Top 4 of Everything [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Top 4 of Everything

lessthanjake
07-30-2009, 12:33 AM
Top 4 of everything in the Open Era:



Best Players
1. Roger Federer
2. Bjorn Borg
3. Rod Laver
4. Pete Sampras

Best Clay Court Players
1. Bjorn Borg
2. Rafael Nadal
3. Ivan Lendl
4. Mats Wilander

Best Grass Court Players
1. Pete Sampras
2. Roger Federer
3. Bjorn Borg
4a. John McEnroe
4b. Rod Laver

Best Slow Hard Court Players
1. Andre Agassi
2. Roger Federer
3. Pete Sampras
4. Ivan Lendl

Best Fast Hard Court Players
1. Roger Federer
2. Pete Sampras
3. Ivan Lendl
4. John McEnroe

Best Indoor Hard/Carpet Players
1. John McEnroe
2. Ivan Lendl
3. Pete Sampras
4. Boris Becker

Best Forehand
1. Roger Federer
2. Ivan Lendl
3. Rafael Nadal
4. Pete Sampras

Best One-Handed Backhand
1. Gustavo Kuerten
2. Ken Rosewall
3. Rod Laver
4. Stefan Edberg

Best Two-Handed Backhand
1. David Nalbandian
2. Marat Safin
3. Andre Agassi
4. Bjorn Borg

Best Serve
1. Ivo Karlovic
2. Goran Ivanisevic
3. Pete Sampras
4. Andy Roddick

Best Return of Serve
1. Andre Agassi
2. Jimmy Connors
3. Lleyton Hewitt
4. David Nalbandian

Best Volleys
1. Stefan Edberg
2. John McEnroe
3. Pete Sampras
4. Tim Henman

Best Drop Shot
1. Guillermo Coria
2. Manuel Orantes
3. Marcelo Rios
4. Fabrice Santoro

Best Lob
1. Lleyton Hewitt
2. Jimmy Connors
3. Ken Rosewall
4. Michael Chang

Best Overhead Smash
1. Pete Sampras
2. Yannick Noah
3. John McEnroe
4. Andy Roddick

Best Movement
1. Rafael Nadal
2. Bjorn Borg
3. Roger Federer
4. Lleyton Hewitt

Best Year of Tennis Ever Played
1. Rod Laver 1969
2. Roger Federer 2006
3. John McEnroe 1984
4. Ivan Lendl 1985



Discuss.

JediFed
07-30-2009, 12:36 AM
Best Fast Hard Court Players
1. Roger Federer
2. Pete Sampras
3. Ivan Lendl
4. John McEnroe


Mac better then Connors on Grass, Connors better then Mac on Hard. 12 straight US Open semis and 5 titles?

lessthanjake
07-30-2009, 12:51 AM
Mac better then Connors on Grass, Connors better then Mac on Hard. 12 straight US Open semis and 5 titles?

12 straight US Open semis is not all a reflection of his prowess on fast hard courts. The US Open has only been played on DecoTurf since 1978. Before that it was played on clay for a few years, and grass before that. In reality, Connors had 8 straight semis on US Open hard courts, with 3 wins.

McEnroe won the US Open on DecoTurf 4 times and was a runner up once, as well as a semifinalist 3 times. Connors won the US Open on DecoTurf 3 times, was never a runner up, but was a semifinalist 7 times. I consider an extra win and an extra runner up appearance to be worth more than 4 extra semifinals, hence I put McEnroe ahead of Connors.

It is close, though, and I almost put Connors ahead of McEnroe by virtue of the fact that he won far more lesser tournaments on hard courts.

EDIT: Also, McEnroe holds a 3-1 head to head lead against Connors in the US Open on hard courts.

JediFed
07-30-2009, 12:57 AM
12 straight US Open semis is not all a reflection of his prowess on fast hard courts. The US Open has only been played on DecoTurf since 1978. Before that it was played on clay for a few years, and grass before that. In reality, Connors had 8 straight semis on US Open hard courts, with 3 wins.


