Is Djokovic better than Federer on Clay? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Is Djokovic better than Federer on Clay?

Start da Game
11-23-2009, 04:12 AM
well, the stats might suggest the opposite but if we take a deeper look, here's the story so far.......

before federer won the FO this year, federer fans used to come up every time with the 3 runner plates that he held in 2006, 2007 and 2008 in defense of his clay superiority.......but what really went unnoticed was the fact that djokovic too was stopped only by nadal in all those years.......once in the quarters and twice in the semis.......i think that's quite impressive from djokovic considering his young age and he started peaking just last year.......it was plain bad luck to end up on nadal's half of the draw all the time.......

during his early 20s, federer was no where as consistent as djokovic on clay.......not until he reached 23, 24 that federer slowly started playing well on it and to his advantage he was facing a young and an inexperienced nadal and still kept losing to him easily most of the times.......djokovic had to face already well established nadal.......

before this year's french open, djokovic and rafa had two epic battles in montecarlo and madrid, both times just the better player won.......one more defeat for djokovic in between in rome.......as a result, djokovic ran out of energy(physical and emotional) by the time of french open while rafa was already carrying an injury........to federer's credit, he took the advantage and bagged the french title.......but truth remains that he did not beat any big clay courter and either of his two major rivals(and only other real contenders for the slam) on his way to the victory........it was rafa-djokovic show all along the clay season until the french open and it wasn't like federer outplayed them to win the french.......

stats wise, federer has numbers on his side but speaking from heart, i feel djokovic is better than federer on clay.......even in their only battle on clay this year in rome, it was djokovic who emerged victorious.......no one apart from rafa could challenge him on clay this year(even last year) and ironically to his own bad, he played too good right through out the clay season and ran out of gas at a crucial juncture.......

djokovic definitely promises a lot more on clay and honestly, he is posing rafa more problems on clay than federer did.......discuss.......

FlavorNuts
11-23-2009, 04:24 AM
Federer is slightly better, but Djokovic is a better player on any surface than Federer was at his age.

ForehandWinner
11-23-2009, 04:28 AM
Peaking age differs from player to player. Yes Novak does not have a style that is physically demanding but he tend to get inconsistent at times. Federer unquestionably the 2nd best on Clay at this point.

Arkulari
11-23-2009, 05:12 AM
let's see: a guy who has 5 MS shields on clay, 6 MS runner ups, 3 RG RUP and 1 RG victory vs a guy who has 1 MS and two MS runner-ups

the guy who won a MS shield this year in clay against the clay master vs a guy who has never been able to defeat said master in the surface

Nole is like 8-0 to Rafa on clay and has never managed to take a title out of him, no matter how injured or tired Rafa was, while Roger has gotten two masters series on clay (one of which was this year in Spain) out of Rafa

Roger doesn't lose to the likes of Kohli in RG, even after super painful losses in the surface (Rome 2006 rings a bell? he had two match points and still lose to Rafa, yet he managed to reach the final of RG that year for the first time)

I can kinda give the edge to Nole in hard due to his recent form (though his HC slam performance wasn't the best) but on clay and grass Roger is still much better than him

On HC, I think Nole is definitely gonna be one of Rafa's nightmare match-ups, but in clay? as bad as the fedal match-up is for Roger, he still has more chance on clay than Nole 95% of the time ;)

and for Federer not facing any big clay-courter, well, is it his fault that Nole lost to Kohli and Rafa to Toad? a player can only beat what is in front of him :shrug:

swisht4u
11-23-2009, 05:13 AM
Fed is better but Djokovic is much improved.
This coming year should be very interesting.
We'll see what DelPo brings to the table.

n8
11-23-2009, 05:28 AM
I'm glad someone else appreciates how accomplished Djokovic is on clay. He's only really had one bad loss on the surface in the last two years (Roland Garros this year). Away from the pressure of Grand Slams, I believe that Djokovic is the second best player on clay.

fsoica
11-23-2009, 05:41 AM
even in their only battle on clay this year in rome, it was djokovic who emerged victorious

2006 MC R64 Fed vs Djo 6-3,2-6,6-3
2008 MC SF Fed vs Djo 6-3,3-2 RET

As for this year's Rome, should Fed showed up at at least 70%, Nole had been toast...

Anyway, Djokovic will win one RG in his career..He has the weapons to do it, even against Nadal 2.0, who is the present and future (and lesser) version of Nadal '05-'08.

RafitoGoat
11-23-2009, 05:47 AM
Federer is better mentally, so even if Djokovic has the right game to dominate clay, I guess that doesn't matter if he mentally cannot handle a slam :I

Mimi
11-23-2009, 06:24 AM
Oh no, my dear Start de game, Roger is still much better than Nole on clay, reached RG finals for 4 consecutive times ;)

Kiman
11-23-2009, 07:21 AM
2006 MC R64 Fed vs Djo 6-3,2-6,6-3
2008 MC SF Fed vs Djo 6-3,3-2 RET

As for this year's Rome, should Fed showed up at at least 70%, Nole had been toast...

Anyway, Djokovic will win one RG in his career..He has the weapons to do it, even against Nadal 2.0, who is the present and future (and lesser) version of Nadal '05-'08.
Of course, this years' Rome is not legitimate because Federer was crap, but 2006 one is perfectly legitimate when Novak was still 18.

Sure, Novak is not better right now, obvious from results. But he has potential to be.

Garson007
11-23-2009, 07:41 AM
Talent and play style it would have to go to Djokovic. Results speak differently though. :shrug: At least Djokovic does have a few more years than Federer left.

ShotmaKer
11-23-2009, 09:05 AM
Is Djokovic better than Federer on Clay ? No. Could he be ? Possibly.

Vida
11-23-2009, 09:18 AM
last year djoker was still playing hardcourt tennis on clay. he was hugging the baseline, taking the ball rather early, and going for overpowering opponents rater than trying to construct an opening or force an error with patience and technique. this year I saw something different, and got the feeling it was partly a result of his racket change. this new stick appears to provide additional control on spin, and he is playing with more spin on both hardcourts and clay. now this might not be a good thing, but depending how a player employs it it can pay off. so to me it looks like starting from this season, djoker has a better clay game than fed.

Vida
11-23-2009, 09:21 AM
their match this year isnt a good example of their clay matchup cause they were both gone missing in action, but how they play against nadal, djoker simply looks to have a better chance, barring stamina (which fed was always better at). their last years MC match was a clinic administered by fed, where djoker dully pussied out.

Commander Data
11-23-2009, 09:28 AM
let's see: a guy who has 5 MS shields on clay, 6 MS runner ups, 3 RG RUP and 1 RG victory vs a guy who has 1 MS and two MS runner-ups

the guy who won a MS shield this year in clay against the clay master vs a guy who has never been able to defeat said master in the surface

Nole is like 8-0 to Rafa on clay and has never managed to take a title out of him, no matter how injured or tired Rafa was, while Roger has gotten two masters series on clay (one of which was this year in Spain) out of Rafa

Roger doesn't lose to the likes of Kohli in RG, even after super painful losses in the surface (Rome 2006 rings a bell? he had two match points and still lose to Rafa, yet he managed to reach the final of RG that year for the first time)

I can kinda give the edge to Nole in hard due to his recent form (though his HC slam performance wasn't the best) but on clay and grass Roger is still much better than him

On HC, I think Nole is definitely gonna be one of Rafa's nightmare match-ups, but in clay? as bad as the fedal match-up is for Roger, he still has more chance on clay than Nole 95% of the time ;)

and for Federer not facing any big clay-courter, well, is it his fault that Nole lost to Kohli and Rafa to Toad? a player can only beat what is in front of him :shrug:

this

Har-Tru
11-23-2009, 09:38 AM
Both at their best, yes. But...

paseo
11-23-2009, 10:21 AM
their match this year isnt a good example of their clay matchup cause they were both gone missing in action, but how they play against nadal, djoker simply looks to have a better chance, barring stamina (which fed was always better at). their last years MC match was a clinic administered by fed, where djoker dully pussied out.

