Infidelity : Healthy or Not [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Infidelity : Healthy or Not

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 06:01 AM
its not that life is so short. its just that we are all dead for so bloody long.

why must you or anyone suffer if trapped in an unhealthy and stale and relationship that keeps you from exploring, discovering, and growing from all that the world has to offer.

its just not that simple to walk away or to end relationships. people, on the average, do not know where to even begin to try to end a hopeless situation they might find themselves in.

others are just versatile and have more than enough vitality to indulge in their subjective propensities. it keeps them going. its just human nature. some do prefer to live on the edge anyway. that is what makes them who they are and yet there must be something still missing from their lives so they choose to exercise their options.

i dont want to throw any numbers around but with 1/2 to 2/3 of the marriages ending in divorces in some parts of the western world, you can bet your last dollar that a lot of folks are trapped in unhealthy situations at one time or another.

infidelity may just be the first step to lessen the hardships of an unhealthy relationship. it can also be a first step to freedom which may open the doors to all that the world has to offer. why not go after what is rightfully yours before time runs out. you know that all is fleeting and all must end.

the floor is yours. discuss the pros and cons of infidelity? is it healthy within the context of such a short life and with opportunities accordingly fleeting?

mandeep
12-10-2009, 06:21 AM
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhahahahah!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 06:23 AM
its not that life is so short. its just that we are all dead for so bloody long.

why must you or anyone suffer if trapped in an unhealthy and stale and relationship that keeps you from exploring, discovering, and growing from all that the world has to offer.

its just not that simple to walk away or to end relationships. people, on the average, do not know where to even begin to try to end a hopeless situation they might find themselves in.

others are just versatile and have more than enough vitality to indulge in their subjective propensities. it keeps them going. its just human nature. some do prefer to live on the edge anyway. that is what makes them who they are and yet there must be something still missing from their lives so they choose to exercise their options.

i dont want to throw any numbers around but with 1/2 to 2/3 of the marriages ending in divorces in some parts of the western world, you can bet your last dollar that a lot of folks are trapped in unhealthy situations at one time or another.

infidelity may just be the first step to lessen the hardships of an unhealthy relationship. it can also be a first step to freedom which may open the doors to all that the world has to offer. why not go after what is rightfully yours before time runs out. you know that all is fleeting and all must end.

the floor is yours. discuss the pros and cons of infidelity? is it healthy within the context of such a short life and with opportunities accordingly fleeting?

A better question: Is it right?

It is not.

habibko
12-10-2009, 06:27 AM
that's why people should have the option of divorce, I mean religiously, and also marrying more than one, it's only compatible with men nature, well most of men anyway.

guess Sharia law isn't that bad afterall!!

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 06:36 AM
that's why people should have the option of divorce, I mean religiously, and also marrying more than one, it's only compatible with men nature, well most of men anyway.

guess Sharia law isn't that bad afterall!!

Disgusting. Sharia is so biased against women it sickens me. A bunch of pervs writing laws to suit their lusts.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 06:41 AM
that's why people should have the option of divorce, I mean religiously, and also marrying more than one, it's only compatible with men nature, well most of men anyway.

guess Sharia law isn't that bad afterall!!


you bring up an interesting point habs. out in california they are experimenting with marriages with "renewable options". it is very much like a business contract.

at the end of the each term--however long it happens to be and it may just 1 year--both parties sit down and discuss if their individual and repective needs are being met and if the terms of the relationships are being managed in an optimal fashion.

that is the direction some of western world may have to go eventually. otherwise with 1/2 to 2/3 of the marriages ending up in divorces, there are a lot of unhappy people out trhere and many of them do consider infidelity as an option.

habibko
12-10-2009, 06:42 AM
Disgusting. Sharia is so biased against women it sickens me. A bunch of pervs writing laws to suit their lusts.

your Christian view of marriage isn't much more functional, it's basically dysfunctional and countless people legally divorce with complete disregard to what church says, sticking two individuals eternally together is against human nature.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 06:45 AM
A better question: Is it right?

It is not.


so it is right to be miserable, unhappy, and deprive yourself of much growth as a person? and also right to deny yourself of all that the world has to offer.

what is the ultimate end in life old sport? by most accounts, its happiness that is the ultimate end to which everything else is merely means.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 06:48 AM
your Christian view of marriage isn't much more functional, it's basically dysfunctional and countless people legally divorce with complete disregard to what church says, sticking two individuals eternally together is against human nature.


aloimeh is my friend and i obviously mean no disrespect for him but i am going to have to agree with habs here.

if it leads to a unhealthy situation--mentally, physically, and spiritually-- that also deprives these 2 individuals of any growth as a human beings then other options may need to be exercised.

habibko
12-10-2009, 06:50 AM
aloimeh is my friend and i obviously mean no disrespect for him but i am going to have to agree with habs here.

if it leads to a unhealthy situation--mentally, physically, and spiritually-- that also deprives these 2 individuals of any growth as a human beings then other options may need to be exercised.

those options must not include infidelity though, if you want to cheat on your wife divorce her first and then do what you want, that's the right thing to do in my opinion.

and same goes with women and their husbands naturally, the bond of marriage is to be respected.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 06:56 AM
those options must not include infidelity though, if you want to cheat on your wife divorce her first and then do what you want, that's the right thing to do in my opinion.

and same goes with women and their husbands naturally, the bond of marriage is to be respected.

habs it is what it is. that option is being exercised very heavily in the west.

it is very much in place. now what i am asking people is to determine if this option is "healthy" or "not".

all the evidence and the research says that it is healthy in countless ways. what do the people of MTF say?

habibko
12-10-2009, 06:58 AM
habs it is what it is. that option is being exercised very heavily in the west.

it is very much in place. now what i am asking people is to determine if this option is "healthy" or "not".

all the evidence and the research says that it is healthy in countless ways. what do the people of MTF say?

murder and robbery are also being exercised very heavily around the world, should we say it is what it is and seek means to legalize and condone them as well?

what is wrong is wrong no matter how many people practice it.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 07:03 AM
my own observations suggest that it is even more unhealthy than first realized when viewed within the context of a very short and a fleeting life with rapidly fleeting opportunities.

i can give some personal examples tomorrow as i have dated a number of married women. the message from all of them was pretty clear: they were all caught in a bad situation and they were not happy. worse, they had stopped growing as human beings. they felt trapped and wanted to explore other options. something was missing in their relationships and they had to try something.

mediter
12-10-2009, 07:04 AM
what is the ultimate end in life old sport? by most accounts, its happiness that is the ultimate end to which everything else is merely means.

let me modify your part. happiness has to be pursued without trampling upon someone's toes and within ethical means.

That's the correct understanding.

divorce precisely occurs a lot more often because of your viewpoint. :)

no ,its highly unethical and cruel to break commitment and vows.Its not a small thing.

if you have severe problems, better end it and do what you want .but cheating at anytime is not on.

not easy to end it agreed.but it is the right thing to do than hurt and spite the other person.

habibko
12-10-2009, 07:05 AM
you are not much of a believer in the concept of marriage are you CD? :lol:

prima donna
12-10-2009, 07:06 AM
The success or failure of a marriage is predicated largely upon adaptability; that is, appearances tend to deteriorate with age, therefore the survivability of a given marriage can be measured by one's ability to adapt to superficial changes in one's partner. Unfortunately, the foundation of many marriages is based upon the implicit assumption that beauty ceases to wither. In truth, there would be fewer divorces if people simply chose to apply long-term reasoning to what is ultimately an eternal commitment.

Respect is one key component of a successful marriage, another is intimacy -- not the physical kind but the psychological kind. People don't change very much over the course of a lifetime, so provided that one gives priority to personality, as opposed to sex, the durability of a union should not be imperiled. Sex should be more than a physical inclination, rather it should be spiritual and mental.

Then again, not all are fit for marriage, so maybe the question should be more along the lines of: Nymphomania: compatible or incompatible with marriage ?

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 07:07 AM
murder and robbery are also being exercised very heavily around the world, should we say it is what it is and seek means to legalize and condone them as well?

what is wrong is wrong no matter how many people practice it.

murder and robbery are crimes.

infidelity is only a crime in certain parts of the world--like middle east and the far east for instance.

i am talking about the western world only. infidelity is not a crime here.

again, i am not asking people if it is right or wrong. the key question here is this: is it healthy or not?

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 07:12 AM
you are not much of a believer in the concept of marriage are you CD? :lol:

i never went after these married women habs. they came after me.

it has nothing to do with whether i believe in marriage or not? i live in a western world old sport.

now would i too explore my so called other subjective options if i found myself in a very unhealthy situation? the answer is not "yes" but "hell Yes". in a heartbeat.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 07:13 AM
The success or failure of a marriage is predicated largely upon adaptability; that is, appearances tend to deteriorate with age, therefore the survivability of a given marriage can be measured by one's ability to adapt to superficial changes in one's partner. Unfortunately, the foundation of many marriages is based upon the implicit assumption that beauty ceases to wither. In truth, there would be fewer divorces if people simply chose to apply long-term reasoning to what is ultimately an eternal commitment.

Respect is one key component of a successful marriage, another is intimacy -- not the physical kind but the psychological kind. People don't change very much over the course of a lifetime, so provided that one gives priority to personality, as opposed to sex, the durability of a union should not be imperiled. Sex should be more than a physical inclination, rather it should be spiritual and mental.

Then again, not all are fit for marriage, so maybe the question should be more along the lines of: Nymphomania: compatible or incompatible with marriage ?

excellent post.

habibko
12-10-2009, 07:17 AM
now would i too explore my so called other subjective options if i found myself in a very unhealthy situation? the answer is not "yes" but "hell Yes". in a heartbeat.

just make sure you make this fact clear to your future partner before you are committed with her, perhaps you can find a partner who shares the same view.

which brings me to the question, would you accept your wife cheating on you if she was unhappy in her life with you?

mediter
12-10-2009, 07:20 AM
People don't change very much over the course of a lifetime, so provided that one gives priority to personality, as opposed to sex,

personality is superficial as well :) e.g look at a serial killer like ted bundy!

let us consider this- compatibility between the core values,similarity in wavelength of the two parties.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 07:24 AM
just make sure you make this fact clear to your future partner before you are committed with her, perhaps you can find a partner who shares the same view.

which brings me to the question, would you accept your wife cheating on you if she was unhappy in her life with you?


i see here that you are still having trouble reading me old sport. it is just not healthy--physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually--for either party in a relationship if one seeks to take care of his/her unmet needs elsewhere.

the sooner i found out that she is interested in other opportunities the better. now we can both start to making arrangements to get out and be with others as we go exploring the wide world of growth, wonder, and other opportunities. i would certainly have no further desire to be with her.

and she is not just telling me but she is damn near showing me that she wants to be with somebody else.

prima donna
12-10-2009, 07:26 AM
the key question here is this: is it healthy or not?
Healthy in what sense ? Infidelity certainly isn't healthy from a financial perspective, as divorces can be rather costly. Another variable, is something which inflicts harm upon the other parties involved (i.e., children) healthy ? Sex is akin to a drug in that people require more and more of it to satisfy their insatiable hunger, is that psychologically healthy ? I mean, if a guy is cheating on his wife, he's most likely a repeat offender. I guess the answer to your question, in my opinion, is no.

prima donna
12-10-2009, 07:29 AM
personality is superficial as well :) e.g look at a serial killer like ted bundy!

let us consider this- compatibility between the core values,similarity in wavelength of the two parties.
:lol:

habibko
12-10-2009, 07:33 AM
i see here that you are still having trouble reading me old sport. it is just not healthy--physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually--for either party in a relationship if one seeks to take care of his/her unmet needs elsewhere.

the sooner i found out that she is interested in other opportunities the better. now we can both start to making arrangements to get out and be with others as we go exploring the wide world of growth, wonder, and other opportunities. i would certainly have no further desire to be with her.

and she is not just telling me but she is damn near showing me that she wants to be with somebody else.

so you would have no desire to be with her if you found out she was cheating on you, and that would inevitably break the bond of marriage anyway.

it's the same situation if a man cheated on his wife, and she found out about it, she will most certainly not desire to be with him anymore, except in very rare situations.

this alone proves that infidelity is unhealthy.

perhaps we can speak about the concept of "open marriages", is that healthy or not?

mediter
12-10-2009, 07:36 AM
again, i am not asking people if it is right or wrong. the key question here is this: is it healthy or not?

i fail to understand how it can be healthy if there are people cursing each other and there is going to be mayhem at home.
not to mention unfortunate children.

a sense of betrayal would cause intense hatred and bitterness.it would complicate things a lot.

saying "i am moving on" is a much better way.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 07:37 AM
Healthy in what sense ? Infidelity certainly isn't healthy from a financial perspective, as divorces can be rather costly. Another variable, is something which inflicts harm upon the other parties involved (i.e., children) healthy ? Sex is akin to a drug in that people require more and more of it to satisfy their insatiable hunger, is that psychologically healthy ? I mean, if a guy is cheating on his wife, he's most likely a repeat offender. I guess the answer to your question, in my opinion, is no.


all good questions and i value your input here. i will have more to say tomorrow and there are endless variations in this theme of infidelity.

just take this imaginary converstion beween sue and beth:

Sue: so why do you stay with your husband and if you are seeing that milk man on the side?

Beth: Sue, i already told you. my husband is not a bad guy. he makes good money and i have a nice roof over my head. he is just boring as hell and he wont talk to me when he gets home. he is usually too tired and often goes to sleep right after supper. but he does make good money so all the bills are paid.

so sue finds some comfort in seeing somebody that gives her the attention that she wants and so desperately needs. without it, she is likely to go nuts.

a simple variation but still the point is that people , on the average, are motivated by their next level of unmet needs. infidelity just happens to be one of those avenues by which they meet those needs if they are in a less than optimal relationship.

of course it doesnt have to sexual at all. i met a married woman that told me that she just needed a friend to talk to. i told her to hit the fucking road of course but still you get the idea. not all needs are sexual. some needs are for other forms of companionship.

JolánGagó
12-10-2009, 07:38 AM
monogamy is utterly unnatural, at least for men. it doesn't make "cheating" necessary though, there are other ways of addressing the issue.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 07:40 AM
so you would have no desire to be with her if you found out she was cheating on you, and that would inevitably break the bond of marriage anyway.

it's the same situation if a man cheated on his wife, and she found out about it, she will most certainly not desire to be with him anymore, except in very rare situations.

this alone proves that infidelity is unhealthy.

perhaps we can speak about the concept of "open marriages", is that healthy or not?


actually the studies and research shows that infidelity is very healthy in a western world.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 07:42 AM
i fail to understand how it can be healthy if there are people cursing each other and there is going to be mayhem at home.
not to mention unfortunate children.

a sense of betrayal would cause intense hatred and bitterness.it would complicate things a lot.

saying "i am moving on" is a much better way.


you folks carry on. i am getting sleepy for now.

see you all tomorrow. we need more input on this issue old sport.

:Zaz:
12-10-2009, 07:43 AM
Don't mean to intrude here, but its something that plays on my conscience for numerous reasons, so I kinda have an opinion.

I hate the idea of infidelity personally, I don't think I would have the strength to deal with the knowledge that my husband/boyfriend had cheated, but I do know of some that openly allow extra martial affairs, as a way to keep things fresh etc etc. With the ground rules being that it is purely physical and their is no emotional attachment to it. It is quite common in France for men to have a mistress, and usually the wives know about it, although its unspoken. Their was an article in an English newspaper about this English woman who was married to a Frenchie and was most put out by his extra martial activities, as it was so far removed from what she considered honest and decent, but was told by her mother-in-law to have an affair herself, as it was the key to a long successful marriage. Not saying this is the norm in France or Europe, but it is an example. The English woman couldn't hack it, and they divorced. Had they have had children within the marriage, could she have put up with it?? Or would it have made his indiscretions worse, because of the further extent of his 'insult' for want of a better word.

It is entirely personal though, and not really something to be answered one way or the other IMO. Especially when cultural, religious, intellectual and sometimes even economical matters play a part in opinion. It works for some, and not for others.

Thats my highly edited 2cents :)

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 07:45 AM
Don't mean to intrude here, but its something that plays on my conscience for numerous reasons, so I kinda have an opinion.

