Tenth anniversary of NATO bombing of Serbia and Montenegro [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Tenth anniversary of NATO bombing of Serbia and Montenegro

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Bascule
03-24-2009, 02:16 PM
On march the 24th, 10 years ago, NATO started with bombing of ex SR Yugoslavia (today Serbia with Kosovo and Montenegro) which lasted for 78 days. "Merciful angel" (as NATO called the operation) killed more than 2500 civilians ("collateral damage" as NATO called those victims) were killed and 89 children among them and more than 1000 soldiers and police officers. Over than 12500 people were injured. Serbian infrastructure and economy were destroyed.

At midday, air raid sirens sounded throughout the country in a mark of remembrance for the victims.

You can still see some destroyed buildings at the center of Belgrade:

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/08/08/0808_disaster_tourism/image/3_belgrade_bombing.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/89/234896876_d321e0a4b1.jpg?v=0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9-kNJ3uf1_k/SCb06FkxdSI/AAAAAAAABCg/liKl9zrse30/s1600-h/McDonalds+Belgrade+(2).jpg

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=nato+1999+serbia+belgrade&s=int

JolánGagó
03-24-2009, 04:49 PM
That was sad but an exponentially bigger amount of innocent people were killed in the war of Serbia against everyone else. Dresden bombing was awful and unnecessary but at least the Germans learnt their lesson. Have Serbia?

buddyholly
03-24-2009, 04:59 PM
Jokevic is doing the Serbian bombing these days.

Tzar
03-24-2009, 05:17 PM
Nato :dance: :dance: :dance:

Bascule
03-24-2009, 05:18 PM
That was sad but an exponentially bigger amount of innocent people were killed in the war of Serbia against everyone else. Dresden bombing was awful and unnecessary but at least the Germans learnt their lesson. Have Serbia?

I can't believe you can be so mean and not objective at all....as well not informed, or bad informed. You compare the serbs with the nazis?
EVERY war, attack or bombing is BAD. I can think about american government what ever I want, but should I be happy seeing tweens in NY collapsing down murdering 3000 people just because they bombed us two years before?
Anyway, I made the same thread about 9/11 last september. I just thought then and now that we shouldn't forget the victims, as we should be against any attack, bombing or war. AND IT WAS A CRIME AS WELL IN NY AS IN SERBIA. War in ex Yu was a civil war, but this was an illegal, criminal act of agression against certain country and their people. So, you justify the bombing of China Embassy in Belgrade as well?:devil: Do you justify all the bombing USA have done til now? As on the middle east as well on Belgrade in 1944 because germans took Belgrade then, but they killed the innocent people again who were their allies. Why didn't they bomb Paris after Germans took Paris?
Again, Belgrade was demolished on april the 6th in 1941 by german airplanes, several times in 1944 by americabn airplanes and in 1999 again by majority of the Nato countries.
You are a JERK, sir, your kind of thinking is dangerous.
And, Serbia wasn't in war with everyone else. Serbs in Bosnia as well in Croatia lived them for centuries as well as croats and others, they were against the tearing apart of Yugoslavia, cause the frontiers were not justified. They were the constitutional people at those republics, not the national minority as albanians were in Serbia. And the serbs were THE bigest victims of the ethnical cleansing in those wars. The bigest part of all the refuges were the serbs.

Bascule
03-24-2009, 05:19 PM
As I remember you didn't make the jokes on the thread I started about 9/11.

Tzar
03-24-2009, 05:33 PM
STFU it's not the same thing.

Serbia was attacked by the NATO.

Usa was attacked by Al Qaeda.

Bascule
03-24-2009, 05:36 PM
STFU it's not the same thing.

Serbia was attacked by the NATO.

Usa was attacked by Al Qaeda.

NATO is more powerful teroristic organisation than Al Qaeda. So, we had harder time.

Tzar
03-24-2009, 05:37 PM
:haha: @ a serbian calling NATO a terroristic organization. :lol:

Bascule
03-24-2009, 05:40 PM
:haha: @ a serbian calling NATO a terroristic organization. :lol:

It's not the fact that I am a serbian, but I know a lot of amercans who think the same too.
The great majority of the people around the world think the same, as a matter of fact.

Tzar
03-24-2009, 05:47 PM
It's not the fact that I am a serbian, but I know a lot of amercans who think the same too.
The great majority of the people around the world think the same, as a matter of fact.

Well, being from eastern europe i understand.

Only because Russia is not a member of the NATO, you guys see it like a threat.

buddyholly
03-24-2009, 05:49 PM
NATO is more powerful teroristic organisation than Al Qaeda.

NATO may be more powerful than Al Quaeda, but if you really think that a great majority of people around the world think of it as a terrorist organization then you must be nuts.

If you state that it is a matter of fact, rather than just your opinion, then what is your factual evidence?

EKSTREMISTA
03-24-2009, 06:27 PM
Global Research, March 24, 2009
- 2009-03-19


24th March 2009 Belgrade Serbia

More than 80 % of NATO’s bombardments were directed at civilian targets, residential areas, work places, clinics and schools. More then 50,000 rounds with depleted uranium are creating long-term contamination of the environment, with the bombing of chemical production facilities, both the population and the environment were contaminated, cluster bombs and mines are continuing to kill even today .
NATO violated its own founding charter, the Helsinki Final Act of the OSCE and the Charter of the United Nations in launching this war of aggression. The sovereignty and territorial integrity guaranteed by the UN Charter was ignored and blatantly bombed away in the case of one of the United Nations’ founding member states, one of the victorious powers in World War II.
In spite of all the pretexts used to justify the war, on the occasion of its 50 th anniversary, NATO used this war to proclaim its intention to carry out global militarily interventions. Ten years ago, war opponents warned that the aggression against Yugoslavia served as a precedent for obliterating international law. In the meantime, this warning has been confirmed through the aggressions against Iraq and Afghanistan and the global “war on terror”.
The plans for a “greater Middle East,” the interference in Sudan, in Tibet and in the Caucasus, campaigns against Zimbabwe, Venezuela; Cuba, Somalia, Lebanon and particularly war threats directed at Iran, show that the imperialists seeking a “new world order” will implement their global economic and strategic interests with military means, thereby scorning the UN Charter with its renunciation of violence. The NATO aggression in 1999 consummated the preceding years of war by ***** to destroy Yugoslavia. Regime Change” was prepared to break the resistance to the dictates of the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the Pentagon and to place the marionettes of the western powers into office.
The dismemberment of Serbia, in violation of international law, was set in motion to deprive the resistance of its foundation for a long time to come.
With the establishment of an ad hoc tribunal in The Hague in violation of the UN Charter the aggressors sit in judgment over the aggressed. An unprecedented brain-washing through mass media, is intended to permanently implant NATO’s interpretation and its falsification of history in the popular mindset.
We are demonstrating March 24, 2009 in Belgrade, alongside the patriotic forces of the country, against this scandal. We will not allow the aggressors to write the history! The heads of state responsible for the aggression must be brought to trial as war criminals! The illegal ad hoc tribunal in The Hague must be dismantled and all of its political prisoners freed and compensated! We are demanding an independent investigation into the circumstances leading to the death of Slobodan Milosevic and all other mysterious cases of death in The Hague Tribunal’s prison!
The secession of Kosovo from Serbia is from the very outset null and void!
NATO out of the Balkans! Through our participation in the demonstration in Belgrade, we want to illustrate our solidarity with the people of Serbia, who, since 1991, have been and continue to be victims of a war waged by the West.

El Legenda
03-24-2009, 07:09 PM
:haha: NATO :yeah: its shame NATO stepped in when the Bosnians were about that take Banja-Luka in 1995.

buddyholly
03-24-2009, 07:13 PM
I checked "Global Research"
Now that is a fair and balanced info source!!!!!!!!

People from the Balkans are, to my knowledge, the only ethnic group to bring hooliganism to tennis tournaments. And just as security had to step in to stop the violence and property destruction spreading, so NATO had to step in to stop the Balkan hooliganism spreading across Europe.

zeleni
03-24-2009, 07:33 PM
What is "air strike"? Wind?
Orwellian language (like "humanitarian intervention" = war, or "collateral damage" = murdered civilians, etc) sucks!
Bascule, please change the title...

That was sad but an exponentially bigger amount of innocent people were killed in the war of Serbia against everyone else. Dresden bombing was awful and unnecessary but at least the Germans learnt their lesson. Have Serbia?

NATO is everyone?

Aside your lame comparison, answer is NO! History shows that Serbs refuse to "learn their lesson". Personally I am proud of that.;) (Nazis you refer to, couldn't make us "learn our lesson", so I don't see how can NATO.)

I guess Spaniards are better learners since they have withdrawn from Iraq after Madrid railway station bombing.:)

Bascule
03-24-2009, 07:52 PM
I checked "Global Research"
Now that is a fair and balanced info source!!!!!!!!

People from the Balkans are, to my knowledge, the only ethnic group to bring hooliganism to tennis tournaments. And just as security had to step in to stop the violence and property destruction spreading, so NATO had to step in to stop the Balkan hooliganism spreading across Europe.

Hitler would be proud of you.:worship:

buddyholly
03-24-2009, 08:02 PM
Hitler would be proud of you.:worship:

Whatever that means.

But wasn't it Hitler's goons that spread violence across Germany and subsequently across Europe? Unfortunately the rest of the world waited too long before stamping it out. I think maybe you got your post ass backwards.

Bascule
03-24-2009, 08:21 PM
Whatever that means.

But wasn't it Hitler's goons that spread violence across Germany and subsequently across Europe? Unfortunately the rest of the world waited too long before stamping it out. I think maybe you got your post ass backwards.


I got it. Uncle Sam has to teach all the savages around the world the lesson, as they already taught the american natives i.e. indians.:worship:

TMJordan
03-24-2009, 08:26 PM
again...
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RYLsyNBnE5M&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RYLsyNBnE5M&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Bascule
03-24-2009, 08:33 PM
again...
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RYLsyNBnE5M&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RYLsyNBnE5M&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

:D :hug:

...but not everyone is friendly like you.:sad:

Bascule
03-24-2009, 08:43 PM
What is "air strike"? Wind?
Orwellian language (like "humanitarian intervention" = war, or "collateral damage" = murdered civilians, etc) sucks!
Bascule, please change the title...



NATO is everyone?

Aside your lame comparison, answer is NO! History shows that Serbs refuse to "learn their lesson". Personally I am proud of that.;) (Nazis you refer to, couldn't make us "learn our lesson", so I don't see how can NATO.)

I guess Spaniards are better learners since they have withdrawn from Iraq after Madrid railway station bombing.:)

Spaniards learned more, since they refused to recognize Kosovo.

El Legenda
03-24-2009, 09:07 PM
again...
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RYLsyNBnE5M&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RYLsyNBnE5M&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

get lost you mug :ras:

buddyholly
03-24-2009, 10:07 PM
I got it. Uncle Sam has to teach all the savages around the world the lesson, as they already taught the american natives i.e. indians.:worship:

Something like that, but it wasn't actually Uncle Sam at the Oz Open, it was the Oz police. And a police spokesman said the Serbians on the grounds provoked the hooliganism by chanting, "Die, Croatians, Die'' outside the court where fans were watching Ancic.

But two years later it was a fight between Serbians and Bosnian fans of Delic.

At least the Serbs seem to make sure that nobody feels left out.

Bascule
03-24-2009, 10:40 PM
Something like that, but it wasn't actually Uncle Sam at the Oz Open, it was the Oz police. And a police spokesman said the Serbians on the grounds provoked the hooliganism by chanting, "Die, Croatians, Die'' outside the court where fans were watching Ancic.

But two years later it was a fight between Serbians and Bosnian fans of Delic.

At least the Serbs seem to make sure that nobody feels left out.

Yes, seems you also like the holywoodization of any story, like Clinton's cabinet tried to present: bad guys and good guys, superheroes and villains, black and white...and the wizard from oz said who were the bad guys...very mature!:yeah:
Your arguments are funny: they are hooligans, let's teach them with the bombs.

Anyway, I just wanted to evoke the memories of this horror we all survived and to say for all the victims: rest in peace. And never to be repeated to anyone.
The rest who came on this thread to provoke, it's on their own honor.

JolánGagó
03-24-2009, 11:03 PM
I can't believe you can be so mean and not objective at all....as well not informed, or bad informed. You compare the serbs with the nazis?
EVERY war, attack or bombing is BAD. I can think about american government what ever I want, but should I be happy seeing tweens in NY collapsing down murdering 3000 people just because they bombed us two years before?
Anyway, I made the same thread about 9/11 last september. I just thought then and now that we shouldn't forget the victims, as we should be against any attack, bombing or war. AND IT WAS A CRIME AS WELL IN NY AS IN SERBIA. War in ex Yu was a civil war, but this was an illegal, criminal act of agression against certain country and their people. So, you justify the bombing of China Embassy in Belgrade as well?:devil: Do you justify all the bombing USA have done til now? As on the middle east as well on Belgrade in 1944 because germans took Belgrade then, but they killed the innocent people again who were their allies. Why didn't they bomb Paris after Germans took Paris?
Again, Belgrade was demolished on april the 6th in 1941 by german airplanes, several times in 1944 by americabn airplanes and in 1999 again by majority of the Nato countries.
You are a JERK, sir, your kind of thinking is dangerous.
And, Serbia wasn't in war with everyone else. Serbs in Bosnia as well in Croatia lived them for centuries as well as croats and others, they were against the tearing apart of Yugoslavia, cause the frontiers were not justified. They were the constitutional people at those republics, not the national minority as albanians were in Serbia. And the serbs were THE bigest victims of the ethnical cleansing in those wars. The bigest part of all the refuges were the serbs.

Oh FFS, so it's a trolling thread :o I sensed I shouldn't have clicked :rolleyes:

buddyholly
03-25-2009, 02:52 AM
..and the wizard from oz said who were the bad guys...very mature!:yeah:


Not the wizard from oz said who were the bad guys, but the police from oz.

Human Rights Watch concluded 500 civilians were killed in the bombings, you say that 2500 were killed. Where does your number come from?

Bascule
03-25-2009, 03:34 AM
Not the wizard from oz said who were the bad guys, but the police from oz.

Human Rights Watch concluded 500 civilians were killed in the bombings, you say that 2500 were killed. Where does your number come from?

You are pathetic.

Anyway, you have the list of 3799 names in Branimir B. Stanojević's "The angel of mercy or the book of the dead"...and how, when and where they died during the NATO bombing.

finishingmove
03-25-2009, 04:05 AM
ah the good times...

school was disbanded, we could do whatever we wanted to...

dusk
03-25-2009, 06:27 AM
Have Serbia?

No they haven't. I can tell you since I was born there and have lived there till 3 years ago.
Serbia has learned NOTHING. It is still a nationalist, conservative, xenophobic, misogynist, homophobic country.
The territory is the biggest TURN ON in Serbia still (ohh the irony).
Some stupid muddy piece of land means more to Serbians than human lives.
It's pathetic that nothing has changed.

My post concerns 90% of the population. There is still that 10% that is sensible enough and I feel for them, because they have to live their lives surrounded by idiots.

-bitter mode off-

EKSTREMISTA
03-25-2009, 11:55 AM
a song for little angel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CQ7W1t7-P0

JolánGagó
03-25-2009, 03:27 PM
I got it. Uncle Sam has to teach all the savages around the world the lesson, as they already taught the american natives i.e. indians.:worship:

You're ignorant and utterly unoriginal.

Bascule
03-25-2009, 03:30 PM
No they haven't. I can tell you since I was born there and have lived there till 3 years ago.
Serbia has learned NOTHING. It is still a nationalist, conservative, xenophobic, misogynist, homophobic country.
The territory is the biggest TURN ON in Serbia still (ohh the irony).
Some stupid muddy piece of land means more to Serbians than human lives.
It's pathetic that nothing has changed.

My post concerns 90% of the population. There is still that 10% that is sensible enough and I feel for them, because they have to live their lives surrounded by idiots.

-bitter mode off-

Looking from the dark side of the moon, the GREAT MAJORITY of all the countries are just like that. You can talk like that to me, but not to jolangago who put the equality between serbs and nazis, you're firing his weird and wrong thoughts up.

Seriously, you guys are all crazy, if you can not show the respect to the innocent victims, why are you coming here with your destructive attitude and hate? How was possible when I open the thread about the victims in NY that everybody showed respect to them...what is this? Victims are victims. I am definitely becoming xenophobic and disgusted of you guys here on MTF.

El Legenda
03-25-2009, 03:32 PM
Seriously, you guys are all crazy, if you can not show the respect to the innocent victims, why are you coming here with your destructive attitude and hate?.

why did NATO bomb serbia?

JolánGagó
03-25-2009, 03:38 PM
Looking from the dark side of the moon, the GREAT MAJORITY of all the countries are just like that.

Excuse me but not the great majority of countries have recently engaged in a a genocidal ethnic-cleansing imperialistic war.

You can talk like that to me, but not to jolangago who put the equality between serbs and nazis, you're firing his weird and wrong thoughts up.

:haha: you're a clown. nuff said in this thread.

tennizen
03-25-2009, 04:31 PM
Bascule, I don't know what you expected when you started this thread. If you are just testing waters, you should be prepared for this kind of reaction:shrug: Do you really think people will react the same way about 9/11 and bombing of Serbia even if ideally they should. It's just foolish to raise such sensitive topics on a random message board unless it is your intention to be masochistic.

EKSTREMISTA
03-25-2009, 05:02 PM
10 years of NATO agression against Serbia (1999-2009)
24.3.2009.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_m47RlRiYoAg/SciEnr6ovrI/AAAAAAAACAY/9FpLX5yeHuQ/s400/302824_CK_pobednik.jpg
Today is exactly 10 years since NATO attacked Serbia and Serbian citizens - does anyone remember this ? I remember it very, very well, and I will never forget and forgive. But don't get me wrong, I never was a part of Slobodan Milosevic’s regime or a supporter, neither was my family; from the early 90's I was against that dictatorship, and I always took part in rallies against it, got beaten and arrested by his police, but what happened in 1999? Instead of chasing just him and only him, NATO bombarded entire Serbia, without any shame they attacked innocent civilians. OK, I've said: if you wanna kill Slobodan Milosevic - kill him, chase him, do whatever you want with that bastard, but why destroying the whole country ? Why destroying Serbia, why killing so many innocent civilians?! Today I know the answer - WHY? BECAUSE THEY CAN. Because the USA government and NATO can do whatever they want and not get punished for their crimes, because they are so powerful that nobody can mess with those guys.

So in the last few years we’ve seen the same thing happening also in Afghanistan and Iraq, but those are bigger countries so too many innocent people died; and don't try to sell me this shit about liberation of Iraq from Saddam Hussein, and liberation of Serbia from Slobodan Milosevic; if they really wanted to do that, they would have hired assassins and killed them… 'cause we know that they are capable of that, they killed so many people, so many dictators, presidents, all around the world during the last 60-70 years, and they are trying to say that they didn't manage to kill one Slobodan Milosevic and Saddam Hussein if they wanted?! Sell that story to someone else, not to me, please...

Another thing was at stake: in Iraq, as we can see today, hundreds of thousands people have been killed in that brutal war - but WHY ? For OIL, my brother, for OIL and nothing but the OIL.

And what happened in Serbia in 1999? They claimed it was a LEGAL act of aggression, but today we see that the only reason they destroyed the whole country instead of killing just one man, one dictator, was to get their NATO BASE in KOSOVO, the biggest NATO military base in this part of Europe- BONDSTEEL, and also to enable the independence for Kosovo, so that they can do whatever they want there. But OK, never mind (yeah sure), if you are more powerful than me, then you can do whatever you want; you can kill me and say that it was for humanitarian reasons. Does anyone get this? I'm sure that lots of people all around the world knows about this, but some people in the European Union and the USA still don't understand or don't want to understand what really happened! They really think that the NATO aggression in Serbia was an act for PEACE ?! (Zakuni se da je to bilo radi mira, gistro "humanitarni rat", borci za slobodu & shit, a okupirali ladno trecinu sveta).

And I've always wondered why liberal Americans had never made a protest against the NATO aggression in Serbia, and they make protests and documentary films against the war in Iraq all the time, they rebel etc. I was thinking about that subject, thinking and the thing came to my mind a few days ago. Up to 15,000 USA soldiers were killed in Iraq, and in Serbia only 2 (TWO). The only thing than can be concluded from that fact is that some Americans complain against their government only when their people are dying in Vietnam, Iraq and worldwide, but they are not really concerned for local citizens. Isn’t that hypocritical?! What should it mean? Maybe if Serbian forces have killed 10, 20 or maybe 100 American soldiers, now we would have protests against aggression in Serbia too, and a bunch of documentary films (something like Zeitgeist Addendum ?), and not just the ones that speak about (against) the occupation of Iraq. What’s the difference between the assault on Iraq, and the attack on Serbia? The only thing is that more people live in Iraq than in Serbia, so more people have been killed. During the NATO aggression in Serbia over 2000 innocent civilians lost their lives (collateral damage?!), and about 600 Serbian soldiers. The whole one country was destroyed. THE CLUSTER BOMBS and BOMBS WITH DEPLETED URANIUM were used too. And the World completely forgot about that?! This is why we mustn’t forget what they did to us in 1999 during the 78 days of bombing. THE WORLD can forget, but we just CAN'T - can YOU understand our causes?


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_m47RlRiYoAg/SciBwoFj01I/AAAAAAAACAI/01LMQBQnEg0/s400/mete_gadjanja.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_m47RlRiYoAg/SciB7iKApJI/AAAAAAAACAQ/wH9-ZLTL2K8/s400/ne_napadajte_americke_avione.jpg
The things you can see above are the leaflets thrown from the NATO airplanes in Serbia back in 1999 with the purpose to “domesticate” us. And below you can see the same leaflet with similar content that has been thrown in Iraq. A smart man sees the "difference".

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD NEVER BE FORGOTTEN. LIKE I SAID, THE WORLD MAY FORGET ABOUT THOSE NATO CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, BUT WE SERBS MUST NEVER!!!

IN REMEMBERANCE OF ALL THOSE PEOPLE in SERBIA and all around the WORLD that NATO WAR CRIMINALS BRUTALY KILLED (1999-2009)

http://abraxas365dokumentarci.blogspot.com/

El Legenda
03-25-2009, 05:34 PM
lets not forget the people of Kosovo that were murdered by the Serbs...which lead to NATO stepping in and stopping the Serbs from murdering even more people.

dusk
03-25-2009, 06:09 PM
You can talk like that to me, but not to jolangago who put the equality between serbs and nazis, you're firing his weird and wrong thoughts up.



I am talking to everybody who reads this thread.

As for Nazis, those bastards who wanted collaboration with Nazis in WWII, are seen as heroes in Serbia (something like Daily Mail fans in UK)

EKSTREMISTA
03-26-2009, 01:57 PM
lets not forget the people of Kosovo that were murdered by the Serbs...which lead to NATO stepping in and stopping the Serbs from murdering even more people.

German 2008 documentary - KOSOVO It began with a lie

German TV report by journalists Jo Angerer and Mathias Werth entitled "It Began With a Lie" provides proof of THE INCREDIBLE MANIPULATION of the public opinion carried out by NATO.


Germany's Social Democratic (SPD)-Green party coalition government employed fabrications and manipulated facts to overcome people's opposition to the participation of the German armed forces in NATO's war against Yugoslavia in 1999.

The REALITY:

SERBIANS did not commit any genocide! They were just trying to protect themselves againgst ALBANIANS who were killing them and forcing them out of their homes!
KOSOVO is(este) SERBIA!

Part 1
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=923_1214445796

Part 2
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=279_1214446102

Part 3
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7c8_1214446391

Part 4
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=142_1214446622

Part 5
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=645_1214446787

JolánGagó
03-26-2009, 02:18 PM
yeah sure, all lies... all the murdered in Srebenica and the hundreds killed by snippers and bombs in the markets and streets of Sarajevo were computer animated :rolleyes:

Machiavelli
03-26-2009, 02:24 PM
yeah sure, all lies... all the murdered in Srebenica and the hundreds killed by snippers and bombs in the markets and streets of Sarajevo were computer animated :rolleyes:

finally somethin that makes sense from you, don't forget Vukovar, after Srebrenica the biggest tragedy of the war...

The author of this thread is a pure comedian, i feel sorry for the victims of that bombing, but saying serbs,croats and bosnians are all here with the same guilt is a disgrace...

JolánGagó
03-26-2009, 02:36 PM
finally somethin that makes sense from you, don't forget Vukovar, after Srebrenica the biggest tragedy of the war...

Im sense on two legs :shrug:

no equal gilt in this case. no collective gilt either but, hey, civilians weren't the bombing target but a putrid goverment who did target civilians and was elected by its people.

not that Croatians didn't elect that facist-esque clown Tudjman either BTW.

EKSTREMISTA
03-26-2009, 03:35 PM
hey, civilians weren't the bombing target but a putrid goverment who did target civilians and was elected by its people.



WHITE BOOK vol. I
NATO WAR CRIMES in Yugoslavia 1999.


WARNING: THESE FILES CONTAIN GRAPHIC IMAGES THAT YOU MAY FIND DISTURBING.

BOMBING OF A REFUGEE COLUMN ON THE DJAKOVICA - PRIZREN ROAD, 14 APRIL 1999
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/00.htm#

BOMBING OF RESIDENTIAL HOUSES IN TOWNS AND VILLAGES
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/00.htm#2

BOMBING OF MEDICAL FACILITIES
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/00.htm#

BOMBING OF EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/00.htm#

BOMBING OF CULTURAL MONUMENTS
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/00.htm#



BOMBING OF BRIDGES AND COMMUNICATIONS
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/00.htm#

BOMBING OF RELAYS AND REPEATERS
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/00.htm#

BOMBING OF ECONOMIC FACILITIES
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/00.htm#

BOMBING OF OIL AND OIL PRODUCT STORAGE DEPOTS
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/00.htm#

BOMBING OF SPORTS AND RECREATIONAL FACILITIES AND HOTELS
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/00.htm#

NinaNina19
03-26-2009, 03:38 PM
lets not forget the people of Kosovo that were murdered by the Serbs...which lead to NATO stepping in and stopping the Serbs from murdering even more people.

The reason NATO stepped in to help the Albanians is for American military interests. Yes it's true the Serbs did awful things to the Albanians, but the Albanians did equally horrific things to the Serbs. My mom's best friend's brother was killed by Albanians in Kosovo, several of my mother's childhood friends were killed by Albanians from Kosovo. My mom is half Albanian and she is against Kosovo for Albania. She actually knows something about the history of the area unlike you and I'm pretty sure she isn't biased toward the Serbs. The Western media is very anti-serb and a lot of things are twisted to depict serbs as the enemy and Albanians as the victims when really it's a lot more complicated than that.

