Who's the better returner? (Overall, not only this year!) [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Who's the better returner? (Overall, not only this year!)

Skyward
07-19-2009, 09:08 PM
Discuss.

Dini
07-19-2009, 09:11 PM
Hewitt at his peak, Muzza now. Then Nalbandian and Fed.

ORGASMATRON
07-19-2009, 09:12 PM
Federer is the best in everything if he needs to be. The returning against Karlovic was sic. The serving in the final as well.

Burrow
07-19-2009, 09:12 PM
Definitely Hewitt.

oliverbwfc
07-19-2009, 09:15 PM
Very little between all four of them, I think fat Dave edges it when he's up to it.

Dini
07-19-2009, 09:15 PM
I think Nadal should be in the poll too. He was leading nearly all the returning stats before his knee injury.

Burrow
07-19-2009, 09:16 PM
I think Nadal should be in the poll too. He was leading nearly all the returning stats before his knee injury.

That's obviously not because of the return itself, it's because when he gets the ball back he is so hard to beat in any rally. He doesn't make many errors.

chenx15
07-19-2009, 09:17 PM
I think Nadal should be in the poll too. He was leading nearly all the returning stats before his knee injury.

X2 on that i considered him the human wall before the meltdown in FO 09

Fed Express
07-19-2009, 09:18 PM
At this point I think.

1) Murray
2) Federer
3) Hewitt
4) Nalbandian

Dini
07-19-2009, 09:19 PM
That's obviously not because of the return itself, it's because when he gets the ball back he is so hard to beat in any rally. He doesn't make many errors.

You've got a point, but he returns a lot of them.

:topic:

You could make the same argument about his 2nd serve; he's leading those stats but I don't believe he has the best 2nd serve, he just has the game and incredible outlasting ability to win those points in the long rallies.

Burrow
07-19-2009, 09:24 PM
You've got a point, but he returns a lot of them.

:topic:

You could make the same argument about his 2nd serve; he's leading those stats but I don't believe he has the best 2nd serve, he just has the game and outlasting ability to win those points in the long rallies.

Well you've just owned yourself.

Being good in return games are different from being a good returner.

Returning is the physical action you make after an opponents serve not what you do in the whole point, whether it be hit backhand and forehand or chip and charge. You could hit so many mediocre returns and excel in the rest of the point but that doesn't make you an impressive returner.

Har-Tru
07-19-2009, 09:25 PM
Federer?? :lol:



Robredo.

Mechlan
07-19-2009, 09:26 PM
I think Nadal should be in the poll too. He was leading nearly all the returning stats before his knee injury.

No way. Nadal is a decent returner, he's just exceptional off the ground when the rally gets going. I guess it would be like saying Federer is a better server than Karlovic because the game he backs it up with is so much better than Ivo's.

I would say Hewitt or Murray maybe. Nalbandian probably has the best offensive return and Federer the best defensive return. However Federer's offensive return sucks as does Nalbandian's defensive. Murray and Hewitt are more well rounded.

GlennMirnyi
07-19-2009, 09:28 PM
Federer.

:haha: :haha:

Can't say that with a straight face.

Skyward
07-19-2009, 09:33 PM
Federer.

:haha: :haha:

Can't say that with a straight face.

Well, big servers did not have a lot of success agaisnt him in the past.

Cloudygirl
07-19-2009, 09:39 PM
Nalbandian is an exceptional returner when his game is on.

Burrow
07-19-2009, 09:41 PM
if people are judging this when players were at their peak then I can't believe Hewitt isn't winning, Nalbandian as usual winning, overrated as hell.

Har-Tru
07-19-2009, 09:41 PM
Well, big servers did not have a lot of success agaisnt him in the past.

that doesn't mean he's to be considered as the best returner in the game.

ballbasher101
07-19-2009, 09:42 PM
Definitely Hewitt.


Hewitt used to be the best at returning but Marray has taken over. Federer's return of serve is good but not great.

Skyward
07-19-2009, 09:44 PM
that doesn't mean he's to be considered as the best returner in the game.

This poll doesn't ask who is the best returner in the game.

Burrow
07-19-2009, 09:45 PM
Hewitt used to be the best at returning but Marray has taken over. Federer's return of serve is good but not great.

People aren't judging this on current form.

If it was current form then yes, but Murray vs Hewitt both peak, then Hewitt would easily win.

KaiserT
07-19-2009, 09:46 PM
Federer?

You've got to be joking.

ballbasher101
07-19-2009, 09:49 PM
People aren't judging this on current form.

If it was current form then yes, but Murray vs Hewitt both peak, then Hewitt would easily win.


At peak form I would pick Hewitt as well :wavey:.

Agassi'sMullet
07-19-2009, 09:50 PM
Agassi

Murray right now

Burrow
07-19-2009, 09:51 PM
If talking on current form, why would Hewitt and Nalbandian be in the poll?

TMJordan
07-19-2009, 09:52 PM
Federer?

Isner returns better than him.

The answer you are looking for is Andy Murray.

ORGASMATRON
07-19-2009, 09:55 PM
If talking on current form, why would Hewitt and Nalbandian be in the poll?

In MTF everything is about current form, havnt you noticed?

Ps. Be nice to Miura.

ballbasher101
07-19-2009, 09:56 PM
Agassi

Murray right now


Agassi was a brilliant returner. In that titanic match at the US open against blake I think he hit a return winner on match point.

Skyward
07-19-2009, 10:00 PM
Federer?

You've got to be joking.

1. This poll is not about the best returner of all times.

2. In his prime, Federer used to be in top 5 in the category "points won returning 1st serve"/"return games won" and in top 10-15 in the category "points won returning 2nd serve".

3. This poll is only about these 4 players. I'd prefer if people judged Hewitt/Nalbandian/Federer returning abilities based on their prime time performances.

Certinfy
07-19-2009, 10:04 PM
Murray. :rocker2: with Nadal 2nd :)

Sapeod
07-19-2009, 10:11 PM
Murray definately. Then hewitt, then Nalbandian and Fed.

Har-Tru
07-19-2009, 10:13 PM
This poll doesn't ask who is the best returner in the game.

All the same. Federer is the worst returner of these four.

DrJules
07-19-2009, 10:13 PM
I think Nadal should be in the poll too. He was leading nearly all the returning stats before his knee injury.

Possibly weighted by play on clay which slows the service speed and makes returning serve easier.

Skyward
07-19-2009, 10:16 PM
All the same. Federer is the worst returner of these four.

Fine. This poll asks who is the better returner. :)

miura
07-19-2009, 10:16 PM
Federer. Why?

Oh, just applying MTF logic. Whatever one says MUST be correct.

DrJules
07-19-2009, 10:17 PM
Federer still remains as good as anybody at retuning fast serves.

Har-Tru
07-19-2009, 10:19 PM
Fine. This poll asks who is the better returner. :)

Adding Federer to the poll makes little sense. That's my point.

Skyward
07-19-2009, 10:23 PM
Adding Federer to the poll makes little sense. That's my point.

IMO, Federer's return game was underrated in his prime time. Anyhow, adding Federer to the poll might bring me more vcash. :p

DrJules
07-19-2009, 10:31 PM
IMO, Federer's return game was underrated in his prime time. Anyhow, adding Federer to the poll might bring me more vcash. :p

Considering that at Wimbledon Karlovic held serve every time in his first 4 matches with neither Verdasco or Tsonga (top 10 players) breaking his serve until in the quarter final Federer broke it 2 times in 3 sets his inclusion is not unreasonable. Until this Wimbledon he also returned the Roddick serve well. I mention these 2 because many consider them to have among the best serves.

GlennMirnyi
07-19-2009, 10:34 PM
Hewitt.

mark73
07-19-2009, 10:41 PM
Federer is no where near the great returner he once was, but hes still better than average by grand slam standard. I would say murray is the best today.

leng jai
07-19-2009, 10:45 PM
Hewitt was the best defensive first serve returner.
Agassi was the best aggressive first serve returner.
Fedclown is the best block returner against massive serves eg. Rodduck/Dr Ivo.
Second serve returns take your pick between Fat Dave, Agassi and Mugray.

McAlistar
07-19-2009, 10:46 PM
Murray :)

Bilbo
07-19-2009, 10:46 PM
A. Murray

Dini
07-19-2009, 10:49 PM
Wasn't Djokovic known for his return game once upon a time?

Acer
07-19-2009, 11:06 PM
Hewitt

Dini
07-19-2009, 11:14 PM
Hewitt should have a much better record against big servers for his returning ability in my opinion. The fact that he once had a 0-3 losing record against Dr Ivo is quite surprising, really.

luie
07-19-2009, 11:27 PM
Hewitt was the best defensive first serve returner.
Agassi was the best aggressive first serve returner.
Fedclown is the best block returner against massive serves eg. Rodduck/Dr Ivo.
Second serve returns take your pick between Fat Dave, Agassi and Mugray.
Make sense.

oranges
07-19-2009, 11:28 PM
Hewitt should have a much better record against big servers for his returning ability in my opinion. The fact that he once had a 0-3 losing record against Dr Ivo is quite surprising, really.

Doesn't he? Who else comes to mind?

Only the Wimbledon loss to Karlovic was really surprising, losing in two tight TBs in a best-off three wouldn't be that much even during his prime.

rocketassist
07-19-2009, 11:31 PM
Wasn't Djokovic known for his return game once upon a time?

He was known for it, but it's nothing special especially off 1st serve, it's about as good as Nadal's. On grass his ROS sucks.

Burrow
07-19-2009, 11:33 PM
He's not bad against guys who serve big, he had a great record against Roddick until he hit the decline, beat Sampras quite a few times, Safin, bitches Feliciano Lopez about any time they play, barely lost a match against croatians in general, i've got highlights of him hammering Soderling a few years ago...

In general, he was better than any of these guys in this department.

rocketassist
07-19-2009, 11:34 PM
Hewitt should have a much better record against big servers for his returning ability in my opinion. The fact that he once had a 0-3 losing record against Dr Ivo is quite surprising, really.

Andy Roddick, Joachim Johansson when he dismantled his amazing serving of that 2004 USO into the ground, Rusedski was a guy he had a winning record against, and Sampras although he wasn't a big server, just a great server.

rocketassist
07-19-2009, 11:36 PM
Only a deluded fanboy/fangirl puts Nadal in this discussion.

David Ferrer's return isn't bad.

Burrow
07-19-2009, 11:37 PM
I'm pretty sure Sampras was a big server...

tennishero
07-19-2009, 11:38 PM
at their best, nalbandian. he was top 5 in every return statistic for a number of years.
murray just moonballs it back.

Serenidad
07-19-2009, 11:41 PM
Hewitt is my pick returning if someone is consistently serving and volleying. His record against Henman and matches against Sampras can vouch for that.

Federer doesn't deserve to be in this poll.

Nalbandian is only deserving if he is on, which is getting rarer and rarer.

Murray is probably a better all-around pick. He has a better offensive return of serve especially on 2nd serve than Hewitt. A little bit better at neutralizing a serve, but against serve and volley players Hewitt is probably just better in that category.

rocketassist
07-19-2009, 11:42 PM
I'm pretty sure Sampras was a big server...

I never really thought his serve was 'huge' but more about its amazing accuracy than its power, even if he could get some pop on it. It was a shot of genius.

Burrow
07-19-2009, 11:45 PM
Obviously wasn't known for it's power, although he would hit his second serve pretty much as hard as anybody.

I'd still say hitting high 120's consistently is pretty big. I think his fastest serve was 139mph and with the speed gun technology improved, it was probably faster than that.

lessthanjake
07-20-2009, 12:14 AM
Federer is only a great returner when it comes to neutralizing ridiculous serves. He is able to break Karlovic, and is frequently able to limit Roddick's number of aces to pedestrian levels.

Otherwise, currently it has gotta be Murray, but if youre talking peak, then Hewitt.

MacTheKnife
07-20-2009, 12:43 AM
The way the poll is written, it's Murray. He's 1 or 2 in every category tracked. It's not really close.

Black Adam
07-20-2009, 12:54 AM
Nalbandian on a good day. Hewitt second.

I can't believe Mr "Shank returns" Federer is actually included :help:

DekuTheEvilClown
07-20-2009, 01:05 AM
Federer is currently joint 20th in return games won this year. That's behind the likes of Zverev, Troicki and Sela btw.

With his amazing ground game this stat really gives an idea of how poor an all round returner Federer is.

1. Murray
2. Nalbandian
3. Nadal

Nadal has won 38% of return games this year. Regardless of how good he is once the point starts you have to get a whole lot of returns into play and into good positions to give yourself the chances to win that many return games.

Skyward
07-20-2009, 01:10 AM
Federer is currently joint 20th in return games won this year. Nadal has won 38% of return games this year.


As I said earlier, this poll is not about this year. Federer used to be in top5 in this category. Federer/Nalbandian/Hewitt are about the same age (around 28). Obviously, their best tennis is behind them.
Also, stats can be deceiving. For example, after the 2004 FO Coria was in top 3 in return categories. It was not the case at the end of the year.

DekuTheEvilClown
07-20-2009, 01:21 AM
Ok then.

Federer at his best was still inferior to the return of the other 3 though.

1.Murray
2.Hewitt
3.Nalbandian
4.Federer

Burrow
07-20-2009, 01:23 AM
haha Murray better returner than Hewitt.

I guess you've only been following the pro tour for a year.

tennishero
07-20-2009, 03:02 AM
Nalbandian beat Murray in Paris, and he was nowhere near his best.

_AmYlLjGjcI

Audacity
07-20-2009, 05:01 AM
Murray. Defs not Hewitt nowadays.

RGK
07-20-2009, 05:07 AM
By far A. Murray.

its.like.that
07-20-2009, 05:10 AM
Hewitt at his peak, Muzza now. Then Nalbandian and Fed.

:haha:

Good one! :yeah:

its.like.that
07-20-2009, 05:12 AM
Agassi

Murray right now

:haha:

Deluded tard.

Only category in which Agassi would be top is syringe usage.

Action Jackson
07-20-2009, 05:26 AM
Nalbandian

Fiberlight1
07-20-2009, 05:29 AM
Andre.

easy

Skyward
07-20-2009, 05:36 AM
Andre.

easy

Agassi is not an active player. Anyway, I wanted to compare only these 4 players.

Clydey
07-20-2009, 05:47 AM
You've got a point, but he returns a lot of them.

:topic:

You could make the same argument about his 2nd serve; he's leading those stats but I don't believe he has the best 2nd serve, he just has the game and incredible outlasting ability to win those points in the long rallies.

The clay swing gives a false impression of his return of serve. It really gives his stats a boost. And we all know returns are nowhere near as important on clay.

GlennMirnyi
07-20-2009, 06:05 AM
:haha:

Deluded tard.

Only category in which Agassi would be top is syringe usage.

:lol:

True.

Too bad I can't post this, or I'll get another infraction.

JediFed
07-20-2009, 06:33 AM
Nalbandian when he wants to play.

Then Hewitt.

I'd rank Federer above Murray. Soderling who was all but unbreakable got destroyed. Murray doesn't do much other then get to the rally.

Nalbandian/Agassi and Hewitt can all destroy you on ROS.

jonathancrane
07-20-2009, 06:50 AM
Nalbandian

Forehander
07-20-2009, 07:25 AM
I'd go with Hewitt or Murray. Federer is nowhere near the best at return of serves. He use to be better, but lately when going against the other top guys his return has been disgusting.

FlavorNuts
07-20-2009, 07:44 AM
Fed does nothing but slice the ball into the middle of the court.
Murray returns aggressively every once in a while.
Nalbandian paints the lines on every return.

Goldenoldie
07-20-2009, 08:54 AM
Can anybody point me towards the stats for previous years? This year it is between Murray and Nadal, so in terms of the poll it is Murray.

Past years Murray's return was the best part of his game, compensating for his sometimes very weak serving, but I would only be guessing if I said it was better than the others.

Black Adam
07-20-2009, 09:01 AM
I see the thread title has been changed. Disappointed that Federer isn't winning the poll?:devil:;)

Forehander
07-20-2009, 09:50 AM
Fed does nothing but slice the ball into the middle of the court.
Murray returns aggressively every once in a while.
Nalbandian paints the lines on every return.

:haha: paint the lines on every return :haha:

Puschkin
07-20-2009, 09:58 AM
Nalbandian for me.

HattonWBA
07-20-2009, 10:07 AM
Nadal then Murray.

ballbasher101
07-20-2009, 11:18 AM
Hewitt was the best defensive first serve returner.
Agassi was the best aggressive first serve returner.
Fedclown is the best block returner against massive serves eg. Rodduck/Dr Ivo.
Second serve returns take your pick between Fat Dave, Agassi and Mugray.


Well put :wavey:.

samanosuke
07-20-2009, 11:26 AM
People are you serious, both Nalbandian and Hewitt are good returners when they are on ball , but against these two you can hit ace by ace, Karlovic against Hewitt on clay hit 55 and for example Ljubicic against Nalbandian in 6 sets hit 70 aces . Murray is the best by far , you can't out serve him , he is almost on every ball.

oranges
07-20-2009, 11:34 AM
Leng summed it up nicely

Clydey
07-20-2009, 12:07 PM
Can anybody point me towards the stats for previous years? This year it is between Murray and Nadal, so in terms of the poll it is Murray.

Past years Murray's return was the best part of his game, compensating for his sometimes very weak serving, but I would only be guessing if I said it was better than the others.

It was. Even in 2006, he finished in the top 5 for returning stats. Patrick McEnroe said in early 2007 that he felt Murray was the best returner in the game

leng jai
07-20-2009, 12:09 PM
Patrick McEnroe the tennis genius.

Clydey
07-20-2009, 12:22 PM
Patrick McEnroe the tennis genius.

The point was that he was considered amongst the best returners in the game even when he was ranked something like 16th in the world. I'm not suggesting that PMac is some sort of tennis guru.

There's a reason that Murray has broken Karlovic 11 times in their last 3 matches (all on hard). Unlike Hewitt, he didn't watch 55 aces go flying past him. On a clay court, no less.

oranges
07-20-2009, 12:34 PM
There's a reason that Murray has broken Karlovic 11 times in their last 3 matches (all on hard). Unlike Hewitt, he didn't watch 55 aces go flying past him. On a clay court, no less.

Yeah, it's called bad strategy. Whoever came up with the idea that he should take a bit off the first serve for a better percentage needs a spanking and a punch in the head. If anything, he should be serving first serves on both first and second.

Clydey
07-20-2009, 12:41 PM
Yeah, it's called bad strategy. Whoever came up with the idea that he should take a bit off the first serve for a better percentage needs a spanking and a punch in the head. If anything, he should be serving first serves on both first and second.

He wasn't taking anything off the first serve. When have you ever seen Ivo take pace off the first serve, his biggest weapon? It's not as if he needs to protect his second serve. It bounces up too high for it to be consistently attackable. He served the same way he always does, in all 3 matches.

oranges
07-20-2009, 12:43 PM
He wasn't taking anything off the first serve. When have you ever seen Ivo take pace off the first serve, his biggest weapon? It's not as if he needs to protect his second serve. It bounces up too high for it to be consistently attackable. He served the same way he always does, in all 3 matches.

Really? Perhaps other people watching the last one in Cincy or was it Roger's Cup can reinforce your view.

rocketassist
07-20-2009, 12:47 PM
Against Murray Ivo needs to be serving at about 70% first serves or else he finds them coming back too much.

MacTheKnife
07-20-2009, 12:48 PM
Well you change the poll question mid stream. That sorta changes the whole deal..

Clydey
07-20-2009, 12:49 PM
Really? Perhaps other people watching the last one in Cincy or was it Roger's Cup can reinforce your view.

It was Cinci. You don't even remember where it was played, let alone how Ivo served. Why would he randomly take pace off the first serve against the player many consider to be the best returner in the game? Because it worked so well when he was broken 6 times in the previous 2 matches against Murray? Murray actually broke him 10 times in 3 matches, not 11 times. Thought there were 3 breaks in San Jose. Turns out there were just 2.

Clydey
07-20-2009, 12:50 PM
Well you change the poll question mid stream. That sorta changes the whole deal..

What was the original wording?

MacTheKnife
07-20-2009, 12:52 PM
What was the original wording?

It did not include, "overall, not only this year". Made it seem it just meant who's the best returner "right now".

oranges
07-20-2009, 12:58 PM
It was Cinci. You don't even remember where it was played, let alone how Ivo served. Why would he randomly take pace off the first serve against the player many consider to be the best returner in the game? Because it worked so well when he was broken 6 times in the previous 2 matches against Murray? Murray actually broke him 10 times in 3 matches, not 11 times. Thought there were 3 breaks in San Jose. Turns out there were just 2.

Wow, you got me there. If I don't remember which one of the two following each other it was, I can't possible remember the match and the main impression, which was who the hell came up with that stupid idea. Perhaps you'll take it better if I reassure you that it was not meant as a dig at Murray, who is indeed a great returner. Don't want you losing sleeping over that.

Clydey
07-20-2009, 01:02 PM
Wow, you got me there. If I don't remember which one of the two following each other it was, I can't possible remember the match and the main impression, which was who the hell came up with that stupid idea. Perhaps you'll take it better if I reassure you that it was not meant as a dig at Murray, who is indeed a great returner. Don't want you losing sleeping over that.

I have all 3 matches. His first serve speed was no different to what it normally is. Why would he change a winning a game (he had just beaten Federer)? Taking pace off his biggest weapon only means he is likely to get in more rallies. He always serves a high percentage, so what you are saying simply doesn't add up. It seems like you're trying to explain the number of breaks of serve by manufacturing an excuse for Ivo. His serve is not something he has to tamper with. It's the one thing he relies on.

its.like.that
07-20-2009, 01:07 PM
:lol:

True.

Too bad I can't post this, or I'll get another infraction.

:lol:

How many have you had?

Surprising, I think I've only had 5 infractions since they were introduced. I wonder what the record is among active members on here :scratch:.

I'm sure I still hold the record for bannings amonst active users :smoke:.

leng jai
07-20-2009, 01:10 PM
Yeah mate, I just wanted to point out the Patrick McEnroe is a tennis genius. :)

oranges
07-20-2009, 01:28 PM
No amount of reassuring can unwind Clydey once he got his knickers in a bunch :lol: Is it hard to imagine that I'm just trying to point an extremely stupid strategy and you seem to agree it's a losing proposition.

leng jai
07-20-2009, 01:32 PM
:lol:

How many have you had?

Surprising, I think I've only had 5 infractions since they were introduced. I wonder what the record is among active members on here :scratch:.

I'm sure I still hold the record for bannings amonst active users :smoke:.

I've only got 1 ever :sad:

Apemant
07-20-2009, 01:44 PM
No way. Nadal is a decent returner, he's just exceptional off the ground when the rally gets going. I guess it would be like saying Federer is a better server than Karlovic because the game he backs it up with is so much better than Ivo's.

I would say Hewitt or Murray maybe. Nalbandian probably has the best offensive return and Federer the best defensive return. However Federer's offensive return sucks as does Nalbandian's defensive. Murray and Hewitt are more well rounded.

:worship:
This post is so sensible it doesn't belong to MTF...

its.like.that
07-20-2009, 02:09 PM
:worship:
This post is so sensible it doesn't belong to MTF...

This post is so shit it does belong on mtf.

:retard:

habibko
07-20-2009, 02:28 PM
at their very best:

Nalbandian
Hewitt
Federer
Murray

right now it's Murray.

Burrow
07-20-2009, 02:28 PM
Nalbandian better returner than Hewitt haha, I know you didn't watch tennis when he was number 1, so how do you know?

tennishero
07-20-2009, 02:37 PM
Nalbandian better returner than Hewitt haha, I know you didn't watch tennis when he was number 1, so how do you know?

its clear u dont like nalbandian. nalbandian > hewitt.

Collective
07-20-2009, 02:50 PM
Federer can make impressive returns, but his obsession with slicing second serves into the net makes it impossible to vote for him in this particular poll.

I'll go with Fatbandian from that group. Although Hewitt at his peak was incredible.

Collective
07-20-2009, 02:52 PM
its clear u dont like nalbandian. nalbandian > hewitt.

As in 2 Grand Slams > 0 Grand Slams or as in Wimbledon 2002?

I like Fatbandian's game, like I liked Ríos, but a beautiful game is no excuse for lack of results.

Clydey
07-20-2009, 02:59 PM
No amount of reassuring can unwind Clydey once he got his knickers in a bunch :lol: Is it hard to imagine that I'm just trying to point an extremely stupid strategy and you seem to agree it's a losing proposition.

But I'm telling you that he didn't employ that strategy. And I'm telling you why he wouldn't. I have all of those matches. I doubt anyone else has seen Ivo try to take a little off his first serve just so he can serve a high percentage. He serves a high percentage anyway. His first serve is one of the biggest weapons in the game. He's not going to take some MPHs off of it, especially against a player who is considered one of, if not the best, returners in the game.

I'm simply pointing out that what you are saying makes no sense, even if I hadn't seen Ivo's matches with Murray several times. Again, you are just trying to make excuses for Ivo. He didn't serve any differently.

DekuTheEvilClown
07-20-2009, 02:59 PM
Here's an example of how good Murrays return game is. Many people on mtf feel Federer has the "most destructive serve on the planet". In his last 6 matches against Murray he got broken 26 times.

tennishero
07-20-2009, 03:00 PM
Here's an example of how good Murrays return game is. Many people on mtf feel Federer has the "most destructive serve on the planet". In his last 6 matches against Murray he got broken 26 times.

murray beat federer when he was playing shit, and he lost the USO finals anyway.

Clydey
07-20-2009, 03:00 PM
at their very best:

Nalbandian
Hewitt
Federer
Murray

right now it's Murray.

Give me strength. :rolleyes:

Clydey
07-20-2009, 03:03 PM
Here's an example of how good Murrays return game is. Many people on mtf feel Federer has the "most destructive serve on the planet". In his last 6 matches against Murray he got broken 26 times.

I can anticipate the MTF response to this.

"Federer had a sore back. It affected his serve in all of those matches :sad:"

oranges
07-20-2009, 03:06 PM
Clydey, take a chill pill. I'm telling you he was going for safer serves. Either someone who has seen it will post their opinion or not.

DekuTheEvilClown
07-20-2009, 03:06 PM
murray beat federer when he was playing shit, and he lost the USO finals anyway.

Of course. Murrays only beats players when they're playing shit. So is Federer playing good again now? Since he won some tournaments beating the same players he never struggled ot beat in the last 18 months? He's still 3-14 vs Nadal/djokovic/murray over the last 18 months.


One of Murrays victories was against a peak 2006 Federer in Cincinatti btw.

tennishero
07-20-2009, 03:07 PM
As in 2 Grand Slams > 0 Grand Slams or as in Wimbledon 2002?

I like Fatbandian's game, like I liked Ríos, but a beautiful game is no excuse for lack of results.

as in better return... hewitt may have better results but thats because he puts a lot more effort much like nadal.

tennishero
07-20-2009, 03:09 PM
Of course. Murrays only beats players when they're playing shit. So is Federer playing good again now? Since he won some tournaments beating the same players he never struggled ot beat in the last 18 months? He's still 3-14 vs Nadal/djokovic/murray over the last 18 months.


One of Murrays victories was against a peak 2006 Federer in Cincinatti btw.

I'll give him that 2006 win, but the federer of today pales in comparison to his form a few years ago. Nalbandian beat him serveral times during his peak.

habibko
07-20-2009, 03:09 PM
Give me strength. :rolleyes:

long time no see mate :D

DekuTheEvilClown
07-20-2009, 03:09 PM
Clydey, take a chill pill. I'm telling you he was going for safer serves. Either someone who has seen it will post their opinion or not.


I saw that match. I'm actually pretty sure the commentators alluded to this(perhaps this is where it comes from) but imo it was total BS. His serve speeds were the same as other matches in the tournament but murray was simply getting to a lot of balls and making the serve look less devestating. Ivo regularly gets his First serve over 70%, he'd never take something off to get a few more in.

Clydey
07-20-2009, 03:11 PM
Clydey, take a chill pill. I'm telling you he was going for safer serves. Either someone who has seen it will post their opinion or not.

I am chilled. I'm just telling you that you're wrong and that what you are saying makes no sense. So whenever Ivo plays Murray, he goes for safer first serves? He takes away his only real weapon, his first serve...against the best returner in the world?

Clydey
07-20-2009, 03:14 PM
long time no see mate :D

Missing the tennis already. Wish it would hurry up and get back on television.

Skyward
07-20-2009, 03:14 PM
I see the thread title has been changed. Disappointed that Federer isn't winning the poll?:devil:;)

:wavey: No, I've just realized that a lot of posters don't remember/did not see Hewitt/Nalbandian playing at the beginning of this century.

Clydey
07-20-2009, 03:17 PM
:wavey: No, I've just realized that a lot of posters don't remember/did not see Hewitt/Nalbandian playing at the beginning of this century.

I did. Hewitt wasn't unlike Agassi, in that he did get aced a lot. Nalbandian is the best aggressive second serve returner in the world, but he's not even close to being the best at returning first serves.

habibko
07-20-2009, 03:17 PM
Missing the tennis already. Wish it would hurry up and get back on television.

same here :(

so you think Murray has got the best return out of the four? only now or at their best as well?

Clydey
07-20-2009, 03:23 PM
same here :(

so you think Murray has got the best return out of the four? only now or at their best as well?

As an all-rounder? Yes.

Hewitt got aced a lot. He did return better against serve/volleyers than Murray. I agree with an earlier poster on that point. However, he doesn't get as many back, nor does he return first serves as effectively (in other words, not just putting the ball in the middle of court off the return). Murray is a better second serve returner, too.

Nalbandian is a better aggressive returner than Murray off the second serve. Everything else goes to Murray.

Federer has a good blocked return. He absorbs pace well. However, Murray does this just as well and has more variety on his returns. I find it astounding that Federer actually chips back second serves.

Collective
07-20-2009, 03:27 PM
Let's settle the dispute by awarding Murray the "Best returner in tournaments that don't matter" title.

habibko
07-20-2009, 03:30 PM
As an all-rounder? Yes.

Hewitt got aced a lot. He did return better against serve/volleyers than Murray. I agree with an earlier poster on that point. However, he doesn't get as many back, nor does he return first serves as effectively (in other words, not just putting the ball in the middle of court off the return). Murray is a better second serve returner, too.

Nalbandian is a better aggressive returner than Murray off the second serve. Everything else goes to Murray.

Federer has a good blocked return. He absorbs pace well. However, Murray does this just as well and has more variety on his returns. I find it astounding that Federer actually chips back second serves.

is that your honest analysis or your fanboying side kickin' in? :rolleyes:

Federer has a good blocked return. He absorbs pace well. However, Murray does this just as well and has more variety on his returns.

if he does it just as well, why isn't he known for it then? no one blocks serves as well as Fed and that's a fact, Fed doesn't just "chip back" second serves, he slice them deep and basically resets the point and starts from neutral, no matter how good the second serve is, even Roddick's and Haas's gets neutralized that way, and Fed is confident in his rallying abilities that's why he doesn't go for an outright winner on the return, it's not like he CAN'T attack second serves. he chooses not to, and I should add that he is quite successful with his tactic no? :angel:

DekuTheEvilClown
07-20-2009, 03:36 PM
if he does it just as well, why isn't he known for it then? no one blocks serves as well as Fed and that's a fact, Fed doesn't just "chip back" second serves, he slice them deep and basically resets the point and starts from neutral, no matter how good the second serve is, even Roddick's and Haas's gets neutralized that way

Well it took Federer 38 return games to break Roddick once at Wimbledon.

Murray broke him twice in 22 return games.

Federer was apparently playing great during wimbledon too, Murray wasn't at his best.

Clydey
07-20-2009, 03:40 PM
is that your honest analysis or your fanboying side kickin' in? :rolleyes:



if he does it just as well, why isn't he known for it then? no one blocks serves as well as Fed and that's a fact, Fed doesn't just "chip back" second serves, he slice them deep and basically resets the point and starts from neutral, no matter how good the second serve is, even Roddick's and Haas's gets neutralized that way, and Fed is confident in his rallying abilities that's why he doesn't go for an outright winner on the return, it's not like he CAN'T attack second serves. he chooses not to, and I should add that he is quite successful with his tactic no? :angel:

That's my honest analysis. It's not like I'm the only one who holds that view. Murray is hated on here and leads the poll. That should tell you all you need to know.

Murray is known for his return of serve. Period. That includes his ability to absorb pace. He handles Roddick's serve just as well as Federer and he handles Karlovic's serve much, much better than Federer. Even Wimbledon demonstrates that fact. Roddick served at a higher percentage against Murray and he got broken twice in 4 sets. He served at a lower percentage against Federer and didn't get broken until right at the end of a match that finished 16-14 in the 5th.

Federer would be more successful with an aggressive strategy. There's a reason he is miles behind on return stats.

angry1
07-20-2009, 03:45 PM
is that your honest analysis or your fanboying side kickin' in? :rolleyes:



if he does it just as well, why isn't he known for it then? no one blocks serves as well as Fed and that's a fact, Fed doesn't just "chip back" second serves, he slice them deep and basically resets the point and starts from neutral, no matter how good the second serve is, even Roddick's and Haas's gets neutralized that way, and Fed is confident in his rallying abilities that's why he doesn't go for an outright winner on the return, it's not like he CAN'T attack second serves. he chooses not to, and I should add that he is quite successful with his tactic no? :angel:

Federer's by far the better player,Murray is(currently and IMO at their best)the better returner.Even at Wimbledon he broke Roddick more regularly in defeat than Fed did in victory,and has broken Karlovic more(%wise) in 2 of his 3 matches against him than Federer ever has.

Murray's 3rd in the world,even in GS points earned, while being mediocre at holding serve,that's because only Nadal compares as a returner.

Murray isn't as known for chipping back serves because he is effective with many returning approaches,if he could have defended his own serve as well as Nadal even let alone Federer,he would have a slam by now I firmly believe.

angry1
07-20-2009, 03:47 PM
Jeez, you wander off for 10 minutes,come back and 2 people have made the same point better and more concisely.

Mechlan
07-20-2009, 03:52 PM
Federer would be more successful with an aggressive strategy. There's a reason he is miles behind on return stats.

Federer's return is terrible these days. That's why he's tried to be more aggressive off the return, but we can all see he's just not as comfortable doing it as Murray or Nalbandian.

This poll is a a laugh if we're comparing current form, Murray is so far ahead. Comparing them at their peaks, Federer is a better returner of sheer pace. Murray is better at most everything else.

habibko
07-20-2009, 04:11 PM
Well it took Federer 38 return games to break Roddick once at Wimbledon.

Murray broke him twice in 22 return games.

Federer was apparently playing great during wimbledon too, Murray wasn't at his best.

I clearly said Murray is the best returner on tour right now.

That's my honest analysis. It's not like I'm the only one who holds that view. Murray is hated on here and leads the poll. That should tell you all you need to know.

Murray is known for his return of serve. Period. That includes his ability to absorb pace. He handles Roddick's serve just as well as Federer and he handles Karlovic's serve much, much better than Federer. Even Wimbledon demonstrates that fact. Roddick served at a higher percentage against Murray and he got broken twice in 4 sets. He served at a lower percentage against Federer and didn't get broken until right at the end of a match that finished 16-14 in the 5th.

well he did manage to win over Roddick and Murray couldn't, but yeah that didn't have to do with ROS, sorry I just had to rub that in.... :devil:

Federer would be more successful with an aggressive strategy. There's a reason he is miles behind on return stats.

debatable, he obviously feels comfortable doing what he is doing right now, and well he is winning so..

Clydey
07-20-2009, 04:14 PM
I clearly said Murray is the best returner on tour right now.



well he did manage to win over Roddick and Murray couldn't, but yeah that didn't have to do with ROS, sorry I just had to rub that in.... :devil:



debatable, he obviously feels comfortable doing what he is doing right now, and well he is winning so..

That doesn't mean he can't improve. And it isn't particularly debatable. He's miles behind on return stats. Obviously he could improve with a better strategy.

DrJules
07-20-2009, 08:33 PM
for those wondering why Federer was included in the list:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxzFlrFfUrg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DdTifgXsuA

DrJules
07-20-2009, 08:41 PM
To answer the question Murray.

He returns the three best servers in tennis Karlovic, Roddick and Federer better than anybody else.

ORGASMATRON
07-20-2009, 08:49 PM
Karlovic

Dini
07-20-2009, 08:54 PM
I think there's also the fact that Federer has played Karlovic and roddick a total of 7 times this year, and it's quite hard to take games of those two, hence his returning stats look more pathetic than if he hadn't played them that many times this year.

But yeah I believe he should be more agressive on his returns.

DrJules
07-20-2009, 09:04 PM
I think there's also the fact that Federer has played Karlovic and roddick a total of 7 times this year, and it's quite hard to take games of those two, hence his returning stats look more pathetic than if he hadn't played them that many times this year.

But yeah I believe he should be more agressive on his returns.

This is the major flaw of these statistics.

They do not give figures for returning the best servers; Karlovic, Roddick etc.

Last year at Queens club Nadal beat Karlovic in 3 tie break sets without a service break. At Wimbledon this year Federer break the Karlovic serve 2 times in 3 sets.

oz_boz
07-20-2009, 09:09 PM
IMO Fed and Rafa don't belong among the great returners for reasons stated alread; both are good at just getting the ball back and have a superior ground game to win the majority of those points. (Fed's return game 04-06 deserves a mention though for being ridiculously good at disarming big 1st serves, haven't seen many as good at that. Silly enough it seems he had, and still has, more problems with slower serves, still feeds on pace.)

In the poll it's a tossup between the 3 other guys, all are very good returners with the ability to both get back good 1st serves and jump on 2nd.

DrJules
07-20-2009, 09:10 PM
The point was that he was considered amongst the best returners in the game even when he was ranked something like 16th in the world. I'm not suggesting that PMac is some sort of tennis guru.

There's a reason that Murray has broken Karlovic 11 times in their last 3 matches (all on hard). Unlike Hewitt, he didn't watch 55 aces go flying past him. On a clay court, no less.

Well it took Federer 38 return games to break Roddick once at Wimbledon.

Murray broke him twice in 22 return games.

Federer was apparently playing great during wimbledon too, Murray wasn't at his best.

Here's an example of how good Murrays return game is. Many people on mtf feel Federer has the "most destructive serve on the planet". In his last 6 matches against Murray he got broken 26 times.

Does any other player have so much success against the best servers. So far this year Murray has broken the Roddick serve 5 times in 2 matches in 6 sets.

If Murray had a second serve like Federer there would be a different world number 1.

Clydey
07-20-2009, 10:16 PM
Does any other player have so much success against the best servers. So far this year Murray has broken the Roddick serve 5 times in 2 matches in 6 sets.

If Murray had a second serve like Federer there would be a different world number 1.

I think Federer's H2H with Murray would be more flattering if he was more aggressive when returning the second serve. Murray's second serve doesn't get punished enough. There are two players I've seen who have murdered Murray's second serve. The first one is Nalbandian. He really did a number on it in Paris last year. The second one, bizarrely enough, is Robin Haase. He was absolutely crushing second serve returns in Rotterdam last year against Murray.

Murray needs to be more aggressive on the big points to take the next step. He's too often content to wait for an error for fear of handing his opponent a point with an UE.