Of course Djokovic looks better, his game matches up great against Nadal. You can't judge a player game based against 1 opponent, you judge it by averaging his game against all of his opponent. If I have to judge Fed's game only by looking at his matches against Nadal on clay, then Fed is crap. But, he's not.

So, I think Fed is still better. But, I'm not saying that Djokovic can't be better in the future, he's stil 22.

Sophocles
11-23-2009, 10:26 AM
The answer you are searching for is NO.

Vida
11-23-2009, 10:35 AM
Of course Djokovic looks better, his game matches up great against Nadal. You can't judge a player game based against 1 opponent, you judge it by averaging his game against all of his opponent. If I have to judge Fed's game only by looking at his matches against Nadal on clay, then Fed is crap. But, he's not.

So, I think Fed is still better. But, I'm not saying that Djokovic can't be better in the future, he's stil 22.

rafa, djoko and fed are far and away above other players on clay, so for djoko and fed rafa is sort of a benchmark.

just look when and who against they played when they lost on clay. dont tell me that kohli is in the same league as those three.

Id put delpo in there, but he still has to upgrade.

bokehlicious
11-23-2009, 10:38 AM
Djokovic, as well as Murray, are better tennis players than Federer, on this I think we all seem to agree.

Too bad, the history books won't remember it and rate Fed's 15 slams above Nole's one slam... Numbers won't tell the whole story...

Sophocles
11-23-2009, 10:42 AM
We all know the sole barometer of greatness is a player's record against Nadal. So by that token, Djokovic... er hang on, wait a minute....

madmax
11-23-2009, 10:42 AM
Is Joker better than the best claycourter of 2009? Hell No, I should say...He is still primarily a hardcourt player, his game naturally is the best on the fast surfaces

Vida
11-23-2009, 10:51 AM
Is Joker better than the best claycourter of 2009? Hell No, I should say...He is still primarily a hardcourt player, his game naturally is the best on the fast surfaces

many people say this, and he himself said so many times, but Im not convinced. it might be because Im special, but never the less, djoker on clay just looks better and more complete than oh hard. it kind of fits his slug-n-spin-all-over-the-court game.

bokehlicious
11-23-2009, 10:55 AM
it might be because Im special

:hug: :hug: :D

Burrow
11-23-2009, 11:13 AM
federer could take a set off nadal, djokovic couldn't. Federer has beaten Nadal in Masters Series on clay, Djokovic hasn't.

NO

Clay Death
11-23-2009, 11:19 AM
federer could take a set off nadal, djokovic couldn't. Federer has beaten Nadal in Masters Series on clay, Djokovic hasn't.

NO



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Dini
11-23-2009, 11:22 AM
The stats speak for themselves. 3 RUs, 1 SF and win on RG is so far MUCH more than Djokovic has achieved on clay.

scarecrows
11-23-2009, 11:22 AM
Djokovic is a better player on any surface than Federer was at his age.

didnt know about Djokovic's exploits on grass

Ivanatis
11-23-2009, 11:24 AM
oh dear...and it's not even offseason:shrug:

Byrd
11-23-2009, 11:33 AM
Djokovic still doesn't have a win over Nadull after all his pursuits, Fed is still the 2nd best, or best if you consider this years clay season.

duong
11-23-2009, 11:33 AM
Many people have their opinion on that point, either in one way or the other,

but frankly speaking, I don't know :shrug:

Yes, you are right to point out Djokovic's great achievements on clay in the last 3 years.

But comparing with Federer is impossible.

As you said, Nadal changes everything about that appreciation :

- on the one hand, he quite often stopped Djokovic before Federer, then it gives an impression in favour of Federer

- on the other hand, seemingly Djokovic resisted more than Federer to Nadal, which gave an impression in favour of Djokovic, like Stat Racket's opinion, which I've read quite often.

Personally I don't know : Djokovic and Federer play very differently on clay, Djokovic is more patient, Federer is more powerful.

Especially when they play against Nadal, Federer takes more risks and plays with more power ; also he has a less good backhand : then sometimes he misses a lot and people say "you see Djokovic resists more".

But when he plays very well, his power is also very helpful.

I personally think that in Roland-Garros, which means on a quite slow clay, Federer has a better chance to beat Nadal than Djokovic ... because Djokovic lacks power on that surface against Nadal.

He can play 4 hours to maybe lead 2 sets to 1 ... but he would not go to 5 sets like that :shrug:

Then, in the last 3 years, even if Djokovic made great matches against Nadal, I think that Federer had a better chance to beat Nadal especially in Roland-Garros. Actually he could outplay Nadal on clay for some time, either in Hamburg and Madrid, or even in some parts of his matches in Roland-Garros or Roma/Monte-Carlo. If he can win a set quite easily like that, then only in such a case he had a chance to beat Nadal.

As for against other opponents, Federer has been slightly more consistent on clay, even though the results overestimate it.

Anyway, it was last years.

Now Federer is old, then surely I would give an advantage for Djokovic for the coming years.

But please notice that Del Potro will also be a force to count with, especially when you say that "Federer beat no big claycourt player" to win RG : he beat Del Potro, and I think this one will not be easy to beat on clay in coming years ;)

Burrow
11-23-2009, 11:36 AM
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Nice come back, fatty.

paseo
11-23-2009, 11:38 AM
rafa, djoko and fed are far and away above other players on clay, so for djoko and fed rafa is sort of a benchmark.

just look when and who against they played when they lost on clay. dont tell me that kohli is in the same league as those three.

Id put delpo in there, but he still has to upgrade.

Fair enough.

Let's look at Fed's record against Nadal on clay, it's crap. Djokovic though... even worse. It doesn't matter if Djokovic-Nadal matches were tighter than Fed-Nadal, the fact is Djokovic has never beaten Nadal on clay, and Fed has. So, even if we're using Nadal as the benchmark like you say, Fed is still better.

I already said in another thread that Djokovic could be someone who will give Nadal a hard time on clay in the future. And because Nadal is the Clay GOAT candidate, it's saying a lot. But right now, Fed is still better.

Vida
11-23-2009, 11:50 AM
Fair enough.

Let's look at Fed's record against Nadal on clay, it's crap. Djokovic though... even worse. It doesn't matter if Djokovic-Nadal matches were tighter than Fed-Nadal, the fact is Djokovic has never beaten Nadal on clay, and Fed has. So, even if we're using Nadal as the benchmark like you say, Fed is still better.

I already said in another thread that Djokovic could be someone who will give Nadal a hard time on clay in the future. And because Nadal is the Clay GOAT candidate, it's saying a lot. But right now, Fed is still better.

but right now fed is 'almost goat', or even goat. his achievements are comparable to none. so if we look at it that way, there is no point in this thread, since nobody can be compared to him.

still, 'who is better' at something doesnt neccesaraly mean 'who won more' in my opinion. so posters should use statistics as a tool to debate, not act like a tool by stating statistics without debate.

just saying...

paseo
11-23-2009, 12:12 PM
but right now fed is 'almost goat', or even goat. his achievements are comparable to none. so if we look at it that way, there is no point in this thread, since nobody can be compared to him.

still, 'who is better' at something doesnt neccesaraly mean 'who won more' in my opinion. so posters should use statistics as a tool to debate, not act like a tool by stating statistics without debate.

just saying...

Okay. is this your argument that Djokovic clay game is better than Fed?

last year djoker was still playing hardcourt tennis on clay. he was hugging the baseline, taking the ball rather early, and going for overpowering opponents rater than trying to construct an opening or force an error with patience and technique. this year I saw something different, and got the feeling it was partly a result of his racket change. this new stick appears to provide additional control on spin, and he is playing with more spin on both hardcourts and clay. now this might not be a good thing, but depending how a player employs it it can pay off. so to me it looks like starting from this season, djoker has a better clay game than fed.

petar_pan
11-23-2009, 12:21 PM
federer is better player
nadal was better until injury
murray was ahead of djokovic in ranking untill the injury
del potro won gs, than injury
i see 4 people better than him in 2010

yes, federer is better on clay

Byrd
11-23-2009, 12:31 PM
federer is better player
nadal was better until injury
murray was ahead od djokovic in ranking untill the injury
del potro won gs, than injury
i see 4 people better than him in 2010

yes, federer is better on clay

Some very good logic there...

Getta
11-23-2009, 12:48 PM
Some very good logic there...

strictly factual comparisons :shrug:

Byrd
11-23-2009, 01:01 PM
strictly factual comparisons :shrug:

Apart from none of it has any relevance to do with the thread :p

stebs
11-23-2009, 01:08 PM
He hasn't been yet but he could well be come '10 and I'm sure he is ready to try and prove it.

HarryMan
11-23-2009, 01:08 PM
This year the Djokovic - Nadal clay court rivalry was like the 06 year where it was all about Federer - Nadal on clay. In a way before Madrid, I think I would have had to agree with your points (assuming Djokovic did better than Federer at RG this year).

Unfortunately for Djokovic, even though Nadal and Djokovic produced a classic at Madrid, Djokovic ended up on the losing side yet again. In the final, Federer went on to beat Nadal, and that has a lot more impact than "challenging Nadal". On top of that winning RG just created a huge back between Federer and Djokovic. Perhaps in the future Djokovic could be as big or bigger than Federer on clay, but at this point in time, Federer is still the second best player in this era on clay (or the best player on clay this season).

ShotmaKer
11-23-2009, 01:14 PM
There are 2 ways to look at this. Either you speculate, or you compare facts. Facts say Federer has a better palmares on clay so far. If you wanna speculate, you can twist stats, perception and what not whichever way you want to prove your point in that matter. I'll stick to the facts.

Start da Game
11-23-2009, 01:22 PM
I'm glad someone else appreciates how accomplished Djokovic is on clay. He's only really had one bad loss on the surface in the last two years (Roland Garros this year). Away from the pressure of Grand Slams, I believe that Djokovic is the second best player on clay.

the day i saw djokovic against rafa in 2006, i felt this was the guy that was going to challenge rafa on clay in the coming years.......he really has a solid game for clay.......the way things panned out in the last 3 years, djokovic should consider himself unlucky even though he tested rafa to the limit on more than one occasion.......he was drawn in nadal's half time and time again and lost many chances for runner-up plates.......also there were a couple of matches that he really should have won against nadal.......madrid this year and maybe hamburg last year but rafa was just too much then.......

it's not for nothing that rafa doesn't like losing to djokovic on clay and fights like there is no tomorrow against him, because he knows djokovic is his real opponent on clay and he just doesn't want to allow djokovic enter his territory at all.......one could easily see that in madrid this year, whereas he looked as if he didn't care about his loss to fed in the final.......whether or not we agree that djokovic is the second best on clay, nadal definitely knows very well who his real challenger on clay is.......

ShotmaKer
11-23-2009, 01:27 PM
the day i saw djokovic against rafa in 2006, i felt this was the guy that was going to challenge rafa on clay in the coming years.......he really has a solid game for clay.......the way things panned out in the last 3 years, djokovic should consider himself unlucky even though he tested rafa to the limit on more than one occasion.......he was drawn in nadal's half time and time again and lost many chances for runner-up plates.......also there were a couple of matches that he really should have won against nadal.......madrid this year and maybe hamburg last year but rafa was just too much then.......

it's not for nothing that rafa doesn't like losing to djokovic on clay and fights like there is no tomorrow against him, because he knows djokovic is his real opponent on clay and he just doesn't want to allow djokovic enter his territory at all.......one could easily see that in madrid this year, whereas he looked as if he didn't care about his loss to fed in the final.......whether or not we agree that djokovic is the second best on clay, nadal definitely knows very well who his real challenger on clay is.......

again, this is speculation. that's the way you feel about it, fine. unless you are nadal himself, you can't possibly tell what's in his head. dude was on an undefeated streak on clay, i can't see why he wouldn't fight to death while he was able to, to preserve his streak from anyone, including djokovic.

Noleta
11-23-2009, 01:39 PM
Roger won RG.Novak didn't.End of discussion.

Vida
11-23-2009, 02:15 PM
Okay. is this your argument that Djokovic clay game is better than Fed?

well I can offer you not much more than my impression that djokovic does indeed have a better, more suited game for clay than federer. he hits with more spin, esp off backhand, he generally hits a heavier shot, moves equally good if not a bit better cause of the constant sliding :shrug: on the other hand, fed is by far more experienced and what he has going for him (forehand with which he can end points more easily) he uses with intelligence. that is about it. so when we see novak in his peak on that surface (whether it is next season or maybe more in the future), I think it will be more dangerous, or 'better' if you will, than what we saw from fed when he was playing his best tennis on clay.

cocrcici
11-23-2009, 02:17 PM
no, but...

Lleyton_
11-23-2009, 02:36 PM
No.

munZe konZa
11-23-2009, 02:37 PM
yes, Nole is obviously the most talented player today

Art&Soul
11-23-2009, 02:41 PM
yes, Nole is obviously the most talented player today

:spit::cuckoo::bs:

Noleta
11-23-2009, 02:52 PM
yes, Nole is obviously the most talented player today

:lol:You're a brave person to say this:spit:

phelbyn
11-23-2009, 03:24 PM
Federer is slightly better, but Djokovic is a better player on any surface than Federer was at his age.

Yikes! Hard to say really. Federer made the game what it is today. Hard to compare two players at different stages in their careers. Remember Federer had to face the likes of Sapras and others. Djokovic has had a tough run against the top guns on the tour... until recently that is.

manuel84
11-23-2009, 03:48 PM
Wishful thinkin'. Fed is this year's King of Clay.

Vamoooos

Start da Game
11-23-2009, 04:00 PM
well I can offer you not much more than my impression that djokovic does indeed have a better, more suited game for clay than federer. he hits with more spin, esp off backhand, he generally hits a heavier shot, moves equally good if not a bit better cause of the constant sliding :shrug: on the other hand, fed is by far more experienced and what he has going for him (forehand with which he can end points more easily) he uses with intelligence. that is about it. so when we see novak in his peak on that surface (whether it is next season or maybe more in the future), I think it will be more dangerous, or 'better' if you will, than what we saw from fed when he was playing his best tennis on clay.

agreed.......he definitely does these two important things better than federer on clay.......

1) hitting an aggressive backhand.......
2) moving slightly better than federer.......

timafi
11-23-2009, 04:02 PM
how many Masters on clay has Djokovic won?
how many finals in the French capital has Djokovic ever been to?ZERO!
how many Coupe des Mousquetaires is getting dusty at Djokovic's crib?ZERO!
Federer>>>>>>>>>>>Djokovic and his 15 slams are proof of that compared to Djokovic's fluke slam:tape:

rofe
11-23-2009, 04:04 PM
No

Corey Feldman
11-23-2009, 04:09 PM
i think you will find 1 Roland Garros Championship says a big No

Start da Game
11-23-2009, 04:21 PM
how many Masters on clay has Djokovic won?
how many finals in the French capital has Djokovic ever been to?ZERO!
how many Coupe des Mousquetaires is getting dusty at Djokovic's crib?ZERO!
Federer>>>>>>>>>>>Djokovic and his 15 slams are proof of that compared to Djokovic's fluke slam:tape:

i think you will find 1 Roland Garros Championship says a big No

these posts show that that you both did not go through the first post and just want to run your mouth.......

Corey Feldman
11-23-2009, 04:22 PM
seen it was you who started, why bother wasting time reading the OP

warm regards

Start da Game
11-23-2009, 04:25 PM
seen it was you who started, why bother wasting time reading the OP

warm regards

thanks but such efforts from you will not gain any attention from others and your opinions will go terribly unappreciated........

