Fed/Nadal starting to remind me of Graf/Seles [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Fed/Nadal starting to remind me of Graf/Seles

Tennis Fool
02-02-2009, 12:51 AM
There are major differences between these two rivalries, but it's interesting to note that Graf was dominating for years, possibly to become the best of all time, then Seles, a few years younger, appeared on the scene.

Seles began her own domination, winning 3 of the four slams, including the French three times in a row, and took over the No. 1 position from Graf, who became No. 2. At the AO 1993, Seles beat Graf 36 63 62.

Of course, Seles never dominated Graf and never could figure out Wimbledon, but I think Fed/Nadal reflects this rivalry more than any other in recent history.

Forehander
02-02-2009, 12:58 AM
You missed something: Monica Seles was also a left hander O_o

GugaF1
02-02-2009, 01:02 AM
very good pick up, just when I thought we were all out of Federer Nadal analogies. And you are quite correct, Seles was considered a force of Nature, mentally rock solid and a more forcefull rather than artistic game, quite similar to Nadal.

And likewise, Graf was considered the one with the more plesant, flexible game, but who was also losing ground to the young force of nature seles. Similarity in many ways...

NicolasKiefer44
02-02-2009, 01:03 AM
Nadal and Monica both are loud. :)

steffilover
02-02-2009, 01:03 AM
Big difference (when you cast Graf as Federer), that Graf ended up leading that H2H 10-5...:)

Tennis Fool
02-02-2009, 01:10 AM
Big difference (when you cast Graf as Federer), that Graf ended up leading that H2H 10-5...:)

Yeah, that's why I said Seles never dominated Graf :lol:

However, Graf at that time was starting to fall to other players (Arantxa, Gabriela) and that didn't help matters, such as Federer falling to Nole, Andy Murray doesn't help matters.

luie
02-02-2009, 01:12 AM
Both graf & federer had the FH as their foremost weapon.

buddyholly
02-02-2009, 02:00 AM
So the best way for Roger to get those records he so badly wants is to have some Swiss maniac stab Rafa in the back?

thrust
02-02-2009, 02:31 AM
Big difference (when you cast Graf as Federer), that Graf ended up leading that H2H 10-5...:)

True, but in Slam finals before the stabbing Seles led 3-1. Monica was totally dominating the Slams, except for Wimbledon.

Hokit
02-02-2009, 03:23 AM
Big difference (when you cast Graf as Federer), that Graf ended up leading that H2H 10-5...:)

That, of course, was all thanks to a crazed fan and a large boning knife that left Seles out of action for over two years.

Marc23
02-02-2009, 03:47 AM
Graf clearly ended as best singles player in open era...too much for Federer and Nadal...Graf overall 22 slams compared to Federer+Nadal together still trailing at 21...

Marc23
02-02-2009, 03:48 AM
Even when Seles was number 1 Graf had h2h in her favour 3;2...

Stefwhit
02-02-2009, 04:47 AM
I can totally understand the temptation to want to draw comparisons and you've pointed out some good ones. On the surface it makes sense but when you start to disect it you also find way too many differences- important differences.

One difference is that Monica never managed to beat Graf on any other surface other than clay and rebound ace- not once did she ever beat Graf on a traditional hard court, indoors, or on grass. On the other hand, Graf has beaten Seles on all surfaces (never at Oz though). This example kinda reverses the Nadal-Fed trend where Nadal seems to be able to get the upper hand against Fed regardless of surface.

azinna
02-02-2009, 04:49 AM
Pretty insightful comparison. There was also a bit of a mental issue for Graf; it was clear she really wasn't that sure about what to do. Faster surfaces, like grass, made things very clear for her (a difference from Federer). But on clay and slower hard courts, you saw her struggling to construct and stick with a game plan to counter this new challenge.

She would later develop the tools, strategy and confidence to neutralize Seles. But that, unfortunately, was partly due to the two-year breathing room given to her by a fan.

Kolya
02-02-2009, 05:08 AM
Are you gonna stab Nadal? :p

jenanun
02-02-2009, 07:48 AM
should warn nadal not to play in basel then....

harleyquin
02-02-2009, 09:33 AM
30 april 1993: the day that changed tennis. Seles at 19(!) had won 8 slams and 3 Masters, 1 RG and the Master in 1990, 3 slams and the Master in 1991 (she skipped Wimbledon), 3 slams and the Master (she lost only in the final in Wimbledon) in 1992, in 1993 she won the AO before the german maniac stabbed her. Nobody knows what this girl would have achieved, many think this was only the start to what could have been the greatest carreer in the history of the sport. The maniac who stabbed her didn't spend a single day in prison and Seles lost her number 1 position after the stabbing as if she had chosen not to play (Graf and the other top players voted to take this decision). Graf, who was nearly 6 years older than Seles, had won 11 slams when Seles was stabbed, only 2 in the period AO 1991-AO 1993, suddenly won 6 slams in 1993-1994 with Seles out of the competition and never spent a word for the young rival. Seles was serbian and those were the days of the war in the ex Yugoslavia. Many (Gianni Clerici and Bud Collins among the others ) suspect that what happened was decided by politics: nobody would want a serbian number 1 in the sport during the war. Tennis went on as if Seles had never existed. Strangely enough Seles was welcomed back in the sport only after she had become an american citizen. Seles came back in 1995, lost in the finals of the US open to Graf (Seles served an ace in the set point of the first set's tie break but the ball was called out and she lost the set, won the second set 6 0, only to lose in the third set, of course tired as a player forced out of the game for 27 months could have been ), Seles went on to win AO 1996 but she never was the same player again.
She had lost the determination, the ferocious attention, the steely will and , in the end, the love for the game (who can blame her for that?). She's still remembered as one the GOATS for what she has achieved till the age of 19 and 1 month! It's incredible! She never complained about what happened to her; during the second part of her carreer, she was always gracious and smiling even when losing. The influence she's had over the players we now know (the Williams in particular) is under our eyes.
The h2hs count nothing if you consider Seles faced Graf mostly when she was only 15-16-17-18 yo, anyway she was 3-1 in slam finals. This was all so unfair.
Yes Nadal reminds me of Seles for the extraordinary way they have to stay on the court, to read the match, to always do the right thing at the right moment, and for the kindness of their nature out of the court, but if you take a look on YOUTUBE at the matches of Seles in 1990-1993, you realise she was much more aggressive than Nadal, and then you realise how thin she was and how hard she hit the ball with so little amount of UE though always aiming for the lines.
I once rooted for Seles and now I root for Nadal, I hope he can achieve what Seles unfairly could not achieve.

duong
02-02-2009, 12:32 PM
I can totally understand the temptation to want to draw comparisons and you've pointed out some good ones. On the surface it makes sense but when you start to disect it you also find way too many differences- important differences.

One difference is that Monica never managed to beat Graf on any other surface other than clay and rebound ace- not once did she ever beat Graf on a traditional hard court, indoors, or on grass. On the other hand, Graf has beaten Seles on all surfaces (never at Oz though). This example kinda reverses the Nadal-Fed trend where Nadal seems to be able to get the upper hand against Fed regardless of surface.

Because all of you are taking statistics when Seles was a very young girl, and then after being snabbed.

But Seles was clearly dominating Graf.

Saying all these things about Graf's titles is quite undecent if you consider this owes so much to a criminal.

Stefwhit
02-02-2009, 12:48 PM
Because all of you are taking statistics when Seles was a very young girl, and then after being snabbed.

But Seles was clearly dominating Graf.

Saying all these things about Graf's titles is quite undecent if you consider this owes so much to a criminal.Two things, first off Seles NEVER dominated Graf, and secondly Steffi's legacy had already been firmly cemented even before Seles hit the scene. So no, Steffi doesn't owe anything to that madman, she owes all the accolades to her skill, talent, and hard work.

Let's take a look during Monica's most dominating seasons. In 1990 Monica won all their encounters (two), in 1991 Steffi won all of their encounters (two), and in 1993 they only played once in January and Monica won. Please, I beg you to explain to me how does this equal domination?

Marc23
02-02-2009, 01:30 PM
Even before Seles Graf won already everything(Golden Slam) being a teenager while Seles didn't...not gold and not Wimbledon..so...

azinna
02-02-2009, 01:45 PM
Yes, the only thing clear about the Graf-Seles rivalry is that it's a pity they didn't get to play it out. There was no domination, and there's no way of knowing how many slams either would've won in the other's presence. Either player could have pulled a Borg, Austin, Wilander, Courier, Hingis, Sampras, Serena, Henin....

Come to think of it: making comparisons with the Graf/Seles rivalry just makes me more appreciative of Nadal/Federer being played out, despite all that could happen to cut it short.

thrust
02-02-2009, 02:13 PM
Yes, the only thing clear about the Graf-Seles rivalry is that it's a pity they didn't get to play it out. There was no domination, and there's no way of knowing how many slams either would've won in the other's presence. Either player could have pulled a Borg, Austin, Wilander, Courier, Hingis, Sampras, Serena, Henin....

Come to think of it: making comparisons with the Graf/Seles rivalry just makes me more appreciative of Nadal/Federer being played out, despite all that could happen to cut it short.

Think of how many more slams Evert would have had won if there was no Navratilova, her only equal rival at the time. The same is true of Agassi VS Sampras, Roger VS Nadal. When Seles was stabbed Graf lost her only equal rival capable of winning Slams and other important tournaments. The stabbing of Seles was probably the greatest tragedy in women's tennis. I agree with Bud Collins that politics probably contributed to the shabby treatment Monica received from the WTA and its players.

Marc23
02-03-2009, 03:59 PM
True...but I don't see any similarities except in the game of Graf/Federer...Graf had always been up in h2h against Seles ending up 10:5 while Nadal(who you here compare with Seles) now has 13:6 against Federer...Graf won everything minimum 4 times(plus OI Games in Los Angeles and Seoul) unlike Federer,Nadal or Seles...who are lacking one or two things...closest is Nadal in terms of winning almost everything(he just needs US Open)...

Serenidad
02-03-2009, 04:20 PM
No one talks about the similarities in the way Seles played Graf. Send everything to the backhand until you get an error/short ball and take it up the line for the winner.

Of course, Seles was no pusher and was more aggressive on serve return than Nadal is against Graf but in essence Seles pounded Steffi's BH with forceful shots until it caved.

Marc23
02-03-2009, 04:28 PM
True,that's why their matches were always interesting just like Nadal against Federer...

MalwareDie
02-03-2009, 04:30 PM
True,that's why their matches were always interesting just like Nadal against Federer...

Nadal-Federer matches are some of the worst matches ever. They are just Federer bending over for Nadal.

Andre♥
02-03-2009, 04:30 PM
Prepare your knifes, Federer fans! :lol:

Marc23
02-03-2009, 04:37 PM
Nadal-Federer matches are some of the worst matches ever. They are just Federer bending over for Nadal.

Maybe worst for you,but there is always drama when they play...Maybe Federer was bending over Nadal,but Graf wasn't bending over Seles...that is the difference!

duong
02-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Maybe Federer was bending over Nadal,but Graf wasn't bending over Seles...that is the difference!

In that issue, it was exactly the same.

When Graf played against Seles, she tried to make winners with huge forehands, but it came back and came back.

And Seles was shouting and shouting.

And there was a huger shout ... and it was over.

Actually another quite similarity between Seles and Nadal was the force of the "sound" when they play :explode:

Comparing to the sound of their sex opponents of course ... usually you have to decrease the sound when you go from a men's match to a women's :lol:

Jōris
02-03-2009, 05:00 PM
Graf has a big nose, Seles has a huge butt - I see the similarity now too.

Manila ESQ
02-03-2009, 05:06 PM
I agree with the TS. The Graf-Seles rivalry is probably the closest to the Federer-Nadal rivalry. Of course, there would be differences, but it was not the point of this thread to say that these rivalries are completely the same.

Btw, who can we consider as Hingis' main rival? Was it Venus?

duong
02-03-2009, 05:19 PM
Another huge common point which hasn't been quoted is the similarity between the exchanges.

First Graf had a better serve and could make more points with that.

Then Graf tried to make huge forehands to make winners
... but Seles picked back everything who knows how
... and put the exchange back to Graf's backhand where she was totally neutralized.

Seles had as good a backhand and a forehand, which was completely opposite to Graf.

Then the exchange was like that : huge forehand to try a winner by Graf, go back to the backhand, neutralization.

It was very long exchanges, totally exhausting for the spectator, several times in an exchange you thought Seles would be beaten but she caught the ball back

... and then, as I told you, huge shout, extremely shrill
... and the point was over : winner for Seles or Graf taking it back into the net.

Also the most similar to the Nadal-Federer exchanges.

duong
02-03-2009, 05:22 PM
And, outside of the court, Seles was very charming, quite child-looking, and you would have never said she could be so violent :eek: ... but also very mature in her mind
... exactly like Nadal !

duong
02-03-2009, 05:39 PM
I don't know if somebody has said it, but there's another common point : Seles was ambidextrous, exactly like Nadal.

fast_clay
02-03-2009, 05:53 PM
the comparison is void because graf had a better backhand than federer...

duong
02-03-2009, 06:01 PM
the comparison is void because graf had a better backhand than federer...

Wrong !

Graf had almost ONLY a sliced backhand, and had a lot of difficulty to improve her lifted backhand.

And Seles totally neutralized her on that shot.

Another common point : I remember that the opposition between Graf's and Seles's fans was very similar.
Elegance and style against bravery and youth ...

And I remember that we had the same impressions that history was under-making like now.

Graf was on her way to become the "best player ever" before Seles,
but the young Serbian girl was destroying that scheme and could impose HERSELF as the best player in history.

We nearly had the impression that it might be the two best players in history, quite like now.

thegreendestiny
02-03-2009, 07:28 PM
Yes Nadal reminds me of Seles for the extraordinary way they have to stay on the court, to read the match, to always do the right thing at the right moment, and for the kindness of their nature out of the court, but if you take a look on YOUTUBE at the matches of Seles in 1990-1993, you realise she was much more aggressive than Nadal, and then you realise how thin she was and how hard she hit the ball with so little amount of UE though always aiming for the lines.
I once rooted for Seles and now I root for Nadal, I hope he can achieve what Seles unfairly could not achieve.

:worship:

I hope Nadal never plays in Basel. :scared:

Raquel
02-03-2009, 07:57 PM
Yeah, that's why I said Seles never dominated Graf :lol:

However, Graf at that time was starting to fall to other players (Arantxa, Gabriela) and that didn't help matters, such as Federer falling to Nole, Andy Murray doesn't help matters.I can definitely see the likeness in comparison ;) Rafael absolutely has that same hardcore intensity an early Monica had. Nadal is probably more like Arantxa in many ways though. Arantxa was always my favourite during this time, which is probably why I have a lot admiration for Nadal, despite being a big Roger fan. I just hope that if Federer = Graf and Nadal = Seles, that Andy Murray = Arantxa and grabs a few Slams in among it all ;)

Manila ESQ
02-03-2009, 08:01 PM
the comparison is void because graf had a better backhand than federer...

well, it's not a question of who has the better backhand. the point was both roger and steffi have weaker bachkands compared to their forehands, and that seles and rafa both tried to exploit this weakness.

jcadam2003
02-03-2009, 08:12 PM
Two things, first off Seles NEVER dominated Graf, and secondly Steffi's legacy had already been firmly cemented even before Seles hit the scene. So no, Steffi doesn't owe anything to that madman, she owes all the accolades to her skill, talent, and hard work.

Let's take a look during Monica's most dominating seasons. In 1990 Monica won all their encounters (two), in 1991 Steffi won all of their encounters (two), and in 1993 they only played once in January and Monica won. Please, I beg you to explain to me how does this equal domination?

Never in the history of women's tennis has a head to head record been so misleading than the Seles / Graf head to head. Between June 1990 and January 1993 she won 8 grand slams and only lost a few matches per year. The reason why she didn't have more victories over Graf was that Graf wasn't holding up her end of the bargain and making the finals to play Seles (Oz 91 and 92, Roland Garros 91, US Open 91 and 92). If Monica was not utterly dominating all of women's tennis, including Graf, then she sure fooled the hell out of Gunther Parsche (the Graf fan that stabbed her in April 1993). Also, if you take a look at a video press conference after losing again to Seles at the 1993 Australian Open, she was a complete mess, very close to admiting that she could no longer compete with the number one player in the world that was 5 years her junior. Seles was just getting better and better and it was very likely that she would have won the Grand Slams that year.

The Seles stabbing was one of the greatest tragedies in Sport. Moncia could have had 20 grand slams before she retired.

Even in the absence of Seles, Aranxta Sanchez Vicario managed to win Roland Garros and the US Open in 2004 and took the number one ranking from Graf for a short period. If Aranxta managed to beat her several times in 1994, you can imagine the damage that Seles would have inflicted on Graf that same year had she never been stabbed. Seles dominated everyone including Graf in the early 90s!

Marc23
02-03-2009, 08:12 PM
Graf also had perfect slice backhand which went very low and hard for another player to cope with...her drive backhand was also very good,specially when someone attacked her,but she didn't use it that much just to be remembered...there are a lot of points won by her drive backhand on youtube!

Seles had both good wings,forehand and backhand,but her main problem against Graf was that she was not in the best of shape as Graf was...and Graf's slice was giving her a lot of problems...

Unlike Federer and Nadal...I wouldn't compare Nadal to Arantxa because Nadal is much more agressive then her...

Marc23
02-03-2009, 08:15 PM
Never in the history of women's tennis has a head to head record been so misleading than the Seles / Graf head to head. Between June 1990 and January 1993 she won 8 grand slams and only lost a few matches per year. The reason why she didn't have more victories over Graf was that Graf wasn't holding up her end of the bargain and making the finals to play Seles (Oz 91 and 92, Roland Garros 91, US Open 91 and 92). If Monica was not utterly dominating all of women's tennis, including Graf, then she sure fooled the hell out of Gunther Parsche (the Graf fan that stabbed her in April 1993). Also, if you take a look at a video press conference after losing again to Seles at the 1993 Australian Open, she was a complete mess, very close to admiting that she could no longer compete with the number one player in the world that was 5 years her junior. Seles was just getting better and better and it was very likely that she would have won the Grand Slams that year.

The Seles stabbing was one of the greatest tragedies in Sport. Moncia could have had 20 grand slams before she retired.

Even in the absence of Seles, Aranxta Sanchez Vicario managed to win Roland Garros and the US Open in 2004 and took the number one ranking from Graf for a short period. If Aranxta managed to beat her several times in 1994, you can imagine the damage that Seles would have inflicted on Graf that same year had she never been stabbed. Seles dominated everyone including Graf in the early 90s!

She was a total mess,right?That's why she was leading their H2H when Seles was number 1 in the world...during Seles's dominance and reign Graf was leading 3:2 in H2H,so...

maki925
02-03-2009, 08:19 PM
No way!C'mon,like anyone will ewer stab Fed or Nadal on court,you can't compare this whit Monika and Graf.

meihaditalab
02-03-2009, 08:43 PM
not really...

Marc23
02-03-2009, 11:05 PM
There is just comparation in rivalry...not much else...

rafa_maniac
02-04-2009, 06:58 AM
I find it a bit disgusting to be honest that alot of people in this thread are throwing around the notion of a crazed Federer fan stabbing Nadal as if it were a big joke. That was a horrible, horrible incident in sport and one I hope never to see repeated.

MariaV
02-04-2009, 09:45 AM
I find it a bit disgusting to be honest that alot of people in this thread are throwing around the notion of a crazed Federer fan stabbing Nadal as if it were a big joke. That was a horrible, horrible incident in sport and one I hope never to see repeated.

Exactly what I wanted to say. This is not somehing to joke about.

duong
02-04-2009, 10:16 AM
Graf also had perfect slice backhand which went very low and hard for another player to cope with...her drive backhand was also very good,specially when someone attacked her,but she didn't use it that much just to be remembered...there are a lot of points won by her drive backhand on youtube!

Seles had both good wings,forehand and backhand,but her main problem against Graf was that she was not in the best of shape as Graf was...and Graf's slice was giving her a lot of problems...

Unlike Federer and Nadal...

From all of your comments, you clearly have not watched tennis much during the period before the stabbing, maybe too young.

Graf's drive backhand was totally unnatural, and she needed some time to develop that shot.

In the beginning, she ALMOST ONLY had a sliced backhand ... and clearly Seles neutralized her because of that.

duong
02-04-2009, 10:19 AM
I find it a bit disgusting to be honest that alot of people in this thread are throwing around the notion of a crazed Federer fan stabbing Nadal as if it were a big joke. That was a horrible, horrible incident in sport and one I hope never to see repeated.

I totally agree, but this is not definitely the main point if you look at the beginning of the thread and at the arguments.

It's just that when you speak about Graf/Seles rivalry, you can just not ignore the way it ended.

As somebody said, Nadal has the chance to achieve what Seles couldn't achieve.

the graduate
02-04-2009, 10:33 AM
does this mean a fedtard is going to hurt Rafa...boy thats scary stuff:sad:

duong
02-04-2009, 10:36 AM
does this mean a fedtard is going to hurt Rafa...boy thats scary stuff:sad:

Don't have too much imagination :hug: : this is THE MAJOR DIFFERENCE.

Matt01
02-04-2009, 01:15 PM
She was a total mess,right?That's why she was leading their H2H when Seles was number 1 in the world...during Seles's dominance and reign Graf was leading 3:2 in H2H,so...


:rolleyes: From 1990 (the year Seles started to dominate) till the stabbing the 2 players met in 4 Slam finals and Graf won only once (on grass). MM tourneys are hardly relvant here.

Doggy
02-04-2009, 01:15 PM
Even when Seles was number 1 Graf had h2h in her favour 3;2...

I hate to break it to you, but no matter what you say, you will never convince anyone truly that Seles was not better than Graf. Inside everyone, they know had if it not been that stabbing, Graf would for sure not get all 22 GS.

duong
02-04-2009, 02:36 PM
And when Seles was stabbed, she was only 19 and a half years old.

Marc23
02-04-2009, 03:44 PM
:rolleyes: From 1990 (the year Seles started to dominate) till the stabbing the 2 players met in 4 Slam finals and Graf won only once (on grass). MM tourneys are hardly relvant here.

Even before that Graf until 19 years won everything unlike Seles and even in head to head during Seles's reign Graf had the edge over Seles,so...if yo compare Nadal and Federer you also look their H2H and much of that is clear!

harleyquin
02-04-2009, 05:27 PM
Fact is in the period AO 1991- AO 1993, OUT OF 9 Slams, Seles won 7 and Graf 2. After the stabbing, with the number 1 player of the world Seles out of competition, suddenly, Graf won the remaining 3 Slams in 1993! What a coincidence!

duong
02-04-2009, 05:36 PM
Even before that Graf until 19 years won everything unlike Seles and even in head to head during Seles's reign Graf had the edge over Seles,so...if yo compare Nadal and Federer you also look their H2H and much of that is clear!

Seles also won everything until 19 ...

and your h2h is a total bullshit : you include matches in small clay tournaments in 1991, but not the ones in 1990 including the final of the French open :lol:

when you want to show something, you are very strong :haha:

Everybody who has really lived that period knows that your statistical "demonstration" is a total bullshit.

Dougie
02-04-2009, 05:40 PM
From all of your comments, you clearly have not watched tennis much during the period before the stabbing, maybe too young.

Graf's drive backhand was totally unnatural, and she needed some time to develop that shot.

In the beginning, she ALMOST ONLY had a sliced backhand ... and clearly Seles neutralized her because of that.

I donīt think it was only because of that. Granted, Graf used almost only slice, I remember her using drive only when she had to pass, but the fact is her slice was really good. It was sharp, crisp and penetrating, and she could open up the court with it, it was nothing like a defensive shot. It was actually more offensive than many of her contemporaries topspin drives.
So I donīt think Seles neutralized her just because of that. Just like with Rafa and Fed, it was probably more of a mental issue, and two careers going in slightly different directions.

duong
02-04-2009, 05:49 PM
I donīt think it was only because of that. Granted, Graf used almost only slice, I remember her using drive only when she had to pass, but the fact is her slice was really good. It was sharp, crisp and penetrating, and she could open up the court with it, it was nothing like a defensive shot. It was actually more offensive than many of her contemporaries topspin drives.
So I donīt think Seles neutralized her just because of that. Just like with Rafa and Fed, it was probably more of a mental issue, and two careers going in slightly different directions.

You are right about the quality of Graf's sliced backhand,

but I remember that when Graf managed to put Seles in difficulty with her powerful forehand, Seles brought the game back to her backhand, and then the game was slowed down, and she could control the exchange again.

Graf had a good sliced backhand but was more offensive and dangerous with her forehand ... a little bit like Federer actually.

Marc23
02-05-2009, 01:04 AM
Good point,but from my view Seles was more agressive player than Nadal today is...not that I say that Nadal is not agressive just saying that Seles was agresive from both sides...

I remember when she came back in 1995 she had more power than ever,just her fitness was not that good...

duong
02-05-2009, 08:07 AM
Good point,but from my view Seles was more agressive player than Nadal today is...not that I say that Nadal is not agressive just saying that Seles was agresive from both sides...

I remember when she came back in 1995 she had more power than ever,just her fitness was not that good...

She didn't have that fury anymore which Nadal still has.

Nadal is a fury like her, and now is aggressive from both sides.

FairWeatherFan
02-05-2009, 08:12 AM
Disagree, Graf/Seles was actually entertaining to watch.

Marc23
02-05-2009, 11:30 PM
Also Nadal against Federer... ;-)

Stephan
02-05-2009, 11:37 PM
WIMBLEDON ORGANISERS TO SPEED UP THE GRASS!

TO SPEED UP THE GRASS WIMBLEDON ORGANISERS HAVE TO USE
FEMALE TOP MODELS (LIKE IN SPAIN OPEN) INSTEAD OF BOYS ;)

Stefwhit
02-06-2009, 12:54 AM
I hate to break it to you, but no matter what you say, you will never convince anyone truly that Seles was not better than Graf. Inside everyone, they know had if it not been that stabbing, Graf would for sure not get all 22 GS.
-At the time of the stabbing Graf was close to taking over the number one ranking from Seles. Assuming that Monica would have won the event she was stabbed at, she would have also had to surpass Steffi Graf's performance at the French Open, or hope Steffi lost before she did, to maintain her No. 1 ranking.

-During the time Seles was out, Graf won 6 Grandslams but she missed 13 from injury. Steffi's biggest foe wasn't Seles, it was her injuries!

-In Steffi's last year on tour she managed to win her last slam defeating the No.1 (Hingis), No.2 (Davenport), and No.3 (Seles) player in the world and became one of the lowest seeds to ever win the French. At the age of 30 Steffi was far from her best at that point in time and let's not forget she was competing against the likes of Venus, Serena, Hingis, Davenport, and even Clijsters.

-Steffi turned pro and entered the tour when she was 13 and retired when she was 29- that's a 16 year career. Steffi dominated or at least held her own against players from three generations.

* Navratilova generation: she was 1-1 against Tracy Austin, 8-6 edge over Chris Evert, and 9-9 against Martina
* Steff-Monica generation: she has a winning record against everyone including Seles
* Hingis-Davenport generation: she was 7-2 over Hingis, 3-2 edge over Venus, 1-1 with Serena, 8-5 edge over Davenport, 1-0 edge over Mauresmo, 1-0 over Kim Clijsters

Monica had an abismal record against both Davenport, Hingis, and Venus- further proof she was better than Steffi... ;)

--If you take Graf's record and cut out those years where Seles was out (1993 french-1995 wimbledon) Steffi is still left with 16 grandslam titles and a record that would still make her arguably one of the greatest players of all time!

--Steffi won the Golden Grand Slam, became number one, and beat all the best players in the world, and this was all before Monica even hit the scene. Steffi's place amongst the tennis greats had already been cemented- everything else was just icing on the cake.

-I have a question about complaints about the weak level of competition during Steffi's second reign as number. If the competition was really as weak as everyone says, then why is it why is it so impressive that Seles dominated these same players in the early 90's to win all her slams? I'm not blaming Seles for Steffi often losing early and not making the finals, but if we take something away from Stefi's wins (because Seles wasn't there) then we should do the same each time Monica won something and didn't have to face her biggest rival, Steffi.

Stefwhit
02-06-2009, 12:55 AM
"Steffi Graf is the greatest singles player of all time." -Billie Jean King

"When someone asks me who was the greatest player I've ever seen in the last 25 years, I'd say Steffi Graf - with no hesitation," - Chris Evert

"The mental toughness puts her right up there with the Michael Jordan's and the Wayne Gretzkys and the John Elways....I would come right out and say she's the greatest ever"- Tracy Austin

"I think Steffi Graf's game is perfect. She's the best all-around player of all-time regardless of surface" - Martina Navratilova

When asked about naming the all time top five Martina Navratilova replied by saying, "I'm not going to give the order because that's impossible. Without the [1993] stabbing, Monica Seles would definitely be up there. But Monica doesn't have the numbers, unfortunately. She had the talent for it, but it was taken away. That being said, I have to say Steffi, Billie Jean [King], Margaret Court, Chris Everet, and Suzanne Lenglen. -Martina Navratilova

duong
02-06-2009, 12:59 AM
--If you take Graf's record and cut out those years where Seles was out (1993 french-1995 wimbledon) Steffi is still left with 16 grandslam titles and a record that would still make her arguably one of the greatest players of all time!

--Steffi won the Golden Grand Slam, became number one, and beat all the best players in the world, and this was all before Monica even hit the scene. Steffi's place amongst the tennis greats had already been cemented- everything else was just icing on the cake.

-I have a question about complaints about the weak level of competition during Steffi's second reign as number. If the competition was really as weak as everyone says, then why is it why is it so impressive that Seles dominated these same players in the early 90's to win all her slams? I'm not blaming Seles for Steffi often losing early and not making the finals, but if we take something away from Stefi's wins (because Seles wasn't there) then we should do the same each time Monica won something and didn't have to face her biggest rival, Steffi.

All of this is the same as Federer.

Matt01
02-06-2009, 02:07 AM
All of this is the same as Federer.


Federer's Golden Slam will go down in the history books :rocker2:

duong
02-06-2009, 02:18 AM
Federer's Golden Slam will go down in the history books :rocker2:

:D

l_mac
02-06-2009, 02:30 AM
:lol:

Hokit
10-07-2009, 03:50 PM
I'll be going off-topic here from the Fed/Nadal part of the issue :o

-At the time of the stabbing Graf was close to taking over the number one ranking from Seles. Assuming that Monica would have won the event she was stabbed at, she would have also had to surpass Steffi Graf's performance at the French Open, or hope Steffi lost before she did, to maintain her No. 1 ranking.

Given Monica's form in 1993, it was likely that she would've ended the season as the number one player. She was just 19 years old - thus at a physical peak - and had lost only one match prior to Hamburg. Also, she had a 2-1 advantage against Steffi in their French Open head-to-head, which would've given her a mental edge if they had played against each other in Paris that year.

-During the time Seles was out, Graf won 6 Grandslams but she missed 13 from injury. Steffi's biggest foe wasn't Seles, it was her injuries!

True, I remember Steffi had a lot of problems with her knees, especially in the latter part of her career. Some of it probably came from having to bend down so often to execute those slices ...

-I have a question about complaints about the weak level of competition during Steffi's second reign as number. If the competition was really as weak as everyone says, then why is it why is it so impressive that Seles dominated these same players in the early 90's to win all her slams? I'm not blaming Seles for Steffi often losing early and not making the finals, but if we take something away from Stefi's wins (because Seles wasn't there) then we should do the same each time Monica won something and didn't have to face her biggest rival, Steffi.

It's hard to ignore the benefits Steffi gained from Monica's absence, the most significant of them being the six of the eleven Slam victories that occured while Monica was sidelined. While Steffi can only beat whoever's across the net, Monica was the only player who could consistently trouble her where it counts the most (i.e. at the Slams). It's very telling that prior to the stabbing, they were tied three a piece in their Slam encounters, yet two of those in Steffi's favour came from Monica's first year on the professional circuit.

So while there were other rivals, Monica was the only one who consitently foiled Steffi's paths to Grand Slam glory. And it's this status that made the effect of Monica's absence so wide reaching and controversial. Since she was Steffi's chief rival, having her out of the picture dramatically tipped the balance of power as they were the sport's superpowers. As you pointed out, both had dominating head-to-head records against other rivals in that period, which is in fact futher proof of Monica's absence being so glaring since no one other than her could effectively challenge Steffi.

Furthermore, because the disparity between the results of Monica's pre- and post- stabbing career is so profound, it's hard to ignore the effect that the incident had on her career and Steffi's. On Monica's side, it was her form that suffered since she had lost an opportunity of two years to either keep up or surpass Steffi. Prior to the stabbing she had eight Slams compared to Steffi's eleven and had trailed only 4-6 in their H2H (although three of Steffi's wins were from Monica's freshman year). After the stabbing, Graf had won another eleven Slams (while Monica could only manage one) and had extended her head-to-head lead by 4-1. Given Monica's form in 1993 and Steffi's form in 1994, chances were Monica would've remained slightly ahead in at least those two years.

Monica had an abismal record against both Davenport, Hingis, and Venus- further proof she was better than Steffi... ;)

Keeping in mind, of course, that Monica post-1993 was a vastly different player, especially where her fitness was concerned.

--If you take Graf's record and cut out those years where Seles was out (1993 french-1995 wimbledon) Steffi is still left with 16 grandslam titles and a record that would still make her arguably one of the greatest players of all time!

--Steffi won the Golden Grand Slam, became number one, and beat all the best players in the world, and this was all before Monica even hit the scene. Steffi's place amongst the tennis greats had already been cemented- everything else was just icing on the cake.

Steffi is undoubtedly one of the game's greatest, especially since she's the only person to have achieved a Golden Slam :worship: I admire her for her strong work ethic, which played a big part in her success. Plus there were personal challenges in her life that she overcame, the most prominent being the tax fraud debacle that her father was caught up in. So it's wrong to assume that her achievements came without struggles.

I'm not disputing Steffi's status and I agree that she is to be regarded as a greater athlete that Monica. But again, as I've been trying to point out, there'll always be an asterik next her achievements (or at least some of them) because they came at the expense of a rival under tragic circumstances. For the record, I think that even if the stabbing hadn't occurred, chances were Steffi would've ended her career with more Slams than Monica, although the difference would've been much closer.

Lleyton_
10-07-2009, 04:19 PM
Seles dethroned Graf in her prime,right in the middle of her reign. It took Nadal three years to finally become no.1.

SetSampras
10-07-2009, 07:24 PM
Graf even in her waning year kept the h2h close.. Unlike Fed and Nadal.. Nadal has beaten Fed on hard, grass, and clay in slam events and is still ip 13-7 I believe

Vida
10-07-2009, 09:17 PM
surprisingly solid thread.

8pNADAL
10-07-2009, 11:10 PM
but nadal will likely finish 09 as number1 ranked and will gain massive points in next years roland garros and wimbledon youd have to think, so thatd make it 3 straight years as year-end number1, not what seles did after the stab

Marc23
10-08-2009, 12:52 AM
Seles dethroned Graf in her prime,right in the middle of her reign. It took Nadal three years to finally become no.1.

When Monica was number 1 Graf had the lead in H2H 5:2

Apemant
10-08-2009, 12:53 AM
but nadal will likely finish 09 as number1 ranked and will gain massive points in next years roland garros and wimbledon youd have to think, so thatd make it 3 straight years as year-end number1, not what seles did after the stab

Thanks for your insight RafawonTMC09 :devil:

Marc23
10-08-2009, 12:55 AM
"Steffi Graf is the greatest singles player of all time." -Billie Jean King

"When someone asks me who was the greatest player I've ever seen in the last 25 years, I'd say Steffi Graf - with no hesitation," - Chris Evert

"The mental toughness puts her right up there with the Michael Jordan's and the Wayne Gretzkys and the John Elways....I would come right out and say she's the greatest ever"- Tracy Austin

"I think Steffi Graf's game is perfect. She's the best all-around player of all-time regardless of surface" - Martina Navratilova

When asked about naming the all time top five Martina Navratilova replied by saying, "I'm not going to give the order because that's impossible. Without the [1993] stabbing, Monica Seles would definitely be up there. But Monica doesn't have the numbers, unfortunately. She had the talent for it, but it was taken away. That being said, I have to say Steffi, Billie Jean [King], Margaret Court, Chris Everet, and Suzanne Lenglen. -Martina Navratilova

Here is the proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrqgD2UZhgU

phelbyn
10-08-2009, 01:23 AM
but nadal will likely finish 09 as number1 ranked and will gain massive points in next years roland garros and wimbledon youd have to think, so thatd make it 3 straight years as year-end number1, not what seles did after the stab

Very confident here, aren't we. There's too much to argue with the numbers. Yes Nadal will gain points over Roland Garros and Wimbledon, although he has a MONSTROUS amount to defend from January to May. We could argue by the same logic that Federer has half as many points to defend over that period, thus he should be year end number 1 next year. Not logical to say on my part... is it?

Graf/Seles rivalry was an amazing one! Graf was unchallenged on the tour and Seles showed up to dominate her with an incredibly different style of game. In that rivalry, Graf learned how to adapt to Seles' game. Graf's game in return improved by leaps and bounds.

Honestly I'm impressed both Federer and Nadal have kept it up as much as they have. Federer is like an injury-less wonder... and Nadal ... I'm just amazed he can still walk given that he gives his life for every point. You'd think Federer would succumb to the new style of game brought forth by Nadal, and that Nadal's body would start to fail him. This would put an end to the rivalry and introduce new players to the game. (Which could be where we are at right now.)

But consider the two of them: any other player has to play the match of their lives to defeat them (particularily at a grand slam).

Back to Graf & Seles... their domination and rivalry provided each with more grand slams. But can you even compare the men's and women's games?

phelbyn
10-08-2009, 01:26 AM
When Monica was number 1 Graf had the lead in H2H 5:2

Throughout the 90's much of Graf's career was interrupted by injuries.

Grand Slam number wise, Graf can be compared to Federer, and Seles can be compared to Nadal. AS well each players strengths on particular surfaces are pretty much the same: Graf/Federer = grass, hard, carpet success, Seles/Nadal = clay and gradually other surfaces success.

In terms of how their bodies hold up: Federer is similar to Seles (excluding the stabbing), and Nadal's body seems to hold up as well as Graf's did.

HKz
10-08-2009, 02:49 AM
but nadal will likely finish 09 as number1 ranked and will gain massive points in next years roland garros and wimbledon youd have to think, so thatd make it 3 straight years as year-end number1, not what seles did after the stab

Rafawon09usopen with more of his useful insight :D

kyleskywalker007
10-08-2009, 04:36 AM
but nadal will likely finish 09 as number1 ranked and will gain massive points in next years roland garros and wimbledon youd have to think, so thatd make it 3 straight years as year-end number1, not what seles did after the stab

Well, if we needed further proof that this clown was rafawon09usopen, this pretty much confirms it.
How can you say that Nadal will likely finish '09 as number 1??? He does have his chances of course, but he should vastly outperform Federer from now to the end of the year. In fact, Federer should earn as little points as possible. And this is not exactly Rafa's fav part of the year. I think we can all agree on that ...:rolleyes:

Leo
10-08-2009, 07:05 AM
Yeah, that's why I said Seles never dominated Graf :lol:

However, Graf at that time was starting to fall to other players (Arantxa, Gabriela) and that didn't help matters, such as Federer falling to Nole, Andy Murray doesn't help matters.

There are some interesting and undeniable similarities. Fed and Graf share many characteristics in these respective rivalries and so do Nadal and Seles.

But to be fair, Seles was pretty dominant over Graf in big matches outside of Wimbledon. Then came the stabbing. And their rivalry was pretty one-sided to Graf after from 2005 on.

harleyquin
10-08-2009, 08:36 AM
Nov 1990-April 1993: Seles won 7 out of 9 Slams and all 3 Masters (10 OUT OF 12 BIG EVENTS), Graf won 2 Slams out of 9 and no Masters(ONLY 2 OUT OF 12 BIG EVENTS). After Australian Open 1993, which Seles won, Seles was stabbed and Graf suddenly won the remaining 3 Slams in 1993!!!
Another thing: until the stabbing, Graf had won 11 Slams and Seles had won 8 Slams, Seles was 5 years younger than Graf.
Graf had won 11 Slams before the stabbing of Seles (9 of them were before Seles became competitive at 16 yo) and with Seles stabbed, won 11 more Slams, during those years, Sanchez Vicario was her main rival (sic!). Half of Graf's achievements are under a BIG BIG asterisk.
The stabber did not go to prison, Seles lost her number 1 position as if she had chosen to be stabbed, the Hamburg tournament during which the stabbing happened went on as if nothing had happened after the incident.
Seles was Serbian and at that time noone wanted a serbian number 1 in the sport (those were the times when USA bombed Serbia, those were the times of Milosevic). So Seles was stabbed away of the sport and allowed to come back only after she had become an american citizen. In the grand scheme of things, noone cared if what was going to be the greatest carreer in the history of tennis was cut off. Graf won 11 more Slams and earned millions, Sanchez Vicario got to many finals she never would have reached with Seles in the game, the tour went on as if nothing had happened and Seles of course got nothing but depression. When she came back, she never complained. This is the greatest injustice the sport has ever known.
On April 1993, the history of tennis changed, FOREVER.

8pNADAL
10-08-2009, 09:46 AM
nah i said likely finish number1, not 'finish number1', and apart from the aus open next year the only points nadal has to defend is the events he wins every year (all the clay events)

BlueSwan
10-08-2009, 10:09 AM
Nov 1990-April 1993: Seles won 7 out of 9 Slams and all 3 Masters (10 OUT OF 12 BIG EVENTS), Graf won 2 Slams out of 9 and no Masters(ONLY 2 OUT OF 12 BIG EVENTS). After Australian Open 1993, which Seles won, Seles was stabbed and Graf suddenly won the remaining 3 Slams in 1993!!!
Another thing: until the stabbing, Graf had won 11 Slams and Seles had won 8 Slams, Seles was 5 years younger than Graf.
Graf had won 11 Slams before the stabbing of Seles (9 of them were before Seles became competitive at 16 yo) and with Seles stabbed, won 11 more Slams, during those years, Sanchez Vicario was her main rival (sic!). Half of Graf's achievements are under a BIG BIG asterisk.
The stabber did not go to prison, Seles lost her number 1 position as if she had chosen to be stabbed, the Hamburg tournament during which the stabbing happened went on as if nothing had happened after the incident.
Seles was Serbian and at that time noone wanted a serbian number 1 in the sport (those were the times when USA bombed Serbia, those were the times of Milosevic). So Seles was stabbed away of the sport and allowed to come back only after she had become an american citizen. In the grand scheme of things, noone cared if what was going to be the greatest carreer in the history of tennis was cut off. Graf won 11 more Slams and earned millions, Sanchez Vicario got to many finals she never would have reached with Seles in the game, the tour went on as if nothing had happened and Seles of course got nothing but depression. When she came back, she never complained. This is the greatest injustice the sport has ever known.
On April 1993, the history of tennis changed, FOREVER.
You bring up some valid points, but the highlighted part is nonsense. Seles could have returned any time she wanted. Her returning had nothing to do with her becoming an American.

Hokit
10-08-2009, 10:22 AM
When Monica was number 1 Graf had the lead in H2H 5:2

Statistics can be skewed either way to prove one point or another, as you've just shown. That 5-2 lead was from 1989-1991. Why exclude 1992 and 1993 when Monica was also number 1? Steffi still lead 6-4 before the stabbing had occured. Or did you exclude those years because it made Steffi look more dominant with a 5-2 lead (71% winning percentage) compared to a 6-4 lead (60% winning percentage)?

Marc23
10-08-2009, 11:35 AM
Statistics can be skewed either way to prove one point or another, as you've just shown. That 5-2 lead was from 1989-1991. Why exclude 1992 and 1993 when Monica was also number 1? Steffi still lead 6-4 before the stabbing had occured. Or did you exclude those years because it made Steffi look more dominant with a 5-2 lead (71% winning percentage) compared to a 6-4 lead (60% winning percentage)?

Who said that I excluded 1992 and 1993?While Monica was number 1 from 1991-1993 Steffi also had the H2H lead in that period 3:2...

8pNADAL
10-08-2009, 11:39 AM
Well, if we needed further proof that this clown was rafawon09usopen, this pretty much confirms it.
How can you say that Nadal will likely finish '09 as number 1??? He does have his chances of course, but he should vastly outperform Federer from now to the end of the year. In fact, Federer should earn as little points as possible. And this is not exactly Rafa's fav part of the year. I think we can all agree on that ...:rolleyes:

ill never know who rafawon09usopen is, but i kind of like being accused of being him, its puzzling but fun, and as for nadal v federer well lets just say federer isnt very good at best of 3 set matches and that will be the difference between 1 and 2

Bargearse
10-08-2009, 12:35 PM
Graf, like Federer was very focused and business like on the court never showing emotion. Seles, like Nadal grunted a lot and also played a rather unorthodox style that troubled Graf the same way Nadal troubles Federer.

VolandriFan
10-08-2009, 12:46 PM
Pretty insightful comparison. There was also a bit of a mental issue for Graf; it was clear she really wasn't that sure about what to do. Faster surfaces, like grass, made things very clear for her (a difference from Federer). But on clay and slower hard courts, you saw her struggling to construct and stick with a game plan to counter this new challenge.

She would later develop the tools, strategy and confidence to neutralize Seles. But that, unfortunately, was partly due to the two-year breathing room given to her by a fan.

No, Seles was just twice as slow when she eventually came back.

8pNADAL
10-08-2009, 01:16 PM
Graf, like Federer was very focused and business like on the court never showing emotion. Seles, like Nadal grunted a lot and also played a rather unorthodox style that troubled Graf the same way Nadal troubles Federer.

:lol::lol::lol:

SerenaFederer
10-08-2009, 01:38 PM
is rafalostusopen09 is back :lol:

Marc23
10-08-2009, 03:01 PM
Graf, like Federer was very focused and business like on the court never showing emotion. Seles, like Nadal grunted a lot and also played a rather unorthodox style that troubled Graf the same way Nadal troubles Federer.

In what way?Graf leads Seles 10:5 and Nadal leads Federer 13:7...In that department you could just compare Nadal with Graf...

rocketassist
10-08-2009, 03:01 PM
What, a Nadal fan is gonna stab Fed in a Spanish event?

Marc23
10-08-2009, 11:30 PM
No, Seles was just twice as slow when she eventually came back.

Unfortunately true...