Tomorrow will be published Nadal most controversial interview [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Tomorrow will be published Nadal most controversial interview

spiceboy
11-14-2009, 04:43 PM
In Sunday's edition of La Vanguardia, Catalonia's best-selling newspaper.
(Interview link in Spanish)http://www.magazinedigital.com/reportajes/los_reportajes_de_la_semana/reportaje/cat_id/81

These are some quotes (note that this is my own translation, sorry for any mispelling :angel:)

"The fact of going into war seems inconceivable to me. Almost all bad things that happen in life are due to radicalisms of any kind"

"To me, religion is the biggest reason of death in history"

"I don't believe an ideal world is possible" What would you change? "To get rid of all weapons in the world"

"What has impressed me the most was the terrorist attack to the Twin Towers. I was playing a match at that very same time in Madrid, trying to get my first ATP point and I wasted 13 match points before losing the match. I went straight away to see it live on TV"

(On Federer)"I have seen him train as hard as I do just a few times. Never, actually. And that impresses me. He is the best in history"

"My worst match of the season was my match vs Cilic in Beijing. That was a fucked up day" :o

"When I lost the Wimbledon final in 2007 I cried in the locker room. I don't like doing it in front of people"

"My sport idol is Tiger Woods. He's got the conviction to put that ball in the hole. He may have doubts but his decisiveness is spectacular"

Burrow
11-14-2009, 04:44 PM
first page

Certinfy
11-14-2009, 04:45 PM
:lol:

Johnny Groove
11-14-2009, 04:49 PM
This is some good stuff :lol:

Voo de Mar
11-14-2009, 04:54 PM
"What has impressed me the most was the terrorist attack to the Twin Towers. I was playing a match at that very same time in Madrid, trying to get my first ATP point and I wasted 13 match points before losing the match. I went straight away to see it live on TV"


:eek:

Nadal's first Futures (Spain F10), lost to Guillermo Platel 6-2 5-7 2-6...

oliverbwfc
11-14-2009, 05:07 PM
Im sorry but was this meant to be controversial? :o

Rafa = Fed Killa
11-14-2009, 05:22 PM
Nadal is right, fanatic religious clowns (who believe in pink dragons in the sky who control everything) are the cause of the worlds problems.

irma
11-14-2009, 05:34 PM
The problem doesn't start with religion or an ideology but people wanting to force that opinion on others.
Power is the worst treath of human beings because they can't handle it. History shows that.

I have seen the atheïst union demonstrating and all and they freaked me out as much as some religious unions.

Arkulari
11-14-2009, 05:36 PM
The problem doesn't start with religion or an ideology but people wanting to force that opinion on others.
Power is the worst treath of human beings because they can't handle it. History shows that.

I have seen the atheïst union demonstrating and all and they freaked me out as much as some religious unions.

This :yeah:

I respect Rafa's point of view, but even if I love him to death, he isn't exactly the brightest crayon in the box, I'm gonna wait and read the interview myself and then I'll say something about it ;)

Nole fan
11-14-2009, 05:38 PM
You forgot to add USA to that list.
The religions are responsible for almost all wars. If you go back in history almost every war was because different people try to put their religion on others. Now the reasons to start a war are a little bit changed. But if you take a look USA- Iraq, Afghanistan. Israel - the arab world. These are wars between different people and Gods.

So true, almost every war is started on the name of religion (or oil nowadays). I think Nadal is very clever to point that. I hate religious fanatics, they make me sick, I don't care which religion... they are all bad.

Nole fan
11-14-2009, 06:03 PM
Extremes are always bad. We have a few examples in this board. :p

Zirconek
11-14-2009, 06:07 PM
Thread cleaned (sorry for deleting some posts, it doesn't mean all deleted posts were "bad" or "inappropriate", but it had to be done). Now, please stay on topic ;)

elessar
11-14-2009, 06:09 PM
Such a controversial interview indeed.

IQ scores are ridiculously meaningless.

Extreme atheists are just as bad as extreme religious people. :shrug:
Religious nutjobs are a few millions dead people up on atheists nutjobs.

Staline is a fallacious argument, atheism was part of communism but it has never been the reason for the 70 millions dead.

laurie-1
11-14-2009, 06:10 PM
The problem doesn't start with religion or an ideology but people wanting to force that opinion on others.
Power is the worst treath of human beings because they can't handle it. History shows that.

I have seen the atheïst union demonstrating and all and they freaked me out as much as some religious unions.

I'm quite new to this forum even though I have been registered for over 2 years, I've mostly been on Womens tennis Forum during this period.

This forum is as crazy as that one :D

You talk more sense than you realise. This (and many other forums) are a microcosm of your point, people trying to impose their views and opinions on others - which ends inevitably in ferocious arguments and cyber war (maybe just as well we can't see eachother to take action!).

As for the Nadal article. I think we should wait until the article is published in the newspaper before making comments, after all it may not have been translated 100% accurately.

Start da Game
11-14-2009, 06:12 PM
Nadal is right, fanatic religious clowns (who believe in pink dragons in the sky who control everything) are the cause of the worlds problems.

seconded.......greed for wealth and obsession for religion are the major causes for all the problems in this world........well said, vamos rafa!

Midnight Ninja
11-14-2009, 06:13 PM
So true, almost every war is started on the name of religion (or oil nowadays).

You forgot it was undertaken by a "crusader"

Jōris
11-14-2009, 06:16 PM
His most controversial interview as in his least boring, but still a boring and uncontroversial interview.

Chiakifug
11-14-2009, 06:16 PM
Thread cleaned (sorry for deleting some posts, it doesn't mean all deleted posts were "bad" or "inappropriate", but it had to be done). Now, please stay on topic ;)

Good luck with that. :tape: All i know is that im keeping out of anything like it, some people are just mad when it comes to it.

BlueSwan
11-14-2009, 06:17 PM
I might just become a Nadal fan.

Then again, he's basically just saying what any sensible person would say.

Nole fan
11-14-2009, 06:19 PM
Because he's sensible. ;)

You forgot it was undertaken by a "crusader"


So true! LOL

Clydey
11-14-2009, 06:19 PM
I like this Nadal. Finally, he's speaking his mind.

acefreely
11-14-2009, 06:22 PM
Disappointing that Nadal mistakingly believes that religion is the basis for most deaths in the world when most wars having nothing to do with religion

Nole fan
11-14-2009, 06:23 PM
@ acefreely... in which world do you live in? :scratch:

acefreely
11-14-2009, 06:28 PM
It's greed,the quest for power and political ideology that is the root cause of most wars.

acefreely
11-14-2009, 06:29 PM
Looking forward to the full article. Always interesting to hear open comments.

elessar
11-14-2009, 06:33 PM
Disappointing that Nadal mistakingly believes that religion is the basis for most deaths in the world when most wars having nothing to do with religion
In many cases, religion is just an excuse to legitimate a war because getting people to die for greed and power is a tad tougher. it also requires more imagination to take the moral highground afterwards.

Aenea
11-14-2009, 06:34 PM
"To me, religion is the biggest reason of death in history"


Couldn't agree more. I hate all variety of religion.

acefreely
11-14-2009, 06:41 PM
In many cases, religion is just an excuse to legitimate a war because getting people to die for greed and power is a tad tougher. it also requires more imagination to take the moral highground afterwards.

Completely agree

MrChopin
11-14-2009, 07:05 PM
Maybe Rafa was inspired by Drugassi's recent "Open"ness. There certainly seems a parallel in their desire to talk about minutia regarding the world #1s of their respective eras.

Religious nutjobs are a few millions dead people up on atheists nutjobs.

Staline is a fallacious argument, atheism was part of communism but it has never been the reason for the 70 millions dead.

True, but one can't justify self-benefit at the cost of others by telling them "because there is no God and I want more power." Like atheism as impetus, how much death was done in the name of religion under the banner of "Love your neighbor as yourself"?

JMG
11-14-2009, 07:22 PM
"What has impressed me the most was the terrorist attack to the Twin Towers. I was playing a match at that very same time in Madrid, trying to get my first ATP point and I wasted 13 match points before losing the match. I went straight away to see it live on TV"

As if he really wasted 13 match points. :rolleyes:

momo_momo
11-14-2009, 07:45 PM
A tennis player talking about religion. Once in a blue moon. Touches a soft spot in everybody. Props for speaking his mind...and being so bold.

When I hear the word religion I hear rumbling sounds.

Disappointing that Nadal mistakingly believes that religion is the basis for most deaths in the world when most wars having nothing to do with religion

It's the greatest, darnedest, easiest excuse. I do hope next time, if anyone wants to start a war, they'll think of something more creative, except 'nuclear secrets'. As if oil wasn't the real reason.

Book out coming soon?

tangerine_dream
11-14-2009, 07:49 PM
I respect Rafa's point of view, but even if I love him to death, he isn't exactly the brightest crayon in the box, I'm gonna wait and read the interview myself and then I'll say something about it ;)
A bright crayon? :confused:

A tennis player talking about religion. Once in a blue moon. Touches a soft spot in everybody. Props for speaking his mind...and being so bold.
True. Considering how radicalized many religions have become lately, his comments could be quite controversial.