Arkulari
11-23-2009, 04:42 PM
it's simply shankar: stats don't lie, results at big stages don't lie

roger beat rafa this year in clay, just like he did in hamburg 07, nole has never been able to do so
this year, nole was in roger's side of the draw at rg and what happened? he lost to kohli in the third round, while roger went out and won the whole thing after a couple of big scares (haas and del potro)

yes, nole had a great run to the mc and rome finals, but he didn't manage to win against an already injured rafa, not even in madrid when he had rafa against the ropes

i do think that so far, he is the third best clay courter behind rafa and roger, but he is still not up to par with them

Start da Game
11-23-2009, 04:47 PM
it's simply shankar: stats don't lie, results at big stages don't lie

roger beat rafa this year in clay, just like he did in hamburg 07, nole has never been able to do so
this year, nole was in roger's side of the draw at rg and what happened? he lost to kohli in the third round, while roger went out and won the whole thing after a couple of big scares (haas and del potro)

yes, nole had a great run to the mc and rome finals, but he didn't manage to win against an already injured rafa, not even in madrid when he had rafa against the ropes

i do think that so far, he is the third best clay courter behind rafa and roger, but he is still not up to par with them

djokovic never got a fully exhausted rafa like at hamburg 07 and madrid 09 finals.......you should read my first post once again, natalia........

Vida
11-23-2009, 04:50 PM
just for fun, but all those mentioning statistics and facts should actually consider what both guys achieved at the same age on clay.

so by the time Federer was the age Novak is now - 22 and half he had:

Hamburg 02 over safin
Munich 03 over Nieminen
beaten by mantilla in Rome the same year
and RU in his home Gstaad by jiri novak

so thats one masters trophy, one masters dish (I guess they had those), and two rinky dinky plates he earned as a runner up in two mickey mouse tournies he 'managed' to reach finals at.

on the other hand, djokster owns:

trophy in Amersfoort in 06
RU in Umag few weeks later, lost to waw
Estoril 07 over gasquet
Rome 08 over waw
RU at MC this year
RU at Rome, both against nadal
MM Belgrade

so its two RU's in masters, no wins, 3 rinky dinky's and one RU plate from Umag.

now Novak edges this by just a little but still it is noticeable. now dont say 'fed was a late bloomer' cause it actually does not mean much, since djoker can turn out to be also (we just dont know yet). anyway, judging by the trends...:scared:

Corey Feldman
11-23-2009, 04:51 PM
.......you should read my first post once again, natalia........she doesnt have 3 hours to spare

Vida
11-23-2009, 04:53 PM
djokovic never got a fully exhausted rafa like at hamburg 07 and madrid 09 finals.......you should read my first post once again, natalia........

madrid finals this year was a complete sham. the surface which favored novak and fed, the conditions, the schedule of tournament right before RG, the war between djokovic and nadal that preceded it... the DRAW! hell, the way nadal played there should be erased from memory.

Arkulari
11-23-2009, 05:26 PM
djokovic never got a fully exhausted rafa like at hamburg 07 and madrid 09 finals.......you should read my first post once again, natalia........

it's always rafa injured or exhausted, how come nole never gets that even after playing year after year after year against him? ;)

was rafa 100% at the madrid sf? no and yet he still managed to win, because nole doesn't have the same edge he has on HC against him on clay ;)

as bad as the nadal-federer match-up is for roger, he still has managed to snatch 2 big clay titles from rafa, he could have withdrawn from either tournament (hamburg 06 comes to mind, when they both retired after the rome epic match) but he didn't, so it's also up to Rafa what happened :shrug:

yes, nole did kill himself in the two finals and the sf, and that's his whole fault, he should have saved some gas for RG, but he didn't and lost to kohli there, is that roger's fault? no

roger won the most points in clay season, but i don't think he's a better clay courter than rafa, same as i don't believe nole is a better clay courter than roger, it's not always up to numbers and statistics but also about general performance and clutch play, it's not the same to lose in the SF of a MS than to lose in the third round of a Slam

Start da Game
11-23-2009, 05:39 PM
it's always rafa injured or exhausted, how come nole never gets that even after playing year after year after year against him? ;)

was rafa 100% at the madrid sf? no and yet he still managed to win, because nole doesn't have the same edge he has on HC against him on clay ;)

as bad as the nadal-federer match-up is for roger, he still has managed to snatch 2 big clay titles from rafa, he could have withdrawn from either tournament (hamburg 06 comes to mind, when they both retired after the rome epic match) but he didn't, so it's also up to Rafa what happened :shrug:

yes, nole did kill himself in the two finals and the sf, and that's his whole fault, he should have saved some gas for RG, but he didn't and lost to kohli there, is that roger's fault? no

roger won the most points in clay season, but i don't think he's a better clay courter than rafa, same as i don't believe nole is a better clay courter than roger, it's not always up to numbers and statistics but also about general performance and clutch play, it's not the same to lose in the SF of a MS than to lose in the third round of a Slam

djokovic doesn't get an exhausted rafa because 90% of the times he is thrown in rafa's half on clay.......if he was 90% of the time in fed's half, i don't think he would have lost all those semifinals........

did you actually notice that the only player who took out djokovic(not just federer) in 2006, 2007 and 2008 FO is nadal?

and federer is simply no comparison to djokovic at his age on clay.......i find djokovic quite impressive for his age on clay.......

Everko
11-23-2009, 05:50 PM
Djokovic certainly is better on clay. Let's just see how many French Opens each will have at the end of their career.

Ichiban1920
11-23-2009, 05:53 PM
What a garbage thread started by a garbage Nadull-fanboy trying to discredit Federer. Djokovic better on clay? Who's got the French Open championship? Retard.:lol::retard:

Everko
11-23-2009, 05:57 PM
What a garbage thread started by a garbage Nadull-fanboy trying to discredit Federer. Djokovic better on clay? Who's got the French Open championship? Retard.:lol::retard:

and how many more years does Djokovic have than federer. Your the retard

Arkulari
11-23-2009, 06:01 PM
djokovic doesn't get an exhausted rafa because 90% of the times he is thrown in rafa's half on clay.......if he was 90% of the time in fed's half, i don't think he would have lost all those semifinals........

did you actually notice that the only player who took out djokovic(not just federer) in 2006, 2007 and 2008 FO is nadal?

and federer is simply no comparison to djokovic at his age on clay.......i find djokovic quite impressive for his age on clay.......

agreed completely, at nole's age, roger hadn't peaked yet and wasn't nowhere as good as he was in let's say 2006/2007, hasn't even won a slam, while nole had already won one and a tmc, which means he has reached a peak in 2008, even younger than he is today ;)

and for the nole gets thrown in rafa's half all the time on clay, doesn't the same happens in hc with roger? how many times have they faced each other at the AO or the USO? ;)

Ichiban1920
11-23-2009, 06:01 PM
and how many more years does Djokovic have than federer. Your the retard

What the fuck does age have anything to do with who's the better claycourter NOW?

superslam77
11-23-2009, 06:03 PM
Fed is much better than Nole on clay, the only reason Nole is going to win on clay is because Fedal won't be around or competitive soon enough. Fed could have 4-5 if it wasn't for Nadal.

Really it's unfair and not the other way around like you guys are trying to make it seem.

Ichiban1920
11-23-2009, 06:08 PM
These Nadull fans truly are pathetic. Trying to discredit Federer as a claycourter by saying Fakervic is a better claycourter at his age right now than Federer was at Fakervic's current age is pathetic and desperate.