I had forgotten he'd won one on grass and clay.

As for HC, I still think Pete is above Federer with the 5 wins, and finals. He's close, career wise, but not there yet.

Sunset of Age
07-30-2009, 01:15 AM
Very interesting lists, great post.
Thanks!

lessthanjake
07-30-2009, 01:15 AM
I had forgotten he'd won one on grass and clay.

As for HC, I still think Pete is above Federer with the 5 wins, and finals. He's close, career wise, but not there yet.

I could have put Sampras ahead of Federer. He has the same number of US Open wins, but with 3 extra runner up appearances too.

However, I put Federer ahead for a few reasons.

1. I expect that Federer will win another US Open in his career. It is arguably the slam that comes easiest to him, given that he even won it in 2008. Maybe not this year, but I see Federer winning at least one US Open in the next few years.
2. Federer was simply more dominant a hard court player than Sampras. Sampras' most dominant hard court years were 1994 and 1996 when he went 37-3 and 46-4 respectively. The rest of his seasons typically featured 5-10 losses on hard courts. From 2005 to 2006, Federer went 109-3 on hard courts, which included a record for most consecutive hard court matches won. Federer's THIRD best hard court season equaled Sampras' best at 46-4. Granted, I am talking only about fast hard courts, in the ranking you're talking about, so Sampras is closer to Federer in dominance than the above stats might make it seem, but Federer was still more dominant.
3. Cinncinati and Montreal are the two big outdoor fast hard court tournaments. Federer has won 4 titles combined. Sampras won 3. Along the same lines, Sampras NEVER won the US Open and one of the US Open Series Masters titles (ie. Cinncinati or Montreal) in the same year. Federer has done that 4 times. Granted, Sampras frequently didnt go to Montreal, but the point is that he was not dominating the fast hard court season like Federer did.

It's a close call, but I take Federer due to dominance. Sampras only ever won 2 US Opens in a row. Federer has 5 in a row.

JediFed
07-30-2009, 01:17 AM
I expect Fed to surpass Sampras, but I'm just looking at the snapshot now. :)

I agree that Fed's peak is much higher then Sampras on hard, but Sampras had greater longevity.

lessthanjake
07-30-2009, 01:26 AM
I expect Fed to surpass Sampras, but I'm just looking at the snapshot now. :)

I agree that Fed's peak is much higher then Sampras on hard, but Sampras had greater longevity.

Well then we basically agree haha. I guess I put Federer ahead because I felt it was silly to put Sampras ahead of him based on longevity over peak when Federer has not retired and is still probably the favorite for the US Open.

Serenidad
07-30-2009, 01:48 AM
Why is Sampras Top 4 of slow hardcourt?

tennizen
07-30-2009, 01:50 AM
Top 4 of everything in the Open Era:

Best Two-Handed Backhand
1. David Nalbandian
2. Marat Safin
3. Andre Agassi
4. Bjorn Borg



I think this list is not really accurate.

EnriqueIG8
07-30-2009, 01:56 AM
My picks would be:

Best Players
1. Roger Federer
2. Rod Laver
3. Pete Sampras
4. Bjorn Borg

Best Clay Court Players
1. Bjorn Borg
2. Rafael Nadal
3. Thomas Muster
4. Mats Wilander

Best Grass Court Players
1. Pete Sampras
2. Roger Federer
3. Bjorn Borg
4. John McEnroe


Best Slow Hard Court Players
1. Roger Federer
2. Andre Agassi
3. Ivan Lendl
4. Jimmy Connors

Best Fast Hard Court Players
1. Roger Federer
2. Pete Sampras
3. Ivan Lendl
4. John McEnroe

Best Indoor Hard/Carpet Players
1. John McEnroe
2. Ivan Lendl
3. Boris Becker
4. Pete Sampras

Best Forehand
1. Roger Federer
2. Ivan Lendl
3. Pete Sampras
4. Fernando Gonzalez