Bascule
03-26-2009, 03:52 PM
finally somethin that makes sense from you, don't forget Vukovar, after Srebrenica the biggest tragedy of the war...

The author of this thread is a pure comedian, i feel sorry for the victims of that bombing, but saying serbs,croats and bosnians are all here with the same guilt is a disgrace...

I may be the pure comedian for talking to you about sensitive matter, but don't see anything wrong in mentioning something what marked this day - the tenth anniversary of the death of hundreds of innocent people...I didn't mention croats, albanians or others and had no attention to talk about politics.
I don't get it how the rest of you came here with such hate in the thread just dedicated to the killed.
But, as you mention what ever....why didn't you, Machiavelli, mention that the same percentage of the citizens in Vukovar were serbs and that you did the pure ethnic cleansing of serbs among the frontiers of today Croatia and with american help...my family was massacred by ustashis in the ww2 and now the old ones who left there were banished and their property destroyed. I still can't go there because you ruined our old house and took the condo you don't wanna give back. Do I have to mention that no one ever in my family fight against croats, not even then and not now.
I personally have no reason to be ashamed of anything, I started the students protests twice - we were against any violence as well as sanctions and bombing. As I said before, no one was innocente in this war, it was a civil war among three ethnic groups. And I am surely good informed. Albanians started with the terroristic activities to take the part of our teritory. I wonder what would americans do in that case? The amount of the killed was similar on both sides. Yes they were repressed by serbian police because of OVK for years, but there is no serbs anymore on Kosovo and albanians even more than before.
Anyway, this is pathetic and this is where this thread should not go, but showing such hate and lack of compassion for mentioning the victims of the bombing is beyond my mind.

habibko
03-26-2009, 03:55 PM
The reason NATO stepped in to help the Albanians is for American military interests. Yes it's true the Serbs did awful things to the Albanians, but the Albanians did equally horrific things to the Serbs. My mom's best friend's brother was killed by Albanians in Kosovo, several of my mother's childhood friends were killed by Albanians from Kosovo. My mom is half Albanian and she is against Kosovo for Albania. She actually knows something about the history of the area unlike you and I'm pretty sure she isn't biased toward the Serbs. The Western media is very anti-serb and a lot of things are twisted to depict serbs as the enemy and Albanians as the victims when really it's a lot more complicated than that.

media is the last place you should seek to know the truth from, it only shows you parts of the truth or just whatever serves the interests of the media owner, this should be a well known fact since we are living in the 21st century :shrug:

but that doesn't mean Serbia is the victim or something, it means people should stop bashing a whole country and its people and only charge those who were indeed guilty, in war alot of innocents are involved in many ways, it's the sad truth.

NinaNina19
03-26-2009, 04:02 PM
media is the last place you should seek to know the truth from, it only shows you parts of the truth or just whatever serves the interests of the media owner, this should be a well known fact since we are living in the 21st century :shrug:

but that doesn't mean Serbia is the victim or something, it means people should stop bashing a whole country and its people and only charge those who were indeed guilty, in war alot of innocents are involved in many ways, it's the sad truth.

Agreed, good post. Two wrongs don't make a right.

JolánGagó
03-26-2009, 04:29 PM
As I said before, no one was innocente in this war, it was a civil war among three ethnic groups.

This is very true but it was the goverment of Serbia who triggered the whole thing by trying to prevent Croatia and Slovenia from independence and when failed then tried to get rid in Bosnia Herzegovina and the whole of Serbia including Kosovo of people from other ethnicities and religions. That's the sad reality whether you like or not. Im sure many Serbians and Serbs didn't agree with the sistematic murder carried on by their goverment and militias but basically Milosevic was elected I think twice by the people of Serbia.

You guys, all of you, were merrily slaughtering each other as if there was no tomorrow and Europe was being swamped by hordes of ethnically cleansed refugees. Something had to be done so the bombing came as a weapon of last resource.

habibko
03-26-2009, 04:58 PM
You guys, all of you, were merrily slaughtering each other as if there was no tomorrow and Europe was being swamped by hordes of ethnically cleansed refugees. Something had to be done so the bombing came as a weapon of last resource.

agreed, are people actually blaming the NATO now? if the world did nothing you go insane and when the world does act to stop the massacres you also complain?

....

q.j.
03-26-2009, 07:38 PM
Im sense on two legs :shrug:



:haha: :haha: :haha:
i love this line :D

with the 95 % of the stuff you wrote here i absolutely agree
don't be too quick tough, to judge 8 million people, based on the sample of posters you read in this forum, and always be aware of those 5% of the facts that escape you, because them matter too. :)

zeleni
03-26-2009, 08:36 PM
Im sense on two legs :shrug:

no equal gilt in this case. no collective gilt either but, hey, civilians weren't the bombing target but a putrid goverment who did target civilians and was elected by its people.

not that Croatians didn't elect that facist-esque clown Tudjman either BTW.
Smart ass...
Following your arguments... Spanish people elected Asnar putrid government which sent army to kill civilians in Iraq. => Al Qaeda attack on Madrid 2004. was rightful.:wavey:
Further more, Al Qaeda terrorist attack on Madrid was more justified than NATO terrorist attack on Serbia and Montenegro because Spain sent its army to foreign country few thousands miles away from home, while Serbia fought against terrorism on its own soil. :wavey:

Bascule
03-26-2009, 08:41 PM
How can bombing, killing of civilians and destroying a country be a solution for inter ethnics fightings?
No logic. It's just another crime and committed never, but in their own egoistic purposes. USA as some european countries did make mistakes which flamed the fights and differences among those groups and I actually think that was their intention.
And I can't believe that you guys know only to spit on some "savages" who lived in piece before that together in the same country until someone from aside came to inspire the fights for their own interests. Look, we have very important strategic position, and Serbia was always the interesting zone for Russia. Simply, in your comments, there is lack of intellectual analysis, I still can't believe that you agree with american foreign politics which was destructive to lot of countries where they had their interests...and actually make fights with Russia or China in the background...there are lot of examples in the recent history. And why only china embassy was bombed in Belgrade, you really believe it was an accident...and the sudden coming of the russians before nato troups on Kosovo, what made a sensation, did you think about that? USA took a part of the serbian teritory and made the largest american army basis in Europe - on the russian interesting zone actually. 1:0 for USA.
And also, you justify the killing to stop the fighting between two groups? Modern bombing is much more horrify than ever and it strikes the civilians the most, the infrastructure, not to mention the trauma and causes by dangerous elements as uranium.....in the next years lot of civilians died here, more than ever, as the effect of stress and radiation...much more abortion and twins were born than ever....people lost their jobs because their factories were destroyed...and much more!
Fighting the fire with the fire is not the solution and I can't believe to american government that it was for humanitarian reasons. Can you? After all USA has done in last 30-40 years all around the globe? Are you so naive or you just love to pose like arrogant "intellectuals" with lack of compassion and lack of knowledge? It's obvious that those trials didn't affect you at all. Things were not as they were presented on TV, anyway, situation was much more complicated and your shallow brains love to simplify the things like in some pathetic hollywood movie. Atomic bombs on Japan were the horror and no one payed for it. Do you justify that? Anyway, even if you do, there was not so large front area in serbia as in the WWW2, as not so much victims as then and there was no reason for committing another crime, you actually don't solve the problem on that way, but just make it worse. How many victims were on Kosovo before the bombing, do you know? And serbian army fight the terrorists on serbian soil, what would americans do in that case, I'm asking you?
It's easy to look from aside and spit with the arrogance. I am sure that you wouldn't talk like that if you were born on Balkan. The situation on Balkan is very complicated, mostly because the foreign power countries and their aspirations here.
And, for the end, I sincerely wish to all of you to never experience any bombing of the modern times as well as banishing from your own houses or killing. I feel sorry for the all innocent victims in ex Yu.

zeleni
03-26-2009, 08:45 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha:
i love this line :D

with the 95 % of the stuff you wrote here i absolutely agree
don't be too quick tough, to judge 8 million people, based on the sample of posters you read in this forum, and always be aware of those 5% of the facts that escape you, because them matter too. :)

Poor baby... Don't be afraid of misunderstanding.:hug: You worms are easy to distinguish from humans.:)

Vida
03-26-2009, 08:59 PM
these issues are very complicated to distinguish good from bad (what many people are prone to doing). one has to understand entire complexity of situation and to have a very very good knowledge of history to be able to draw any conclusions.

that said, all I can do is salute the victims of this sad event.

q.j.
03-26-2009, 09:09 PM
Poor baby... Don't be afraid of misunderstanding.:hug: You worms are easy to distinguish from humans.:)

:awww: this hurts :sad:

TMJordan
03-26-2009, 09:20 PM
ah the good times...

school was disbanded, we could do whatever we wanted to...

You see...I would have loved this.

Ilovetheblues_86
03-26-2009, 11:24 PM
Someone should transport Serbian´s churches to Serbian territory ;)

JolánGagó
03-27-2009, 12:36 AM
Smart ass...
Following your arguments... Spanish people elected Asnar putrid government which sent army to kill civilians in Iraq. => Al Qaeda attack on Madrid 2004. was rightful.:wavey:
Further more, Al Qaeda terrorist attack on Madrid was more justified than NATO terrorist attack on Serbia and Montenegro because Spain sent its army to foreign country few thousands miles away from home, while Serbia fought against terrorism on its own soil. :wavey:

Your stupidity and lack of logical skills seems to have no limit, you might want to have a look at the ACC nominations thread where some of our Grandees disect intelligence to see if you can get by chance infected with some.

JolánGagó
03-27-2009, 12:38 AM
don't be too quick tough, to judge 8 million people, based on the sample of posters you read in this forum, and always be aware of those 5% of the facts that escape you, because them matter too. :)

Sure but what can we do, this is just an internet "tennis forum" :shrug: ;)

q.j.
03-27-2009, 12:55 AM
Your stupidity and lack of logical skills seems to have no limit, you might want to have a look at the ACC nominations thread where some of our Grandees disect intelligence to see if you can get by chance infected with some.

remember though when you posted pics of Arbus and LaChapelle (although i didn't like the exact pix you made he has some much better earlier works :p) and he, obviously clueless who this legends in their own right are, goes out and calls you a faggot, only to post this second rate pics as far as our entire art heritage is concerned ( cause we have so much better painters and paintings from one of the guys he posted)
to show off a bit :haha:
and you think anything will be rubbing off of him, or even infect him
:haha:
fat chance !

Aloimeh
03-27-2009, 06:20 AM
Excuse me but not the great majority of countries have recently engaged in a a genocidal ethnic-cleansing imperialistic war.



:haha: you're a clown. nuff said in this thread.

Man, you really mess up here.

First, where does Human Rights Watch get their number? I mean, it's always likely that the authorities will exaggerate things, but Human Rights Watch didn't really have investigators on the ground to determine who was killed, how, etc. I have no idea if 2500 people were killed by the bombing. What I do know is that HRW is very conservative when it comes to Serb victims (e.g. 500 killed in 1999, 500 killed in the Croatian "Storm" operation) but is not so conservative when it comes to alleged victims of Serbs (10,000 Kosovo Albanians, 8000 Srebrenica). These figures have not been supported by forensics and it's remarkable how static they are since the end of the conflict. Typically numbers are drastically overestimated and then must be revised down. In the Kosovo case, several thousand Albanians were killed - both civilians and KLA - by the Yugoslav army, the police, various paramilitaries, the KLA itself (yes, they did kill "noncompliant" Albanians, e.g. government employees such as postal workers) and the NATO bombing. No where near 10,000 Albanian civilians were killed by Milosevic's forces. HRW goes along with this figure, based on witness statements and statistical extrapolations and pronouncements of the US State Department (which once claimed that 100,000 Albanian men had been killed), rather than hard forensics.

As for the following terms: genocide, ethnic cleansing, imperialistic war, etc. - it's all pretty meaningless. In reverse order:

Imperialism: An empire is a State with politico-military dominion of populations who are culturally and ethnically distinct from the imperial (ruling) ethnic group and its culture [4] — unlike a federation, an extensive State voluntarily composed of autonomous states and peoples.

Now, here's an ethnic map from 1991:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b6/Demographics_Yugoslavia.jpg

Did the Serbs push for a war in Slovenia or Macedonia? In Macedonia, there was no war, except perhaps between Albanians (again!) and Macedonians. In Slovenia, there was a short 10-day skirmish between the Yugoslav National Army and Slovenian paramilitaries. The Serbian army, the Serbian police, and Milosevic weren't involved.

So where were the conflicts? Primarily in territories that had a Serb plurality or majority (Croatian and Bosnian areas) and territory that was legally and historically part of Serbia (Kosovo). The Serbs of Croatia and Bosnia had only once before been part of independent Croatia and Bosnia - 1941-1944. And that time, it was real genocide - Jasenovac and all the rest. The Croatian Serbs largely settled there in the 1500s under duress, they were transferred from the rule of the Austro-Hungarian empire (which was frankly a lot more benevolent than either Pavelic's or Tudjman's Croatia) to the rule of a multi-ethnic Yugoslavia ruled by the Serbian and later Yugoslav royal family. They felt secure in Yugoslavia whereas they did not feel secure in WWII Croatia or 1991 Croatia. We've seen the results in both cases: in WWII, Croatia killed them, and in 1991-1995 Croatia expelled them. So it is only logical that in 1991 Croatian Serbs (12% of the population) wanted to remain in a secure Yugoslavia, since the only prior incarnation of Croatia they knew was genocidal towards them and the 1991 Croatia was similarly anti-Serb and menacing (although admittedly not genocidal). Now, I'm not justifying any crimes perpetrated in those wars, but in Croatia it's pretty even. Probably more Serb civilians were killed than Croat civilians (certainly a lot more Croat soldiers were killed, though). And ethnic cleansing against the Serbs in all cases - first Dalmatia in 1991, then Medak pocket in 1993, then Western Slavonia in early 1995, then Banija-Kordun-Lika aka Krajina in late 1995 - was permanent and never reversed. Serbs went from 12% to 4%. Bosnia was pretty much the same thing. Muslim rule of Bosnia under the Ottomans meant subjugation and second rate status or worse for Serbs and Croats. WWII Bosnia was even worse - run by the NDH, Bosnian Serbs were rounded up for Jasenovac or killed off by Ustase and their Muslim allies. It is only logical that the 31-37% Serbs were not prepared to be lorded over by a centralized Sarajevo-ruled state dominated by 41-45% Muslims (these numbers are always fuzzy), especially given the history.

So, I really don't understand what empire we are talking about here. Dalmatia and Slavonia (not to mention Istria) are recent Croatian acquisitions. Historically, medieval Croatia was centered in Zagorje, (ironically) the Krajina territory, and central Bosnia. The Dalmatian and Slavonian Serbs should have been treated with the same rights of self-determination (from Hungary, Venice, or Austria) as Croats. As for Bosnia, the case is even worse. Bosnia never had a national identity. Bosnia was ruled by Croatian, Hungarian, and Serbian medieval rulers. It's just a territory, not a nation-state. Muslims didn't exist there before the 1400s and are actually Serb or Croat converts to Islam. Why should the Serbs, whose numbers were decimated in WWII and who lived through Ottoman hell, take orders from Muslims who relatively recently became a plurality and treated them historically with contempt and participated in Croatian-organized genocide?

The closest you come to "empire" is Kosovo, which is admittedly majority Albanian. Even that doesn't really hold up because the Albanian majority is recent (not like your Basques, who predate Spaniards by thousands of years) and the result of Ottoman importation and expulsion of the Christians and Communist policies that blocked Serbs from returning. The cards were always stacked against the Kosovo Serbs and from ~50:50 in the late 1800s, now they are 5%. So who has been expanding an empire - "Greater Serbia" or Greater Albania?

As for ethnic cleansing, that's a completely meaningless and ambiguous term. It could mean murder. It could mean ****. It could mean expulsion. It could mean arson. It could mean the threat of violence. It could mean anything that mobilized an ethnic/religious group to leave/flee. But, on the whole, it means expulsion accompanied by sporadic violence which fuels the fear that facilitates expulsion. Conflating that with genocide is absurd. Expulsion has occurred 1000s of times throughout history in Europe and elsewhere and there's nothing bizzarre about it. I'm not saying it's OK, just that it shouldn't be thrown in with genocide - which is a serious and organized extermination attempt.

As for genocide, I'd really like to know what evidence there is for anything *close* to genocide in Croatia and Kosovo. In Croatia, 10,000 people are estimated to have died from a population of 4 million; many of the victims were Serbs and probably a larger number of civilian victims were Serbs (yes, in Vukovar, too, by some estimates 1000 Serbs were killed). In Kosovo, the number of dead is in the few thousands out of 1.5 million people, and the victims are disproportionately Serbs. These are tragedies but are they really *genocide*? Bosnia, I admit, had a much larger death toll and was a more vicious conflict than the other two. But recent studies indicate approximately 100,000 victims out of 3.5 million people, over 3.5 years, majority *military*. I've seen estimates that the victims were 60-65% Muslim, 25-30% Serb, and 10% Croat, although I don't know the civilian/military breakdown and wouldn't trust it if I saw it (these statisticians love claiming Serb civilians are military and Muslim military are civilians). While certainly the Muslim bore the brunt of that war and atrocities, a figure of 25-30% Serbs is not insubstantial, and when one considers the fact that about 500,000 Serbs were expelled out of the Muslim-Croat territories (and 750,000 Muslims and Croats expelled in total, mostly but not entirely by Serbs (Muslims and Croats had their own war and expelled each other)), it doesn't seem like the Serbs were guilty of 99% of atrocities as the media would make you believe

Clearly you're misinformed. It would be wise that you stay quiet when you don't know what you're talking about. The conflicts in the Balkans and their recorded history are *controversial* for a reason. The historical record never has the level of unanimity that it has about things like the Holocaust or WWII Japan. These conflicts were complex, the history behind them is complex, there were massive victims on all sides, there was massive covert and overt involvement by foreign powers ranging from Germany and the US to Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Russia, and abusing language by using cheap and inaccurate phrases such as "genocide" or "imperialism" really does nothing but spoil the debate for everyone.

Aloimeh
03-27-2009, 06:41 AM
yeah sure, all lies... all the murdered in Srebenica and the hundreds killed by snippers and bombs in the markets and streets of Sarajevo were computer animated :rolleyes:

Not necessarily all lies. Maybe some misinformation and exaggeration. What you fail to understand is that the media did not report on Serb victims. Had it reported, it wouldn't be so morally clear as it seems to you at first. While Serbs snipers were sniping Muslims in Sarajevo, Muslim warlords were ransacking Serb apartments, kidnapping Serbs, and murdering hundreds of them throughout the city. Just a few names of Sarajevo warlords: Musan Topalovic "Caco", Jusuf Prazina "Juka", Ismet Bajramovic "Celo", Ramiz Delalic "Celo", and there are many others. None of them have faced justice. One notorious place where Serbs were murdered and disposed is a place called the Kazani pits on a mountain in Sarajevo. Just because your media didn't report on these things doesn't mean they didn't happen. My father's good friend, a Montenegrin, was kidnapped and presumably killed by Sarajevo Muslims. And today, Sarajevo, once 38% Serb, is about 5% Serb now.

Also, at least two of those Sarajevo incidents, Vase Miskina and Markale, are seriously in doubt as being perpetrated by the Bosnian Serbs - especially Markale. Lots of forensics suggests that the bomb was locally detonated and that could only have been done by the Muslims themselves. The interests were clear - galvanize NATO to bomb the Serbs, which is what happened.

As for Srebrenica, again the media doesn't tell you what happened before 1995 and the full story of 1995. Before 1995, this "safe haven" was ruled by a Muslim warlord called Naser Oric. Naser Oric is believed to have led units that killed around 1000 Serbs, civilians, POWs, and soldiers in villages around Srebrenica. He torched at least 50 Serb villages. Clearly the Dutch were not keeping the area demilitarized as they ought to have. The 1995 massacre is a tragedy, I really do think hundreds if not thousands of Muslims, many of them completely innocent civilians, were murdered, and that's a great tragedy and a shame. On the other hand, I believe a large number of people were shot as they were fleeing to Tuzla, and while it's not right to shoot at a former military unit fleeing from you, it's not the same as an outright massacre. Regardless, I think the burden of Srebrenica is on the Serbs (even considering Naser Oric's actions), they've been dealing with it for the last nearly 15 years, and unfortunately Serbia, which had nothing to do with it, is also dealing with it. Milosevic didn't know about it until after it happened and it wasn't perpetrated by the Serbian army or police (there may have been volunteers, of course). The Dutch report exonerates Milosevic of involvement in Srebrenica and the ICJ exonerates Serbia of perpetrating it. It was done by Bosnian Serb units and it is time to stop abusing that massacre as propaganda to do away with the Bosnian Serbs' political autonomy, which is what the Muslims and Western leaders are doing over and over again. That can only lead to another war and more bloodshed.

Aloimeh
03-27-2009, 06:53 AM
finally somethin that makes sense from you, don't forget Vukovar, after Srebrenica the biggest tragedy of the war...

The author of this thread is a pure comedian, i feel sorry for the victims of that bombing, but saying serbs,croats and bosnians are all here with the same guilt is a disgrace...

People who are informed know that Vukovar was nothing like what you've portrayed it as being. It was a conflict between the legal JNA and the illegal HDZ paramilitaries - primarily the units of Tomislav Mercep, who was no better than Arkan. Serbs were murdered in Vukovar and the environs (Borovo Selo), just like Croats. It just so happens that the Serbs/JNA won and did the most killing at the end, whereas the Croats did the killing before and during the siege, like dragging people out of shelters and shooting them, and Croat fascist soldiers cowardly hiding in Vukovar hospital in patient pajamas ("Dr." Vesna Bosanac helped them with that) after killing Serbs.

Please, whining Croats and Albanians are pathetic. You gave as good as you got and worse. You got your Serb-free country/"country" (since Kosovo is a joke country, of course), so stop crying victim. It was a war, and you won it with support from your Western bosses/mentors. Go ahead and torch those remaining Serb churches, erect your monuments to "Croat" Tesla in the ex-Serb town of Gospic and claim that Kosovo *really* is an ancient Dardanian name for Illyria, and move on with your lives.

The only group I can stand whining (aside from the Serbs, who have been truly screwed over by the media) is the Bosnian Muslims, who for all their stupidity in being seduced by the backstabbing Croats to get these silly ideas of "independent" Bosnia (NATO/EU controlled of course), were f****d pretty bad by the Serbs and Croats. I feel pity for them until I see their headcutting mujahedeen and realize that they were pretty much just as disgusting as the other two groups, just had less power to perpetrate what they wanted to.

Aloimeh
03-27-2009, 07:22 AM
This is very true but it was the goverment of Serbia who triggered the whole thing by trying to prevent Croatia and Slovenia from independence and when failed then tried to get rid in Bosnia Herzegovina and the whole of Serbia including Kosovo of people from other ethnicities and religions. That's the sad reality whether you like or not. Im sure many Serbians and Serbs didn't agree with the sistematic murder carried on by their goverment and militias but basically Milosevic was elected I think twice by the people of Serbia.

You guys, all of you, were merrily slaughtering each other as if there was no tomorrow and Europe was being swamped by hordes of ethnically cleansed refugees. Something had to be done so the bombing came as a weapon of last resource.

Now, here you get stupid again. First, Serbia didn't stop Slovenia from leaving. Ante Markovic, a Croat, sent in the army to block them. Milosevic didn't control the JNA. Sure, he probably opposed it since he knew it could mean the unravelling of the rest of the country (it did), but in principle he didn't care much for Slovenia - neither did Serbs, nor do they care now. If only the rotten Slovenes would stop lording it over everyone else in ex-Yugoslavia by blocking Croatia's entry into the EU and championing Kosovo's secession from Serbia, we couldn't care less about them. They're really much more like Germans than any other neighboring group.

"Get rid of Bosnia-Herzegovina." Let's get this straight: many Serbs and Croats see no legitimacy in that state, nor do I. It is *just* a territory, a region, with no history as an independent nation state. In medieval times its rulers were Serb, Croat, Hungarian, etc. but never "Bosnian." They are a territory demarcated by the Drina and Sava-Una rivers and the Dinaric Alps and that's it. Their Muslim population is a religious group but they are ethnically the same as Serbs and Croats and speak the same language. The majority of the population (Serbs and Croats together forming over 50%) does not consider itself Bosnian and identifies itself first and foremost with Serbia or Croatia. Furthermore, this majority nominally Christian population precedes the Muslim population historically and it's interests, in the contexts of Ottoman rule, need to be taken into account. I think Bosnia should have been peacefully partitioned in Serb, Croat, and Muslim areas - let the Serbs join Serbia if they like and Croats join Croatia. The current "Swiss model" is a recipe for disaster. Most non-Muslims laugh at the flag (a modified EU flag, just like that Kosovo flag) and any and all trappings of "national identity" for a "Bosnian" nation.

We demonstrated earlier that there was no systematic murder of ethnic groups in the 1990s. Neither Serbia, nor Croatia, nor the Bosnian Serbs, nor the Bosnian Croats, nor the Bosnian Muslims, nor the Kosovo Albanians - none of them were capable or attempted systematic murder on a grandscale of someone else. Atrocities, yes. Genocide, no.

You also claim that Serbia attacked all ethnicities living in her. That is a falsehood. This is the 2002 map of Serbia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Census_2002_Serbia,_ethnic_map_(by_municipalities) .png/250px-Census_2002_Serbia,_ethnic_map_(by_municipalities) .png

As you can see, there are Bosnian Muslims (although I dispute that term, especially when it comes to native Serbian Muslims who have nothing to do with Bosnia), Bulgarians, and Albanians in the south, Romanians/Vlachs in the east, and Hungarians, Romanians, Slovaks, Croats, and many other smaller groups in the north. By and large, incidences of intimidation and two rare incidences of violence (against Muslims in Severin and Strpce, perpetrated by Bosnian Serb warlords trying to start a conflict in Serbia), there were no expulsions of these groups. As you know, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Albanians, Croats, and Muslims all have had a difficult history with Serbs. These groups were not expelled/killed anywhere in Serbia, except for the territory of Kosovo where the KLA was waging a conflict. So this really punctures a hole in your theory of a campaign for an ethnically pure Serbia. Nothing of the sort whatsoever. Serbs get along fine with other ethnic groups in principle. They don't get along when they fear for their lives from said groups (Tudjman's Croats and Alija's Muslims) or said group tries to fracture their country (Kosovo Albanians).

