France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

R.Federer
02-03-2010, 08:10 AM
The French government has refused to grant citizenship to a foreign national on the grounds that he forced his wife to wear the full Islamic veil. The man, whose current nationality was not given, needed citizenship to settle in the country with his French wife.
But Immigration Minister Eric Besson said this was being refused because he was depriving his wife of the liberty to come and go with her face uncovered.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47185000/jpg/_47185686_008615561-1.jpg The full-face covering has inflamed passions in France

Last week, a parliamentary committee proposed a partial ban on full veils.
It also recommended that anyone showing visible signs of "radical religious practice" be refused residence permits and citizenship.
'Integration'
In a statement, Mr Besson said he had signed a decree on Tuesday rejecting a man's citizenship application after it emerged that he had ordered his wife to cover herself with a head-to-toe veil.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/img/laun.gif (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm)
Find out about different styles of Muslim headscarf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/opennews.gifIn graphics (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm)

"It became apparent during the regulation investigation and the prior interview that this person was compelling his wife to wear the all-covering veil, depriving her of the freedom to come and go with her face uncovered, and rejected the principles of secularism and equality between men and women," he said.
Later, the minister stressed that French law required anyone seeking naturalisation to demonstrate their desire for integration.
Mr Besson's decree has now been sent to Prime Minister Francois Fillon for approval.
The interior ministry says only 1,900 women wear full veils in France, home to Europe's biggest Muslim minority.
In 2008, a French court denied citizenship to a Moroccan woman on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam was incompatible with French values.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8494860.stm



No minarets, no citizenship.... is there going to be a backlash?

Black Adam
02-03-2010, 11:56 AM
:lol: @ the French and the Swiss governments becoming the toughest in Europe.

buddyholly
02-03-2010, 12:23 PM
:lol: @ the French and the Swiss governments becoming the toughest in Europe.

If this had happened in the US, ''toughest in Europe'' would be replaced by ''racist in the world.''

Jōris
02-03-2010, 12:40 PM
Good decision. These type of repressive traditions have no place in the free world.

R.Federer
02-03-2010, 12:47 PM
If this had happened in the US, ''toughest in Europe'' would be replaced by ''racist in the world.''

But ... but. .. I mean, ... religion is not a race...



;)

bokehlicious
02-03-2010, 02:35 PM
Can't wait to read Tangy's insightful comments on the matter... :drool:

tennizen
02-03-2010, 02:45 PM
"long ranks of the new oppressors who have risen on the destruction of the old"

:yeah:

Chip_s_m
02-04-2010, 05:57 AM
If this had happened in the US, ''toughest in Europe'' would be replaced by ''racist in the world.''

There'd be protests in the streets of Tehran...

Tommy_Vercetti
02-04-2010, 02:53 PM
There's nothing more disgusting than these Western women who sell out their culture to become muslim wives. They should strip her of her citizenship and kick them out of the country.

Personally, I think all Western societies should enact a similar law to the Expatriation Act of 1907 in order to stop gullible women from allowing Islamic radicals to use them to get into the West.

tedlesurfeur
02-04-2010, 07:11 PM
:lol: @ the French and the Swiss governments becoming the toughest in Europe.

It's not a question about being tough, it's a matter of secularism, one of the French values. If people aren't ok with it, then don't come to France.

Moreoever (I'm not directly talking to you by the way, don't get offended :lol: ), I've seen a lot of people critisizing France over this, but... hey, we're one of the two sole host countries in Europe. We grant a LOT of citizenships :lol: but no one ever recalls it :lol:

Finally, just so you know, French people don't expect people to understand the secularism value, and I'm not sure we care :lol:

JolánGagó
02-05-2010, 06:35 AM
I've seen a lot of people critisizing France over this, but... hey, we're one of the two sole host countries in Europe. We grant a LOT of citizenships :lol: but no one ever recalls it :lol:

what does that even mean?

Echoes
02-07-2010, 11:08 AM
It's not a question about being tough, it's a matter of secularism, one of the French values. If people aren't ok with it, then don't come to France.

If you'd said it was a question of identification, I'd be OK. But don't bring me this shit again.

Anyway great decision that probably won't concern more than 3 persons in the whole country. The French definitely are a strange people. :lol:

tedlesurfeur
02-07-2010, 11:22 AM
blah blah blah

JolánGagó
02-07-2010, 11:27 AM
this in a country that forbids asking people about their race or ethnicity :tape: :spit:

tedlesurfeur
02-07-2010, 12:17 PM
this in a country that forbids asking people about their race or ethnicity :tape: :spit:

It's not forbidden, but it's not taken into account. You should learn from your ignorance and your mistakes :wavey:
I won't post here anymore, it's pointless and useless :haha: especially with some people about whom I reveived comments :lol:

elessar
02-07-2010, 02:29 PM
So much disinformation about this in the french media already it's not surprising it's even worse on MTF :zzz:

The French Council of State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_State_%28France%29) has already ruled that a wife wearing a Burka, or other types of islamic veils, cannot,on its own, be grounds for a denial of citizenship for the husband. However, to gain French citizenship you have to show you're willing to adopt/assimilate, among others, the republican principles of equality between sexes. Her interview showed she lived in complete submission to her husband and the men in her family and it didn't even occur to her to question it.

Can't say I'm too sad a guy like that doesn't have French citizen ship, but those kinds of pseudo actions by our government are starting to piss me off.

elessar
02-07-2010, 02:37 PM
If you'd said it was a question of identification, I'd be OK. But don't bring me this shit again.

Anyway great decision that probably won't concern more than 3 persons in the whole country. The French definitely are a strange people. :lol:
Secularism is a very convenient excuse in France ATM, but it'd be ridiculous to deny how important it is for French people and to think every decision is down to anti muslim sentiment.

habibko
02-07-2010, 02:49 PM
whoever wears a burka anywere except Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan deserves whatever she gets, and whoever forces them to do that deserve legal sentences, it is not part of Islam but only old traditions that should be dead already :cuckoo:

Rafa = Fed Killa
02-07-2010, 05:32 PM
Ah the French

... is there anyone more tolerate of other races/religions

... and how wonderful they act towards non white people in soccer matches

ALLEZ :rolleyes:

Rafa = Fed Killa
02-07-2010, 05:33 PM
whoever wears a burka anywere except Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan deserves whatever she gets, and whoever forces them to do that deserve legal sentences, it is not part of Islam but only old traditions that should be dead already :cuckoo:

How is someone choosing to wear something bad :confused:

habibko
02-07-2010, 05:59 PM
How is someone choosing to wear something bad :confused:

what do you mean? :scratch: it is not bad per se, I also believe a really secular and liberal society should allow women to wear veil wherever they want, that includes schools, college etc, and it's disgusting that girls who choose to wear such are persecuted in the name of secularism.

but the burka is another matter and has no place in Europe.

JolánGagó
02-07-2010, 08:04 PM
It's not forbidden, but it's not taken into account. You should learn from your ignorance and your mistakes :wavey:
I won't post here anymore, it's pointless and useless :haha: especially with some people about whom I reveived comments :lol:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8PfFfY1JXwc/SMnjNOl3H5I/AAAAAAAAAA0/GOgnDJjoF-k/s400/drama_queen[1].JPG

star
02-07-2010, 08:53 PM
whoever wears a burka anywere except Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan deserves whatever she gets, and whoever forces them to do that deserve legal sentences, it is not part of Islam but only old traditions that should be dead already :cuckoo:


I see no reason to make an exception for these countries. The way women are degraded and persecuted there is intolerable. It has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with masculine hegemony and cruelty.

elessar
02-07-2010, 09:04 PM
Can't speak for Habibko but, perhaps he means that since you can actually get arrested in those countries if you don't wear a hijab or a Burka it's understandable that people don't want to take a risk. Whereas in other countries nobody can legally force you to do it.

Otherwise I agree with you, obviously, it's ridiculous that people pretend veils exist for another purpose than to control/enslave women. It's not exactly a rare thing in religion, though the bible really outdoes itself on this issue:

Corinthians 11:6
If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

habibko
02-07-2010, 09:34 PM
I see no reason to make an exception for these countries. The way women are degraded and persecuted there is intolerable. It has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with masculine hegemony and cruelty.

I made an exception for them because it's the norm there for women and girls to cover their faces out of strict religious interpretations and strong cultural and social influence and pressure, even though it isn't that much the case anymore and it's the norm for more liberal cities like mine for girls to show their face in public, while older women keep covering their faces.

I'm not saying it's ok in such circumstances either, but it's understandable when they do it, for example my mother and sisters cover their faces here but take the burka off when they leave Saudia, so they wear it out of pressure and tradition and not because they believe it's a religious duty, and it's understandable in both cases.

Can't speak for Habibko but, perhaps he means that since you can actually get arrested in those countries if you don't wear a hijab or a Burka it's understandable that people don't want to take a risk. Whereas in other countries nobody can legally force you to do it.

Otherwise I agree with you, obviously, it's ridiculous that people pretend veils exist for another purpose than to control/enslave women. It's not exactly a rare thing in religion, though the bible really outdoes itself on this issue:

Corinthians 11:6
If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

in the past you could be persecuted in Saudia and not so distant past by Taliban in Afghanistan, but it's better these days, anyway see above for my explanation..

the point is, wheather a girl wears the hijab out of piety or enslavement, it's her right to wear whatever she wants, that's what freedom, liberty and true secularism should be like.

elessar
02-07-2010, 09:53 PM
I thought you could still get in trouble if you dressed inappropriately in SA for example, are shorts and a tee shirt OK, for example, or are you fine only if all parts of your body are covered appart from your face/hair?

If she wears it out of "enslament" it's not what she wants and it can't really be a freedom for her to do so.

I understand that it's as much due to tradition as it can be to religion, but I struggle to find any logical reason to wear a veil. Full islamic veils on top of being highly impractical, completely cut you off from the world, it's barbaric. I've read stories of women who really do start wearing those types of veils without any external pressure, but to me it's like deciding to become a recluse and usually a sign of a deeper trouble...

habibko
02-07-2010, 10:07 PM
I thought you could still get in trouble if you dressed inappropriately in SA for example, are shorts and a tee shirt OK, for example, or are you fine only if all parts of your body are covered appart from your face/hair?

yes you would get into trouble if you didn't wear a veil or an abaya in public, however it's less strict for non-Saudi women whom usually walk around with only an abaya and no veil on their heads, I've seen some Saudi girls go around like that as well, but surely you can't go around with a mini-skirt or shorts :tape:

If she wears it out of "enslament" it's not what she wants and it can't really be a freedom for her to do so.

I understand that it's as much due to tradition as it can be to religion, but I struggle to find any logical reason to wear a veil. Full islamic veils on top of being highly impractical, completely cut you off from the world, it's barbaric. I've read stories of women who really do start wearing those types of veils without any external pressure, but to me it's like deciding to become a recluse and usually a sign of a deeper trouble...

I understand your point of view, though I'm sure you wouldn't be looking at it this negatively if you were brought up in SA for example, cultural/religious influence is a powerful force in determining what we consider right or wrong and how we view such issues, despite that freedom must be given to women who choose to disagree with you to make their own choices on what they decide to wear and what they won't, and yes I agree that enforcing any dress code of the like is barbaric and should only be out of self-conviction.

star
02-07-2010, 10:28 PM
I understand your point of view, though I'm sure you wouldn't be looking at it this negatively if you were brought up in SA for example, cultural/religious influence is a powerful force in determining what we consider right or wrong and how we view such issues, despite that freedom must be given to women who choose to disagree with you to make their own choices on what they decide to wear and what they won't, and yes I agree that enforcing any dress code of the like is barbaric and should only be out of self-conviction.

But nevertheless, it is enforced there. And there are still honor killings in both countries. **** is a charge a woman will be reluctant to bring because she might well be the one who is punished for it. Women can't drive cars. It's a total lack of freedom for women.

And, of course, it's cultural. But slavery was also a cultural norm for Arabia as well as Europe and the Americas. That has been done away with (although I realize it was only rather recently for some countries on the peninsula. ) So, the idea that it is a cultural norm strikes me more of an excuse or a lack of will.

elessar
02-07-2010, 10:31 PM
yes you would get into trouble if you didn't wear a veil or an abaya in public, however it's less strict for non-Saudi women whom usually walk around with only an abaya and no veil on their heads, I've seen some Saudi girls go around like that as well, but surely you can't go around with a mini-skirt or shorts :tape:
I always knew Mecca should have been in Alaska, would have been much easier to follow those rules there than in a scorching hot desert :p
I understand your point of view, though I'm sure you wouldn't be looking at it this negatively if you were brought up in SA for example, cultural/religious influence is a powerful force in determining what we consider right or wrong and how we view such issues, despite that freedom must be given to women who choose to disagree with you to make their own choices on what they decide to wear and what they won't, and yes I agree that enforcing any dress code of the like is barbaric and should only be out of self-conviction.
It would, indeed, be difficult of me to pretend that being a women atheist raised in Europe has no bearing on my opinion of veils :lol: In general, I do try not to let my cultural upbringing influence my view of things and to see things from other people POVs but there are a few topics for which I find it more difficult than others. Veils are one of them and I just can't help wishing nobody would wear them, forced or not.

habibko
02-07-2010, 10:41 PM
But nevertheless, it is enforced there. And there are still honor killings in both countries. **** is a charge a woman will be reluctant to bring because she might well be the one who is punished for it. Women can't drive cars. It's a total lack of freedom for women.

And, of course, it's cultural. But slavery was also a cultural norm for Arabia as well as Europe and the Americas. That has been done away with (although I realize it was only rather recently for some countries on the peninsula. ) So, the idea that it is a cultural norm strikes me more of an excuse or a lack of will.

it is what it is, most women in Saudia seem to accept their conditions and that's what is delaying change, when an influencial man publicly suggested that it's time for women to drive women started campaigning in newspapers that they don't want to drive, it's hard to change the culture of societies when they are deeply conservative in nature.

anyway the thread isn't about the status of women in Saudia so we are heading off-topic now >__>

I always knew Mecca should have been in Alaska, would have been much easier to follow those rules there than in a scorching hot desert :p

:rolls: well they believe their heavenly rewards are proportional to their efforts according to Islamic belief so they don't mind that, props to them no? :yeah:

It would, indeed, be difficult of me to pretend that being a women atheist raised in Europe has no bearing on my opinion of veils :lol: In general, I do try not to let my cultural upbringing influence my view of things and to see things from other people POVs but there are a few topics for which I find it more difficult than others. Veils are one of them and I just can't help wishing nobody would wear them, forced or not.

I understand that =) but the vast majority of women in the Islamic world don't see it like you do.

Getta
02-07-2010, 10:44 PM
an old post (http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=6319120&postcount=149) of mine.

too tired to elaborate beyond now so shall i end here.

... and yes I agree that enforcing any dress code of the like is barbaric and should only be out of self-conviction.

OK, i'll make an exception for this. :lol:

it's not simply a matter of enforcing a dress code... is that warm glance and smiling indicate we want to communicate with someone... laugh lines are charming and can break the tension, and also help us decipher the real feelings of the ones we look at...

habibko
02-07-2010, 10:51 PM
an old post (http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=6319120&postcount=149) of mine.

too tired to elaborate beyond now so shall i end here.



OK, i'll make an exception for this. :lol:

it's not simply a matter of enforcing a dress code... is that warm glance and smiling indicate we want to communicate with someone... laugh lines are charming and can break the tension, and also help us decipher the real feelings of the ones we look at...

yes and that's my big problem with covering the face, and it's even bigger a problem when done in the name of Islam when it isn't.

leave the face cover for ninjas and assassins FFS.

star
02-07-2010, 11:10 PM
I understand that =) but the vast majority of women in the Islamic world don't see it like you do.

:rolleyes: I don't think the vast majority of women in the Islamic world think it necessary to cover every inch of their body with fabric. This isn't a choice they are making. It's a choice made for them. How many ditch the veil when they are abroad? That means it's not a choice for themselves. Furthermore before the more recent times of fundamentalism most women in Islamic countries were not even wearing headscarves as they do now.

It's easy to say it's a choice when there are no other choices available. It's just like saying in 1850 that women chose not to have careers. The choice wasn't available.

Plus, I am always annoyed when a man puts himself in the position of being a spokesperson for women.

habibko
02-07-2010, 11:20 PM
:rolleyes: I don't think the vast majority of women in the Islamic world think it necessary to cover every inch of their body with fabric. This isn't a choice they are making. It's a choice made for them. How many ditch the veil when they are abroad? That means it's not a choice for themselves. Furthermore before the more recent times of fundamentalism most women in Islamic countries were not even wearing headscarves as they do now.

It's easy to say it's a choice when there are no other choices available. It's just like saying in 1850 that women chose not to have careers. The choice wasn't available.

not all of them ditch their veils and they still believe it's a religious obligation that they are supposed to follow even if they ditched it, so they don't share Claire's view about it being enslavement with no logical reason, maybe some of them do share that view but from what I know none of them do.

they have the choice in Europe and some still wear burqas there, and many wear the Islamic veil as you should know.

Plus, I am always annoyed when a man puts himself in the position of being a spokesperson for women.

I speak from what I know about my society, there is no Saudi girl in MTF and even if there was she can't speak in place of all Saudi women, why ignore the questions when they are directed to me? :shrug:

R.Federer
02-07-2010, 11:46 PM
they have the choice in Europe and some still wear burqas there, and many wear the Islamic veil as you should know.



I think the main point behind this refusal of citizenship was that they are not wearing it because they want to. Many others who don't want to might still say they do because of the pressure/abuse they could receive for saying something the husband espouses.

elessar
02-08-2010, 12:05 AM
I think people are missing the point here, the woman already had French citizenship. It was her husband who was applying for it but was found not to respect the principle of equality between sexes.

Echoes
02-08-2010, 04:38 PM
Secularism is a very convenient excuse in France ATM, but it'd be ridiculous to deny how important it is for French people and to think every decision is down to anti muslim sentiment.

Most people, French or others, don't even know what secularism really is. It's usually thought to be the separation between the State and the Church, while it's actually the distinction between the spiritual and the temporal. Banning religious signs in the name of moral values or whatever is an infringement of secularism between both.

I am against women wearing burqa's but first of all I don't think a law is needed at this moment and it's frightening to think it is needed. And secondly, the real reason for banning burqa's should be a matter of identification because it is a more "temporal" reason than the ideal of "secularism" (sic).

star
02-08-2010, 04:55 PM
Here's another nice thing about "cultrual" choices.

An 80 year old man has a 12 year old bride who has to be taken to the hospital after he consumates the marriage.

http://www.inquisitr.com/58451/saudi-girl-12-married-off-to-80-year-old-man/

elessar
02-08-2010, 11:47 PM
Most people, French or others, don't even know what secularism really is. It's usually thought to be the separation between the State and the Church, while it's actually the distinction between the spiritual and the temporal. Banning religious signs in the name of moral values or whatever is an infringement of secularism between both.
The truth is french people never talk about secularism but only of "laďcité" which is accepted by all as separation between church and state. I thought secularism was the exact same thing as that, but apparently I'm wrong. Doesn't change my point in any way.
I am against women wearing burqa's but first of all I don't think a law is needed at this moment and it's frightening to think it is needed. And secondly, the real reason for banning burqa's should be a matter of identification because it is a more "temporal" reason than the ideal of "secularism" (sic).
The real reason for banning burqa is that it is a symbol of opression and inequality, no need to get philosophical about it.

Echoes
02-09-2010, 01:50 PM
The French term laďcité refers to the distinction between the temporal and the spiritual ("give Caesar what belongs to Caesar and God what belongs to God"). I'm French-speaking. ;)


The real reason for banning burqa is that it is a symbol of opression and inequality, no need to get philosophical about it.

But that's already a philosophical statement, isn't it?

Rafa = Fed Killa
02-10-2010, 03:23 AM
The real reason for banning burqa is that it is a symbol of opression and inequality, no need to get philosophical about it.

So is a guy who wears a turban a symbol of opression and inequality because he is different.

What is it in French culture which dislikes different religious beliefs.

If a woman wants to wear a burqa its her right, if she doenst want to wear one thats also her right.

Your argument is completely illogical.

Nidhogg
02-10-2010, 06:02 PM
A recent topic of discussion in Sweden right now is how a great deal of women who originate from Somalia have become deficient of vitamin D partly due to their burqas. That is bad in itself, but there is also a great risk that when they become pregnant that deficiency is passed on to their children, who as a result risk developing autism.

The darker your skin is, the more sun you need if it's your main source of obtaining vitamin D. It's unfortunate.

marcRD
02-10-2010, 10:06 PM
The same should be done in Sweden, because 90% of the time it is not the woman who choses to use the veil but she is forced by her husband or by the religion. In most countries you cant dress up how you want to, I cant dress without clothes because it offends people and the same goes with the burka, it is not part of the society in Sweden and women who dresses like that is complete outsiders in society and wont ever get a job or integrate to our way of life. Daughters who are forced to use burkas by their fathers are nothing else than slaves under the will of the family and to hide behind the freedom of choise in european countries to protect something which is so deeply connected with a lack of freedom for women is very ironic.

R.Federer
03-04-2010, 07:13 PM
Didn't want to start a new thread.

Is this just coincidence, or after Switzerland and France, is it snowballing into something much bigger through the euro zone?

Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders makes strong showing in local polls (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/7367086/Dutch-anti-Islam-MP-Geert-Wilders-makes-strong-showing-in-local-polls.html)


Mr Wilders's far-Right Party for Freedom (PVV) made a strong showing in local polls held Wednesday, while the traditionally strong Christian Democratic (CDA) and Labour (PvdA) parties lost support, early results showed.
The PVV came first and second in the only two of 394 municipalities it contested.

It was the strongest party with 21.6 per cent of the vote in Almere, a city of 187,000 people near the capital Amsterdam previously won by the PvdA, and came second in the seat of government, The Hague - the Netherlands' third largest city with 442,000 residents.
"What is possible in The Hague and Almere is possible all over the country," said Mr Wilders, who is awaiting a hate speech trial for calling Islam a fascist religion and likening the Koran to Hitler's Mein Kampf.
Mr Wilders was arrested and deported from Heathrow in February 2009 after the Home Office banned him on the grounds "that his presence in the UK could foster hatred and threaten community harmony in light of his anti-Muslim rhetoric".
This was the first municipal election for the PVV, with its mission of "fighting the Islamisation of the Netherlands".
The Netherlands' two biggest parties, the Christian Democratic Appeal and Labour Party, lost about two and six percentage points respectively with 93 per cent of the vote counted by Thursday morning, two weeks after their governing coalition collapsed at a national level.
The CDA of Jan Peter Balkenende, the outgoing prime minister, had dropped about two percentage points from 16.83 per cent in 2006.
The PvdA, the strongest party in the last round of municipal polls in 2006 with 23.45 per cent of the vote, now stood at about 16 per cent.
The CDA and PvdA had been in government nationally until January 20, when Wouter Bos, then finance minister and vice premier, withdrew his Labour party from the coalition in a spat over extending the Netherlands' military presence in Afghanistan.
Mr Balkenende now leads an interim government until early national elections brought forward to June 9.
Some 12 million Dutch out of a total population of 16.5 million were registered to vote in Wednesday's elections, viewed as a test of political loyalties and far-Right leanings ahead of national polls.