Best One-Handed Backhand
1. Gustavo Kuerten
2. Alex Corretja
3. Rod Laver
4. Stefan Edberg

Best Two-Handed Backhand
1. Andre Agassi
2. Bjorn Borg
3. Marat Safin
4. Jimmy Connors

Best Serve
1. Ivo Karlovic
2. Goran Ivanisevic
3. Pete Sampras
4. Roger Federer

Best Return of Serve
1. Andre Agassi
2. Jimmy Connors
3. Lleyton Hewitt
4. Andy Murray

Best Volleys
1. Stefan Edberg
2. John McEnroe
3. Pete Sampras
4. Tim Henman

Best Drop Shot
1. Guillermo Coria
2. Manuel Orantes
3. Marcelo Rios
4. Fabrice Santoro

Best Lob
1. Lleyton Hewitt
2. Jimmy Connors
3. Ken Rosewall
4. Michael Chang

Best Overhead Smash
1. Pete Sampras
2. Yannick Noah
3. John McEnroe
4. Roger Federer

Best Movement
1. Rafael Nadal
2. Bjorn Borg
3. Roger Federer
4. Lleyton Hewitt

Best Year of Tennis Ever Played
1. Rod Laver 1969
2. Roger Federer 2006
3. John McEnroe 1984
4. Ivan Lendl 1985

lessthanjake
07-30-2009, 03:14 AM
Why is Sampras Top 4 of slow hardcourt?

2 Australian Open titles, and 1 runner up. Only Agassi and Federer have better results at the Australian Open and only Lendl also won 2 and made the finals of another while it was on hard courts. Sampras also won Miami three times and Indian Wells twice. Only Agassi has won more titles at Miami/Indian Wells; and only Federer is tied with Sampras. To me, this makes Sampras pretty clearly the #3 player of all time on slow hard courts, given that the Australian Open, Miami, and Indian Wells are the three most important slow hard court events.

Haelfix
07-30-2009, 04:18 AM
A good list OP, very close to what i'd pick. Some differences. Lendl was a good carpet player, but not as good as Sampras (when he tried). The stats will probably favor Lendl, but frankly I don't see him beating Sampras there at their best, so i'd swap them.

Best serve has to be Sampras (swap him with Ivo), but there were plenty of better pure volleyers out there (Rosewall, Kramer and even Henmann and Rafter). Sampras had the luxury of coming in behind a dominant serve, and a dominant approach shot so he made things look a little easier than they really were.

Best movement, i'd swap Hewitt with Chang. And best clay court player i'd put Kuerten ahead of Lendl (and bump Wilander off). Also gotta put Connors ahead of Mac on fast hards and take Federers backhand over Lavers (its debatable how you can even include Laver/Rosewall/Borg/Connors in baseline strokes, since they played with wooden racquets and its not particularly fair).

Ilovetheblues_86
07-30-2009, 04:55 AM
Kuerten and Bruguera owns Muster at clay court.

lessthanjake
07-30-2009, 04:57 AM
Lendl was a good carpet player, but not as good as Sampras (when he tried). The stats will probably favor Lendl, but frankly I don't see him beating Sampras there at their best, so i'd swap them.

I actually thought about that, but in the end, I can't really override achievements on a surface with my own hunch.

Best serve has to be Sampras (swap him with Ivo),

No way. Ivo wins 92% of his service games even though he backs his serve up with a very inferior ground game. Granted, his serve is only so amazing because he is so tall, which is part of the reason his ground game is bad, but if we are talking strictly serve, Karlovic's is better than Sampras'. Sampras MIGHT be better at serving under extreme pressure, but overall, Karlovic has a serve that is in another stratosphere from anyone else.

but there were plenty of better pure volleyers out there (Rosewall, Kramer and even Henmann and Rafter). Sampras had the luxury of coming in behind a dominant serve, and a dominant approach shot so he made things look a little easier than they really were.

Rafter, Henman, Rosewall, and Sampras all had some great volleys. I wouldn't complain if someone decided to replace Sampras with Rafter or Rosewall on the volley list. You are right that Sampras' other strengths made his volleying look easy, but he certainly was a great volleyer.

And best clay court player i'd put Kuerten ahead of Lendl (and bump Wilander off).

Nahh. Kuerten was good, but both Lendl and Wilander also won 3 RG titles; but they also had some runner up finishes. Kuerten won RG three times, but never got close any other time (0 semis appearances and just 2 quarterfinals). Furthermore, Lendl won 28 titles on clay, Wilander won 20, and Kuerten won 14. Certainly, Kuerten is probably 5th on my list though (close call with Kuerten, Bruguera, Muster, Vilas, and Courier, but Kuerten probably gets the edge).

Also gotta put Connors ahead of Mac on fast hards

Nahh. McEnroe won 4 US Open titles on DecoTurf, was a finalist once, and a semifinalist 3 times. Connors won 3 US Open titles on DecoTurf, and was a semifinalist 7 other times. I'd take McEnroe's extra title and runner up finish over Connors' 4 extra semifinals appearances.

Granted, Connors might have added to his haul on DecoTurf if he hadnt played a few peak years before the USO was on that surface. However, McEnroe was also 3-1 head to head against Connors at the US Open on DecoTurf. It is close, but the head to head tilts it McEnroe's direction IMO.

take Federers backhand over Lavers (its debatable how you can even include Laver/Rosewall/Borg/Connors in baseline strokes, since they played with wooden racquets and its not particularly fair).

I was tempted to put Federer's backhand up. It is certainly one of the top one-handed backhands, but in the end I couldnt do it for the simple reason that his backhand is his weakness against Nadal. The stroke loses him grand slams.

Ilovetheblues_86
07-30-2009, 05:01 AM
Nahh. Kuerten was good, but both Lendl and Wilander also won 3 RG titles; but they also had some runner up finishes. Kuerten won RG three times, but never got close any other time (0 semis appearances and just 2 quarterfinals). Furthermore, Lendl won 28 titles on clay, Wilander won 20, and Kuerten won 14. Certainly, Kuerten is probably 5th on my list though (close call with Kuerten, Bruguera, Muster, Vilas, and Courier, but Kuerten probably gets the edge).

Kuerten had injuries and half-time career free of injuries Lendl and Wilander had. From 2003 on his career doesn´t count too much.

fast_clay
07-30-2009, 05:08 AM
Best Backhand Smash
1. Pat Cash

f*** it was good... he snapped the sh!t out of it...

fast_clay
07-30-2009, 05:18 AM
Also have issues with Rafter being lower than Henman, possibly also Sampras, in volley department...

Volleys.
1. Edberg
2. McEnroe
3. Sampras
4. Rafter

Serve should also be split into 1st n 2nd:

2nd Serve:
1. Sampras
2. Ivanisevic
3. Edberg
4. Becker/Stich

Half Volley:
Undisputed King: Sampras

Drop Volley:
Master Cheif: Patrick Rafter

DJ Soup
07-30-2009, 05:40 AM
What about a BEST SLICE?

I cannot make a list because I haven't seen enough tennis history, but Fed's slice should be high up there. In fact I'd say Fed's backhand slice is what really makes him competitive in the greatest one handed backhands debate.

pray-for-palestine-and-israel
07-30-2009, 05:58 AM
ok why have you fags not put Roddick up on the serving list

he's 6ft 2 and he's hit 155

unlike dr talentless he doesn't rely on height, but purely great technique

lessthanjake
07-30-2009, 05:16 PM
ok why have you fags not put Roddick up on the serving list

he's 6ft 2 and he's hit 155

unlike dr talentless he doesn't rely on height, but purely great technique

I put Roddick 4th on my list of greatest servers.

Karlovic's serve IS better no matter how much it has to do with his height. Goran and Sampras placed the ball better than Roddick does, were harder to read, and in the case of Sampras made the ball a lot heavier with topspin.

HattonWBA
07-30-2009, 06:04 PM
Great post

MacTheKnife
07-30-2009, 10:39 PM
Way to much info for one thread. Do I agree with all of it, no. Is it worth typing out responses, no.

Federerhingis
07-30-2009, 10:46 PM
I expect Fed to surpass Sampras, but I'm just looking at the snapshot now. :)

I agree that Fed's peak is much higher then Sampras on hard, but Sampras had greater longevity.

But Fed has not retired yet, plus he intends to play at least another 3 years. ;)

However as of now I agree. :p

oz_boz
07-30-2009, 10:51 PM
Agree with lots, although Lendl is the indoor king no doubt, and IMO neither of Safin and Nalby had better bh's (consistently) than Borg or Agassi.

habibko
07-30-2009, 11:58 PM
Federer's dropshot should make an appearance in the top 4.

and obviously the one handed backhand.

lessthanjake
07-31-2009, 01:05 AM
Federer's dropshot should make an appearance in the top 4.

and obviously the one handed backhand.

Federer's drop shot is incredibly good, but he really only started using it this year. If he uses it just as effectively for the next 3-4 years, then maybe it will make the list. Otherwise, it just can't because he hasnt used it as a major weapon enough.

As for the one-handed backhand, Federer would be one of the next best after the top 4. I thought about putting him on the top 4 because of how much he can do with it, and how his slice allows him to rule grass. However, the fact that his backhand is ALSO his major weakness stopped me. I can't bring myself to put someone's backhand as one of the top 4 one-handed backhands ever when it has frequently been broken down in grand slam matches.

Roddickominator
07-31-2009, 01:35 AM
Nalbandian sticks out like a sore thumb on this list....he doesn't belong on a list with all of these players. Agassi's 2-hander is much better.

Rafter should be in the volleys.

mcnasty
07-31-2009, 02:02 AM
best serve:
1) sampras
2) mcenroe
3) federer
4) borg

best volley:
1) mcenroe
2) edberg
3) cash
4) rafter

best forehand:

1) lendl
2) federer
3) borg
4) moya

best backhand:

1) kuerten
2) connors
3) edberg
4) agassi

habibko
07-31-2009, 02:15 AM
Federer's drop shot is incredibly good, but he really only started using it this year. If he uses it just as effectively for the next 3-4 years, then maybe it will make the list. Otherwise, it just can't because he hasnt used it as a major weapon enough.

use it as a weapon? Santoro doesn't use it as a weapon either, it's about the mastery and execution of the shot, or at least it should be, given you are making the lists in the OP.

also he has always used it, even in 2005, he just hasn't used it as often until this year and last year in the clay season.

As for the one-handed backhand, Federer would be one of the next best after the top 4. I thought about putting him on the top 4 because of how much he can do with it, and how his slice allows him to rule grass. However, the fact that his backhand is ALSO his major weakness stopped me. I can't bring myself to put someone's backhand as one of the top 4 one-handed backhands ever when it has frequently been broken down in grand slam matches.

it's not his weakness, it's the lesser of two evils.

also you have lobs, drop shots lists but no list for slice? that's suspicious.

lessthanjake
07-31-2009, 03:53 AM
I thought about doing a slice. The list would probably have included Federer, Edberg, Rosewall and someone else, maybe Laver in some order. Probably Rosewall, then Edberg, then Federer, then Laver.

Echoes
07-31-2009, 11:09 AM
I don't like rankings. These are just lists of four names, no ranking in them.