I hate the idea of infidelity personally, I don't think I would have the strength to deal with the knowledge that my husband/boyfriend had cheated, but I do know of some that openly allow extra martial affairs, as a way to keep things fresh etc etc. With the ground rules being that it is purely physical and their is no emotional attachment to it. It is quite common in France for men to have a mistress, and usually the wives know about it, although its unspoken. Their was an article in an English newspaper about this English woman who was married to a Frenchie and was most put out by his extra martial activities, as it was so far removed from what she considered honest and decent, but was told by her mother-in-law to have an affair herself, as it was the key to a long successful marriage. Not saying this is the norm in France or Europe, but it is an example. The English woman couldn't hack it, and they divorced. Had they have had children within the marriage, could she have put up with it?? Or would it have made his indiscretions worse, because of the further extent of his 'insult' for want of a better word.

It is entirely personal though, and not really something to be answered one way or the other IMO. Especially when cultural, religious, intellectual and sometimes even economical matters play a part in opinion. It works for some, and not for others.

Thats my highly edited 2cents :)

we are glad to have you here. post away.

we will talk about it some more tomorrow.

also Zaz stop by the "ye olde castle" tomorrow and say hello. this is at the chat section.

mediter
12-10-2009, 07:52 AM
It works for some, and not for others.



A relationship is based on shared terms.

it works when there are shared terms evolved by both parties.when one party acts exclusive to those terms, its likely to cause a conflict.

pretty obvious

:Zaz:
12-10-2009, 07:56 AM
ooooh an invitation, I have heard good things of your Castley Kingdom, will certainly come say hey sometime :) if I can get past the drawbridge :P

:Zaz:
12-10-2009, 07:58 AM
A relationship is based on shared terms.

it works when there are shared terms evolved by both parties.when one party acts exclusive to those terms, its likely to cause a conflict.

pretty obvious

I meant it works for some couples and not for others couples, not individuals.

mediter
12-10-2009, 09:10 AM
"both parties" in my post has the same meaning as "a couple"

scoobs
12-10-2009, 10:30 AM
The issue here is respect and trust. If you love and respect your partner, you do not stray outside the confines of the commitment you made to them, however tempted you may be to do so.

However, I believe some if not most adults in a mature relationship are able to separate the love aspect from the sex aspect and what matters here is trust. If both parties in a relationship agree to open that relationship out, to allow both to sleep with other people when the situation arises, and they agree a framework for how that happens, and that framework is respected, then there is no breakage of trust.

And infidelity is the breakage of trust, in a nutshell.

So to me, infidelity is wrong. Infidelity though is not the same thing as sleeping with somebody else, it's about doing so in a way that breaks the trust in your existing relationship and disrespects your partner. You don't do that. If you find over time you feel the need to explore other sexual avenues then you need to discuss it with your partner and agree how that might happen. If they won't agree to that then you have the choice to stay with them and forget that option, or to break up and go your own way - but at least at every stage you have been honest you how you feel and honest and respectful towards your partner.

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 11:54 AM
The issue here is respect and trust. If you love and respect your partner, you do not stray outside the confines of the commitment you made to them, however tempted you may be to do so.

However, I believe some if not most adults in a mature relationship are able to separate the love aspect from the sex aspect and what matters here is trust. If both parties in a relationship agree to open that relationship out, to allow both to sleep with other people when the situation arises, and they agree a framework for how that happens, and that framework is respected, then there is no breakage of trust.

And infidelity is the breakage of trust, in a nutshell.

So to me, infidelity is wrong. Infidelity though is not the same thing as sleeping with somebody else, it's about doing so in a way that breaks the trust in your existing relationship and disrespects your partner. You don't do that. If you find over time you feel the need to explore other sexual avenues then you need to discuss it with your partner and agree how that might happen. If they won't agree to that then you have the choice to stay with them and forget that option, or to break up and go your own way - but at least at every stage you have been honest you how you feel and honest and respectful towards your partner.

This open relationship notion is completely messed up.

Not surprised a gay guy finds it appealing, though.

scoobs
12-10-2009, 11:58 AM
This open relationship notion is completely messed up.

Not surprised a gay guy finds it appealing, though.
Why, because we already live lives of mortal sin, so what's another one? :lol:

You're welcome to your opinion.

As it happens my partner and I have been together for seven years, we don't have an open relationship, and I don't want one. But I'm not closed to the possibility of them, I know other couples who have them and it works just fine for them and they've been together for decades - but then that's gay relationships so I guess to you they're not really valid anyway.

Garson007
12-10-2009, 11:59 AM
Aloimeh, you are messed up. :lol:

Goldenoldie
12-10-2009, 12:04 PM
Personal experience relevant to this thread. I have been married for over 30 years, and I love my wife dearly. We never row, seldom even argue, and she is my best friend.

However the big drawback in our relationship is the complete absence of sex for several years now. Nothing I do or say will persuade her to even consider it, so I have given up trying.

Divorce would be unthinkable, but I am in a permanent state of stress, and having sex with somebody else would be extremely healthy for me. This would not be infidelity as Scoobs understands it, as it would take place with my wife's full knowledge and approval. However I think it would be in the eyes of the original poster.

It has never been put to the test, as I am old, fat and ugly, so I can't ******* find anyone.:sad:

scoobs
12-10-2009, 12:06 PM
Personal experience relevant to this thread. I have been married for over 30 years, and I love my wife dearly. We never row, seldom even argue, and she is my best friend.

However the big drawback in our relationship is the complete absence of sex for several years now. Nothing I do or say will persuade her to even consider it, so I have given up trying.

Divorce would be unthinkable, but I am in a permanent state of stress, and having sex with somebody else would be extremely healthy for me. This would not be infidelity as Scoobs understands it, as it would take place with my wife's full knowledge and approval. However I think it would be in the eyes of the original poster.

It has never been put to the test, as I am old, fat and ugly, so I can't ******* find anyone.:sad:
I wouldn't consider that as infidelity, no, if it happened with your wife's full approval and sanction.

Would you not consider taking a trip abroad where prostitution is legal and paying for it, if your wife was okay with the idea?

mediter
12-10-2009, 12:14 PM
This open relationship notion is completely messed up.



Then you don't have to follow it.

but what his post meant was as long it is a private agreement between 2 people with no breach of trust,then there is no havoc at home.A third person like you has no say in a shared private space of a couple and need not care.

The key point is pursuit of happiness with respect towards partner and within ethical means.

not pursuit of happiness ,trampling upon everything in sight, as the more selfish people would have it.;)

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 12:15 PM
Personal experience relevant to this thread. I have been married for over 30 years, and I love my wife dearly. We never row, seldom even argue, and she is my best friend.

However the big drawback in our relationship is the complete absence of sex for several years now. Nothing I do or say will persuade her to even consider it, so I have given up trying.

Divorce would be unthinkable, but I am in a permanent state of stress, and having sex with somebody else would be extremely healthy for me. This would not be infidelity as Scoobs understands it, as it would take place with my wife's full knowledge and approval. However I think it would be in the eyes of the original poster.

It has never been put to the test, as I am old, fat and ugly, so I can't ******* find anyone.:sad:

Why is she withholding? That's a major grievance in a marriage.

Goldenoldie
12-10-2009, 12:17 PM
I wouldn't consider that as infidelity, no, if it happened with your wife's full approval and sanction.

Would you not consider taking a trip abroad where prostitution is legal and paying for it, if your wife was okay with the idea?

Thanks, but I'm sure I wouldn't need to go abroad to find a prostitute, there are plenty in town. However prostitution is a complete no-no as far as my wife is concerned.

Yeah, I know it sounds like a double standard, but I can see her point of view. She probably thinks why would I spend £50 on a tart when I could use the money to take her to a meal and the theatre.

JolánGagó
12-10-2009, 12:21 PM
Thanks, but I'm sure I wouldn't need to go abroad to find a prostitute, there are plenty in town. However prostitution is a complete no-no as far as my wife is concerned.

Yeah, I know it sounds like a double standard, but I can see her point of view. She probably thinks why would I spend £50 on a tart when I could use the money to take her to a meal and the theatre.

So what does she suggest as a solution to your problem?

scoobs
12-10-2009, 12:24 PM
Thanks, but I'm sure I wouldn't need to go abroad to find a prostitute, there are plenty in town. However prostitution is a complete no-no as far as my wife is concerned.

Yeah, I know it sounds like a double standard, but I can see her point of view. She probably thinks why would I spend £50 on a tart when I could use the money to take her to a meal and the theatre.
Well my concern was more in terms of a) not doing anything illegal and b) going somewhere licensed so you know the lady in question has had all the appropriate medical exams, two things you can't be sure of if you pick up a slapper off the streets of the UK.

But if your wife is opposed, then that's that. It does leave you with an unfortunate conundrum though.

Garson007
12-10-2009, 12:25 PM
i can give some personal examples tomorrow as i have dated a number of married women. the message from all of them was pretty clear: they were all caught in a bad situation and they were not happy. worse, they had stopped growing as human beings. they felt trapped and wanted to explore other options. something was missing in their relationships and they had to try something.
:haha: CD is a cougar hunter. :yeah: Expected. :p

The success or failure of a marriage is predicated largely upon adaptability; that is, appearances tend to deteriorate with age, therefore the survivability of a given marriage can be measured by one's ability to adapt to superficial changes in one's partner. Unfortunately, the foundation of many marriages is based upon the implicit assumption that beauty ceases to wither. In truth, there would be fewer divorces if people simply chose to apply long-term reasoning to what is ultimately an eternal commitment.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Personally I don't think that people divorce because beauty is fleeting - but what do I know? It just doesn't make sense to me, I guess. :shrug:

If you are in some way targeting the "in-love" part of marriage then it never should have happened (the marriage). By the time you marry someone, you have to be sure that you're no longer in love, but I guess that's a hard one for many. I however would never jump in the deep water early on.

I've also found that everybody only refers to couples in this thread, where there are closed polygamous relationships with three or more people involved, all of whom are happy within the situation.

habibko
12-10-2009, 12:26 PM
Personal experience relevant to this thread. I have been married for over 30 years, and I love my wife dearly. We never row, seldom even argue, and she is my best friend.

However the big drawback in our relationship is the complete absence of sex for several years now. Nothing I do or say will persuade her to even consider it, so I have given up trying.

Divorce would be unthinkable, but I am in a permanent state of stress, and having sex with somebody else would be extremely healthy for me. This would not be infidelity as Scoobs understands it, as it would take place with my wife's full knowledge and approval. However I think it would be in the eyes of the original poster.

It has never been put to the test, as I am old, fat and ugly, so I can't ******* find anyone.:sad:

perhaps CD's point is tailored for a situation like yours, your wife isn't being fair to you at all.

Garson007
12-10-2009, 12:28 PM
[...]greatest abominations of all - homosexuality, pedophilia, bestiality, and incest.
So you're saying that all these are worse than murder? :spit:

scoobs
12-10-2009, 12:32 PM
:haha: CD is a cougar hunter. :yeah: Expected. :p


I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Personally I don't think that people divorce because beauty is fleeting - but what do I know? It just doesn't make sense to me, I guess. :shrug:

If you are in some way targeting the "in-love" part of marriage then it never should have happened (the marriage). By the time you marry someone, you have to be sure that you're no longer in love, but I guess that's a hard one for many. I however would never jump in the deep water early on.

I've also found that everybody only refers to couples in this thread, where there are closed polygamous relationships with three or more people involved, all of whom are happy within the situation.
I agree with a lot of this - I don't believe it's just about physical ageing that sees people come together then split up, or even mostly about physical ageing.

I think people do change over the course of a lifetime, more than they themselves perhaps realise, and I think that while at one point in their lives two people are on the same path going in the same direction, changes over time can mean that those paths diverge, and to stay together they either have to both make compromises, or one makes big sacrifices for the other, or they end up splitting up and walking their own path alone.

I just think that's a reality of relationships - some will last a long time because of a deep, lasting compatability that survives and adapts to the changes we all undergo through life, and others just can't survive that change.

On the subject of polygamy, I also know somebody who successfully practices a polygamous relationship with other people who also practice polygamy. While it involves a great deal of trust, communication, and organisation, it works for them and they find it emotionally very fulfilling because, let's face it, as a human being it's hard to get, and in a way strange to expect, to get all you need from one person - friend, spiritual partner, lover, companion - that address each of the different needs that make up one person.

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 12:33 PM
So you're saying that all these are worse than murder? :spit:

They are unnatural in a way that murder is not, and a signature mark of a society that is degenerate and ripe for judgment.

When homosexuality, bestiality, incest, and the other sexual sins I mentioned are rife throughout society, that is a society on which God has turned his back.

habibko
12-10-2009, 12:37 PM
They are unnatural in a way that murder is not, and a signature mark of a society that is degenerate and ripe for judgment.

When homosexuality, bestiality, incest, and the other sexual sins I mentioned are rife throughout society, that is a society on which God has turned his back.

those people don't really care about religion or how God wants them to be, being homosexual is incompatible with religion to begin with, so your views have little meaning for them.

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 12:39 PM
those people don't really care about religion or how God wants them to be, being homosexual is incompatible with religion to begin with, so your views have little meaning for them.

Yeah, I figured.

Habibko: Do most Muslims look upon the West as a degenerate society? Also, do they think Christianity approves of these sorts of things, i.e. pornography, prostitution, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, etc.?

Garson007
12-10-2009, 12:43 PM
I've always hated the natural argument. Either everything we do uniquely as humans is unnatural or all the things we do, do is natural because we are also part of nature, just like everything else. Is technology natural? We use natural resources, we use the intellect that nature has given us, hence natural intellect, so isn't the end product also natural?

I also like how you say that sexual sin is rife throughout today's society... do you know anything about history? ****, incest, paedophilia, etc have all been around for millennia - if anything we are curbing it now more than ever before.

scoobs
12-10-2009, 12:44 PM
those people don't really care about religion or how God wants them to be, being homosexual is incompatible with religion to begin with, so your views have little meaning for them.
that's not entirely true.

I know other practising homosexuals who call themselves Christian and believe in God, and go to Church and etc. I don't know anybody incestuous (to my knowledge) or indeed practicers of bestiality either, so I can't speak for them.

In terms of homosexuality though, there is a clear divide here in how some people interpret religion and how others.

Some, as Aloimeh, believe it's absolute. It's following the word of God as we are told it to be from the bible and learned people who have interpreted the bible. Period.

Others, like my friends, believe that following the word of God is about making human decisions and choices that lead to living a life of "good" - where you help others, you don't betray others, where you positively impact the world around you, where you know and understand yourself and show respect to everybody else. To them that is the spirit of Christianity and the point of believing in God in these times.

habibko
12-10-2009, 12:44 PM
Yeah, I figured.

Habibko: Do most Muslims look upon the West as a degenerate society? Also, do they think Christianity approves of these sorts of things, i.e. pornography, prostitution, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, etc.?

yes most Muslims think that way of Western society, and I have never met a Muslim who says homosexuality is ok or natural, I heard there are some activists in Iran and Pakistan who call for LGBT rights but they are a negligible minority.

ShotmaKer
12-10-2009, 12:45 PM
monogamy is utterly unnatural, at least for men. it doesn't make "cheating" necessary though, there are other ways of addressing the issue.

JG nailed it.

habibko
12-10-2009, 12:47 PM
that's not entirely true.

I know other practising homosexuals who call themselves Christian and believe in God, and go to Church and etc. I don't know anybody incestuous (to my knowledge) or indeed practicers of bestiality either, so I can't speak for them.

In terms of homosexuality though, there is a clear divide here in how some people interpret religion and how others.

Some, as Aloimeh, believe it's absolute. It's following the word of God as we are told it to be from the bible and learned people who have interpreted the bible. Period.

Others, like my friends, believe that following the word of God is about making human decisions and choices that lead to living a life of "good" - where you help others, you don't betray others, where you positively impact the world around you, where you know and understand yourself and show respect to everybody else. To them that is the spirit of Christianity and the point of believing in God in these times.

we had this discussion before in Clydey's philosophical paradise ;)

you can't believe in the bible and believe homosexuality is ok, that's distortion.

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 12:47 PM
I've always hated the natural argument. Either everything we do uniquely as humans is unnatural or all the things we do, do is natural because we are also part of nature, just like everything else. Is technology natural? We use natural resources, we use the intellect that nature has given us, hence natural intellect, so isn't the end product also natural?

I also like how you say that sexual sin is rife throughout today's society... do you know anything about history? ****, incest, paedophilia, etc have all been around for millennia - if anything we are curbing it now more than ever before.

Sexual sin has existed throughout the ages, no doubt. But it is proliferating in such an open manner in today's society that its increasing acceptance by this society is an indication of its moral degeneracy as a whole. Yes, the ancient Greeks and Romans had widespread homosexuality/pederasty; and they were morally degenerate societies.

When we speak of nature, we (or at least I) am not referring to animals. Humans are not supposed to imitate animals. I am speaking of the natural order of humans, the order God created. For two males or two females to engage in sex, or a human to have sex with an animal, is against God's created order for humans.

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 12:50 PM
Others, like my friends, believe that following the word of God is about making human decisions and choices that lead to living a life of "good" - where you help others, you don't betray others, where you positively impact the world around you, where you know and understand yourself and show respect to everybody else. To them that is the spirit of Christianity and the point of believing in God in these times.

This is utterly empty. We can keep Bible discussions to the appropriate thread ( :) ), but the point is that homosexuality/bestiality are incompatible with orthodox Judaism, orthodox Christianity, and orthodox Islam.

habibko
12-10-2009, 12:50 PM
Also, do they think Christianity approves of these sorts of things, i.e. pornography, prostitution, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, etc.?

no they believe the Western world have become detached from religion, anyway most Muslims don't know enough about Christianity except what the Quran and Islamic schools tell them about it, same with Christians about Islam.

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 12:51 PM
no they believe the Western world have become detached from religion, anyway most Muslims don't know enough about Christianity except what the Quran and Islamic schools tell them about it,

I'll post a related question on the Bible thread.

JolánGagó
12-10-2009, 12:52 PM
I am speaking of the natural order of humans, the order God created.

There is no such a thing.

For two males or two females to engage in sex, or a human to have sex with an animal, is against God's created order for humans.

see above.

scoobs
12-10-2009, 12:53 PM
we had this discussion before in Clydey's philosophical paradise ;)

you can't believe in the bible and believe homosexuality is ok, that's distortion.
You can believe that the bible, while ostensibly being the word of God, was written by flawed, sinning humans with their own views, their own agendas and their own motivations, and that what originally was written may not be what we understand it to be today.

You can also believe that religions have to reflect the times we live in and that they must adapt to changing circumstances and that the spirit of the bible - the overall message it is trying to bring - is far more important that the letter of the bible, which in many cases is ignored now anyway as not being strictly appliquable.

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 12:53 PM
There is no such a thing.



see above.

That's what you say.

JolánGagó
12-10-2009, 12:53 PM
That's what you say.

Yes, contrary to what you believe :shrug:

scoobs
12-10-2009, 12:54 PM
This is utterly empty. We can keep Bible discussions to the appropriate thread ( :) ), but the point is that homosexuality/bestiality are incompatible with orthodox Judaism, orthodox Christianity, and orthodox Islam.
They are incompatible with the strict interpretations of these religions as you express them - as is obviously the case, not all of your fellow adherents agree with you.

I do not understand why you lump homosexuality and bestiality together though.

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 12:55 PM
You can believe that the bible, while ostensibly being the word of God, was written by flawed, sinning humans with their own views, their own agendas and their own motivations, and that what originally was written may not be what we understand it to be today.

You can also believe that religions have to reflect the times we live in and that they must adapt to changing circumstances and that the spirit of the bible - the overall message it is trying to bring - is far more important that the letter of the bible, which in many cases is ignored now anyway as not being strictly appliquable.

What is the spirit of any religion? What is the spirit of Judaism? Of Christianity? Of Islam?

I don't understand what you mean by "spirit"? None of these religions talk about a theme, per se, but rather about truth - how people can be reconciled with God. Which is certainly not accomplished by being tolerant, "doing good," and sleeping with members of your own sex - in direct contradiction to what the texts of your faith say.

Garson007
12-10-2009, 12:58 PM
we had this discussion before in Clydey's philosophical paradise ;)

you can't believe in the bible and believe homosexuality is ok, that's distortion.
Just like I said in the thread above. Different people can have different interpretations of the bible, but it can still be the book of their belief, hence still make them Christian.

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 01:00 PM
Just like I said in the thread above. Different people can have different interpretations of the bible, but it can still be the book of their belief, hence still make them Christian.

Yawn. We can discuss this in the Bible thread.

Garson007
12-10-2009, 01:02 PM
When we speak of nature, we (or at least I) am not referring to animals. Humans are not supposed to imitate animals. I am speaking of the natural order of humans, the order God created. For two males or two females to engage in sex, or a human to have sex with an animal, is against God's created order for humans.
Then don't use the word natural? The way you're using it is incorrect.

scoobs
12-10-2009, 01:12 PM
What is the spirit of any religion? What is the spirit of Judaism? Of Christianity? Of Islam?

I don't understand what you mean by "spirit"? None of these religions talk about a theme, per se, but rather about truth - how people can be reconciled with God. Which is certainly not accomplished by being tolerant, "doing good," and sleeping with members of your own sex - in direct contradiction to what the texts of your faith say.

Look, you can believe, if you like, that religion requires you follow the text of the bible to the letter, in order to reconcile yourself with God. You can believe that there's no wiggle room, there's no requirement to see whether what was written 2000 years ago is still appliquable in this time. Fine. Good for you.

Others believe that the bible is a guide, not a textbook, that what matters are the themes of respect, love, self-improvement, fairness, behaving justly, are what religion is really all about and that reconciling yourself with God is about doing these things.

And I don't believe either of those things because I don't believe in God. And yes, I have questioned that sometimes. But my position is this - I will strive for the rest of my life to be the best person I can be within my human limitations - I will try to do good, to help people who need it, to be a good friend, a good partner, and generally, in my own extremely small way, to leave the world a slightly better place than I found it. And if at the end, if it turns out that I was wrong, and that there is a God, and I am to be judged and found wanting because I have had sex with other consenting males in my life, and I burn in hell for that, then so be it.

Because I also believe this - if the word of God *really* means that rather than doing those things, I'm supposed to try and purge myself of my sexuality, spend a life in misery and confusion at trying to deny what I *know* I am and never being able to allow myself to love the way I want to - if that is what *really* matters most of all to your God, and your God is still wreaking his eternal revenge on humankind for the original sin, then I really don't want any part of that view on things and so burning in hell is the best place for me. When the times comes, if there is a God, I will leave it up to him as to what's really the point of all this, because I hope and believe that if there is a God, then the values I have expressed will be more important than that one other thing which that book says is wrong. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I also know that I will have spent my life being true to myself and trying to do good, and I much prefer that alternative to spending my life condemning others for not living up to some arbitrary precepts dictated in some book.

habibko
12-10-2009, 01:13 PM
You can believe that the bible, while ostensibly being the word of God, was written by flawed, sinning humans with their own views, their own agendas and their own motivations, and that what originally was written may not be what we understand it to be today.

You can also believe that religions have to reflect the times we live in and that they must adapt to changing circumstances and that the spirit of the bible - the overall message it is trying to bring - is far more important that the letter of the bible, which in many cases is ignored now anyway as not being strictly appliquable.

I answered this in the Bible thread.

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 01:16 PM
Look, you can believe, if you like, that religion requires you follow the text of the bible to the letter, in order to reconcile yourself with God. You can believe that there's no wiggle room, there's no requirement to see whether what was written 2000 years ago is still appliquable in this time. Fine. Good for you.

Others believe that the bible is a guide, not a textbook, that what matters are the themes of respect, love, self-improvement, fairness, behaving justly, are what religion is really all about and that reconciling yourself with God is about doing these things.

And I don't believe either of those things because I don't believe in God. And yes, I have questioned that sometimes. But my position is this - I will strive for the rest of my life to be the best person I can be within my human limitations - I will try to do good, to help people who need it, to be a good friend, a good partner, and generally, in my own extremely small way, to leave the world a slightly better place than I found it. And if at the end, if it turns out that I was wrong, and that there is a God, and I am to be judged and found wanting because I have had sex with other consenting males in my life, and I burn in hell for that, then so be it.