Everko
11-23-2009, 06:11 PM
These Nadull fans truly are pathetic. Trying to discredit Federer as a claycourter by saying Fakervic is a better claycourter at his age right now than Federer was at Fakervic's current age is pathetic and desperate.

desperate for what? nadal to own Fed more than he already does

Vida
11-23-2009, 06:18 PM
hmmm,... havent checked, but I hope that those posters who honked the horn and yelled "facts are in fed favor... 15 slams, including RG la la la laaa!!!!" - are not the same posters who are now complaining about simple fact that when compared at the same age, facts go in djokers favor. :lol: oh boy.

Apemant
11-23-2009, 06:24 PM
hmmm,... havent checked, but I hope that those posters who honked the horn and yelled "facts are in fed favor... 15 slams, including RG la la la laaa!!!!" - are not the same posters who are now complaining about simple fact that when compared at the same age, facts go in djokers favor. :lol: oh boy.

There is no reason to compare anyone 'at the same age'.

Federer pales in comparison with Hewitt at the same age - even more so than with Novak. (I mean when both Hewitt and Federer were like 21.)

In other words, you fail.

Sophocles
11-23-2009, 06:26 PM
Players mature at different rates and careers often end unexpectedly, so comparisons by age are generally fatuous. Yes, Djokovic is arguably slightly more successful on clay than Fed was at the same age and COULD go on to achieve a better clay record than Federer's, but as of now, Federer has the better record, has outperformed Djokovic pretty much every year on clay, and is indisputably BETTER ON CLAY. Hope this helps.

Vida
11-23-2009, 06:28 PM
There is no reason to compare anyone 'at the same age'.

Federer pales in comparison with Hewitt at the same age - even more so than with Novak. (I mean when both Hewitt and Federer were like 21.)

In other words, you fail.

oh, I suppose it makes more sense to say a player who is six years older has won more.

Apemant
11-23-2009, 06:30 PM
oh, I suppose it makes more sense to say a player who is six years older has won more.

Not by much, but yes. Because it is something that really happened. What will happen to Nole, we simply don't know yet.

Agreed that it's not a very good argument either, though.

HKz
11-23-2009, 06:34 PM
let's see: a guy who has 5 MS shields on clay, 6 MS runner ups, 3 RG RUP and 1 RG victory vs a guy who has 1 MS and two MS runner-ups

the guy who won a MS shield this year in clay against the clay master vs a guy who has never been able to defeat said master in the surface

Nole is like 8-0 to Rafa on clay and has never managed to take a title out of him, no matter how injured or tired Rafa was, while Roger has gotten two masters series on clay (one of which was this year in Spain) out of Rafa

Roger doesn't lose to the likes of Kohli in RG, even after super painful losses in the surface (Rome 2006 rings a bell? he had two match points and still lose to Rafa, yet he managed to reach the final of RG that year for the first time)

I can kinda give the edge to Nole in hard due to his recent form (though his HC slam performance wasn't the best) but on clay and grass Roger is still much better than him

On HC, I think Nole is definitely gonna be one of Rafa's nightmare match-ups, but in clay? as bad as the fedal match-up is for Roger, he still has more chance on clay than Nole 95% of the time ;)

and for Federer not facing any big clay-courter, well, is it his fault that Nole lost to Kohli and Rafa to Toad? a player can only beat what is in front of him :shrug:

this

Arkulari
11-23-2009, 06:35 PM
taking ONLY this year into account, 1 MS and 1 GS vs 2 MS RUP.
the RG happened THIS year, so it has to be taken into account ;)

Corey Feldman
11-23-2009, 06:35 PM
What the fuck does age have anything to do with who's the better claycourter NOW?this

Vida
11-23-2009, 06:36 PM
Not by much, but yes. Because it is something that really happened. What will happen to Nole, we simply don't know yet.

Agreed that it's not a very good argument either, though.

I think you might've missed the point of this thread. it is not to compare who won more. if that was the point, than it would ba a fed-worshiping thread, and we don't want that do we?

so as the OP indicated, stats serve the purpose of illustrating the point he raised, not to actually prove anything. so in that sense, of course omparing them at the same age ALSO makes no sense, as I indicated by mentioning word such as 'fun'.

so what it all boils down is our joint estimation of how their games at their peak 'work' on said surface. and I havent seen any arguments there but my own earlier in this thread.

its a shame really.

Vida
11-23-2009, 06:39 PM
this

when now? you mean now as in if they found a clay court in london and tried out? or now this season now when fed was in a slump? or last year when djoker was playing different clay game altogether now?

see my point?

Beat
11-23-2009, 06:40 PM
stats wise, federer has numbers on his side but speaking from heart, i feel djokovic is better than federer on clay.......

which is a different way to say: you're biased.
frankly, i believe the stats more than your heart.

Corey Feldman
11-23-2009, 06:41 PM
when now? you mean now as in if they found a clay court in london and tried out? or now this season now when fed was in a slump? or last year when djoker was playing different clay game altogether now?

see my point?No

Apemant
11-23-2009, 06:47 PM
so what it all boils down is our joint estimation of how their games at their peak 'work' on said surface. and I havent seen any arguments there but my own earlier in this thread.

In that case, I go with Federer as well. :devil:

He can play beautifully on clay, when not abused on the BH side by the likes of Nadal. It doesn't mean that he always plays like that; but I'd take peak Fed on clay over peak Nole, any day of the year. :shrug: Fed's arsenal and strategic options are wider than those of Nole, I think.

Vida
11-23-2009, 06:52 PM
In that case, I go with Federer as well. :devil:

He can play beautifully on clay, when not abused on the BH side by the likes of Nadal. It doesn't mean that he always plays like that; but I'd take peak Fed on clay over peak Nole, any day of the year. :shrug: Fed's arsenal and strategic options are wider than those of Nole, I think.

ok that is a fair answer, though I dont really agree with it.

No

this is an answer from a smart ass.

Ichiban1920
11-23-2009, 07:17 PM
when now? you mean now as in if they found a clay court in london and tried out? or now this season now when fed was in a slump? or last year when djoker was playing different clay game altogether now?

see my point?

What the fuck are you rambling on about? It hurts my head even trying to understand that entire post.

Burrow
11-23-2009, 07:19 PM
Vida :retard:

Yes...'now' means last year... :cuckoo:

Use your brains.

Apemant
11-23-2009, 07:54 PM
ok that is a fair answer, though I dont really agree with it.

While I would prefer if you agreed with me completely, I can live with us at least agreeing to disagree with each other. :hatoff:




<tardmode>
Federer is betterer. :nerner: :ras:
</tardmode>

rocketassist
11-23-2009, 07:59 PM
Federer is better and has won Hamburg four times, Madrid once and RG whereas Djokovic won a clown event in Rome.

Not to mention the 2-1 head to head.

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
11-23-2009, 09:34 PM
wasn't it 2007 that the mumerings started- about the same time people started to say Fed wasn't the same player

there was talk mainly from the Joker fangirls that he was the better clay player

After the AO 2008 the Djokovic bandwagon was in full swing. and i don't doubt they will continue

if you're asking me- during their primes who was the better clay courter, then 10 times out of 10 its Federer

i don't see any signifcant improvments Novak will make to improve his game to even be in the shadow of Federer's clay game

People don't understand that Nadal's game has changed ALOT since 2005

in 05 he was complete defence

06 he gained significant confidence over Roger but was still about Defense, and truth be told- Roger only has himself to blame- in rome 2006 the match was Roger's and had he won it, he probably would have surpassed Rafa (for 2006 at least)

Nadal added a stronger serve and a more attacking game by 2007- Roger's perfect game finally started showing its first cracks- the win in Hamburg was only because the surface suited Federer

Nadal's game peaked in 2008- he played great attacking and defensive tennis- but you still have to remember- he was destroyed at both hard court slams in 2008

Federer's Forehand has suffered the worst deterioration

people talk about him playing more defense- thats because the FH was once a shot so good he could be playing defense and hit winners every other shot- now the FH on defense gets the ball back in play and makes Roger look more defensive

Aloimeh
11-24-2009, 01:19 AM
Based on results, absolutely not. Federer is clearly superior.