Best Players
Pancho Gonzales
Rod Laver
Ken Rosewall
John McEnroe

Best Clay Court Players
Ken Rosewall
Björn Borg
Mats Wilander
Guillermo Vilas


Best Grass Court Players (real grass court, not the stuff we have today !)
Rod Laver
John McEnroe
Pancho Gonzales
Pete Sampras

Best Slow Hard Court Players
Stefan Edberg
Jim Courier
Pete Sampras
Ivan Lendl

Best Fast Hard Court Players
Jimmy Connors
Pete Sampras
Stefan Edberg
John McEnroe

Best Indoor Hard/Carpet Players
Ken Rosewall
Rod Laver
Pete Sampras
John McEnroe

Best Forehand
don't know


Best One-Handed Backhand
Ken Rosewall
Rod Laver
Stefan Edberg
Cédric Pioline

Best Two-Handed Backhand
don't know


Best Serve
Pancho Gonzales
Roscoe Tanner
Colin Dibley
Goran Ivanisevic


Best Return of Serve
Jonas Björkman
Rod Laver
Andre Agassi
Jimmy Connors


Best Volleys
Stefan Edberg
John McEnroe
Pete Sampras
Richard Krajicek

Best Drop Shot
don't know

Best Lob
Rod Laver
Jimmy Connors
Ken Rosewall
John Newcombe

Best Overhead Smash
Rod Laver
Rod Laver
Rod Laver
Rod Laver

Best Movement
Ken Rosewall
Björn Borg
don't know for the others.


Best Year of Tennis Ever Played
Rod Laver 1969
Roger Federer 2006
John McEnroe 1984
Guillermo Vilas 1977

bokehlicious
07-31-2009, 11:20 AM
I thought about doing a slice. The list would probably have included Federer, Edberg, Rosewall and someone else, maybe Laver in some order. Probably Rosewall, then Edberg, then Federer, then Laver.

Fed's slice is better than Edberg's (and I was more a fan of Edberg than Fed).

ORGASMATRON
07-31-2009, 11:27 AM
And it was better then Rosewall :)

DartMarcus
07-31-2009, 12:55 PM
Best fixing/tanking:
1. Oscar Hernandez
2. Nikolay Davydenko
3. M. Vassallo Arguello
4. Filippo Volandri

federersforehand
07-31-2009, 01:32 PM
I don't like rankings. These are just lists of four names, no ranking in them.

Best Players
Pancho Gonzales
Rod Laver
Ken Rosewall
John McEnroe

Best Clay Court Players
Ken Rosewall
Björn Borg
Mats Wilander
Guillermo Vilas


Best Grass Court Players (real grass court, not the stuff we have today !)
Rod Laver
John McEnroe
Pancho Gonzales
Pete Sampras

Best Slow Hard Court Players
Stefan Edberg
Jim Courier
Pete Sampras
Ivan Lendl

Best Fast Hard Court Players
Jimmy Connors
Pete Sampras
Stefan Edberg
John McEnroe

Best Indoor Hard/Carpet Players
Ken Rosewall
Rod Laver
Pete Sampras
John McEnroe

Best Forehand
don't know


Best One-Handed Backhand
Ken Rosewall
Rod Laver
Stefan Edberg
Cédric Pioline

Best Two-Handed Backhand
don't know


Best Serve
Pancho Gonzales
Roscoe Tanner
Colin Dibley
Goran Ivanisevic


Best Return of Serve
Jonas Björkman
Rod Laver
Andre Agassi
Jimmy Connors


Best Volleys
Stefan Edberg
John McEnroe
Pete Sampras
Richard Krajicek

Best Drop Shot
don't know

Best Lob
Rod Laver
Jimmy Connors
Ken Rosewall
John Newcombe

Best Overhead Smash
Rod Laver
Rod Laver
Rod Laver
Rod Laver

Best Movement
Ken Rosewall
Björn Borg
don't know for the others.


Best Year of Tennis Ever Played
Rod Laver 1969
Roger Federer 2006
John McEnroe 1984
Guillermo Vilas 1977

Shit list that made me laugh at your bias, your ignorance to Federers superb all round game and Nadals punishing style that have attributed to their massive success make me cringe. Im glad you wasted half an hour on it. Wonder why you missed best FH?? Cos if you didnt put one of Fed or Nadal people would know you are full of shit.

Echoes
07-31-2009, 01:47 PM
It took me 30 seconds. :haha: