Politics: Tensions escalate between US and Israel (page 37) [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Politics: Tensions escalate between US and Israel (page 37)

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tangerine_dream
11-17-2009, 05:10 PM
But, but, I thought Europe wasn't racist?

http://movies.yahoo.com/feature/movie-talk-couples-retreat-posters.html

Universal's UK 'Couples Retreat' Poster Brings Cries of Racism by Removing Black Actors

November 16, 2009

A racially-tinged advertising decision has gone awry for the movie "Couples Retreat."

Marketers of the Vince Vaughn comedy, which stars four couples in a tropical paradise, removed black actors Faizon Love and Kali Hawk from the promotional poster used in the United Kingdom after the U.S. version used all four couples. In response to outrage over the move, a Universal spokesman said the altered poster aimed "to simplify the poster to actors who are most [recognizable] in international markets."

While Love and Hawk aren't generally as well known as the film's other six stars, it's still a questionable motive. As noted in a 2007 New York Times article, American films with black stars typically struggle in the overseas market. According to the article, Will Smith, the undisputed king of the American box office, ranks no better than twelfth when it comes to ticket sales internationally. Simply put, said industry watcher James Ulmer, "The international marketplace is still fairly racist."

:baby:

Zirconek
11-17-2009, 05:25 PM
I'm waiting for Tommy_Vercetti to post here.

Bilbo
11-17-2009, 05:29 PM
big deal

safin-rules-no.1
11-17-2009, 05:53 PM
They shouldn't have been removed because this type of reponse was bound to happen. Also, anyone else get the feeling the article is trying to suggest that the rest of the world, other than the USA, is racist?!

Bilbo
11-17-2009, 05:59 PM
Also, anyone else get the feeling the article is trying to suggest that the rest of the world, other than the USA, is racist?!

that is what tangy wants to achieve with this post.

i don't know about the UK being racist. but what i know for sure is that the USA is definately more racist.

tangerine_dream
11-17-2009, 06:02 PM
Also, anyone else get the feeling the article is trying to suggest that the rest of the world, other than the USA, is racist?!
:lol: You're right, you do read too much into things.

It's odd how the one black couple would be deemed so offensive to international audiences that they felt the need to remove them from the background. There are no black couples in the UK? :confused:

Personally I'd be more offended by Vince Vaughn.

But this movie looks interesting: German journalist Günter Wallraff went undercover to find out what it was like to be black in Germany, "Schwarz auf Weiss" ("Black on White"). The consensus: not a good experience (http://abcnews.go.com/International/german-journalist-criticized-film-racism/story?id=8897384).

safin-rules-no.1
11-17-2009, 06:04 PM
:lol: You're right, you do read too much into things.

It's odd how the one black couple would be deemed so offensive to international audiences that they felt the need to remove them from the background. There are no black couples in the UK? :confused:

Personally I'd be more offended by Vince Vaughn.

:retard: You're making yourself look more stupid with every post.

tangerine_dream
11-17-2009, 06:11 PM
^^ How's your banged-up ass, btw?

safin-rules-no.1
11-17-2009, 07:29 PM
^^ How's your banged-up ass, btw?

Fine. Thanks for asking.

buddyholly
11-17-2009, 07:45 PM
Having seen the reviews for this movie, my guess would have been that they asked to be removed.

buddyholly
11-17-2009, 07:47 PM
i don't know about the UK being racist. but what i know for sure is that the USA is definately more racist.

How can you say that when everyone knows the US is run by Jews and has a black figurehead?

Bilbo
11-17-2009, 08:00 PM
How can you say that when everyone knows the US is run by Jews and has a black figurehead?

Jews are an expection. They are Americans best friends.

Byrd
11-17-2009, 08:29 PM
Another situation which is blown-out of proportion by the PC brigade aka Tangy being a tool, meh....

prima donna
11-17-2009, 10:05 PM
You don't say.

Dini
11-17-2009, 10:08 PM
http://tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=396019

TMJordan
11-17-2009, 10:09 PM
Maybe it's time to troll on wtaworld again.

tangerine_dream
11-17-2009, 10:26 PM
Another situation which is blown-out of proportion by the PC brigade aka Tangy being a tool, meh....
How is it blown out of proportion? I posted a simple news fact: 'UK removes black actors from movie poster'. That's not my doing, that's the UK's fault. Like any good business they are responding to the needs of their racist audience.

I don't blame you for being embarrassed by your country, you should be, since you're supposed to be the civilized ones over there.

partygirl
11-17-2009, 10:40 PM
According to the article, Will Smith, the undisputed king of the American box office, ranks no better than twelfth when it comes to ticket sales internationally. Simply put, said industry watcher James Ulmer, "The international marketplace is still fairly racist."
How about Will Smith sucks & his movies are worse?
Nothing on this planet would have me pay to see anything with him "acting" in it. :haha:

I'm half black & i won't even watch his movies for free...could that be at all why he is appropriately 12th worldwide?

Snoo Foo
11-17-2009, 10:47 PM
Will Smith, the undisputed king of the American box office

as if this country didn't have enough fucking problems, now it's proven we have the world's most shiteous taste in movies :sobbing:

Henry Chinaski
11-17-2009, 11:01 PM
not very clever. reminds me of the genius coca cola designated driver campaign here last year where the ad sported a coke drinking black cartoon chauffering around his 4 white friends

Bilbo
11-17-2009, 11:05 PM
Will Smith, the undisputed king of the American box office

shows you how terrible american taste is. can't be worse than this.

buddyholly
11-17-2009, 11:36 PM
shows you how terrible american taste is. can't be worse than this.

Americans are crazy for MJ. So in this case I will have to agree with you, my little jealous one.

But I don't care for either one. Ray Charles is my token black idol.

ryan23
11-17-2009, 11:38 PM
Nice thread title, UK removes black actors from movie poster, you make it look like the whole UK is behind this when infact 99.9 percent of the people in the UK havent even heard of this story

buddyholly
11-18-2009, 01:14 AM
Nice thread title, UK removes black actors from movie poster, you make it look like the whole UK is behind this when infact 99.9 percent of the people in the UK havent even heard of this story

Good point, the UK did not do the removing. But still up for discussion is why it was done. The movie industry probably has good demographics and if they concluded that a poster without a black couple would help the box office, then they probably know what they are doing.

But let me risk the wrath of MTF by suggesting that this demographic may only be applicable to the type of audience that would pay to see that movie.

Byrd
11-18-2009, 03:04 AM
How is it blown out of proportion? I posted a simple news fact: 'UK removes black actors from movie poster'. That's not my doing, that's the UK's fault. Like any good business they are responding to the needs of their racist audience.

I don't blame you for being embarrassed by your country, you should be, since you're supposed to be the civilized ones over there.

How can you point the blame on the UK, when it's clearly stated to be a marketing issue which caters towards the international audience, not just the the UK. So if your going to stick to your guns, you might as well state the whole world as being racist, apart from the U.S.A, as you can clearly see, with them having the black people in their marketing poster, their not remotely racist are they. Try and look at the bigger issue (won't be expecting much from you as always).

Action Jackson
11-18-2009, 03:09 AM
Good trolling Tangy.

Ilovetheblues_86
11-18-2009, 04:11 AM
Off course they took off the black actors because they are black. If this is racism I don´t know. Sometimes only Gollum was in the Lord of The Rings promotion of LOTR2 and I doubt any serious hobbitt would get offendet by that.

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 04:32 AM
Off course they took off the black actors because they are black. If this is racism I don´t know. Sometimes only Gollum was in the Lord of The Rings promotion of LOTR2 and I doubt any serious hobbitt would get offendet by that.

If people had bothered to read the whole article (which I did yesterday ;) ) they would have known that they removed the black couple from the poster so the movie wouldn't be deemed a "black" movie because "black" movies don't perform well internationally. The company claims they removed them because they are unknown, which is silly. I am curious though as to how known Malin Akerman and Jon Favreau are worldwide. :shrug: The fact that they changed the poster is ridiculous. The black couple are already situated behind everyone else and smaller than they are too :rolleyes:

US version

http://l.yimg.com/a/i/mo/pseudoblog_couplesretreatus600.jpg

UK version

http://l.yimg.com/a/i/mo/pseudoblog_couplesretreatuk600.jpg

BTW, I saw the movie Friday night and I throughly enjoyed it :yeah: Wished the black girl was less ignorant-acting, but at least she made it in the movie in the first place.

TMJordan
11-18-2009, 04:46 AM
Hmmmmmm I like the UK poster better.

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 05:03 AM
Their faces look weird in the UK one. Well, they look weird in both of them but the look marginally better in the US one.

TMJordan
11-18-2009, 05:06 AM
I only like it cuz I get a better view of Kristen Bell :hearts:

But yeah, people are making a big deal out of nothing. It's kinda funny actually. There was really no point for them to remove the black people but no need to lose sleep over it.

Jōris
11-18-2009, 05:46 AM
How to get free publicity by stirring up a racist row. Now the good PC people of the UK feel obligated to sit through another shitty Vince Vaughn movie.

scarecrows
11-18-2009, 05:48 AM
Hmmmmmm I like the UK poster better.

racist

Ilovetheblues_86
11-18-2009, 05:51 AM
The black couple is more relevant to american audiences which has a significant afro-american audience than for the UK one.
They probably took off the black couple because they know europeans prefer to watch a movie only with white people. Racism? Off course. But then again no one asks to put whites into movies dedicated to the afro-americane people.
This kind of issue is like trying to find a hole in an already holed swiss cheese. Its obvious and is permanent because differences are not easily accepted. My dog bcomes scared when mother changes her hair you know.

Jōris
11-18-2009, 06:09 AM
There's a very simple explanation for this. The black couple was arrested during a drug bust and couldn't make it for the UK shooting.

safin-rules-no.1
11-18-2009, 09:12 AM
How is it blown out of proportion? I posted a simple news fact: 'UK removes black actors from movie poster'. That's not my doing, that's the UK's fault. Like any good business they are responding to the needs of their racist audience.

I don't blame you for being embarrassed by your country, you should be, since you're supposed to be the civilized ones over there.

This is highly offensive

Bilbo
11-18-2009, 10:31 AM
let me guess, tangy is black

always had this feeling

who's watching low quality movies like this, anyway, with 2012 running and 2009's best movie (avatar) still to come.

buddyholly
11-18-2009, 10:50 AM
2012??????? How the movie industry makes gazillions off the brainless masses.

Bilbo
11-18-2009, 11:10 AM
2012??????? How the movie industry makes gazillions off the brainless masses.

why brainless? it's good entertainment with great special effects. of course emmerich isn't famous for doing great stories. however, avatar will combine both. cameron is one of the best directors of all-time and with sigourney weaver it makes it a nearly perfect double.

Nathaliia
11-18-2009, 11:14 AM
2012 was awfully predictable but good entertainment, I agree.

Purple Rainbow
11-18-2009, 11:45 AM
Where does Tangys obsession with Europe come from anyway? Could it be an inferiority complex?

Bilbo
11-18-2009, 12:00 PM
UK version

http://l.yimg.com/a/i/mo/pseudoblog_couplesretreatuk600.jpg

I'm very sure the background has been taken from Crysis.

What an awful poster. Looks totally fake.

buddyholly
11-18-2009, 12:37 PM
why brainless? it's good entertainment with great special effects.

Watching computer-generated things being destroyed fits my definition of things to do that don't involve brainwork.

Bilbo
11-18-2009, 12:43 PM
Watching computer-generated things being destroyed fits my definition of things to do that don't involve brainwork.

do you even know how difficult it is to develop computer-generated things? it's the work of mathematicians, physicists and computer scientists.

Purple Rainbow
11-18-2009, 01:00 PM
do you even know how difficult it is to develop computer-generated things? it's the work of mathematicians, physicists and computer scientists.

For some reason I prefer watching a movie made mostly by scriptwriters, directors and actors rather than mathematicians, physicists and computer scientists.

I wouldn't want Steven Spielberg to lead NASA either.

Byrd
11-18-2009, 01:05 PM
2012 was poor aside from the CGI, save your money.

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 01:09 PM
I think some of you could greatly benefit from the articles posted on this site. Great read :wavey:

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/

Bilbo
11-18-2009, 01:10 PM
For some reason I prefer watching a movie made mostly by scriptwriters, directors and actors rather than mathematicians, physicists and computer scientists.

i never denied that. anyone knows gone with the wind or ben hur are better movies than anything else which got produced today. it's perfection of the highest order. i'm more a fan of pre-1970 movies anyway.

however, movies are different today and you've to lower your expectations.

btw spielberg is overrated imo. cameron is a notch better. also ridley scott i rate very high.

krystlel
11-18-2009, 01:23 PM
Thanks for the posting of the photos - gives a clearer picture of the difference it makes. I mean, they were already situated far enough in the background that it surely didn't matter that much. I didn't even notice them there first-hand until staring at it longer.

Getta
11-18-2009, 01:25 PM
wow someone got it right.

buddyholly
11-18-2009, 02:01 PM
do you even know how difficult it is to develop computer-generated things? it's the work of mathematicians, physicists and computer scientists.

And the end result is that we see what are obviously cartoon buildings falling down. Those mathematicians, physicists and computer scientists only do it because people are willing to pay for brainless entertainment.

buddyholly
11-18-2009, 02:03 PM
Thanks for the posting of the photos - gives a clearer picture of the difference it makes. I mean, they were already situated far enough in the background that it surely didn't matter that much. I didn't even notice them there first-hand until staring at it longer.

Maybe you are colour blind.

Bilbo
11-18-2009, 02:08 PM
And the end result is that we see what are obviously cartoon buildings falling down.

last time i checked it was rendering and not a cartoon.

however, you can show us how to make it better.

Stensland
11-18-2009, 02:11 PM
it's the core of capitalism, what's the big deal? people behind the scenes decided that having a poster without blacks sells the movie better than the original one as the revised one (apparently) plays to the british audience; so all we have on full display here are the basic principles of consumer-driven marketing. buddyholly and jimnik should be pretty alright with this. ;)

buddyholly
11-18-2009, 03:10 PM
it's the core of capitalism, what's the big deal? people behind the scenes decided that having a poster without blacks sells the movie better than the original one as the revised one (apparently) plays to the british audience; so all we have on full display here are the basic principles of consumer-driven marketing. buddyholly and jimnik should be pretty alright with this. ;)

I don't know why you fingered me, but:

I could not care less about who is on a poster for a movie I will never see. What piques my curiosity is the European contributors here that try to explain it in terms other than that the demographics obviously show it would play better in the cines if no black people are on the poster.

OK, that is just what you already said. Maybe we should wait for the German version.

Clydey
11-18-2009, 06:29 PM
Yet again more cries of racism from overly sensitive tools.

Will Smith isn't as popular in the UK. The Reason? Must be racism.

Simon Pegg isn't a box office star in the USA. I smell racism.

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 06:41 PM
Simon Pegg = Will Smith??

:lol: OK :yeah:

Jōris
11-18-2009, 06:56 PM
it's the core of capitalism, what's the big deal? people behind the scenes decided that having a poster without blacks sells the movie better than the original one as the revised one (apparently) plays to the british audience; so all we have on full display here are the basic principles of consumer-driven marketing. buddyholly and jimnik should be pretty alright with this. ;)

Agreed. Americans are more sensitive on racial issues and their black people may have more spending power than European blacks.

I don't know why you fingered me, but:

I could not care less about who is on a poster for a movie I will never see. What piques my curiosity is the European contributors here that try to explain it in terms other than that the demographics obviously show it would play better in the cines if no black people are on the poster.

OK, that is just what you already said. Maybe we should wait for the German version.

The waiting is over:

http://www.moviegod.de/images/movies/00030/2987/2987_xxl.jpg

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 06:56 PM
Yet again more cries of racism from overly sensitive tools.

Will Smith isn't as popular in the UK. The Reason? Must be racism.

Simon Pegg isn't a box office star in the USA. I smell racism.

Clydey, we've had many "interesting" discussions on race in the past, so let's talk :) I'd like to get your opinion on this. I'm not referring to this movie poster, but in general, do you believe that racism is real only if it's blatant? Like calling black people n!gger and restaurants denying service to people of color? Would you consider these to be racist acts:

- Someone is a store owner and they make it a habit to follow black customers around while not doing the same for white customers

- Dress up as a geisha or an "Indian" or in blackface as a Halloween costume

- Protest illegal immigration... only if it's Latinos and Hispanics doing the immigrating (a hot American debate I'm sure you're aware of)

- True story: a summer day camp for disadvantaged (black and latino) youth payed a local private club money to allow the kids to swim in their pool for a day. When they got there, club members (wealthy whites) asked, "What are they doing here? I'm scared they might hurt my children." And yanked their kids out of the water and left. The President of the club released a statement saying the kids swimming there "changed the complexion of the club".

- Say race-related remarks in front of white people that you wouldn't say in front of people of color

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 06:58 PM
Agreed. Americans are more sensitive on racial issues and their black people may have more spending power than European blacks.

Well, there are more blacks in power here and one is President :)

http://www.moviegod.de/images/movies/00030/2987/2987_xxl.jpg

That's so silly. An integral part of the film that involves ALL the couples and is the turning point in their relationships is based on the black girl. :o Ridiculous.

Purple Rainbow
11-18-2009, 07:03 PM
Simon Pegg = Will Smith??

:lol: OK :yeah:

:eek:

racist!

JolánGagó
11-18-2009, 07:05 PM
Well, there are more blacks in power here and one is President :)

Many more blacks there than here.

Jōris
11-18-2009, 07:13 PM
Well, there are more blacks in power here and one is President :)

There are probably much more black people in America than in European countries, hence they're targeted by industries more often.

That's so silly. An integral part of the film that involves ALL the couples and is the turning point in their relationships is based on the black girl. :o Ridiculous.

I don't see this as intended racism though, they only try to appeal to their market demographic.

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 07:28 PM
There are probably much more black people in America than in European countries, hence they're targeted by industries more often.



I don't see this as intended racism though, they only try to appeal to their market demographic.

I agree about the company's decision but the market's demographic is the question. If they don't want to see a movie if there are black people in it, is that racist? It's not as if this is a movie with hip hop or gangster culture, which wouldn't appeal to them, I agree. But this is a couple that could have been played by any actor of any race. I saw the movie. The guy just needed to be obese and the girl needed to look young to look like the character.

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 07:29 PM
Many more blacks there than here.

I don't what your "here" is. ;) :p

JolánGagó
11-18-2009, 07:29 PM
Would you consider these to be racist acts:

- Someone is a store owner and they make it a habit to follow black customers around while not doing the same for white customers

- Dress up as a geisha or an "Indian" or in blackface as a Halloween costume

- Protest illegal immigration... only if it's Latinos and Hispanics doing the immigrating (a hot American debate I'm sure you're aware of)

- True story: a summer day camp for disadvantaged (black and latino) youth payed a local private club money to allow the kids to swim in their pool for a day. When they got there, club members (wealthy whites) asked, "What are they doing here? I'm scared they might hurt my children." And yanked their kids out of the water and left. The President of the club released a statement saying the kids swimming there "changed the complexion of the club".

- Say race-related remarks in front of white people that you wouldn't say in front of people of color

Please define "racism".

JolánGagó
11-18-2009, 07:30 PM
I don't what your "here" is. ;) :p

Europe.

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 07:48 PM
Please define "racism".

Your own definition. What is racism to you and would you consider those to be racist acts? I'll give my own definition later.

Europe.

Specifically? I think you said you are from Spain?

JolánGagó
11-18-2009, 08:26 PM
Your own definition. What is racism to you and would you consider those to be racist acts? I'll give my own definition later.

I go through your list:

Would you consider these to be racist acts:

- Someone is a store owner and they make it a habit to follow black customers around while not doing the same for white customers

Impossible to say. Perhaps he's been robbed by a black person before, or his neighbor, or he read the stats about prison population, whatever, he might be just traumatized or simply experienced... or he could be a racist pig that just hates all blacks out of the blue or cuz his dad told him to :shrug:

- Dress up as a geisha or an "Indian" or in blackface as a Halloween costume

No.

- Protest illegal immigration... only if it's Latinos and Hispanics doing the immigrating (a hot American debate I'm sure you're aware of)

Impossible to say. Perhaps he's been robbed by a latino before, or his neighbor, or he read the stats about prison population, whatever, he might be just traumatized or simply experienced... or he could be a racist pig that just hates all Hispanics out of the blue or cuz his dad told him to :shrug:

- True story: a summer day camp for disadvantaged (black and latino) youth payed a local private club money to allow the kids to swim in their pool for a day. When they got there, club members (wealthy whites) asked, "What are they doing here? I'm scared they might hurt my children." And yanked their kids out of the water and left. The President of the club released a statement saying the kids swimming there "changed the complexion of the club".

Looks like, yep.

- Say race-related remarks in front of white people that you wouldn't say in front of people of color

Might be, not necessarily.


Specifically? I think you said you are from Spain?

yes, Spain. there are more blacks, absolutely and relatively, in the Us than in Spain and in Europe.

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 08:57 PM
Thank you for your honesty :) Regarding this:

Impossible to say. Perhaps he's been robbed by a latino before, or his neighbor, or he read the stats about prison population, whatever, he might be just traumatized or simply experienced... or he could be a racist pig that just hates all Hispanics out of the blue or cuz his dad told him to

Regarding this, the inability to separate one individual from his race/ethnic group is racist imo. If one black/latin person robs you, ALL of them will? You've heard this story from me before, I was almost molested by a black man, and even though it's had a huge impact on me, I don't look at all black men and see them as potential rapists. :shrug: In the US, a great majority of the serial killers are white. Is it alright for me to look at white people and see them all as potential serial killers? :shrug:

tangerine_dream
11-18-2009, 09:00 PM
Twitter's been a bastion of racial stereotyping these past few days. I've got my lifetime fill of the word "nigga". :o

BGT, I'm curious, are you on Twitter? If so, or even not, go check out the top trending topics #whitethoughts and #blackthoughts. Click through the comments. Are these racist? Maybe some but not all? I'll admit I laughed at a few:

#blackthoughts where the white women be at?
#whitethoughts there's too many black people here.

#whitethoughts OMG are those fireworks
#blackthoughts bitch they shooting!

I'm not trolling you at all btw, I genuinely want your opinion since you're one of the few who's outspoken on race issues.

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 09:05 PM
I'm not on Twitter tangy, but I'll check that out

EDIT: Ok, I found that, but I don't get it. Looks like nonsense :lol: Can you post anything specific?

tangerine_dream
11-18-2009, 09:11 PM
^^ All right, I'm ashamed to say I laughed at these:

#whitethoughts Aw man. I lost 2 followers today
#blackthoughts man fuck those 2 ppl who unfollowed me

#whitethoughts go sit in the corner!
#blackthoughts go get my belt!

#whitethoughts Lets find our babies name in a name book, Tyler.
#blackthoughts while at da clinic while goin thru a STD booklet Clamidia.

#whitethoughts I hope this doesn't make my butt look big
#blackthoughts I hope this make my ass look fat

#whitethoughts have a baby by me baby be a millionaire
#blackthoughts have a baby by me baby watch me disappear

habibko
11-18-2009, 09:12 PM
Thank you for your honesty :) Regarding this:



Regarding this, the inability to separate one individual from his race/ethnic group is racist imo. If one black/latin person robs you, ALL of them will? You've heard this story from me before, I was almost molested by a black man, and even though it's had a huge impact on me, I don't look at all black men and see them as potential rapists. :shrug: In the US, a great majority of the serial killers are white. Is it alright for me to look at white people and see them all as potential serial killers? :shrug:

it's hard to be racist against your own kind, ask me :shrug:

I'd view black people suspiciously if I was a shop owner and had multiple experiences with black gangsters from the hood, in which case the probability laws will tell me to expect trouble from black people more so than white people, this isn't racism, this is common sense.

another example, how Arabs and Muslims are treated in many countries including the USA, for example in airports etc, asking them more questions and personal interview requirements etc, in a way I find it offensive and somehow racist personally for me because I'm one of them, but can you really blame them? it's not all black and white (no pun intended).

Sjengster
11-18-2009, 09:14 PM
I don't know how on earth European audiences might perceive it as a "black film" (whatever that is exactly) when the black couple in question are barely even noticeable on the US poster. This decision speaks more for the tiny minds at the studio distributing the movie than for the prejudices of the audience. I had no idea Will Smith was the biggest box office draw in America BTW, and if his movies place lower in the rest of the world then it's an awfully big leap to immediately pin it on racism when there may be other factors involved.

JolánGagó
11-18-2009, 09:53 PM
Regarding this, the inability to separate one individual from his race/ethnic group is racist imo. If one black/latin person robs you, ALL of them will? You've heard this story from me before, I was almost molested by a black man, and even though it's had a huge impact on me, I don't look at all black men and see them as potential rapists. :shrug: In the US, a great majority of the serial killers are white. Is it alright for me to look at white people and see them all as potential serial killers? :shrug:

Is it alright for the old lady to grab her purse closer and cross the road when she sees two young blacks in getto gear approaching? I understand her impuls.

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 09:59 PM
^^ All right, I'm ashamed to say I laughed at these:

#whitethoughts Aw man. I lost 2 followers today
#blackthoughts man fuck those 2 ppl who unfollowed me

#whitethoughts go sit in the corner!
#blackthoughts go get my belt!

#whitethoughts Lets find our babies name in a name book, Tyler.
#blackthoughts while at da clinic while goin thru a STD booklet Clamidia.

#whitethoughts I hope this doesn't make my butt look big
#blackthoughts I hope this make my ass look fat

#whitethoughts have a baby by me baby be a millionaire
#blackthoughts have a baby by me baby watch me disappear

OK that's kinda funny :lol: I think it's making fun of stereotypes. Now if people believe that these stereotypes are true, that's something different.

it's hard to be racist against your own kind, ask me :shrug:

You can be a self-hating black person and hate black people simply because they're black. :shrug: You can be hispanic and hate all hispanics simply because they're hispanic. :shrug:

I'd view black people suspiciously if I was a shop owner and had multiple experiences with black gangsters from the hood, in which case the probability laws will tell me to expect trouble from black people more so than white people, this isn't racism, this is common sense.

But there's a difference between black gangster and black people. Not all black people are criminals just like not all Muslims are terrorists.

another example, how Arabs and Muslims are treated in many countries including the USA, for example in airports etc, asking them more questions and personal interview requirements etc, in a way I find it offensive and somehow racist personally for me because I'm one of them, but can you really blame them? it's not all black and white (no pun intended).

It's funny that you mention this. A blog I follow called "stuff white people do" mentions just that today. Here's an excerpt:

6. They assume that all Arabs are Muslim. I love this one. . . It never ceases to amaze me the blanket statements made about "that part of the world," and "their practices." Nevermind the native Coptic, Maronite, and Orthodox Christian populations, the converts, the Jews, the Druze, the Zoroastrians, the Baha'i. And if on the off chance you do meet someone who is aware of those other populations, they're still likely to try to convince you that they're those populations are all oppressed by the Muslims, anyway. Which brings me to my last and most important point. . .

7. They pretend it's not racism. So, Islam is not a race, and to many, "Arab" isn't either. . . It doesn't matter: there is plenty of evidence of racism against all of the aforementioned groups. In fact, there's significant evidence to suggest that systematic racism is practiced against Muslims and those with Muslim or Arab-sounding names (regardless of actual faith) in a number of places. This BBC article discusses the racist practice of not hiring Arabs and Muslims based on name alone (in France). Though I'm not aware of any study, I've seen the same happen in the U.S. And the exclusion of North Africans from being qualified as "African-American" on the census and on scholarship applications (again, they're supposed to check the "white" box) means they're doubly discriminated against: Not really white, but not non-white enough to benefit from certain programs.

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 10:02 PM
Is it alright for the old lady to grab her purse closer and cross the road when she sees two young blacks in getto gear approaching? I understand her impuls.

If she wants to assume all low-class blacks are criminals, let her. I'm sure that if they are criminals, it has more to do with their socio-economic status and less with their race. Besides, most crime perpetuated by blacks are to each other not little old white ladies :)

TMJordan
11-18-2009, 10:03 PM
I wanna know why black people always call eachother the n word but if a cracker does it they go ape shit. If it's so offensive why do you call eachother it?????

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 10:07 PM
I'm not trolling you at all btw, I genuinely want your opinion since you're one of the few who's outspoken on race issues.

Oh no problem. I am just fascinated by race and race relations and sterotypes. :) I wish there courses on it in my university, and I wish the different races were more willing to get to know each other. I grew up in a very diverse environment. I was friends with blacks, whites kids from China, South Korea, India, Bangladesh, Iran, Italy, South America. I went to school with Christians, Jews, Muslims, athiests and agnostics, a Catholic/Jew and a Catholic/Muslim (seriously! :lol: ) two of my best girl friends were Muslims who wore the veil. I was a member of the International Cultural Association and I loved seeing the Indian culture dance at their anuual showcase. So for me, it's so odd to see the black and white and Chinese and Indian and Muslim students separated. I'm not used to that at all. I just find culture and differences among race to be very interesting. :)

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 10:11 PM
I wanna know why black people always call eachother the n word but if a cracker does it they go ape shit. If it's so offensive why do you call eachother it?????

Tell me about it. I find that word offensive regardless of who says it. I can't even repeat it in my head or type it without feeling horrible. It makes people look very ignorant and idiotic, no matter their race. But ironically, the South Park episode "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson" is my favorite one. It's the one where Randy uses the n-word on Wheel of Fortune and he's known as "that n!gger guy". Man, that's funny :lol:

I'll give you a more complete answer as to why (at least, IMHO), when I get back from an errand in a few minutes. :)

TMJordan
11-18-2009, 10:14 PM
Oh yes, Naggers, of course.

habibko
11-18-2009, 10:14 PM
You can be a self-hating black person and hate black people simply because they're black. :shrug: You can be hispanic and hate all hispanics simply because they're hispanic. :shrug:

perhaps some can be, I can't see myself being that way though.

But there's a difference between black gangster and black people. Not all black people are criminals just like not all Muslims are terrorists.

sure! but in certain conditions it's more likely for criminals to be black people than other races, therefore that shop owner or the old lady with a purse aren't really racist with their reactions, they are just being careful/cautious and for a good reason, same goes with surveillance of long bearded Muslims attending all prayers in the mosque in the US, you can't really call this racism in my opinion.

however, labelling all Muslims terrorists and treating them as such, or the murder of Marwa "Veil Martyr" El-Sherbini, now this is racism showing its despicable head.

It's funny that you mention this. A blog I follow called "stuff white people do" mentions just that today. Here's an excerpt:

6. They assume that all Arabs are Muslim. I love this one. . . It never ceases to amaze me the blanket statements made about "that part of the world," and "their practices." Nevermind the native Coptic, Maronite, and Orthodox Christian populations, the converts, the Jews, the Druze, the Zoroastrians, the Baha'i. And if on the off chance you do meet someone who is aware of those other populations, they're still likely to try to convince you that they're those populations are all oppressed by the Muslims, anyway. Which brings me to my last and most important point. . .

7. They pretend it's not racism. So, Islam is not a race, and to many, "Arab" isn't either. . . It doesn't matter: there is plenty of evidence of racism against all of the aforementioned groups. In fact, there's significant evidence to suggest that systematic racism is practiced against Muslims and those with Muslim or Arab-sounding names (regardless of actual faith) in a number of places. This BBC article discusses the racist practice of not hiring Arabs and Muslims based on name alone (in France). Though I'm not aware of any study, I've seen the same happen in the U.S. And the exclusion of North Africans from being qualified as "African-American" on the census and on scholarship applications (again, they're supposed to check the "white" box) means they're doubly discriminated against: Not really white, but not non-white enough to benefit from certain programs.

nothing new, we all know racism exists against Arabs and Muslims.

Henry Chinaski
11-18-2009, 10:40 PM
I don't know how on earth European audiences might perceive it as a "black film" (whatever that is exactly) when the black couple in question are barely even noticeable on the US poster. This decision speaks more for the tiny minds at the studio distributing the movie than for the prejudices of the audience. I had no idea Will Smith was the biggest box office draw in America BTW, and if his movies place lower in the rest of the world then it's an awfully big leap to immediately pin it on racism when there may be other factors involved.

some sense.

I assume your use of "Europe" is merely apeing Tangy's absurd opening statement.

It's usually only paranoid americans who have a sense of a single pan-European perception on such matters.

I can't imagine anyone from any European country ever making statement regarding a Euro-wide opinion on race. Each country has its own unique experiences with racial issues and immigration.

And for what its worth I think the UK's black population must be among most integrated of any non-European group entering a European culture. What racial ill-feeling there is in the UK is almost exclusively directed against Asian/Muslims. You never hear even the most outspoken demagogues complain about Britain's Afro-Carribbean population. I don't know if it's because class conciousness is such a big thing among the English or what but the black v white obssession that you see in the US is almost entirely absent in English culture. Even the twitter stuff that Tangy posted. I couldn't imagine that kind of thing even being conceived by the average English person. There doesn't seem to be that kind of conciousness of black and white stereotypes there at all.

None of this is to say that there are no racists in England. I'm talking more on a political and popular culture level than anything. Which brings me back to your point and the issue at hand. I agree that it's the misguided perception of the films promoters rather than an accurate appraisal of audience wishes. I'd be more inclined to believe the latter in some other European countries but I'd be very surprised if it were the case in the UK.

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 10:57 PM
sure! but in certain conditions it's more likely for criminals to be black people than other races, therefore that shop owner or the old lady with a purse aren't really racist with their reactions, they are just being careful/cautious and for a good reason, same goes with surveillance of long bearded Muslims attending all prayers in the mosque in the US, you can't really call this racism in my opinion.

however, labelling all Muslims terrorists and treating them as such, or the murder of Marwa "Veil Martyr" El-Sherbini, now this is racism showing its despicable head.

(playing Devil's Advocate here) But, Muslims are the ones who flew planes into the Twin Towers and the suicide bombers are killing infidels in the name of Allah. How is that racist when, usually, terrorists are muslims (not Muslims are terrorists, totally different), but it's not racist to assume all black people will rob you?

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 10:59 PM
some sense.

I assume your use of "Europe" is merely apeing Tangy's absurd opening statement.

It's usually only paranoid americans who have a sense of a single pan-European perception on such matters.

I can't imagine anyone from any European country ever making statement regarding a Euro-wide opinion on race. Each country has its own unique experiences with racial issues and immigration.

And for what its worth I think the UK's black population must be among most integrated of any non-European group entering a European culture. What racial ill-feeling there is in the UK is almost exclusively directed against Asian/Muslims. You never hear even the most outspoken demagogues complain about Britain's Afro-Carribbean population. I don't know if it's because class conciousness is such a big thing among the English or what but the black v white obssession that you see in the US is almost entirely absent in English culture. Even the twitter stuff that Tangy posted. I couldn't imagine that kind of thing even being conceived by the average English person. There doesn't seem to be that kind of conciousness of black and white stereotypes there at all.

None of this is to say that there are no racists in England. I'm talking more on a political and popular culture level than anything. Which brings me back to your point and the issue at hand. I agree that it's the misguided perception of the films promoters rather than an accurate appraisal of audience wishes. I'd be more inclined to believe the latter in some other European countries but I'd be very surprised if it were the case in the UK.

I've never been to the UK, but that's the feeling I got when I studied in France this summer. Racism is not perpetuated against Black people but against Muslim/Arab and gypsy immigrants.

habibko
11-18-2009, 11:01 PM
(playing Devil's Advocate here) But, Muslims are the ones who flew planes into the Twin Towers and the suicide bombers are killing infidels in the name of Allah. How is that racist when, usually, terrorists are muslims (not Muslims are terrorists, totally different), but it's not racist to assume all black people will rob you?

yes these days usually terrorists are muslims that's why I understand the measures some governments take and don't label them as racism.

and in certain societies and cities robbers are usually black people (not all black people are robbers, same thing you did?), therefore the suspicion is totally justifiable, and not to be confused with racism.

~*BGT*~
11-18-2009, 11:03 PM
Oh yes, Naggers, of course.

"The question was, 'People who annoy you.'". :rolls: I've heard that they use it to bring the power back in their hands. If they can use the word with each other and use it in a friendly way, they hold the power. Which is absurd imo. It sounds similar to women who use the word bitch with their friends. Like, "Hey bitch!" That's silly to me. It's derogatory :o

Sjengster
11-19-2009, 01:22 AM
some sense.

I assume your use of "Europe" is merely apeing Tangy's absurd opening statement.

It's usually only paranoid americans who have a sense of a single pan-European perception on such matters.

I can't imagine anyone from any European country ever making statement regarding a Euro-wide opinion on race. Each country has its own unique experiences with racial issues and immigration.


Yes, I agree it's always irritating when people talk about a European attitude or European culture, as if it was one monolithic entity rather than many different ones. But even though levels of prejudice do vary from country to country, I'd still find it hard to believe that such prejudices would be roused by a black couple who are almost invisible on the poster itself. It just comes down to the bean-counting mentality of the studio, most likely; there are so many people of such a race in such a country, therefore we must show them only certain faces. If they really had an idea of what would be offensive to audiences then they would remove Vince Vaughn's face from every poster on both sides of the Atlantic, but alas, no such luck.

On a related note, it's astounding that tangerine can lift her arms to type at the keyboard, so gigantic is the chip on her shoulder about anti-Americanism.

safin-rules-no.1
11-19-2009, 07:00 AM
some sense.

I assume your use of "Europe" is merely apeing Tangy's absurd opening statement.

It's usually only paranoid americans who have a sense of a single pan-European perception on such matters.

I can't imagine anyone from any European country ever making statement regarding a Euro-wide opinion on race. Each country has its own unique experiences with racial issues and immigration.

And for what its worth I think the UK's black population must be among most integrated of any non-European group entering a European culture. What racial ill-feeling there is in the UK is almost exclusively directed against Asian/Muslims. You never hear even the most outspoken demagogues complain about Britain's Afro-Carribbean population. I don't know if it's because class conciousness is such a big thing among the English or what but the black v white obssession that you see in the US is almost entirely absent in English culture. Even the twitter stuff that Tangy posted. I couldn't imagine that kind of thing even being conceived by the average English person. There doesn't seem to be that kind of conciousness of black and white stereotypes there at all.

None of this is to say that there are no racists in England. I'm talking more on a political and popular culture level than anything. Which brings me back to your point and the issue at hand. I agree that it's the misguided perception of the films promoters rather than an accurate appraisal of audience wishes. I'd be more inclined to believe the latter in some other European countries but I'd be very surprised if it were the case in the UK.

Well said.

I've never been to the UK, but that's the feeling I got when I studied in France this summer. Racism is not perpetuated against Black people but against Muslim/Arab and gypsy immigrants.

You've never been to the UK and this comment should have ended there really :lol: Racism is perpetuated here against all 3 you mention - but i would say much less than many other European countries.

I'd also like to reiterate Henry Chinaski point - no two countries in Europe are the same or have the same problems, it is NOT the United States of Europe.

Midnight Ninja
11-19-2009, 12:00 PM
The US is actually pretty diverse for being just one country. I haven't travelled too much internally but you can notice quite a vast difference even between the major cities (NY, LA, Washington D.C.). Then there are entire blocks like New England, Mid-West, West, South.

I haven't witnessed racism in Boston really but was mugged at gun point by two black men (kids really probably no older than me). I don't think thats changed my outlook on racism but if I'm being honest, it does make me cautious when a certain stereotype goes by. The stereotype being based on appearance and demeanor rather than race.

~*BGT*~
11-19-2009, 02:50 PM
You've never been to the UK and this comment should have ended there really Racism is perpetuated here against all 3 you mention - but i would say much less than many other European countries.

I was talking about France. :confused: I mean, it was my experience there. I was only there for 6 weeks, but that's what I observed :shrug:

ad-out
11-19-2009, 03:45 PM
This whole thing is kind of silly, really.. So what if the marketing department for this movie decided it would sell more tickets in the UK if they left out the black couple. Would anyone say a word if they left out the white couples for the posters they showed in Harlem or any other predominately black commuity? I don't think so.. Would they hang a poster for a children's movie at a retirement center? How about a feel good chic flick in a sports bar?? Point is that (in the US anyway) people think that they have to be so PC that they walk on pins and needles for fear of upsetting certain minority groups. It's absurd given the progress this country has made. For goodness sakes we have a black President! There is no reason to look for something that is not there IMO.. ;)

tangerine_dream
11-19-2009, 04:33 PM
Soccer is a perfect example of Europe's blatant racism. This kind of abusive, barbaric behavior is still going on now. No way would this happen in the US, and if it did, you can be sure nobody would get away with it without being fined, sanctioned, fired, publicly humiliated with scarlet letter, etc.

Thank God America is still relatively soccer-free. Hopefully we never host the World Cup again.

jwpO-nnFY9g

Bilbo
11-19-2009, 04:43 PM
Soccer is a perfect example of Europe's blatant racism. This kind of abusive, barbaric behavior is still going on now. No way would this happen in the US, and if it did, you can be sure nobody would get away with it without being fined, sanctioned, fired, publicly humiliated with scarlet letter, etc.

Thank God America is still relatively soccer-free. Hopefully we never host the World Cup again.

posts like this show why americans are not integrated around the world.

how often have you left your country yet, tangy? i guess not even once.

MJ angel
11-19-2009, 04:55 PM
yes these days usually terrorists are muslims that's why I understand the measures some governments take and don't label them as racism.

and in certain societies and cities robbers are usually black people (not all black people are robbers, same thing you did?), therefore the suspicion is totally justifiable, and not to be confused with racism.


I totally agree .

Just like 99,99% of serial psychopath killers according to studies are white people all over the world ...its normal to not let your daughter or yourself near a white man , all white men are potentially murderers its well known ...

ad-out
11-19-2009, 05:19 PM
Just curious Tangy - are you from the US and if so why do you have the flag from Scotland?

Jōris
11-19-2009, 08:26 PM
I agree about the company's decision but the market's demographic is the question. If they don't want to see a movie if there are black people in it, is that racist? It's not as if this is a movie with hip hop or gangster culture, which wouldn't appeal to them, I agree. But this is a couple that could have been played by any actor of any race. I saw the movie. The guy just needed to be obese and the girl needed to look young to look like the character.

People who like Vince Vaughn movies are probably racists and uneducated certainly, but I assume it's something less drastical with this case. African black American music is widely absorbed by Europeans, the marketeers either got the market wrong or left them out because older generations may find black Americans difficult to relate to.

Clydey
11-19-2009, 09:23 PM
Clydey, we've had many "interesting" discussions on race in the past, so let's talk :) I'd like to get your opinion on this. I'm not referring to this movie poster, but in general, do you believe that racism is real only if it's blatant? Like calling black people n!gger and restaurants denying service to people of color? Would you consider these to be racist acts:

- Someone is a store owner and they make it a habit to follow black customers around while not doing the same for white customers

- Dress up as a geisha or an "Indian" or in blackface as a Halloween costume

- Protest illegal immigration... only if it's Latinos and Hispanics doing the immigrating (a hot American debate I'm sure you're aware of)

- True story: a summer day camp for disadvantaged (black and latino) youth payed a local private club money to allow the kids to swim in their pool for a day. When they got there, club members (wealthy whites) asked, "What are they doing here? I'm scared they might hurt my children." And yanked their kids out of the water and left. The President of the club released a statement saying the kids swimming there "changed the complexion of the club".

- Say race-related remarks in front of white people that you wouldn't say in front of people of color

Racism needn't be blatant, no. However, people are too quick to point towards racism.

Let me ask you a question now. Do you think only white people are capable of racism? White people are constantly subjected to subtle forms of racism. Racism exists everywhere. People from all walks of life are racist. Even affirmative action is inherently racist. It's an attempt to remove one form of racism by replacing it with another. It completely undermines the idea that we live in a meritocracy.

And yes, I would consider 1, 3, and 4 as forms of prejudice.

~*BGT*~
11-19-2009, 09:27 PM
This whole thing is kind of silly, really.. So what if the marketing department for this movie decided it would sell more tickets in the UK if they left out the black couple. Would anyone say a word if they left out the white couples for the posters they showed in Harlem or any other predominately black commuity? I don't think so.. Would they hang a poster for a children's movie at a retirement center? How about a feel good chic flick in a sports bar?? Point is that (in the US anyway) people think that they have to be so PC that they walk on pins and needles for fear of upsetting certain minority groups. It's absurd given the progress this country has made. For goodness sakes we have a black President! There is no reason to look for something that is not there IMO.. ;)

That doesn't mean anything. There's going to be a KKK rally at the Ole Miss/LSU game this weekend, and they're going to be in their white robes. Thank goodness I won't be there. I the sight of that would literally bring me to tears, and I hardly ever cry. We are not in a post-racial society, culture or nation. There's still blatant racism going on and even worse, institutionalized racism is still rampant. Electing President Obama has not changed that.

There is no reason to look for something that is not there IMO

It's called privilege. Of course you can't see it ;) Seriously though, www.derailingfordummies.com is a great website for anyone to read :)

buddyholly
11-19-2009, 09:39 PM
posts like this show why americans are not integrated around the world.

how often have you left your country yet, tangy? i guess not even once.

Posts like yours actually show very well why the guy in the video said that Europeans are in denial. The neo-Nazism that exists throughout Europe is way more developed than anything that happens in the US. Would you care to say why that post shows why Americans are not integrated around the world (whatever that means.)?

Don't know about tangy but I have travelled the world. Where've you been? considering that you think it important, you owe us a resume? (Watching the Simpsons does not qualify for an insight into the US culture.)

Action Jackson
11-19-2009, 09:49 PM
Racism exists everywhere, just the amount varies, yes this includes institutional, casual everyday racism, discrimination in the housing and employment markets. In some cases it's outright and in others it's very subtle.

No one ethnicity, skin colour, tribal group or religious group has the monopoly on being the victim or being the actor.

Clydey
11-19-2009, 09:54 PM
Racism exists everywhere, just the amount varies, yes this includes institutional, casual everyday racism, discrimination in the housing and employment markets. In some cases it's outright and in others it's very subtle.

No one ethnicity, skin colour, tribal group or religious group has the monopoly on being the victim or being the actor.

A potential thread ender right there.

tangerine_dream
11-19-2009, 10:01 PM
Another post for BGT :wavey: Do you plan to see the movie "Precious"? I think I'm going to see that movie next week with a friend. I found this interesting take on it:

http://racerelations.about.com/b/2009/11/08/what-precious-means-for-race-relations.htm

In the case of "Precious," critics not only fear that the film will lead to racial stereotyping but that it constitutes "poverty porn." This refers to films that cater to privileged moviegoers who get off on taking in images of poor people in desperate situations. After watching such cinema, the privileged feel like better people just for having seen the film but do nothing to make change in the world they've witnessed on screen.

In a New York Times Magazine interview, director Lee Daniels confessed that he worried about screening "Precious" for a European audience.

"To be honest, I was embarrassed to show this movie at Cannes," he said. "I didn't want to exploit black people. And I wasn't sure I wanted white French people to see our world."

He added, however, that because the world now has a black role model in Barack Obama, a story such as "Precious" can be shared without fear of racial backlash. I don't agree with this, considering that Obama is likely viewed by those in the U.S. and outside of it as the exception rather than the rule as far as African Americans go.
Can't say I don't blame the guy. :ignore:

Where've you been? considering that you think it important, you owe us a resume? (Watching the Simpsons does not qualify for an insight into the US culture.)
:lol:

buddyholly
11-19-2009, 10:03 PM
White people are constantly subjected to subtle forms of racism.

I think a lot of colleges in the US changed the names of their sports teams because they insulted Native Americans.

I wonder what luck I would have in court if I sued Notre Dame for calling their team the Fighting Irish, thus demeaning Irish men everywhere (well, some of us.)

~*BGT*~
11-19-2009, 10:11 PM
Bear with me, this is an unintentional long post :)

Racism needn't be blatant, no. However, people are too quick to point towards racism.

Let me ask you a question now. Do you think only white people are capable of racism?

For the most part, yes. For me, it's a simple equation: racism = prejudice + power. Minorities can be prejudcied of course. My oldest brother, who is 40, hates white people. Straight up, he does. My father as well. For most of their childhoods, adolescences, and into adulthood, they have had nothing but horrible and racist interactions with white people. In fact, at one time, my brother stopped using white sugar in his coffee and replaced it with brown sugar. :lol: He's prejudiced against white people. However, he can't do anything with that prejudice.

On the other hand, if you have the power to oppress and discriminate and marginalise the people you are prejudiced against, that is racism. In most societies, white people are the ones who run the government (nationally and locally), run the corporations, run the court house, run the hospitals, run the local businesses... mostly everything. If you have the power to enact legislature against people you are prejudiced against (and benefit from it as well), that is racist. If you are a doctor and offer better treatment to white patients than to minority patients because you assume they don't know any better, that is racism. If you are prejudiced against the people in power, that is simply prejudice because you can't do anything about it.

Even during apartheid in South Africa, whites were the racial minority, but they still held all the power!

White people are constantly subjected to subtle forms of racism. Racism exists everywhere. People from all walks of life are racist. Even affirmative action is inherently racist. It's an attempt to remove one form of racism by replacing it with another. It completely undermines the idea that we live in a meritocracy.

And yes, I would consider 1, 3, and 4 as forms of prejudice.

IMO, AA isn't reverse racism/discrimination, but it removes race from the table. It's called white privilege. You are born bascially "ahead in the race" simply because you are white. You are seen as inherently more intelligent, competent and capable just because of the color of your skin, whereas minorites (especially those who work in corporate settings) are not. They are seen as being unqualified because they are a minority working in a mostly white organization.

Has it ever occured to you that a lot of white people (especially men) got where they are because of THEIR race? :shrug: Because being white is seen as being inherently better? Besides, white women are the ones who benefit the most from AA. Perhaps they're the ones taking your jobs ;)

There's a blog I like to read called stuff white people do. I think it's pretty interesting. One topic from last year was called ironically resent affirmative action. And aren't you special? I remembered it and went lookng for it just for you :p

----------------------

It's been rumored that Senator Obama did not include his race on his application to Harvard Law School, but it's probable that at least a few of his classmates would have assumed that his place came to him because he was, in the words of Stephen L. Carter's book title, an affirmative-action baby. That's another weight that successful black Americans carry, the suspicion that they got to wherever they've gone because of special pleadings. Of course there is also affirmative action for well-to-do whites, from legacy college admissions to the old boys' club of hiring and connections. Somehow this is never thought to be the same.



--Anna Quindlen,
"The Caucasian Card"



Among the four leading candidates in America’s upcoming general election, two are considered “history making,” merely because of who they happen to be in biological terms—Barack Obama because he’s not white and Sarah Palin because she’s a woman. Although they share minority status in the political realm, and despite the fact that Palin is the directly hand-picked selection, Obama is much more likely to be thought of and labeled, and thus denigrated, as an “affirmative action candidate.” This is because so many white people naively associate affirmative action with black people, even though the majority of its recipients have been and are white.

In fact, the primary beneficiaries of preferential programs in America have been white women, resulting in the irony of white women repeatedly voting against affirmative action when it appears as a ballot issue. They often do so because they think of it as a black thing, but in the process, they're actually voting against their own interests.

As Luke Harris, a political science professor at Vassar College puts it, “If you look at who voted against affirmative action in the states, you will see that it is mainly White women. That is odd because studies have consistently shown that White women are the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action.”

John McCain clearly selected Sarah Palin instead of other, more qualified candidates largely because she’s a woman. As Jeff Fecke points out, “Palin isn’t ready for the vice presidency. And she wouldn’t have been selected if she was Steve Palin, radical anti-choice first-term governor of Alaska.”

----------------

And another related article from this past Veteran's Day about the GI Bill. If you are not aware of it, it was a bill signed after WWII to allow veterans to assimilate by paying for their college education.

----------------------

The GI Bill of Rights . . . is arguably the most massive affirmative action program in American history. It was created to develop needed labor force skills and to provide those who had them with a lifestyle that reflected their value in the economy.

The GI benefits that were ultimately extended to 16 million GIs (of the Korean War as well) included


priority in jobs -- that is, preferential treatment, but no one objected to it then
financial support during the job search
small loans for starting up businesses
and most important, low-interest home loans and educational benefits, which included tuition and living expenses.
This legislation was rightly regarded as one of the most revolutionary postwar programs. I call it affirmative action because it was aimed at and disproportionately helped male, Euro-origin GIs. . . .

The reason I refer to educational and occupational GI benefits as affirmative action programs for white males is because they were decidedly not extended to African Americans nor to women of any race. Theoretically they were available to all veterans; in practice, women and black veterans did not get anywhere near their share. . . .

During and after the war, there was an upsurge in white racist violence against black servicemen, in public schools, and by the Ku Klux Klan. It spread to California and New York. The number of lynchings rose during the war, and in 1943 there were anti-black riots in several large northern cities. Although there was a wartime labor shortage, black people were discriminated against when it came to well-paid defense industry jobs and housing. In 1946, white riots against African Americans occurred across the South and in Chicago and Philadelphia.

Gains made as a result of the wartime civil rights movement, especially in defense-related employment, were lost with peacetime conversion, as black workers were the first to be fired, often in violation of seniority. White women were also laid off, ostensibly to make room for jobs for demobilized servicemen, and in the long run women lost most of the gains they had made in wartime. . . .

Black GIs faced discrimination in the educational system as well. Despite the end of restrictions on Jews and other Euro-ethnics, African Americans were not welcome in white colleges. Black colleges were overcrowded, and the combination of segregation and prejudice made for few alternatives. About 20,000 black veterans attended college by 1947, most in black colleges, but almost as many, 15,000, could not gain entry. Predictably, the disproportionately few African Americans who did gain access to their educational benefits were able, like their white counterparts, to become doctors and engineers, and to enter the black middle class. . . .

Karen Brodkin's explanation of the racist effects of the GI Bill -- one among many examples of a long and ongoing history of affirmative action for whites -- is the best and clearest I've read so far. What I find especially valuable is how she illuminates the construction of some of the deeper underpinnings of "institutionalized racism," a reality that many white Americans seem to find too abstract to keep firmly in mind. Thanks to the generational transference of these benefits, the lives of vast numbers of white Americans continue to be buoyed up by the effects of the GI Bill; also, like other white privileges, this array of advantages has come at the ongoing expense of non-white Americans.

----------------------

One last thing, I can promise you that blacks and latinos/hispanics are well aware of the notion that if they are in higher education or in a well paying job, they only got it because of their race and not because of their ability. Because of that, they work that much harder to perfect themselves because they know if they make a mistake, they won't be given a second chance. They will be seen as an unqualified minority instead of an individual who made a mistake. They (myself included) live by the mantra, "You have to work twice as hard to be seen as half as good."

Sorry for the veeeeeeeeeeeery long post but I wanted to give you (and anyone else interested) a thorough response.

Clydey
11-19-2009, 10:15 PM
I think a lot of colleges in the US changed the names of their sports teams because they insulted Native Americans.

I wonder what luck I would have in court if I sued Notre Dame for calling their team the Fighting Irish, thus demeaning Irish men everywhere (well, some of us.)

Very little luck, I'd imagine. I don't understand why certain sections of society are so niggardly when it comes to sharing out the blame for racism.

Clydey
11-19-2009, 10:20 PM
Bear with me, this is an unintentional long post :)



For the most part, yes. For me, it's a simple equation: racism = prejudice + power. Minorities can be prejudcied of course. My oldest brother, who is 40, hates white people. Straight up, he does. My father as well. For most of their childhoods, adolescences, and into adulthood, they have had nothing but horrible and racist interactions with white people. In fact, at one time, my brother stopped using white sugar in his coffee and replaced it with brown sugar. :lol: He's prejudiced against white people. However, he can't do anything with that prejudice.

On the other hand, if you have the power to oppress and discriminate and marginalise the people you are prejudiced against, that is racism. In most societies, white people are the ones who run the government (nationally and locally), run the corporations, run the court house, run the hospitals, run the local businesses... mostly everything. If you have the power to enact legislature against people you are prejudiced against (and benefit from it as well), that is racist. If you are a doctor and offer better treatment to white patients than to minority patients because you assume they don't know any better, that is racism. If you are prejudiced against the people in power, that is simply prejudice because you can't do anything about it.

Even during apartheid in South Africa, whites were the racial minority, but they still held all the power!



IMO, AA isn't reverse racism/discrimination, but it removes race from the table. It's called white privilege. You are born bascially "ahead in the race" simply because you are white. You are seen as inherently more intelligent, competent and capable just because of the color of your skin, whereas minorites (especially those who work in corporate settings) are not. They are seen as being unqualified because they are a minority working in a mostly white organization.

Has it ever occured to you that a lot of white people (especially men) got where they are because of THEIR race? :shrug: Because being white is seen as being inherently better? Besides, white women are the ones who benefit the most from AA. Perhaps they're the ones taking your jobs ;)

There's a blog I like to read called stuff white people do. I think it's pretty interesting. One topic from last year was called ironically resent affirmative action. And aren't you special? I remembered it and went lookng for it just for you :p

----------------------

It's been rumored that Senator Obama did not include his race on his application to Harvard Law School, but it's probable that at least a few of his classmates would have assumed that his place came to him because he was, in the words of Stephen L. Carter's book title, an affirmative-action baby. That's another weight that successful black Americans carry, the suspicion that they got to wherever they've gone because of special pleadings. Of course there is also affirmative action for well-to-do whites, from legacy college admissions to the old boys' club of hiring and connections. Somehow this is never thought to be the same.



--Anna Quindlen,
"The Caucasian Card"



Among the four leading candidates in America’s upcoming general election, two are considered “history making,” merely because of who they happen to be in biological terms—Barack Obama because he’s not white and Sarah Palin because she’s a woman. Although they share minority status in the political realm, and despite the fact that Palin is the directly hand-picked selection, Obama is much more likely to be thought of and labeled, and thus denigrated, as an “affirmative action candidate.” This is because so many white people naively associate affirmative action with black people, even though the majority of its recipients have been and are white.

In fact, the primary beneficiaries of preferential programs in America have been white women, resulting in the irony of white women repeatedly voting against affirmative action when it appears as a ballot issue. They often do so because they think of it as a black thing, but in the process, they're actually voting against their own interests.