Because I also believe this - if the word of God *really* means that rather than doing those things, I'm supposed to try and purge myself of my sexuality, spend a life in misery and confusion at trying to deny what I *know* I am and never being able to allow myself to love the way I want to - if that is what *really* matters most of all to your God, and your God is still wreaking his eternal revenge on humankind for the original sin, then I really don't want any part of that view on things and so burning in hell is the best place for me. When the times comes, if there is a God, I will leave it up to him as to what's really the point of all this, because I hope and believe that if there is a God, then the values I have expressed will be more important than that one other thing which that book says is wrong. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I also know that I will have spent my life being true to myself and trying to do good, and I much prefer that alternative to spending my life condemning others for not living up to some arbitrary precepts dictated in some book.

I'm answering this in the Bible thread.

prima donna
12-10-2009, 03:44 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Personally I don't think that people divorce because beauty is fleeting - but what do I know? It just doesn't make sense to me, I guess.
That is quite fine. I do not recall having threatened to guillotine those whose views differ from mine. Although one might note that mine was a response to the question of infidelity and, as one well knows, infidelity and divorce are invariably linked. Therefore, in the context of examining the origins of infidelity as well as its repercussions, I broadly referred to the tendency of people to underestimate the extent to which appearances change with time. It was not a treatment of divorce in and of itself, but rather an isolation of one of the underlying causes of wanderlust (i.e., adultery).

Married couples can attest to the immense difficulty of maintaining a passionate relationship in the long-run. It is no easy task, and failure to do so often leads to infidelity and, subsequently, divorce.

If you are in some way targeting the "in-love" part of marriage then it never should have happened (the marriage)
Such reasoning is based in abstract theory. Alas, marriage is something which human beings choose for a variety of reasons, some being less than ideal; that is, some are merely young and foolish while others have made foolish decisions which have necessitated that such foolishness be perpetuated in the form of marriage (e.g., an unwelcome pregnancy coupled with familial pressure). We live in a practical world, and the notion that people ought to adhere to a strict model of reasoning is analogous to believing entirely in the functionality of economic and scientific models.

Just as we know that economists and scientists are prone to errors, we too know, based upon empirical evidence, that human beings do not always behave rationally. Your error in judgment is assuming the contrary to be true.

I've also found that everybody only refers to couples in this thread, where there are closed polygamous relationships with three or more people involved, all of whom are happy within the situation.
Fortunately, there a few places where polygamy is embraced. Again, if one chooses to base one's assumptions on practical externalities, then it is easy to understand why for most couples the thought of polygamy is enough to induce vomiting. One cannot misrepresent an unabashed deviation from societal norms as a legitimate alternative or panacea to marital adversity.

Vida
12-10-2009, 04:03 PM
is it healthy? depends on so many things.

frankly, having an occasional 'off', if handled the right way, is good.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 04:04 PM
some good stuff here. now we need some sort of a social cost/benefit analysis of infidelity. as i suggested previously, the research and the studies do point in the direction of the fact that it is healthy for both parties involved to exit the existing situation as soon as possible if no kids are involved. infidelity is and can be the first step in bringing that about.

accordingly there may be some intuitive appeal to thinking of infidelity as the critical catalyst. in my own estimation its a good first step. with 1/2 to 2/3 of the marriages ending in divorces in some parts of the western world, you know people are exercising this option. in a world of fleeting opportunities and a rapidly fleeting life, why the hell would anyone choose misery and unhappiness.

Garson007
12-10-2009, 04:06 PM
That is quite fine. I do not recall having threatened to guillotine those whose views differ from mine. Although one might note that mine was a response to the question of infidelity and, as one well knows, infidelity and divorce are invariably linked. Therefore, in the context of examining the origins of infidelity as well as its repercussions, I broadly referred to the tendency of people to underestimate the extent to which appearances change with time. It was not a treatment of divorce in and of itself, but rather an isolation of one of the underlying causes of wanderlust (i.e., adultery).

Married couples can attest to the immense difficulty of maintaining a passionate relationship in the long-run. It is no easy task, and failure to do so often leads to infidelity and, subsequently, divorce.
You are of course correct.

Such reasoning is based in abstract theory. Alas, marriage is something which human beings choose for a variety of reasons, some being less than ideal; that is, some are merely young and foolish while others have made foolish decisions which have necessitated that such foolishness be perpetuated in the form of marriage (e.g., an unwelcome pregnancy coupled with familial pressure). We live in a practical world, and the notion that people ought to adhere to a strict model of reasoning is analogous to believing entirely in the functionality of economic and scientific models.

Just as we know that economists and scientists are prone to errors, we too know, based upon empirical evidence, that human beings do not always behave rationally. Your error in judgment is assuming the contrary to be true.
I agree completely. It is however imperative that one tries to lead life as rationally as possible to avoid errors in judgment.

Fortunately, there a few places where polygamy is embraced. Again, if one chooses to base one's assumptions on practical externalities, then it is easy to understand why for most couples the thought of polygamy is enough to induce vomiting. One cannot misrepresent an unabashed deviation from societal norms as a legitimate alternative or panacea to marital adversity.
I was never pointing out that it is a real alternative; in that way it's not really much relevant to the topic at hand. I however felt it was necessary to communicate that monogamous relationships are not the only ones to have functioned in the past and if chosen there can possibly exist a multiple entity relationship, with oneself included, without it being a so-called open relationship.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 04:07 PM
ooooh an invitation, I have heard good things of your Castley Kingdom, will certainly come say hey sometime :) if I can get past the drawbridge :P


good deal. its sort of quiet at the castle these days because of the slow period in the sport of tennis but do stop by and check it out anyway. check the opening/original post of that castle thread to get an idea of the castle family. thanks.

prima donna
12-10-2009, 04:13 PM
some good stuff here. now we need some sort of a social cost/benefit analysis of infidelity. as i suggested previously, the research and the studies do point in the direction of the fact that it is healthy for both parties involved to exit the existing situation as soon as possible if no kids are involved. infidelity is and can be the first step in bringing that about.

accordingly there may be some intuitive appeal to thinking of infidelity as the critical catalyst. in my own estimation its a good first step. with 1/2 to 2/3 of the marriages ending in divorces in some parts of the western world, you know people are exercising this option. in a world of fleeting opportunities and a rapidly fleeting life, why the hell would anyone choose misery and unhapiness.
The accceptance of divorce as anything other than a last resort is a harbinger of a society headed for trouble, bordering on nihilism. Moreover, much of one's life is spent dwelling in misery and sorrow, even so for the richest among us. A man must lead a sober existence, and what better way to facilitate such an existence than by sticking it out with one's wife ?

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 04:20 PM
The accceptance of divorce as anything other than a last resort is a harbinger of a society headed for trouble, bordering on nihilism. Moreover, much of one's life is spent dwelling in misery and sorrow, even so for the richest among us. A man must lead a sober existence, and what better way to facilitate such an existence than by sticking it out with one's wife ?

"sticking it out". that doesnt even sound good on paper. some or many do obviously but it leads to misery and more unhappiness. its not real life in the western world. people have the options and the opportunities. and with the advent of enhanced information technologies, those options and opportunites just became even more attainable.

Vida
12-10-2009, 04:20 PM
what is called an 'open relationship' is the answer.

though it rarely works if at all.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 04:22 PM
what is called an 'open relationship' is the answer.

though it rarely works if at all.

what will work best is a marriage with a renewable contract.

Vida
12-10-2009, 04:25 PM
what will work best is a marriage with a renewable contract.

or no contract at all? there can hardly be a functional marriage based on suspicion - a fundamental element of a contract.

Aloimeh
12-10-2009, 04:26 PM
OK, Clay Death, what is the point of marriage, according to you?

JolánGagó
12-10-2009, 04:28 PM
There is no point in marriage at all, not one I can see at least.

Garson007
12-10-2009, 04:34 PM
Financial and sociological gains.

Sophocles
12-10-2009, 04:35 PM
is it healthy? depends on so many things.

frankly, having an occasional 'off', if handled the right way, is good.

Sanest posting in the thread.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 04:50 PM
OK, Clay Death, what is the point of marriage, according to you?


well i certainly dont subscribe to the religious explanation of marriage. in a real world, it boils down to the functionality of it. its invariably more economical and feasable for a party of 2 to make it through life. men and women simply join forces. its a way of life that works best. no other arrangement is as profitable as a marriage of a man and a woman. they both need each other.

accordingly if any part of this so called legal companionship is missing or is suboptimal then an adjustment is needed.

Vida
12-10-2009, 04:56 PM
well i certainly dont subscribe to the religious explanation of marriage. in a real world, it boils down to the functionality of it. its invariably more economical and feasable for a party of 2 to make it through life. men and women simply join forces. its a way of life that works best. no other arrangement is as profitable as a marriage of a man and a woman. they both need each other.

accordingly if any part of this so called legal companionship is missing or is suboptimal then an adjustment is needed.

exactly. I would only add a reflection on the institute of marriage, which is, here and there, an archaic leftover from the age when social form had a material meaning in social relations.

so the accent is on real relationship between man and a woman, or people of the same sex, rather on the institution of marriage as in procedure.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 05:05 PM
exactly. I would only add a reflection on the institute of marriage, which is, here and there, an archaic leftover from the age when social form had a material meaning in social relations.

so the accent is on real relationship between man and a woman, or people of the same sex, rather on the institution of marriage as in procedure.


affirmative, old sport.

Start da Game
12-10-2009, 05:33 PM
its not that life is so short. its just that we are all dead for so bloody long.

why must you or anyone suffer if trapped in an unhealthy and stale and relationship that keeps you from exploring, discovering, and growing from all that the world has to offer.

its just not that simple to walk away or to end relationships. people, on the average, do not know where to even begin to try to end a hopeless situation they might find themselves in.

others are just versatile and have more than enough vitality to indulge in their subjective propensities. it keeps them going. its just human nature. some do prefer to live on the edge anyway. that is what makes them who they are and yet there must be something still missing from their lives so they choose to exercise their options.

i dont want to throw any numbers around but with 1/2 to 2/3 of the marriages ending in divorces in some parts of the western world, you can bet your last dollar that a lot of folks are trapped in unhealthy situations at one time or another.

infidelity may just be the first step to lessen the hardships of an unhealthy relationship. it can also be a first step to freedom which may open the doors to all that the world has to offer. why not go after what is rightfully yours before time runs out. you know that all is fleeting and all must end.

the floor is yours. discuss the pros and cons of infidelity? is it healthy within the context of such a short life and with opportunities accordingly fleeting?

basically it all boils down to how much respect an individual holds for marriage and how he/she sees it.......universally, marriage is seen as a legal bond which drives the couple in the right direction and defines a systematic living.......nothing in this world is free of disadvantages.......there are certain restrictions involved with the marriage and they are only meant for the good of the couple.......if you are to live life as you like without caring for anything, why marry at the first place?

but if one is caught in a delicate situation like you explained, it is just unfortunate because you cannot control it.......ether you are bold enough to move out or just stick with your partner.......it's not easy here in our part of the world, but it's definitely easy in the west.......

infidelity is definitely not healthy........if you are trapped or stuck up or caught in a bad situation or whatever, break up and do whatever.......cheating on the partner is not good for both actually.......

out_here_grindin
12-10-2009, 05:38 PM
I was reading a book and there was a society where there was no marraige rather people took partners for however long they wanted then when they were tired of it they quit it. It avioded many problems.

mediter
12-10-2009, 05:45 PM
infidelity is and can be the first step in bringing that about.


This is a path of confrontation,betrayal and lot of hatred.

you think its so easy to solve a problem once you have cheated? are things so easy in the real world? what are you thinking? :eek:

people foolish enuf to try this in the real world .good luck:)

scoobs
12-10-2009, 05:50 PM
This is a path of confrontation,betrayal and lot of hatred.

you think its so easy to solve a problem once you have cheated? are things so easy in the real world? what are you thinking? :eek:

people foolish enuf to try this in the real world .good luck:)
I agree - there are other, difficult, but ultimately less cowardly and less destructive ways out of these stale and unfulfilling situations.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 06:11 PM
This is a path of confrontation,betrayal and lot of hatred.

you think its so easy to solve a problem once you have cheated? are things so easy in the real world? what are you thinking? :eek:

people foolish enuf to try this in the real world .good luck:)


if stretched far enough, every human action can be considered and viewed as selfish. there is nothing wrong with wanting to get the most out of life if trapped in dead-end situations. particularly in light of fleeting opportunites and rapidly fleeting life.

people have always been motivated by their next level of unmet needs. western culture and the realities on the ground just make it easier to bring it about.

R.Federer
12-10-2009, 06:13 PM
that's why people should have the option of divorce, I mean religiously, and also marrying more than one, it's only compatible with men nature, well most of men anyway.

guess Sharia law isn't that bad afterall!!

I don't think that's why Sharia law came up with the idea of multiple wives for men, right? It came about because of the shortage of men due to war/death.

R.Federer
12-10-2009, 06:14 PM
I was reading a book and there was a society where there was no marraige rather people took partners for however long they wanted then when they were tired of it they quit it. It avioded many problems.

The problem is not when both partners mutually want to break off. The typical problem is when one is ready to run and the other wants to continue. Then what?

Garson007
12-10-2009, 06:30 PM
if stretched far enough, every human action can be considered and viewed as selfish.
:yeah:

scoobs
12-10-2009, 06:43 PM
if stretched far enough, every human action can be considered and viewed as selfish. there is nothing wrong with wanting to get the most out of life if trapped in dead-end situations. particularly in light of fleeting opportunites and rapidly fleeting life.

people have always been motivated by their next level of unmet needs. western culture and the realities on the ground just make it easier to bring it about.
true, but that doesn't mean you should treat your partner with contempt and disrespect by pursuing your own selfish needs irrespective of how it affects them.

usually when that behaviour happens to you, it causes you a lot of pain and distress, that can be avoided by just being more honest and upfront about things.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 06:54 PM
true, but that doesn't mean you should treat your partner with contempt and disrespect by pursuing your own selfish needs irrespective of how it affects them.

usually when that behaviour happens to you, it causes you a lot of pain and distress, that can be avoided by just being more honest and upfront about things.

lack of optimal communication is the biggest problem. its just not that easy for them to say what they have to say.

opportunities and options make it a little easier to go take care of unmet needs.

Bascule
12-10-2009, 07:09 PM
:lol:

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 08:15 PM
:lol:

what up bascule?

what are you smiling about? long time no see.

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 08:40 PM
basically it all boils down to how much respect an individual holds for marriage and how he/she sees it.......universally, marriage is seen as a legal bond which drives the couple in the right direction and defines a systematic living.......nothing in this world is free of disadvantages.......there are certain restrictions involved with the marriage and they are only meant for the good of the couple.......if you are to live life as you like without caring for anything, why marry at the first place?

but if one is caught in a delicate situation like you explained, it is just unfortunate because you cannot control it.......ether you are bold enough to move out or just stick with your partner.......it's not easy here in our part of the world, but it's definitely easy in the west.......

infidelity is definitely not healthy........if you are trapped or stuck up or caught in a bad situation or whatever, break up and do whatever.......cheating on the partner is not good for both actually.......


often the effects of infidelity can also be positive. infidelity in most cases forces individuals to take stock of their stale relationship and it forces then to take a good hard look at themselves.

for instance, it can help them to recognize that they need professional help and if they seek the same it can help them to work through the problems and build an even stronger bond and save the marriage.

only thing constant in life is change.

Arkulari
12-10-2009, 09:16 PM
I don't get why many people get married if they wanna play the field, what's the point of making a commitment if you're gonna broke it time and time and time again

if you make a mistake once, that can be fixed since we're all human and can make mistakes, but if you keep doing it over and over and over again then it is pointless to be married or to have a committed relationship

wanna play the field? awesome, then don't get married, or get a divorce if you are already, heck, you can even have an open marriage if you want, but what is annoying is the lack of respect and the lies

Clay Death
12-10-2009, 09:29 PM
I don't get why many people get married if they wanna play the field, what's the point of making a commitment if you're gonna broke it time and time and time again

if you make a mistake once, that can be fixed since we're all human and can make mistakes, but if you keep doing it over and over and over again then it is pointless to be married or to have a committed relationship

wanna play the field? awesome, then don't get married, or get a divorce if you are already, heck, you can even have an open marriage if you want, but what is annoying is the lack of respect and the lies

Sometimes some people may cheat just for the excitement or the adrenaline rush that comes along with doing something that is prohibited or not allowed. It can be because some people want to avoid boredom in life and the predictability of everything. It can be because they enjoy the feeling of living on the edge.

Some people are simply in need of different sexual experiences and so end up having affairs. Some others may do it because they have sexual addiction. Some other people feel they have grown out of the relationship or fallen out of love with their partners/spouses. So they simply go out and seek other relationships just to get rid of the present relationship.

there are any number of reasons for infidelity. i just refuse to believe that it is not healthy if significantly more than 1/2 the married people in some parts of the western world say--as the research indicates-- that they have engaged in these type of activites.

Other causes may be availability of the opportunity such as proximity at the workplace. So many people hear the excuse from the cheating partner that "it just happened."

if nothing else, it at least forces people to take stock of their relationships and also to take a long hard look at themselves.

Bascule
12-11-2009, 01:10 AM
I don't get why many people get married if they wanna play the field, what's the point of making a commitment if you're gonna broke it time and time and time again

if you make a mistake once, that can be fixed since we're all human and can make mistakes, but if you keep doing it over and over and over again then it is pointless to be married or to have a committed relationship

wanna play the field? awesome, then don't get married, or get a divorce if you are already, heck, you can even have an open marriage if you want, but what is annoying is the lack of respect and the lies

Why are you spoiling this male piece of art with your wisdom?:(

Couldn't you just read and laugh like me?:rolleyes:

Clay Death
12-11-2009, 02:10 AM
:haha::haha:Why are you spoiling this male piece of art with your wisdom?:(

Couldn't you just read and laugh like me?:rolleyes:




:drink::drink::drink:

habibko
12-11-2009, 02:22 AM
was it healthy in Woods' case?

Clay Death
12-11-2009, 03:54 AM
was it healthy in Woods' case?


it had to be healthy for both in many ways. the kids were not grown enough to be affected much even though kids do need both parents there to grow properly and to grow with proper identity.

his wife needed to know what was going on. now she can take her money and the child support and go find somebody she really does need to be with.

tiger had all these outside adventures and he had been doing it for several years. now he too needs to find somebody he can be really happy with.

this forces both to take a deeper look at their relationship and also forces them to take a good hard look at themselves.

for their optimal mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual growth, they both really do need to get out of that relationship.

she could never trust him again and she should not. and he, for his part, could never undo what he has done. if anything, with his $1 billion in wealth, the world of women will continue to throw itself at him. he will simply go back to doing what he was doing before.

so yes what happened is for the best for both of them.

JolánGagó
12-11-2009, 07:17 AM
Staying in a doomed, disfunctional marriage is the unhealthiest thing I can think of.

mediter
12-11-2009, 09:45 AM
if stretched far enough, every human action can be considered and viewed as selfish. [\QUOTE]

Shallow minded stuff and irrelevant.

The point i raised was about "selfish actions that has someone else in a rage".It could be because you broke their trust or robbed them of something they value highly.

This is the one relevant to the discussion . let me leave out the "selfish actions" that breaks a law or alienates friends/relatives.(other actions are of no concern )

There are TWO parties to the situation.

you are speaking as if there is one.why can't you think of what the other person is going to do? their actions are not under your control and assumptions, remember?

when the betrayed party retaliates with rage, what is supposed to happen? you are conveniently sidestepping this crucial stage. ;)

Its not like the couple seperates in a day and everything is fine the next day. is it?

Even murders have happened/do happen/will happen on this issue. In the western world as well.

your views are preposterous for this reason.you are not taking these things with the seriousness it deserves.

do not assume others will react like you to a news of betrayal.

Its one thing posting stuff on cyber space and its not half as funny when you face a person/spouse in rage in real life.

[quote]
there is nothing wrong with wanting to get the most out of life if trapped in dead-end situations.

i agreed with you that people can get out if they want.

but its your suggestion that one can use "infidelity" to inform their decision, that i find downright absurd and nothing close to being remotely sensible or responsible.

it fails on the folowing

1. Instead of trying a constructive way of disengagement, you are
suggesting something foolish that will lead to
hatred ,bitterness and lot of complications.
what's wrong in saying clearly " i want to move on" ?

2. you are acting inimical to society by violating the rule of
"pursuing happiness without tramplin g upon someone's toes and
within ethical means". if you don't udnerstand this, your
understanding of society and western society in particular is
flawed.

you don't have a right to hurt others with malignant actions
for "selfish interests".That's anti social behaviour.


3. problems will come in life. how you handle them counts. it
COUNTS a LOT. Infidelity is a poor way to handle a severe
problem.

4. In the real world, a grown up adult is expected to communicate
especially at crucial stages. or face the
consequences.That's how it WORKS.


frankly an argument that you can act blatantly , betraying the trust of a trusted party and that too for the purpose of informing them is outrageous and laughable.

There must be better ways to defuse even an unfortunate situation.
better quality of views expected.

R.Federer
12-11-2009, 10:20 AM
If you want to get out of a relation or marriage, get out! It is the sense of entitlement in having a relationship behind someone else's back that is pathetic.

Clay Death
12-11-2009, 10:48 PM
Staying in a doomed, disfunctional marriage is the unhealthiest thing I can think of.

ultra affirmative. truer words have not been spoken in the last 50,000 years of documented human history.

Clay Death
12-14-2009, 12:03 AM
If you want to get out of a relation or marriage, get out! It is the sense of entitlement in having a relationship behind someone else's back that is pathetic.


it can be quite productive if the couple is relatively young and no children are involved.

and sometimes even if the children are involved.

as some have pointed out, there is no greater hell than being in a relationship that is dead, stale, devoid of any emotional and physical intimacy and also lacks proper communication.

infidelity is just the first step many choose to take. it forces them to take a good look at themselves.

superslam77
12-17-2009, 12:23 AM
Hello old sport.

Hoping you're not trying to justify Woods actions so let me think...
Infidelity...

Healthy:
-Confidence gained from seducing other people.
-Sex is healthy
-The thrill from the "adventure"

Not Healthy:
-Stress or guilt if you think you're gonna get busted.
-Motel/Hotel bills *yikes*
-Prostitute bills.
-Having something to hide.
-It's basically procrastination and wasting useful time.
-Loss of reputation.

REALLY Unhealthy:
-STD's are horrible to your health with no cure and some can kill you.
-Ignorant bitches getting pregnant uh oh.
-Paying for extra marriage children and the stress associated with.
-Getting beat up/killed by the partner or the partner of the other person.
-The scandal of your wife throwing your stuff out of the window.


I say there are more cons than pro's old sport!!!

Vida
12-17-2009, 01:30 PM
how come is infidelity procrastination?

superslam77
12-17-2009, 01:36 PM
how come is infidelity procrastination?

Cuz people do it when they're supposed to be working or making house chores :shrug:

Vida
12-17-2009, 01:45 PM
Cuz people do it when they're supposed to be working or making house chores :shrug:

aha ok. I though procrastination was doing nothing when youre supposed working or making house chores.

superslam77
12-17-2009, 01:50 PM
aha ok. I though procrastination was doing nothing when youre supposed working or making house chores.

I thought it included something not productive or not so promising such as internet surfing, TV, video games,talking on the phone, sex/masturbation, not doing anything, postponing work or something we call MTFing :o.

Vida
12-17-2009, 02:08 PM
I thought it included something not productive or not so promising such as internet surfing, TV, video games,talking on the phone, sex/masturbation, not doing anything, postponing work or something we call MTFing :o.

dunno, having an affair means doing whole lot of logistics. I mean, if your Tiger Woods, sure you can text your nearest mistress, or even wire her airplane ticket to turn herself in a 'girl next door', with whom sex does might indeed resemble MTFing, at least effort wise,... but for regular people, you would usually have to put in a lot of leg work not to get busted. surely you have to think it through at least, not to be caught.

Juli_V
12-17-2009, 02:09 PM
Infidelity is healthy only to the one who's commiting it. :shrug:

superslam77
12-17-2009, 02:31 PM
Sex is healthy, infidelity is not always about sex :confused:

Fact remains cheating has many down sides like i told before.