Federer has also been playing for a lot longer.

Wait until the end of their careers to make such an assessment.

I agree with Vida that clay seems to be a more natural "click" with Djokovic. He seems more limber and natural on the surface than even on hard. To be honest, he does look more natural on clay than Federer. Federer is made for grass; it's a tribute to his excellence that he's been able to translate that game so wonderfully to hard and even clay.

I agree that grass doesn't really "work" for Djokovic, although I could conceive of him making some adjustments that would make him much more competitive there.

It looks like he has improved a lot since the US Open. Good for him.

Bascule
11-24-2009, 01:24 AM
Based on results, absolutely not. Federer is clearly superior.

Federer has also been playing for a lot longer.

Wait until the end of their careers to make such an assessment.

I agree with Vida that clay seems to be a more natural "click" with Djokovic. He seems more limber and natural on the surface than even on hard. To be honest, he does look more natural on clay than Federer. Federer is made for grass; it's a tribute to his excellence that he's been able to translate that game so wonderfully to hard and even clay.

I agree that grass doesn't really "work" for Djokovic, although I could conceive of him making some adjustments that would make him much more competitive there.

It looks like he has improved a lot since the US Open. Good for him.

:D

Aloimeh
11-24-2009, 01:25 AM
:D

Hi Bascule!

Are you keeping the brat in line?

Bascule
11-24-2009, 01:28 AM
Hi Bascule!

Are you keeping the brat in line?

I'm trying...:o

Why did you appear right now when they are seeding "the sinners" for the ACC?:sad:
They will hunt you now.

Aloimeh
11-24-2009, 01:30 AM
I'm trying...:o

Has he provided the forum with his enlightened critique (of course, the main focus is Djokovic's box, not the match), or are we yet to receive it?

guga2120
11-24-2009, 01:32 AM
Novak, has been the 2nd best clay courter since 2008. Rafa, fully healthy is clearly the best, and Novak is the one that has pushed him the most. Federer's two wins over him were no different than Ferroro's and Soderling.

Oh no, my dear Start de game, Roger is still much better than Nole on clay, reached RG finals for 4 consecutive times ;)

I hate to disagree with you, but Novak, since 2008 has been the better clay court player. Roger, got very lucky this year at Roland Garros, b/c of what happened between Rafa and Novak in Madrid.

Bascule
11-24-2009, 01:33 AM
Has he provided the forum with his enlightened critique (of course, the main focus is Djokovic's box, not the match), or are we yet to receive it?

When I'm bashing him, he's bashing Nole's crew.:shrug: He is afraid to attack me. Typical and too funny.

Aloimeh
11-24-2009, 01:34 AM
I'm trying...:o

Why did you appear right now when they are seeding "the sinners" for the ACC?:sad:
They will hunt you now.

I couldn't care less about ACC. Or tennis, for that matter. ;) The economy is going to shits so I don't have all that much time for tennis nonsense. Hope you're doing well. Are you a civil engineer? I recently looked up bascule and saw that it was a common noun, actually - not a name, as I had once thought.

Corey Feldman
11-24-2009, 01:35 AM
another thing

2 wins v Nadal on clay >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0

hope that helps.

Bascule
11-24-2009, 01:35 AM
Has he provided the forum with his enlightened critique (of course, the main focus is Djokovic's box, not the match), or are we yet to receive it?

AGAIN:
Why did you appear right now when they are seeding "the sinners" for the ACC?
They will hunt you now.

Aloimeh
11-24-2009, 01:36 AM
When I'm bashing him, he's bashing Nole's crew.:shrug: He is afraid to attack me. Typical and too funny.

Why can't he just bash Nole? There's plenty to dislike about him, I suppose. It's so pathetic to bash his friends.

Bascule
11-24-2009, 01:36 AM
another thing

2 wins v Nadal on clay >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0

hope that helps.

The last one he owes to Novak.:p

Aloimeh
11-24-2009, 01:37 AM
another thing

2 wins v Nadal on clay >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0

hope that helps.

If Djokovic vs. Nadal on clay = 0, Maggoty vs. Nadal on clay < 0

Bascule
11-24-2009, 01:39 AM
Why can't he just bash Nole? There's plenty to dislike about him, I suppose. It's so pathetic to bash his friends.

well, it's functioning this way: when I love him, he loves Nole, when I hate him, he hates Nole. simple. And those posts are highly precious.:silly: I should actually copy/paste them all.:)

Bascule
11-24-2009, 01:41 AM
Why can't he just bash Nole? There's plenty to dislike about him, I suppose. It's so pathetic to bash his friends.

well, not quite friends, but Vajda and parents - even without doing anything interesting lately.

Aloimeh
11-24-2009, 01:42 AM
well, it's functioning this way: when I love him, he loves Nole, when I hate him, he hates Nole. simple. And those posts are highly precious.:silly: I should actually copy/paste them all.:)

Aw, what a runt. Cyberdependency.

Aloimeh
11-24-2009, 01:44 AM
well, not quite friends, but Vajda and parents - even without doing anything interesting lately.

Do you think his recent improvement (meaning djokovic's, not the brat's, who hasn't improved at all) is due to the new coach? Do you think this is a real thing or merely due to fatigue and apathy of the opposition?

Bascule
11-24-2009, 01:47 AM
Aw, what a runt. Cyberdependency.

:lol:
Anyway, I find that bashing him very amusing.

What are your predictions (though I know you're not Kleopatra) about WTF?

Bascule
11-24-2009, 01:49 AM
Do you think his recent improvement (meaning djokovic's, not the brat's, who hasn't improved at all) is due to the new coach? Do you think this is a real thing or merely due to fatigue and apathy of the opposition?

I think both. And, also, the help from the shrink he was seeing after Madrid SF.

Aloimeh
11-24-2009, 01:51 AM
:lol:
Anyway, I find that bashing him very amusing.

What are your predictions (though I know you're not Kleopatra) about WTF?

I am done with those days. Tennis is too unpredictable. I don't think it will be Nadal or Murray but it could be Fed or Djokovic.

Aloimeh
11-24-2009, 01:53 AM
I think both. And, also, the help from the shrink he was seeing after Madrid SF.

What shrink?

Bascule
11-24-2009, 01:54 AM
I am done with those days. Tennis is too unpredictable. I don't think it will be Nadal or Murray but it could be Fed or Djokovic.

I agree about the both. Did you notice how match predictions on MTF usually don't fit with the final results? Too funny.

Bascule
11-24-2009, 01:58 AM
What shrink?

I have friends who don't watch tennis much, but have time for the yellow pages.:rolleyes: They told me he was totally mentally broken after Madrid (what was obvious), that he completely lost his confidence and found a shrink (don't know his/her name). I don't know if it's true or not, but sounds logical to me.

Bascule
11-24-2009, 02:11 AM
I couldn't care less about ACC. Or tennis, for that matter. ;) The economy is going to shits so I don't have all that much time for tennis nonsense. Hope you're doing well. Are you a civil engineer? I recently looked up bascule and saw that it was a common noun, actually - not a name, as I had once thought.

oh, I saw this now. bascule is Libra or a type of the bridge. it's a nickname a friend gave me at high school according to horoscope sign.:o
yes, i am civil engineer, but can't find a job as an engineer. i actually work as a teacher still. How are your exams going? The situation here is worse and worse....in every way.

Aloimeh
11-24-2009, 03:46 AM
oh, I saw this now. bascule is Libra or a type of the bridge. it's a nickname a friend gave me at high school according to horoscope sign.:o
yes, i am civil engineer, but can't find a job as an engineer. i actually work as a teacher still. How are your exams going? The situation here is worse and worse....in every way.

The situation in the US will detonate. The dollar is worthless. We are in for major inflation and huge unemployment and its going to get very ugly. How is it worse and worse in ever way with you? The EU promises are crap - nothing will improve I am sure.

I'm surprised Djokovic needed a shrink. I hope he can find strength within and avoid further use.

Bascule
11-24-2009, 03:59 AM
The situation in the US will detonate. The dollar is worthless. We are in for major inflation and huge unemployment and its going to get very ugly. How is it worse and worse in ever way with you? The EU promises are crap - nothing will improve I am sure.

I'm surprised Djokovic needed a shrink. I hope he can find strength within and avoid further use.
Well, my example: you can't even get the permanent job at school, what was easy several years ago. They brought the new laws these days about school which is unbelievable stupid and ruins the teachers profession giving to spoiled teenagers much more space for manipulations, there are many manipulative tasks to keep you afraid to loose job so easy, that's unbelievable. also, if you just started to work as a teacher you can teach and examin but not giving marks in the first three months :retard: what is utterly stupid and not logical at all. like some retarded moron who never saw any school wrote it. Also, the law in other departments are retarded also, everyone is so disappointed. people loose the jobs all the time, they cut and eat their fingers in front of camera in protests - that's the fashion lately. No to mention medical treatments. if you got cancer, you should wait at least for 6 months for any kind of examine or treatment (you are already dead) except you know the director of the hospital as my neighbor does.:rolleyes: Or, the baby of my sister who died last month...terrible...the baby got the best marks at birth and the next week, he was dying and the agony was too long : for weeks and weeks...no operations at all.
They ruined the industry trying to sell to strangers, who ever buys something, it became worse than ever for the workers...producing suddenly stops...no salaries...no social programs too...to stop here.

bhathiya9999
11-24-2009, 06:31 AM
he can be better than Federer

Forehander
11-24-2009, 06:48 AM
nope

Sunfire
11-24-2009, 07:59 AM
I was surprise to even saw the thread title?
Even after Federer get the clay SLAM? And beat Rafa at the Masters Final this season?
Really????

paseo
11-24-2009, 09:03 AM
I thought the thread is about comparing Fed (age : 28) and Djokovic (age: 22) clay game, right now? Not about Fed's game when he was 22.

IMO, Fed is better. Because his forehand is a big powerful weapon. His backhand makes fewer error on clay, cause he got more time to prepare for it. Or better yet, he can run around it more often than on any other surface. Djokovic's grounstrokes are solid and also powerful, but neither his forehand or backhand is as big as the Federer forehand. It's better to have one huge weapon than two good ones. Look at Nadal, on clay, he's a forehand monster. Nadal's super-heavy forehand top spin is a huge weapon on clay, and he also would run around his backhand every time he can. Getting attacked by a huge weapon time and time again is tougher than getting attacked by good weapons everytime.

Now, if this is the case, why doesn't Gonzalez also be at the top of the clay game? he has a huge forehand. Gonzalez is a good clay courter, but he's not among the top because his movement is not good enough. A few posters said that Djokovic movement is better on clay than Fed. I disagree, I think Fed movement is better. But, no matter which movement is better, they both have top class movement on clay. Great movement makes it easier to get into a great position to unload your primary weapon.

And there's stamina. Clay cout tennis is a physical game. I don't know how or why, but a 28 years old Fed is more fit than a 22 years old Djokovic. Strange, but it's the way it is right now. Of course, while Fed is getting old, Djokovic is getting better, maybe in 4 or 5 years, Fed would barely get a set from Djokovic. who knows?.

one more thing, Fed has a better kick serve, which is very useful on clay. (I just remember this :))

manuel84
11-24-2009, 10:44 AM
"Federer doesn't lose to the likes of Kohli at RG."

Yes, but that's an understatement. He would have dominated Paris about the same way he ruled London and New York if it wasn't for you-know-who.

Johnny Mac was right: Feddy's win this year was no surprise since for years, he had been the undisputed second-best on clay. VAMOS LOL

W!MBLEDON
11-24-2009, 10:45 AM
heh

no

duong
11-24-2009, 12:59 PM
well I can offer you not much more than my impression that djokovic does indeed have a better, more suited game for clay than federer. he hits with more spin, esp off backhand, he generally hits a heavier shot

Fed has generally a heavier forehand and can hit it with more spin than Djokovic.

Djokovic has other advantages, I agree, but I just don't agree with that.

duong
11-24-2009, 01:17 PM
Roger, got very lucky this year at Roland Garros, b/c of what happened between Rafa and Novak in Madrid.

saying that Nadal and Djokovic lost RG because of Madrid SF is total bullshit.

We are speaking about players who are much used to such long matches, and there was more than one week before RG.

We've had so many examples of Nadal playing 4-5 hours and still playing great only one or two days later :shrug:

Let's not speak about more than one week.

And Djokovic is also a top-athlet, he may have been hurt mentally but well for his loss against Kohlschreiber, he has made us so used to losses of energy y or playing erratic on one day.

Why do tennis fans need to bring such theories like this ?

Well, I know it's good for mythology to have theories like that : you have a whole theory explaing the whole year, that's always pleasant for the mind :shrug:

But the reality is much more prosaic than that :shrug:

And please note that it doesn't prevent other arguments about Djokovic being better than Federer on clay,

but this kind of theories well pleasant for the mind but totally unrealistic :rolleyes:

duong
11-24-2009, 01:24 PM
Now, at the same age, Djokovic has clearly achieved far far more than Federer on clay (and on all surfaces but that may be the last moment to say so, since it's precisely from Djokovic's current age that Fed starts winning everything) ... and he has done that for 3 years, which is hugely remarkable :yeah:

We will see next years : I really hope he will play great since I prefer him and his game hugely more than Nadal's and Murray's :lol:

stebs
11-24-2009, 01:37 PM
Well, I know it's good for mythology to have theories like that : you have a whole theory explaing the whole year, that's always pleasant for the mind :shrug:

Good point. So many people have been quick to say something like the year turned with that match. Whilst it was a great match which certainly appeared to have large bearings on Djokovic at least for a month or two, it certainly did not determin the whole year.

So many poeple love to pick patterns and use them to explain all things. That is human nature to find patterns and significance but sometimes there can be a wider range of reasons, factors and determining points and motivations over just one match or one sequence of results. It's like people trying to pinpoint turning point matches in a players careers, there can be big matches but for the most part development doesn't happen suddenly.

The importance of pivotal moments in tennis are blown slightly out of proportion in my opinion. They happen for sure, but not all the time.

Start da Game
11-24-2009, 01:43 PM
this thread is about your actual feeling of who is better, whose game is better suited for the surface and who among those two is more capable of challenging the greatest ever(possibly) on clay........no need to give a damn about what stats say.......there are so many things beyond stats.......a djokovic fan can easily bring out the killer stat(age) and end this discussion right now.......so, lets just give our opinions and what we really feel about these two players on clay.......

my feeling is that, djokovic is better suited to the surface and is more capable of challenging nadal than federer.......

shmeeko69
11-24-2009, 01:45 PM
I don't think there's much in it, but
I would put Federer just ahead of Djokovic
on this surface & slghtly behind Nadal,
assuming they're all fully fit.

:bounce:FEDERER:bounce:NO.:bounce:1:bounce:

Mark :worship:

duong
11-24-2009, 01:48 PM
The importance of pivotal moments in tennis are blown slightly out of proportion in my opinion. They happen for sure, but not all the time.

yes, for instance RG 84 final between Lendl and MacEnroe was certainly a turning-point, especially in MacEnroe's carreer, as Lendl himself said.

As for that match in Madrid, probably it was hard mentally for Djokovic, but mostly because he had lost many other hard matches against Nadal before.

it's a whole story, not only that match.

And against Kohlschreiber, he rather looked not strong physically, which, actually, has often happened in his carreer and not especially after a hard match :shrug:

As for Nadal, he had a problem with his knee before that match and he had it afterwards :shrug:

Vida
11-24-2009, 01:50 PM
I thought the thread is about comparing Fed (age : 28) and Djokovic (age: 22) clay game, right now? Not about Fed's game when he was 22.

IMO, Fed is better. Because his forehand is a big powerful weapon. His backhand makes fewer error on clay, cause he got more time to prepare for it. Or better yet, he can run around it more often than on any other surface. Djokovic's grounstrokes are solid and also powerful, but neither his forehand or backhand is as big as the Federer forehand. It's better to have one huge weapon than two good ones. Look at Nadal, on clay, he's a forehand monster. Nadal's super-heavy forehand top spin is a huge weapon on clay, and he also would run around his backhand every time he can. Getting attacked by a huge weapon time and time again is tougher than getting attacked by good weapons everytime.

Now, if this is the case, why doesn't Gonzalez also be at the top of the clay game? he has a huge forehand. Gonzalez is a good clay courter, but he's not among the top because his movement is not good enough. A few posters said that Djokovic movement is better on clay than Fed. I disagree, I think Fed movement is better. But, no matter which movement is better, they both have top class movement on clay. Great movement makes it easier to get into a great position to unload your primary weapon.

And there's stamina. Clay cout tennis is a physical game. I don't know how or why, but a 28 years old Fed is more fit than a 22 years old Djokovic. Strange, but it's the way it is right now. Of course, while Fed is getting old, Djokovic is getting better, maybe in 4 or 5 years, Fed would barely get a set from Djokovic. who knows?.

one more thing, Fed has a better kick serve, which is very useful on clay. (I just remember this :))

nice to see a post with some substance in this thread. well look, comparing Djoker and Fed on clay at their present age isnt exactly doing Fed a favor. yeah results wise it was great, since he took the elusive French, but as always, particular results are a product of a set f circumstances and it this year it clicked for Fed :shrug: anyway, you can hardly argue that Fed at 28 is a better clay courter than he was few years back, while he had some ambition in French with Nadal involved. also, if you look how Djoker played this season on clay overall, he played real well, far better than last year (barring French), and in a way he was better than Fed - who was in real bad form ever since AO finals, till Madrid finals. again, dont let results interfere here cause we would be doing maths not debating over something as abstract as 'who is better at something'. so I would rather completely discard the premise of age here and try to deal with technical aspects of how those guys actually play their best on this surface. ultimately it doesnt really matter, since I feel we are on the same page here.

so look, the point of weapons stands, just I feel you've scewed a bit the ratio of advantage ad disadvantage of ' one big weapon' against 'more good weapons'. Feds forehand is indeed huge, but not as huge on clay as it is on faster surfaces. also, its not like Djokers forehand is merely 'good'. Id say its just a tad less good than Feds on clay. I mean he also ends points with it though probably a bit less than Fed. also you can compare backhands and argue that there is more advantage in Djokers backhand over Feds, than Feds forehand over Djokers - since Feds backhand can be exploited more than Djokers forehand, for example. and so on and on and on, until it comes down to our impression or whatever. to me it just looks like Djokers clay game might in the future (perhaps next season) be more formidable than was Feds in lets say 2006.

completely agree with your view on stamina and that, not so sure about second serve. Fed does have a better first serve on all surfaces though.


Fed has generally a heavier forehand and can hit it with more spin than Djokovic.

Djokovic has other advantages, I agree, but I just don't agree with that.

not sure about that. Fed utilitizes his forehand by using superior pace he can administer in his shots... hmmm, not sure if this sounds right:D Djoker has more extreme grip and with this new racket... not sure, but Id say overall Djoker at least strikes with more spin in average. perhaps there is some statistics about this, that would be cool.

duong
11-24-2009, 01:58 PM
this thread is about your actual feeling of who is better, whose game is better suited for the surface and who among those two is more capable of challenging the greatest ever(possibly) on clay........no need to give a damn about what stats say.......there are so many things beyond stats.......a djokovic fan can easily bring out the killer stat(age) and end this discussion right now.......so, lets just give our opinions and what we really feel about these two players on clay.......

my feeling is that, djokovic is better suited to the surface and is more capable of challenging nadal than federer.......

I totally agree with that with this way to look at things.

In my mind there's no clear hierarchy, to be honest.

But what I mostly wanted to mention is that I know that many people have been impressed by Madrid or other very hard matches Djokovic and Nadal have played together.

I know that : it's more impressive than a Fed's error festival, or even than a good winners-match like in Hamburg and Madrid where there is no such fight (even Roma 2006 was a huge match but I'm sure that people who are impressed by those fights between Nadal and Djokovic would not see the same kind of fight in that match, although it was huge).

It looks as a "real clay-fight" as many imagine.

But ... Federer has another style of play on clay, which has made some very good things as well.

It's just a different style :shrug:

I think :

- on the one hand, you have many people caring too much about (current) stats to guve Fed the edge

- on the other hand, you have also people who are impressed about the style of play which Djokovic and Nadal play on clay together

But if Djokovic had more power (personally I think he lacks a little bit power, especially on clay, especially against Nadal), I'm sure he would love to use it ;)

Even if he made more errors, it would certainly be useful to beat Nadal especially in a five setter-match ;)

You will see, if Del Potro plays against Nadal on clay, he will try to play very powerfully, not just make a "good fight".

Because it's his only chance to beat Nadal on clay, esp in a 5-setter match.

And fortunately for him JMDP has more power than Djokovic (unfortunately he has other drawbacks).

duong
11-24-2009, 02:02 PM
not sure about that. Fed utilitizes his forehand by using superior pace he can administer in his shots... hmmm, not sure if this sounds right:D Djoker has more extreme grip and with this new racket... not sure, but Id say overall Djoker at least strikes with more spin in average. perhaps there is some statistics about this, that would be cool.

I've seen some stats about Fed's spin in his forehand which were very impressive, not as much as Nadal's but very impressive.

I don't remember any stats like that about Djokvic's, but from my eyes, I think Fed can put more spin than him when he wants.

The fact that Fed likes playing other styles of forehands, esp flatter, on clay, and that Djokovic more usually plays his forehand with spin, is another fact.

stebs
11-24-2009, 02:11 PM
But what I mostly wanted to mention is that I know that many people have been impressed by Madrid or other very hard matches Djokovic and Nadal have played together.

I know that : it's more impressive than a Fed's error festival, or even than a good winners-match like in Hamburg and Madrid where there is no such fight (even Roma 2006 was a huge match but I'm sure that people who are impressed by those fights between Nadal and Djokovic would not see the same kind of fight in that match, although it was huge).

It looks as a "real clay-fight" as many imagine.

But ... Federer has another style of play on clay, which has made some very good things as well.

That's a very perceptive thing to say.

100% agreement over this. Federer has always been pretty streaky during the course of individual matches against Nadal. Many times clicking completely to win 4 games on the trot before collapsing to throw away sets. Djokovic on the other hand plays a more battling style, he goes with Nadal to the end which is, as you say, maybe a more impressive feat to watch. It doesn't actually mean DJokovic is more effective. Those four game hot streaks for Federer show the signs of how easy he can make it look. It doesn't mean it is actually easy though.

As for this year purely. Overall, and not taking into account the importance of each tournament, I would say Djokovic has played better tennis. I think that is fair to say given the performances and consistency he showed better than Federer up til RG. Thing is, once he had that bad loss, it is easy to end the debate because in tennis the slams are the most important thing. I agree actually with the OP that it is pointless to discuss things in those terms. Otherwise you always end up with strange conclusions based on singular matches. Overall, Djokovic played better clay tennis than Federe rthis year I think even though he accomplished less. That is why Federer is smarter perhaps?

As for potential which is a very different question. I think Djokovic has a big potential to win RG and to be a threat on clay for many years to come. I don't see him reaching a higher peak level than Federer there because despite what some people are saying he will never match Federer '05 and '06 movement which was out of this world.

zlaja777
11-24-2009, 03:34 PM
The stats speak for themselves. 3 RUs, 1 SF and win on RG is so far MUCH more than Djokovic has achieved on clay.

Yes. but Novak is 22 soo...