As Luke Harris, a political science professor at Vassar College puts it, “If you look at who voted against affirmative action in the states, you will see that it is mainly White women. That is odd because studies have consistently shown that White women are the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action.”

John McCain clearly selected Sarah Palin instead of other, more qualified candidates largely because she’s a woman. As Jeff Fecke points out, “Palin isn’t ready for the vice presidency. And she wouldn’t have been selected if she was Steve Palin, radical anti-choice first-term governor of Alaska.”

----------------

And another related article from this past Veteran's Day about the GI Bill. If you are not aware of it, it was a bill signed after WWII to allow veterans to assimilate by paying for their college education.

----------------------

The GI Bill of Rights . . . is arguably the most massive affirmative action program in American history. It was created to develop needed labor force skills and to provide those who had them with a lifestyle that reflected their value in the economy.

The GI benefits that were ultimately extended to 16 million GIs (of the Korean War as well) included


priority in jobs -- that is, preferential treatment, but no one objected to it then
financial support during the job search
small loans for starting up businesses
and most important, low-interest home loans and educational benefits, which included tuition and living expenses.
This legislation was rightly regarded as one of the most revolutionary postwar programs. I call it affirmative action because it was aimed at and disproportionately helped male, Euro-origin GIs. . . .

The reason I refer to educational and occupational GI benefits as affirmative action programs for white males is because they were decidedly not extended to African Americans nor to women of any race. Theoretically they were available to all veterans; in practice, women and black veterans did not get anywhere near their share. . . .

During and after the war, there was an upsurge in white racist violence against black servicemen, in public schools, and by the Ku Klux Klan. It spread to California and New York. The number of lynchings rose during the war, and in 1943 there were anti-black riots in several large northern cities. Although there was a wartime labor shortage, black people were discriminated against when it came to well-paid defense industry jobs and housing. In 1946, white riots against African Americans occurred across the South and in Chicago and Philadelphia.

Gains made as a result of the wartime civil rights movement, especially in defense-related employment, were lost with peacetime conversion, as black workers were the first to be fired, often in violation of seniority. White women were also laid off, ostensibly to make room for jobs for demobilized servicemen, and in the long run women lost most of the gains they had made in wartime. . . .

Black GIs faced discrimination in the educational system as well. Despite the end of restrictions on Jews and other Euro-ethnics, African Americans were not welcome in white colleges. Black colleges were overcrowded, and the combination of segregation and prejudice made for few alternatives. About 20,000 black veterans attended college by 1947, most in black colleges, but almost as many, 15,000, could not gain entry. Predictably, the disproportionately few African Americans who did gain access to their educational benefits were able, like their white counterparts, to become doctors and engineers, and to enter the black middle class. . . .

Karen Brodkin's explanation of the racist effects of the GI Bill -- one among many examples of a long and ongoing history of affirmative action for whites -- is the best and clearest I've read so far. What I find especially valuable is how she illuminates the construction of some of the deeper underpinnings of "institutionalized racism," a reality that many white Americans seem to find too abstract to keep firmly in mind. Thanks to the generational transference of these benefits, the lives of vast numbers of white Americans continue to be buoyed up by the effects of the GI Bill; also, like other white privileges, this array of advantages has come at the ongoing expense of non-white Americans.

----------------------

One last thing, I can promise you that blacks and latinos/hispanics are well aware of the notion that if they are in higher education or in a well paying job, they only got it because of their race and not because of their ability. Because of that, they work that much harder to perfect themselves because they know if they make a mistake, they won't be given a second chance. They will be seen as an unqualified minority instead of an individual who made a mistake. They (myself included) live by the mantra, "You have to work twice as hard to be seen as half as good."

Sorry for the veeeeeeeeeeeery long post but I wanted to give you (and anyone else interested) a thorough response.

Normally I'm all for a healthy debate, but there's no way I'm going to read all of that. :lol:

I appreciate the time it took you to write that post, so I skimmed through it. Rather than not address what you said properly, I won't address those points at all. Nothing worse than someone who doesn't read a post properly responding and unintentionally creating a straw man.

And by the way, I was talking about affirmative action as a legal requirement, as opposed to someone simply choosing to hire someone of a particular race, gender, etc. of their own free will.

~*BGT*~
11-19-2009, 10:22 PM
Another post for BGT :wavey: Do you plan to see the movie "Precious"? I think I'm going to see that movie next week with a friend. I found this interesting take on it:

http://racerelations.about.com/b/2009/11/08/what-precious-means-for-race-relations.htm

In the case of "Precious," critics not only fear that the film will lead to racial stereotyping but that it constitutes "poverty porn." This refers to films that cater to privileged moviegoers who get off on taking in images of poor people in desperate situations. After watching such cinema, the privileged feel like better people just for having seen the film but do nothing to make change in the world they've witnessed on screen.

In a New York Times Magazine interview, director Lee Daniels confessed that he worried about screening "Precious" for a European audience.

"To be honest, I was embarrassed to show this movie at Cannes," he said. "I didn't want to exploit black people. And I wasn't sure I wanted white French people to see our world."

He added, however, that because the world now has a black role model in Barack Obama, a story such as "Precious" can be shared without fear of racial backlash. I don't agree with this, considering that Obama is likely viewed by those in the U.S. and outside of it as the exception rather than the rule as far as African Americans go.
Can't say I don't blame the guy. :ignore:


:lol:

Probably not, but not because of the reasons given by the director. I usually like to enjoy myself at the movies. So I don't see sad or scary movies, usually comedies. Hence the reason I went and saw Couples Retreat this past weekend and not 2012. :) I can see why the director thinks that. It is also interested that some of the most critically acclaimed "black" movies and black roles have shown black people in a struggle. Terrence Howard as a pimp turned rapper in Hustle and Flow and Halle Berry being in a relationship with the prison guard who executed her husband. The Blind Side has also had similar criticism.

The films that show black people and black culture in a more postive matter usually don't perform as well. Tyler Perry's movies have done ver well, but his comedies with Madea (Madea Goes to Jail) usually outperform the more serious movies like The Family that Preys or Why Did I Get Married?. It's very interesting.

Let me know what you think of the movie. :wavey:

~*BGT*~
11-19-2009, 10:29 PM
Normally I'm all for a healthy debate, but there's no way I'm going to read all of that. :lol:

I appreciate the time it took you to write that post, so I skimmed through it. Rather than not address what you said properly, I won't address those points at all. Nothing worse than someone who doesn't read a post properly responding and unintentionally creating a straw man.

And by the way, I was talking about affirmative action as a legal requirement, as opposed to someone simply choosing to hire someone of a particular race, gender, etc. of their own free will.

Understandable :lol: I am a life long writer and if given a topic I am very interested in, no one can stop me. :lol: I think legal AA is a way of giving the opportunity to the people who wouldn't have that opportunity given to them if the employer hired people on their own volition. Because if they were, chances are they'd be more likely to hire someone who looked like them regardless of that person's qualifications. Kind of like placing people on a more balanced scale :)

For the record, I didn't place my race on my college application or on any of the scholarships I receive. I got in because I had an A+ average in a high school ranked in the top 10% in the nation and I get the scholarships because I just that good :cool:

~*BGT*~
11-19-2009, 10:59 PM
Clydey, basically the gist of what I'm saying is that racism = prejudice + power. The people who hold the power in the society are the only ones who can be truly racist because they can actually do something with that prejudice. And AA exists in response to the silent preference to whites when hiring or accepting people to college.

Action Jackson
11-19-2009, 11:03 PM
Clydey, basically the gist of what I'm saying is that racism = prejudice + power. The people who hold the power in the society are the only ones who can be truly racist because they can actually do something with that prejudice. And AA exists in response to the silent preference to whites when hiring or accepting people to college.

Not always the case, especially when it comes to people and groups at the lower end of the scale competing for jobs and resources, when they are not part of the dominant group. It's not like this has not happened in history or currently between various immigrant groups within society.

Clydey
11-19-2009, 11:16 PM
Clydey, basically the gist of what I'm saying is that racism = prejudice + power. The people who hold the power in the society are the only ones who can be truly racist because they can actually do something with that prejudice. And AA exists in response to the silent preference to whites when hiring or accepting people to college.

It's not the case that only one group holds the power, though. There are plenty of black people in power. Need I even bring up the most obvious example?

There should be no such thing as a legal requirement to hire someone because of the colour of their skin. That is institutionalised racism. I don't see how anyone can argue that it's right to pass over the best man/woman for the job simply because they do not have the required skin colour.

Action Jackson
11-19-2009, 11:24 PM
It's not the case that only one group holds the power, though. There are plenty of black people in power. Need I even bring up the most obvious example?

There should be no such thing as a legal requirement to hire someone because of the colour of their skin. That is institutionalised racism. I don't see how anyone can argue that it's right to pass over the best man/woman for the job simply because they do not have the required skin colour.

It shouldn't have to be like that, but I can see why it happens. Even now with these laws in place there are still discrimination cases, some because they need a certain amount of people from particular groups, in the workplace.

In theory it should be the best person for the job irrespective of ethnic, religious or gender, but it's not always the case is it. Put in a situation out of 10 times, a black guy, Native and a white person all with the same qualifications for the job, the white one will get it the majority of the time. That's just the way it is.

Clydey
11-19-2009, 11:29 PM
It shouldn't have to be like that, but I can see why it happens. Even now with these laws in place there are still discrimination cases, some because they need a certain amount of people from particular groups, in the workplace.

In theory it should be the best person for the job irrespective of ethnic, religious or gender, but it's not always the case is it. Put in a situation out of 10 times, a black guy, Native and a white person all with the same qualifications for the job, the white one will get it the majority of the time. That's just the way it is.

I don't disagree with you. However, I don't think the solution is to reverse the situation and institutionalise it. I think that's a step in the wrong direction.

Action Jackson
11-19-2009, 11:37 PM
I don't disagree with you. However, I don't think the solution is to reverse the situation and institutionalise it. I think that's a step in the wrong direction.

Well it was instutionalised initially, through differing ways and the dominant ideology and power structures aren't going to change for a long time. There had to be a certain amount of initial tokenism to get it rolling, but that time has passed now and now it should be done based on merit.

The other side is now, with the subtle forms of racism, it's a lot harder to prove whether they were discriminated against when it came not to getting that job, promotion, the bank wouldn't give them a loan etc,

Henry Chinaski
11-20-2009, 01:15 AM
I agree with the gist of BGT's and AJs posts.

Jobs and promotions are regularly given out on informal aliances and tenuous links to those in power. Someone putting a word in for you in other words. Members of the dominant race or class are simply more likely to have links and are therefore at a distinct advantage in the jobs market. It's particularly pronounced when it comes to new immigrants. They just don't have the contacts. We like to think we live in a complete meritocracy but everyone knows that if you can call in a favour and get a helping hand then you've got the edge on the competition. I'm sure most of us have experienced this first hand whether it be to our detriment or benefit.

Larry David nailed it in an episode of Curb. He was hiring someone but opted for someone who had a tenuous connection to his wife rather than the qualified black girl he had worked with before. The latter accused him of racism but I guess the point was that even though he wasn't motivated by race at all the result would've been the same even if he had been. Black girl was at a disadvantage. I'd wager that that kind of banal process is a bigger factor than actual racism when it comes to denying minority groups a real equal opportunity.

Having said that, I have serious problems with affirmative action. It can't be good for the esteem of minority employees. No matter how qualified they are there must be moments of self doubt and suspicion that they aren't there on merit.
It also gives disaffected white people a reason to be pissed even in cases where they have no right to be. A guy just out of prison could lose out to a black guy with a phd when looking for a job and the chances are that he'll still assume the only reason he was turned down is that he was white.

It's amazing how often you hear such conspiracy stories even in Ireland and the UK where discrimination, regardless of whether it be positive is illegal.

If someone called me a white **** or whatever I'd just be baffled. The term just doesn't carry any weight or historical significance. It's of course very different for say a white kid who is in the minority group of an inner city school but in the grand scheme of things almost all discrimination against white adults is largely irrelevant.

Action Jackson
11-20-2009, 02:38 AM
The classic case of affirmative action. In South Africa there were quotas for black and mixed race players in the cricket squad. Luckily Ntini and Gibbs were good enough to make it on their merits, but the top brass interfered and pulled out a white player to make way for one of the minority players to be in the squad. Needless to say it caused an outrage and that particular player who was called up would have doubts being accepted by his peers, due to being political interference.

Meritocracies are great in theory, but not the reality.

~*BGT*~
11-20-2009, 02:54 AM
It's not the case that only one group holds the power, though. There are plenty of black people in power. Need I even bring up the most obvious example?

President Obama is ONE person. :lol: When I say power, I mean the CEO's, the executives, the college professors, the police officers, the judges. Most of the time, they are white. There is one black, one latina and one woman on the US Supreme Court. When Sonia Sotomoyor says that her experience as a latina makes her more qualified than white men in making some decisions, she's correct.

There should be no such thing as a legal requirement to hire someone because of the colour of their skin. That is institutionalised racism.

Yeah, people should be judged by the content of their resume and the quality of their references. But the only way for to happen is if racism and prejudice and discrimination is eliminated. That will never happen.

I don't see how anyone can argue that it's right to pass over the best man/woman for the job simply because they do not have the required skin colour.

What do you think has been happening to minorities since... forever? :lol:

Clydey
11-20-2009, 04:16 AM
I agree with the gist of BGT's and AJs posts.

Jobs and promotions are regularly given out on informal aliances and tenuous links to those in power. Someone putting a word in for you in other words. Members of the dominant race or class are simply more likely to have links and are therefore at a distinct advantage in the jobs market. It's particularly pronounced when it comes to new immigrants. They just don't have the contacts. We like to think we live in a complete meritocracy but everyone knows that if you can call in a favour and get a helping hand then you've got the edge on the competition. I'm sure most of us have experienced this first hand whether it be to our detriment or benefit.

Larry David nailed it in an episode of Curb. He was hiring someone but opted for someone who had a tenuous connection to his wife rather than the qualified black girl he had worked with before. The latter accused him of racism but I guess the point was that even though he wasn't motivated by race at all the result would've been the same even if he had been. Black girl was at a disadvantage. I'd wager that that kind of banal process is a bigger factor than actual racism when it comes to denying minority groups a real equal opportunity.

Having said that, I have serious problems with affirmative action. It can't be good for the esteem of minority employees. No matter how qualified they are there must be moments of self doubt and suspicion that they aren't there on merit.
It also gives disaffected white people a reason to be pissed even in cases where they have no right to be. A guy just out of prison could lose out to a black guy with a phd when looking for a job and the chances are that he'll still assume the only reason he was turned down is that he was white.

It's amazing how often you hear such conspiracy stories even in Ireland and the UK where discrimination, regardless of whether it be positive is illegal.

If someone called me a white **** or whatever I'd just be baffled. The term just doesn't carry any weight or historical significance. It's of course very different for say a white kid who is in the minority group of an inner city school but in the grand scheme of things almost all discrimination against white adults is largely irrelevant.

That's what bothers me. I couldn't care less if someone called me a white **** either, but you'll get crucified for calling someone a black ****. There is no difference between them other than how they are perceived.

The example that springs to mind is when Trevor MacDonald called Bernard Manning a "fat, white bastard" after he had died. Fair enough, Bernard Manning was a ****, but the point is that no one batted an eyelid when Trevor MacDonald said that. You could only get away with saying that about a white guy. Can you imagine the reaction if Jon Snow called Trevor MacDonald a "fat, black bastard"? He'd be hung, drawn, and quartered.

There's a startling lack of consistency that most people don't seem to pick up on. Those are mostly the people who rely on the tabloids to form their opinions for them, though.

Clydey
11-20-2009, 04:31 AM
President Obama is ONE person. :lol: When I say power, I mean the CEO's, the executives, the college professors, the police officers, the judges. Most of the time, they are white. There is one black, one latina and one woman on the US Supreme Court. When Sonia Sotomoyor says that her experience as a latina makes her more qualified than white men in making some decisions, she's correct.



Yeah, people should be judged by the content of their resume and the quality of their references. But the only way for to happen is if racism and prejudice and discrimination is eliminated. That will never happen.



What do you think has been happening to minorities since... forever? :lol:

So the solution is to make employers legally required to hire minorities regardless of whether or not they are right for the job?

I resent the idea that only white people can be racist. It is the biggest load of nonsense I have ever heard. A lot of minorities appear oblivious to how racist they can be simply because people are too scared to say anything. There seems to be this unspoken rule that black on white racism is alright because of slavery. We're still apologising for that, even though no one living on the planet today played any part in in it. How fucked up is it that our Prime Minister was pressured to apologise for slavery?

I'm almost desensitised to racism now. I recognise it when it happens, but I simply don't care anymore unless it is overt. I've seen black on white racism go unacknowledged too many times and I'm tired of being expected to repent for racist crimes from the past, which I played no part in.

~*BGT*~
11-20-2009, 05:05 AM
So the solution is to make employers legally required to hire minorities regardless of whether or not they are right for the job?

What is the solution to the unspoken "rule" of hiring whites regardless of whether or not they are right for the job?

I resent the idea that only white people can be racist. It is the biggest load of nonsense I have ever heard. A lot of minorities appear oblivious to how racist they can be simply because people are too scared to say anything. There seems to be this unspoken rule that black on white racism is alright because of slavery. We're still apologising for that, even though no one living on the planet today played any part in in it. How fucked up is it that our Prime Minister was pressured to apologise for slavery?

I'm almost desensitised to racism now. I recognise it when it happens, but I simply don't care anymore unless it is overt. I've seen black on white racism go unacknowledged too many times and I'm tired of being expected to repent for racist crimes from the past, which I played no part in.

Did you not read my spiel on racism vs prejudice? :confused:

Clydey
11-20-2009, 05:22 AM
What is the solution to the unspoken "rule" of hiring whites regardless of whether or not they are right for the job?

Whatever the solution is, it certainly should not be discrimination as a legal requirement.

MJ angel
11-20-2009, 08:30 AM
Whatever the solution is, it certainly should not be discrimination as a legal requirement.
In advance SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH .


All the solutions had been used . First meritocracy ,the ideal solution , failed miserably .. . Only affirmative action has been , if not perfect , the most effective solution so far.

You cant just stand here and say " whatever the solution but not affirmative action " and remain crossed arms there while minorities suffer badly from discrimination ,if you dont agree then find THE solution right now .. .

...therefore until you find this solution or something better turns up , i am afraid to say that affirmation action is the best solution for minorities so far :shrug:

Clydey
11-20-2009, 11:07 AM
In advance SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH .


All the solutions had been used . First meritocracy ,the ideal solution , failed miserably .. . Only affirmative action has been , if not perfect , the most effective solution so far.

You cant just stand here and say " whatever the solution but not affirmative action " and remain crossed arms there while minorities suffer badly from discrimination ,if you dont agree then find THE solution right now .. .

...therefore until you find this solution or something better turns up , i am afraid to say that affirmation action is the best solution for minorities so far :shrug:

It's not just about minorities. It's also about the people who are potentially being screwed out of a job.

Action Jackson
11-20-2009, 11:28 AM
It's not just about minorities. It's also about the people who are potentially being screwed out of a job.

Well not all people are equal you know this, think about it when a person is a member of the dominant ideology and are in better positions because of class and economic background, that these people tend to be of the same ethnicity or cultural group.

As racism is not going to go away and meritocracies don't exist, only in theory they do.

It's like I said before, I refuse to believe that only white people can be racist, it's shit and I have seen more than enough examples of other groups displaying racist and xenophobic behaviour, and they had very good tans.

Clydey
11-20-2009, 11:34 AM
Well not all people are equal you know this, think about it when a person is a member of the dominant ideology and are in better positions because of class and economic background, that these people tend to be of the same ethnicity or cultural group.

As racism is not going to go away and meritocracies don't exist, only in theory they do.

It's like I said before, I refuse to believe that only white people can be racist, it's shit and I have seen more than enough examples of other groups displaying racist and xenophobic behaviour, and they had very good tans.

I just think it's a horrible solution. In many ways, it actually breeds resentment and exacerbates the problem.

Action Jackson
11-20-2009, 11:46 AM
I just think it's a horrible solution. In many ways, it actually breeds resentment and exacerbates the problem.

The problem isn't going to go away, there are more than enough individuals that will blame their own inadequacies on other groups of people different from them. This is like saying all whites are racists, then you get the recruiters for the far right who see white kids being ostracised and like any gang who want recruit, they use the tactics to convince them that, the reason you are in this situation is because of people like this (they get this and that, while you get nothing and it's because of your race).

So what do you do, when meritocracies don't exist, the steps and hoops are harder and higher for the person from the minority background on the average to get through.

Even in societies with very little immigration there is racism and discrimination, the main difference between them and multicultural ones are the way it's applied.

~*BGT*~
11-20-2009, 02:21 PM
It's not just about minorities. It's also about the people who are potentially being screwed out of a job.

If they are unqualified, they aren't getting screwed out of anything.

It's like I said before, I refuse to believe that only white people can be racist, it's shit and I have seen more than enough examples of other groups displaying racist and xenophobic behaviour, and they had very good tans.

I'll have to use prejudice and racism interchangeably here. Minorities can be racist. Of course they can. I just believe that in a sense, white racism is worse because they hold the power. It's one thing to hate people because of their race, but if you hate them AND you have the power as police officers, business owners, corporate CEO's, judges, politicians... you can actually do things because of your racism. Whereas in most socities, minorities don't hold the power, so basically, they can hate you, but they can't do anything about it.

buddyholly
11-20-2009, 02:49 PM
When Sonia Sotomoyor says that her experience as a latina makes her more qualified than white men in making some decisions, she's correct.





I don't recall the correct words, but didn't she say her experience as a latina makes her more qualified than white men to make decisions?

And even if she said what you reported, some decisions, then the conclusion would be that white men are more qualified to make most decisions.

JolánGagó
11-20-2009, 03:15 PM
Affirmative action is donkey dung, nuff said for the time being.

tangerine_dream
11-20-2009, 03:21 PM
When Sonia Sotomoyor says that her experience as a latina makes her more qualified than white men in making some decisions, she's correct.
She certainly wasn't qualified when she dismissed those white firefighter's lawsuit (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/29/AR2009062901608.html) in New Haven. Thankfully, the firefighters were eventually vindicated.

momo_momo
11-20-2009, 07:39 PM
Racism = something the world doesn't dispose of even it is of 'constant change'.

Action Jackson
11-21-2009, 01:25 AM
I'll have to use prejudice and racism interchangeably here. Minorities can be racist. Of course they can. I just believe that in a sense, white racism is worse because they hold the power. It's one thing to hate people because of their race, but if you hate them AND you have the power as police officers, business owners, corporate CEO's, judges, politicians... you can actually do things because of your racism. Whereas in most socities, minorities don't hold the power, so basically, they can hate you, but they can't do anything about it.

There are many ways of doing things through racist behaviours that don't need to be through institutionalised channels. It's like any society the dominant ideology sets the tone and they tend to be of the same ethnicity and the ones that have made it through that, who aren't of that stock, have been deemed good enough through talent, financial background or manipulation.

Other groups can do plenty of things about it, what gang and criminal activity between various ethnic groups attempting to get a slice of the organised crime, yes they can't do anything about it.

Jōris
11-22-2009, 09:02 AM
They all look the same to me. Vince Vaughn movies.

ad-out
11-23-2009, 04:35 PM
What is the solution to the unspoken "rule" of hiring whites regardless of whether or not they are right for the job?


Why in the world would you think that this is still an unspoken rule? People now deserve more credit than you give. Yes, there is still racism of all kinds all over the world but the idea that, without AA, all jobs would go to white men is ridiculous. AA is an outdated and completely discriminatory law. And I am saying that having probably benefited from it since I am a female working in a predominately male field. It's total BS that a company is not able to hire the most qualified candidate for a job because they have to meet legal quotas for minorities. Same goes for college applicants. Why not take the top SAT scores, high school grades, extra curricular activities, etc. and let those candidates in - regardless of sex/race? You don't see college sports teams saying that the race ratio has to be equal do you? How about the NFL/NBA? I would hate to see the backlash if a top black player missed out on the draft because they had to give the position to a white guy.. It's a total double standard - and for females also. Why should medical/law schools have to pass over great male candidates in order to try to populate the fields with more women? All people are not equal in their abilities/talents/intelligence. Why do we have to overlook this in order to create a totally "PC" world?

MJ angel
11-23-2009, 05:28 PM
Why in the world would you think that this is still an unspoken rule? People now deserve more credit than you give. Yes, there is still racism of all kinds all over the world but the idea that, without AA, all jobs would go to white men is ridiculous. AA is an outdated and completely discriminatory law. And I am saying that having probably benefited from it since I am a female working in a predominately male field. It's total BS that a company is not able to hire the most qualified candidate for a job because they have to meet legal quotas for minorities. Same goes for college applicants. Why not take the top SAT scores, high school grades, extra curricular activities, etc. and let those candidates in - regardless of sex/race? You don't see college sports teams saying that the race ratio has to be equal do you? How about the NFL/NBA? I would hate to see the backlash if a top black player missed out on the draft because they had to give the position to a white guy.. It's a total double standard - and for females also. Why should medical/law schools have to pass over great male candidates in order to try to populate the fields with more women? All people are not equal in their abilities/talents/intelligence. Why do we have to overlook this in order to create a totally "PC" world?


Wasnt it the case BEFORE the affirmative action ...?

tangerine_dream
11-23-2009, 05:42 PM
Getting back to my original point,

http://www.theroot.com/blogs/vince-vaughn-couples-retreat/only-super-negro-sells-movie-tix-europe
What does Europe have against black actors?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/28/movies/28color.html?_r=3
Films With Black Stars Seek to Break International Barriers
"Only recently have movies begun to crack one of Hollywood's most troubling and least openly discussed problems: an international "color line" behind which films relying on black stars often do not perform well. The box office prowess of "Dreamgirls" overseas will help signal whether this newfound success is fleeting or more lasting.

"I always call international the new South," said Reginald Hudlin, the director of "House Party" and "The Ladies Man" and now the entertainment president of BET Networks, where he oversees television and feature film operations. "In the old days, they told you black films don't travel down South. Now they say it's not going to travel overseas."

Most Hollywood executives, producers and analysts interviewed for this article delicately maintained that the resistance to black performers abroad had had less to do with bigotry than with the international audience’s lack of experience with the humor or urban situations that figure in many of their films. Some in the industry, though, were more blunt.

"The international marketplace is still fairly racist," said James Ulmer, proprietor of the Ulmer Scale, which compiles input from about 100 international film professionals in a periodic rating of stars' "bankability." In Mr. Ulmer’s rating, Will Smith, the highest-ranked black star, placed No. 12 over all last year, behind Tom Cruise, Tom Hanks, Jim Carrey and others, notwithstanding industry chatter that has often tagged Mr. Smith as the biggest star today."

http://popwatch.ew.com/2007/03/01/why_arent_afric/
Why aren't African-American movie stars as popular abroad?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/filmblog/2007/mar/02/whydreamgirlsisntracingup
Why Dreamgirls isn't racing up the global box-office chart
"Hollywood marketing departments are finding it very hard to persuade international audiences to watch films with black stars."

Wasnt it the case BEFORE the affirmative action ...?
So if you think AA were removed then the world would go back to its old ways? I don't think I buy that. Obama was elected President without the benefit of AA, he got in there on his own merit, and the only way he could be President is if a majority of white people voted for him, which they did. This is strong proof that most American caucasians are not as racist as many seem to believe.

The true diehard racists like KKK, separatists, etc. are small numbers of people who hold no position of power in today's society.

ad-out
11-23-2009, 07:44 PM
Wasnt it the case BEFORE the affirmative action ...?

Perhaps it was the case 50 years ago but I would like to believe that the world has changed since then. Regardless it is still wrong to force race/sex quotas on businesses and Universities.

MJ angel
11-23-2009, 08:45 PM
Perhaps it was the case 50 years ago but I would like to believe that the world has changed since then. Regardless it is still wrong to force race/sex quotas on businesses and Universities.

300 years of slavery , segregation and discrimination , 50 years of AA.. you would have the feeling that mentalities have realy changed , but then again you realise that still in 2009 black actors are removed from movies because white people dont identify themselves in them .... i am not that optimistic than you are ...

This post was also for tangui.

ad-out
11-23-2009, 09:03 PM
What does slavery have to do with this? People of all races have been enslaved throughout the course of history - not just blacks in this country. Slavery was abolished in 1865 so what relevance could that possibly have on the fairness of AA? Slavery was wrong and discrimination and segregation are wrong - both against minorities and for minorities through special rights and privileges that whites do not receive.

MJ angel
11-23-2009, 09:20 PM
So if you think AA were removed then the world would go back to its old ways? I don't think I buy that. Obama was elected President without the benefit of AA, he got in there on his own merit, and the only way he could be President is if a majority of white people voted for him, which they did. This is strong proof that most American caucasians are not as racist as many seem to believe.

Obama is one person out of 36 million of black people ...i dont buy this "Obama thing ..then there is no more racism ..." , 50 years after the beginning of the AA , black people still at the lower positions of the society , cf statistics.. .

It seems that "The old days " still have beautiful days before them..


The true diehard racists like KKK, separatists, etc. are small numbers of people who hold no position of power in today's society.

Do you realy think that people need , or needed to take part of the KKK or some of those small separatists groups to be racists ..come on ! dont be naive people ... ( it is not nasty ) .

MJ angel
11-23-2009, 09:34 PM
What does slavery have to do with this? People of all races have been enslaved throughout the course of history - not just blacks in this country. Slavery was abolished in 1865 so what relevance could that possibly have on the fairness of AA? Slavery was wrong and discrimination and segregation are wrong - both against minorities and for minorities through special rights and priviledges that whites do not receive.


History shapes mentalities .

Slavery , segregation and discrimination have a heavy part in the US history therefore in american mentalities , way of thinking and way of life ... the AA is one of the consequences of History , a lot lot white people still think today that black people are inferiors to white , where do you think this theory come from ..? isnt it History ..?

You cant be against or in favor a concept if dont analyse all sides of this concept , why this concept , where the idea comes from ..you cant denied a concept only because you are against it , you have to analyse it , understand it and eventualy find another solution .


"minorities have priviledges that white people dont have " ,this sentence is compltely false , things are not that simple they are more complex ...

So far AA has been the most effective solution to make the society more fair , you can contribute to a better world if you have a better idea , everybody is waiting for this ..for the moment nobdy has found better ..

ad-out
11-23-2009, 09:52 PM
"minorities have privileges that white people dont have " ,this sentence is compltely false , things are not that simple they are more complex ...



You misquoted me. I said that minorities receive special rights and privileges through programs that are not available to white people. This is a fact. I personally resent that and it is an entirely different concept to talk about people in general who are born with "privilege". That is not a race issue and no government program can change the fact that certain people are born into better situations than others - or are born with more talent/brain power/athleticism/etc. It is the way of the world.

~*BGT*~
11-23-2009, 09:57 PM
MJ angel :worship:

MJ angel
11-23-2009, 10:08 PM
You misquoted me. I said that minorities receive special rights and privileges through programs that are not available to white people. This is a fact. I personally resent that and it is an entirely different concept to talk about people in general who are born with "privilege". That is not a race issue and no government program can change the fact that certain people are born into better situations than others - or are born with more talent/brain power/athleticism/etc. It is the way of the world.


A "priviledge" is something added to a person or a group of people to be superior or to have a better status than another leaving on the base that all people are equal...Have you realy got the feeling that black people are superior or have better status than white people today because of AA...? if you think that then check your statistics ... and come back to me .

Beyong that , i think you dont get the meaning of AA..


I would have liked you give more precisons concerning your last sentence about the brain/power etc... .

ad-out
11-24-2009, 03:01 PM
A "priviledge" is something added to a person or a group of people to be superior or to have a better status than another leaving on the base that all people are equal...Have you realy got the feeling that black people are superior or have better status than white people today because of AA...? if you think that then check your statistics ... and come back to me .
Beyong that , i think you dont get the meaning of AA..
I would have liked you give more precisons concerning your last sentence about the brain/power etc... .

I do not believe that any person is superior to another. I do believe that minorities have been given special rights because of their race or sex. How else would you describe the quotas placed on businesses and Universities? Why should someone have the "right" to a certain job or spot just because he/she is of a particular minority group? How is it fair that the most qualified candidate - black, white, male, female, latino, etc - does not receive the job unless all minority quotas have already been met in a company? It is not. Would you want a surgeon performing your operation if he/she was only let into medical school to fill a mandated spot? What if you were the most deserving candidate for a job based on experience, education, etc but you did not receive it because they needed to hire a female. The list goes on and on.

I'm not sure what you mean about more "precisions". Surely you would not disagree that some people are born with talents for certain things more than others. All people are not born of the same intelligence or physical prowess. This is just a fact of life.

tangerine_dream
11-24-2009, 03:12 PM
Obama is one person out of 36 million of black people ...i dont buy this "Obama thing ..then there is no more racism ..." , 50 years after the beginning of the AA , black people still at the lower positions of the society , cf statistics.. .
Obama holds the most powerful position in the US. That says enough. Do you really believe that if white people thought that blacks were inferior to them that a majority whites would have voted for an inferior black man to hold the most powerful role in our country? I don't think so. Where are Europe's black leaders, if they're so much better than us? I don't see any. Maybe the US isn't such a bad place for black people after all.

And I never said that racism was "cured" now that Obama was Prez, I'm merely stating a fact that not all white people are racist, contrary to your belief. Keep in mind that two and a half generations were born after the civill rights era and these people grew up with the notion that blacks were equal, with lots of positive black role models both on TV and in their lives.

JolánGagó
11-24-2009, 03:18 PM
AA is as despicable and discriminatory as any other racist policy. It's delicious sarcasm of the highest and most delicate order to put in place an obviously racist policy with the declared goal of fighting racism :haha:

MJ angel
11-24-2009, 06:52 PM
Obama holds the most powerful position in the US. That says enough. Do you really believe that if white people thought that blacks were inferior to them that a majority whites would have voted for an inferior black man to hold the most powerful role in our country? I don't think so. Where are Europe's black leaders, if they're so much better than us? I don't see any. Maybe the US isn't such a bad place for black people after all.

And I never said that racism was "cured" now that Obama was Prez, I'm merely stating a fact that not all white people are racist, contrary to your belief. Keep in mind that two and a half generations were born after the civill rights era and these people grew up with the notion that blacks were equal, with lots of positive black role models both on TV and in their lives.



I didnt say that all white people are racists .
I didnt say that USA is a bad place to live .

.. and i think no defenser of AA say that , even if full of white people (as i read on this board ) consider as non racist something which is obviously racist like " it is not racist to say that black people are dangerous so it is normal to fear them and avoid some streets " .

USA and EUROPE have not the same History concerning black people and minorities . Black people living in the USA have been Uprooted , most of them (95%) dont even know the country of their ancestors , and their African names . As a consequence they are assimilated as "NATIVE AMERICANS" .

Black people in Europe and other big minorities like Arabs immigrated in the late 60's to work during the Prosperity era , because of bad economical conditions in their own countries , most of them decided to stay and got married , it is like 3 generations of immagrants living in Europe mostly in France and UK .
They know the history of their ancestors , they kept their African names , their native languages , their African culture, they go back to their home country every hollydays ... they are not assimilated as " NATIVE EUROPEANS" , and most of them dont even feel European , they are mainly there because of economical reasons .

You cant compare the 2 situations , EUROPE has always been white from the beginning , there is not a history of colonialism in EUROPE . So i think it is a bit normal that in a country where 95% of NATIVE people , given the history of this continent , are white , most power positions are owned by white people , in Africa most power positions are owned by Black people even if you can evocate the post colonialism and "false independance" , but this is another story...

OBAMA is president yes ..but the statistics show that still the group of people at the lower positions of the American society is Black people , how do you explain that ...? i can give the benefit of the doubt , after all OBAMA has been there only for 1 year ..we will see what happen in 4 years ...

Statistics are the only base we can measure a phenomenon, and right now i am afraid that they confirm my thoughts .

MJ angel
11-24-2009, 07:18 PM
[QUOTE=ad-out;9348778]I do not believe that any person is superior to another. I do believe that minorities have been given special rights because of their race or sex. How else would you describe the quotas placed on businesses and Universities? Why should someone have the "right" to a certain job or spot just because he/she is of a particular minority group? How is it fair that the most qualified candidate - black, white, male, female, latino, etc - does not receive the job unless all minority quotas have already been met in a company? It is not. Would you want a surgeon performing your operation if he/she was only let into medical school to fill a mandated spot? What if you were the most deserving candidate for a job based on experience, education, etc but you did not receive it because they needed to hire a female. The list goes on and on.

I agree with you , in an ideal world things have to be like that ..but unfortunately some people decided it is not like that and prefered opressing a group of humans for them to be a different race ...then action /reaction ... .

I'm not sure what you mean about more "precisions". Surely you would not disagree that some people are born with talents for certain things more than others. All people are not born of the same intelligence or physical prowess. This is just a fact of life.[/QUOTE

Yes i agree .

The governement cant change this fact and didnt try in my opinion . But they tried to make people understand that "talents and no talents " belongs to all ethnic groups ..not only one ...

ad-out
11-24-2009, 07:21 PM
USA and EUROPE have not the same History concerning black people and minorities . Black people leaving in the USA have been Uprooted , most of them (95%) dont even know the country of their ancestors , and their African names . As a consequence they are assimilated as "NATIVE AMERICANS" .

Almost all people in the US technically come from other countries if you want go back generations. Only true Native American Indians are real "North Americans". I personally only know the countries of a few of my ancestors so I don't think this is really such a big deal.

..but the statistics show that still the group of people at the lower positions of the American society is Black people , how do you explain that ...?

What do you mean by "lower positions"? Lower paying jobs? Not all poor people in the US are black. My local McDonalds is filled with workers all races of people. And if they want to go to college to improve their positions they can get a government loan and enroll anytime. It's about improving your position yourself and not thinking that the government owes you something because of something that happened over a century ago.

~*BGT*~
11-24-2009, 07:24 PM
Obama holds the most powerful position in the US. That says enough. Do you really believe that if white people thought that blacks were inferior to them that a majority whites would have voted for an inferior black man to hold the most powerful role in our country? I don't think so. Where are Europe's black leaders, if they're so much better than us? I don't see any. Maybe the US isn't such a bad place for black people after all.

And I never said that racism was "cured" now that Obama was Prez, I'm merely stating a fact that not all white people are racist, contrary to your belief. Keep in mind that two and a half generations were born after the civill rights era and these people grew up with the notion that blacks were equal, with lots of positive black role models both on TV and in their lives.

I see a LOT more negative images of blacks in entertainment and in the media than positive. I also think President Obama is one of the most disrespected presidents in history in terms of what he's actually done to deserve said disrespect.

~*BGT*~
11-24-2009, 07:28 PM
Almost all people in the US technically come from other countries if you want go back generations. Only true Native American Indians are real "North Americans". I personally only know the countries of a few of my ancestors so I don't think this is really such a big deal.



What do you mean by "lower positions"? Lower paying jobs? Not all poor people in the US are black. My local McDonalds is filled with workers all races of people. And if they want to go to college to improve their positions they can get a government loan and enroll anytime. It's about improving your position yourself and not thinking that the government owes you something because of something that happened over a century ago.

At least you know that. Most black people with direct African ancestry (not West Indian or Caribbean) have no clue where they come from. Entire generations have been lost in history due to an inability to record them. I only know my family tree through my grandparents. :shrug:

~*BGT*~
11-24-2009, 07:32 PM
From Psychology Today (http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200304/discrimination-latisha)

Job applicants with African-American sounding names are far less likely to get a callback as are similarly qualified "white" candidates, according to researchers at the University of Chicago and MIT, who submitted 5,000 bogus resumes in response to job ads. Half the resumes bore stereotypical African-American names such as Latonya and Tyrone; half sported traditionally Anglo names like Kristin and Brad.

Candidates with Caucasian-sounding names were contacted more frequently than those with a presumed ethnic identity and identical resumes. That is, 10 percent of those with typically white names were called back, compared to just 6.7 percent with black-sounding names. Some names may be especially unpalatable for employers: Tamika was called back 5 percent of the time; Aisha, a scant 2 percent.

Marianne Bertrand, a professor at the University of Chicago, also found that highly qualified "black" candidates had no advantage over their less qualified black peers, but "white" candidates' odds of an interview skyrocketed with increased skills.

MJ angel
11-24-2009, 07:44 PM
Almost all people in the US technically come from other countries if you want go back generations. Only true Native American Indians are real "North Americans". I personally only know the countries of a few of my ancestors so I don't think this is really such a big deal.


Being Uprooted is not a big deal..? not knowing the rest of your present familly is not a big deal..? well i dont know what to say then... .
And how can you compare the history of white people in USA who volunteered to immigrate and history of black people who were forced , Uprooted and enslaven... i think you try to make the two situations equal and i realy realy dont agree ..


What do you mean by "lower positions"? Lower paying jobs? Not all poor people in the US are black. My local McDonalds is filled with workers all races of people. And if they want to go to college to improve their positions they can get a government loan and enroll anytime. It's about improving your position yourself and not thinking that the government owes you something because of something that happened over a century ago.

I dont think that they think the governement owes them something because of the slavery , but your point is a good point , but only explains the 3rd of the reasons .

ad-out
11-24-2009, 07:53 PM
Being Uprooted is not a big deal..? not knowing the rest of your present familly is not a big deal..? well i dont know what to say then... .
And how can you compare the history of white people in USA who volunteered to immigrate and history of black people who were forced , Uprooted and enslaven... i think you try to make the two situations equal and i realy realy dont agree ..

OK perhaps it is important to many black Americans to know where their ancestors were born and lived. I should not have made the assumption that it was not a big deal. I'm not sure how this relates to AA though.


I dont think that they think the governement owes them something because of the slavery , but your point is a good point , but only explains the 3rd of the reasons .

What do you mean?

MJ angel
11-25-2009, 09:33 AM
OK perhaps it is important to many black Americans to know where their ancestors were born and lived. I should not have made the assumption that it was not a big deal. I'm not sure how this relates to AA though.


If you dont follow the debate and connect it with the AA ...then it's not my fault ..


What do you mean?

That it isnt the main reason , even if it is an element to take into consideration..

MJ angel
11-25-2009, 09:59 AM
From Psychology Today (http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200304/discrimination-latisha)

Job applicants with African-American sounding names are far less likely to get a callback as are similarly qualified "white" candidates, according to researchers at the University of Chicago and MIT, who submitted 5,000 bogus resumes in response to job ads. Half the resumes bore stereotypical African-American names such as Latonya and Tyrone; half sported traditionally Anglo names like Kristin and Brad.

Candidates with Caucasian-sounding names were contacted more frequently than those with a presumed ethnic identity and identical resumes. That is, 10 percent of those with typically white names were called back, compared to just 6.7 percent with black-sounding names. Some names may be especially unpalatable for employers: Tamika was called back 5 percent of the time; Aisha, a scant 2 percent.

Marianne Bertrand, a professor at the University of Chicago, also found that highly qualified "black" candidates had no advantage over their less qualified black peers, but "white" candidates' odds of an interview skyrocketed with increased skills.


And it is a 2009 study , with the new generation and all..? i thought "the old days" were over ..?!

Jōris
11-25-2009, 11:02 AM
Getting back to my original point,

http://www.theroot.com/blogs/vince-vaughn-couples-retreat/only-super-negro-sells-movie-tix-europe
What does Europe have against black actors?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/28/movies/28color.html?_r=3
Films With Black Stars Seek to Break International Barriers
"Only recently have movies begun to crack one of Hollywood's most troubling and least openly discussed problems: an international "color line" behind which films relying on black stars often do not perform well. The box office prowess of "Dreamgirls" overseas will help signal whether this newfound success is fleeting or more lasting.

"I always call international the new South," said Reginald Hudlin, the director of "House Party" and "The Ladies Man" and now the entertainment president of BET Networks, where he oversees television and feature film operations. "In the old days, they told you black films don't travel down South. Now they say it's not going to travel overseas."

Most Hollywood executives, producers and analysts interviewed for this article delicately maintained that the resistance to black performers abroad had had less to do with bigotry than with the international audience’s lack of experience with the humor or urban situations that figure in many of their films. Some in the industry, though, were more blunt.

"The international marketplace is still fairly racist," said James Ulmer, proprietor of the Ulmer Scale, which compiles input from about 100 international film professionals in a periodic rating of stars' "bankability." In Mr. Ulmer’s rating, Will Smith, the highest-ranked black star, placed No. 12 over all last year, behind Tom Cruise, Tom Hanks, Jim Carrey and others, notwithstanding industry chatter that has often tagged Mr. Smith as the biggest star today."

http://popwatch.ew.com/2007/03/01/why_arent_afric/
Why aren't African-American movie stars as popular abroad?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/filmblog/2007/mar/02/whydreamgirlsisntracingup
Why Dreamgirls isn't racing up the global box-office chart
"Hollywood marketing departments are finding it very hard to persuade international audiences to watch films with black stars."

These articles insinuate I can determine my racist percentage by analysing my viewing history of Will Smith movies.

Wikipedia lists 19 boxoffice films featuring Will Smith. I've seen 4 of them or 21%, which reveals I'm 79% racist according to the Will Smith American Racism Calculation Standard. I guess that must mean I'm a racist. I will fill out my application to the KKK before the day is over.

Castafiore
11-25-2009, 12:16 PM
^ Solid line of thinking.

I score 47% on this Will Smith American Racism Calculation Standard. I'm guessing that this result still makes me a racist European? I won't bother with the KKK membership . I'll just join one of our European white supremacy clubs.

When looking at Denzel Washington movies, I score 65% wich amounts to 35% on a Denzel Washington Racism Calculation Standard. Perhaps this is too high for those clubs. :scratch:

Decisions, decisions.

Action Jackson
11-25-2009, 12:21 PM
^ Solid line of thinking.

I score 47% on this Will Smith American Racism Calculation Standard. I'm guessing that this result still makes me a racist European? I won't bother with the KKK membership . I'll just join one of our European white supremacy clubs.

When looking at Denzel Washington movies, I score 65%. Perhaps this is too high for those clubs. :scratch:

Decisions, decisions.

Vlaams Blok needs you.

Jōris
11-25-2009, 12:30 PM
^ Solid line of thinking.

I score 47% on this Will Smith American Racism Calculation Standard. I'm guessing that this result still makes me a racist European? I won't bother with the KKK membership . I'll just join one of our European white supremacy clubs.

When looking at Denzel Washington movies, I score 65%. Perhaps this is too high for those clubs. :scratch:

Decisions, decisions.

Will Smith is a scientologist. European white supremacists groups focus on Muslims and Joos.

I didn't realise Denzel Washington is black, how embarrassing that is, a Euro racist liking a black actor. I must say, Denzel really is a good actor for a negro.

Castafiore
11-25-2009, 12:42 PM
It's Vlaams Belang these days, George. Not Vlaams Blok.
I have issues with het Vlaams Belang, though. They want women pretty much to go back a few centuries and to honor and obey their husbands while staying at home, have lots of babies, cook and clean and be obedient and meek. That's pushing it a bit since I don't think that I have this in me.

Will Smith is a scientologist. European white supremacists groups focus on Muslims and Joos.
Will Smith is a scientologist?

Jōris
11-25-2009, 01:00 PM
Will Smith is a scientologist?

If you skim his wiki entry really fast it appears he's a scientologist. But if you read it slowly then it shows he's a Christian with an interest in Scientology.

ad-out
11-25-2009, 01:37 PM
If you dont follow the debate and connect it with the AA ...then it's not my fault ....

Hey, no reason to be rude - I thought we were playing nice here with a "friendly" debate. ;)

But if you are saying that AA is some sort of payback for families of slaves who lost their ancestry, then I guess I just don't agree with that. Perhaps someone somewhere did something horrible to my ancestors several hundred years ago and now I can benefit? :D

MJ angel
11-25-2009, 01:51 PM
Hey, no reason to be rude - I thought we were playing nice here with a "friendly" debate. ;)

But if you are saying that AA is some sort of payback for families of slaves who lost their ancestry, then I guess I just don't agree with that. Perhaps someone somewhere did something horrible to my ancestors several hundred years ago and now I can benefit? :D


You can benefit if those same people keep on doing the same things they made to your ancestors hundred years after...


Sorry for being rude ..

ad-out
11-25-2009, 02:03 PM
MJ - I guess we just don't see things the same way. By the way, do you live in the US?

MJ angel
11-25-2009, 02:14 PM
MJ - I guess we just don't see things the same way. By the way, do you live in the US?

See my Flag..?

I study American History at University ..i was there on summer 2008 (and it didnt benefit my english..:rolleyes:).

I respect your opinion , no problem ..

~*BGT*~
11-25-2009, 02:58 PM
^^ MJ Angel, I think your English is great. :) Mais, je peux comprendre. Beaucoup de personnes me disent que je parle francais bien, mais je ne le pense pas. :)

JolánGagó
11-25-2009, 03:04 PM
~*BGT*~ got a chat thread! :rocker2:

ad-out
11-25-2009, 03:10 PM
See my Flag..?

I study American History at University ..i was there on summer 2008 (and it didnt benefit my english..:rolleyes:).

I respect your opinion , no problem ..

I see that you have a French flag but many posters here have flags that are different from the country in which they actually live. I just wondered since you seem to be so passionate about this and I am not aware of such programs to benefit minorities in France. (please forgive my ignorance if there are)

Henry Chinaski
11-25-2009, 05:16 PM
you'd have to be a complete racist (and a mildly retarded one at that) to go and see a film like Norbit.

same applies to plenty of hollywood films where the black lead indulges in cartoonish stereotypes and generally speaks like some sort of inebriated cretin.

seems american audiences enjoy that sort of thing more than international ones.

if you want to use hollywood films to make some outlandish points then you're going to have to dig a bit deeper than looking at the totals grossed by black actors. that's if you want to have any sort of credibility whatsoever.

Last will smith film I saw was Hancock (a film in which the black superhero is also an alcoholic bum who pisses himself while passed out on park benches). I was taking a girl out and let her choose being the mug that I am. Shit would be a kind description of that film.

MJ angel
11-25-2009, 07:01 PM
I see that you have a French flag but many posters here have flags that are different from the country in which they actually live. I just wondered since you seem to be so passionate about this and I am not aware of such programs to benefit minorities in France. (please forgive my ignorance if there are)


oh dont be so sensitive ...:hug:

I live in France , Paris . There is no such a program here :rolleyes: and it is a big problem , they couldnt even have the courage to vote for a Woman the last elections ..then a black ..:rolleyes:

MJ angel
11-25-2009, 07:03 PM
^^ MJ Angel, I think your English is great. :) Mais, je peux comprendre. Beaucoup de personnes me disent que je parle francais bien, mais je ne le pense pas. :)



Ces personnes ont raison , your french is great giving the difficulty of the grammar of this language .. .

buddyholly
11-25-2009, 08:57 PM
I also think President Obama is one of the most disrespected presidents in history in terms of what he's actually done to deserve said disrespect.

How can you seriously make statements like that? Obama is actually one of the most fawned-over presidents in history. Are you confusing ''disrespect'' and ''disagreement?'' Could you give an example or two of this mysterious disrespect?

buddyholly
11-25-2009, 09:06 PM
same applies to plenty of hollywood films where the black lead indulges in cartoonish stereotypes and generally speaks like some sort of inebriated cretin.

seems american audiences enjoy that sort of thing



Change ''black'' to''white'' and you then have to change ''american to ''french'' to explain the French adoration of a cartoonish stereotype speaking like an inebriated cretin (Jerry Lewis).

tangerine_dream
12-17-2009, 03:14 PM
It hasn't been a good month to be Italy, has it? http://i25.tinypic.com/28m2wer.jpg

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/13/italy-racism-football-mario-balotelli

Italy's culture of racism exposed by fans' abuse of black football star
Born in Sicily to Ghanaian parents, Inter Milan's Mario Balotelli personifies a refusal to accept a multi-ethnic society

http://i45.tinypic.com/2n8ri1z.jpg

The songs are varied, offensive and, in at least one case, openly racist. "If you jump up and down, Balotelli dies" is a favourite with supporters of arguably the most famous Italian football club, Juventus.

"A negro cannot be Italian" is the chant that explains the vitriol. The target of the abuse is 19-year-old Mario Balotelli, a footballer with Italian champions Inter Milan and a rising star of Italy's Under-21 national team.

In England, Germany or France, Balotelli would be making headlines in the sports pages as one of the most exciting young prospects in the national sport. In Italy, his treatment at the hands of a minority of hostile football fans is turning him into a symbol of the country's seeming inability to embrace a multi-ethnic identity. Last Monday, Juventus were fined for anti-Balotelli chanting at a match for the second time this season.

Balotelli was born – and immediately abandoned by his Ghanaian parents – in the Sicilian capital, Palermo. He is an Italian passport holder and was brought up by adopted parents in Brescia from the age of two. He speaks with the accent of his region, but has received far more racist abuse than other black stars in Italian football because his Italian identity is seen by some as a provocation.

"The difference [from other black players] is Balotelli is totally black and totally Italian, and that has provoked a short circuit among fans," said Sandro Modeo, a correspondent for Corriere della Sera.

As Italy's immigrant total reaches 7%, the treatment of many of the "Balotelli generation" – the half-million children of immigrants born in Italy who qualify by law for Italian citizenship on their 18th birthday – is becoming an increasingly controversial issue in a country which still, overwhelmingly, considers itself white.

Yesterday, a black Italian writer, Pap Khouma, wrote an open letter to La Repubblica, headlined "Being a black Italian: my life as an obstacle course". In it, he described incidents of routine discrimination: regular requests to provide his permit to stay in Italy; being mistaken for a street-seller by his Milanese neighbours. On one occasion, running through Milan's streets late for work, Khouma was stopped by a policeman, asked for his papers and escorted to the local station as a non-EU "foreigner". "Have you any idea," Khouma asked the paper's readers, "what it means to be Italian and black in Italy in 2009?"

For Gian Antonio Stella, a columnist for Corriere della Sera, the racism is evident and ignoring it a national pastime. "Britain has reflected on its colonial past, Germany has done the same with Nazism, but Italians still believe the myth of the Good Italian, soft colonialism and insist the racial laws of the 1930s were passed by fascists, not Italians," he said.

Despite the difficulties, the Balotelli generation is beginning to make its presence felt. The Italian under-14 cricket team is largely made up of Asian-Italians and won a European tournament this summer. Lihao Zhang, an 11-year-old girl of Chinese extraction, living in Voghera, the Lombardy heartland of the xenophobic Northern League party, received glowing press reviews after winning a school competition this year for poetry written in local dialect.

"The offspring of immigrants are easing into Italian culture, meaning Italian traditions are not going to be lost," said Alessandro Campi, a professor of political science at the University of Perugia. "If anything, these children will have more problems with their own families' cultures than with their friends'."

As for Balotelli, a one-match ban for Juventus fans from their home stadium, follow-up fines of over €20,000 (£18,000) for the club and questions in parliament have failed to stop the chants, which are not limited to Turin, where the club is based. The coach of Ghana's national team, Milovan Rajevac, has publicly invited him to play for the country in next summer's World Cup. And the beginnings of a backlash against the abuse may be beginning. Some commentators are now calling for the 6ft 2in striker to be selected immediately for the Italian team.

"I am sorry for Balotelli, he should be left alone to play football, but right now he is symbol of a cultural shift in Italy and a yardstick for whether we can make that change," said Stella, the Corriere della Sera columnist.

Growing up in rich, industrial Brescia, the player became used to racial abuse during school matches, with parents pointing to his height and claiming "with these Africans you can never tell what age they really are".

"Mario always needed love and affection," his adoptive sister Cristina told the French newspaper L'Equipe. "He wouldn't go to sleep without his mother holding his hand."

On the pitch as a professional, he has sometimes been unable to ignore the hostility from the stands. Faced with Roma fans who reportedly threw bananas at him in a bar, he stuck his tongue out at an opposition defender after scoring against them. For that, claimed the Roma captain Francesco Totti, he "deserved a slap".

"It's a shame that everyone is more upset with me than with the people yelling at me," replied Balotelli.

If Balotelli is indeed picked by Italian national coach Marcello Lippi to play in the World Cup next summer, the selection may signal a new era for black Italians. And as more and more of their white compatriots realise that the country's ethnic make-up is changing, support is at least beginning to emerge across the political spectrum.

"Balotelli is stubborn, combative and can be a bit of a bully, but at the same time he is generous, brave and irreverent," said Fare Futuro, a think-tank run by the prominent centre right politician Gianfranco Fini. "He is pure talent. Genius and lack of restraint all in one. What else could be more Italian than that?"

Clydey
12-17-2009, 03:16 PM
I blame Betty.

prima donna
12-17-2009, 03:27 PM
Sad, but true. The racism and xenophobia are especially prevalent in the region of Veneto. Lombardy is perhaps the most civilized Italian region, yet there are still glaring weaknesses which must be addressed. Although one wonders why so many Italians have such an aversion to people of color, especially given the abundance of dark Italians -- some of which appear more Arabic than European.

prima donna
12-17-2009, 03:34 PM
Also, it is rather odd that a group considered to be perhaps the 3rd world of Western Europe would choose to perpetrate such deplorable acts of racism against another human being. Italians are not treated kindly in more civilized nations -- Germany and Switzerland being an example. And who can blame them, given tangible links to organized crime ? I think an average Italian in the United Kingdom would be viewed in the same light as a Mexican in the United States. How embarrassing and very awkward.

~*BGT*~
12-17-2009, 03:40 PM
How can you seriously make statements like that? Obama is actually one of the most fawned-over presidents in history. Are you confusing ''disrespect'' and ''disagreement?'' Could you give an example or two of this mysterious disrespect?

It's an observation. And if you don't see it, it's because you neither want to nor can see it.

http://www.racewire.org/archival_images/obamabucks3.jpg

http://assets.236.com/images/photo2/6438/original/original.jpg

http://maaadddog.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/obama_monkey11.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/shakespeares_sister/shakes3/bstshirt.png

http://blackhippychick.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/watermelon_white_house.jpg

Should I continue?

prima donna
12-17-2009, 03:41 PM
Would a moderator please delete those pictures ? They are actually offfensive.

~*BGT*~
12-17-2009, 03:54 PM
^^ Thank you for proving my point.

Dini
12-17-2009, 03:57 PM
I actually don't think Italy is known for being racist in sports as much as Spain. Just last year (or was it this year?) there was a high profile case of a group of fans painting themselves in black, mocking Formula 1 driver Lewis Hamilton and his family. I think there have been other instances in football too but I can't remember exactly the situation.

It's truly sad to see this happen again though, no matter what country.

Action Jackson
12-17-2009, 10:54 PM
Sad, but true. The racism and xenophobia are especially prevalent in the region of Veneto. Lombardy is perhaps the most civilized Italian region, yet there are still glaring weaknesses which must be addressed. Although one wonders why so many Italians have such an aversion to people of color, especially given the abundance of dark Italians -- some of which appear more Arabic than European.

It's not just in that region, it seems to be all through Italy and it descends to nearly all non-Italians. Aren't there a lot of Chinese in Milan? If so, how are they treated generally.

This happened in England in the 60s and 70s as well when the influx of immigrants with clearly different features was its highest. There have also been race riots, it will get worse before it gets better.

I hope Balotelli gets selected and because he deserves it. I wonder if there will be Italian fans travelling on the plane to South Africa, just going out to abuse him like the English did when John Barnes was selected.

buddyholly
12-17-2009, 11:30 PM
It's an observation. And if you don't see it, it's because you neither want to nor can see it.

Should I continue?

I didn't see it, actually. As you yourself say, it is probably because I don't want to. Looks like stuff from idiots that you either have to be in contact with or have to actively search the web to find. None of it came my way. So let me ask you, where did you find this stuff? Was it shoved in your face?

It is probably much the same sort of stuff that circulates among extreme groups, whoever the president. It will always be out there in some form, circulating in very small circles. Ignore it.

On the other hand, this sort of stuff is increasing rapidly because of the internet and instant circulation. So you probably could argue that Obama has received more of it. But it is because of vastly more rapid circulation.

prima donna
12-18-2009, 12:32 AM
It's not just in that region, it seems to be all through Italy and it descends to nearly all non-Italians. Aren't there a lot of Chinese in Milan? If so, how are they treated generally.
Italians, as a rule of thumb, cope poorly with minority groups. I recall having read an article some number of years ago in which an Italian-born man of color lamented the unwillingness of Italian employers to hire him, especially in positions that would have put him in direct contact with the public. For example, he was turned down at a supermarket because its owners feared that customers would be discomforted by the idea of coming into daily contact with him.

Many Northerners are not entirely comfortable with the idea of living next door to a Southern Italian, which goes without mentioning the epithets (e.g., terroni) that are used regularly with relative ease. So it shouldn't come as a surprise to learn of this sort of treatment with regard to 'stranieri'. Oh well.

Aloimeh
12-18-2009, 02:19 AM
Also, it is rather odd that a group considered to be perhaps the 3rd world of Western Europe would choose to perpetrate such deplorable acts of racism against another human being. Italians are not treated kindly in more civilized nations -- Germany and Switzerland being an example. And who can blame them, given tangible links to organized crime ? I think an average Italian in the United Kingdom would be viewed in the same light as a Mexican in the United States. How embarrassing and very awkward.

You're dissing your own ethnic group as the "3rd world of Western Europe"? Man, your snobbery goes beyond anything I've seen...

prima donna
12-18-2009, 03:22 AM
You're dissing your own ethnic group as the "3rd world of Western Europe"? Man, your snobbery goes beyond anything I've seen...
Sure -- take away the region of Lombardia and you have Mexico, culturally and economically speaking. Say, for instance, I wouldn't recommend wandering around in Calabria, Abruzzo, Sardegna, Sicilia, or Veneto after dark. Emiglia Romagna, Piemonte, and perhaps even Toscana are prosperous and fairly civilized. Italians are a very diverse group, so much so that one wonders if it's even appropriate to consider them part of the same culture.

Italy has produced brilliant artists, painters, philosophers, fashion designers, and cars. Such inventions however had little to do with the brutes (majority) who have so spoiled the country's reputation, unless they were employed as factory workers. Berlusconi, for example, is not a typical Italian; he's a sophisticated Milanese.

~*BGT*~
12-18-2009, 09:28 PM
I didn't see it, actually. As you yourself say, it is probably because I don't want to. Looks like stuff from idiots that you either have to be in contact with or have to actively search the web to find. None of it came my way. So let me ask you, where did you find this stuff? Was it shoved in your face?

It is probably much the same sort of stuff that circulates among extreme groups, whoever the president. It will always be out there in some form, circulating in very small circles. Ignore it.

On the other hand, this sort of stuff is increasing rapidly because of the internet and instant circulation. So you probably could argue that Obama has received more of it. But it is because of vastly more rapid circulation.

CNN, FoxNews, MSNBC, national and local evening news. Those pics were from the first page of the results from a Google search with the words "Obama" and "racism"

Stensland
12-18-2009, 10:48 PM
Sure -- take away the region of Lombardia and you have Mexico, culturally and economically speaking. Say, for instance, I wouldn't recommend wandering around in Calabria, Abruzzo, Sardegna, Sicilia, or Veneto after dark. Emiglia Romagna, Piemonte, and perhaps even Toscana are prosperous and fairly civilized. Italians are a very diverse group, so much so that one wonders if it's even appropriate to consider them part of the same culture.

Italy has produced brilliant artists, painters, philosophers, fashion designers, and cars. Such inventions however had little to do with the brutes (majority) who have so spoiled the country's reputation, unless they were employed as factory workers. Berlusconi, for example, is not a typical Italian; he's a sophisticated Milanese.

interestingly german culture itself is predominantly everything non-italian or a cheap knock-off of italian habits. starting with the romans who basically invented the german, going over german emperors wooing rome to get "holified", german painters, sculptors, writers etc. flocking to italy due to its artistic environment and politicians even stealing il fascismo in the early 30s (all we needed to add was the teutonic touch: ****** the mediterranean version of its policies and forming it into a brutal, cold-blooded and clinical ideology)...germany itself has been looking south for centuries now.

*edit: oh, and once the war was over the first thing germans were longing for after they rebuilt the country in the 50s?

...vacation in italy. :D

~*BGT*~
12-18-2009, 11:31 PM
Parisians have a great admiration for all things Italian. I ate at more Italian restaurants in Paris than French.

turtle-rn
12-19-2009, 05:13 AM
Parisians have a great admiration for all things Italian. I ate at more Italian restaurants in Paris than French.
That makes you an American tourist who likes Italian food; what has it anything to do with the Parisians and where did you get they have a great admiration for Italian stuffs?

stealthisnick
12-19-2009, 11:28 AM
Berlusconi, for example, is not a typical Italian; he's a sophisticated Milanese.

probably I misunderstood the irony
otherwise
berlusconi is the most typical italian you could find
and if he is sophisticated I am cristoforo colombo

Lombardy is perhaps the most civilized Italian region.

:rolls:

prima donna
12-19-2009, 12:33 PM
probably I misunderstood the irony otherwise berlusconi is the most typical italian you could find
and if he is sophisticated I am cristoforo colombo
Sophisticated in the sense that he's industrious, charismatic, and well-accomplished. Typical Italians -- or typical members of any nationality for that matter -- lack the dexterity to accomplish that which Berlusconi has accomplished. He would be a perfect fit in any of the wealthy enclaves of the United States.

Not sure whether this has occurred to certain people, but I tend to formulate my judgments based upon actual achievements, as opposed to words and appearances. In sum, the fact that you dislike a person's politics doesn't undermine said person's achievements.

zeleni
12-19-2009, 01:14 PM
Sure -- take away the region of Lombardia and you have Mexico, culturally and economically speaking. Say, for instance, I wouldn't recommend wandering around in Calabria, Abruzzo, Sardegna, Sicilia, or Veneto after dark. Emiglia Romagna, Piemonte, and perhaps even Toscana are prosperous and fairly civilized. Italians are a very diverse group, so much so that one wonders if it's even appropriate to consider them part of the same culture.

Italy has produced brilliant artists, painters, philosophers, fashion designers, and cars. Such inventions however had little to do with the brutes (majority) who have so spoiled the country's reputation, unless they were employed as factory workers. Berlusconi, for example, is not a typical Italian; he's a sophisticated Milanese.

Why Veneto?

prima donna
12-19-2009, 01:32 PM
Why Veneto?
Due to the prevalence of neo-nazi skinheads, nationalistic groups, and immigrants.

A neo-nazi attack in Verona: http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKL058731820080505

zeleni
12-19-2009, 01:46 PM
Are you saying there are more neo-nazis in Veneto than in Lombardy or Rome? If so, what is the reason in your opinion? Does is have to do something with Italians expelled from Istria, Rijeka/Fiume and Zadar/Zara after WW2?

Why immigrants? Thought there are more immigrants in Milano...

prima donna
12-19-2009, 01:47 PM
Venetians were once disparagingly referred to as 'i terroni del nord', as they were considered the least cultivated of Northerners in cultural terms. Many of them also worked in agriculture, which might explain the application of such an epithet: terrone (singular)/terroni (plural) refers to 'terra' which literally translates to 'soil'.

zeleni
12-19-2009, 01:55 PM
Venetians were once disparagingly referred to as 'i terroni del nord', as they were considered the least cultivated of Northerners in cultural terms. Many of them also worked in agriculture, which might explain the application of such an epithet: terrone (singular)/terroni (plural) refers to 'terra' which literally translates to 'soil'.

That sounds little racist, no? :scratch:

How can any city be more "cultivated" than Venice even in Italy?:shrug:

prima donna
12-19-2009, 01:58 PM
Are you saying there are more neo-nazis in Veneto than in Lombardy or Rome? Why immigrants? Thought there are more immigrants in Milano...
I've only traveled to Rome four times, so I can't elucidate the question of neo-nazi expansion in that particular location. It is my preference to venture no farther south than the region of Tuscany. Lombardia has a disproportionately (in relation to other regions) high number of immigrants, that is quite true, but there are still cozy suburbs where few immigrants are to be found.

Milano has become the very opposite of that which it was 20 or 30 years ago. As a consequence, one must possess the financial wherewithal with which to pay the exorbitant cost of living in a safe part of Milano, or choose to live in a town on the outskirts of the city. As to the question of neo-nazis, they are ubiquitous, but their presence is most pronounced within the region of Veneto.

Spadea TT
12-19-2009, 01:59 PM
I don't think there is a problem. Balotelli is really horrible person, not for the colour for his skin but because of how he behaves. In fact Eto'o doesn't get any insult...

prima donna
12-19-2009, 02:02 PM
That sounds little racist, no? :scratch:

How can any city be more "cultivated" than Venice even in Italy?:shrug:
I should have said 'veneti' (inhabitants of the region of Veneto) not Venetians -- the region of Veneto as a whole. Venice is one small part of a very large region. It is no more a representation of the region itself than, say, New York is of the United States.

The last time I checked, people from Veneto were of the same skin color as people from any other Northern Italian region. Therefore, what has race to do with the matter? If you are interested in understanding the regional differences, I can't be expected to sugarcoat basic facts.

zeleni
12-19-2009, 02:10 PM
I meant racist in wider sense...

As I can recall you had some abusive remarks about southern Italians.

It is my preference to venture no farther south than the region of Tuscany.

Something like this in post above. "venture"? :rolleyes:

prima donna
12-19-2009, 02:20 PM
I meant racist in wider sense...

As I can recall you had some abusive remarks about southern Italians.



Something like this in post above. "venture"? :rolleyes:
"In a wider sense" -- what does this mean ?

In what way is such a statement abusive ? It is a personal preference. Such a preference is analogous to Bostonians or New Yorkers avoiding Alabama or Georgia. There are distinct cultural differences, even in terms of the cuisine. Same analogy, Bostonians and New Yorkers probably wouldn't enjoy the culinary delicacies of Georgia, so why venture there ?

Historically speaking, you ought to be aware of the fact that the concept of Italy (unification) is a relatively new one. It is not as though cultural differences are superficial, there are traditions, habits, dialects, cuisine, and prevailing mentalities which distinguish each region.

Henry Chinaski
12-19-2009, 02:21 PM
I don't think there is a problem. Balotelli is really horrible person, not for the colour for his skin but because of how he behaves. In fact Eto'o doesn't get any insult...

what about Marco Zoro, who tried to walk off the pitch due to the racist abuse he was getting from Inter fans?

Horrible person or non-entity opponent picked on for purely the colour of his skin?

balotelli's reputation probably doesn't help matters but to blame it soley on him being a horrible person is absurd.

Spadea TT
12-19-2009, 02:35 PM
what about Marco Zoro, who tried to walk off the pitch due to the racist abuse he was getting from Inter fans?

Horrible person or non-entity opponent picked on for purely the colour of his skin?

balotelli's reputation probably doesn't help matters but to blame it soley on him being a horrible person is absurd.

He isn't the only black player in the Italian league and he isn't the only black Italian. See Ferrari, Liverani: they don't get such a treatment.
Among thousands of supporters, anyway, it's normal that you find some retarded people. That's why I think the most absurd thing is seeing a pro player leaving the court only because of some booos in a match.
This Balotelli thing went a bit forward because he gets insulted in every court he goes. And that's for his personality, not for his skin colour.

zeleni
12-19-2009, 02:41 PM
"In a wider sense" -- what does this mean ?

In what way is such a statement abusive ? It is a personal preference. Such a preference is analogous to Bostonians or New Yorkers avoiding Alabama or Georgia. There are distinct cultural differences, even in terms of the cuisine. Same analogy, Bostonians and New Yorkers probably wouldn't enjoy the culinary delicacies of Georgia, so why venture there ?

Historically speaking, you ought to be aware of the fact that the concept of Italy (unification) is a relatively new one. It is not as though cultural differences are superficial, there are traditions, habits, dialects, cuisine, and prevailing mentalities which distinguish each region.

Abusive is your use of English verb "venture".

–verb (used with object)
5. to expose to hazard; risk: to venture one's fortune; to venture one's life.
6. to take the risk of; brave the dangers of: to venture a voyage into space.
7. to undertake to express, as when opposition or resistance appears likely to follow; be bold enough; dare: I venture to say that you are behaving foolishly.
8. to take the risk of sending.
–verb (used without object)
9. to make or embark upon a venture; dare to go: He ventured deep into the jungle.
10. to take a risk; dare; presume: to venture on an ambitious program of reform.
11. to invest venture capital.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/venture

Like people will cook you alive there so you have to "venture" i.e. "to expose to hazard".

I think you are racist/chauvinist but not open like neo-nazis. You enjoy to express your views with euphemisms by swaggering around with your English language skills.

Henry Chinaski
12-19-2009, 02:45 PM
Well Liverani and Ferrari both had 1 Italian parent so that may have helped them, I don't know.

Agree that you'll always get some retards at matches but reports seem to suggest that the chants aimed at Balotelli go way beyond tiny minorities. Like I said, I agree that his reputation doesn't help him but it doesn't explain why the chants are always linked to his race.

Zoro didn't try to walk off because of "some boos". He tried to walk off because unrelenting monkey chants from a huge chunk of the Inter section reduced him to tears. Not the best frame of mind to be trying to play a football match in.

prima donna
12-19-2009, 02:55 PM
Like people will cook you alive there so you have to "venture" i.e. "to expose to hazard".
I understand that political correctness entails sophistry and disregard for reality, but are you at all familiar with organized crime or sanitation issues (e.g., Napoli) ?

An illustration of exposure to hazard (the following is a picture of Naples)
http://aurora86.ilcannocchiale.it/mediamanager/sys.user/33037/NAPOLI-IMMONDIZIA.jpg

I think you are racist/chauvinist but not open like neo-nazis. You enjoy to express your views with euphemisms by swaggering around with your English language skills.
I'm the only person in this thread who has decried the treatment of people of color by Italians, yet I'm branded a racist -- quite a paradox. I live in reality, not a flowery parallel universe in which perils and realities cease to exist. I think a large percentage of Italians would agree with that which I've written in this thread. It's odd that I've actually been involved with women from Veneto who would probably agree with much -- not all -- of what I've written.

Tell me, have you lived in or been to Italy ?

Stensland
12-19-2009, 04:03 PM
pd, what yo have not commented on so far is the relation between berlusconi and the various right-wing groups backing him up since day one. i take it you're quite fond of the policies implemented by berlusconi, right?

well, the lega nord and its subgroups (including neo-fascists etc.) across the regions are berlusconi fans during national elections.

btw do you believe berlusconi has overall been good for italy over the last two decades or rather bad? i'm very sure he himself has been responsible for the way the country is seen outside italy these days: full of fun machismo, full of la dolce vita, yet corrupt, criminal and rarely acting with one tiny bit of sustainablity.

i wonder what you're thinking.

star
12-19-2009, 04:23 PM
New York

http://www.crownheights.info/media/4/20080102-ts-garbage.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/images/1156_rats_newyork/5113212_trash-in-street-300.jpg

prima donna
12-19-2009, 04:23 PM
pd, what yo have not commented on so far is the relation between berlusconi and the various right-wing groups backing him up since day one. i take it you're quite fond of the policies implemented by berlusconi, right?

well, the lega nord and its subgroups (including neo-fascists etc.) across the regions are berlusconi fans during national elections.

btw do you believe berlusconi has overall been good for italy over the last two decades or rather bad? i'm very sure he himself has been responsible for the way the country is seen outside italy these days: full of fun machismo, full of la dolce vita, yet corrupt, criminal and rarely acting with one tiny bit of sustainablity.

i wonder what you're thinking.
I'm not engrossed in Italian politics, so I'm in no position to determine whether Berlusconi has done more harm than good. Although I do believe that groups such as La Lega Nord should have a seat at the table, as they promote cultural preservation (e.g., dialects, regional traditions, conservative Italian culture). Italy is not the United States (i.e., a country whose very foundation is based upon immigration), therefore it follows that Italy should not be subject to societal and cultural norms as determined by the United States.

Italians have the right to live as they please, so long as they do not impinge upon the human rights of minority groups. I'm in favor of an immigration quota or some similar mechanism by which to limit the number of immigrants. It should be small enough to ensure that minority groups will be able to live among one another, establishing and expanding their own unique communities. Naturally, a prosperous immigrant should not be impeded in his efforts to move into a better neighborhood (zona), but such cases would be so rare that it would enable the majority and minority to co-exist in such a way that social interaction, excluding a professional environment, would be limited and tolerable.

prima donna
12-19-2009, 04:29 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/01/21/trash.irpt/index.html - for those who care to better inform themselves on the immondizia problem in Naples.

Aloimeh
12-19-2009, 04:53 PM
I'm surprised you think Veneto is a bad region. Wasn't Venice a culturally important city in Italian history? Not just the Republic of Venice and its fascinating conflicts in the Mediterranean with the Byzantines, Turks, and Genoans, but also the music school (Vivaldi and Albinoni, for example), and the art school (e.g. Titian and Tintoretto).

You seem to think economics it the most basic denominator of civilization. What does that even mean? Japanese are economically way ahead of Chinese, yet if you look at the history of both it is indisputably the Chinese that are the foundation and generators of East Asian culture and civilization.

I'm not saying that southern Italy is the mother of northern Italy, but I think to look solely at economics and the mafia is to ignore the crucial role of almost all regions of Italy in shaping a national identity and contributing to the culture we now call Italian.