Finally, regarding putting a stop to it all, Germany and the rest could have done that by not encouraging Slovenia and Croatia to secede so recklessly, but alas, they did. And the rest is history.

KoOlMaNsEaN
03-27-2009, 07:37 AM
Milosevic was commiting ethnical genocide to the Bosnian,Albanian Muslims. NATO had to stop it somehow.
But NATO's senseless bombings just confuse me. What are you doing targeting neighbourhoods,chinese embassy.
Milosevic had to be stopped and he was.

JolánGagó
03-27-2009, 07:53 AM
First, Serbia didn't stop Slovenia from leaving.

Of course didn't stop it, unsuccessfully tried to.

The rest, well I read a bit in diagonal and there are so many factually incorrect statements and plain stupid "analysis" that I just think it'd be utterly useless trying to engage in a discussion with you about this matter. Afterall, you're the guy utterly convinced, by divine inspiration, that you don't need any previous to marriage sexual experience to succeed in that endeavour. So be it.

As someone just said, Miloseviç had to be stopped and he was, albeit very very late. NATO bombings should have happened a few years earlier.

Machiavelli
03-27-2009, 08:41 AM
The guy speaks about croatians taking over Dalmatia and Istria some hundred of years ago, and forgets how the serbs were politically moved into croatian territory in the 20th century, to ensure the boarder, i can admitt that we had some bad moves, of course killing of innocent serbs happened during the war, but nowhere near (not even 10%) what the serbs under the JNA army did to us, no croat stepped on serbian soil, you keep forgetting that, we had the right to claim independency, but the serbs in Croatia and Bosnia helped by Milosevic could not accept that, if there had been any comn sense by the serbs this could have been solved without a war, but they saw there chance for the ''Great and Big Serbia'', tooooo bad they never fulfilled their dreams... Just keep in mind we never wanted your territory, just the one that belongs to us....

I personally have nothing againts Serbs, i have been to Belgrade sveral times in the last few years, i have met and become friends with nice people, and i had many tourists in my hometown Makarska that came from Serbia; but the majority of serbs voted and kept Milosevic for so many years, why i will never get this...

zeleni
03-27-2009, 09:29 AM
:awww: this hurts :sad:

Really?:speakles:

Well, my merciful intervention was inevitable and it was for your own prosperity.:shrug: I hope you have learnt your lesson. My noble intentions are indisputable and you should be thankful to me for that post.:shrug:

*NATO mode off*

Literature for you are Marquis de Sade works. It may help if you read it carefuly.;)

zeleni
03-27-2009, 09:39 AM
Glad to see Aloimeh again. I admire his will to educate clueless gay mugfart JolánGagó and his arrogant friend g.j. although I am not confident about effect of his help. Aloimeh is a true christian.

EKSTREMISTA
03-27-2009, 11:02 AM
...Simply, in your comments, there is lack of intellectual analysis...

...Are you so naive or you just love to pose like arrogant "intellectuals" with lack of compassion and lack of knowledge?


Glad to see Aloimeh again. I admire his will to educate clueless gay mugfart JolánGagó and his arrogant friend g.j. although I am not confident about effect of his help. Aloimeh is a true christian.



Enough said about them and their stupid comments.

And this thread is dedicated to the victims of NATO agression,not to croatian,slovenian and muslim illegal secession from Yugoslavia or so-called massacre in Srebrenica, so if they want to talk about that,and to show their lack of arguments like they did on this subject,they should open their own topic.

habibko
03-27-2009, 12:05 PM
this thread is serious ACC material :worship:

Bascule
03-27-2009, 01:56 PM
Of course didn't stop it, unsuccessfully tried to.

The rest, well I read a bit in diagonal and there are so many factually incorrect statements and plain stupid "analysis" that I just think it'd be utterly useless trying to engage in a discussion with you about this matter. Afterall, you're the guy utterly convinced, by divine inspiration, that you don't need any previous to marriage sexual experience to succeed in that endeavour. So be it.

As someone just said, Miloseviç had to be stopped and he was, albeit very very late. NATO bombings should have happened a few years earlier.

Cursing and offending people on this way is very low and shows nothing but lack of arguments from your side.

You still stick to the dangerous way of thinking about resolving conflicts among different ethnic or religious groups and with the guys like you this planet has a very bright future.:worship: But, if your own ass had been on the plate or your own country/family you wouldn't have been so "brave", I suppose.;)

So, if those statements were "incorrect" and those analysis "stupid", where are your arguments? Oh, wait...the FOX news didn't say anything about it...and don't let the added education and informing to delay you from the cosy chats on MTF or instant-intellectual posing.:rolleyes:

malisha
03-27-2009, 02:30 PM
Aloimeh knows shit about history.So many invalid statements and wrong arguments.
took some time before i read all that crap.
Agree with Gago...bombig sholud have been much earlyer

and yes :worship: to innocent victims

malisha
03-27-2009, 02:35 PM
1.Dalmatia and Slavonia (not to mention Istria) are recent Croatian acquisitions.
2. As for Bosnia, the case is even worse. Bosnia never had a national identity.


1.false
2.false

q.j.
03-27-2009, 02:55 PM
my God malisha
don't ya know ??
what bible hugger is writing is nothing more than an OFFICIAL version of history and revisionism you will encounter in the newest history books our young ones have to learn from. These facts are nothing more than another sad way for those who committed all those atrocities to justify themselves, and a bait for the numerous sheep who cannot come to terms with all that was done in their name, and who only show the will to hide behind others wrongdoings, of our neighbors, of the western world, safely tucked in the victim roll they so blindly embrace.

They tarnish the names of all the victims, especially those of NATO's bombing by using them to yet again, push their own version of truth and their agenda, the very agenda that had led the entire world to act against us, without any repercussion or reflection, simply because we showed not no sign or will to confront our own crimes.

JolánGagó
03-27-2009, 03:10 PM
my God malisha
don't ya know ??
what bible hugger is writing is nothing more than an OFFICIAL version of history and revisionism you will encounter in the newest history books our young ones have to learn from

So that is what they teach at schools in Serbia now? :eek: nice way to prepare for the next round :o

q.j.
03-27-2009, 03:22 PM
So that is what they teach at schools in Serbia now? :eek: nice way to prepare for the next round :o

Some of it, yes. Most of this things you will hear amongst mainstream intellectuals, because this kind of revisions are just that, still a very big part of how the recent history is interpreted, always with one any one goal alone, erase every little bit of blame we had from our part.

And those who tell a different story, very quickly get dismissed by being called, western worshipers, foreign mercenaries :lick:,quislings, what not ,and it is because of the clowns that i primarily described above, that the actual criticism that can be addressed towards NATO and some political and military actions from our neighbors that were equivalent in it's :retard:ism as ours, just doesn't seem as valid or as convincing, simply because they are used in hide our own shit behind their's agenda.

EKSTREMISTA
03-27-2009, 04:42 PM
http://triton.imageshack.us/Himg148/scaled.php?server=148&filename=2867599983ca06d26e63.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480

Bascule
03-27-2009, 08:06 PM
Oh...nice little croatian company:wavey:...what else we could expect from our beloved brothers?:) Since you cleaned your house from the serbs and ruined what left after them...soon you will learn your children they never actually existed there...oh...you already learn them the same.

As far as Aloimeh, he is an american who went to the american schools. And you are just jealous: he's so smarter than you.:p.

Bascule
03-27-2009, 08:17 PM
.Agree with Gago...bombig sholud have been much earlyer

and yes :worship: to innocent victims

What a cynic!:hug: Mali, previse gresaka pravis.

malisha
03-27-2009, 10:04 PM
there was no cynicism in my post
i sincerely feel sorry for all innocent civilians
Serbs are part of a Croatian Government and they are very satisfied
share your pathetic paranoia elsewhere

Bascule
03-27-2009, 10:17 PM
there was no cynicism in my post
i sincerely feel sorry for all innocent civilians
Serbs are part of a Croatian Government and they are very satisfied
share your pathetic paranoia elsewhere

It's cynical when you root for bombing and then feel sorry for the same victims.

Me paranoid? What for?:confused: I am the only one who left alive from a very large family who was killed and then expelled from a place in todays Croatia. Why should I be paranoid?:confused: I'm waiting for more than 10 years on croats to give back the condo they stole from us, as all the property from the banished serbs they "nationalized" (just to make sure serbs have no where to come back ;))and that is one of the main reasons why Croatia can't be a part of Europe. Of course serbs are very happy there.:D We are so happy!:D: And thankful!:worship:

Why elsewhere? I started this thread.

malisha
03-27-2009, 10:24 PM
as all the property from the banished serbs they "nationalized" (just to make sure serbs have no where to come back ;))

false
Many Serbs went back as their houses were re-constructed....you can easily check this
p.s.
i am sorry about your loss aswell

Bascule
03-27-2009, 10:50 PM
false
Many Serbs went back as their houses were re-constructed....you can easily check this
p.s.
i am sorry about your loss aswell

Only some of the very old people (and I know a lot of them) came back to their old or reconstructed houses just to die where they were born, but NO ONE of the younger people. Flats/condos were not given back and my 80 year old granny is sitting there paying the rent and waiting for her condo for 9 years. And she is an invalid without a leg which she lost as a girl while her family was murdered. She lived in that condo for 20 years and earned it with the hard work in a factory (and she worked as an invalid). It's a shame, isn't it? I'm sick of telling my private stuffs, but am sick of the ignorant people on this forum too.
Thanks for kind words at the end anyway. I wasn't there for almost 20 years:sad:, but I hope I could take my kids there one day and show them the land of my forefathers where I spent many beautiful days of my childhood.
How pathetic, eh?:rolleyes:

alfonsojose
03-28-2009, 12:27 AM
Glad to see Aloimeh again. I admire his will to educate clueless gay mugfart JolánGagó and his arrogant friend g.j. although I am not confident about effect of his help. Aloimeh is a true christian.

:rolleyes:

Bascule
03-28-2009, 12:58 AM
You can roll your eyes:p, guys, but Aloimeh is the doctor of history for all of you, not only for the Balcan region, but whatever, you name it.
What knowledge any of you truly showed here, what gives you right to spit on this guy?
Where are your arguments to confront him?

SloKid
03-28-2009, 12:45 PM
false
Many Serbs went back as their houses were re-constructed....you can easily check this
p.s.
i am sorry about your loss aswell
That is partly false. Yes, some had houses re-constructed, but it was often with foreign help, that is from nations other than Croatia, other option is that they had some small houses built for them, nothing like what they had before.

Some don't have anywhere to return, as some Serbian villages have been totally demolished and there's no sign of them ever existing.

And as bascule said, it's mainly old people coming back, some lucky enough to move into their old properties, that weren't damaged and "only" had everything from the inside stolen and taken away

EKSTREMISTA
03-30-2009, 09:32 AM
NATO leaflets from 1999.

From psywar.org

A brief word of introduction about the production of PSYOP in Kosovo and Serbia. According to documents released by the United States Army, 104.5 million aerial leaflets were dropped over Kosovo during the 78-day air campaign of Operation Allied Force. There were 34 distinct types prepared and disseminated. The leaflets contain 4-part codes. The code relates to target audience, theme, action desired, and number of a leaflet in a series.

There are minor differences in the size, paper and ink. Half the leaflets were produced at Ft. Bragg on digital Heidelberg printers; half were prepared in Germany on the 3750 series Risograph or the Mobile Print System (MPS). The sizes vary according to printing machine, local paper availability, and in some cases the artistic layout of the leaflet designers. In addition, there are minor variations of type size, font and color.

Most of the leaflets are in black and white, though many have words or paragraphs highlighted in color. We know the total number of leaflets dropped and even the individual numbers. The problem is that the latter were published using code names like "Think again" and "Questionnaire." In those cases that we can identify the leaflet I have listed the number dropped. In other cases it is impossible to determine what the code name of a specific piece is.

NATO aircraft dropped 2.3 million leaflets in the Serbo-Croatian language over Yugoslavia on the weekend of April 3 and 4. These leaflets told the people why they were being bombed, and how to stop it. :eek:
The majority of the drops were over the northern area of Yugoslavia where there was little knowledge of the atrocities occurring in Kosovo.

NATO reported a second leaflet drop of 2.5 million leaflets overnight on 10 and 11 April. Aircraft made the drop during the Orthodox Easter weekend. The leaflets explained that NATO would stop bombing if Yugoslavia withdrew its forces from Kosovo, allowed refugees to return home, and accepted an international peace force in the province of Kosovo.




http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/1999nc0101.jpg

http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/1999nc0102.jpg
The text on this leaflet says:

In March 1998, the United Nations called for a diplomatic solution to the conflict in Kosovo. Since then, the international community has made every effort to find a peaceful compromise. On 18 March 1999 the Kosovar Albanians agreed to a plan that would disarm the KLA and keep an autonomous Kosovo as a legal part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. However, your political leadership not only spurned this opportunity, but also stepped up its military campaign of repression and violence against the entire Kosovar Albanian population. The Interim Political Agreement – the road to peace.

Text on the other side of the leaflet states:

As a direct result of your government's actions, NATO has conducted air-strikes against military targets. NATO has no quarrel with the Serb people, or their right to national Sovereignty. NATO and the international community still desire a peaceful solution for Kosovo.

http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/199904-B-02-L001A01.jpg
http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/199904-B-02-L001A02.jpg

Some of the text reads:

For the last week Serb armies and police, under direct orders of Slobodan Milosevic, have emptied the villages and towns of Kosovo and burned or destroyed thousands of houses. Heads of families have been pulled from the arms of their wives and children and shot. Thousands of innocent and unarmed people are feared dead. Hundreds of thousands of refugees are fleeing Milosevic's pogrom. Do not allow misguided patriotism to blind you to his atrocities. NATO defends the defenseless.

http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/199904-B-02-L00201.jpg
http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/199904-B-02-L00202.jpg

The text beneath the photo of Milosevic reads:

For years, Slobodan Milosevic has gambled with the future of the Serb people. His policies have lost Krajina, Western Slavonia, Baranja, and Sarajevo. Now he gambles again with his pogrom in Kosovo. He is wagering Serbia's sacred places, her place in the world, and the lives of his own people. Are these truly his to lose?

The other side of the leaflet shows a burning building. Text next to the burning building is:

Is it really his to gamble?

http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/199903-Q-09-L004B01.jpg

The Coalition dropped this leaflet about 15 April. The leaflet says in Serbo-Croat, "Don't wait for me" on the front beneath the helicopter. Text on the back reads:

Attention VJ (Yugoslav Army) Forces! You can hide, but NATO forces still see you. Remain in Kosovo and face certain death; or leave your unit and equipment, and get out of Kosovo now. If you choose to stay, NATO forces will relentlessly attack you, with many different weapon systems, from many different nations, from the land, from the sea, from the sky. Stop following Milosevic's orders to commit genocide and other atrocities against civilians in Kosovo. You are responsible for your own actions, and ultimately will be held accountable. The choice is yours.

http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/1999SFORUS00101.jpg

The text is:

SFOR

Bringing about cooperation and providing peace for all.

http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/199903-Q-02-L00302.jpg
Text on the back reads:

Attention Serbian Armed Forces. You are a NATO target. Halt your current operations and return to your garrisons immediately. If you fail to follow these instructions, NATO will continue to attack your unit. Save your lives. Flee while you can.

http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/199904-E-03-L00101.jpg

A seventh leaflet gives the frequencies of five radio and a television channel that the people could tune in to receive NATO radio and television broadcasts. The leaflet has the title "We want to talk to you." The radio stations listed are FM 92.5, FM 102.2, FM106.4 and AM 1003. Television channel 21 is listed, but I understand that only fuzzy pictures and weak audio could be heard over this channel. The text on the front of the leaflet is:

Mornings in Belgrade. Interviews with world leaders. News: international and regional. Messages to the Serb people. NATO policy statement. NATO allied voice. Radio and television station.

The back of the leaflet is all tex:

FM 92.5, FM 106.4, FM 102.2, AM 1003, TV Channel 21. We want to talk to you.

http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/199904-B-02-L00401.jpg
A ninth leaflet shows a photograph of Slobodan Milosevic with an arrow pointing backwards. The text above the president's name read

No gasoline, no electricity, no trade, no freedom, no future.

This leaflet was dropped in late April as a warning of the coming bombing of crucial services like electricity and water. On 3 May, NATO attacked the hydroelectric power station west of Belgrade and darkened much of Serbia. The weapon used was a bomb containing thin graphite wires and particles that short-circuit the power lines, but do not destroy the generators. There were continued attacks on oil and gasoline stocks, and talk of a NATO boycott.

How long will you suffer for Milosevic? As long as Milosevic is going to continue his program of destruction, ****, and murder in Kosovo, Serbia will drift deeper into international isolation. Don't let Milosevic hold you hostage to his atrocities.

http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/199903-K-06-L00101.jpghttp://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/199903-K-06-L00102.jpg
On 29 May, two additional leaflets were mentioned in the press. Pentagon officials announced that NATO was trying to exploit friction between Yugoslav Army troops and the Interior Ministry Police by exacerbating the situation. NATO is dropping leaflets that read:

Attention VJ Troops! While you endure NATO bombing in the field, low of fuel and supplies, unpaid and past your service obligation, the MUP return home to count the profits from their confiscated "booty." They draw regular pay, use your equipment at your expense, and investigate you for not following their orders. meanwhile, you have been drafted and forced from your families to wage a war which you know is dishonorable and wrong. The only thing you share is blame for the MUPs atrocities.

The red text on the back of the leaflet is:

Your blood, their rewards.

http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/199903-NN-17-L00201.jpg
The text is:

Attention VJ Forces, Leave Kosovo, NATO is now using B-52 bombers to drop MK-82 225-kilogram heavy bombs on the Yugoslav Army units in Kosovo. Every B-52 bomber can carry more than 50 of these bombs. These planes will keep coming back for you until they expel your unit from Kosovo and prevent you from committing atrocities. If you want to survive and see your family again, abandon your unit and weapon and leave Kosovo immediately! Thousands of bombs…and the will, and the power, and the support of the entire world to relentlessly drop them on your unit.

The back of the leaflet shows a B-52 dropping bombs.

http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/BosniaBridge.jpg

Serbia is at a crossroads. NATO told the Serbian people that their actions were causing them to be outcasts in all of Europe. An example is this leaflet showing a destroyed bridge and two arrows going in opposite directions over the European Union flag, a blue flag with gold stars. The bridge at the left is one of the destroyed bridges over the Danube. Serbs view themselves as European, while Europeans view them as eastern Slavs. NATO tried to appeal to their desire to be part of western Europe. No official translation is available but one of the people that worked on this leaflet sent the text:

Which way do you choose? Urge your leaders to reach a peaceful settlement and stop the destruction. The conflict with NATO will not last forever, although when it ends is up to you. Each day that goes by brings Serbia further unwanted destruction and increased isolation because of Milosevic's pogrom of destruction in Kosovo-Metohija. Now is the time to start thinking about the future. How will Serbia rebuild? Will any other country even want to help, or will you have to rebuild all by yourself? Where do you envision yourself and your country in a year, or in five years? What kind of burden and future will this leave for your children? Call on your leadership to stop its atrocities in Kosovo-Metohija and take positive steps to resolve the crisis now. The choice is yours... Do something about it!

http://www.psywar.org/psywar/images/thumbnails/199904-B-02-L00901.jpg
Overwhelming size of the force aligned against Serbia. A good example of this theme is the "flag" leaflet. During the Korean War, leaflet 2506 depicted 54 flags of the nations aligned against the Democratic Republic of (North) Korea. During the Vietnam war, the allies printed a leaflet showing the flags of the seven nations aligned against the Democratic Republic of (North) Vietnam. During Operation Desert Storm, the Coalition dropped leaflets bearing the flags of the 27 nations aligned to drive the forces of Saddam Hussein from Kuwait. The theme of the great number of powers gathered against an enemy has always been a favorite of U.S. PSYOP. The allied forces that took part in the war to drive the forces of Slobodan Milosevic from Kosovo disseminated leaflets showing the flags of the 19 NATO members. Text on the front is, "We are fully committed…The arsenals of Democracy run deep. We can fight this campaign for months and months…if not years. General Henry Shelton, Chairman, US Joint Chiefs of Staff, 30 April 1999." The back is all text, "Slobodan Milosevic has been terribly successful in using his military and paramilitary forces to commit horrendous atrocities, including mass murders, systematic rapes and forced evacuation against unarmed civilians in Kosovo-Metohija, and hiding the fact from his own citizens. What he didn't expect was that he would be even more successful in isolating Serbia from the rest of the world and in unifying NATO and the world community of nations in its resolve to stop Serb atrocities and return the people of Kosovo-Metohija to their homes in safety. He would do well to listen to the words of his own military experts: 'Serbs have fought a war since 1991 while still not having a single ally anywhere. Not even the Russian Federation has declared itself our ally...' Col General Momcilo Perisic, Former VJ Chief of Staff, February 1999." The code number of this leaflet is 04-B-02-L009. NATO aircraft dropped 4.3 million of this leaflet.



There were some negative comments about the leaflet campaign. A number of Serbs indicated that the language was stilted, incorrect, and not as good as the leaflets dropped by the Nazis during WWII. This could be an attempt to attack the technical quality of the leaflet while ignoring the message -- The old "shoot the messenger" ploy.

Philip Taylor didn't think this leaflet was very effective. He says that:

In Kosovo itself, VJ forces received warnings that they were about to be attacked unless they left the area. This technique was copied from Kuwait when leaflets warning of impending attacks by Daisy Cutter bombs and B-52s were successful in clearing the battlefield of enemy forces. In Kosovo, however, the Yugoslav army was a very different proposition to that of Iraq's largely conscripted forces. The Yugoslav army did not flee. Highly skilled in deception and camouflage techniques, it moved around with considerable skill to avoid the destructive power of the NATO air campaign.
In Vojvodina an elderly man was quoted as saying that the Nazi leaflets were good for cigarette rolling paper, but the NATO leaflets "aren't even good for that." :haha:
Many academians believed that the threats and bullying tactics would harden the will of the Serbs.

Perhaps a stronger criticism was made by one of our ex-military officers who spent a lifetime in PSYOP. He said:

Where is the empathy with the masses? Where is the expression of sorrow for the disruption in the lives of the innocent? Where is the expression of regret for the damage to the infrastructure? It sounds as if our total PSYOP effort is about as subtle and psychological as a turd in a punch bowl.

A rather colorful way to express one's disdain of the campaign.

In addition, it seems that the Serbs are using bacteriological threats to frighten their own people and keep them from picking up the leaflets.

The Serbs have been masters of using the Internet for their own purposes. One letter in Soc.culture.Yugoslavia was entitled "NATO is using biological warfare." It went on to state that:

I have already wrote you that NATO airplanes are dropping propaganda papers from time to time on cities all over the country. In addition, those papers are found to be bacteriological positive. There's another thing… workers who were packing these papers in airplanes were wearing special anti-bio-chemical suits… strange?

This attempt to frighten the masses with germ or explosive scares is an old trick used on many occasions in warfare. The last thing a government in power desires is that you pick up and read enemy propaganda.

EKSTREMISTA
04-07-2009, 10:22 AM
Spooky murder in Loudon County, VA
Sat, 04/04/2009 - 8:39pm

Last month, former Army officer William Bennett was found murdered after being out with his wife on an early morning walk in a residential neighborhood in Lansdowne, Virginia. His wife Cynthia was badly injured but survived the March 22nd attack, which is being investigated by local and federal authorities.

In 1999, sources bring to our attention, Bennett was a retired Army lieutenant colonel working at the CIA on contract as a targeter during the 78-day NATO air war on Kosovo. He was one of the people, according to a former U.S. intelligence source, found responsible by the Agency for feeding the target into the system that resulted in the May 7, 1999 NATO bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade.
CIA spokesman George Little told the Loudon Independent that Bennett left his job at the Agency in 2000.
The former U.S. intelligence source says Bennett was fired as a consequence of the CIA investigation into how the Chinese embassy was targeted.

On April 8, 2000, the Los Angeles Times reported that the CIA “has fired one employee and sanctioned six others, including a senior official, in the first official punishment of those involved in the deadly incident. …The State Department informed the Chinese Embassy in Washington on Saturday of the disciplinary actions by the CIA … The CIA declined to identify those who were disciplined for the bombing, which killed three Chinese civilians and wounded 27 others. But a U.S. official said the agent who was fired ‘was the one who selected the target . . . and essentially put the X on the map in the wrong place.’"

According to the former intelligence source, that one person fired by the CIA over the incident was Bennett.

The CIA would not confirm that. “When it comes to Bennett, the CIA has not commented on what his responsibilities were as a contractor, noting only that his service with the Agency ended in 2000,” CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano told Foreign Policy Saturday.

Gimigliano would not comment on whether extra security precautions were being advised for the other CIA officials who were reported as having been sanctioned by the CIA for the incident.

The bombing of the Chinese embassy was immediately declared a terrible mistake by the U.S. government, but it caused severe diplomatic strain on U.S. relations with Beijing. The U.S. government said the bombing of the Chinese embassy was the result in part of targeting based on old maps, that did not note that the Chinese embassy had moved to nearby the targeted location, the headquarters of the Yugoslav Federal Directorate of Supply and Procurement.

“According to administration, defense and intelligence officials, the bombing was caused by a fundamentally flawed process for trying to locate the directorate's headquarters in the New Belgrade section of the Yugoslav capital,” the New York Times reported in 2000. “Armed with only an address, 2 Bulevar Umetnosti, the officer who was dismissed used an unclassified military map to try to pinpoint the building's location, based on a limited knowledge of addresses on a parallel street.”

“On the map, which the National Imagery and Mapping Agency produced in 1997, the building that turned out to be the embassy was not identified,” the Times report continued. “Instead, the map showed the embassy in its former location in central Belgrade. After a location was identified, the target was discussed during at least three meetings among C.I.A.officials, none of whom, evidently, questioned the identification process, the officials said. The target was then turned over to Pentagon officials, who, also without questioning it, put it on a list of targets to bomb in Belgrade.”

“It was the first and last target the C.I.A. selected during the war, Mr. Tenet testified last year,” the Times’ report said.

“China expressed strong dissatisfaction today with CIA disciplinary action taken against several employees in connection with the bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade and once again rejected U.S. conclusions that human error caused the attack,” the Washington Post reported days after the CIA announced the disciplinary action against the seven officers. “Beijing said it was not appeased by Saturday's announcement."

The FBI has reportedly joined the Loudon County Sheriff’s office in investigating Bennett’s murder.

Update: More recently, before retiring, the Washington Post previously reported, Bennett, 57, had done stints as a contract worker, including training troops in Iraq. Cynthia Bennett, who had been hospitalized since the attack, is the director of procurement for the architect of the U.S. Capitol.

Update II: A CIA official said Monday, "At this point, there is absolutely no indication that Mr. Bennett’s murder had anything to do with his service with the army or the CIA. Naturally, you’d want to double-check with law enforcement, as it’s their investigation."

A spokesman for the Loudon County Sheriff's Office told Foreign Policy Monday: "All I can say at this point is, We haven't ruled out any angle. Are there indications leading us in their direction? There is no indication leading us in that direction at this point but we certainly can't rule it out. Where we are in the investigation, we can't rule anything out." He said the LCSO has 13 investigators devoted full time to the case, and is being assisted by other federal agencies, including the FBI's Washington field office. He said last he heard as of Friday, Cynthia Bennett was still hospitalized in critical condition.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_H44IkuSV9qQ/SdTzwVrQ_wI/AAAAAAAAIp0/FGYRarbXzVo/s320/William%2BCynthia%2BBennett.JPG

mtw
04-08-2009, 11:34 AM
USA murder people brutally and destroy directly and indirectly other countries. It is just the only activity of usa: wars, generating of civil wars, robbing of another countries and creating of chaos everywhere.
What did they do to Iraq and Afghanistan? Brutal war crimes, genocide. And it is continued. All US criminals: these bushes, clintons and their military friends responsible for war crimes, crime against humanity must be tried at last. It cannot be in such way that they burn people alive, shoot at innocent people from remotelly - controlled drones and air strikes or shoot at people like shoot at ducks, detain people all over the world, torture them brutelly to force them to fabricated testimonies. Where is God in this all chaos? Maybe some good cataclysms just like earthquake would teach this country some things.

JolánGagó
04-08-2009, 02:52 PM
USA murder people brutally and destroy directly and indirectly other countries. It is just the only activity of usa: wars, generating of civil wars, robbing of another countries and creating of chaos everywhere.
What did they do to Iraq and Afghanistan? Brutal war crimes, genocide. And it is continued. All US criminals: these bushes, clintons and their military friends responsible for war crimes, crime against humanity must be tried at last. It cannot be in such way that they burn people alive, shoot at innocent people from remotelly - controlled drones and air strikes or shoot at people like shoot at ducks, detain people all over the world, torture them brutelly to force them to fabricated testimonies. Where is God in this all chaos? Maybe some good cataclysms just like earthquake would teach this country some things.


Please don't skip your afternoon pill ever again.

EKSTREMISTA
04-24-2009, 11:27 AM
April 23, 2009
Ten Years On, IFJ Says NATO “Must Apologise” over Belgrade Media Killings

The International Federation of Journalists (IFJ) today said that, ten years after NATO forces defied the protests of journalists and human rights groups and bombed a television centre in Belgrade killing 16 media staff, the damage from that unprecedented strike is still being felt.

“When NATO forces decided to strike at the television of station RTS in Belgrade because they found its propaganda offensive they set a terrible precedent,” said Jim Boumelha, IFJ President. “That attack opened the door to a decade of attacks on media in conflict zones and has made journalism more dangerous than ever.”

Boumelha says that NATO should admit its mistake on April 23rd 1999 when it targeted the Serbian state broadcaster in its struggle with the regime of Slobodan Milosevic. “The lives lost are gone forever, but an apology from NATO to the families and colleagues of those who died is long overdue,” he said.

Only days before the attack, the IFJ had received an assurance from NATO officials that it would not attack media during the conflict over the future of Kosovo. Such an attack is in contravention of international law, warned the IFJ and other press freedom advocates, even if the media concerned are guilty of propaganda. Attacks are only permitted on media when they are actively engaged in the strategic process of war.

But the NATO strike went ahead. Those who died were forced to stay at their posts despite warnings of the attack, raising claims that they had been deliberately placed in danger by the RTS bosses. Following the attack , other assaults on media installations - particularly by the Israeli military which attacked media in Lebanon in 2006 and in the Gaza Strip earlier this year - have been justified by NATO’s action.

The IFJ pledged at this anniversary to support journalists in Serbia in their efforts to seek justice for their colleagues who died during the attack and to overcome the legacy of divisive politics which for so long has undermined the profession.

For further information contact IFJ on +32 2 235 2207

The IFJ represents over 600,000 journalists in 123 countries worldwide

April 23, 2009 Posted by almasakinnewsagency | Belgrade, International Federation of Journalists (IFJ), Journalism, Law, Media, Murder, NATO, Press, RTS Television, Serbia, War Crimes | | No Comments | Edit

----------------------
Al-Masakin News Agency

http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/img/b7/l34.jpg
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/img/b7/l36.jpg
Rubble where the body of a killed RTS employee was found
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/img/b7/l35.jpg
Close-up of demolished RTS office building seen from the backyard
where one of the bodies (covered with green cloth) was found
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/img/b7/l38.jpg
Woman's body found in make-up room
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/img/b7/l40.jpg
Human remains (a foot) in the rubble of RTS office building


LIST OF EMPLOYEES OF THE RADIO AND TELEVISION OF SERBIA WHO DIED IN NATO AGGRESSION AGAINST THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF YUGOSLAVIA

1. Ksenija Banković, born in 1971, Video Mix
2. Jelica Munitlak, born in 1971, Make-Up Artist
3. Milovan Janković, born in 1940, Technician
4. Dragan Tasić, born in 1968, Technician
5. Tomislav Mitrović, born in 1938, Programme Director
6. Ivan Stukalo, born in 1965, Foreign Programming
7. Slaviša Stevanović, born in 1967, Foreign Programming
8. Aleksandar Deletić, born in 1968, Camera
9. Darko Stoimenovski, born in 1973, Technician, International Programming
10. Nebojša Stojanović, born in 1972, Technician
11. Slobodan Jontić, born in 1945, Eqipment
12. Dejan Marković, born in 1959, Security
13. Milan Joksimović, born in 1952, Security
14. Branislav Jovanović, born in 1949, Programme Operator

THE FOLLOWING EMPLOYEES WHO DIED IN THE NATO ATTACK
ON THE RADIO AND TELEVISION OF SERBIA HAVE NOT BEEN RECOVERED YET:

15. Siniša Medić, born in 1966, Programme Design
16. Dragorad Dragojević, born in 1972, Security


LIST OF INJURED EMPLOYEES OF THE RADIO AND TELEVISION OF SERBIA ADMITTED TO THE EMERGENCY CLINICAL HOSPITAL

SERIOUSLY INJURED

1. Predrag Djuričić, born 29 May 1974, Senior Technician
2. Aleksandar Stepanović, born 17 September 1970, Unit Engineer
3. Bojan Mijatović, born 31 May 1975, Janitor

LIGHTLY INJURED

1. Nebojša Vasić, born 16 May 1975, Senior Technician
2. Slavica Miljević, born 17 January 1957, Sound Engineer
3. Marija Č. Mitrović, born 27 November 1969, Programme Editor
4. Dragan Šuković, born 11 November 1966, Electronic Graphics Illustrator
5. Branko Matijašević, born 18 August 1940, Floor Manager
6. Mihailo Aleksić, born 9 October 1930, Janitor
7. Vojislav Joakimović, born 17 January 1946, Engineer
8. Danka Djordjević, born 18 November 1964, Electronic Effects
9. Dragica Rakić, born 24 September 1947, Assistant Director
10. Biljana Savović born 12 October 1972, Senior Desk Officer
11. Rizah Šabotić, born 10 April 1966, Janitor
12. Aleksandar Tartar, born 6 August 1966, Cut Room
13. Milan Stančević, born 24 August 1976, Technician

EKSTREMISTA
04-24-2009, 03:01 PM
Ten years after NATO forces bombed the Serbian state television and radio (Radio Televisija Srbije - RTS), no one has been brought to justice for this serious violation of international humanitarian law committed by NATO during the air campaign against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY). As reports of ongoing violations by NATO forces persist in Afghanistan, Amnesty International is calling on the alliance and its member states to ensure independent investigations, full accountability and redress for victims and their families.

Sixteen civilians were killed and 16 others injured during the air attack on 23 April 1999 on the headquarters and studios of the RTS in central Belgrade. The raid was part of NATO’s “Operation Allied Force” against the then FRY between March and June 1999, in which approximately 500 civilians were killed and 900 injured. Many of these casualties were caused by indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks and a failure to take necessary precautions to protect civilians.

“The bombing of the headquarters of Serbian state radio and television was a deliberate attack on a civilian object and as such constitutes a war crime,” Sian Jones, Amnesty International’s Balkans expert said.

NATO officials confirmed to Amnesty International in early 2000 that they targeted RTS, because of its propaganda function, in order to undermine the morale of the population and the armed forces.

“Justifying an attack on the grounds of combating propaganda stretches the meaning of ‘effective contribution to military action’ and ‘definite military advantage’ - essential requirements of the legal definition of a military objective - beyond acceptable bounds of interpretation. Even if NATO genuinely believed RTS was a legitimate target, the attack was disproportionate and hence a war crime,” Sian Jones said.

NATO officials also confirmed that no specific warning of this particular attack was given, even though they knew many civilians would be in the RTS building.

Amnesty International believes that the civilian deaths could have been significantly reduced during the conflict if NATO forces had fully adhered to the laws of war.

“Ten years on, no public investigation has ever been conducted by NATO or its member states into these incidents,” Sian Jones said.

Amnesty International recommended as early as 2000 that the victims of violations committed by NATO receive redress. Yet the victims of the RTS bombing and their relatives have never received any redress or reparations, including compensation, despite proceedings in domestic courts in Serbia and further applications to the European Court of Human Rights (Banković and others v Belgium and others and Markovic v Italy), which ruled the cases inadmissible.

Many of the problems that undermined compliance with international humanitarian and human rights law in the FRY — such as lack of clarity in the command structure and decision-making processes on target selection, divergent understanding among national contingents of applicable international law — persist in the alliance’s operations in Afghanistan.

“It now appears that NATO has failed to learn from the mistakes of Operation Allied Force. If anything, NATO appears to have taken a step backward in transparency, releasing less information about attacks it carries out in Afghanistan than it did during Operation Allied Force,” Sian Jones said.

“The most powerful military alliance in the world cannot afford but to set the highest standards of protection of civilians according to international humanitarian law,” Sian Jones said. “And it must be held accountable for any violations of that law”.

Background:

In a report released in 2000 “Collateral Damage” or Unlawful Killings? Violations of the Laws of War by NATO during Operation Allied Force, Amnesty International examined in detail a number of attacks in which NATO failed to meet its legal obligations in selecting targets and in choosing means and methods of attack.

From 24 March to 10 June 1999 NATO aircraft flew over 38,000 combat sorties against the FRY. According to the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia approximately 495 civilians were killed and 820 injured as a result of the bombing. No NATO forces were killed in hostile action during the air campaign.

In several other attacks, including the Grdelica railroad bridge on 12 April 1999, the road bridge in Lužane on 1 May 1999, and Varvarin bridge on 30 May 1999, NATO forces failed to suspend operations after it was evident that they had struck civilians. In other cases, including the attacks on displaced civilians in Djakovica on 14 April 1999 and Koriša on 13 May 1999 , they failed to take necessary precautions to minimize civilian casualties.

Amnesty International’s documentation of serious violations of international humanitarian law by NATO forces is based, to a large extent, on NATO’s own accounts of attacks.

Pfloyd
04-24-2009, 03:09 PM
Chomsky speaking the truth about these atrocities.

Shame on NATO and the US

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for the rest of the interview click on any video and follow the order.

JolánGagó
04-24-2009, 03:57 PM
Chomsky is a terrorist supporter and a dictator hugger, his credibility is below zero.

Pfloyd
04-24-2009, 04:07 PM
Chomsky is a terrorist supporter and a dictator hugger, his credibility is below zero.

Not quite, he goes much deeper than those simple accusations.

He condems all dictators, but does not agree that violence warrants more violence and he argues that international law, should be followed, his stuff is way too deep and detailed to make such claims.

Pfloyd
04-24-2009, 04:11 PM
Sure, while Clinton (and NATO) claims he was stopping "genocide", at the same time the US was selling to Turkey 80% of the arms they used to massacre the Kurds in there own land. And Turkey is a member of NATO. This was a much more brutal spree, but that does not get reported in US Media. After all, Turkey is a valuable ally to the US in the region.

Yet when he states that he does not agree with the approach that was taken to these bombings, he is automatically labeled extreme and a "terrorist" supporter, when in fact he is doing quite the opposite, pointing to bigger massacres, violations of international laws and more violence as a result of the NATO actions, which did occur due to mass political instability and wars within these territories. Other, more diplomatic and less violent ways can be taken to stop violence.

The US and Western Media rarely report on there mistakes, and this is the case time after time, war after war.

The "truth" is only revealed years after the atrocities happen, and sometimes not at all.

By the way, this stuff is factual, but don't read Chomsky, he's just a "radical extremist."

JolánGagó
04-24-2009, 05:18 PM
IMO "his stuff" is mainly antiamerican rethorics and terrorism apology, utter bullshit in two words. Here we have a gentleman that in 2002 once said Cuba tiene el mejor sistema de salud del mundo, EE.UU. podría aprender un poco de Cuba. I know the Cuban health system, I've seen it myself.

We will have just to agree to disagree.

buddyholly
04-24-2009, 06:48 PM
I know the Cuban health system, I've seen it myself.



When did you see it? If Chomsky said that in 2002, then he is truly a liar. I would not bother to read another word of his writings, if that is the sort of stuff he makes up.
I was there from 1994-2002 and not only did I see it, I almost died because of the incompetence of Cuban doctors, and those were the country's best. That is something I share with Fidel. They almost killed him too and had to call in doctors from Spain to clean up the mess they made.

Pfloyd
04-24-2009, 06:53 PM
IMO "his stuff" is mainly antiamerican rethorics and terrorism apology, utter bullshit in two words. Here we have a gentleman that in 2002 once said Cuba tiene el mejor sistema de salud del mundo, EE.UU. podría aprender un poco de Cuba. I know the Cuban health system, I've seen it myself.

We will have just to agree to disagree.

This is not to say that he hasn't committed mistakes, he is not perfect. And I sure do not make him a martyr, but the depth of his knowledge and his claims are rarely refuted. it's ironic since both Charlie Rose and Bill Maher have stated that Chomsky is by far and away the most requested speaker. If it's all anti-american lies, why would they want to hear him speak?

I've lived in the Dominican Republic all my life and know quite a few Cubans so I am well aware of there limited health system.

He was probably referring to the Idea of free universal health care, but I can assure you he has been quite critical of Castro as well, his website is full of information, a library really.

And his criticisms arent "anti-american" per se, he critisizes the governments abusive foreign policy, he does claim that "America is the country that grants the most political freedoms".

A great demonstration of his patriotism is his vocal dissent on the war in Vietnam and the War in Iraq, and Reagan's harsh south American policies. He does not want innocent Americans, or world citizens to die for lies, or sinister political causes.

And also, why do countries and issues have to be "pro-American" or "anti-American"? It's not like America IS the perfect example of democracy, although it does have great democratic aspects.

That's like saying if you don't like Dutch drug laws you are "anti-Dutch".

Or if you do not agree with same sex marriage you are "Anti-South African"

But like you say, we'll agree to disagree, but just letting you know calling people "extremists" without looking at the full body of work of that individual is quite risky and can be applied to any person.

:D

buddyholly
04-24-2009, 06:56 PM
I looked at Chomsky a little bit. Maybe he made that statement about Cuban health care based on statistics about child mortality rates and the like, compared to the US. But he is not a stupid man. Surely he realizes that those great statistics are just made up by the Cuban government. They are just part of the big Castro lie.

buddyholly
04-24-2009, 07:01 PM
He does not want innocent Americans, or world citizens to die for lies, or sinister political causes.



Cubans are world citizens. He does not seem to mind that they died in the appaling Cuban hospitals, while Fidel continued to laud the Cuban Health system as a great achievement of his revolution.

Pfloyd
04-24-2009, 07:01 PM
I looked at Chomsky a little bit. Maybe he made that statement about Cuban health care based on statistics aboout child mortality rates and the like, compared to the US. But he is not a stupid man. Surely he realizes that those great statistics are just made up by the Cuban government. They are just part of the big Castro lie.

Once you read the reasoning behind his arguments, he looks less and less extreme.

However, his views of an ideal democracy based on traditional anarchist ideas are a bit radical for me, but this is not to say that such a government wouldn't work.

JolánGagó
04-24-2009, 07:15 PM
Read this and laugh you ass off:

http://www.ucm.es/info/especulo/numero21/chomsky.html

and that's just a bullshit interview with some two blind idolatrers, seriously the guy is either nuts, which i don't believe, or just a fuken SOB. discredit is a huge understatement in his case but oh well, everyone has his public.

i've been to Cuba several times, i even have some relatives living there. last time it was two years ago.

Pfloyd
04-24-2009, 07:19 PM
Read this and laugh you ass off:

http://www.ucm.es/info/especulo/numero21/chomsky.html

and that's just a bullshit interview with some two blind idolatrers, seriously the guy is either nuts, which i don't believe, or just a fuken SOB. discredit is a huge understatement in his case but oh well, everyone has his public.

i've been to Cuba several times, i even have some relatives living there. last time it was two years ago.

Wow, that was extreme cherry picking. He says that Cuba has excellent doctors, that's not a lie, Cuban doctors are quite good, but they lack resources, in part due to the US embargo of Cuba, everything else he says in that article is quite accurate.

You call him an extremist for that one statement? Come on man.

Now read this and see how US policy has messed Cuba up (and then laugh if you choose):

http://www.chomsky.info/books/hegemony02.htm

JolánGagó
04-24-2009, 07:21 PM
He's also an apologist of Iran teocratic regime, he says Iranians are way freer than all its neighbours (what a comparison anyway), he opines that the lack of democracy in the Arab world is US responsability, as every other evil in the world is. That's why he is essentially anti-american, not because he criticizes it.

Im done discussing Chomsky, really it's fine if you follow his teachings pfloyd, I respect that but I don't consider him worthy of 5 minutes of my time. I cherry picked nothing, I googled and that's the first page that i clicked on. Same has happened every time i checked his opinion on something, commedy would be a generous interpretation.

Pfloyd
04-24-2009, 07:24 PM
He's also an apologist of Iran teocratic regime, he says Iranians are way freer than all its neighbours (what a comparison anyway), he opines that the lack of democracy in the Arab world is US responsability, as every other evil in the world is. That's why he is essentially anti-american, not because he criticizes it.

Im done discussing Chomsky, really it's fine if you follow his teachings pfloyd, I respect that but I don't consider him worthy of 5 minutes of my time.

Well, he doesn't use that language per-se, but the US does have considerable influence in the Arab world and the UN.

But I agree, let's leave it at that.

JolánGagó
04-24-2009, 07:27 PM
Now read this and see how US policy has messed Cuba up (and then laugh if you choose):

http://www.chomsky.info/books/hegemony02.htm

Im sorry but i have to laugh out loud at this :haha: :haha:

Cuba has been utterly messed up possibly beyond remedy by Castro, not by the US. That is a hard reality no amount of bullshit could possibly hide. I'd like to be able to say Chomsky is an idiot but alas, he isn't. He's simply a SOB.

Pfloyd
04-24-2009, 07:31 PM
Im sorry but i have to laugh out loud at this :haha: :haha:

Cuba has been utterly messed up possibly beyond remedy by Castro, not by the US. That is a hard reality no amount of bullshit could possibly hide. I'd like to be able to say Chomsky is an idiot but alas, he isn't. He's simply a SOB.

You still are discussing Chomsky, and he is no SOB, there is a reason he is considered the most important intellectual alive unless you think your smarter, and to deny that US policy hasn't messed up Cuba is just plain blind.

But continue with what your beliefs, I won't change yours nor visa-versa, but the name calling is an excess.

JolánGagó
04-24-2009, 07:44 PM
You still are discussing Chomsky, and he is no SOB, there is a reason he is considered the most important intellectual alive unless you think your smarter, and to deny that US policy hasn't messed up Cuba is just plain blind.

But continue with what your beliefs, I won't change yours nor visa-versa, but the name calling is an excess.

SOB isn't more of an excess than calling him the most important intellectual alive. He isn't even a proper intellectual beyond his original field of linguistic. In all the rest he's as much an intellectual as Rush Limbaugh.

Pfloyd
04-24-2009, 08:00 PM
SOB isn't more of an excess than calling him the most important intellectual alive. He isn't even a proper intellectual beyond his original field of linguistic. In all the rest he's as much an intellectual as Rush Limbaugh.

Yeah okay.

Tommy_Vercetti
04-24-2009, 09:08 PM
"most important intellectual alive"

Maybe to leftist academics. But anyone who thinks that communism is a system of government that one should want or defend is a moron. You can speak fifteen languages, have a genius IQ, and graduate summa cum laude, but if you think that Marxism is a realistic form of government for prosperity? You are dumb as dog shit. Some of the stupidest people I ever met have held Ph.D.'s. Formal education and degrees don't mean anything when it comes to philosophy or any field that doesn't not have exact answers and can be taught, like medicine or the law.

Bascule
04-24-2009, 09:28 PM
April 23, 2009
Ten Years On, IFJ Says NATO “Must Apologise” over Belgrade Media Killings

The International Federation of Journalists (IFJ) today said that, ten years after NATO forces defied the protests of journalists and human rights groups and bombed a television centre in Belgrade killing 16 media staff, the damage from that unprecedented strike is still being felt.

“When NATO forces decided to strike at the television of station RTS in Belgrade because they found its propaganda offensive they set a terrible precedent,” said Jim Boumelha, IFJ President. “That attack opened the door to a decade of attacks on media in conflict zones and has made journalism more dangerous than ever.”

Boumelha says that NATO should admit its mistake on April 23rd 1999 when it targeted the Serbian state broadcaster in its struggle with the regime of Slobodan Milosevic. “The lives lost are gone forever, but an apology from NATO to the families and colleagues of those who died is long overdue,” he said.

Only days before the attack, the IFJ had received an assurance from NATO officials that it would not attack media during the conflict over the future of Kosovo. Such an attack is in contravention of international law, warned the IFJ and other press freedom advocates, even if the media concerned are guilty of propaganda. Attacks are only permitted on media when they are actively engaged in the strategic process of war.

But the NATO strike went ahead. Those who died were forced to stay at their posts despite warnings of the attack, raising claims that they had been deliberately placed in danger by the RTS bosses. Following the attack , other assaults on media installations - particularly by the Israeli military which attacked media in Lebanon in 2006 and in the Gaza Strip earlier this year - have been justified by NATO’s action.

The IFJ pledged at this anniversary to support journalists in Serbia in their efforts to seek justice for their colleagues who died during the attack and to overcome the legacy of divisive politics which for so long has undermined the profession.

For further information contact IFJ on +32 2 235 2207

The IFJ represents over 600,000 journalists in 123 countries worldwide

April 23, 2009 Posted by almasakinnewsagency | Belgrade, International Federation of Journalists (IFJ), Journalism, Law, Media, Murder, NATO, Press, RTS Television, Serbia, War Crimes | | No Comments | Edit

----------------------
Al-Masakin News Agency

http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/img/b7/l34.jpg
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/img/b7/l36.jpg
Rubble where the body of a killed RTS employee was found
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/img/b7/l35.jpg
Close-up of demolished RTS office building seen from the backyard
where one of the bodies (covered with green cloth) was found
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/img/b7/l38.jpg
Woman's body found in make-up room
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/wb1/img/b7/l40.jpg
Human remains (a foot) in the rubble of RTS office building


LIST OF EMPLOYEES OF THE RADIO AND TELEVISION OF SERBIA WHO DIED IN NATO AGGRESSION AGAINST THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF YUGOSLAVIA

1. Ksenija Banković, born in 1971, Video Mix
2. Jelica Munitlak, born in 1971, Make-Up Artist
3. Milovan Janković, born in 1940, Technician
4. Dragan Tasić, born in 1968, Technician
5. Tomislav Mitrović, born in 1938, Programme Director
6. Ivan Stukalo, born in 1965, Foreign Programming
7. Slaviša Stevanović, born in 1967, Foreign Programming
8. Aleksandar Deletić, born in 1968, Camera
9. Darko Stoimenovski, born in 1973, Technician, International Programming
10. Nebojša Stojanović, born in 1972, Technician
11. Slobodan Jontić, born in 1945, Eqipment
12. Dejan Marković, born in 1959, Security
13. Milan Joksimović, born in 1952, Security
14. Branislav Jovanović, born in 1949, Programme Operator

THE FOLLOWING EMPLOYEES WHO DIED IN THE NATO ATTACK
ON THE RADIO AND TELEVISION OF SERBIA HAVE NOT BEEN RECOVERED YET:

15. Siniša Medić, born in 1966, Programme Design
16. Dragorad Dragojević, born in 1972, Security


LIST OF INJURED EMPLOYEES OF THE RADIO AND TELEVISION OF SERBIA ADMITTED TO THE EMERGENCY CLINICAL HOSPITAL

SERIOUSLY INJURED

1. Predrag Djuričić, born 29 May 1974, Senior Technician
2. Aleksandar Stepanović, born 17 September 1970, Unit Engineer
3. Bojan Mijatović, born 31 May 1975, Janitor

LIGHTLY INJURED

1. Nebojša Vasić, born 16 May 1975, Senior Technician
2. Slavica Miljević, born 17 January 1957, Sound Engineer
3. Marija Č. Mitrović, born 27 November 1969, Programme Editor
4. Dragan Šuković, born 11 November 1966, Electronic Graphics Illustrator
5. Branko Matijašević, born 18 August 1940, Floor Manager
6. Mihailo Aleksić, born 9 October 1930, Janitor
7. Vojislav Joakimović, born 17 January 1946, Engineer
8. Danka Djordjević, born 18 November 1964, Electronic Effects
9. Dragica Rakić, born 24 September 1947, Assistant Director
10. Biljana Savović born 12 October 1972, Senior Desk Officer
11. Rizah Šabotić, born 10 April 1966, Janitor
12. Aleksandar Tartar, born 6 August 1966, Cut Room
13. Milan Stančević, born 24 August 1976, Technician

B. Jovanovic was my neighbor and his son was my sister's friend. They never found his body. B. Mijatovic was lucky one, he just steped out from the building when the bomb fell. He lived in my building, our parents grew up together. What a shame, lot of young people died. I remember I watched the news, it was 2 in the morning and in a second the picture was gone. I moved to the other channel and then I saw the horrible pictures of the smashed bodies hanging down from the ruins. They never showed them again. The mothers of the victims accused NATO command as well as the director of the TV station for this crime. And, yes, next year he was arrested (and was in jail for this) at the time S. Milosevic was arrested, but NATO criminals stayed untouchable. And this is a residental part in the center of the town.

RIP!

Tommy_Vercetti
04-24-2009, 09:45 PM
I was in high school at the time of the Kosovo nonsense and I was 100% opposed to fighting the Serbs because of the squatters. I thought we basically were saying that the Mexicans had a right to take the Southwest because they moved there and started breeding.

That being said, the very idea that you can't strike media targets is absolute garbage. This is just self-absorbed journalists thinking that they should be able to do whatever they want and not face the dangers that everyone else has. The same as the journalists in Baghdad that think that they are some kind of superior humans because they write stories. Idiots. Everyone should know that targeting hospitals and schools is not done. This was taken advantage of fully by the Iraqis who used them as bases, but not striking at the news networks under some insane idealism that journalists are protected by some divine free speech umbrella? Bullshit.

From the standpoint of a NATO military operation, Branislav Jovanović was part of an enemy propaganda arm. He should have understood the risks. This is just one more example of how useless the biased IFJ is.

buddyholly
04-24-2009, 11:39 PM
Now read this and see how US policy has messed Cuba up (and then laugh if you choose):


No doubt US policy, which is not good, has affected Cuba.
But the messing up is Fidel's fault. It is Fidel that introduced cattle from temperate climates to Cuba in an attempt to have prime Communist beef. The cattle did not like the tropics and so the cattle industry was destroyed. It is Fidel that kept insisting on growing sugar, sugar,sugar even as the world was glutted with sugar. The Cuban countryside is now a wasteland as the sugar industry finally became useless and was not replaced by anything. And of course there is the lack of a fishing industry. Fidel does not want citizens flying around the coast in boats that could hop over to Miami anytime.
Intellectuals like Chomsky never see these obvious facts, maybe because they are too mundane. They would rather think in lofty abstract political terms rather than just see that a dictator ruined a country because nobody could say ''bullshit'' to his idiotic ideas.

Pfloyd
04-24-2009, 11:44 PM
No doubt US policy, which is not good, has affected Cuba.
But the messing up is Fidel's fault. It is Fidel that introduced cattle from temperate climates to Cuba in an attempt to have prime Communist beef. The cattle did not like the tropics and so the cattle industry was destroyed. It is Fidel that kept insisting on growing sugar, sugar,sugar even as the world was glutted with sugar. The Cuban countryside is now a wasteland as the sugar industry finally became useless and was not replaced by anything. And of course there is the lack of a fishing industry. Fidel does not want citizens flying around the coast in boats that could hop over to Miami anytime.
Intellectuals like Chomsky never see these obvious facts, maybe because they are too mundane. They would rather think in lofty abstract political terms rather than just see that a dictator ruined a country because nobody could say ''bullshit'' to his idiotic ideas.

Believe me, I'm not defending Cuba, nor do I think Chomsky is spot on in the issue of Cuba, and Fidel does have a HUGE share to take on the harm Cuba has gone through.

However, we will never know how much better off Cuba would be had the US not installed this ridiculous embargo.

More than praising Castro, Chomsky mentions the blatant violations of international law and consensus the US went (and goes through) with Cuba.

The US simply ignores UN law when it wants, but condemns other countries when THEY violate those very same laws

However, calling Chomsky and idiot for statements that have large chunks of truth in it is a bit much.

«Ivan»
04-24-2009, 11:52 PM
:retard:'s lead by jolan gago and el presidente.

Bascule
04-25-2009, 01:33 AM
I was in high school at the time of the Kosovo nonsense and I was 100% opposed to fighting the Serbs because of the squatters. I thought we basically were saying that the Mexicans had a right to take the Southwest because they moved there and started breeding.

That being said, the very idea that you can't strike media targets is absolute garbage. This is just self-absorbed journalists thinking that they should be able to do whatever they want and not face the dangers that everyone else has. The same as the journalists in Baghdad that think that they are some kind of superior humans because they write stories. Idiots. Everyone should know that targeting hospitals and schools is not done. This was taken advantage of fully by the Iraqis who used them as bases, but not striking at the news networks under some insane idealism that journalists are protected by some divine free speech umbrella? Bullshit.

From the standpoint of a NATO military operation, Branislav Jovanović was part of an enemy propaganda arm. He should have understood the risks. This is just one more example of how useless the biased IFJ is.

If you look up the list, you can see that they were all the technicians, not the journalists. They were just the night shift. The journalists, the director and the rest were at the other places: at the "movie town" where they made the news, or somewhere in the vans outside of the building. Those people were sacrificed: they had to go to work because of the obligation in the war time. That's why the director was arrested later (for sacrificing this people), but NATO also must had the information what was going on there, or to at least inform those people to leave the building, anyway, their targets were not in the building.

madlove
04-25-2009, 02:09 AM
oh nato...

Tommy_Vercetti
04-25-2009, 02:21 AM
No doubt NATO targeted it when they believed it would have the least amount of people. At night. That's what they always do. They're weak. And the station knew that it would be targeted. The very idea that NATO would tell them a specific time is just nonsense. You might as well paint your own planes for the AA guns.

You blow up even a military base and you will likely kill civilians. It was Milosevic's mouthpiece for a long time and it was a legitimate target. The IFJ doesn't give a damn about the people killed. Their concern is that the media is not targeted because of their elitist bullshit. Journalists are the most arrogant people on the planet. You ask any military personnel who have had to deal with them. They think that they are some kind of untouchable society. They write largely biased articles for one side or another. They should be targeted.

Bascule
04-25-2009, 02:45 AM
No doubt NATO targeted it when they believed it would have the least amount of people. At night. That's what they always do. They're weak. And the station knew that it would be targeted. The very idea that NATO would tell them a specific time is just nonsense. You might as well paint your own planes for the AA guns.

You blow up even a military base and you will likely kill civilians. It was Milosevic's mouthpiece for a long time and it was a legitimate target. The IFJ doesn't give a damn about the people killed. Their concern is that the media is not targeted because of their elitist bullshit. Journalists are the most arrogant people on the planet. You ask any military personnel who have had to deal with them. They think that they are some kind of untouchable society. They write largely biased articles for one side or another. They should be targeted.

Yes, they targeted Milosevic's mouthpiece. They ruined one building where was the technical center, but didn't stop RTS at all, everything was the same in the next few days. Then, what was the point of bombing this building? Unless they wanted to terrorize and scare the people killing this workers?


JolanGago on Chomski: expected.
How could Chomsky be the "defender of the terrorists" when he said nothing here (as I could hear) about UCK in that manner? He defended NATO neither. :confused:

Tommy_Vercetti
04-25-2009, 02:57 AM
How could they know that it wouldn't have too much of an effect? You think they just look at and target and say that it's possible that it might not be very effective, so let's not bomb it? That's not the way that it works. The RTS was a government propaganda arm and apologizing for attacking it is ludicrous.

Bascule
04-25-2009, 03:10 AM
l0Z2ZVprLko

Pfloyd
04-25-2009, 03:33 AM
Yes, they targeted Milosevic's mouthpiece. They ruined one building where was the technical center, but didn't stop RTS at all, everything was the same in the next few days. Then, what was the point of bombing this building? Unless they wanted to terrorize and scare the people killing this workers?


JolanGago on Chomski: expected.:rolleyes:

Chomsky rocks :rocker:

Tommy_Vercetti
04-25-2009, 03:39 AM
Using Harold Pinter to try and portray your argument is pretty bad man. He also opposed the Gulf War when Saddam invaded his neighbors and the war in Afghanistan. Not to mention his defending Castro while he calls Bush or Blair a dictator. He simply opposed Western society because he was a tool of the first order. Just some friendly advice. I bought a round when he died. The piece of shit.

Bascule
04-25-2009, 03:40 AM
How they prepared the american people to swallow the tomahawk bombs against serbs - just a part of the american media war before the bombing:
Madeleine Albright said "Serbs are awful." Lawrence Eagleberger said, "Serbs are not too bright." Richard Holbrooke said Serbs are "Murderous assholes," and in his new book says, "Serbs are evil." Senator Biden said Serbs are "Illiterates and degenerates." Congressman Obey said Serbs are "Pigs," and political cartoonists in New York Times drew Serbs as pigs turning over outhouses.
This is not just shocking racial stereotyping, this is hatred based on assigning collective guilt to 10 million serbian people.
Why not to bomb some Illiterate and degenerate savages who are actually at the level of the pigs, right?
:worship: to New York Times for spreading the hatred and racism, without consequential.

Tommy_Vercetti
04-25-2009, 03:47 AM
First off, most of those references were taken out of context. And I despise most of those that you mentioned. You can use examples like that for everyone. People say the same stuff about "Americans" all the time and there is over 300 million. Context.

Bascule
04-25-2009, 03:50 AM
Using Harold Pinter to try and portray your argument is pretty bad man. He also opposed the Gulf War when Saddam invaded his neighbors and the war in Afghanistan. Not to mention a defender of Castro while he calls Bush a dictator. He simply opposes Western society because is a tool of the first order. Just some friendly advice.

Maybe the man simply loves the peace.;)
And mentioning Bush is not a good argument too. When a dictator calls another man the same, I must think about it, right?
Saddam certainly was not a baby, but what exactly happened there?
As far as Gulf War, do we know all the facts yet?
That's what the real intellectual should do, shouldn't they?
Why someone who opposes the Western countries has to bes seen as a tool of the first order?
Thanks for advice, but explain.

Tommy_Vercetti
04-25-2009, 03:52 AM
My apologies. I should not have bothered. I should have payed closer attention to your other posts.

Bascule
04-25-2009, 04:11 AM
First off, most of those references were taken out of context. And I despise most of those that you mentioned. You can use examples like that for everyone. People say the same stuff about "Americans" all the time and there is over 300 million. Context.

This is strong enough and it doesn't need any context. This should effect the conscience of a simple american farmer not to protest about any attack of his government. That's why we need this "tools" sometimes.

At this moment all what you can hear in our media is they are suing a famous serbian writer because he wrote in his diary (they published his diary) during the bombing in 1999 that albanians were the "sediment" (or something similar) of all the european nations.
Not nice at all, but they don't care that he wrote this sentence in his own diary during the war, which we can say also was caused by albanians.

But this, published in NYT by the american authorities was nothing but a media war against the nation they intended to attack. And much more serious. Who sued them for anything? Deja vu.

Bascule
04-25-2009, 04:45 AM
Using Harold Pinter to try and portray your argument is pretty bad man. He also opposed the Gulf War when Saddam invaded his neighbors and the war in Afghanistan. Not to mention his defending Castro while he calls Bush or Blair a dictator. He simply opposed Western society because he was a tool of the first order. Just some friendly advice. I bought a round when he died. The piece of shit.

Wow! Edited. The man who made The French Lieutenant's Woman could not be the piece of shit, certainly. Your film taste and knowledge is disappointing.

JolánGagó
04-25-2009, 05:39 AM
Harold Pinter: commie dictators' hugger and total piece of crap. The likes of him and Chomsky should've been forcefully sent to North Korea or Cuba long ago as ordinary citizen-slaves just to have their feet where their dirty mouths are (were).

buddyholly
04-25-2009, 03:38 PM
The man who made The French Lieutenant's Woman could not be the piece of shit, certainly. Your film taste and knowledge is disappointing.

He did not ''make'' that movie. He adapted the work of John Fowles. But his literary merits do not necessarily make him infallible on political issues.
After all, Sartre also won the Nobel Prize, but made the outrageous statement that the little Argentinian thug, Che Guevara was ''the most complete human being of our times.'' Perhaps one of the most completely ridiculous opinions of our times.

Bascule
04-25-2009, 04:51 PM
Call me a fool, but opposite to you, one of my heroes was Che, I loved to read Sartre's books and I appreciated Chomsky and Pinter. You guys sound like some old republican bigots to me.

Tommy_Vercetti
04-25-2009, 05:02 PM
Call me a fool

You are a fool. Che admitted to trying to provoke a nuclear war that could have destroyed humanity. But even leaving that aside, the only thing he accomplished was to help establish Communist tyranny. To call such a man a hero is a sign of extreme ignorance and/or idiocy.

Bascule
04-25-2009, 05:19 PM
You are a fool. Che admitted to trying to provoke a nuclear war that could have destroyed humanity. But even leaving that aside, the only thing he accomplished was to help establish Communist tyranny. To call such a man a hero is a sign of extreme ignorance and/or idiocy.

I grew up accepting the ideas about social equality, while you grew up in an typical colonial imperialistic state, but I never supported any totalitarian regime. Not everything is bad about the socialistic concept, some of the western countries accepted the same ideas. The man fought for his ideals and died for them, he certainly never intended to "establish the Communist tyranny". But, where you grew up, this way of thinking is not the strange. I don't blame you.

Tommy_Vercetti
04-25-2009, 05:30 PM
Hahaha. He didn't intend it? I often wonder how so many people managed to evolve.

In 1964 Guevara addressed the UN’s General Assembly. When he was questioned about Cuba’s firing squads, he said: “Executions? Certainly we execute. And we will continue executing as long as it is necessary.

“To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail."

"This is a revolution. And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate."

“If the nuclear missiles had remained, we would have fired them against the heart of the US, including New York City."

That being a reference to how hard he worked to try and get Cuban control of nuclear weapons to start a nuclear holocaust.

JolánGagó
04-25-2009, 05:40 PM
Hahaha. He didn't intend it? I often wonder how so many people managed to evolve.

In 1964 Guevara addressed the UN’s General Assembly. When he was questioned about Cuba’s firing squads, he said: “Executions? Certainly we execute. And we will continue executing as long as it is necessary.

“To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail."

"This is a revolution. And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate."

“If the nuclear missiles had remained, we would have fired them against the heart of the US, including New York City."

That being a reference to how hard he worked to try and get Cuban control of nuclear weapons to start a nuclear holocaust.

Well said. One has to be vastly ignorant or supremely stupid to have a fanatic murderer as heroe :rolleyes:

buddyholly
04-25-2009, 06:10 PM
It was Fidel that killed him, anyway. Fidel did not want anyone challenging his popularity. First he sent him to die in the African jungle, but Che gave up on that. Apparently he considered blacks as inferior and incapable of socialist revolution. That may be because he was supposed to work with Kabila, but while Che waited in the jungle, Kabila remained in Paris.
So Fidel then had him go to Bolivia where he was finally killed. Only after his death and out of his way, was Fidel able to create the mythic figure of today.

This is what most Cubans believe anyway. Along with the belief that Cienfuegos was killed by Fidel when the plane that Fidel sent for him never returned to Havana and was never found. Che and Cienfuegos were the other two principal figures of the revolution. And then there was one.......

Bascule
04-27-2009, 12:35 AM
Not everything you've heard what your lovely administration has done was actually the truth. The CIA's demonising process is fascinating, but unvarying. Each demon admires Hitler. Keeps a copy of Mein Kampf beside his bed. Is a poofter -- red silk knickers are found in his closet. He also has mistresses and takes cocaine. This was the case of Noriega when USA attacked Panama in 1989, as many others. But, what lies behind this invasion, as behind any else US army was involved?

Tommy_Vercetti
04-27-2009, 03:28 AM
Those were direct quotes and positions that anyone who knows anything about Che Guevara would already know about. You just prefer to make up whatever you want to believe and pretend that he represents that right? Like an Obama voter. I guess it's just easier to blame the vague "Administration" and make up some story with zero evidence that the CIA is behind everything. Yet make up excuses for hard facts you don't like. This is common European opinion talking. The opinion that tells the Israels to let the Palestinians put a gun to their head and trust them not to pull the trigger.

Bascule
04-27-2009, 01:26 PM
Those were direct quotes and positions that anyone who knows anything about Che Guevara would already know about. You just prefer to make up whatever you want to believe and pretend that he represents that right? Like an Obama voter. I guess it's just easier to blame the vague "Administration" and make up some story with zero evidence that the CIA is behind everything. Yet make up excuses for hard facts you don't like. This is common European opinion talking. The opinion that tells the Israels to let the Palestinians put a gun to their head and trust them not to pull the trigger.

No, I'm just telling you what I clearly remember from 1989, as an example and I was listening to the news, I couldn't believe to my own ears. I am older than you, anyway.
I am not a terrorist hugger if I am opposing to USA foreign policy, we had the terrorist actions here on Kosovo too (albanian terrorism / UCK), but american administration does not always want to follow their attitude about terrorism, if there is no interest for USA. I gave you the facts how they demonised serbian people in american media before the bombing started. When I came on this forum, I heard so many insults, from the american posters particulary. Those words in media were the prejudices, and the offended posters the causes of the dirty media war. Why albanian terrorism wasn't named as terrorism by american administration, why ethnic cleansing of the serbs in Croatia was supported by american planes and why croatians were never bombed or punished on any way because of that? I have no reason to believe to american media. They made you to hate the russians for decades, chineses, cubans, koreanian people, vietnam people, arabs, serbs....and many others. On the other side what happened on september 11 was the tragedy as well as the pure act of the terrorism, but still, what the administration has done? Did they catched all involved terrorists? Did they kill or catch Bin Laden? US Army was destroying people and countries, trying to use this tragic situation for their own interests. How many people died since 2001 thanks to american army and what was the point of it? Why all those lies about Saddam's secret weapon they never found? Also, bombing Serbia they killed more serbs and albanians than they killed each other in the fights before that. What about Kurds in Turkey? America was blind then, and even more, USA has given to Turkey more weapons in that period than ever.
I consider the hard situation for Israel surrounded by so many, let's say - enemies, but what about Palestinians? USA can make another albanian land on the serbian soil, but that was not the case for many other similar, or even more, worse situations around the globe. What happened to my country was a humiliated banchmark...and imagine, the first countries who recognized Kosovo were USA and Afganistan. How cute.

Pfloyd
04-27-2009, 01:35 PM
The CIA and the FBI are SO reliablie:

for the FBI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cointelpro

the CIA and NATO: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladio

But NO, never discuss when these organizations fuck up, they save the country, they are good and blah blah blah.

Sure they (the FBI) are good when dealing with internal issues, but when it comes to international interests (CIA), things become just so much more blurry.

It becomes more a battle of interests than a battle of truth and justice.

Okonsky
04-28-2009, 12:28 AM
So Bascule (as you know I excaped whole mess being a traitor) but I'm wondering why this thread? I mean you accomplished what? And your avy...

Bascule
04-28-2009, 12:40 AM
So Bascule (as you know I excaped whole mess being a traitor) but I'm wondering why this thread? I mean you accomplished what? And your avy...

This thread I started to remind us on the innocent victims, since I've done the same on sept. 11 (no one else did), just not to feel guilty for starting only the first one. I didn't accomplish anything, and it's not even possible, but look in what direction this thread has gone, and it was funny to me to see how our fellow americans think about it. And the avy is a joke because of that.:)

Okonsky
04-28-2009, 12:53 AM
This thread I started to remind us on the innocent victims, since I've done the same on sept. 11 (no one else did), just not to feel guilty for starting only the first one. I didn't accomplish anything, and it's not even possible, but look in what direction this thread has gone, and it was funny to me to see how our fellow americans think about it. And the avy is a joke because of that.:)

Well, any news? You already knew, you had to. Sta zna dete sta je zvecka, isn't it?

Bascule
04-28-2009, 01:03 AM
Well, any news? You already knew, you had to. Sta zna dete sta je zvecka, isn't it?

Pa, pravo da ti kazem, pomalo me to i zabavlja.;)

JolánGagó
04-28-2009, 10:24 AM
This thread I started to remind us on the innocent victims, since I've done the same on sept. 11 (no one else did), just not to feel guilty for starting only the first one. I didn't accomplish anything, and it's not even possible, but look in what direction this thread has gone, and it was funny to me to see how our fellow americans think about it. And the avy is a joke because of that.:)

"our fellow americans" :rolleyes:

you're so absolutely impervious to reality, believing only what you want to believe even in the face of totally opposite a truth... that you'd be laughable at if it weren't so sad.

your avy isn't a joke, *you* are a joke, a very sad joke.

EKSTREMISTA
04-28-2009, 10:56 AM
So Bascule (as you know I excaped whole mess being a traitor) but I'm wondering why this thread? I mean you accomplished what?

Nisam ni očekivao da će ovakvo pitanje postaviti neki stranac.

,,Ne bojim se od vražjega kota, neka ga je kâ na gori lista, no se bojim od zla domaćega."

Bascule
04-28-2009, 12:16 PM
"our fellow americans" :rolleyes:

you're so absolutely impervious to reality, believing only what you want to believe even in the face of totally opposite a truth... that you'd be laughable at if it weren't so sad.

your avy isn't a joke, *you* are a joke, a very sad joke.

And you make me laugh. :kiss:

Aloimeh
04-29-2009, 12:01 AM
"our fellow americans" :rolleyes:

you're so absolutely impervious to reality, believing only what you want to believe even in the face of totally opposite a truth... that you'd be laughable at if it weren't so sad.

your avy isn't a joke, *you* are a joke, a very sad joke.

You are Spanish, no? What's your view of ETA and the Atocha station bombing?

JolánGagó
04-29-2009, 05:13 AM
You are Spanish, no? What's your view of ETA and the Atocha station bombing?

Of each separately or combined?

BTW it wasn't an "Atocha" bombing, it was several sites bombed within a few minutes.

Aloimeh
04-29-2009, 05:40 AM
Of each separately or combined?

BTW it wasn't an "Atocha" bombing, it was several sites bombed within a few minutes.

Separately, of course.

Do you think the Basques deserve their own state? (I know this is unrelated to ETA itself)

JolánGagó
04-30-2009, 10:33 AM
I don't watch CNN on a regular basis, too leftie for me.

Aloimeh, one is a terrorist organization, the other was a terrorist act. I support neither, my view on both is extremely negative.

the graduate
05-02-2009, 11:58 PM
let bygones be bygones

EKSTREMISTA
05-07-2009, 08:34 AM
Almagor Demands War-Crimes Probe of NATO

by Nissan Ratzlav-Katz

(IsraelNN.com)

The Israel terror victim's association, Almagor, is preparing to petition for a war crimes trial of NATO leaders and nations over the bombing of Serbia in the 1990s. As with a similar initiative by MK Aryeh Eldad earlier this year, the Almagor suit is meant as a counterweight to a Spanish court's investigation targeting Israel.

On Monday, a Spanish judge decided to proceed with the investigation of Israel over the 2002 assassination of
leading Hamas terrorist Saleh Shehadeh.
Sixteen other people were also killed in the IDF airstrike.

Earlier this year, the same court had agreed to hear the case for prosecution of former Israeli Air Force Commander Dan Halutz, former Defense Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, and five other senior Israeli officials for war crimes over their decision to assassinate the Hamas leader while he was in a building in Gaza City. Spanish law gives their domestic courts universal jurisdiction for serious crimes, regardless of the location and identity of the alleged victims.

"This case against Israel is based on an ancient hatred of the Jewish people - 'the lamb among 70 wolves'," Almagor Chairman Meir Indor told Israel National News on Tuesday.

In response to the Spanish case, Almagor is currently preparing a petition to the Spanish court system demanding that it also investigate NATO countries and leaders for war crimes during the air campaign against Serbia in the late 1990s. Over 2,000 civilians were killed in the attacks. Almagor is specifically looking into a NATO bombing that destroyed a passenger train on a bridge, killing over 100 people, and airstrikes on Serbian hospitals and two Serbian TV stations.

The suit would force the court to look into wartime actions by several former and current Spanish leaders, as well as those of other NATO member states. Chief among the potential targets of the Almagor suit is European Union (EU) foreign policy chief Javier Solana, who was NATO's Secretary-General during the Serbia bombing campaign.

The suit is a way to open what Indor called a "Pandora's Box", which he hoped would pressure the Spanish court to close both cases. Such a scenario took place in 2001, when Almagor filed suit against Yasser Arafat after a similar case was opened against Ariel Sharon in Belgium. The cases were ultimately dropped by the court.

A Cautionary Tale
Indor told a cautionary tale his investigators heard of a Serbian pilot who bombed a NATO unit during the war against Milosevic's Yugoslavia. The pilot was just recently arrested when he crossed the border for medical treatment abroad. Interpol had a warrant out for him as a result of his wartime military service in the Yugoslav army.

The same situation could easily develop for Israeli pilots and soldiers traveling abroad, the Almagor chairman warned. If any European court, even the most obscure, decides to prosecute Israelis for their IDF service, according to Indor, a trip abroad may end in a year-long imprisonment in a EU holding cell as the courts hash out the case.

While there is a clear Israeli interest in pursuing the Serbian case in Spain, Indor insisted, "we are a human rights group for all intents and purposes, through which Serbian victims can sue NATO." Indor assured Israel National News that Almagor will not drop the case against NATO of its own initiative.

Asked if his organization will pursue the Serbian issue in other courts, Indor replied, "Perhaps in Israel."

Eldad: Bring Spanish Leaders to Justice
The idea of a suit designed to expose Spanish hypocrisy in that government's decision to investigate Israel over the Shehadeh assassination was first floated in February of this year, when Knesset Member Aryeh Eldad (Ichud Leumi/National Union) called for Israel to put former Spanish officials on trial for their role in the NATO bombings. Eldad petitioned Israel's Attorney General Menachem Mazuz to charge the former Spanish Prime Minister, Defense Minister and Army Chief of Staff in Israeli courts for war crimes against the people of Belgrade and other Serbian areas.

"In those bombings," Eldad's petition said, "hundreds, perhaps thousands, of innocent civilians were killed
because NATO pilots dropped their bombs from extremely high altitudes in order not to endanger themselves. They thus caused mass civilian casualties. It is fitting that the State of Israel try the Spanish political and military leaders for war crimes if Spain does not immediately revoke the charges against the Israeli Defense Minister and Chief of Staff."

MK Eldad wrote to the Attorney General that "in the event that Israeli law does not allow charging and trying someone for war crimes not committed within the national jurisdiction, I would appreciate it if you would instruct the State Prosecutor to turn to the International Court in The Hague so that the Spanish leaders will be tried for war crimes by the international court."

Failing to see the hypocrisy inherent in the charges against Israel for its actions while NATO carried out the same, or worse, actions against Serbia, Eldad concluded, "is testimony to hatred for Israel - Israel the people and Israel the state equally - and the State of Israel must fight back against this wave of anti-Semitism."

JolánGagó
05-07-2009, 09:50 AM
Bullshit.

Pfloyd
05-07-2009, 02:31 PM
He is not Spanish,Pfloyd is Spanish.
JolánGagó is just bananaman from some monkey island.

Aloimeh,you and Bascule are wasting your time on him and this necrophile Tommy.
Trying to change their brainwashed minds polluted by CNN propaganda, is useless like teaching George Bush how to use binoculars.


http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/6046/bushbinoculars.jpg

True.

CNN, Fox and MSNBC are all pretty darn bad, though they can at times offer decent information, though rarely.

But to suggest that any of the American news organizations are "liberal" is an absolute joke. You may have "leftist" critics like Olbermann and Maddow criticizing the right, but that does not mean that the organizations are leftist. They both represent the same industry (business) and the only news you get is the news they give you, which is equivalent to the type of information that makes money, not necessarily the truth.

Essentially Democrats and Republicans are not that different. Either that or nearly 50% of the American population just don't see a good reason to vote.

Independent research is best.

EKSTREMISTA
06-09-2009, 12:19 PM
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Thanx to all our friends from all over the world who have attended our gathering to mark Tenth anniversary of NATO bombing of Serbia and Montenegro.
And thanks to all who gave us support during 78 days of bombing.
We will never forget.

Tommy_Vercetti
06-10-2009, 12:16 AM
It's hilarious how outrageously happy the Serbs were about taking down one F-117. And they didn't even hit the plane. They fired numerous AA missiles all night and then one allegedly came into visual range and the pilot ejected in panic and was disciplined for it. The ship didn't have radar warning and the pilot was acting on instinct. They didn't even get the pilot. The only reason they got to keep the plane was because the news reporters flooded to the scene and they were afraid of bombing the civilians. More of the PC bullshit that strangles the military. Serbia didn't kill one allied soldier in the entire war. Not one. That's worse than the Iraqis. The Serbs should have been ashamed of themselves. Not taking into a account the stupidity of the campaign, but from a purely tactical standpoint, Serbia got owned completely.

finishingmove
06-10-2009, 02:38 AM
jolangago = pepe

JolánGagó
06-10-2009, 06:44 AM
finishingmove = Arse

EKSTREMISTA
03-26-2010, 11:31 AM
Tony Blair in citizen's arrest scare as Brussels journalist tries to detain him over 'war crimes'
By Justin Stares


A journalist tried to arrest Tony Blair for 'crimes against peace' as the former prime minister arrived to give a speech at the European Parliament in Brussels.
Mr Blair flinched as his accuser, left-wing writer David Cronin, wearing a press pass and carrying a notepad, put a hand on his wrist and told him: 'This is a citizen's arrest.'
The former leader is then said to have given would-be detainer a 'bewildered and contemptuous' stare before bodyguards pounced.

As Mr Cronin was pushed away on Monday, he shouted 'Mr Blair, you are guilty of war crimes' referring to the Iraq invasion.

http://www.arrestblair.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/tony_blair_iraq_war.jpg

English law allows anyone to try and arrest someone they know has committed a crime when it is not practical for the police to do so.
Although the concept of citizen's arrest is woollier in Belgian law, Mr Cronin said he wanted to to escort the former leader to a nearby police station to be charged with committing a 'war of aggression'.
Mr Cronin, who has written for the Guardian, said: 'It was an attempt to draw attention to Mr Blair's crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan.'
He left the room of his own accord after the incident, although when he returned half an hour later he was refused entry by security.

'My motivation in trying to arrest Blair is entirely based on my contempt for the crimes he has committed and abetted in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Lebanon and Serbia,' Cronin told EUobserver.com.
It is the second time that Mr Blair's bodyguards have had to step in to protect him in six months.
In October of last year the former Prime Minister was touring a West Bank mosque when he was assailed by a young Palestinian who accused him of being a terrorist.
'He is not welcome in the land of Palestine,' the man shouted before he was dragged away by Palestinian security forces.
'You know, he made his protest and that's fair enough,' Mr Blair, 56, told reporters at the time.

Taking no chances: A bodyguard (left) scuffles with the Palestinian man after he shouts 'You are a terrorist' at Tony Blair while on a visit to a West Bank mosque in October 2009

'I think it's important for you guys as well to not always mistake the protest for the general view of the whole population.'
He studied history and development studies at University College Dublin, followed by journalism at Dublin City University.

After writing for a variety of Irish publications, he moved to Brussels in 1995, initially working as a press officer and research assistant in the European Parliament for a Green Party MEP.

He was appointed the European Correspondent for The Sunday Tribune, a leading Irish newspaper, in 1998. He then worked from 2001 till 2006 as Political Correspondent for European Voice, a weekly newspaper owned by The Economist.

Cronin has also written about rock, jazz and world music for The Wall Street Journal Europe and The Bulletin, the main English-language magazine targeting expatriates living in Belgium.

He has written a book on EU -Israeli relations which he says is coming out

buddyholly
03-26-2010, 12:46 PM
The important words there are ''when it is not practical for the police to do so.'' The police can arrest Blair anytime. He is not hiding.

Just another left-wing journalist looking for publicity for himself.

Echoes
03-27-2010, 07:40 PM
Dresden bombing was awful and unnecessary but at least the Germans learnt their lesson.

Either you say Dresden bombing was necessary and Germany have learnt their lesson or you say it was unnecessary and awful and then Germany have no lesson to learn.


I still believe Mr Churchill & co should be posthumously arrested on the charge of War crimes. Not only Dresden. Karlsruhe, Dortmund, Hannover were destroyed. Many civilians were killed under allied bombings in France and Belgium. And I'm not talking about the Mers El Kebir massacre.


By the way, total support for the Serbian people.

EKSTREMISTA
03-28-2010, 02:06 AM
Either you say Dresden bombing was necessary and Germany have learnt their lesson or you say it was unnecessary and awful and then Germany have no lesson to learn.


I still believe Mr Churchill & co should be posthumously arrested on the charge of War crimes. Not only Dresden. Karlsruhe, Dortmund, Hannover were destroyed. Many civilians were killed under allied bombings in France and Belgium. And I'm not talking about the Mers El Kebir massacre.




I totally agree with you,Echoes.Unfortunately,history is written by the victors.
But that doesnt mean that we have to forget and to forgive.

Thanx for your support.



http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6168/f117x.jpg

On 27 March 1999, during the Kosovo War, the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Air Defence Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani,[38] downed an F-117A, callsign "Vega 31", AF serial number 82-0806, with a Yugoslav-improved version of the Soviet Isayev S-125 'Neva' (NATO name SA-3 'Goa') anti-aircraft missile system.[39]
[40] According to NATO Commander Wesley Clark and other NATO generals, Yugoslav air defenses detected F-117s by operating their radars on unusually long wavelengths, making the aircraft visible to radar for brief periods.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RRbP6fpJWAc/RctjayanU3I/AAAAAAAAAAk/YRMVxHqsS_k/s1600/stealth5.jpg

El Legenda
03-28-2010, 05:38 PM
Lol.

R.Federer
03-28-2010, 06:37 PM
I opened this thread because I couldn't tell if it was going to be about "Yeah! Nato bombed them" or "Shame on Nato! Can't believe they would do that".

I learned it's both....

R.Federer
03-28-2010, 06:39 PM
I wonder how Karadzic spent the 10th anniversary.... dreaming in his cell of the good old days probably.

EKSTREMISTA
03-29-2010, 08:21 AM
No,at that time he was meditating.
http://static.stuff.co.nz/1233108507/976/544976.jpg

Karadzic lived as long-haired, new age doctor

Radovan Karadzic, one of the world's most wanted men, lived for years in a Belgrade suburb posing as a doctor of alternative medicine, hiding his famous face behind long hair, a bushy beard and thick glasses.
Pictures given to Reuters by people who knew him as his alter ego show his face, ruddy in his heyday as the leader of Bosnian Serb forces, now sunken and shallow. His eyes are dull behind old-fashioned, tinted frames.

The slightly curved nose is the only obvious similarity.

The trademark salt-and-pepper mane, perfectly coiffed throughout the 1992-95 war, had turned from sleek to frizzy. He wore it in a plaited top-knot, pure white mixed with flashes of black.

Karadzic lived quietly in New Belgrade, a sprawling suburb of massive, anonymous tower blocks that can house dozens of flats. Officials say he used the name Dr Dragan David Dabic, and made a living as a practitioner of alternative medicine.

Last October he showed up at a wellness convention organised by 'Healthy Life' magazine, and introduced himself to the editor as a neuro-psychiatrist who wanted to contribute articles.

That part of his new identity was closest to his old self: Karadzic had studied in Sarajevo and qualified as a psychiatrist specialising in neurosis and depression.

He liked to write, sometimes morbid and surreal poetry, sometimes children's poems.

"He was a kind man, with good manners, quiet and witty," Goran Kojic," the magazine's editor said.

"He said he was a psychiatrist who does energy therapies. I told him we were not able to pay him and could only give him an issue of the magazine for free.

"He was not physically fit, but I would say he was mentally fit."

Kojic said Karadzic did not have a Bosnian accent.

"I asked where he was from and he said he was from the Krajina region. I think he told me he had children. I doubted he had a degree because he didn't specify where he was working. He never showed me his diploma, he said his wife left it in the United States."

As the soft-spoken Dr Dabic, Karadzic held lectures and wrote articles comparing popular meditation techniques with 'Orthodox Meditation' a silent technique practiced by monks in Orthodox monasteries.

He was also interested in healing through the optimal use of 'vital energy', a quasi-mystical, non-physical dimension of the body, similar to the Chinese notion of 'Qi' and the Indian concept of the 'chakra' centres of energy in the body.

"He was very religious," said a woman who works at the magazine and knew him. "He had his hair in a plait in order to be able to receive different energies. He was a very nice man."

Karadzic appears to have lived comfortably within his new identity and to have moved freely. He liked being with people and getting attention.

An anti-cancer society in the northern town of Sombor still has on its website the announcement of an April lecture of Dr Dragan Dabic on "similarities between meditation and orthodox meditation".

In another lecture programme, he described himself as a "researcher in the fields of psychology and bio-energy".

"I cannot believe it was him," Kojic said. "He was walking freely in the centre of the town. We talked a lot about family life. I am very sorry to find out that the man I knew is Radovan Karadzic, and that he was arrested. I feel miserable."

GugaF1
03-29-2010, 11:54 PM
I am curious since the Serbs are so against the Nato Intervention. What would be their solution to the situation ? Just let the bigger majority wipe the other out internally in the country ? And out of curiosity. Are the Serbs forces and military equipment equivilent to the Albanians and the Muslim war lords in any way ? I would like to get your guys perspective on this.

I have little doubt that both sides had their wrongs. But when you have one force clearly superior to the other, similarly to the Israel Palestine deal for example. If the U.N or an outsider or whatever doesn`t intervine, there is a good chance that in the long run, the stronger just dominating the other side.

Or Levy
03-30-2010, 06:27 AM
I'm going to use this thread to ask someone to explain to me the Pilic- Serbia/Croetia DC tie in Split thing. Why isn't he going there? (thought it would be better to ask here than GM).

Aloimeh
03-30-2010, 07:44 AM
I am curious since the Serbs are so against the Nato Intervention. What would be their solution to the situation ? Just let the bigger majority wipe the other out internally in the country ? And out of curiosity. Are the Serbs forces and military equipment equivilent to the Albanians and the Muslim war lords in any way ? I would like to get your guys perspective on this.

I have little doubt that both sides had their wrongs. But when you have one force clearly superior to the other, similarly to the Israel Palestine deal for example. If the U.N or an outsider or whatever doesn`t intervine, there is a good chance that in the long run, the stronger just dominating the other side.

No, just no. The KLA was being trained by Germans and supported by the US. They had modern weaponry. Maybe not the tanks and all that, but they had good weapons. They started an insurgency, they killed police and civilians. They initiated the conflict. Their claim of "apartheid" was BS then, as it has always been. They were allowed to go to schools in Albanian, U of Prishtina was in Albanian, and there were plenty of Albanian language publications. They had access to all Serbian institutions, from social aid to attending school in Belgrade, etc.

Now, what the US should have done was NOT support their insurgency in the first place. Then, they should have made some good faith negotiations for autonomy or something, and not that bogus BS "negotiations" called Rambouillet.

http://www.state.gov/www/regions/eur/ksvo_rambouillet_text.html

Appendix B: Status of Multi-National Military Implementation Force
1. For the purposes of this Appendix, the following expressions shall have the meanings hereunder assigned to them:

a. "NATO" means the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), its subsidiary bodies, its military Headquarters, the NATO-led KFOR, and any elements/units forming any part of KFOR or supporting KFOR, whether or not they are from a NATO member country and whether or not they are under NATO or national command and control, when acting in furtherance of this Agreement.

b. "Authorities in the FRY" means appropriate authorities, whether Federal, Republic, Kosovo or other.

c. "NATO personnel" means the military, civilian, and contractor personnel assigned or attached to or employed by NATO, including the military, civilian, and contractor personnel from non-NATO states participating in the Operation, with the exception of personnel locally hired.

d. "the Operation" means the support, implementation, preparation, and participation by NATO and NATO personnel in furtherance of this Chapter.

e. "Military Headquarters" means any entity, whatever its denomination, consisting of or constituted in part by NATO military personnel established in order to fulfill the Operation.

f. "Authorities" means the appropriate responsible individual, agency, or organization of the Parties.

g. "Contractor personnel" means the technical experts or functional specialists whose services are required by NATO and who are in the territory of the FRY exclusively to serve NATO either in an advisory capacity in technical matters, or for the setting up, operation, or maintenance of equipment, unless they are:

(1) nationals of the FRY; or

(2) persons ordinarily resident in the FRY.

h. "Official use" means any use of goods purchased, or of the services received and intended for the performance of any function as required by the operation of the Headquarters.

i. "Facilities" means all buildings, structures, premises, and land required for conducting the operational, training, and administrative activities by NATO for the Operation as well as for accommodation of NATO personnel.

2. Without prejudice to their privileges and immunities under this Appendix, all NATO personnel shall respect the laws applicable in the FRY, whether Federal, Republic, Kosovo, or other, insofar as compliance with those laws is compatible with the entrusted tasks/mandate and shall refrain from activities not compatible with the nature of the Operation.

3. The Parties recognize the need for expeditious departure and entry procedures for NATO personnel. Such personnel shall be exempt from passport and visa regulations and the registration requirements applicable to aliens. At all entry and exit points to/from the FRY, NATO personnel shall be permitted to enter/exit the FRY on production of a national identification (ID) card. NATO personnel shall carry identification which they may be requested to produce for the authorities in the FRY, but operations, training, and movement shall not be allowed to be impeded or delayed by such requests.

4. NATO military personnel shall normally wear uniforms, and NATO personnel may possess and carry arms if authorized to do so by their orders. The Parties shall accept as valid, without tax or fee, drivers' licenses and permits issued to NATO personnel by their respective national authorities.

5. NATO shall be permitted to display the NATO flag and/or national flags of its constituent national elements/units on any NATO uniform, means of transport, or facility.

6. a. NATO shall be immune from all legal process, whether civil, administrative, or criminal.

b. NATO personnel, under all circumstances and at all times, shall be immune from the Parties' jurisdiction in respect of any civil, administrative, criminal, or disciplinary offenses which may be committed by them in the FRY. The Parties shall assist States participating in the Operation in the exercise of their jurisdiction over their own nationals.

c. Notwithstanding the above, and with the NATO Commander's express agreement in each case, the authorities in the FRY may exceptionally exercise jurisdiction in such matters, but only in respect of Contractor personnel who are not subject to the jurisdiction of their nation of citizenship.

7. NATO personnel shall be immune from any form of arrest, investigation, or detention by the authorities in the FRY. NATO personnel erroneously arrested or detained shall immediately be turned over to NATO authorities.

8. NATO personnel shall enjoy, together with their vehicles, vessels, aircraft, and equipment, free and unrestricted passage and unimpeded access throughout the FRY including associated airspace and territorial waters. This shall include, but not be limited to, the right of bivouac, maneuver, billet, and utilization of any areas or facilities as required for support, training, and operations.

9. NATO shall be exempt from duties, taxes, and other charges and inspections and custom regulations including providing inventories or other routine customs documentation, for personnel, vehicles, vessels, aircraft, equipment, supplies, and provisions entering, exiting, or transiting the territory of the FRY in support of the Operation.

10. The authorities in the FRY shall facilitate, on a priority basis and with all appropriate means, all movement of personnel, vehicles, vessels, aircraft, equipment, or supplies, through or in the airspace, ports, airports, or roads used. No charges may be assessed against NATO for air navigation, landing, or takeoff of aircraft, whether government-owned or chartered. Similarly, no duties, dues, tolls or charges may be assessed against NATO ships, whether government-owned or chartered, for the mere entry and exit of ports. Vehicles, vessels, and aircraft used in support of the Operation shall not be subject to licensing or registration requirements, nor commercial insurance.

11. NATO is granted the use of airports, roads, rails, and ports without payment of fees, duties, dues, tolls, or charges occasioned by mere use. NATO shall not, however, claim exemption from reasonable charges for specific services requested and received, but operations/movement and access shall not be allowed to be impeded pending payment for such services.

12. NATO personnel shall be exempt from taxation by the Parties on the salaries and emoluments received from NATO and on any income received from outside the FRY.

13. NATO personnel and their tangible moveable property imported into, acquired in, or exported from the FRY shall be exempt from all duties, taxes, and other charges and inspections and custom regulations.

14. NATO shall be allowed to import and to export, free of duty, taxes and other charges, such equipment, provisions, and supplies as NATO shall require for the Operation, provided such goods are for the official use of NATO or for sale to NATO personnel. Goods sold shall be solely for the use of NATO personnel and not transferable to unauthorized persons.

15. The Parties recognize that the use of communications channels is necessary for the Operation. NATO shall be allowed to operate its own internal mail services. The Parties shall, upon simple request, grant all telecommunications services, including broadcast services, needed for the Operation, as determined by NATO. This shall include the right to utilize such means and services as required to assure full ability to communicate, and the right to use all of the electro-magnetic spectrum for this purpose, free of cost. In implementing this right, NATO shall make every reasonable effort to coordinate with and take into account the needs and requirements of appropriate authorities in the FRY.

16. The Parties shall provide, free of cost, such public facilities as NATO shall require to prepare for and execute the Operation. The Parties shall assist NATO in obtaining, at the lowest rate, the necessary utilities, such as electricity, water, gas and other resources, as NATO shall require for the Operation.

17. NATO and NATO personnel shall be immune from claims of any sort which arise out of activities in pursuance of the Operation; however, NATO will entertain claims on an ex gratia basis.

18. NATO shall be allowed to contract directly for the acquisition of goods, services, and construction from any source within and outside the FRY. Such contracts, goods, services, and construction shall not be subject to the payment of duties, taxes, or other charges. NATO may also carry out construction works with their own personnel.

19. Commercial undertakings operating in the FRY only in the service of NATO shall be exempt from local laws and regulations with respect to the terms and conditions of their employment and licensing and registration of employees, businesses, and corporations.

20. NATO may hire local personnel who on an individual basis shall remain subject to local laws and regulations with the exception of labor/employment laws. However, local personnel hired by NATO shall:

a. be immune from legal process in respect of words
spoken or written and all acts performed by them in
their official capacity;
b. be immune from national services and/or national
military service obligations;
c. be subject only to employment terms and
conditions established by NATO; and
d. be exempt from taxation on the salaries and
emoluments paid to them by NATO.
21. In carrying out its authorities under this Chapter, NATO is authorized to detain individuals and, as quickly as possible, turn them over to appropriate officials.

22. NATO may, in the conduct of the Operation, have need to make improvements or modifications to certain infrastructure in the FRY, such as roads, bridges, tunnels, buildings, and utility systems. Any such improvements or modifications of a non-temporary nature shall become part of and in the same ownership as that infrastructure. Temporary improvements or modifications may be removed at the discretion of the NATO Commander, and the infrastructure returned to as near its original condition as possible, fair wear and tear excepted.

23. Failing any prior settlement, disputes with the regard to the interpretation or application of this Appendix shall be settled between NATO and the appropriate authorities in the FRY.

24. Supplementary arrangements with any of the Parties may be concluded to facilitate any details connected with the Operation.

25. The provisions of this Appendix shall remain in force until completion of the Operation or as the Parties and NATO otherwise agree.

Chapter 8

Appendix B allows for full access to all the territory of Yugoslavia to NATO, from Subotica in the north to Bor in the east and Kotor in the west to Prizren in the south. Full military occupation of all of Serbia and Montenegro OUTSIDE of Kosovo. No sovereign country could accept such a brazen ultimatum.

When Serbia rejected Appendix B, NATO decided to bomb.

EKSTREMISTA
03-30-2010, 08:58 AM
During a deep-background confidential briefing for journalists at the Rambouillet talks in France, shortly before the air war began, a senior State Department official said that the U.S. government saw a need to bomb Serbia and “deliberately set the bar higher than the Serbs could accept."

http://www.guernicamag.com/features/417/slick_torch_1/


The Kosovo War, Ten Years On
The bombing of then-Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, begun March 24, 1999, was in essence a demonstration of power by which the Atlantic Empire chose to reveal itself to the world. Until then, NATO was considered a defensive alliance; in the words of its first Secretary-General, Lord Ismay, its purpose was to "keep the Russians, out, the Americans in, and the Germans down." During the conflicts in Croatia and Bosnia (1991-1995), the Alliance gradually claimed more and more authority, until it was driving the UN, and not the other way around. But on March 24, 1999, NATO - and Washington - would bypass the UN entirely.

It is said today that the war ("intervention") was fought to protect the innocent ethnic Albanians, who were being "oppressed" by a vicious Serbian regime. But insiders have admitted the purpose of the bombing had little to do with Serbs or the Albanians, and much to do with power politics, especially the U.S. relations with Russia.

As Madeleine Albright once famously asked Colin Powell, "What’s the point of... this superb military... if we can't use it?" That was in 1991, and the outcome of this argument was "Desert Storm": a four-day operation in which the overwhelming and technologically superior forces of the U.S.-led coalition obliterated Iraqi troops in open field. As a result, Americans - and their European allies - came to believe in their military invincibility. However, "Desert Storm" was not the first battle of the future, but the last battle of the past. This was shown by the conflict over Kosovo in 1999, which was conceived as a re-run of "Desert Storm," and ended up being anything but.

Washington's show of force was deliberately and carefully designed. The target was Yugoslavia (Serbia-Montenegro), the only country in the Balkans, perhaps even Europe, without a client regime. President Milosevic may have helped the U.S. impose peace in Croatia and Bosnia (at the expense of some 2 million Serbs), but he insisted on being a free agent. That could not be allowed.

Much of the groundwork had been done already. During the early 1990s, the Serbs had been demonized as aggressors and genocidal murderers, based on propaganda from the conflicts in Croatia and Bosnia. A ***** force was already in place: the "Kosovo Liberation Army," a terrorist organization seeking independence of the Kosovo province (as the first step in pan-Albanian "unification" sought by some since 1878 or so). Though Albanians have sought separation from Serbia since the early 1980s, the KLA represented an escalation of terrorism that Serbia could not ignore. From mid-1997, Serbian police and Yugoslav military tangled with the KLA, mostly to the KLA's detriment.

In October 1998, the U.S. demanded that Belgrade allow OSCE observers into Kosovo, and stop actions against the KLA (the KLA was under no such constraints). Milosevic agreed, hoping to avoid a war with NATO. But the mission was led by William Walker, veteran of black ops in Central America, who helped the KLA stage a "massacre" in January 1999 and prepare the ground for a war. Walker quickly declared the events in Racak an atrocity, which was then used to issue an insulting ultimatum to Serbia: "Let NATO occupy Kosovo and have free access to the rest of Serbia, and after 3 years give the Albanians independence. Or else."

It was meant to be rejected. And so it was. Everything was in place for a short, victorious war.

As usual, the Serbs proved difficult. They did not surrender on the first day. Or the second. Or the seventy-seventh. They shot down NATO missiles and drones in droves, and (at least) two aircraft, one of them the famous "stealth" F-117A. There is even a story of how Serbian pilots, flying 1970s bombers, demolished the base set up for U.S. Apache helicopters in Albania. Whether there is any truth in it or not, the Apaches never flew a single combat mission in Kosovo, and several were said to have been lost to mysterious "accidents" and "mechanical failures." Clever camouflage and ingenious use of decoys also fooled most NATO bombers. Yugoslav military losses were very low, even after 78 days of the war.

The civilians were not so lucky. NATO went after bridges, railroads, buses, hospitals, marketplaces, water and power supply, and industry nodes. Even the Albanians - whom NATO was supposedly protecting - found themselves targeted, as at least two columns of refugees were struck. One of them was moving back from the Albanian border, defying KLA calls for a mass exodus from the province.

The exodus, by the way, came at just the right time for NATO. Its excuse of trying to impose the Rambouillet ultimatum was wearing thin as the war went on, so it was changed to stopping "ethnic cleansing." The media went into overdrive, looking for stories of Serb atrocities that the KLA was all too eager to furnish. Genocide! Secret plans for ethnic cleansing (fabricated)! Mass murders! Hundreds of thousands dead! All were shown to be ephemeral after the war. Only a handful of journalists admitted being duped; the rest went on repeating the fiction about "10,000 Albanian dead."

The longer the war went on, the more "mistakes" resulted in gruesome civilian deaths, the worse things became for NATO. It was now a "test of credibility," a battle not to crush Serbia but to save NATO's own hide. Exasperated, the Alliance bluffed, threatening total war and ground invasion (which was not feasible in the least) unless Belgrade agreed to yield. The terms they offered were actually better than Rambouillet: the UN would guarantee that Kosovo would remain a part of Serbia. It looked good on paper. Moscow urged Belgrade to accept. So Milosevic did.

In June 1999, the Yugoslav Army pulled out of Kosovo in good order. NATO drove in. With it came the KLA. What followed was an orgy of murder, ****, robbery, arson and wanton destruction. Some 200,000 or more Serbs, Roma, Turks, Jews, and even other Albanians who would not support the KLA fled the occupied province. Hundreds of Serbian Orthodox churches, monasteries, chapels and cemeteries were demolished and desecrated. NATO "peacekeepers" stood by and watched.

The terror - dismissed by the cheerleader media as "revenge attacks" - continued for months, then years, reaching a frenzied peak in 2004. So much for "humanitarian" motives of the war.

Eventually, the Empire pushed to violate the armistice, and worked with the provisional Albanian government to create an "independent" Kosovo (February 2008). By that time, they'd already conquered Serbia. Milosevic was deposed in October 2000, by a coalition of opposition parties brought together by U.S. diplomats and spies, funded with "suitcases of cash." The new regime arrested Milosevic - and the rest of the military and civilian leadership - and shipped them off to the Hague Inquisition. Milosevic died there in 2006, under mysterious circumstances. Shortly thereafter, Montenegro seceded, and Yugoslavia was no more. And the Army that successfully survived the bombing? Gutted by the new regime, in the name of "peace and cooperation."

No wonder the Empire continues to believe Kosovo was a triumph. Sure, it didn't go as smoothly as planned, but in the end Serbia was conquered, Albanians had Kosovo, and the UN was once again shoved aside as irrelevant. Except that pummeling Serbia achieved an effect opposite of the one the Empire desired.

The Chinese never forgave the bombing of their Belgrade embassy. In Russia, the war was a turning point; within months, American client Boris Yeltsin was out of power, replaced by Vladimir Putin.

As for the Americans themselves, their leaders learned all the wrong lessons of Kosovo, using the precedent of this evil little war to launch the 2003 invasion of Iraq. The protracted occupation and insurgency have bled the American military and treasury over the past six years, and the troops are still stuck there.

Nor was Kosovo a triumph for NATO; the Alliance was exposed as a paper tiger, as European nations demonstrated complete inability to conduct their own operations, and had to rely on Americans for almost everything.

Just a decade after its supposed moment of triumph (which, appropriately, owed more to media spin than reality) the Empire is failing. Whatever happens to it eventually, the days when it could assert the "right" to bomb anyone, anywhere, for any reason are most likely gone. And the seeds of that destruction were sown in Kosovo. We should remember that.

As for the Serbs and the Albanians, and the fate of Kosovo, Montenegro, and Macedonia... that remains very much an unfinished tale.

Grey Falcon

EKSTREMISTA
04-01-2010, 04:36 PM
I want a piece of that cake at 2.05.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V6OucRf-qE

:aparty:

andy neyer
04-01-2010, 08:38 PM
Either you say Dresden bombing was necessary and Germany have learnt their lesson or you say it was unnecessary and awful and then Germany have no lesson to learn.


I still believe Mr Churchill & co should be posthumously arrested on the charge of War crimes. Not only Dresden. Karlsruhe, Dortmund, Hannover were destroyed. Many civilians were killed under allied bombings in France and Belgium. And I'm not talking about the Mers El Kebir massacre.


By the way, total support for the Serbian people.

Agreed.

I just read about half of this thread and I was frankly surprised by the level of ignorance and bias of many users.

By the way, NATO is a terrorist organization. No doubt about it.

2003
04-02-2010, 01:54 AM
It always amazes me how black and white some peoples thought process is.

The truth is any person or government is capable of atrocity/evil.

During 1930-1945, im sure that Germans/Italians/Japanese were all brought up believing that they were the good guys and the allies were the bad guys..people were brainwashed with propaganda (even in the west too) and off to war at 17 or 18 to fight for a cause..I feel sorry for every person, civilian or militia, who die in any war or ariel bombardment.

Infact I believe there is no such thing as good guys or bad guys in war, there is right and wrong though. The regieme is good or bad yes, however the freedom fighters are just that, they are doing what they have to do or are ordered to do.

And the truth is anyone is capable of evil. Why were the allies never punished for their war crimes?

Bombing of Dresden,
Atomic Bombing of Japan (thankfully Japan surrendered after 2, but don't be nieve, USA had some arsenal of weapons and they were prepared to decimate every major Japanese city if no surrender was forthcomming).
Gulf of tonkin (evidence they staged the event)
Careless and reckless ariel bombings deliberately targeting civilians of Afghanistan, Iraq, Serbia and others.
Orchestrating the 1995 Okalhoma City Bombing and the 9/11 attacks. Too many unanswered questions to convince me they didn't at least have a hand in them or fail to prevent them deliberately.

The sayings "any bloody fool can pull a trigger" and "bombs do not kill people, people kill people" do ring to mind. Any one person or militia is capable of evil acts, I love people who justify the atomic bombing of Japan by saying "if Hitler had the bomb he would have done the same".

Laughable logic, by that logic I can go and shoot George W Bush (or anybody really) in the head and defend myself by saying "If Chavez or Hussein or Bin Laden had the chance they would do the same".

What is appropriate, is to mourn these people who die, inocents, and only thank god we weren't in their shoes. It's easy to tell people how it is from behind the comfort and safety of a computer screen, I wonder how they would feel if they were running around dodging bombs or having to live with no legs for the rest of their life, lets see how diplomatic and un angry they are in their logic then.

Bascule
04-04-2010, 12:01 AM
It always amazes me how black and white some peoples thought process is.

The truth is any person or government is capable of atrocity/evil.

During 1930-1945, im sure that Germans/Italians/Japanese were all brought up believing that they were the good guys and the allies were the bad guys..people were brainwashed with propaganda (even in the west too) and off to war at 17 or 18 to fight for a cause..I feel sorry for every person, civilian or militia, who die in any war or ariel bombardment.

Infact I believe there is no such thing as good guys or bad guys in war, there is right and wrong though. The regieme is good or bad yes, however the freedom fighters are just that, they are doing what they have to do or are ordered to do.

And the truth is anyone is capable of evil. Why were the allies never punished for their war crimes?

Bombing of Dresden,
Atomic Bombing of Japan (thankfully Japan surrendered after 2, but don't be nieve, USA had some arsenal of weapons and they were prepared to decimate every major Japanese city if no surrender was forthcomming).
Gulf of tonkin (evidence they staged the event)
Careless and reckless ariel bombings deliberately targeting civilians of Afghanistan, Iraq, Serbia and others.
Orchestrating the 1995 Okalhoma City Bombing and the 9/11 attacks. Too many unanswered questions to convince me they didn't at least have a hand in them or fail to prevent them deliberately.

The sayings "any bloody fool can pull a trigger" and "bombs do not kill people, people kill people" do ring to mind. Any one person or militia is capable of evil acts, I love people who justify the atomic bombing of Japan by saying "if Hitler had the bomb he would have done the same".

Laughable logic, by that logic I can go and shoot George W Bush (or anybody really) in the head and defend myself by saying "If Chavez or Hussein or Bin Laden had the chance they would do the same".

What is appropriate, is to mourn these people who die, inocents, and only thank god we weren't in their shoes. It's easy to tell people how it is from behind the comfort and safety of a computer screen, I wonder how they would feel if they were running around dodging bombs or having to live with no legs for the rest of their life, lets see how diplomatic and un angry they are in their logic then.

You are so right about everything you said.
What I wanted to point out, but was soon sorry for making this thread, is exactly what you've said at the end.

About the bombing by allies in the WW2, I have to add this: Hitler was bombing Belgrade on the Easter Day (at 6 AM) in 1941. Belgrade was ruined and 27 000 people died (what was the 10 % of the citizens at the time). But, my family told me that the bombing by allies in 1944 looked more cruel. They didn't care for killing serbian civilians, though their targets were Germans who occupied Belgrade. My grandpa lost a finger then and his father lost a leg.

And, by the way, everyone knows that 80 % of Afganistan drugs go through Kosovo (that's why they have money though the industry is ruined and there is no jobs), also the weapons. And who has the most powerful weapon industry? And I have to repeat, the first two countries who recognized Kosovo as an independent country last year were, guess!, USA and Afganistan. Laughable, right?

elessar
04-04-2010, 02:32 PM
Orchestrating the 1995 Okalhoma City Bombing and the 9/11 attacks. Too many unanswered questions to convince me they didn't at least have a hand in them or fail to prevent them deliberately.
You lost me there, they've been answered a billion times already only idiotic fools who believe in conspiracy theories can't see that.
The saying "bombs do not kill people, people kill people" do ring to mind.
That saying is a joke meant to mock NRA lovers :hug:
Any one person or militia is capable of evil acts, I love people who justify the atomic bombing of Japan by saying "if Hitler had the bomb he would have done the same"

Laughable logic, by that logic I can go and shoot George W Bush (or anybody really) in the head and defend myself by saying "If Chavez or Hussein or Bin Laden had the chance they would do the same".
Your logic is as amusingly flawed as it is on GM, I don't think Hitler would have bombed Japan if he could :hug:

No suprise Bascule agreed with you, no surprise either at the amount of crap in this thread.

Doesn't mean I don't feel sad for all the innocent people who lost their lives :sad:

Bascule
04-04-2010, 06:31 PM
You lost me there, they've been answered a billion times already only idiotic fools who believe in conspiracy theories can't see that.

That saying is a joke meant to mock NRA lovers :hug:

Your logic is as amusingly flawed as it is on GM, I don't think Hitler would have bombed Japan if he could :hug:

No suprise Bascule agreed with you, no surprise either at the amount of crap in this thread.

Doesn't mean I don't feel sad for all the innocent people who lost their lives :sad:
I'm sure most of the people from this forum would agree that you DON'T.
You even bother yourself to come here and poison. Unbelievable.

Aloimeh
04-04-2010, 07:41 PM
I'm sure most of the people from this forum would agree that you DON'T.
You even bother yourself to come here and poison. Unbelievable.

Bascule, give up. From the Bible:

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

The people who knowingly and willingly choose to ignore the truth are responsible for their attitudes and what arises from that. The lack of knowledge and understanding of world affairs is what leads them to support actions throughout history that have been inhumane, criminal, horrific.

Shamefully, the Serbian people lacks a "Jewish" or an "Armenian" attitude. They are too responsive. They responded to Croatia's recent outrageous "genocide" case against Serbia with a counter-case. What they should have done back in 1991 was file a suit for compensation, apologies, and a finding that the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) committed genocide over the Serbs of Croatia, Bosnia, and Srem.

There should be a Serbian Yad Vashem in Belgrade, possibly on the Sajmiste site, to chronicle the happenings of WWII, WWI, and the recent wars, so that visitors to the country who go to this museum get an accurate picture of the truth. Enough of the lies, half-truths, and Serbophobia.

Bascule
04-04-2010, 08:00 PM
Happy Easter, Aloimeh!!!:D

Aloimeh
04-04-2010, 08:13 PM
Happy Easter, Aloimeh!!!:D

Hristos Vaskrese!

«Ivan»
04-04-2010, 08:21 PM
Doesn't mean I don't feel sad for all the innocent people who lost their lives :sad:

:ignore::tape:

Bascule
04-04-2010, 08:33 PM
Hristos Vaskrese!

Vaistinu Vaskrese!

EKSTREMISTA
04-05-2010, 01:32 PM
You lost me there, they've been answered a billion times already only idiotic fools who believe in conspiracy theories can't see that.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/bush_sheep.jpg

“Nineteen Muslim fanatics…bypassed our forty billion dollar defense system…hi-jacked four planes…were totally lost from FAA Radar… satellite radar and NORAD Radar, made their way to New York and crashed into two prominent landmarks… the World Trade Center…another one crashed into the Pentagon…another one crashed in Pennsylvania, and all of this under the direction of a Muslim Cleric hiding in a cave in Afghanistan with a computer. Now, if that isn’t about the craziest conspiracy theory I ever heard…”

Bascule
04-05-2010, 03:21 PM
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/bush_sheep.jpg

“Nineteen Muslim fanatics…bypassed our forty billion dollar defense system…hi-jacked four planes…were totally lost from FAA Radar… satellite radar and NORAD Radar, made their way to New York and crashed into two prominent landmarks… the World Trade Center…another one crashed into the Pentagon…another one crashed in Pennsylvania, and all of this under the direction of a Muslim Cleric hiding in a cave in Afghanistan with a computer. Now, if that isn’t about the craziest conspiracy theory I ever heard…”
Fantastic photo in your post.:)

Black Adam
04-07-2010, 01:00 AM
I recon Serbia shouldn't be admitted into the EU for at least 50 years. There'[s too much blood and dirt on the hands of the current Serb generation.

I also hope Albania and Kosovo are never accepted into the EU, it's just wrong.

Aloimeh
04-07-2010, 01:18 AM
I recon Serbia shouldn't be admitted into the EU for at least 50 years. There'[s too much blood and dirt on the hands of the current Serb generation.

I also hope Albania and Kosovo are never accepted into the EU, it's just wrong.

I certainly hope the EU bureaucrats see things this way. Serbia should never join that bastardly monstrosity of the EU.

DualMedia
04-07-2010, 02:51 AM
I didn't kno this happen because I was the same age as Djordje when this happened. So, know I why all this going on. DUhh me

EKSTREMISTA
04-07-2010, 03:02 PM
I recon Serbia shouldn't be admitted into the EU for at least 50 years.

:yeah:


I also hope Albania and Kosovo are never accepted into the EU, it's just wrong.


But Albanians from Serbian Kosovo and Albania are already in EU.
In Western European countries they took drug and prostitution business from domestic gangsters.

2003
04-07-2010, 10:06 PM
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/bush_sheep.jpg

“Nineteen Muslim fanatics…bypassed our forty billion dollar defense system…hi-jacked four planes…were totally lost from FAA Radar… satellite radar and NORAD Radar, made their way to New York and crashed into two prominent landmarks… the World Trade Center…another one crashed into the Pentagon…another one crashed in Pennsylvania

Even more telling, as a result of the largest failure of the American air defence system in history, was even one person punished? Repromanded? Demoted? Fired.

Nope, infact several people were actually promoted during and after the attacks to higher roles in the defense department for their "compsure" and handling of the crisis.

As far as red herrings go, it's about the biggest one.

And you have to laugh when people say by turning the transponders off they couldn't see the planes on the Radar..the planes would have been even more visible on NORAD radar because they would have been the only 4 blips without their heading information..they would have stood out like dogs balls.

Then you have this 757 waltsing through the most protected airspace in America over Washington D.C..it just gets more bizare!

Vida
04-08-2010, 12:06 AM
in this conflict, as in most of that type, you can easily say that either no side is guilty or all are guilty. so best is to contemplate the issue beyond the idea of guilt at all.

elessar
04-08-2010, 04:03 PM
I'm sure most of the people from this forum would agree that you DON'T.
Well, regardless of the collective brillance of MTF's minds, I still think I'm better equipped to say how I feel about tragedies like this :hug:
You even bother yourself to come here and poison. Unbelievable.

I didn't poison I said I disagreed with 2003 and that I felt sad so many people had died.

Anyway, that was my last post here don't worry.

tangerine_dream
04-08-2010, 07:50 PM
Are EKSTREMISTA and mtw related?

buddyholly
04-08-2010, 11:12 PM
I still believe Mr Churchill & co should be posthumously arrested on the charge of War crimes. Not only Dresden. Karlsruhe, Dortmund, Hannover were destroyed.

Yes, indeed. Very unbritish of him to save Europe from the Nazis, one of the most disgusting group of (sub)humans the modern world has ever seen. He didn't even give diplomacy a chance.

buddyholly
04-08-2010, 11:14 PM
Are EKSTREMISTA and mtw related?

Only in amount of brain tissue.

zeleni
04-08-2010, 11:58 PM
Yes, indeed. Very unbritish of him to save Europe from the Nazis, one of the most disgusting group of (sub)humans the modern world has ever seen. He didn't even give diplomacy a chance.

Like it or not, Europe was saved from Nazis by Soviet Union (if it was saved after millions of dead people).

In fact Brits have their part of responsibility for Hitler. They have fed him for years as pit bull that was supposed to rip Soviet Union. Apparently they have miscalculated. Pit bull attacked them and after Pyrrhic victory over Germany, Britain lost its colonial Empire. (Pit bull analogy UK-Nazism USA-Islamism seems inevitable.)
The real winner of WW2 was America because Soviets, who gave the biggest contribution in victory by far, suffered enormous casualties and destruction.

Minn
04-09-2010, 01:16 AM
Like it or not, Europe was saved from Nazis by Soviet Union... :spit: :haha: :haha: :haha:

buddyholly
04-09-2010, 02:46 AM
Like it or not, Europe was saved from Nazis by Soviet Union (if it was saved after millions of dead people).

In fact Brits have their part of responsibility for Hitler. They have fed him for years as pit bull that was supposed to rip Soviet Union. Apparently they have miscalculated. Pit bull attacked them and after Pyrrhic victory over Germany, Britain lost its colonial Empire. (Pit bull analogy UK-Nazism USA-Islamism seems inevitable.)
The real winner of WW2 was America because Soviets, who gave the biggest contribution in victory by far, suffered enormous casualties and destruction.

Very funny.

If the Brits had not kept Hitler busy in western Europe, he would have overrun the Russian Empire of slave states. The casualties suffered during the war were insignificant compared to the enormous casualties inflicted on his own slaves by Stalin.
And from the suffering brought to Eastern Europe by the Russian Empire after the war, I would hardly call it being ''saved.''

Aloimeh
04-09-2010, 04:56 AM
Very funny.

If the Brits had not kept Hitler busy in western Europe, he would have overrun the Russian Empire of slave states. The casualties suffered during the war were insignificant compared to the enormous casualties inflicted on his own slaves by Stalin.
And from the suffering brought to Eastern Europe by the Russian Empire after the war, I would hardly call it being ''saved.''

History is not your strong suit. The British were pretty irrelevant in the whole affair. The Nazi beast's back was broken at Stalingrad. Had Hitler won the Caucasus and the Urals, he'd have access to enormous agricultural, petroleum, and mineral resources to further propel his war machine.

And I've never seen evidence of Stalin killing 20-25 million citizens of the Soviet Union.

And given Hitler's theories on Slavs as Untermenschen, I have little doubt that had Hitler won there would be no more Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians, etc. as such. They would all have been killed, deported to Siberia, used as slave labor, or assimilated as Germans. The Soviet option, in which many Eastern Europeans faced political oppression but not genocide, was a distinctly better "option" for most.

EKSTREMISTA
04-09-2010, 09:06 AM
In fact Brits have their part of responsibility for Hitler. They have fed him for years as pit bull that was supposed to rip Soviet Union. Apparently they have miscalculated. Pit bull attacked them

Exactly.

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Everyone%20Else/images-3/hitler-time-magazine-cover.jpg

Man of the year.:)


Guido Giacomo: Hitler financed by US/UK Political Class since 1920s to destabilize/gain control of entire Europe and Russia




Nazism is usually depicted as the outcome of political blunders and
unique economic factors: we are told that it could not be prevented,
and that it will never be repeated.
In this explosive book, Guido Giacomo Preparata shows that the truth
is very different: using meticulous economic analysis, he
demonstrates that Hitler's extraordinary rise to power was in fact
facilitated -- and eventually financed -- by the British and American
political classes during the decade following World War I.
Through a close analysis of events in the Third Reich, Preparata
unveils a startling history of Anglo-American geopolitical interests
in the early twentieth century. He explains that Britain, still
clinging to its empire, was terrified of an alliance forming between
Germany and Russia. He shows how the UK, through the Bank of England,
came to exercise control over Weimar Germany and how Anglo-American
financial support for Hitler enabled the Nazis to seize power.
This controversial study shows that Nazism was not regarded as an
aberration: for the British and American establishment of the time,
it was regarded as a convenient way of destabilising Europe and
driving Germany into conflict with Stalinist Russia, thus preventing
the formation of any rival continental power block.
Guido Giacomo Preparata lays bare the economic forces at play in the
Third Reich, and identifies the key players in the British and
American establishment who aided Hitler's meteoric rise. --This text
refers to the Hardcover edition.
About the Author
Guido Giacomo Preparata is Associate Professor of Political Economy
at the University of Washington.
First sentence: "The sudden growth of the German Reich during the
second half of the nineteenth century compelled the British
Commonwealth to launch a sweeping maneuver against the world's
continental landmass." Could have taken the words from my mouth.
And the Anglo Americans are not done sweeping and maneuvering in
Eurasia. Candidate McCain says the US Army could be in Iraq for 100
years. I'm told that when Sen. Lieberman heard it, he supposedly
replied, could be a 1000 or a million years!
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be under the guise of fighting a
foreign enemy." President James Madison
Vincenzo Vinciguerra stated, in sworn testimony on Operation Gladio in Europe: "You had
to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far
removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple: to force ... the public to
turn to the state to ask for greater security."
Former Italian President Francesco Cossiga: "[Bin Laden supposedly confessed] to the
Qaeda September [attack] to the two towers in New York [claiming to be] the author of
the attack of the 11, while all the [intelligence services] of America and Europe ...
now know well that the disastrous attack has been planned and realized from the CIA
American and the Mossad with the aid of the Zionist world in order to put under
accusation the Arabic Countries and in order to induce the western powers to take part
... in Iraq [and] Afghanistan."
"We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States
corporations. This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms
industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political,
even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal
government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail
to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all
involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we
must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought,
by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced
power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger
our liberties or democratic processes." President Dwight D. Eisenhower in a televised
speech 1961
John Swinton New York journalist at a banquet (1880's): "What folly is this, toasting an
independent press? There is no such thing, at this date of the World's history, in
America, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who
dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would
never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinion out of the paper I
am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any
of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets
looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my
paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the
journalists is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at
the feet of Mammon [Biblical ref.], and to sell his country and his race for his daily
bread. You know it and I know it, and what folly is this toasting an independent press?
We are the tools and vassals of "rich men" [Biblical ref.] behind the scenes. We are the
jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and
our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."
"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he
cannot believe it exists". -- J. Edgar Hoover, FBI Director 1924-1972, quoted in The
Elks Magazine (August 1956). "It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from
its [corrupt feudal] government." -- Thomas Paine. "Each of you, for himself, by himself
and on his own responsibility, must speak". -- Mark Twain. "The money powers prey upon
the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. It is more
despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, and more selfish than
bureaucracy. It denounces as public enemies all who question its methods or throw light
upon its crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the
bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe." -- President
Abraham Lincoln. "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary
act." -- George Orwell.
"It is perfectly possible for a man to be out of prison, and yet not free - to be under
no physical constraint and yet to be a psychological captive, compelled to think, feel
and act as the representatives of the national state, or of some private interest within
the nation, wants him to think, feel and act. "The nature of psychological compulsion is
such that those who act under constraint remain under the impression that they are
acting on their own initiative. The victim of mind-manipulation does not know that he is
a victim. To him the walls of his prison are invisible, and he believes himself to be
free. That he is not free is apparent only to other people. His servitude is strictly
objective." Brave New World Revisited, Aldous Huxley, 1958
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance ~ it is the illusion of knowledge."
~ Daniel Boorstin .[this is the illusion that the mainstream news media projects to the sheeple]

scoobs
04-09-2010, 09:20 AM
Like it or not, Europe was saved from Nazis by Soviet Union (if it was saved after millions of dead people).

In fact Brits have their part of responsibility for Hitler. They have fed him for years as pit bull that was supposed to rip Soviet Union. Apparently they have miscalculated. Pit bull attacked them and after Pyrrhic victory over Germany, Britain lost its colonial Empire. (Pit bull analogy UK-Nazism USA-Islamism seems inevitable.)
The real winner of WW2 was America because Soviets, who gave the biggest contribution in victory by far, suffered enormous casualties and destruction.
I tend to think whole situation was rather more complicated than this simplistic analysis would suggest :o

orangehat
04-09-2010, 11:40 AM
I believe there still exists an extreme level of irrational nationalism among serbs (nationalism, not patriotism). The fanaticism of its people is comparable to the nationalism in China, which is surprising seeing as nationalism in China is generated by the sheer majority of numbers in the country.

Hence such a topic would inevitably lead to polarised opinions which would not be beneficial to either side. All I'm going to say is that Serbia (in particularly the serbian government) needs to re-think its ideals about ethnicity and races.

bokehlicious
04-09-2010, 11:43 AM
I believe there still exists an extreme level of irrational nationalism among serbs (nationalism, not patriotism). The fanaticism of its people is comparable to the nationalism in China

One word here: indoctrination

buddyholly
04-09-2010, 12:59 PM
History is not your strong suit. The British were pretty irrelevant in the whole affair. The Nazi beast's back was broken at Stalingrad. Had Hitler won the Caucasus and the Urals, he'd have access to enormous agricultural, petroleum, and mineral resources to further propel his war machine.

And I've never seen evidence of Stalin killing 20-25 million citizens of the Soviet Union.



But you were dealt a void, obviously.

Read some books.

MariaV
04-09-2010, 01:14 PM
History is not your strong suit. The British were pretty irrelevant in the whole affair. The Nazi beast's back was broken at Stalingrad. Had Hitler won the Caucasus and the Urals, he'd have access to enormous agricultural, petroleum, and mineral resources to further propel his war machine.

And I've never seen evidence of Stalin killing 20-25 million citizens of the Soviet Union.

And given Hitler's theories on Slavs as Untermenschen, I have little doubt that had Hitler won there would be no more Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians, etc. as such. They would all have been killed, deported to Siberia, used as slave labor, or assimilated as Germans. The Soviet option, in which many Eastern Europeans faced political oppression but not genocide, was a distinctly better "option" for most.

As buddyholly suggested, read some books and you'll find out about the atrocities Stalin caused. I get your last point but that doesn't mean Stalin's dictatorship was something nicer, the idea of concentration camps originates from Soviet Union btw. :wavey:

I get your last point but let's face it, Stalin would have started the war if Hitler hadn't beaten him to it i.e. started earlier. ;)
It may be difficult to compare the two regimes but I still don't understand why so many people even in the West don't see it acceptable to condemn Stalin's regime at all. Like it's acceptable to kill millions of your own citizens? Just because he happened to be on the winners' side?
OK sorry I'm not going to discuss it any further here.

JolánGagó
04-09-2010, 01:16 PM
Like it or not, Europe was saved from Nazis by Soviet Union

:haha: :haha: :haha:

ignorant idiocy at its peak.

Okonsky
04-09-2010, 01:30 PM
Like it or not, Europe was saved from Nazis by Soviet Union (if it was saved after millions of dead people).

In fact Brits have their part of responsibility for Hitler. *Ashamed Serb*

Good God. How exactly in Serbia? By ****** young women, by stealing stuffs from empty or not so empty houses...by killing people along with comunists...

Please, if you ever met my mother don't tell you a word about Russians and their help or saving from Nazis. She was 19 at that time - 1945, but I'm (somehow) sure you and Aloimeh *born in USA* know what's happened here better than anyone.

I would like to laugh but that's way to sad and pathetic...
Shame on Brits:rolleyes: btw.

N.B. That's my grandad in french army 1945. Sadly, he had to excape from Yugoslavia and fight against nazis and comunists at the same time just cos he defended his king and motherland.

Aloimeh
04-09-2010, 01:32 PM
I believe there still exists an extreme level of irrational nationalism among serbs (nationalism, not patriotism). The fanaticism of its people is comparable to the nationalism in China, which is surprising seeing as nationalism in China is generated by the sheer majority of numbers in the country.

Hence such a topic would inevitably lead to polarised opinions which would not be beneficial to either side. All I'm going to say is that Serbia (in particularly the serbian government) needs to re-think its ideals about ethnicity and races.

You pulled this garbage out of your ass, i.e. media trash you read somewhere. Look at Serbian demographics and you will see that there are many other ethnic groups living in Serbia and that many are accorded a high degree of autonomy, including education in their own language and the like. Hungarians, Croats, Muslims, Albanians, Vlachs, Bulgarians, Romanians, Slovaks, Chinese, etc.

http://schools-wikipedia.org/images/672/67225.png

While Serbian nationalism does have something to do with the disintegration of Yugoslavia, the thesis that it had a primary role as a motivator of the violence is highly questionable, since the violence was initiated by OTHER Western-supported nationalists, i.e. Slovenes, Croats, Muslims, and Albanians who sought to break chunks off of Yugoslavia while violently attacking legal Yugoslav institutions such as the JNA and persecuting Serb minorities (not in Slovenia, but certainly in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo).

Okonsky
04-09-2010, 01:37 PM
And I've never seen evidence of Stalin killing 20-25 million citizens of the Soviet Union.



Hell, no, just 19 millions. In fact Stalin was a good man, tender, full of empathy.

Srebrenica! Not 8.000, just 3.000 as you and your comrades like to point out. Almost nothing, correct? War hero Ratko Mladic had nothing to do with that just like poor Stalin in Russia, correct? 'Western propaganda killed the heaven's Serbs.'

Now, feel free to insult me as much as you like. I adore 'real' Serbs'. Make me horny.

Aloimeh
04-09-2010, 01:39 PM
As buddyholly suggested, read some books and you'll find out about the atrocities Stalin caused. I get your last point but that doesn't mean Stalin's dictatorship was something nicer, the idea of concentration camps originates from Soviet Union btw. :wavey:

I get your last point but let's face it, Stalin would have started the war if Hitler hadn't beaten him to it i.e. started earlier. ;)
It may be difficult to compare the two regimes but I still don't understand why so many people even in the West don't see it acceptable to condemn Stalin's regime at all. Like it's acceptable to kill millions of your own citizens? Just because he happened to be on the winners' side?
OK sorry I'm not going to discuss it any further here.

Nonsense. Modern concentration camps were first used by British against Boers in South Africa. It may have been used before by Spaniards in the Philippines and Cuba, but in the modern era it was by the British.

You provide no evidence of the USSR starting the war if Hitler had not attacked first. The Soviet Union's approach was until then to encourage revolutions in neighboring countries, e.g. Hungary. Yes, there were invasions of some eastern European neighbors that was perceived as Soviet "sphere of influence" due to their being part of the historic Russian empire or potentially unfriendly pro-German countries.

It is NOT acceptable to kill millions of citizens, it is downright horrific. All I am saying is that despite everything that was horrible about the Soviet Union, they did not deliberately kill more people than the Nazis and they did not target ethnic/religious/racial groups for extermination.

And, were it not for the Soviet Union defeating Nazi Germany, Germany would rule all of Europe. WWII in Europe was won on the Eastern Front.

Machiavelli
04-09-2010, 01:41 PM
Hell, no, just 19 millions. In fact Stalin was a good man, tender, full of empathy.

Srebrenica! Not 8.000, just 3.000 as you and your comrades like to point out. Almost nothing, correct? War hero Ratko Mladic had nothing to do with that just like poor Stalin in Russia, correct? 'Western propaganda killed the heaven's Serbs.'

Now, feel free to insult me as much as you like. I adore 'real' Serbs'. Make me horny.

Why do you even try my friend? No point argueing in this thread with the great historians: Aloimeh,zeleni and ekstremista....

scoobs
04-09-2010, 01:42 PM
As buddyholly suggested, read some books and you'll find out about the atrocities Stalin caused. I get your last point but that doesn't mean Stalin's dictatorship was something nicer, the idea of concentration camps originates from Soviet Union btw. :wavey:

I get your last point but let's face it, Stalin would have started the war if Hitler hadn't beaten him to it i.e. started earlier. ;)
It may be difficult to compare the two regimes but I still don't understand why so many people even in the West don't see it acceptable to condemn Stalin's regime at all. Like it's acceptable to kill millions of your own citizens? Just because he happened to be on the winners' side?
OK sorry I'm not going to discuss it any further here.
Concentration camps are generally accepted to be a British invention from the Second Boer War in South Africa at the turn of the 20th century, in fact :o

Aloimeh
04-09-2010, 01:43 PM
*Ashamed Serb*

Good God. How exactly in Serbia? By ****** young women, by stealing stuffs from empty or not so empty houses...by killing people along with comunists...

Please, if you ever met my mother don't tell you a word about Russians and their help or saving from Nazis. She was 19 at that time - 1945, but I'm (somehow) sure you and Aloimeh *born in USA* know what's happened here better than anyone.

I would like to laugh but that's way to sad and pathetic...
Shame on Brits:rolleyes: btw.

N.B. That's my grandad in french army 1945. Sadly, he had to excape from Yugoslavia and fight against nazis and comunists at the same time just cos he defended his king and motherland.

Russians liberated Belgrade, idiot. I don't excuse the atrocities of the Red Army. But were it not for that Red Army, the Germans would have allowed the lovely Independent State of Croatia/Ustase to exterminate all surviving Croatian, Bosnian, and even Vojvodina Serbs on their territory. Germany looked on Slavs, as a group, as people fit to be exterminated and/or sent to do slave labor. Russia obviously did not have such a racialist view of Slavs.

Aloimeh
04-09-2010, 01:47 PM
Hell, no, just 19 millions. In fact Stalin was a good man, tender, full of empathy.

Srebrenica! Not 8.000, just 3.000 as you and your comrades like to point out. Almost nothing, correct? War hero Ratko Mladic had nothing to do with that just like poor Stalin in Russia, correct? 'Western propaganda killed the heaven's Serbs.'

Now, feel free to insult me as much as you like. I adore 'real' Serbs'. Make me horny.

Evidence?

Stalin was a monster who primarily killed his own people out of political interest. Hitler aimed to exterminate entire nations and races.

Western propaganda did lie about what happened in the Srebrenica area in 1992-1995. Not that one atrocity justifies another.

Okonsky
04-09-2010, 01:47 PM
Why do you even try my friend? No point argueing in this thread with the great historians: Aloimeh,zeleni and ekstremista....

Because it hurts Machi. Hopefully MTF people are not retards. I didn't want to write here these days, yes it's tenth aniversary but this (again, n-th time)...I had to write a few words, I'm not that Serb.

Okonsky
04-09-2010, 01:51 PM
Russians liberated Belgrade, idiot.

:haha: Me too :worship:

As for Stalin, Srebrenica...pure sarcasm, nothing more.
------------
I'm off this utterly idiotic thread.

Machiavelli
04-09-2010, 01:52 PM
Evidence?

Stalin was a monster who primarily killed his own people out of political interest. Hitler aimed to exterminate entire nations and races.

Western propaganda did lie about what happened in the Srebrenica area in 1992-1995. Not that one atrocity justifies another.

How can anyone chose between two monsters? Same shit, political or racial killing, no difference.

I guess Srebrenica/Vukovar were minor incidents in the epic fail of having the ''Great Serbia'' up to Karlovac-Karlobag;

I was in Belgrade ten days ago, and had an excellent time there, they accepted me as their own; same goes for my friends/business partners when they visit Zagreb or Dalmatia;

Life would be great without politicians and extremists(on both sides)

MariaV
04-09-2010, 01:52 PM
Concentration camps are generally accepted to be a British invention from the Second Boer War in South Africa at the turn of the 20th century, in fact :o

Really? Wow. :eek: :o I didn't know that, but I know that the nazis went to Soviet Russia to learn about their concetration camps before starting to set up their own. :o

scoobs
04-09-2010, 01:52 PM
Evidence?

Stalin was a monster who primarily killed his own people out of political interest. Hitler aimed to exterminate entire nations and races.

Western propaganda did lie about what happened in the Srebrenica area in 1992-1995. Not that one atrocity justifies another.
That's still only a matter of degree rather than kind.

If Stalin was actually responsible for more deaths than Hitler, does that make him better because he was doing it to his own people (including, mark you, people from nations who didn't want to be in the USSR bit had no choice in the matter) - than Hitler, who was invading other nations? Are the lives of internal citizens of a country at the mercy of a tyrant less valuable?

scoobs
04-09-2010, 01:54 PM
Really? Wow. :eek: :o I didn't know that, but I know that the nazis went to Soviet Russia to learn about their concetration camps before starting to set up their own. :o
One of the stains on my country's past that I feel deep shame for. When it came to the industrialisation of the scale of war and treatment of civilian populations, Britannia was in there right at the start, showing the way :(

MariaV
04-09-2010, 01:57 PM
One of the stains on my country's past that I feel deep shame for. When it came to the industrialisation of the scale of war and treatment of civilian populations, Britannia was in there right at the start, showing the way :(

And actually I'd say the Brits were not better than the Russians making pacts with Hitler before WW II. :p I am not blaming you for it though. :lol:

Okonsky
04-09-2010, 02:00 PM
I was in Belgrade ten days ago, and had an excellent time there, they accepted me as their own; same goes for my friends/business partners when they visit Zagreb or Dalmatia;

Just like me in Sibenik and Zadar a few months ago. Next time we should meet. There's a few brand new great night clubs :)


Life would be great without politicians and extremists(on both sides)

:worship:

Aloimeh
04-09-2010, 02:00 PM
How can anyone chose between two monsters? Same shit, political or racial killing, no difference.

I guess Srebrenica/Vukovar were minor incidents in the epic fail of having the ''Great Serbia'' up to Karlovac-Karlobag;

I was in Belgrade ten days ago, and had an excellent time there, they accepted me as their own; same goes for my friends/business partners when they visit Zagreb or Dalmatia;

Life would be great without politicians and extremists(on both sides)

I don't "choose" between monsters. I do look at what Hitler did during the war and I draw conclusions as to what his eventual plan was. Maybe you as a Croat feel comfortable that the Germans wouldn't turn on your people. Iranian origins, Gothic origins, or something. However, we know what happened at Jasenovac, that millions of Poles, Ukrainians, and Russians were exterminated by Nazis because Slav lives were sh!t for the Nazis. If only out of self interest, I look at that, not to mention what the Nazis did to Jews and Roma.

I acknowledge the role the Soviet Union had in destroying Nazism. I do not applaud Soviet atrocities or human rights abuses, but I do applaud their defeat of something that was, in my view, even more evil than the Communist regime - National Socialism.

Don't talk crap about Vukovar/Srebrenica. I am well aware of BOTH sets of atrocities there and just because you choose to ignore the Zengas, Tomislav Mercep, Branimir Glavas, Slavonska Brigada Tigrovi, and other Croatian neo-fascists operating in Vukovar before the fall (and perpetrating numerous atrocities against Serbs there), doesn't mean I will forget it.

scoobs
04-09-2010, 02:02 PM
And actually I'd say the Brits were not better than the Russians making pacts with Hitler before WW II. :p I am not blaming you for it though. :lol:
The history of WWII is nothing without looking at the history of WWI - without the disastrous WWI settlement there would have been no Hitler and possibly therefore no WWII. The post war settlement after WWI was an utter disaster in a huge variety of ways, leading to WWII, leading to the problems in the Balkans, leading to problems in Africa, to the constant crises in the Middle East, the rise of Soviet Russia...the list goes on.

Not that some of these areas would not have been flashpoints anyway - religious, ethnic and racial tensions obviously pre-dated the shots fired in Sarajevo in 1914, but we're still dealing with many and varied effects today that arise from decisions taken 90 years agio.

Aloimeh
04-09-2010, 02:04 PM
That's still only a matter of degree rather than kind.

If Stalin was actually responsible for more deaths than Hitler, does that make him better because he was doing it to his own people (including, mark you, people from nations who didn't want to be in the USSR bit had no choice in the matter) - than Hitler, who was invading other nations? Are the lives of internal citizens of a country at the mercy of a tyrant less valuable?

I'd like to see evidence that Stalin killed more people than Hitler. Either way, it's rather irrelevant whether he killed 10 million or 50 million people - both are horrific - but I'm not going to just accept some random figure put out there.

All lives are in principle equally valuable. I find both Communism and National Socialism repulsive, but I find the latter more repulsive. There's something about the gas chambers and the crematoria and the craniometrics and the medical experiments and the race theories that takes the genocidal racialism of the Nazis to a "higher level" of horror than the Soviet class-based atrocities.

And, I resent constant attempts to minimize the role of the Soviets, or the Russian people if you will, in liberating Europe in WWII. As bad as the Soviet Union was, it did win WWII in Europe and that required a massive sacrifice of many millions of Russian lives, and I'm not going to spit on that sacrifice as seems to be in vogue on this forum and many others.

MariaV
04-09-2010, 02:06 PM
The history of WWII is nothing without looking at the history of WWI - without the disastrous WWI settlement there would have been no Hitler and possibly therefore no WWII. The post war settlement after WWI was an utter disaster in a huge variety of ways, leading to WWII, leading to the problems in the Balkans, leading to problems in Africa, to the constant crises in the Middle East, the rise of Soviet Russia...the list goes on.

Not that some of these areas would not have been flashpoints anyway - religious, ethnic and racial tensions obviously pre-dated the shots fired in Sarajevo in 1914, but we're still dealing with many and varied effects today that arise from decisions taken 90 years agio.

Oh yeah and who knows how long we're gonna (have to) deal with them. Not going to get into that debate any more. Have a calm weekend everyone! :wavey:

EKSTREMISTA
04-09-2010, 02:10 PM
Hell, no, just 19 millions. In fact Stalin was a good man, tender, full of empathy.

Srebrenica! Not 8.000, just 3.000 as you and your comrades like to point out. Almost nothing, correct?

Not 3000. Just 442 victims of unknown identity executed by Croatian Dražen Erdemović and dogs of war in special unit of RS Army without Mladić's order.

And finally Bosnian Muslims are starting to admit what everyone knew:
RDC finds 500 dead persons from Srebrenica alive
Dnevni Avaz, pg 8, Nezavisne Novine, front page and pg 6 – President of the Sarajevo-based Research and Documentation Centre (RDC) Mirsad Tokaca presented the ‘Bosnian atlas of war crimes’ yesterday in Banja Luka, where he said that during the research project the RDC found 500 persons from Srebrenica who were considered dead.
In addition to this, Tokaca’s team has determined that some 70 persons whose names are on the lists of people killed in Srebrenica actually died or were killed in some other place and in some other time.
“We are happy to see that there are living people among those considered dead and that’s the best part of our work,” said Tokaca, adding that “the greatest problem in BiH is a perfidious monopoly over information” and that the RDC wanted to break that monopoly during the creation of the ‘Bosnian atlas of war crimes’.

http://www.eupm.org/Detail.aspx?ID=1368&TabID=5





500 is a good start.
Maybe we will have to wait for 15 years to find out the true number of victims.

scoobs
04-09-2010, 02:13 PM
I'd like to see evidence that Stalin killed more people than Hitler. Either way, it's rather irrelevant whether he killed 10 million or 50 million people - both are horrific - but I'm not going to just accept some random figure put out there.

All lives are in principle equally valuable. I find both Communism and National Socialism repulsive, but I find the latter more repulsive. There's something about the gas chambers and the crematoria and the craniometrics and the medical experiments and the race theories that takes the genocidal racialism of the Nazis to a "higher level" of horror than the Soviet class-based atrocities.

And, I resent constant attempts to minimize the role of the Soviets, or the Russian people if you will, in liberating Europe in WWII. As bad as the Soviet Union was, it did win WWII in Europe and that required a massive sacrifice of many millions of Russian lives, and I'm not going to spit on that sacrifice as seems to be in vogue on this forum and many others.
I see what you're saying to an extent - the ideology behind national socialism and the demented and horrific things that were done in its name are more chilling and terrifying than the more commonplace horrors perpetrated by a domestic tyrant....but at the scale both of these events operated, I find it hard to form a value judgement about which one is ultimately worse...one Jewish life evilly taken in a concentration camp in Dachau or one Russian deported to the inhospitable regions of Siberia and dying of exposure and malnutrition...it's still a life wrongly taken and the sheer numbers involved in both cases, and in others, defy the imagination.

Without the support of Soviet Russia and the many hundreds of thousands who died on the killing fields of the Eastern Front and other arenas, it's highly unlikely National Socialism would have been defeated and that does deserve recognition and respect - it wasn't all the UK and America and allied forces.

For me, though, as I wasn't left under the direct or indirect control of the USSR after the Nazis were defeated, I don't feel qualified to comment on whether for those people, that was a price worth paying. It shouldn't be forgotten either that the price paid by people in Russia, the soviet satellite nations in Eastern Europe, in Berlin, in Afghanistan, in the Caucasus...that price was an extremely high one.

Machiavelli
04-09-2010, 02:13 PM
Don't talk crap about Vukovar/Srebrenica. I am well aware of BOTH sets of atrocities there and just because you choose to ignore the Zengas, Tomislav Mercep, Branimir Glavas, Slavonska Brigada Tigrovi, and other Croatian neo-fascists operating in Vukovar before the fall (and perpetrating numerous atrocities against Serbs there), doesn't mean I will forget it.

Where did i defend Glavas, Mercep or any other croatian war criminals?

Big difference is we did send the majority of our big name war criminals to Den Haague; Serbia did not!

Off course there were war crimes comitted on the croatian side, but if you accept it or not it was not 50-50; plus croatia did not cross the serbian borders? or did we? Who used the Yugoslavian army for their own purposes

Partizan def. Maccabi lately in a great match; what were those posters(''Srbija do Knina''), and there was not even a Croatian team or player included? I don't say there are no neo-nazis in Croatia, and of course there are issues with the Thopson concerts and the ''Ustashe'' wannabes, just that the situation in Serbia regarding this matter is worse...

We have to learn to keep movin on, we are neighbours, we can't ignore each other...

Bascule
04-09-2010, 02:41 PM
Yes, soviet soldiers did horrible act ****** women in Belgrade (but I guess they did it also in other places, don't know about the other armies), Manon, but they did make the major contribution against Nazis. Also, Manon, how many musllims from Srebrenica were found and buried and how many serbian civilians around Srebrenica killed by Naser Orlic and the others? I don't justify any war crime, but why are you ashamed being a serb, but not your friend Machiavelli being a croat?
BTW, Machiavelli, I can't believe how ignorant you are.

Okonsky
04-09-2010, 02:51 PM
Yes, soviet soldiers did horrible act ****** women in Belgrade (but I guess they did it also in other places, don't know about the other armies), Manon, but they did make the major contribution against Nazis. Also, Manon, how many musllims from Srebrenica were found and buried and how many serbian civilians around Srebrenica killed by Naser Orlic and the others? I don't justify any war crime, but why are you ashamed being a serb, but not your friend Machiavelli being a croat?
BTW, Machiavelli, I can't believe how ignorant you are.

Oric.

Don't you worry for Machi, he would do exactly the same as I did in reverse situation. Btw he's ignorant because of...?

Crimes did all sides, we're responsible for ours or in our name. How many killed in Srebrenica? Well Bascule, hundred or billion = the same. I don't count.

Bascule
04-09-2010, 02:57 PM
Oric.

Don't you worry for Machi, he would do exactly the same as I did in reverse situation. Btw he's ignorant because of...?

Crimes did all sides, we're responsible for ours or in our name. How many killed in Srebrenica? Well Bascule, hundred or billion = the same. I don't count.

Oric, right.
In what reverse situation? What croats did to serbs? It was not enough? Read his posts from the beginning and you will see.

bokehlicious
04-09-2010, 03:02 PM
manon :hug: seems to be one of the few Serbs on here that still can think and seems objective. I guess that's because he left Serbia and its propaganda :shrug:

Bascule
04-09-2010, 03:05 PM
manon :hug: seems to be one of the few Serbs on here that still can think and seems objective. I guess that's because he left Serbia and its propaganda :shrug:

I am absolutely sure that your knowledge about history on this places is not close enough to let you write any kind of comments.:)
Not to mention you racist posts against serbs that you've been banned for...:worship:

bokehlicious
04-09-2010, 03:08 PM
I am absolutely sure that your knowledge about history on this places is not close enough to let you write any kind of comments.:)

I see you argue with people by telling them to shut up, the Serbians were used to those tactics indeed :o :hug:


Not to mention you racist posts against serbs that you've been banned for...:worship:

I've not been banned for that :shrug:

Bascule
04-09-2010, 03:13 PM
I see you argue with people by telling them to shut up, the Serbians were used to those tactics indeed :o :hug:

I didn't tell you to shut up at all. Just the facts.:)

I've not been banned for that :shrug:

Really? I was wrong then for never reporting you. But you were warned few times at least for the same...and I didn't even showed them the PM you sent me, what the pearls!:wavey:

bokehlicious
04-09-2010, 03:15 PM
Really? I was wrong then for never reporting you. But you were warned few times at least for the same...and I didn't even showed them the PM you sent me, what the pearls!:wavey:

By sticking to your "Serbia did nothing wrong" moto you surely won't help me think you're less :cuckoo: :awww: I still love you anyway :hug:

bokehlicious
04-09-2010, 03:16 PM
I didn't tell you to shut up at all. Just the facts.:)


And how would you know my (lack of) knowledge about history? :scratch:

orangehat
04-09-2010, 03:17 PM
You pulled this garbage out of your ass, i.e. media trash you read somewhere. Look at Serbian demographics and you will see that there are many other ethnic groups living in Serbia and that many are accorded a high degree of autonomy, including education in their own language and the like. Hungarians, Croats, Muslims, Albanians, Vlachs, Bulgarians, Romanians, Slovaks, Chinese, etc.

http://schools-wikipedia.org/images/672/67225.png

While Serbian nationalism does have something to do with the disintegration of Yugoslavia, the thesis that it had a primary role as a motivator of the violence is highly questionable, since the violence was initiated by OTHER Western-supported nationalists, i.e. Slovenes, Croats, Muslims, and Albanians who sought to break chunks off of Yugoslavia while violently attacking legal Yugoslav institutions such as the JNA and persecuting Serb minorities (not in Slovenia, but certainly in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo).

segregation does not equate to autonomy.

Bascule
04-09-2010, 03:20 PM
By sticking to your "Serbia did nothing wrong" moto you surely won't help me think you're less :cuckoo: :awww: I still love you anyway :hug:

I never said "Serbia did nothing wrong", but every single time when we talked here about situations connected to serbs, you showed your "love" for the serbs each time. I just don't understand such interest you have for us. I am flattered anyway, but no need to repeat yourself so much.

bokehlicious
04-09-2010, 03:24 PM
I never said "Serbia did nothing wrong", but every single time when we talked here about situations connected to serbs, you showed your "love" for the serbian each time. I just don't understand such interest you have for us. I am flattered anyway, but no need to repeat yourself so much.

:lol: How many posts do I have on this thread? I think you should aim your hatred to other posters that posted way more on the matter, those that didn't kiss Serbia's ass either... :o

I don't really give a damn to be honest :hug:, am just bugged by the fact that the Serbs on here seem to "know the truth" while the rest of the world is just a victim of the western propaganda... :o

Bascule
04-09-2010, 03:31 PM
:lol: How many posts do I have on this thread? I think you should aim your hatred to other posters that posted way more on the matter, those that didn't kiss Serbia's ass either... :o

I don't really give a damn to be honest :hug:, am just bugged by the fact that the Serbs on here seem to "know the truth" while the rest of the world is just a victim of the western propaganda... :o

Serbs are involved the most in their history and their own problems, n'est-pas? So, they certainly do know more about themselves than you and some others from the distant.
I didn't refer just to this thread, but every other single thread connected to serbian history. You were also extremely happy about Kosovo last year...and you say you don't give a damn...don't be so modest.

Bascule
04-09-2010, 03:34 PM
I think you should aim your hatred to other posters

BTW, I don't remember I chased you with my "hate", but you were the unique among the posters who sent me the nasty PMs. If you insist to tell others about them, OK.

bokehlicious
04-09-2010, 03:35 PM
Serbs are involved the most in their history and their own problems, n'est-pas? So, they certainly do know more about themselves than you and some others from the distant.
I didn't refer just to this thread, but every other single thread connected to serbian history. You were also extremely happy about Kosovo last year...and you say you don't give a damn...don't be so modest.

I didn't know the Balkan issues only involved Serbia, but I must be wrong :rolleyes: :o

I hate Djokovic because he's a prick, if I had to call every Fed hater a racist towards the Swiss I guess half these forums would be labelled as such...

You should be more relaxed as a mature lady :hug:

Bascule
04-09-2010, 03:37 PM
I didn't know the Balkan issues only involved Serbia, but I must be wrong :rolleyes: :o

I hate Djokovic because he's a prick, if I had to call every Fed hater a racist towards the Swiss I guess half these forums would be labelled as such...

You should be more relaxed as a mature lady :hug:

Classy from you, as usual.

bokehlicious
04-09-2010, 03:37 PM
BTW, I don't remember I chased you with my "hate", but you were the unique among the posters who sent me the nasty PMs. If you insist to tell others about them, OK.

Go ahead, too bad you can't have them from back then, unless you'll get something off your arse :o

Again, why picking on my one post while there's plenty of other posts more "anti Serbia" as you would call them and yet you don't jump on them :o

buddyholly
04-09-2010, 03:42 PM
It is NOT acceptable to kill millions of citizens, it is downright horrific. All I am saying is that despite everything that was horrible about the Soviet Union, they did not deliberately kill more people than the Nazis and they did not target ethnic/religious/racial groups for extermination.

And, were it not for the Soviet Union defeating Nazi Germany, Germany would rule all of Europe. WWII in Europe was won on the Eastern Front.

You seem determined to reduce this to ''whoever exterminated the least is the most admirable.'' And to say that the Stalin did not target any groups is ridiculous........... oh wait, maybe it is true to claim that he just exterminated across the board. Even exterminated millions of Communists just to keep the live ones on their toes.

My original point is that British doggedness in keeping the Western Front open was a determining factor in Hitler's failure on the Eastern Front.

I am bemused that such a devoted Christian as yourself can find anything not to loathe in Stalin's empire.