Still, nothing about wearing a wig or taking crystal meth. :sad:

Dini
11-14-2009, 07:50 PM
Refreshingly honest. :yeah:

I like.

nsidhan
11-14-2009, 08:13 PM
At the same time religion is the reason why the current majority of peaceful folks don't go around killing other people.

JolánGagó
11-14-2009, 08:18 PM
Greed for wealth and power is the reason behind each and every war. Religion, as atheism are mere tools.

elessar
11-14-2009, 08:23 PM
At the same time religion is the reason why the current majority of peaceful folks don't go around killing other people.
Baffling logic here.

Fiberlight1
11-14-2009, 08:26 PM
Baffling logic here.

:haha: you beat me to it.

FedFan_2007
11-14-2009, 08:35 PM
seconded.......greed for wealth and obsession for religion are the major causes for all the problems in this world........well said, vamos rafa!

If the plebs just stopped being envious of their rich masters and were satisfied with their minimum wage jobs, the world would be a better place. :D:D:D

FedFan_2007
11-14-2009, 08:37 PM
What we need is to use force to make religious person stop believing in their foolish god, totally in a Spartan way of course!

turkjey5
11-14-2009, 08:48 PM
why would anyone care what an undereducated jock thinks about world affairs?

Getta
11-14-2009, 08:57 PM
If the plebs just stopped being envious of their rich masters and were satisfied with their minimum wage jobs, the world would be a better place. :D:D:D

What we need is to use force to make religious person stop believing in their foolish god, totally in a Spartan way of course!

Spartans used to throw the deformed and retarded babies into a chasm on mount Taygetos... although that was the most primitive form of eugenics, the system's advantages became much greater than its disadvantages...

Roddickominator
11-14-2009, 09:02 PM
"What has impressed me the most was the terrorist attack to the Twin Towers. I was playing a match at that very same time in Madrid, trying to get my first ATP point and I wasted 13 match points before losing the match. I went straight away to see it live on TV"

Hopefully that is just lost in translation....nothing to be "impressed" about there.

Clydey
11-14-2009, 09:05 PM
Greed for wealth and power is the reason behind each and every war. Religion, as atheism are mere tools.

It's those sorts of comments that make you a figure of fun on MTF.

Clydey
11-14-2009, 09:06 PM
Hopefully that is just lost in translation....nothing to be "impressed" about there.

I think he means that it made an impression on him, not that he was impressed with the hijackers.

JolánGagó
11-14-2009, 09:13 PM
It's those sorts of comments that make you a figure of fun on MTF.

I do in three lines what you need three pages for.

Stgobaiano
11-14-2009, 09:32 PM
Rafa is right but he needs to complement his opinion.

Religions are the Pretext to the wars and to kill people but the real reason are always economics, you all think that the leaders belief in religions? they use them to dominate the people, because poeple are emotional and defends their beliefs and culture.

jonas
11-14-2009, 10:12 PM
That settles it. The world's two best tennis players are both crybabies.

FedFan_2007
11-14-2009, 10:45 PM
I think jocks should keep their retarded opinions to themselves. Roger himself admits to reading no books, and I can imagine Rafa doesn't either. But Nole strikes me as a well-educated bloke.

Lalalovesong
11-14-2009, 11:08 PM
Nice nice Rafa!
That's why I love him!

Lopez
11-14-2009, 11:08 PM
Greed for wealth and power is the reason behind each and every war. Religion, as atheism are mere tools.

The reason that these religious nutjobs perform their heinous acts (WTC bombing, suicide bombers etc.) is because they actually believe what they say they believe. They believe in the whole virgin stories, that they will be hailed as heroes etc. How can you say that their deeds are then unmotivated by religion with a straight face?

elessar
11-14-2009, 11:24 PM
In many cases, religion is just an excuse to legitimate a war because getting people to die for greed and power is a tad tougher.
Greed for wealth and power is the reason behind each and every war. Religion, as atheism are mere tools.
I do in three lines what you need three pages for.
It's easier when you're stealing somebody else's brillant comments :rolleyes:

Getta
11-14-2009, 11:26 PM
I think jocks should keep their retarded opinions to themselves. Roger himself admits to reading no books, and I can imagine Rafa doesn't either.

if their case is so severe, Federer and Nadal may both need to give a second shot... pictures and conversational style are just the beginning...

elessar
11-14-2009, 11:39 PM
The reason that these religious nutjobs perform their heinous acts (WTC bombing, suicide bombers etc.) is because they actually believe what they say they believe. They believe in the whole virgin stories, that they will be hailed as heroes etc. How can you say that their deeds are then unmotivated by religion with a straight face?
Of course the poor sods believe the religious crap their leaders spout, there's not a whole lot of wealth to be had when you're dead. It must be a nice power trip to know people would lay down their lives if you asked them too.

2003
11-15-2009, 12:09 AM
Cannot believe how stupid some people can be.

IT IS EVIL PEOPLE THAT COMMIT EVIL ACTS.

Religion is merly used as justification.

The real motives can vary, but are usually centered around greed, power and unreliqushing quest for fame as has already been stated.

Religion does not make someone pick up a gun and kill someone. It is shocking lack of empathy, education and common sense that does this.

"Thou shalt not kill"

"It is one of the basic rules of Islam that it is never acceptable or justifiable to take the life of another".

It is made explicatly clear.

They are only a brainwashed minority. If religion wasn't their justification they would find something else that was.

FedFan_2007
11-15-2009, 12:15 AM
Ok, I'm calling BULLSHIT on Supermods. This thread is allowed to be in GM, but my Federer thread just got moved to the Federer section. Also the Murray thread stands in GM! This is flagrant favoritism!

Getta
11-15-2009, 12:20 AM
They are only a brainwashed minority. If religion wasn't their justification they would find something else that was.

still a divine command makes a duty more stringent.

Nole fan
11-15-2009, 12:43 AM
I think jocks should keep their retarded opinions to themselves. Roger himself admits to reading no books, and I can imagine Rafa doesn't either. But Nole strikes me as a well-educated bloke.

Ah ah so true. I read Nole reads proper books, can keep a conversation about everything, goes to the opera and likes classical music. Clever, talented and sexy guy, the total package.

sawan66278
11-15-2009, 01:05 AM
From what I've read the quote from Rafa actually states that he believes that "extremism" in religion is what has led to the most deaths in history. Somewhat of a valid point when you look at the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc. No religious group has avoided extremism. But he is correct: extremism in anything leads to destruction and evil.

LoveFifteen
11-15-2009, 01:52 AM
Hopefully that is just lost in translation....nothing to be "impressed" about there.

I'm guessing in Spanish he used the verb impresionar, which should not be translated at "impressed" in this context.

It should read ... The thing that shocked me the most, or the thing that affected me the most ...

Sunset of Age
11-15-2009, 01:56 AM
In Sunday's edition of La Vanguardia, Catalonia's best-selling newspaper.

These are some quotes (note that this is my own translation, sorry for any mispelling :angel:)

"To me, religion is the biggest reason of death in history"


WOW, Raf! :yeah:

serveandvolley80
11-15-2009, 02:01 AM
(On Federer)"I have seen him train as hard as I do just a few times. Never, actually. And that impresses me. He is the best in history"

Its called talent, sometimes it overrides athletic ability, you can be so talented you don't need to work as hard as everyone else to succeed, i hate people like that with a passion! lol.

Corey Feldman
11-15-2009, 02:08 AM
Nadal accusing Fed of being a juicer IMO

Sunset of Age
11-15-2009, 02:10 AM
Nadal accusing Fed of being a juicer IMO

Why so, Mikey? Perhaps he's just the biggest Fedtard evah. :p
Can't blame the fellow for that, no way.

spiceboy
11-15-2009, 02:50 AM
Full interview (in Spanish) here: http://www.magazinedigital.com/reportajes/los_reportajes_de_la_semana/reportaje/cat_id/81

spiceboy
11-15-2009, 02:54 AM
I'm guessing in Spanish he used the verb impresionar, which should not be translated at "impressed" in this context.

It should read ... The thing that shocked me the most, or the thing that affected me the most ...

Thanks for the correction. You explained it very well :)

spiceboy
11-15-2009, 02:56 AM
From what I've read the quote from Rafa actually states that he believes that "extremism" in religion is what has led to the most deaths in history. Somewhat of a valid point when you look at the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc. No religious group has avoided extremism. But he is correct: extremism in anything leads to destruction and evil.

This is what he exactly says in the interview: "Para mí la religión es la mayor causa de mortalidad de la historia." It sounds very clear and firm to me.

Jōris
11-15-2009, 03:27 AM
Nadal accusing Fed of being a juicer IMO

lol that's how I read it too.