I find a place like Lombardy to be distinctly the least "Italian" of the regions given the enormous Germanic influence in the region's history. As you insinuated, it is not so different from regions of Switzerland and Germany, and that is not just because of the economics.

rtgy
12-19-2009, 05:02 PM
They shouldn't have been removed because this type of reponse was bound to happen. Also, anyone else get the feeling the article is trying to suggest that the rest of the world, other than the USA, is racist?!

yeah same here;)

prima donna
12-19-2009, 05:05 PM
I'm surprised you think Veneto is a bad region. Wasn't Venice a culturally important city in Italian history? Not just the Republic of Venice and its fascinating conflicts in the Mediterranean with the Byzantines, Turks, and Genoans, but also the music school (Vivaldi and Albinoni, for example), and the art school (e.g. Titian and Tintoretto).
Again, at the risk of being repetitious, Venice is one small part of a very large region. Much of Veneto is made up of campagna (i.e., rural areas). Moreover, I would submit that Venezia is not even the most beautiful city in the region, based upon my few incursions into the region. Veneto was considered, for years, among the poorest cultivated of Northern Italian regions. What's more, the region has a history of discrimination, from Jewish ghettos (the word ghetto itself derives from Venetian culture) to contemporary neo-nazism. Simple facts, what I think of the region really isn't germane to the question of the perpetuation of racist, anti-Semitic, and xenophobic views.

http://www.webturismo.com/var/news/storage/images/veneto/mappa-veneto/1324-1-ita-IT/mappa-veneto_large.jpg



I find a place like Lombardy to be distinctly the least "Italian" of the regions given the enormous Germanic influence in the region's history. As you insinuated, it is not so different from regions of Switzerland and Germany, and that is not just because of the economics.
The extent of Austrian influence on Lombardia is incontrovertible, just as one cannot deny the influence of the Spaniards in Napoli and that of Moors and Normans in Sicilia. Although one might ask how you would choose to define "Italian", given that your assertion seems to tacitly imply that Italian culture is something which can be gauged or measured. What is Italian culture ? The Sopranos and vulgar little men running around or punctual businessmen who go quietly about their business in the foggy streets of Milan ?

Action Jackson
12-19-2009, 05:09 PM
The football thing in Italy with racism, yes it's rampant in the stadiums and the authorities are too busy taking kickbacks and bribes to care about it. Used to be the best league in the world and now it's a pale imitation.

There is racism everywhere and only deluded fools would think otherwise, the differences are in whether it's casual or direct and the impacts of it.

Verona fans did bring a noose to the game when they were going to sign a black player, but Chievo have had black players.

Some of these fans are such fucking morons doing the monkey chants, but forget they have black players in their own team.

prima donna
12-19-2009, 05:28 PM
There is racism everywhere and only deluded fools would think otherwise, the differences are in whether it's casual or direct and the impacts of it.
Racism is in fact ubiquitous, but the extent of such racism varies from place to place. And such a distinction is not merely academic, as there is a tremendous difference between having one's human rights violated (i.e., hospitalization), as opposed to, say, pedestrian forms of discrimination (e.g., rolling of the eyes, innocuous whispers).

Action Jackson
12-19-2009, 05:35 PM
Racism is in fact ubiquitous, but the extent of such racism varies from place to place. And such a distinction is not merely academic, as there is a tremendous difference between having one's human rights violated, as opposed to, say, pedestrian forms of discrimination.

It depends, just because a particular city or region has more people from foreign backgrounds does not mean they are going to be less racist. It means it's just done in a different manner and achieving the same purpose. Some places it's easier to be blatant about it.

Exclusion from the employment and housing sector, institutional racism, inter-ethnic conflict for individuals competing for the limited opportunities, this transcends. Rich places, yes we hate racism but don't want them living in our areas. Therefore they pay some of the poorer parts of the cities to house them, when the locals are struggling to get by, yes that is a great way of doing things.

mangoes
12-19-2009, 05:43 PM
Oh come on.........those pictures are being taken out of context...


New York

http://www.crownheights.info/media/4/20080102-ts-garbage.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/images/1156_rats_newyork/5113212_trash-in-street-300.jpg

prima donna
12-19-2009, 05:48 PM
Exclusion from the employment and housing sector, institutional racism, inter-ethnic conflict for individuals competing for the limited opportunities, this transcends. Rich places, yes we hate racism but don't want them living in our areas. Therefore they pay some of the poorer parts of the cities to house them, when the locals are struggling to get by, yes that is a great way of doing things.
Employment discrimination is fundamentally wrong and problematic, as it impedes one's ability to earn a decent living which, in my opinion, is a human rights violation; however, discrimination in the housing sector is common practice. New York City is widely perceived as one of the most diverse cities in the world, yet there are very few black men (irrespective of net worth) who would even be considered to purchase property on 5th Avenue or Park Avenue (Co-op boards determine such things). Same story for the Jewish community, especially in the 1940s -- there's a building on the Upper East Side colloquially referred to as the German-Jew building (created by rich jews who had been discriminated against by co-op boards). It's just a fact of life -- but who is stopping the victims of such discriminatory practices from building their own homes ?

The optimal choice, in this situation, is the acceptance of some degree of discrimination -- provided that it not undermine one's ability to earn a living.

Action Jackson
12-19-2009, 05:51 PM
Got to have the capital to build homes and how is that going to happen if the work opportunities aren't there to develop the capital resources.

prima donna
12-19-2009, 06:08 PM
Got to have the capital to build homes and how is that going to happen if the work opportunities aren't there to develop the capital resources.
Entrepreneurship facilitates buying, selling and construction -- the Italian real estate market is booming in the Muslim community for this very reason, not because Italians are particularly fond of them, but due to the power of money. As a result, neighborhoods which were once populated only by middle-class Italians are now populated by a substantial Muslim population. Middle-class individuals are limited in their ability to discriminate without suffering consequences (i.e., the loss of money), while only the filthy rich (i.e., 5th Avenue and Park Avenue) can afford (literally) to impose such rigid standards.

It's easier said than done, but nothing is going to change, so coming up with solutions is more constructive than complaining.

~*BGT*~
12-19-2009, 06:10 PM
That makes you an American tourist who likes Italian food; what has it anything to do with the Parisians and where did you get they have a great admiration for Italian stuffs?

I studied in Paris and took a course on Parisian and French culture. It's also an observation.

superslam77
12-19-2009, 07:02 PM
Where did this happen again?

What is the point of blaming another province and proving it with the trash problem.
You think that racism and trash emergencies only happen in Italy :rolleyes:

Can we go back to blame the USA or the UK :devil:

Stensland
12-19-2009, 07:16 PM
I'm not engrossed in Italian politics, so I'm in no position to determine whether Berlusconi has done more harm than good. Although I do believe that groups such as La Lega Nord should have a seat at the table, as they promote cultural preservation (e.g., dialects, regional traditions, conservative Italian culture).

do you know their stance on any issue, what they're emphasizing? you're putting it quite mildly, to be honest.


Italy is not the United States (i.e., a country whose very foundation is based upon immigration), therefore it follows that Italy should not be subject to societal and cultural norms as determined by the United States.

unlike the states italy (western europe in general) desperately needs immigrants though. the country's lack of bambinis is only second to japan worldwide, as far as i know. compared to the uk, france or germany the percentage of immigrants is fairly low anyways. however, i'm not surprised that xenophobia is most rampant in those countries that have tiny minority groups as opposed to, let's say, greater london. eastern germany is way more racist than the ruhr-valley, for example.

back on topic: i think it would be a nice gesture of lippi to take balotelli under his wing and bring him along to south africa.

prima donna
12-19-2009, 07:48 PM
do you know their stance on any issue, what they're emphasizing?
Of course, but their views are a reflection of what many people say in the privacy of their own homes. I don't entirely agree with La Lega Nord's platform, nor do I entirely disagree with it. Not sure quite how to put this, but I'm not open to the idea of an integrated Italian society. Although I strongly believe that human rights violations should be eschewed.

unlike the states italy (western europe in general) desperately needs immigrants though.
Italy needs the right kind of immigrants (i.e., those with an elevated intelligence quotient), as opposed to unskilled immigrants.

Stensland
12-19-2009, 07:56 PM
how will italy attract those kind of people if foreigners in general are treated like crap? i knew little about the balotelli case, but there were many articles about vietnamese people immigrating and taking over all the tailor/drapery/cloth businesses - and getting insulted by italians nonetheless, despite being "industrious", as you like to put it.

dozens of industrialised countries are searching for that one stereotype immigrant you've been talking about: intelligent, hard-working, educated and peaceful. i don't think italy's playing its cards any right as of now, the rest of europe is easily outdistancing berlusconiland so far.

prima donna
12-19-2009, 08:04 PM
how will italy attract those kind of people if foreigners in general are treated like crap?
Not all foreigners are treated poorly, only those of color -- even then, there are exceptions to the rule. I would propose to the Italian government that moves be taken to incentivize the immigration of other Europeans. Russians, for example, are quite intelligent (as has been demonstrated by Israel where Russian Jews have integrated and occupied prominent societal roles), but have been shackled by a system which is antithetical to innovation. Italy already attracts plenty of Ukranian immigrants.

Stensland
12-19-2009, 08:42 PM
russians mostly emigrate to english-speaking countries and so do ukrainians - and italians (!). there have been many reports about italy's current brain drain (probably the largest among the fully industrialised world) being close to the record numbers during the first decades of the last century.

italy should woo educated romanians a bit more, i think. italian resembles the romanian language, which is why hundreds of thousands have come already - but the high potentials are turned off by the anti-immigrant sentiment in lombardy and other regions that need skilled labour. they should also go for the balkans, grab some young serbs, croats and slovenes.

they stand no chance in the global hunt for educated middle easterners or asians though. none. neither do germany or france btw.

Stensland
12-19-2009, 08:57 PM
Not all foreigners are treated poorly, only those of color.

italian mobs even hunt down romani people. they burn down their whole settlements. last time i checked they look just like the average italian. if something like that would've happened in germany, it would capture the nation for two months. outrage, shame, blame game. if the article is any right, this particular hunt was close to lynching, with people giving out gallons of petroleum to neighbours for free to help out. apparently it's been some sort of revenge as a romani girl tried to kidnap an italian child.

http://www.stern.de/politik/ausland/italien-flammende-wut-gegen-immigranten-620480.html

zeleni
12-19-2009, 09:03 PM
I understand that political correctness entails sophistry and disregard for reality, but are you at all familiar with organized crime or sanitation issues (e.g., Napoli) ?
Are you familiar with fact that organized crime (and garbage) is issue almost every in the world (perhaps in Milano too:eek:)?
As for political correctness - as said before I think you enjoy to express politically incorrect views (like racism) in politically correct way by using your language skills and logical delusions as seen bellow.
An illustration of exposure to hazard (the following is a picture of Naples)
http://aurora86.ilcannocchiale.it/mediamanager/sys.user/33037/NAPOLI-IMMONDIZIA.jpg
Garbage on the street is picture of Naples. Yeah, right.
Like someone captured prima donna's feces as illustration of his achievements.:)

I'm the only person in this thread who has decried the treatment of people of color by Italians, yet I'm branded a racist -- quite a paradox. I live in reality, not a flowery parallel universe in which perils and realities cease to exist. I think a large percentage of Italians would agree with that which I've written in this thread. It's odd that I've actually been involved with women from Veneto who would probably agree with much -- not all -- of what I've written.

Tell me, have you lived in or been to Italy ?No, I haven't. I plan go there as I have Italian friend in Trieste. :D

But I have been in Mongolia for month! Mongols(:eek:) are respectful and friendly people, believe it or not. How much worse can southern Italy be than Mongolia? Should I bring gun with me if I decide to "venture" there?:)

Stensland
12-19-2009, 09:17 PM
Should I bring gun with me if I decide to "venture" there?:)

only if you have the "financial wherewithall." ;)

prima donna
12-19-2009, 10:13 PM
russians mostly emigrate to english-speaking countries and so do ukrainians - and italians (!). there have been many reports about italy's current brain drain (probably the largest among the fully industrialised world) being close to the record numbers during the first decades of the last century. [/

italy should woo educated romanians a bit more, i think. italian resembles the romanian language, which is why hundreds of thousands have come already - but the high potentials are turned off by the anti-immigrant sentiment in lombardy and other regions that need skilled labour. they should also go for the balkans, grab some young serbs, croats and slovenes.

they stand no chance in the global hunt for educated middle easterners or asians though. none. neither do germany or france btw.
All true, but the brain drain that has bedeviled Russia has been of such massive proportions that if Italy were able to, through inventive measures, attract only a fraction of the emigrants from Russia, the country itself would reap tremendous benefits.

prima donna
12-19-2009, 10:19 PM
Garbage on the street is picture of Naples. Yeah, right. :)
This is normally the point at which I would cease to entertain your ignorance, but I'd like to recommend a few sources which will serve to better inform you as to the nature of a very serious problem:
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1702831,00.html
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-39172

superslam77
12-19-2009, 10:43 PM
This is normally the point at which I would cease to entertain your ignorance, but I'd like to recommend a few sources which will serve to better inform you as to the nature of a very serious problem:
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1702831,00.html
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-39172

I don't understand what the topic has to do with the garbage of Napoli :rolleyes:... My primary city of origin btw :mad:

prima donna
12-19-2009, 10:54 PM
I don't understand what the topic has to do with the garbage of Napoli :rolleyes:... My primary city of origin btw :mad:
A response to the question of why I seldom venture south of Toscana. Nothing to do with any dislike of the city itself. Most threads wander off-topic, why would this one be any different ?

superslam77
12-19-2009, 11:05 PM
A response to the question of why I seldom venture south of Toscana. Nothing to do with any dislike of the city itself. Most threads wander off-topic, why would this one be any different ?

You know it was never like that when i used to live there years ago. I guess now we know why my brothers are so messy and i'm so trashy :devil:

turtle-rn
12-19-2009, 11:17 PM
I studied in Paris and took a course on Parisian and French culture. It's also an observation.
From observation to broad generalization, it takes more than a few months in Paris, be it with Parisian culture class (whatever that means) or not.

Action Jackson
12-20-2009, 12:45 AM
Entrepreneurship facilitates buying, selling and construction -- the Italian real estate market is booming in the Muslim community for this very reason, not because Italians are particularly fond of them, but due to the power of money. As a result, neighborhoods which were once populated only by middle-class Italians are now populated by a substantial Muslim population. Middle-class individuals are limited in their ability to discriminate without suffering consequences (i.e., the loss of money), while only the filthy rich (i.e., 5th Avenue and Park Avenue) can afford (literally) to impose such rigid standards.

It's easier said than done, but nothing is going to change, so coming up with solutions is more constructive than complaining.

The dominant ideology sets the agenda in any society and this is not a large group, so it filters down through the ranks.

Depends on what the business is doesn't it. If it succeeds then of course the benefits will be there to see down the line, but do most businesses succeed then the answer is no. Demographics change over time, like areas that were working class areas have now changed so much that they are unrecognisable.

Not everything about gentrification is good. If there are a large influx of people from a different group from the majority, then they will start to move out provided they are able to do so and then the demographics change.

Italy had lax immigration borders and it was one of the easiest places to get to. Recently it became a country of immigration unlike previously when it was emigration.

Fact is it racism goes both ways from the majority and the immigrants, but people don't want to acknowledge it.

Spadea TT
12-20-2009, 01:43 AM
The football thing in Italy with racism, yes it's rampant in the stadiums and the authorities are too busy taking kickbacks and bribes to care about it. Used to be the best league in the world and now it's a pale imitation.

There is racism everywhere and only deluded fools would think otherwise, the differences are in whether it's casual or direct and the impacts of it.

Verona fans did bring a noose to the game when they were going to sign a black player, but Chievo have had black players.

Some of these fans are such fucking morons doing the monkey chants, but forget they have black players in their own team.

To be honest Treviso supporters went off the stadium when a black player entered the game (in their own team)...

Spadea TT
12-20-2009, 01:52 AM
Well Liverani and Ferrari both had 1 Italian parent so that may have helped them, I don't know.

Agree that you'll always get some retards at matches but reports seem to suggest that the chants aimed at Balotelli go way beyond tiny minorities. Like I said, I agree that his reputation doesn't help him but it doesn't explain why the chants are always linked to his race.

Zoro didn't try to walk off because of "some boos". He tried to walk off because unrelenting monkey chants from a huge chunk of the Inter section reduced him to tears. Not the best frame of mind to be trying to play a football match in.

Zoro had problems only with Inter fans.
Balotelli has problems everywhere and I don't think the reason is racism. And the first thing people use to insult black people is something linked to race, just to make it harsher, because of anger.
Italy has some problems related to racism, but Balotelli is definitely not among them, imo.

Action Jackson
12-20-2009, 02:16 AM
To be honest Treviso supporters went off the stadium when a black player entered the game (in their own team)...

But at least the players of Treviso did something to show solidarity and take the piss out of the idiots. Verona have never done that either through management

Of course there are racial issues with Balotelli, whether he is a prick or not Look at Materazzi he is a controversial guy, but that's it. I am not going to call him a dirty Italian cheat.

stealthisnick
12-20-2009, 11:10 AM
Sophisticated in the sense that he's industrious, charismatic, and well-accomplished. Typical Italians -- or typical members of any nationality for that matter -- lack the dexterity to accomplish that which Berlusconi has accomplished. He would be a perfect fit in any of the wealthy enclaves of the United States.

Not sure whether this has occurred to certain people, but I tend to formulate my judgments based upon actual achievements, as opposed to words and appearances. In sum, the fact that you dislike a person's politics doesn't undermine said person's achievements.

first of all sophisticated does not mean industrious neither charismatic or well-accomplished
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sophisticated

I have to admit that he is more industrious than average italian
but charisma for example is cosidered typical of italians, at least his kind of charisma that is able to influence weak minded people only
and also the way he accomplished everything is typically italian, I guess I don't have to explain it

I don't like US but I think in whatever wealthy enclave there he would have ended up in jail even before starting to accomplish anything

by the way his achievements are just personal richness, building housing estates and founding private televisions
he is no leonardo da vinci or albert einstein or whatever
and all of this has nothing to do with his politics

stealthisnick
12-20-2009, 11:15 AM
Are you saying there are more neo-nazis in Veneto than in Lombardy or Rome? If so, what is the reason in your opinion? Does is have to do something with Italians expelled from Istria, Rijeka/Fiume and Zadar/Zara after WW2?

Why immigrants? Thought there are more immigrants in Milano...

rome is fore sure the place with more neofascist in italy
after rome, veneto maybe

R.Federer
12-20-2009, 11:27 AM
As yet another poorly educated American shows "it's" command of its native language. :lol:

stealthisnick
12-20-2009, 11:29 AM
i'm very sure he himself has been responsible for the way the country is seen outside italy these days: full of fun machismo, full of la dolce vita, yet corrupt, criminal and rarely acting with one tiny bit of sustainablity.


actually italy is like that
of course not everything and not everyone, but generally you can say it is like that
that's why I said he is typical italian, because he gives a good representation of the country
italians are like him or want to be like him and so thay vote him

stealthisnick
12-20-2009, 11:35 AM
I'm not engrossed in Italian politics, so I'm in no position to determine whether Berlusconi has done more harm than good. Although I do believe that groups such as La Lega Nord should have a seat at the table, as they promote cultural preservation (e.g., dialects, regional traditions, conservative Italian culture). Italy is not the United States (i.e., a country whose very foundation is based upon immigration), therefore it follows that Italy should not be subject to societal and cultural norms as determined by the United States.


:rolls:
putting culture and lega nord in the same phrase is really funny
"leghisti" are mainly a bunch of close minded racist who cannot see beyond their backyard
should I look for a video where a Lega Nord eurodeputy disifected seats of a train where black people were seated? :rolleyes: