Serve and Volley: US Open 2002 [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Serve and Volley: US Open 2002

BackhandMissile
02-12-2009, 05:44 PM
A clip I found on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC99glR53wE&feature=related

HattonWBA
02-12-2009, 05:45 PM
and.......

bluefork
02-12-2009, 05:50 PM
That's interesting to watch. But I can't help but feel that (and don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Pete) Nadal would eat Sampras alive. As long as he could get Sampras' serve back he'd have a look at a passing shot, and he could make many more of those than Agassi did. That style worked ten years ago, but given the court speeds and racquet technology, it really isn't feasible anymore. It's a shame that we don't see more variety in styles of play, but that's just the way it is now.

kobulingam
02-12-2009, 06:01 PM
That's interesting to watch. But I can't help but feel that (and don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Pete) Nadal would eat Sampras alive. As long as he could get Sampras' serve back he'd have a look at a passing shot, and he could make many more of those than Agassi did. That style worked ten years ago, but given the court speeds and racquet technology, it really isn't feasible anymore. It's a shame that we don't see more variety in styles of play, but that's just the way it is now.

Even Agassi would have beaten Sampras on a slower hardcourt that day. The US Open surface was fast enough to make Sampras' serve/netrushing work really well.

Yves.
02-12-2009, 06:33 PM
I love this. I watched it before, I miss this so much :sad:

Henry Chinaski
02-12-2009, 06:33 PM
That's interesting to watch. But I can't help but feel that (and don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Pete) Nadal would eat Sampras alive. As long as he could get Sampras' serve back he'd have a look at a passing shot, and he could make many more of those than Agassi did. That style worked ten years ago, but given the court speeds and racquet technology, it really isn't feasible anymore. It's a shame that we don't see more variety in styles of play, but that's just the way it is now.

On grass?

No chance. Fast grass, slow grass, whatever.

Burrow
02-12-2009, 06:45 PM
I miss this tennis too.

:Zaz:
02-12-2009, 10:55 PM
Ah beautiful tennis, seems like just a dream now.

Andi-M
02-12-2009, 11:00 PM
Sampras phenomenal volleyer!!

Nice watch :)

andylovesaustin
02-12-2009, 11:08 PM
Loved Andre and Pete.

I have a vague recollection.. of reading or hearing something:
didn't TPTB slow up the courts because people were tired of the short points or something like that?

I could have sworn I read somewhere that with the racquet technology tennis was just becoming a sport of serves and maybe a few points?

To me, it's just so weird to read all the negative against Rafa's style of play because I seem to recall there was a lot of negative about the points being too short, serves dominating, a lot people being bored with it?

I just think there needs to be a balance because either style of play can become boring.

BackhandMissile
02-12-2009, 11:20 PM
To me, it's just so weird to read all the negative against Rafa's style of play because I seem to recall there was a lot of negative about the points being too short, serves dominating, a lot people being bored with it?

Serve and volley definitely was considered as being too quick and unoriginal not too long ago, and in fact the rallies you see in Nadal's matches were what people were looking for, especially in the form of intense 5-setter grand slam finals.

Of course you need a balance at the end of the day. Anything gets boring if its monotonous.

Tsonganator
02-12-2009, 11:27 PM
This thing about raquet technology being an explanation doesn't make sense to me. If the raquets are getting more powerful shouldn't the ATP have slowed the courts so play would continue to play at the same level? The fact that the courts have been disproportionately slowed down compared to the increase in raquet power means that they simply wanted to change how pro tennis is played. Not that I consider today's tennis much worse than a decade ago, its just seems very reckless and uninhibited the way the ATP could radically slow down all surfaces to make a uniform style of play.

andylovesaustin
02-12-2009, 11:47 PM
This thing about raquet technology being an explanation doesn't make sense to me. If the raquets are getting more powerful shouldn't the ATP have slowed the courts so play would continue to play at the same level? The fact that the courts have been disproportionately slowed down compared to the increase in raquet power means that they simply wanted to change how pro tennis is played. Not that I consider today's tennis much worse than a decade ago, its just seems very reckless and uninhibited the way the ATP could radically slow down all surfaces to make a uniform style of play.

Well, what I recall is that people were concerned about the popularity of the game. I recall golf becoming extremely popular, and the public being more interested in golf than tennis.

I really wonder if TPTB just took an expedient measure in hopes of creating more interest possibly with longer points?

I have no idea. I just find it interesting.

FairWeatherFan
02-13-2009, 12:16 AM
Great video of tennis when it was alive and well. Seems like a distant dream now. Thanks for posting.

Voo de Mar
02-13-2009, 12:35 AM
Sampras phenomenal volleyer!!

Nice watch :)

For me Sampras was always a player with amazing 1st and 2nd serve (it's important to underline since Karlovic's 2nd serve for example is pathetic in comparison to Sampras' one), stunning forehand and the best overhead I've ever seen (not after the bounce - it was Agassi's realm).
It's a video from his last professional match, I think he has been improving as a volleyer through the years but personally I appreciate more as the serve-and-volleyers players like Edberg, Becker, Rafter, Stich, Krajicek or even... Siemerink.

fast_clay
02-13-2009, 12:48 AM
Sampras' game was too robust and clinical... just a beast... yeah, the volleys weren't sexy... but, they were brutish and effective... magic how he would shut down matches on the back of his unreturnable second serves... watching the entire sampras career, i must say i am one of the guilty ones who could watch sampras and think... 'what year is this guy gonna hurry up and lose a bit...?' ...now its 'where did all that volley sh!te go...?'

i will never, ever wish away a true attacking player again...

habibko
02-13-2009, 01:20 AM
Serve and volley definitely was considered as being too quick and unoriginal not too long ago, and in fact the rallies you see in Nadal's matches were what people were looking for, especially in the form of intense 5-setter grand slam finals.

Of course you need a balance at the end of the day. Anything gets boring if its monotonous.

exactly, we all miss S&V now but when it was all people could see some 25 years ago they thought Tennis matches was all serve and boring, I don't wish for those times to return, I wish to see more dedicated S&V players, I've seen Henri Kontinen in the junior final of Wimbledon 2008 serve and volley on 1st and 2nd serve and I was thrilled, if he happens to become successful one day then we could see more of this style with the upcoming juniors, I just wish to see more contrast of styles on tour.

GlennMirnyi
02-13-2009, 01:40 AM
That's interesting to watch. But I can't help but feel that (and don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Pete) Nadal would eat Sampras alive. As long as he could get Sampras' serve back he'd have a look at a passing shot, and he could make many more of those than Agassi did. That style worked ten years ago, but given the court speeds and racquet technology, it really isn't feasible anymore. It's a shame that we don't see more variety in styles of play, but that's just the way it is now.

If you think Agassi was a worse returner than Nadull, you must be on some heavy illegal stuff.

exactly, we all miss S&V now but when it was all people could see some 25 years ago they thought Tennis matches was all serve and boring, I don't wish for those times to return, I wish to see more dedicated S&V players, I've seen Henri Kontinen in the junior final of Wimbledon 2008 serve and volley on 1st and 2nd serve and I was thrilled, if he happens to become successful one day then we could see more of this style with the upcoming juniors, I just wish to see more contrast of styles on tour.

25 years ago = 1984. You're way wrong. You should do a bit of researching.

habibko
02-13-2009, 01:50 AM
25 years ago = 1984. You're way wrong. You should do a bit of researching.

I didn't mean exactly 25 years I meant decades ago in general, lets say when 3 slams were played on grass to be more specific, you get the point.

even at 1984 the dominant style was still S&V anyway.

Kalinikos
02-13-2009, 01:57 AM
Great Vid of Sampras and Agassi. You guys should also check out this one of Sampras baseline genius against agassi in the 2002 us open final. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zKCLaPPskI&fmt=18

Kolya
02-13-2009, 02:03 AM
Sampras is not the best volleyer compared to Edberg etc., but with those clutch serves you just need a solid volley to win.

Ahh 2002... where has the time gone?

Bernard Black
02-13-2009, 02:11 AM
Thank you for posting these links guys.

What a fantastic player Sampras was. Just an unbelievable all-round game, people make the mistake of thinking he barrelled forward on a wing and a prayer at every opportunity but he could kill the likes of Agassi from the baseline too. Obviously those are just highlights on Youtube but look at the way Agassi tries to pin him down on the backhand but Sampras hits back with aggressive backhands to keep Agassi on the back-foot and eventually set up that huge running forehand - Federer dreams he could play like that.

I must admit I found Sampras so boring when I was a youngster. He won everything with such ease and always laid a beatdown on our British players. Now the game has changed so much, it's baseline bludgeoning and that's the only gameplan players seem to have. I really miss the days when players actually had games of more than one dimension.

fast_clay
02-13-2009, 02:47 AM
Great Vid of Sampras and Agassi. You guys should also check out this one of Sampras baseline genius against agassi in the 2002 us open final. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zKCLaPPskI&fmt=18

yeah good study that...

the infinite trust Sampras had in his his first and seceond deliveries really allowed him the freedom to open up the on return games - from the word go... it allowed him to really dictate the entire pace of the match, a very front-on battle, with both the serve and return being the chance to end points and short angles being left for the volleys... so many times you'd see it go game for game until 5-5all when sampras broke then held... but, thats how it is with proper attacking tennis in Sampras' era... signalling your intention time and time again, regardless about the loss of points or missed return, looked half the battle with Sampras - with an unbreakable serve, it'd be pretty tough knowing that sooner or later some of his returns are gonna hit the lines...

fast_clay
02-13-2009, 03:08 AM
the 2001 QF between Sampras and Agassi was of a far superior quality... there was no ebb and flow... just flow...
2VUBtEbuOuY&feature=related
'the best match i have ever seen...' Frew McMillan

GlennMirnyi
02-13-2009, 03:27 AM
I didn't mean exactly 25 years I meant decades ago in general, lets say when 3 slams were played on grass to be more specific, you get the point.

even at 1984 the dominant style was still S&V anyway.

But still it wasn't boring. It was S&V, not pure serve. I understand some people might get bored with the serve-fest of the 90s, but still it was better than today. In the 80s, no comparison.

Sampras is not the best volleyer compared to Edberg etc., but with those clutch serves you just need a solid volley to win.

Ahh 2002... where has the time gone?

Seasons will pass you by... I get up I get down.

Sorry for the digression, just a bit of Yes seemed adequate here.

Thank you for posting these links guys.

What a fantastic player Sampras was. Just an unbelievable all-round game, people make the mistake of thinking he barrelled forward on a wing and a prayer at every opportunity but he could kill the likes of Agassi from the baseline too. Obviously those are just highlights on Youtube but look at the way Agassi tries to pin him down on the backhand but Sampras hits back with aggressive backhands to keep Agassi on the back-foot and eventually set up that huge running forehand - Federer dreams he could play like that.

I must admit I found Sampras so boring when I was a youngster. He won everything with such ease and always laid a beatdown on our British players. Now the game has changed so much, it's baseline bludgeoning and that's the only gameplan players seem to have. I really miss the days when players actually had games of more than one dimension.

Two things that Sampras had (especially after he matured as a player) that Federer never seemed to show he has:

- The obstinacy to win. Federer sometimes seems to only care about showing off his game (and ego). Sampras would do whatever necessary to win a match.
- The absolute lack of mercy or nerves at important moments. This would encompass the absolute lack of any sense of inferiority against whoever it was. Federer when he starts playing against Nadull, for instance, already looks beaten - he's afraid of what's gonna happen.

bluefork
02-13-2009, 03:28 AM
If you think Agassi was a worse returner than Nadull, you must be on some heavy illegal stuff.

I definitely didn't say that. I just meant that Nadal would be more successful at passing Sampras than Agassi was in that match.

FairWeatherFan
02-13-2009, 03:39 AM
I definitely didn't say that. I just meant that Nadal would be more successful at passing Sampras than Agassi was in that match.

Maybe on today's joke courts, but back then Sampras would murder Nadal on both grass and hard. No way could you suffice with standing 4 metres behind the baseline and hitting heavy topspin to Sampras on those surfaces, he would come to the net and win the matches with aggression.
Federer is probably a better player than Sampras (though I will always prefer Sampras as the GOAT because he played tennis at the net, where it should be played). However, Sampras was never as heavily dominated against a player as Federer is by Nadal. Sampras had the best mental game of any player in history and it would simply never be possible to dominate him in such a way. He would find a way to win and Nadal's physicality would not phase him.

GlennMirnyi
02-13-2009, 03:51 AM
I definitely didn't say that. I just meant that Nadal would be more successful at passing Sampras than Agassi was in that match.

And do you think he'd get a chance?

Sampras wasn't as tentative as Frauderer is, volleyed better and served better.

You could say Nadull would win more baseline rallies, but on faster courts, even that is debatable.

SaFed2005
02-13-2009, 03:53 AM
Maybe on today's joke courts, but back then Sampras would murder Nadal on both grass and hard. No way could you suffice with standing 4 metres behind the baseline and hitting heavy topspin to Sampras on those surfaces, he would come to the net and win the matches with aggression.
Federer is probably a better player than Sampras (though I will always prefer Sampras as the GOAT because he played tennis at the net, where it should be played). However, Sampras was never as heavily dominated against a player as Federer is by Nadal. Sampras had the best mental game of any player in history and it would simply never be possible to dominate him in such a way. He would find a way to win and Nadal's physicality would not phase him.

You have got some good points there. I think Sampras had the best mental game in the history of tennis. Nadal makes Federer's mental game look PATHETIC for someone with 13 grandslams to his name.

"(though I will always prefer Sampras as the GOAT because he played tennis at the net, where it should be played)"
I totally disagree with that part of your statement. Unless you would like to show me a rule somewhere that says it is illegal to play tennis from the baseline and that it should only be played at the net.

And like you said I think Sampras would beat Nadal 9 out of 10 times on grass or hard. I just don't see Nadal doing well against the knd of drop shots Sampras hit. It just not gonna happen. sampras is a pretty smart player and those drop volleys would just kill Nadal. Plus Sampras hits the ball really flat compared to Federer. Look at the way Tsonga crushed Nadal at AO last year and think about what Sampras would do to him. Nadal is not exactly the greatest serve returner. He has a lot of problems with big serves.

RagingLamb
02-13-2009, 03:56 AM
Great match by Pete, but he was way past his prime by that time.

Just look at where he's hitting his volleys from, either right on the service line, or just behind it. It's tough to hit good first volleys from these positions.

Of course in his prime it was a different story.

GlennMirnyi
02-13-2009, 03:59 AM
Sampras would beat Nadull 11 times out of 10 outside clay.

By the way, Sampras wasn't always such a net-player - he started going to the net more as he got older, especially outside fast surfaces.

Sampras >>>> Federer. No doubt about it.

habibko
02-13-2009, 04:10 AM
Sampras would beat Nadull 11 times out of 10 outside clay.

By the way, Sampras wasn't always such a net-player - he started going to the net more as he got older, especially outside fast surfaces.

Sampras >>>> Federer. No doubt about it.

S&V game: Sampras >>>> Federer

baseline rallies: Federer >>>> Sampras in any day on any surface

FairWeatherFan
02-13-2009, 04:14 AM
I totally disagree with that part of your statement. Unless you would like to show me a rule somewhere that says it is illegal to play tennis from the baseline and that it should only be played at the net.

I meant this is more as a matter of personal taste. Nevertheless, in terms of style of play, I think all-court prowess is required to be an arguable GOAT. Therefore I would never consider for example Agassi or Nadal the GOAT even if they beat the slam record.

leng jai
02-13-2009, 04:20 AM
the 2001 QF between Sampras and Agassi was of a far superior quality... there was no ebb and flow... just flow...
2VUBtEbuOuY&feature=related
'the best match i have ever seen...' Frew McMillan

More like best commentary I've ever heard. Just laughing every 2 seconds :worship:

Macbrother
02-13-2009, 04:52 AM
Sampras would beat Nadull 11 times out of 10 outside clay.

By the way, Sampras wasn't always such a net-player - he started going to the net more as he got older, especially outside fast surfaces.

Sampras >>>> Federer. No doubt about it.

Only for samprastards. Which granted, is not a bad tard to be, but still purely fantasy.

Nadal and Agassi are utterly incomparable. Please don't make me laugh and compare what Nadal can do on the run versus what Agassi can do on the run. Agassi on the run against Sampras was 99% point loss, what Nadal does on the run is the stuff of legends. Likewise, Nadal is far mentally tougher, he has the exact same Sampras will to win that you spoke of.. this is not to mention his laser-like passes. What would happen (on any surface other than clay) is not really known.. although for sure I like Sampras on 90's grass and of course on our precious, still preserved decoturf. :)

SaFed2005
02-13-2009, 05:08 AM
Only for samprastards. Which granted, is not a bad tard to be, but still purely fantasy.

Nadal and Agassi are utterly incomparable. Please don't make me laugh and compare what Nadal can do on the run versus what Agassi can do on the run. Agassi on the run against Sampras was 99% point loss, what Nadal does on the run is the stuff of legends. Likewise, Nadal is far mentally tougher, he has the exact same Sampras will to win that you spoke of.. this is not to mention his laser-like passes. What would happen (on any surface other than clay) is not really known.. although for sure I like Sampras on 90's grass and of course on our precious, still preserved decoturf. :)

Ya I am waiting for them to slow down the USO to suit Nadal's game more. I have never played tennis on grass but man those decoturf courts at the uso are fast. Faster than any other hardcourt I have played on.

Macbrother
02-13-2009, 05:14 AM
Ya I am waiting for them to slow down the USO to suit Nadal's game more. I have never played tennis on grass but man those decoturf courts at the uso are fast. Faster than any other hardcourt I have played on.

decoturf is like the last bastion of good court speed. let's hope it stays so =)

GlennMirnyi
02-13-2009, 05:17 AM
Only for samprastards. Which granted, is not a bad tard to be, but still purely fantasy.

Nadal and Agassi are utterly incomparable. Please don't make me laugh and compare what Nadal can do on the run versus what Agassi can do on the run. Agassi on the run against Sampras was 99% point loss, what Nadal does on the run is the stuff of legends. Likewise, Nadal is far mentally tougher, he has the exact same Sampras will to win that you spoke of.. this is not to mention his laser-like passes. What would happen (on any surface other than clay) is not really known.. although for sure I like Sampras on 90's grass and of course on our precious, still preserved decoturf. :)

No it's not. How many times haven't you seen Nadull look completely clueless against a good server? He can't return, it's simple - especially against net-players.

I could digress a lot here, but Sampras could serve much better, volleyed better - wouldn't give many opportunities for shots on the run - and would go to the net at better moments too.

Federer gets passed so easily because basically he goes to the net at the worst possible moments against Nadull - part of his lack of mental strength and fear of Nadull.

Agassi had a much better sense of placement on court - played closer to the baseline. If he couldn't manage Sampras, Nadull wouldn't.

habibko
02-13-2009, 05:35 AM
No it's not. How many times haven't you seen Nadull look completely clueless against a good server? He can't return, it's simple - especially against net-players.

I could digress a lot here, but Sampras could serve much better, volleyed better - wouldn't give many opportunities for shots on the run - and would go to the net at better moments too.

Federer gets passed so easily because basically he goes to the net at the worst possible moments against Nadull - part of his lack of mental strength and fear of Nadull.

Agassi had a much better sense of placement on court - played closer to the baseline. If he couldn't manage Sampras, Nadull wouldn't.

he should play an exho with Nadal instead of Haas/Blake/Federer, even though he isn't the real Sampras now he still got the serve, we will get an idea how they matchup :cool:

Macbrother
02-13-2009, 05:38 AM
No it's not. How many times haven't you seen Nadull look completely clueless against a good server? He can't return, it's simple - especially against net-players.

Not very often lately. Even if so, you aren't going to serve 80% every match and even if you do there are still opportunities.


I could digress a lot here, but Sampras could serve much better, volleyed better - wouldn't give many opportunities for shots on the run - and would go to the net at better moments too.

Federer gets passed so easily because basically he goes to the net at the worst possible moments against Nadull - part of his lack of mental strength and fear of Nadull.

There's absolutely no question Sampras' was better in the forecourt in just about every way you can think of compared to Federer; awareness, sense, volleys, anticipation, but is that enough? Nadal is faster, can get to more balls, and most importantly, can do much, much more with it once he gets there. If even Agassi was able to make a pass once in a while what do you think Nadal will do? Also stop living in '05. Nadal does step inside the baseline every once in a while now you know.

Nadal delivers a more vicious, consistant brand of topspin (aided by technology of course) than anyone in history. He would relentlessly attack Sampras' backhand in much the same way he does Federer -- how Sampras would cope, don't really know. All this is perhaps secondary however to Nadal's toughness which yes rivals even the great Sampras. You can at least give him that.

Xristos
02-13-2009, 06:00 AM
Fantastic thread right here.

leng jai
02-13-2009, 06:02 AM
Fantastic thread right here.

It almost rivals your fantastic threds.

Kalinikos
02-13-2009, 07:18 AM
I never thought people would start mentioning Nadal vs Sampras. I got so used to the endless arguements of Sampras vs. Federer. Its a good change and I honestly have to go with pistol hes just the best.

Seneca
02-13-2009, 08:21 AM
It's insane how good matches these late career Sampras-Agassi slugfests were. AO 2000 & 2001 (did they actually meet both years?), USO 2001 & 2002. Unlike Nadal-Federer that I'm always looking forward to but more often than not just ends in disappointment.

I've seen Henri Kontinen in the junior final of Wimbledon 2008 serve and volley on 1st and 2nd serve and I was thrilled, if he happens to become successful one day then we could see more of this style with the upcoming juniors, I just wish to see more contrast of styles on tour.
Yeah, Kontinen's an interesting guy. I work in Finland and this guy has some thrilling all-court potential that he displays in occasional tournaments here. Hope he does well and recovers fully from his injury.


For me Sampras was always a player with amazing 1st and 2nd serve (it's important to underline since Karlovic's 2nd serve for example is pathetic in comparison to Sampras' one)
I'm of the opinion that Sampras' second serve is the best individual shot in history of tennis. Creating an ideal player, that's where I'd start.

crude oil
02-13-2009, 08:25 AM
someone do some actual research and find out how many pts he won his second serve in terms of %

...the answer...is surprising.

dont believe the hype.