FedFan_2007
11-15-2009, 03:49 AM
Fed a juicer? That's a laugh!

sawan66278
11-15-2009, 03:58 AM
This is what he exactly says in the interview: "Para mí la religión es la mayor causa de mortalidad de la historia." It sounds very clear and firm to me.

Not to split hairs, but on the site of the article (advertising the piece), the quote is:

"para mí, en su versión radical, la mayor causa de mortalidad de la historia"

Now, why "en su version radical" was taken out is beyond me.

Arkulari
11-15-2009, 04:37 AM
Un amigo se va a la guerra de Afganistán con el ejército español. ¿Tendría algunas palabras?
Es difícil decir algo. ¡Me parece algo tan increíble irte a la guerra! Sólo el hecho de decir “me voy a la guerra” me parece inconcebible. Prácticamente todas las cosas malas que pasan en la vida son culpa de los radicalismos de cualquier tipo, que desencadenan problemas que podrían evitarse. Uno puede tener aficiones, simpatías, creencias, pero siempre con respeto hacia las opiniones de los demás, sin faltar. Igual que la religión. Uno puede ser religioso, ateo, cristiano, musulmán, lo que sea, pero de aquí a llegar a todas las barbaridades que se han hecho por la religión es demasiado. Para mí la religión es la mayor causa de mortalidad de la historia.


"A friend of yours says that he's going to the Afghanistan war with the Spanish army, what would you say?

It's hard to say something. I think that saying "I'm going to the war" is something so inconceivable. Practically every single bad thing that happens in life can be blamed on any kind of radicalism, that causes issues it can be avoided otherwise.

One can have hobbies, sympathies, beliefs, but always respecting other's people's opinions. Just like religions. One can be religious, an atheist, a christian, a muslim, whatever, but from there to go to all the barbarities that have been done in the name of religion is way too much. For me religion is the biggest cause of mortality in history"

Sadly, war is as innate to the human race, our need to control and make everyone think like we do is what causes them, we just cannot accept differences and not having it all, we always crave what others have and that's why we're never satisfied

Getta
11-15-2009, 05:04 AM
still a divine command makes a duty more stringent.

simplification is needed to the benefit of those who are not sharp crazy about this approach: religion can be a highly powerful and useful tool.

Sadly, war is as innate to the human race, our need to control and make everyone think like we do is what causes them, we just cannot accept differences and not having it all, we always crave what others have and that's why we're never satisfied

Did Rafa really say that?

It's phantasmagorically nonsensical. :o

Arkulari
11-15-2009, 05:06 AM
no, Rafa didn't say that ;)

what he said is in italics

Lopez
11-15-2009, 07:16 AM
Cannot believe how stupid some people can be.

IT IS EVIL PEOPLE THAT COMMIT EVIL ACTS.

Religion is merly used as justification.

The real motives can vary, but are usually centered around greed, power and unreliqushing quest for fame as has already been stated.

Religion does not make someone pick up a gun and kill someone. It is shocking lack of empathy, education and common sense that does this.

"Thou shalt not kill"

"It is one of the basic rules of Islam that it is never acceptable or justifiable to take the life of another".

It is made explicatly clear.

They are only a brainwashed minority. If religion wasn't their justification they would find something else that was.

A study was made with Jewish children. A story from the old testament was given where Moses orders his people to commit genocide. Children approved of this. Change the names in the story to some Chinese names, children didn't accept the actions. Tell how that isn't religion twisting the morals, or are these children just bad to the core?

I seriously doubt that the low-level suicide bombers are pure evil, just brainwashed.

Puschkin
11-15-2009, 08:29 AM
Full interview (in Spanish) here: http://www.magazinedigital.com/reportajes/los_reportajes_de_la_semana/reportaje/cat_id/81
Unfortunately I don't speak Spanish. :o Many thanks in advance to someone providing a full and accurate translation.

Allez
11-15-2009, 10:49 AM
Wow what a controversial interview!!!

Forehander
11-15-2009, 11:07 AM
Holy War = human extinction.

Apemant
11-15-2009, 12:05 PM
For me religion is the biggest cause of mortality in history"

Sadly, war is as innate to the human race, our need to control and make everyone think like we do is what causes them, we just cannot accept differences and not having it all, we always crave what others have and that's why we're never satisfied

Either way, he's simply not right - the biggest cause of deaths is the greed for wealth & power, religion was often the most convenient excuse for those who desired wealth & power (and even that was true only 'till 20th century - from there onward, other excuses are found. Neither Hitler nor Stalin nor Mao Ze Dong killed people in the name of religion). Now if there was no religion, I'm quite sure the ones who desire wealth & power would find another creative way to make ordinary people fight for their causes.

In a sense, one could argue that the lack of knowledge & wisdom is the 'cause' of deaths. Because, if ordinary people were wiser, the rulers would be unable to make them fight for their own agendas. It's questionable, however, if it's even possible to overcome, or the psychology of masses is inherently of the kind that allows for easy manipulation, for whatever reasons (religion being just one of those 'reasons').

andylovesaustin
11-15-2009, 01:44 PM
I don't think RAfa's remarks about religion are particularly earth-shattering. He's a former Catholic, right? A lot of Catholics turn away from organized religion. The history of the Catholic Church isn't particularly stellar--and the Church's power and wealth as well as its hypocrisy are still troubling. Now in the U.S., the Church is opposing universal health care, using the abortion issue as ammunition.

Plus Spain isn't particularly "religious" anymore is it? In fact, I'm going out on a limb to say a lot of European countries do not necessarily reflect any organized religion as they once did.

I agree though, it's not necessarily "religion" that's the culprit. I think it has to do with religion and power. I have never understood why organized any organized religion tries to push its belief down people's throat. That's the problem.
There's separation of church and state for good reason, but some religious people in the U.S. just don't seem to get it--or maybe they "get it," but WANT control. I think it's scary.

superslam77
11-15-2009, 02:04 PM
:eek: Nadal is not as evil as i thought... the boy is starting to grow on me.

Mjau!
11-15-2009, 02:49 PM
Nadal accusing Fed of being a juicer IMO

lol that's how I read it too.

You've arrived at a conclusion that defies logic. "Juice" aids recovery and allows one to train harder. It is one of the main benefits of the PED.

manuel84
11-15-2009, 03:27 PM
What exactly is controversial about this interview? His comments on religion and The Federer are spot on.

Vamoooos

nobama
11-15-2009, 03:31 PM
Now in the U.S., the Church is opposing universal health care, using the abortion issue as ammunition.Abortion is the only reason they oppose it. Were it not for the possibility of federally funded abortions they'd be first in line supporting it. :rolleyes: Just like they support the global warming nonnsense.....except they call it 'creation care'. :rolleyes:

RedFury
11-15-2009, 05:57 PM
At the same time religion is the reason why the current majority of peaceful folks don't go around killing other people.


What does the above mean? Do you honestly think that if people didn't believe in Sky Pixies they'd go around killing others?

Certainly doesn't work that way for me, a Secular Humanist. Nor does it work that way in Western Europe, likely the most secular society in the world -- with much lower crime rates that the very "Enlightened" US of A.

RedFury
11-15-2009, 06:01 PM
I think jocks should keep their retarded opinions to themselves. Roger himself admits to reading no books, and I can imagine Rafa doesn't either. But Nole strikes me as a well-educated bloke.

Irony writes itself -- speaking of "keeping retarded opinions to oneself"...you should practice what you preach.

RedFury
11-15-2009, 06:11 PM
What exactly is controversial about this interview? His comments on religion and The Federer are spot on.

It's "controversial" only in so far as most public figures -- and a great majority of athletes -- dare only talk about religion with kid gloves if at all. OTHO those that embrace it -- see Kaka, the Jesus Minister/footie superstar -- are usually held up as shining beacons of perfection that we should all aspire to emulate.

It's all BS of course, but such is the status quo. So good on Nadal for ripping through it. Image is obviously not everything for him.

momo_momo
11-15-2009, 06:35 PM
I don't think RAfa's remarks about religion are particularly earth-shattering. He's a former Catholic, right? A lot of Catholics turn away from organized religion. The history of the Catholic Church isn't particularly stellar--and the Church's power and wealth as well as its hypocrisy are still troubling. Now in the U.S., the Church is opposing universal health care, using the abortion issue as ammunition.

I am one of those who turned their backs away from RC. Faith does not need a name. Many hypocrites in there, you're right. And many more reasons...

Nadal is miseducated or undereducated. Poor guy should've have done some research so he wouldn't be slammed easily talking things like that. Great vindication though.

Few sports guys can actually sway opinions of the normal person. He isn't one of them.

Sophocles
11-15-2009, 06:45 PM
Either way, he's simply not right - the biggest cause of deaths is the greed for wealth & power, religion was often the most convenient excuse for those who desired wealth & power (and even that was true only 'till 20th century - from there onward, other excuses are found. Neither Hitler nor Stalin nor Mao Ze Dong killed people in the name of religion). Now if there was no religion, I'm quite sure the ones who desire wealth & power would find another creative way to make ordinary people fight for their causes.

