Who's badder: Schüttler or Simon?

Considering this season of Simon reminds me more and more of the season Schüttler played in 2004.

Statistical comparison of both seasons (Schüttler '04 and Simon '09):

.............Schüttler.....vs......Simon
Previous season:
ended 2003 as world No. 6..................ended 2008 as world No. 7
at the age of 27...........................at the age of 24
moved up 27 places in the ranking..........moved up 22 places in the ranking
almost spent 5 years in Top 100............almost spent 3 years in Top 100
match record of 71-29 (71%)................match record of 53-27 (66,3%)
2 titles (Lyon, Tokyo).....................3 titles (Bucharest, Indianapolis, Casablanca)
2 times finalist (Costa Do Sauipe, AO).....1 time finalist (ATP Masters Series Madrid)
reached at least 4th round of every GS.....reached 3rd round of every GS except FO
reached Masters Cup Semifinal..............reached Masters Cup Semifinal

Season in question:
ended 2008 as world No. 42.................will end the year as world No. ? (probably outside Top 30)
held himself inside Top 10 until August....will hold himself inside Top 10 until ? (probably August)
climbed down 36 places in the ranking......will climb down ? (probably more then 30) places in the ranking
match record of 29-30 (49,2%)..............match record of ? (25-21 (54,3%) until now)
no title...................................no title (until now)
1 final (ATP Masters Series Monte Carlo)...no final (until now)
lost 1st round in every GS except Wimby....reached at least 3rd round of every GS (US Open still to come)


Very similar statistics so. Like their style of play, too, I think. Okay, Schüttler in my opinion plays mostly more aggressive or offensive than Simon. But both play steadily at the base line and avoid going to net entirely. Both are limited in their way of playing and reached more in their career than you could expect with such a style. Both are hard workers on court. And you never think that they have the weapons to beat the best.

Who do you think ist the better player and will finally have the better career? Simon ist still younger than Schüttler was at his best time on tour. But Schüttler ist still keeping himself inside Top 100 (probably for the last year, but overall more than a decade), although he never reached a final after 2004 again. But he never gave up and had some nice comebacks like reaching the semifinal of Wimbledon in 2008. Altogether you can say that he have made the most of his talent. Will Simon hold such a (ATP-) level like Schüttler or will he reach more in future than Schüttler reached after his High in 2003/04 or will he slip off much more than Schüttler after his best time?


Wins against Top Ten players:

Schüttler (19-35 Win-Loss):

1997
Chennai R32 Thomas Enqvist (SWE) 7 6-6 RET

1999
Doha Final Tim Henman (GBR) 7 6-4, 5-7, 6-1
Chennai Quarter Carlos Moya (ESP) 2 6-1, 3-0 RET

2001
Hong Kong Quarter Juan Carlos Ferrero (ESP) 5 6-3, 7-6(6)
St. Petersburg R32 Juan Carlos Ferrero (ESP) 5 7-6(8), 6-4

2002
Doha Quarter Yevgeny Kafelnikov (RUS) 4 7-5, 6-4
Munich R32 Thomas Johansson (SWE) 8 7-5, 6-3
ATP MS Cincinnati R64 Yevgeny Kafelnikov (RUS) 5 6-3, 6-2

2003
Australian Open Semi Andy Roddick (USA) 10 7-5, 2-6, 6-3, 6-3
ATP MS Indian Wells Quarter Andy Roddick (USA) 6 6-3, 6-2
ATP MS Rome R16 Jiri Novak (CZE) 9 6-4, 7-6(2)
ATP MS Canada Quarter Andre Agassi (USA) 1 2-6, 6-2, 6-3
Tokyo Final Sebastien Grosjean (FRA) 10 7-6(5), 6-2
Masters Cup Houston RR Guillermo Coria (ARG) 4 6-3, 4-6, 6-2
Masters Cup Houston RR Andy Roddick (USA) 1 4-6, 7-6(4), 7-6(3)

2004
ATP MS Monte Carlo Quarter Tim Henman (GBR) 7 6-3, 6-1
ATP MS Monte Carlo Semi Carlos Moya (ESP) 8 7-6(5), 6-4

2008
Wimbledon R64 James Blake (USA) 8 6-3, 6-7(8), 4-6, 6-4, 6-4

2009
WTC Düsseldorf RR Gilles Simon (FRA) 7 6-4, 6-4

Simon (9-18 Win-Loss):

2006
ATP MS Hamburg R32 Gaston Gaudio (ARG) 9 6-4, 3-6, 6-4

2007
ATP MS Indian Wells R64 Tommy Robredo (ESP) 7 6-7, 6-3, 6-0
ATP MS Rome R64 Andy Murray (GBR) 10 6-1, 1-6, 6-3
Umag R32 Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 4 6-2, 2-6, 6-3
New Haven R16 Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 4 6-4, 6-4

2008
Marseille R16 Novak Djokovic (SRB) 3 6-2, 6-7(6), 6-3
ATP MS Canada R32 Roger Federer (SUI) 1 2-6, 7-5, 6-4
ATP MS Madrid Semi Rafael Nadal (ESP) 1 3-6, 7-5, 7-6(6)
Master Cup China RR Roger Federer (SUI) 2 4-6, 6-4, 6-3

Simon had to play against some less Top Ten players in 2008/09 than Schüttler in 2003/04. Also he lost against more Top Ten players in this time seen it percental. Schüttler had most of his losses after his great season in 2003. Until then it was nearly equal. Simon only had to play against two Top Ten players this year and lost both of these matches. Remarkable is that both could beat the No. 1 two times. Simon even Federer two times and Nadal in Madrid.

Badder :haha:

Interesting comparison.

Tho i think Simon will get him self together soon, so i have to say Shittler is the worse 1.

Badder?

Badder?
In german we call it "Wortspiel". Maybe you can translate it as "wordplay"?

I think it's more interesting to discuss than only giving your voice to a poll.

So it's better or worse, whatever you want it to be... ;)

Interesting, AndiMD. You're right in the fact that Simon will probably finish the season outside TOP 30.

Badder?, Great thread and very interesting to read actually, i do however feel that Simon may be able to have a decent hard court swing in the lead up to the US Open although his performances have been more worrying than his results given how badly he has played so far this year. All in all though he is still in the top 10 and has no points to defend next year, who knows maybe hes fixing lol.

And also there is no way he will finish the year outside of the top 30 in my opinion. Maybe 15 - 20 if his form does not get better

Extremely interesting comparison, even if the word-game "badder" escapes me and I am a native German speaker. ;)

And also there is no way he will finish the year outside of the top 30 in my opinion. Maybe 15 - 20 if his form does not get better
You're probably right. But he has to defend still more than 2500 points this year. So if he continues his actual losing streak, he will hardly hold himself inside Top 20 and possibly inside Top 30, too.

It's also noticeable that both players can perform well on all surfaces. Their best seems to be hard court, especially after Simons bad clay court performances these summer.

I think Simon is more worserer.

I want to think it's Simon, but I guess it is Schuettler :sad:

You're probably right. But he has to defend still more than 2500 points this year. So if he continues his actual losing streak, he will hardly hold himself inside Top 20 and possibly inside Top 30, too.

It's also noticeable that both players can perform well on all surfaces. Their best seems to be hard court, especially after Simons bad clay court performances these summer.
Schuettler can't really play well on clay and rarely wins more than two matches in a ro on the surface.

Schuettler can't really play well on clay and rarely wins more than two matches in a ro on the surface.
Like Simon this season (lost against Beck, Ljubicic, Zverev two times and even Brands). ;)

Simon lost against Söderling, Querrey and Schüttler at WTC, too, where Schüttler even got double bageled by Söderling.

Schüttler at his best time reached 4th round of Roland Garros and yet ATP Masters Series final of Monte Carlo on clay in 2004.

Finally you're right, Schüttler has a negative record on clay, now. Simon hasn't, now.

Extremely interesting comparison, even if the word-game "badder" escapes me and I am a native German speaker. ;)
Bad, badder, am baddesten. ;)

"Badder" should mean worse, if anybody want to give this word an importance. ;)

Interesting thread, and I had similar thoughts, alot of comparisons can be made.

Like Simon this season (lost against Beck, Ljubicic, Zverev two times and even Brands). ;)

Simon lost against Söderling, Querrey and Schüttler at WTC, too, where Schüttler even got double bageled by Söderling.

Schüttler at his best time reached 4th round of Roland Garros and yet ATP Masters Series final of Monte Carlo on clay in 2004.

Finally you're right, Schüttler has a negative record on clay, now. Simon hasn't, now.

And then Schuettler won like 4 games in 3 sets against Coria in the final of Monte Carlo :lol:

This is a pretty good comparison...of course Simon is going to drop out of the top 10 because I'm not seeing him making 4R at the US and the F at Madrid (or whatever tournament is going to count for that). But I also don't see him falling down all the way to 42nd. Simon has had a poor year, but he's done pretty decently at the majors (not as good as his ranking obviously).

Either way, we'll figure out who's baddest at the end of the year

Looks like I'm the only one that voted similar. But to me at this point in the season it's a:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8669/cointoss772544.jpg

Michael Jackson!!

Shamone......Shamone.......You know it.

Schuettler

Looks like I'm the only one that voted similar. But to me at this point in the season it's a:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8669/cointoss772544.jpg

You've been on a roll for some time. :crying2:

Like Simon this season (lost against Beck, Ljubicic, Zverev two times and even Brands). ;)

Simon lost against ___ Querrey and Schüttler at WTC, too, where Schüttler even got double bageled by ___ .

Schüttler at his best time reached 4th round of Roland Garros and yet ATP Masters Series final of Monte Carlo on clay in 2004.

Finally you're right, Schüttler has a negative record on clay, now. Simon hasn't, now.

But he might soon, if 2009 is any indication.

The thing is, at the start of the year Simon stated that one of his major goals for 2009 was to lose to as many German players as possible as many times as possible.

Michael Jackson!!

Shamone......Shamone.......You know it.

:spit:

Both are absolute crap.

Shittler cost me 10K vCash yesterday, gives him the edge eh. :p

Simon has had a poor year, but he's done pretty decently at the majors (not as good as his ranking obviously).

Either way, we'll figure out who's baddest at the end of the year
Right, his GS-ponits this year will save him from falling down to a position like Schüttler at the end of 2004.

And I think, we only can figure out who's worse in a few years and when we can compare their whole careers. Currently the win-loss-statistic in finals speakes for Simon, the GS-performances in all for Schüttler.

Wins against Top Ten players:


Schüttler (19-35 Win-Loss):

1997
Chennai R32 Thomas Enqvist (SWE) 7 6-6 RET

1999
Doha Final Tim Henman (GBR) 7 6-4, 5-7, 6-1
Chennai Quarter Carlos Moya (ESP) 2 6-1, 3-0 RET

2001
Hong Kong Quarter Juan Carlos Ferrero (ESP) 5 6-3, 7-6(6)
St. Petersburg R32 Juan Carlos Ferrero (ESP) 5 7-6(8), 6-4

2002
Doha Quarter Yevgeny Kafelnikov (RUS) 4 7-5, 6-4
Munich R32 Thomas Johansson (SWE) 8 7-5, 6-3
ATP MS Cincinnati R64 Yevgeny Kafelnikov (RUS) 5 6-3, 6-2

2003
Australian Open Semi Andy Roddick (USA) 10 7-5, 2-6, 6-3, 6-3
ATP MS Indian Wells Quarter Andy Roddick (USA) 6 6-3, 6-2
ATP MS Rome R16 Jiri Novak (CZE) 9 6-4, 7-6(2)
ATP MS Canada Quarter Andre Agassi (USA) 1 2-6, 6-2, 6-3
Tokyo Final Sebastien Grosjean (FRA) 10 7-6(5), 6-2
Masters Cup Houston RR Guillermo Coria (ARG) 4 6-3, 4-6, 6-2
Masters Cup Houston RR Andy Roddick (USA) 1 4-6, 7-6(4), 7-6(3)

2004
ATP MS Monte Carlo Quarter Tim Henman (GBR) 7 6-3, 6-1
ATP MS Monte Carlo Semi Carlos Moya (ESP) 8 7-6(5), 6-4

2008
Wimbledon R64 James Blake (USA) 8 6-3, 6-7(8), 4-6, 6-4, 6-4

2009
WTC Düsseldorf RR Gilles Simon (FRA) 7 6-4, 6-4


Simon (9-18 Win-Loss):

2006
ATP MS Hamburg R32 Gaston Gaudio (ARG) 9 6-4, 3-6, 6-4

2007
ATP MS Indian Wells R64 Tommy Robredo (ESP) 7 6-7, 6-3, 6-0
ATP MS Rome R64 Andy Murray (GBR) 10 6-1, 1-6, 6-3
Umag R32 Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 4 6-2, 2-6, 6-3
New Haven R16 Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 4 6-4, 6-4

2008
Marseille R16 Novak Djokovic (SRB) 3 6-2, 6-7(6), 6-3
ATP MS Canada R32 Roger Federer (SUI) 1 2-6, 7-5, 6-4
ATP MS Madrid Semi Rafael Nadal (ESP) 1 3-6, 7-5, 7-6(6)
Master Cup China RR Roger Federer (SUI) 2 4-6, 6-4, 6-3


Simon had to play against some less Top Ten players in 2008/09 than Schüttler in 2003/04. Also he lost against more Top Ten players in this time seen it percental. Schüttler had most of his losses after his great season in 2003. Until then it was nearly equal. Simon only had to play against two Top Ten players this year and lost both of these matches. Remarkable is that both could beat the No. 1 two times. Simon even Federer two times and Nadal in Madrid.

Yes, not a bad question imo, if you are just comparing current form. But the rankings tell a completely different story, with Simon having earned 4 times the number of points Schuettler has, this season. And Simon still has a solid shot at finishing the year in the top 20, which isn't too bad.

Shittler cost me 10K vCash yesterday, gives him the edge eh. :p

Why would you back him...?

Badder? Good grammar there. :)

Schüttler possibly.

Why would you back him...?

I obviously brainfarted when I made that bet. :cool:

But he might soon, if 2009 is any indication.

The thing is, at the start of the year Simon stated that one of his major goals for 2009 was to lose to as many German players as possible as many times as possible.

:lol:

I'd like to thank rtgy for bad repping me.

That said, I'd say Simon is a way bigger mug.

Who is baddener? For now Simug.

Rainer :hug: :sad:

Stupid Dream, the image that you got there (Roger and Rafa) it`s hilarious :haha: :haha: :haha: Sooo funny!! :yeah: