden puts into early integration at school. in germany, classes get separated at the age of ~ 10, kids get downright selected into "stupid", "okay" and "bright". i don't really wanna google all the stuff but i'm fairly sure sweden has fared way better than germany regarding all things PISA as well, along with finland.


It is very easy to get into some bad universities in Sweden and you get all kind of state benefits like 300 euros every month and you can borrow with low interest rates up to 1000 euros. Last I heard the czech were outperforming us in PISA, Finland has long been the new rolemodel in education and we have just been getting worse results for every year.


i have yet to see an ugly swede, sorry. on average sweden must be the best-looking country on the planet. even your hockey players look man-pretty, to quote kelso from "that 70s show". ;)

I wasnt really talking about beauty, more things that has to do with personality I cant really explain. Go for the norwegians instead, they are as beautiful but more sympathetic. Atleast from personal experience, most people from other countries probably wont ever see any differense between swedish, danish and norwegians girls. I still think czech women and french women are the most sexy on the planet, swedish girls are sexy until they spit like a baseball player on the pavement.



then you're pretty much the opposite to germans: we're in general a hard nut to crack but once we're open, you can trust us more than you'd imagine. we're even getting carried away to the point of being too loyal at times.:D

Yes, we have this reserved friendliness which makes it hard to break the ice too, I only have childhood friends I really would call my friends in Sweden while I have dozens of friends outside Sweden, some I only knew some days when I was traveling and still they would let me borrow the keys to their beach house without a problem. That would never happen here in Sweden, not even if you knew a family for your whole life.



are you sure? i've watched a long interview with the guy who created the mohammed cartoons, westgard or something. he would say, among many other things, that the scandinavian countries have certain labels within scandinavia. i don't remember what he said about the norwegians and the finns, but he stated the danish are cheerful and jolly and the swedes are melancholic and a bit somber - which is in line with what its crime fiction describes. was he completely wrong?

To me scandinavians get more cheerful as you go further to the west or south, norwegians, danish and western swedes (like in Gothenburg) are much more happy with life while eastern Sweden and specially Finland gets more dark and somber. Finnish people are probably the most somber people in the face of this planet, northern and eastern swedes (excluding big cities like Stockholm and Uppsala) are almost up there with the finnish. Even the way they speak in Gothenburg, Malmö and most of Norway and Denmark is very joyful and quite different from the heavy and slow speech in northern Sweden.

This doesnt mean there is secret criminal organisations which control every part of Swedish society ofcourse, the idea of there beeing a swedish maffia has always been an internal joke in Sweden (a norwegian maffia is even funnier).



as i said, if you compare what sweden did back then with what others did, you win. hardly any country on the planet is able to brag about its clean record from 39-45.

Some countries were brainwashed and full of hate, some countries fought couragously for the freedom of humanity (even if they didnt get a clean record) and Sweden took advantage of the whole mess and tried to make money from the war. We were not the worst but compare us to the norwegians who bravely stopped Hitler from getting the atomic bomb, then you cant say we were among the best countries at that time.

Action Jackson
02-26-2010, 12:04 AM
Seems Mossad know stole some Australian passports from its citizens living in Israel.

Action Jackson
02-26-2010, 12:07 AM
Of course there are criminal organisations in Scandinavia for the fuck sake they have them in Iceland. It's run by people who don't want to bring too much attention to themselves.

marcRD
02-26-2010, 01:06 AM
Of course there are criminal organisations in Scandinavia for the fuck sake they have them in Iceland. It's run by people who don't want to bring too much attention to themselves.

Yes, ofcourse there are criminal organisations but in these criminal stories they have organisations controlling every part of swedish society, including politicians, the police and the legal institutions like in Napoli. Stig Larsson who is the most sold author from Sweden was a paranoid communist who actually belived that all rich people were sociopathic perverts who could control every part of society and **** little girls in their basements without getting punnished. Whole milenium trilogy is a femministic/communistic wet masturbation fantasy were rich perverted capitalist men have a reign of terror and democracy is just a facade, where all institutions in society are actually bought and women are threated like animals. If the story atleast took place in USA he could get away with it but the whole deal gets awfully silly when it takes place in quiet, boring social democratic Sweden where a politician's career is over if he forgets to pay the obligatory state TV charge and where we together with the rest of scandinavia tops the low corruption rankings every year.

Henry Chinaski
02-26-2010, 01:11 AM
Sweden has produced a completely disproportionate number or outstanding and influential metal bands thoughout the years. It's something I've always wondered about and it would definitely be worth a sociology thesis for a phd for someone who was so inclined.

Great country in other words.

Action Jackson
02-26-2010, 01:12 AM
Bofors and the Indian government with that arms deal. The Wallenbergs, what they don't exist.

Are the books advertised as fiction, if so then take it for what it is.

marcRD
02-26-2010, 01:22 AM
Bofors and the Indian government with that arms deal. The Wallenbergs, what they don't exist.

Are the books advertised as fiction, if so then take it for what it is.

If atleast Stig Larsson was a good writter maybe his fiction would be more belivable...

Mankell is definetly better, but I cant quite see what the world finds so fascinating in these quite avarage and exagerated swedish bestsellers.

You cant really compare it to english criminal authors like John Le Carre and Agatha Christie.

PS:There are alot of myth about the rich family Wallenbergs in Sweden (which prob comes from the great mass who are very suspiscious of rich people), in reality they are nothing but excellent for the country and the testament of their greatgrandfather praticaly prohibited the profit from the company to go to anything else than to scientific projects.

JolánGagó
02-26-2010, 08:07 AM
Yes, as I have traveled quite alot I have noticed that people really idealize alot of things in my country. I really dont get how our education system can be an example to the rest of the western countries anymore (maybe they once were, but not in my generation), our girls are quite beautiful to watch from a long distance but if you get close you will see that even the sun has it dark spots. When it comes to our friendliness, we are easily friendly to strangers but we do not often become friends with strangers. Our crime fiction is ridiculous for a swede to read, as there hardly is any crime in Sweden, Stig Larsson and Mankell invent a dark Sweden that doesnt exist (ok this is fiction, but all weird conspiracies in specialy Stig Larssons books is incredibly silly).

Most european countries are ashamed of what they did in the second world war, in Sweden most are proud of our cowardly behavior in the second world war (that is what I am ashamed of, not what swedes did before I was born).

Ok, now I am going overboard about this, I love my country but the myth of Sweden is not quite the reality we live in over here.

Rrainer once said Swedes and Danes are quite similar to Germans, so there you go...

marcRD
02-26-2010, 12:46 PM
Rrainer once said Swedes and Danes are quite similar to Germans, so there you go...

Are we? I dont know, I have never been to Germany. Danes and Swedes are fairly different from each other aswell, Danes know better how to enjoy life and talk the ugliest scandinavian dialect imaginable, no one in scandinavia can understand what they are saying (we still can easily read danish).

Stensland
02-26-2010, 01:06 PM
Sweden has produced a completely disproportionate number or outstanding and influential metal bands thoughout the years. It's something I've always wondered about and it would definitely be worth a sociology thesis for a phd for someone who was so inclined.

Great country in other words.

not only metal: take abba and the likes, ace of base, producers like max martin (!), redone (!!), bloodshy & avant etc.

sweden is easily the most succesful music nation on a per-capita basis.

...Sweden took advantage of the whole mess and tried to make money from the war.

hm? didn't you save tons of jews, for example? that's what we get told in history classes over here.

Stensland
02-26-2010, 01:08 PM
Are we? I dont know, I have never been to Germany.

certainly in relation to northern germans, yes, in my opinion. hamburg or bremen could be situated in southern sweden or denmark just as well.

Action Jackson
02-26-2010, 01:08 PM
Are we? I dont know, I have never been to Germany. Danes and Swedes are fairly different from each other aswell, Danes know better how to enjoy life and talk the ugliest scandinavian dialect imaginable, no one in scandinavia can understand what they are saying (we still can easily read danish).

Didn't you know the deal with people in Norden, they are all the same.

marcRD
02-26-2010, 04:36 PM
Didn't you know the deal with people in Norden, they are all the same.

Have you been to Norrland in Sweden? Lappland, Jämtland, Norrbotten.....

If you have been there and been to Denmark you should know the differense between these places is like day and night.

Besides even norwegians are different from swedes, you are patriotic, traditional and most of you live in wooden cabins.

We were speaking about the norwegian maffia, here is something for you AJ:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkWIfrww8v4&feature=related

marcRD
02-26-2010, 04:39 PM
not only metal: take abba and the likes, ace of base, producers like max martin (!), redone (!!), bloodshy & avant etc.

sweden is easily the most succesful music nation on a per-capita basis.

Yes, I wont argue against you there (except UK is better than Sweden even in per capita, the amount of amazing music that country has produced is just amazing). Our metal is great and we have produced some great musicians, too bad most people only know ABBA is from Sweden...



hm? didn't you save tons of jews, for example? that's what we get told in history classes over here.

The dannish were the true heroes and did most work to help their jews to get over to the swedish border, we didnt have to do alot or risk anything to save them. Even England saved many jewish children by adopting them in english families, we didnt care that much really, half of Sweden was sympathetic to the germans.

Stensland
02-26-2010, 04:52 PM
The dannish were the true heroes and did most work to help their jews to get over to the swedish border, we didnt have to do alot or risk anything to save them. Even England saved many jewish children by adopting them in english families, we didnt care that much really, half of Sweden was sympathetic to the germans.

the bond villain mikkelsen starred in an interesting factual movie about that particular time in danish history. sure, the danish had a couple of thousands who did help the victims - but they also had hundreds of thousands helping us. i think regarding jews, italy had been doing fairly well back then. given its strong ties with us, it's quite stunning that only 10% of italian jews were deported. apparently they really took care of their folks.

Henry Chinaski
02-27-2010, 05:09 AM
not only metal: take abba and the likes, ace of base, producers like max martin (!), redone (!!), bloodshy & avant etc.

sweden is easily the most succesful music nation on a per-capita basis.





true but in metal it's insanely disproportionate.

I use the term metal quite loosely but it's hard to overestimate how inflential bands like Entombed, Refused, In Flames, Nasum, Meshuggah, Candlemass, Dark Tranquility, Opeth and At the Gates have been. I could name so many more.

I find it fascinating that some american bands describe themselves as being influenced by the "gothenburg sound". I'm not aware of a similarly-influential guitar music scene elsewhere in the non-english speaking world.

buddyholly
03-01-2010, 04:00 AM
not only metal: take abba and the likes, ace of base, producers like max martin (!), redone (!!), bloodshy & avant etc.

sweden is easily the most succesful music nation on a per-capita basis.





Wow, you have really surpassed yourself in imaginary statistics there.

Action Jackson
03-01-2010, 05:14 AM
Have you been to Norrland in Sweden? Lappland, Jämtland, Norrbotten.....

If you have been there and been to Denmark you should know the differense between these places is like day and night.

Besides even norwegians are different from swedes, you are patriotic, traditional and most of you live in wooden cabins.

We were speaking about the norwegian maffia, here is something for you AJ:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkWIfrww8v4&feature=related

That's it, the wooden cabins rule and that is what I miss most about Norway, this and elk meat.

Or Levy
03-01-2010, 03:34 PM
***Dubai: Israelis will be denied UAE entry
(AP) – 59 minutes ago

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — Dubai's police chief says travelers, suspected of being Israeli will not be allowed into the United Arab Emirates even if they arrive with alternative passports.

Lt. Gen. Dahi Khalfan Tamim says the move comes after the killing of a Hamas operative in Dubai, blamed by the Emirates authorities on Israel's Mossad spy agency.

Tamim said a 26-member team used European and Australian passports to enter the country in January and kill Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.

The Emirates will now "deny entry to anyone suspected of having Israeli citizenship," Tamim said at a security conference in Abu Dhabi Monday.

It was unclear if the measure would apply to Israeli athletes competing in international sports events being held there.***

Well, this topic had been derailed already.

The thing is, it doesn't say on, lets say, American passport, whether you have an Israeli passport as well.

So what I think going to happen, is the next time Roger want to ask Jesse Levin to train with him in Dubai, Jesse may be detained in the airport based on his Jewish name alone. I remember his interview when Roger invited him a couple of years ago, he asked around whether he could go, because he wasn't sure it was safe for him.

As they don't really have a way to find out whether X has an Israeli passport/citizenship, they're going to use profiling based on the family name.

JolánGagó
03-01-2010, 04:07 PM
As they don't really have a way to find out whether X has an Israeli passport/citizenship, they're going to use profiling based on the family name.

Yes, that's what's gonna happen.

Not that racial profiling is anything new in the world, if you try to enter Israel with an Arabic family name no passport in the world will spare you the troubles.

Or Levy
03-01-2010, 04:56 PM
Yes, that's what's gonna happen.

Not that racial profiling is anything new in the world, if you try to enter Israel with an Arabic family name no passport in the world will spare you the troubles.

I'm not denying what you said at all - but that's not the same.

Israel doesn't have an authomatic ban for Arabs/Muslims.

There are businessmen from Arabic countries entering in and out of Israel all the time. Egyptians, Jordanians - countries who allow their citizens to enter Israel, Israel trades with people from the middle east all the time.

Sure, there is profiling at the airport- to find out whether the person seeking enterence is a terrorist/problem maker. If he's from an Arabic country and has a legtimate reason to be here, and he checks out - he will probably enter.

The Dubai police cheif didn't say "We'll check to see whether their passport is a real one/identity if legit because we're worried about more Mossad agents" - this is a general ban against people with a dual nationality, regardless of what they might do.

buddyholly
03-01-2010, 05:00 PM
I hope the ATP and WTA cancel the tennis tournament if they keep this up.

However, I do remember going diving in Israel. An Irish guy arrives in Tel Aviv from the Dominican Republic at the time everyone at a party at the Dominican Embassy in Colombia was taken hostage, including the Israeli Ambassador. Bad timing. I was questioned for a few hours, the same questions over and over. I told them I was going to Eliat to dive and please open my suitcase and see all my gear.......... No, just answer the questions. I was not released until they contacted the dive company and the dive instructor came to the airport for the Eliat flight.
At the time I did not understand the repetitive questioning. Now I do. Far more effective than a fanny pat by some minimum wage youngster.

Or Levy
03-01-2010, 05:27 PM
Ouch, not a pleasent experience, I'm sorry.
The thing is, that if we didn't have top-notch security, not only would there be constant attempts to take down an Israeli plane, but no one would want to fly in here.

Sometimes it is hard to follow their logic, why they ask what they ask, why they pick on certain people and not on others, but I imagine they know what they are doing.

I remember once, when I flew out of Israel, there was an American tourist who had a bottle filled with sand from Timna, which is next to Eylat. The sand is colorful and you get this pattren of stripes within the bottle, layer upon layer of sand.

Security made her open it and shake it. I felt so badly for her, it was just ruined after that.

buddyholly
03-01-2010, 06:36 PM
Ouch, not a pleasent experience, I'm sorry.
I remember once, when I flew out of Israel, there was an American tourist who had a bottle filled with sand from Timna, which is next to Eylat. The sand is colorful and you get this pattren of stripes within the bottle, layer upon layer of sand.

Security made her open it and shake it. I felt so badly for her, it was just ruined after that.

It was a long time go in the early days of profiling. I did not understand why they repeated the same question over and over. Now I do. They were very courteous.

She could have fun reassembling the sand in her bottle - something about entropy comes to mind.

JolánGagó
03-02-2010, 04:05 AM
I hope the ATP and WTA cancel the tennis tournament if they keep this up.

However, I do remember going diving in Israel. An Irish guy arrives in Tel Aviv from the Dominican Republic at the time everyone at a party at the Dominican Embassy in Colombia was taken hostage, including the Israeli Ambassador. Bad timing. I was questioned for a few hours, the same questions over and over. I told them I was going to Eliat to dive and please open my suitcase and see all my gear.......... No, just answer the questions. I was not released until they contacted the dive company and the dive instructor came to the airport for the Eliat flight.
At the time I did not understand the repetitive questioning. Now I do. Far more effective than a fanny pat by some minimum wage youngster.

Yep, they grill you once and again with the same silly questions, not letting you reply before next question is up already. Funny enough I've endured that shit everytime in my way out, never in.

Or Levy
03-02-2010, 05:08 PM
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iCaGiVpXDJQwfh3thAJDEH0q2w6AD9E6JVL01

Hamas aide: Assassinated leader smuggled weapons
(AP) – 22 minutes ago

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — The right-hand man of a Hamas leader assassinated in Dubai has confirmed Israeli claims that his boss supplied weapons to Palestinian militants.

Mohammed Nassar spoke to Hamas' Al Aqsa radio in Gaza from Damascus. A transcript was released Tuesday.

Nassar was an aide to Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, who was assassinated Jan. 19. Israel is widely suspected, but has not confirmed or denied involvement.

Al-Mabhouh allegedly smuggled weapons from Iran to Gaza.

Nassar says al-Mabhouh "never stopped thinking about how to fight the occupation by supplying quality weapons to the Palestinian fighters. "

The aide also describes how al-Mabhouh celebrated killing two Israeli soldiers in the mid-1980s by standing on one of the corpses.

--------------------------------

I don't know whether we did it, but he definitly deserved to be offed.