In a sense, one could argue that the lack of knowledge & wisdom is the 'cause' of deaths. Because, if ordinary people were wiser, the rulers would be unable to make them fight for their own agendas. It's questionable, however, if it's even possible to overcome, or the psychology of masses is inherently of the kind that allows for easy manipulation, for whatever reasons (religion being just one of those 'reasons').

The trouble with this line of reasoning is that it assumes the powerful are always acting out of self-interest. This simply isn't true. Just because you have power, doesn't mean you can't have deeply-held but misguided ideological beliefs that motivate your actions.

Nole fan
11-15-2009, 06:58 PM
Plus Spain isn't particularly "religious" anymore is it? In fact, I'm going out on a limb to say a lot of European countries do not necessarily reflect any organized religion as they once did.

Yep, that's true. The sign of civilised nations.

Whoever insulting Nadal for his views is retarded. He has an opinion as valid as anyone else's. Period. He's not stupid at all, he's actually a very sweet and clever guy. Obviously he doesn't speak the best English and that can make him look less bright, but he's not. After all, native English-speakers are the worst at languages, so no complains there.

Lalalovesong
11-15-2009, 09:21 PM
Nadal has such a warm personality!

Nole fan
11-15-2009, 10:23 PM
Ok I'm going to offer the full translation of some questions/answers here though not everything because the interview is really long and some questions have already been translated or are not interesting enough... sorry if there are any mistakes.

Q. What does pressure mean to you? Who puts pressure on a player like you?
A. If you mean media pressure, it means very little to me. Pressure for me is more personal. If a player is affected by what the press writes about him, he really can do a lot wrong. First of all because the media criticism is debatable and a semifinal can mean nothing, and so one risks not valuing one title because it's not a Grand Slam or Master Series. It's a bad philosophy thinking that only Grand Slams count. To me every match is vital and important. Only one puts pressure on oneself. I'm calm with that and I know that repeating my achievements of the last 5 years is very difficult, as I had brilliant results, better than I expected. From there you take everything with more peacefulness. If my career was to finish today, I would say that it has been very good. Then you have the pressure of becoming a better player all the time. I want to play well every time I'm on the court and I want to win, but if I lose the Shanghai final i don't go home sad. I go home happy with my level of tennis and conscious that I can't win all the time, specially if your opponent plays better. Matches I lost like that in Beijing against Cilic hurt the most, because I had been playing very well and that day It was disastrous. But all this makes you better, it's part of the game. But it was weird being in and then out of the match with Cilic. That day was really fucked up, not to be able to stand against him, but it all depends on your confidence and rhythm to win.

Q. This year you have only lost ten matches. How painful is a defeat?
A. There are painful losses, o course. The Roland Garros final was very painful.

Q. Despite everything you're a happy man and very lucky in life.
A. Of course I consider myself very lucky in my life. My job is my hobby, playing tennis, and more these days. I'm also gifted in this sport. I've been nº 2 in the world for 5 years. I've also been nº 1. My family is well, united. I still have my longtime friends, a very positive environment and good health, me and my loved ones. Speaking of my tennis career I've been very fortunate.

Q. Does Nadal ever get angry?
A. Of course, like everyone. But I'm not a nutcase, I have a lot of auto control. I'm not the type that gets angry and starts yelling.

Q. Do you remember the last time you cried?
A. Yes, I've cried many times, but I'm not gonna tell now.

Q. Like Federer on court?
A. I've never cried on court. When I lost Wimbledon in 2007 i cried in the locker room. I don't like to cry in public.

Q. What do you worry about apart from your health?
A. You have to be really thoughtless to not worry about everything that happens in this world. I care about poverty, kidnapping, wars, famine, the world crisis. This can be hard but it's harder to see children die because of famine and war.

Q. What it is your idea of a better world?
A. I don't think an ideal world is possible. But i would destroy all weapons. That would be key to a better world. People always talk about poverty but I've been to Chennai, India, many times, and people look happy there. We all should learn from them. There they have nothing, they live on the streets, but you see their faces and they don't lie. Here people have almost everything but when you see them going to work they don't look happy. Here we don't value what we have, it happens to me too.

Q. Are you afraid of anything?
A. Being afraid is part of life. I'm afraid.

Q. Which tennis player do you admire the most?
A. The best tennis player in history is Roger Federer. The most important thing is his talent for the game. I have seen him train many times, but very few I have seen him train with the intensity I do. In fact, never. That impresses me. I'm sure a player like him has trained hard since childhood, but when you see him train he hardly focus. He has the gift to play inspired without actually having to concentrate hard, he makes difficult things look easy.

Q. Do you envy that gift?
A. I don't want you to get this wrong: I'm not envious of him. Of course I would like to win what he has won, but I'm happy with what I have won so far. To be honest, he has innate qualities, he's special.

The rest of questions have been already translated.

elessar
11-15-2009, 10:29 PM
Q. This year you have only lost ten matches. How painful is a defeat?
A. There are painful losses, o course. The Roland Garros final was very painful.

Oh Rafa :hug:
4th round.

Corey Feldman
11-15-2009, 10:36 PM
Oh Rafa :hug:
4th round.:lol:

& he has cried "many times" i see

Nole fan
11-15-2009, 10:51 PM
I'm sure every player cries when he loses, only they do it in the locker rooms. Completely normal. Only retards think men don't cry, :rolleyes:

Corey Feldman
11-15-2009, 10:53 PM
then dont ever laugh at Federer's tears again

SheepleBuster
11-15-2009, 10:56 PM
What a disgusting person. What was impressive about 9/11? Love or hate the US, people died there. It's fun for Nadal to see 3000 people die? Whoever was responsible doesn't matter really.

Sophocles
11-15-2009, 11:04 PM
What a disgusting person. What was impressive about 9/11? Love or hate the US, people died there. It's fun for Nadal to see 3000 people die? Whoever was responsible doesn't matter really.

Obvious mistranslation. See above.

Sunset of Age
11-15-2009, 11:04 PM
What a disgusting person. What was impressive about 9/11? Love or hate the US, people died there. It's fun for Nadal to see 3000 people die? Whoever was responsible doesn't matter really.

WTH are you talking about, misinterpreting his words like that. :o

:retard:

Nole fan
11-15-2009, 11:08 PM
What a disgusting person. What was impressive about 9/11? Love or hate the US, people died there. It's fun for Nadal to see 3000 people die? Whoever was responsible doesn't matter really.

What have you smoked man? Classic overreacting poster.
Nadal didn't say anything like that. He said that the event that most shocked him was 9/11 (in the sense that it was horrible). "I was playing in Madrid trying to gain my first ATP points when that happened. I lost 13 match points. When it was finished I rushed to watch it on TV. Six months before I had been on top of the towers with my family. Next year I visited Ground Zero. The images of the plane crashing and the towers falling still give me the shivers".

Noleta
11-15-2009, 11:14 PM
Ok I'm going to offer the full translation of some questions/answers here though not everything because the interview is really long and some questions have already been translated or are not interesting enough... sorry if there are any mistakes.

Q. What it is your idea of a better world?

A. I don't think an ideal world is possible. But i would destroy all weapons. That would be key to a better world. People always talk about poverty but I've been to Chennai, India, many times, and people look happy there. We all should learn from them. There they have nothing, they live on the streets, but you see their faces and they don't lie. Here people have almost everything but when you see them going to work they don't look happy. Here we don't value what we have, it happens to me too.

Rafa:yeah:

SheepleBuster
11-15-2009, 11:26 PM
What have you smoked man? Classic overreacting poster.
Nadal didn't say anything like that. He said that the event that most shocked him was 9/11 (in the sense that it was horrible). "I was playing in Madrid trying to gain my first ATP points when that happened. I lost 13 match points. When it was finished I rushed to watch it on TV. Six months before I had been on top of the towers with my family. Next year I visited Ground Zero. The images of the plane crashing and the towers falling still give me the shivers".

OK. I read the first translation. So he wasn't impressed then. Cause the first translation was about how he was impressed with 9/11. Very un-Rafa like.

Noleta
11-15-2009, 11:29 PM
OK. I read the first translation. So he wasn't impressed then. Cause the first translation was about how he was impressed with 9/11. Very un-Rafa like.

Who would be?:eek:Where was your logic?

SheepleBuster
11-15-2009, 11:35 PM
Who would be?:eek:Where was your logic?

Dude. I don't know. I was in another forum the other day and people were talking about how the US deserved 911 and stuff. So it's not like I haven't heard it before. And I don't know spanish man ;)

serveandvolley80
11-16-2009, 01:01 AM
Yep, that's true. The sign of civilised nations.

Didint spain have a fascist dictator till the late 70's?

Doesn't Spain have a huge problem with racism in their country? What other civilized country in recent memory were making monkey chants and racist remarks in a soccer stadium full of people, and i can tell you that way more then a few were causing the problem, and this was towards a player on their own team.

Lets not throw the word civilized around too lightly, which is where i will keep my opinion of America to myself because i will probably get the ban stick.

Chiakifug
11-16-2009, 01:14 AM
This thread is crazy. :scared:

serveandvolley80
11-16-2009, 01:32 AM
This thread is crazy. :scared:

So are half the people that post on here, so its a perfect fit.

Chiakifug
11-16-2009, 01:34 AM
So are half the people that post on here, so its a perfect fit.

True that.

Start da Game
11-16-2009, 01:37 AM
Sad but true. In all, it all comes down to sex education, and most of all, the power of women to deny all sex when the bloke just doesn't apply to the very simple rule of 'Hey Silly, Put a Condom On Your Willy!' :shrug:





serve and volley-ers don't wear a condom........they like it aggressive.......

michellej
11-16-2009, 01:48 AM
Disappointing that Nadal mistakingly believes that religion is the basis for most deaths in the world when most wars having nothing to do with religion


Oh really? I suggest you read a few histories of various countries in the world. If you mind is open you will see the role history has played as a instigatory to war over the centuries,

michellej
11-16-2009, 02:05 AM
It'a actually men who are the instigators of war. All that teststerone leads to aggresive behaviour, whether it's bullies in a schoolyard, fights in the school parking lot, fighting over women, ruthless competition in the business world, or territorial grabs for profit leading to full scale war. It's all the same thing.

You can also see this aggressive behavour in males of any mammal.

Meanwhile womwn are maternal because they evolved that way to ensure the survival of the next generation ...they look after children.

So, I guess we had better get used to fighting and war, It's been that way since humans began to inhabit this planet,

cmurray
11-16-2009, 02:45 AM
I think Mr. Nadal sounds very sensible. :shrug: He is, of course, over-simplifying the war issue. War is rarely about just one thing and I guarantee that even if the earth had never had religion, there would still have been wars. It is the way of greedy, power-hungry people to want to subdue and conquer.

Otherwise, he sounds like a guy who is pretty mature for his age. I thought what he said about Federer was the ultimate compliment. Somebody talented enough to make the difficult look easy? Seems about right to me.

ys
11-16-2009, 04:09 AM
Didint spain have a fascist dictator till the late 70's?

From what I've read .. commies all over the world succeeded in branding Franco "fascist dictator", but he was really none of that, he saved his country from leftist plague, and most of Spaniards actually adored him. I could be wrong though.. :)

Getta
11-16-2009, 04:12 AM
strange turn the thread took

Sunset of Age
11-16-2009, 04:13 AM
A very nice, young and well-educated fellow giving his opinions the best he seems to be capable off, in a rather balanced manner, and still folks finding the need to bash him because of that... :rolleyes:

MrChopin
11-16-2009, 04:22 AM
It'a actually men who are the instigators of war. All that teststerone leads to aggresive behaviour, whether it's bullies in a schoolyard, fights in the school parking lot, fighting over women, ruthless competition in the business world, or territorial grabs for profit leading to full scale war. It's all the same thing.

You can also see this aggressive behavour in males of any mammal.

Meanwhile womwn are maternal because they evolved that way to ensure the survival of the next generation ...they look after children.

What about when a female praying mantis eats a male after mating?

Getta
11-16-2009, 04:29 AM
What about when a female praying mantis eats a male after mating?

it's rarer in female mantises in the wild than in captive mantises kept in a cage

cmurray
11-16-2009, 04:44 AM
it's rarer in female mantises in the wild than in captive mantises kept in a cage

:lol:

MrChopin
11-16-2009, 05:10 AM
it's rarer in female mantises in the wild than in captive mantises kept in a cage

I'm missing the conclusion here... men scientists built the cages and encourage female mantis violence?

acefreely
11-16-2009, 05:48 AM
Oh really? I suggest you read a few histories of various countries in the world. If you mind is open you will see the role history has played as a instigatory to war over the centuries,

Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me.

elessar
11-16-2009, 09:43 AM
From what I've read .. commies all over the world succeeded in branding Franco "fascist dictator", but he was really none of that, he saved his country from leftist plague, and most of Spaniards actually adored him. I could be wrong though.. :)
You are.

MariaV
11-16-2009, 09:49 AM
Oh Rafa :hug:
4th round.

I'm not the greatest specialist in Spanish but I think Rafa meant the ending of Roland Garros. :rolleyes: :cuckoo: :retard:

elessar
11-16-2009, 10:01 AM
He was asked about painful losses, the RG final was a joyful occasion (he took no part in) he can't possibly have been refering to that :D

Castafiore
11-16-2009, 10:06 AM
Reading the Spanish interview, I'm guessing - like Maria - that he meant "the ending of Roland Garros" or, how it ended for him.

Sophocles
11-16-2009, 10:07 AM
It'a actually men who are the instigators of war. All that teststerone leads to aggresive behaviour, whether it's bullies in a schoolyard, fights in the school parking lot, fighting over women, ruthless competition in the business world, or territorial grabs for profit leading to full scale war. It's all the same thing.

You can also see this aggressive behavour in males of any mammal.

Meanwhile womwn are maternal because they evolved that way to ensure the survival of the next generation ...they look after children.

Err, well look, men are more aggressive than women, but if you're going to accept that generalization, you also have to accept that women are more manipulative than men, & frequently manipulate men into fighting (or competing) over them because it flatters their egos. They are also frequent cheer-leaders in wars & fights, partly because they like to see their men winning. Remember, behind every man there is a good woman. That goes for war-mongers too.

MariaV
11-16-2009, 10:08 AM
He was asked about painful losses, the RG final was a joyful occasion (he took no part in) he can't possibly have been refering to that :D

:cuckoo: :retard: :rolleyes: Of course he took no part in the RG final which was the most boring occasion for a looong time. :zzz: :zzz: Do I have to add that he meant the ending of Roland Garros for him this year? That was a painful loss to that evil evil Söderling, poor Rafa was in pain. :shrug: :rolleyes:

MariaV
11-16-2009, 10:09 AM
Reading the Spanish interview, I'm guessing he meant "the ending of Roland Garros" or, how it ended for him.

Exactly Hilde, some numbnuts here just cannot comprehend. :shrug:

JolánGagó
11-16-2009, 10:19 AM
Exactly Hilde, some numbnuts here just cannot comprehend. :shrug:

They do comprehend, just can't properly function without their daily fit of mindless hatred early in the morning.

MariaV
11-16-2009, 10:34 AM
They do comprehend, just can't properly function without their daily fit of mindless hatred early in the morning.

:shrug: Cannot say which of the reason's right. Could always be that they really are that stupid. :shrug:
But looks like they're desperate, nothing else to pick at. :awww:

bokehlicious
11-16-2009, 10:54 AM
Reading the Spanish interview, I'm guessing - like Maria - that he meant "the ending of Roland Garros" or, how it ended for him.

:cuckoo: :retard: :rolleyes: Of course he took no part in the RG final which was the most boring occasion for a looong time. :zzz: :zzz: Do I have to add that he meant the ending of Roland Garros for him this year? That was a painful loss to that evil evil Söderling, poor Rafa was in pain. :shrug: :rolleyes:

Exactly Hilde, some numbnuts here just cannot comprehend. :shrug:

They do comprehend, just can't properly function without their daily fit of mindless hatred early in the morning.

:shrug: Cannot say which of the reason's right. Could always be that they really are that stupid. :shrug:
But looks like they're desperate, nothing else to pick at. :awww:

:baby: :baby: :baby: :lol: :hug:

MariaV
11-16-2009, 10:58 AM
Wow, the chief whiner and tantrum-thrower himself has arrived. :D :baby: :baby: :baby: :hug:

bokehlicious
11-16-2009, 11:13 AM
Wow, the chief whiner and tantrum-thrower himself has arrived. :D :baby: :baby: :baby: :hug:

:lol: I'm not in the same league as you fangirls... :shrug: :o :p

MariaV
11-16-2009, 11:18 AM
:lol: I'm not in the same league as you fangirls... :shrug: :o :p

Of course you're way above any of us in your whining and tantrum-throwing abilities, that's what I was saying. :shrug: :worship: :bowdown: :worship: :bowdown: :worship: :bowdown: :worship: :bowdown:

elessar
11-16-2009, 01:03 PM
Just because this year's final didn't have the drama of last year is no reason to call it boring, Maria :rolleyes:

(I had to double check I wasn't in the chat thread :lol:)

Sharp
11-16-2009, 02:04 PM
any English translation of this interview?

Nole fan
11-16-2009, 02:49 PM
Didint spain have a fascist dictator till the late 70's?

Doesn't Spain have a huge problem with racism in their country? What other civilized country in recent memory were making monkey chants and racist remarks in a soccer stadium full of people, and i can tell you that way more then a few were causing the problem, and this was towards a player on their own team.

Lets not throw the word civilized around too lightly, which is where i will keep my opinion of America to myself because i will probably get the ban stick.

Oh I see, all you know about Spain is reduced to a single incident during a soccer match. Nice. :rolleyes:
Don't talk about racism when that is present EVERYWHERE, sadly, not one country escapes. And insulting a player from the rival team (it was not his team, not even his stadium) is a tactic crowds use to put pressure on the rival, as unfortunate as it was. Anyway soccer brings the worst in people, but that has nothing to do with Spain being racist or not.
As for the dictator, yeah that's true, so what's your point? that was over 30 years ago man!

Nole fan
11-16-2009, 02:54 PM
It'a actually men who are the instigators of war. All that teststerone leads to aggresive behaviour, whether it's bullies in a schoolyard, fights in the school parking lot, fighting over women, ruthless competition in the business world, or territorial grabs for profit leading to full scale war. It's all the same thing.

You can also see this aggressive behavour in males of any mammal.

Meanwhile womwn are maternal because they evolved that way to ensure the survival of the next generation ...they look after children.

So, I guess we had better get used to fighting and war, It's been that way since humans began to inhabit this planet,

Exactly, you just read my mind. :worship:
But you got one bit wrong. Animals don't start wars or **** or kill one of their own (with exceptions) and they're not cruel or sadistic. Animals are much better than humans, that's for sure. Anyone that has a dog knows that.

Jōris
11-16-2009, 03:01 PM
You've arrived at a conclusion that defies logic. "Juice" aids recovery and allows one to train harder. It is one of the main benefits of the PED.

Juice in the general term. If Nadal was saying Federer is doped (not likely he is saying this) I was thinking something like Epogen.

elessar
11-16-2009, 03:57 PM
Exactly, you just read my mind. :worship:
But you got one bit wrong. Animals don't start wars or **** or kill one of their own (with exceptions) and they're not cruel or sadistic. Animals are much better than humans, that's for sure. Anyone that has a dog knows that.
:haha:

RedFury
11-16-2009, 05:58 PM
From what I've read .. commies all over the world succeeded in branding Franco "fascist dictator", but he was really none of that, he saved his country from leftist plague, and most of Spaniards actually adored him. I could be wrong though.. :)

That the Socialist Party (PSOE), has been in control of Spain for 19 out of the past 27 years (with two still remaining in ZP's term) of democracy, clearly demonstrates that you are, indeed, wrong.

If anything, the Spanish Right needs to disassociate itself from any remaining ties to his regime -- fossils such as Fraga Iribarne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Fraga_Iribarne) come to mind -- if they wish to become a consistent alternative to power. It wouldn't hurt either if they quit holding hands with the CC for most Spaniards realize how out of touch with reality traditional Catholicism is. Witness the 66% nation-wide support (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Spain) in favor of gay marriage which obviously includes a high number of right-wing voters.

elessar
11-16-2009, 06:22 PM
This goes a little bit further than right and left.
A couple hundred thousand people summarily executed and concentration camps are usually a big no-no these days in most civilized countries.

Snoo Foo
11-16-2009, 07:10 PM
What a disgusting person.

Cyrusking whatever his name is.

I am sure he is nominated already but I want him to come here and talk to me openly.

He came to my chat thread that is used by a very little circle of friends only badrepped my post with the words-- I am happy that your classmate is dead.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc179/SnooFoo828/emoticon/a11.gif

JolánGagó
11-16-2009, 08:09 PM
This goes a little bit further than right and left.
A couple hundred thousand people summarily executed and concentration camps are usually a big no-no these days in most civilized countries.

and that happened when and where?

Filo V.
11-16-2009, 08:46 PM
I respect the fact Nadal and Federer can admit to crying or can cry openly, and not worry about their image or what people think of them. It shows how much passion they truly have for tennis.

And as far as his comment on religion, he is almost right. Organized religion IS a source of major problems in the world. But it is the people who follow it that are the problem, not religion/God itself.

RedFury
11-16-2009, 09:38 PM
and that happened when and where?

Un Catalan facha? Vamos bien.

elessar, it most certainly is a right/left divide when it comes to Franco's legacy. To this day you'll find people in Spain longing for "the good old days" -- most of them, fortunately, of rather advanced age. Unfortunately, many have managed to pass on their distorted view of Franco's dictatorship unto younger generations who never lived under the regime. Looks like this Gagó chap might be one of them. If so, you're likely to hear an endless stream of revisionist BS as in some circles (small, but by no means lacking in power)Franco's ghost has attained "Dear Leader" status. In fact more than one would love to see a continuation of his regime, Democracy be dammed. They are the ones that aften mumble -- and sometimes, through the sheer courage of numbers, shout -- "con Franco "X" no hubiese pasado." For "X" insert any number of 'evildoings' brought about by progress and modernization.

By the by, I grew-up under Franco and my own father was an avowed Franquista. But not everyone is immune to indoctrination as we well know.

Anyway, a couple of pertinent cites:

Los desaparecidos de Franco - Un pasado doloroso al descubierto (http://www.ediec.org/es/noticias/articulo/article/francos-disappeared-a-painful-past-uncovered/)

...Historians struggle to agree on how many bodies may lie in mass graves, as it is an impossible question to answer with certainty. Francisco Espinosa, a historian who carried out the most comprehensive research of mass graves in Andalusia and Extremadura in the west of Spain, believes as many as 100,000 people could have gone missing, their remains lying across the country.

"It is difficult to say though, as no national research has been done - just on a province by province basis - and records have been destroyed," he cautions.

Professor Paul Preston, a British historian from the London School of Economics, is writing a book on the slaughter of innocents called The Spanish Holocaust.

"There were at least 101,000 people whose names we know - perhaps more. But of those lying in mass graves, I would estimate that there are at least as many as 30,000 across Spain."

He is amazed at the lack of awareness outside Spain of the crimes committed by Franco and efforts to trace his victims. "I don't think people have the slightest idea. It is big news to them. Franco still has an amazingly good press in the Anglo-Saxon world." -- underline mine. More at source.

Truth is atrocities, as wont to happen in war and especially in a civil war, were committed by both sides. But the revisionism I alluded to earlier has to do with what Franco did after he came to power. Sure, if you agreed -- or simply didn't care -- with his politics/cies, chances were you'd be quite safe. But if you didn't, or worse, said as much...well, many (as the article says, we may never know how may) simply "disappeared."

Further reading material:

More than 30 years after Franco’s death, the fate of 114,226 disappeared people still divides Spain (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/spain/090109/trying-the-dead-generalisimo-murder)

Sad to say it, but Spain is yet to fully heal from that putrid period in our history.

Everko
11-16-2009, 09:45 PM
Exactly, you just read my mind. :worship:
But you got one bit wrong. Animals don't start wars or **** or kill one of their own (with exceptions) and they're not cruel or sadistic. Animals are much better than humans, that's for sure. Anyone that has a dog knows that.

Bullshit of the highest order. Animals fight amongst one another all the damn time. Look at the chimpazees, they figth every damn day.

I will not sugarcoat this. People like you are what seperate the human race apart, because you think humans are something evil and soemthing not worthy.

Sophocles
11-17-2009, 12:13 AM
Bullshit of the highest order. Animals fight amongst one another all the damn time. Look at the chimpazees, they figth every damn day.

I will not sugarcoat this. People like you are what seperate the human race apart, because you think humans are something evil and soemthing not worthy.

This poem captures the difference:

Animals (Walt Whitman)


I think i could turn and live with animals ,
they are so placid and self-contained
I stand and look at them long and long .

They do not sweat and whine about their condition ,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins ,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God ,
Not one is dissatisfied ,
not one is demented with the mania of owning things ,
Not one kneels to another ,
nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago ,
Not one is respectable or industrious over the whole earth .

paseo
11-17-2009, 12:44 AM
Exactly, you just read my mind. :worship:
But you got one bit wrong. Animals don't start wars or **** or kill one of their own (with exceptions) and they're not cruel or sadistic. Animals are much better than humans, that's for sure. Anyone that has a dog knows that.

What?? No!!

Sunset of Age
11-17-2009, 12:56 AM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3263/2764160342_50f5a619f3.jpg

Nice interview by Rafa, don't see why it's so 'controversial', though.

star
11-17-2009, 01:18 AM
This poem captures the difference:

Animals (Walt Whitman)


I think i could turn and live with animals ,
they are so placid and self-contained
I stand and look at them long and long .

They do not sweat and whine about their condition ,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins ,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God ,
Not one is dissatisfied ,
not one is demented with the mania of owning things ,
Not one kneels to another ,
nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago ,
Not one is respectable or industrious over the whole earth .

Missing some knowledge about pack and herd animals. :lol: Definitely the pack leader is not benevolent. The female leaders of both wolves and wild dogs ruthlessly prevent mating of others and will either kill offspring not their own or will take them away from the mother and nurse them herself -- preventing contact by the mother. That's just an example. It's not the peaceable kingdom in animal land.

out_here_grindin
11-17-2009, 01:51 AM
This poem captures the difference:

Animals (Walt Whitman)


I think i could turn and live with animals ,
they are so placid and self-contained
I stand and look at them long and long .

They do not sweat and whine about their condition ,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins ,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God ,
Not one is dissatisfied ,
not one is demented with the mania of owning things ,
Not one kneels to another ,
nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago ,
Not one is respectable or industrious over the whole earth .

They do however kill the weak ones of the pack/tribe/pride. Only the strong survive in infancy. They do not help the weak.

I gotta agree with Everko on this one. You have to make an effort to get along with your fellow people. Are we perfect? Absolutely not, but thinking animals are better is certainly not the way to approach mankind.

Guy Haines
11-17-2009, 02:05 AM
This interview is an off-court example of why Nadal is my favorite current player. He isn't always my favorite to watch -- no one player is. Though he is my favorite amongst the current ATP when he's playing his best tennis. But as far as off-court goes, I like what he says and the codes he espouses.

Especially in post-Franco Spain, what he's saying about religion might not seem controversial. But from an international sports star, it's pretty uncommon. You just don't hear big athletes being critical of religion. (Or his Spanish contemporaries for that matter.) Has another tennis player made these kinds of comments? Tennis is fairly safe.

He's his uncle's nephew in terms of viewpoint on the subject, but has his own way of putting it. I like what he says about wealth and happiness. He's more interesting and articulate in Spanish; I sometimes wish he'd do more English-speaking interviews in Spanish with a translator.

It's refreshing that this thread arrived without certain Mirnyisms and cunning linguist turban-shooters around (thus far) to immediately drag it down to the lowest common denominator.

Power and religion tend to be inextricably wrapped around each other when it comes to war. It seems a mug's game to say that power or the quest for it alone (as opposed to religion) is responsible for war.

fast_clay
11-17-2009, 02:33 AM
rats are better than us...
BOf1awNHmf8
They don't eat, don't sleep
They don't feed, they don't seethe
Bare their gums when they moan and squeak
Lick the dirt off a larger one's feet
They don't push, don't crowd
Congregate until they're much too loud
F*** to procreate till they are dead
Drink the blood of their so called best friend

They don't scurry when something bigger comes their way
Don't pack themselves together and run as one
Don't sh!t where they're not supposed to
Don't take what's not theirs, they don't compare

They don't scam, don't fight
Don't oppress an equals given rights
Starve the poor so they can be well fed
Line their holes with the dead ones bread

They don't scurry when something bigger comes their way
Don't pack themselves together and run as one (2x)
Don't shit where they're not supposed to
Don't take what's not theirs, they don't compare...

Rats...They don't compare (2x)
Ben, the two of us need look no more (6X)

out_here_grindin
11-17-2009, 02:55 AM
Rats also can't vomit.

Thus Rats > humans

fangirl
11-17-2009, 03:42 AM
He speaks so much sense that it turns me on a lot.

Extremist hating FTW. Do me Rafa.

jmsx521
11-17-2009, 05:44 AM
"The Roland Garros final was very painful." I think he forgot he didn't really get to the final... unless it was very painful for him to see Soderling lose the final match. I think it was obvious mistake of his memory.

I agree with him on religion though. This is also the perfect thread for my signature's links; great clarification on religions, money, wars, power, etc. Enjoy the movies!

JolánGagó
11-17-2009, 07:05 AM
Un Catalan facha? Vamos bien.

uh? I asked elessar where and when there was "a couple hundreds thousands of executed and concentration camps". If you have the answer (data, not BS) you can reply too, otherwise refrain from unwelcomed , baseless personal remarks and assumptions or you will be reported. Save your indoctrinated bullshit for your children please.

Sophocles
11-17-2009, 10:20 AM
Missing some knowledge about pack and herd animals. :lol: Definitely the pack leader is not benevolent. The female leaders of both wolves and wild dogs ruthlessly prevent mating of others and will either kill offspring not their own or will take them away from the mother and nurse them herself -- preventing contact by the mother. That's just an example. It's not the peaceable kingdom in animal land.

Whitman isn't saying it's peaceful in animal land. He's saying animals don't experience the needless *inner* turmoil that humans do. That's all.

"Kneeling" is different from "being scared of somebody more powerful than you". Kneeling is a formal acknowledgement of another's superior dignity & authority.

Sophocles
11-17-2009, 10:24 AM
They do however kill the weak ones of the pack/tribe/pride. Only the strong survive in infancy. They do not help the weak.

I gotta agree with Everko on this one. You have to make an effort to get along with your fellow people. Are we perfect? Absolutely not, but thinking animals are better is certainly not the way to approach mankind.

I didn't quote Whitman as support for the view that animals are better than humans. That is not my position. It isn't even Whitman's. I quoted it in support of Everko's point that if we *are* inferior in any respect, it's in the way we judge ourselves as a species so harshly. Whitman's poem is reminds us that animals don't do this. (And obviously, they can't.)

Nole fan
11-17-2009, 10:48 AM
Bullshit of the highest order. Animals fight amongst one another all the damn time. Look at the chimpazees, they figth every damn day.

I will not sugarcoat this. People like you are what seperate the human race apart, because you think humans are something evil and soemthing not worthy.

Yes I think that and not any one of you will change my mind about it, so don't try. Surely it is a trait of the human race to respect different opinions. :rolleyes:
When I see what humans do to other living creatures (and I'm not going to start a debate here since it's off topic) I feel we are not worthy, yes. But as usual the rest of humans don't care about that, as long as they have their food, clothes, entertainment, medicines...

Apemant
11-17-2009, 12:30 PM
The trouble with this line of reasoning is that it assumes the powerful are always acting out of self-interest. This simply isn't true. Just because you have power, doesn't mean you can't have deeply-held but misguided ideological beliefs that motivate your actions.

I agree; however, ideology is not the same thing as religion. You could have ideological beliefs which have nothing to do with religion. They could be nationality, socialism ... even justice. There is no ideology that can't be transformed into something that sparks mass murders. Religion is just one of them - not even the most terrible.

Apemant
11-17-2009, 12:40 PM
Oh really? I suggest you read a few histories of various countries in the world. If you mind is open you will see the role history has played as a instigatory to war over the centuries,

On the contrary, the poster you quoted was right. Most wars weren't caused by religion; in fact, except this latest war on terrorism and such, almost every war US participated in, had nothing to do with religion.

Let's see:

- wars against Indians: check
- the war for independence: check
- the civil war: check
- the second world war: check
- korea: check
- vietnam: check

Which of these wars above was caused by religion? I'd say, none of them.

I believe you should take your own advice and open your mind. Only, don't try too hard, because - as they say - if you open your mind too much, your brain might fall out! :eek: :devil:

Sophocles
11-17-2009, 12:47 PM
I agree; however, ideology is not the same thing as religion. You could have ideological beliefs which have nothing to do with religion. They could be nationality, socialism ... even justice. There is no ideology that can't be transformed into something that sparks mass murders. Religion is just one of them - not even the most terrible.

I agree, except that I think religions ARE ideologies, just peculiarly irrational ones with supernatural elements that make their proponents more prone to fanaticism than most other ideologies do.

Apemant
11-17-2009, 12:48 PM
Exactly, you just read my mind. :worship:
But you got one bit wrong. Animals don't start wars or **** or kill one of their own (with exceptions) and they're not cruel or sadistic. Animals are much better than humans, that's for sure. Anyone that has a dog knows that.

This is also not true at all. The only reason why we can't say animals are 'sadistic' is because they lack the understanding neccessary for something to be called 'sadistic'. For example, when a cat tortures a mouse in a very cruel way, it's not REALLY sadistic because the cat doesn't do it fully aware of the mouse's pain.

But other than that, animals are every bit as cruel as people, even more so, exactly because they are incapable of feeling empathy, so there's nothing to stop them from doing something cruel if their impulses tell them to do it. (Except perhaps several species, like dolphins, elephants, great apes etc. But, that's open for debates.)

In other words, nature itself is extremely 'cruel'. Except, of course, if you define 'cruelty' as something that requires conscioussness about itself (i.e. being cruel). Then only people, by very definition, are capable of real cruelty; other species lack the self-consciousness.

Sophocles
11-17-2009, 12:51 PM
On the contrary, the poster you quoted was right. Most wars weren't caused by religion; in fact, except this latest war on terrorism and such, almost every war US participated in, had nothing to do with religion.

Let's see:

- wars against Indians: check
- the war for independence: check
- the civil war: check
- the second world war: check
- korea: check
- vietnam: check

Which of these wars above was caused by religion? I'd say, none of them.

I believe you should take your own advice and open your mind. Only, don't try too hard, because - as they say - if you open your mind too much, your brain might fall out! :eek: :devil:

Religion certainly *came into* some of those wars. Many Indians were forcibly converted to Christianity. War of Independence - main reasons people had emigrated to the colonies were religious. Civil War - both sides had religious arguments. The 3 others it's more tenuous, but part of the animus against Communism was its godlessness. 2nd World War was different as for once the Americans didn't actually start it.

Sophocles
11-17-2009, 12:52 PM
In other words, nature itself is extremely 'cruel'. Except, of course, if you define 'cruelty' as something that requires conscioussness about itself (i.e. being cruel). Then only people, by very definition, are capable of real cruelty; other species lack the self-consciousness.

But that's precisely the point. Unless there's a god. Then you can blame him for nature's "cruelty".

Apemant
11-17-2009, 12:54 PM
I agree, except that I think religions ARE ideologies, just peculiarly irrational ones with supernatural elements that make their proponents more prone to fanaticism than most other ideologies do.

Of course that they are ideologies. A brand of ideologies. One of various types of ideologies.

More prone to fanaticism? I don't think so... I can hardly imagine a religious fanatic as blinded by his ideology, as Josef Stalin, for example.

And don't get me started about irrationality. Every natural impulse is 'irrational' by definition, because natural impulses don't require reason to function. Which means, each time you do something on impulse, you're acting irrational. 99% of people are irrational 99% of the time. Myself included; for example, there is nothing rational about my desire to answer your post. Nor is there anything rational in your desire to post it in the first place. :devil:

Apemant
11-17-2009, 01:06 PM
Whitman isn't saying it's peaceful in animal land. He's saying animals don't experience the needless *inner* turmoil that humans do. That's all.

"Kneeling" is different from "being scared of somebody more powerful than you". Kneeling is a formal acknowledgement of another's superior dignity & authority.

The only reason animals don't do that is because they are not capable of doing that, because then lack the self-awareness required for it.

Going with that argument to the extreme would get you to claim that rocks are even better than animals. Not only no rock has ever kneeled before another rock, but also rocks never willingly cause pain to anyone. Rocks are also very clean, they don't need to eat and shit, they don't need to engage in any sort of evil activities. :devil:

Of course, that would be nonsensical - as much it is nonsensical to consider animals 'better' than people, just because they (animals) lack the neccessary capabilities to be considered 'really evil'.

Everko
11-17-2009, 02:06 PM
Yes I think that and not any one of you will change my mind about it, so don't try. Surely it is a trait of the human race to respect different opinions. :rolleyes:
When I see what humans do to other living creatures (and I'm not going to start a debate here since it's off topic) I feel we are not worthy, yes. But as usual the rest of humans don't care about that, as long as they have their food, clothes, entertainment, medicines...

why associate with poeple on a messageboard then?

I don't want to be associated with a person who thinks I'm less than a bird.

Everko
11-17-2009, 02:14 PM
Of course, that would be nonsensical - as much it is nonsensical to consider animals 'better' than people, just because they (animals) lack the neccessary capabilities to be considered 'really evil'.

:worship:

This also becomes an interesting question when regarding aliens and their ability to decipher evil(in theory), but that's another topic.

Everko
11-17-2009, 02:16 PM
Yes I think that and not any one of you will change my mind about it, so don't try. Surely it is a trait of the human race to respect different opinions. :rolleyes:
When I see what humans do to other living creatures (and I'm not going to start a debate here since it's off topic) I feel we are not worthy, yes. But as usual the rest of humans don't care about that, as long as they have their food, clothes, entertainment, medicines...

and another thing. Are you part of the "humans" we are discussing here? Or are you above our evilness?

Sophocles
11-17-2009, 03:26 PM
Of course that they are ideologies. A brand of ideologies. One of various types of ideologies.

More prone to fanaticism? I don't think so... I can hardly imagine a religious fanatic as blinded by his ideology, as Josef Stalin, for example.

And don't get me started about irrationality. Every natural impulse is 'irrational' by definition, because natural impulses don't require reason to function. Which means, each time you do something on impulse, you're acting irrational. 99% of people are irrational 99% of the time. Myself included; for example, there is nothing rational about my desire to answer your post. Nor is there anything rational in your desire to post it in the first place. :devil:

I'm not sure Stalin *was* an ideological fanatic. Just a typically callous Russian tyrant with a power complex. Pol Pot I might give you. But then Marxism shares a number of things in common with religion - an historical end-point with some kind of salvation, unfalsifiability, forcing people to believe things for their own good, etc.

Let's not confuse non-rational with irrational. I agree that many things we do are done without reasoning (or at least prior reasoning), & are therefore non-rational. IRrational means not only non-reasoning, but contrary to reason. With its emphasis on faith, religion is *deliberately* irrational, which is kind of weird.

Sophocles
11-17-2009, 03:30 PM
The only reason animals don't do that is because they are not capable of doing that, because then lack the self-awareness required for it.

Going with that argument to the extreme would get you to claim that rocks are even better than animals. Not only no rock has ever kneeled before another rock, but also rocks never willingly cause pain to anyone. Rocks are also very clean, they don't need to eat and shit, they don't need to engage in any sort of evil activities. :devil:

Of course, that would be nonsensical - as much it is nonsensical to consider animals 'better' than people, just because they (animals) lack the neccessary capabilities to be considered 'really evil'.

Of course, and no doubt Whitman expected this to occur to his reader. The poem is not about how animals are better than humans, but about how we might be better men.

out_here_grindin
11-17-2009, 03:32 PM
Nole fan I have a question.

What's more tragic. The genocides of the Hutus and Tutsis and Armenians or the passenger pigeon driven to extinction by humans?

RedFury
11-17-2009, 03:46 PM
uh? I asked elessar where and when there was "a couple hundreds thousands of executed and concentration camps". If you have the answer (data, not BS) you can reply too, otherwise refrain from unwelcomed , baseless personal remarks and assumptions or you will be reported. Save your indoctrinated bullshit for your children please.

Given and hand-waved away as expected. (http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=9325761&postcount=143)

Report away, stooly.

RedFury
11-17-2009, 03:54 PM
This interview is an off-court example of why Nadal is my favorite current player. He isn't always my favorite to watch -- no one player is. Though he is my favorite amongst the current ATP when he's playing his best tennis. But as far as off-court goes, I like what he says and the codes he espouses.

Especially in post-Franco Spain, what he's saying about religion might not seem controversial. But from an international sports star, it's pretty uncommon. You just don't hear big athletes being critical of religion. (Or his Spanish contemporaries for that matter.) Has another tennis player made these kinds of comments? Tennis is fairly safe.

This. Exactly right. Again, all credit to Nadal for not "playing it safe" and getting away from the usual platitudes we're so used to hearing from tennis players. Bottom line: he has nothing to gain and possibly, much to lose by speaking so candidly.

Power and religion tend to be inextricably wrapped around each other when it comes to war. It seems a mug's game to say that power or the quest for it alone (as opposed to religion) is responsible for war.

Three card monte to be exact. Well put.

JolánGagó
11-17-2009, 04:03 PM
Given and hand-waved away as expected. (http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=9325761&postcount=143)Report away, stooly.

Nowhere in your copy&pasted piece is proof that there were "a couple of hundreds thousands executed and concentration camps". This kind of BS may be enough to impress your regular public, whatever that is, but fail to impress an average informed adult audience.

Please refrain from personal attacks in the future or you'll be reported. Second warning.

RedFury
11-17-2009, 04:04 PM
Rafa talks about his year in Guardian interview:

Rafael Nadal talks about the personal and physical problems that have disrupted his season as he prepares to head to London for the ATP Tour World Finals (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/nov/17/rafael-nadal-interview-atp-world-tour-finals)

Not as good a read as the one that occupies us here, but still interesting.

RedFury
11-17-2009, 04:32 PM
Nowhere in your copy&pasted piece is proof that there were "a couple of hundreds thousands executed and concentration camps". This kind of BS may be enough to impress your regular public, whatever that is, but fail to impress an average informed adult audience.

Then stop hand-waving it away and provide counter-evidence. Should be real easy for you to do seeing as it is "BS."

I'll note that there are confirmed lists of over 100,000 "desaparecidos" not 200,000 as elessar originally asserted -- however if that makes you feel better, it says more about you than it does about the subject being discussed.

Please refrain from personal attacks in the future or you'll be reported. Second warning.

Oh mine, what a little power trip you appear to be on! Cute, really. Do you honestly think I give a sh*t about your faux "warnings"? Or for that matter, getting banned from this forum? Look at my posts numbers and the years I've been here -- shows you how important this place is in my life.

Like I said, report away and stop acting like a wannabe Generalisimo -- you're terrible at it anyway.

Enjoy.

Nole fan
11-17-2009, 05:12 PM
Hey people take it easy, specially you Everko. I couldn't care less if you want to associate with me or not. :rolleyes:
I'm not saying all humans are the same, of course a lot of them do care about other living creatures aside themselves. But the vast majority do not. It's not wrong to love animals at the same level than humans, love is not exclusive you know? Even though some of you are so square that can't understand something like that, and it doesn't mean that I don't care for humans or don't love them. I'm critisizing the human race as a whole, not individuals. I feel for human tragedy of course, but I don't think that we can treat animals like we do just because they're not human or less worthy. Get that? End of the story.