Novak Djokovic - the most complete player on tour? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Novak Djokovic - the most complete player on tour?

Exclusive
12-13-2008, 07:07 PM
Relax, it's not a troll attempt.
Look at the official ATPtennis.com statistic of 2008 - http://www.atptennis.com/en/players/matchfacts/
Let's analyse current top-4 players. We have two categories here: "service games" and "ROS games". We have 6 criterias to determind the best on service and 4 of them to choose the best on return. After getting an arithmetic average with the places players got we have the next:
Nadal:
Serve - #39 + #2 + #27 + #1 + #4 + #5 = #13
ROS - #1 + #1 + #3 + #1 = #1
avrg = #7, diff = 12
Federer:
Serve - #3 + #11 + #5 + #2 + #3 + #1 = #4
ROS - #7 + #9 + #21 + #10 = #12
avrg = #8, diff = 8
Djokovic:
Serve - #10 + #10 + #18 + #3 + #6 + #6 = #9
ROS - #8 + #10 + #1 + #4 = #6
avrg = #7, diff = 3
Murray:
Serve - #12 + #38 + #12 + #31 + #22 + #18 = #22
ROS - #3 + #3 + #18 + #6 = #7
avrg = #10, diff = 15

I know this statistic can not be representable, but I guess it contains some truth inside. Do you think Djokovic is the most complete player on tour right now? I mean Federer can't be the complete player coz he plays old-fashioned one-handed BH; Nadal - you can't name him a total complete player even you are a fan of him; Murray - the kid has a potential, but having a crap forehand he can not be named as a complete.
So, is Djoko an implementation of the perfect player? Perfect means no genius, it means complete.

Thoughts, disscusions.:confused:

Serenidad
12-13-2008, 07:08 PM
I anticipate l_mac's response. :rolls:

finishingmove
12-13-2008, 07:11 PM
novak is almost complete.

the last phase of his training will be volleying with king oscar.

vucina
12-13-2008, 07:33 PM
Yes, there is no point denying it.

Corey Feldman
12-13-2008, 08:41 PM
most complete c**t, yeah ;)

tennizen
12-13-2008, 08:44 PM
I think taking simple average is not a good method. A weighting scheme has to be developed for each of the six categories in each case. This is the only problem I have with this analysis. I'm sure that even with a new weighting scheme, Novak will be the most complete player.

GlennMirnyi
12-13-2008, 08:52 PM
Yeah, he's the most complete player in the ATP.

Except for his game.

And character.

And sportsmanship.

federernadalfan
12-13-2008, 08:59 PM
most complete c**t, yeah ;)

Yeah, he's the most complete player in the ATP.

Except for his game.

And character.

And sportsmanship.

x2

timafi
12-13-2008, 09:07 PM
hell no!

Igaarg
12-13-2008, 09:20 PM
Yeah, he's the most complete player in the ATP.

Except for his game.

And character.

And sportsmanship.

:).I actually like his game, but he has A LOT to improve yet. So, no, it´s not.

BigJohn
12-13-2008, 10:17 PM
He's the most complete something, but player is the wrong word. Fame-ho, d-bag, cheater all fit better...

He can play, but the most complete player? Yeah right...

prima donna
12-13-2008, 10:27 PM
Not even close.

RagingLamb
12-13-2008, 11:08 PM
An analysis based on ranks fails to take into account the amount of variability within each category.

A simple way to deal with this problem is to subtract each player's score from the group mean and divide this difference by the group standard deviations, i.e. compute a Z score.

This will tell you by how many standard deviations a player's score in a given category deviates from the group mean. I did this for the percentages in each category, and for the ace count I looked at aces/match. I did not take into account number of matches for any category other than Aces.

For service games, the sum of Z-scores across the 6 categories for the top 4 are as follows (higher z-score = better performance):

Nadal: 5.62
Federer: 7.31
Djkovic: 4.76
Murray: -1.43


For return of serve, the sum of Z-scores across the 4 categories for the top 4 are as follows:

Nadal: 6.63
Federer: 2.73
Djokovic: 5.07
Murray: 4.18

For service games, Federer performed the best, followed by Nadal, Djokovic and Murray.

For return of serve, Nadal was the best, followed by Djokovic, Murray and Federer.

If you add the Z-scores from Service games and Return of serve, performance is ranked with Nadal as number 1, followed by Federer, Djokovic, and Murray, which surprisingly, is exactly how these players are ranked.

Pfloyd
12-13-2008, 11:15 PM
One also has to take into account mentality in terms of it being an important factor on the "completeness" of a player.

Mentally Djokovic is still not up there.

Exclusive
12-14-2008, 12:10 AM
I think taking simple average is not a good method. A weighting scheme has to be developed for each of the six categories in each case. This is the only problem I have with this analysis. I'm sure that even with a new weighting scheme, Novak will be the most complete player.
I wasn't going to go deeper than simple average in numbers. It seems enough to get the picture in general. Sure, you can add different wages to each the categorie, but it will become subjective.:p Well, these numbers don't tell something for sure, but you can see the tendency. And you're already see it properly.;)
An analysis based on ranks fails to take into account the amount of variability within each category.

A simple way to deal with this problem is to subtract each player's score from the group mean and divide this difference by the group standard deviations, i.e. compute a Z score.

This will tell you by how many standard deviations a player's score in a given category deviates from the group mean. I did this for the percentages in each category, and for the ace count I looked at aces/match. I did not take into account number of matches for any category other than Aces.

For service games, the sum of Z-scores across the 6 categories for the top 4 are as follows (higher z-score = better performance):

Nadal: 5.62
Federer: 7.31
Djkovic: 4.76
Murray: -1.43


For return of serve, the sum of Z-scores across the 4 categories for the top 4 are as follows:

Nadal: 6.63
Federer: 2.73
Djokovic: 5.07
Murray: 4.18

For service games, Federer performed the best, followed by Nadal, Djokovic and Murray.

For return of serve, Nadal was the best, followed by Djokovic, Murray and Federer.

If you add the Z-scores from Service games and Return of serve, performance is ranked with Nadal as number 1, followed by Federer, Djokovic, and Murray, which surprisingly, is exactly how these players are ranked.

It's pretty interesting, but I'm not going to analyze the stats seriously coz they can't include very very many things to be fairly representable. I mean there is no column 'Talent: 0-100%', 'GS tourn-s determination percentage', 'everything-killing-topspin-FH quality' etc.:D
Just a quick look on stats proves that Djokovic has no visible weakness, simultaneously being on top means he is the most complete relative the others tops. Nothing more, nothing less. I actually find him plaing an academy tennis(tennis how it must to be played in theory), along with Federer and Nadal playing different.. umm.. crazy, not normal, not ordinary tennis.:)

sheeter
12-14-2008, 12:27 AM
I mean Federer can't be the complete player coz he plays old-fashioned one-handed BH;

I don't want this to turn into another battleground between people for and against the one-handed backhand, but I think disqualifying Fed just because of his backhand type is questionable. It's the quality of backhand thats important. Its like saying Roddick's backhand is better than Federer's just because he puts both hands on the racket.

Exclusive
12-14-2008, 12:41 AM
I don't want this to turn into another battleground between people for and against the one-handed backhand, but I think disqualifying Fed just because of his backhand type is questionable. It's the quality of backhand thats important. Its like saying Roddick's backhand is better than Federer's just because he puts both hands on the racket.
Don't tell me that, I'm a Federer fan. Well, tennis has changed - nowadays we have the middle-slow courts wich are the majority, there left no way to one-handed BH to be the shot, sadly.:( Fed is Fed, an unique he is, but I find the new realities in tennis where players like Djokovic will rule. I do not like him, but this 'equally balanced tennis' seems to become dominant soon. Wanna be wrong.:o

Nathaliia
12-14-2008, 12:54 AM
Apart from all the cheating ascpets, I would question his motivation. Nadull and Federer even if they attend shittier events sometimes, they give their all (even if Federer loses because he's simply weaker), Djokovic sometimes looks like not really bothered; the same against his TMC match versus Tsonga.

I like to watch his tennis, but there are too many issues that disturb me about him.

Ah well, came to spam here with my beautiful signature.

MrChopin
12-14-2008, 01:52 AM
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a223/Mr_Chopin/openingnight011.jpg?t=1229219230

GlennMirnyi
12-14-2008, 01:57 AM
So ClownDeath is back, right?

Enjoy Incubus
12-14-2008, 02:11 AM
There is a guy named Federer out there.

GlennMirnyi
12-14-2008, 02:43 AM
There's a guy named Guccione out there.

Exclusive
12-14-2008, 08:33 AM
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a223/Mr_Chopin/openingnight011.jpg?t=1229219230
He has 3-(indefinite) years left.;)
Your fault is you can't realize the fact that Djokovic-like tennis will rule the world. I think so, and I got no different points of view there, which proves I'm right. I do not think that Nadal or Murray or anyone else will dominate like Federer did, ever. But need to accept that just a 'good multi-dimentional tennis' particularly known as 'Djoko-style tennis' is an ideal game for tennis right now.:shrug:

Crazy Girl
12-14-2008, 10:06 AM
Yeah, he's the most complete player in the ATP.

Except for his game.

And character.

And sportsmanship.:help::help:Practically, a disaster.:help::help:

Deejay
12-14-2008, 12:34 PM
No way is Djokovic a more complete player than Federer and Murray

rocketassist
12-14-2008, 12:53 PM
Who said Faker had no weakness? He volleys about as well as Gary Neville.

Garson007
12-14-2008, 02:05 PM
He has the most complete baseline game but other than that... :unsure:

Venle
12-14-2008, 04:00 PM
One of the most complete, yes, but he can still improve

Exclusive
12-14-2008, 04:07 PM
Who said Faker had no weakness? He volleys about as well as Gary Neville.
Volleys are useless in modern tennis. You do not need to have this element in your arsenal to be a complete player. Novak know this.:cool: Only incomplete forehand-sided players like former world's No.1 continues play this useless stuff.
No way is Djokovic a more complete player than Federer and Murray
Federer has no BH, Murray has no FH. Djokovic has quite equal both of the shots.:dance:

GlennMirnyi
12-14-2008, 04:18 PM
So I was right.

It is clowndeath.

Mods, do your work - banned user alert.

rocketassist
12-14-2008, 04:18 PM
Volleys are useless in modern tennis. You do not need to have this element in your arsenal to be a complete player. Novak know this.:cool: Only incomplete forehand-sided players like former world's No.1 continues play this useless stuff.

Federer has no BH, Murray has no FH. Djokovic has quite equal both of the shots.:dance:

AHEM, volleying is an important part of the game so if you cannot volley you do not have a complete game.

Fat Dave has a more complete game than Faker- he does everything better and can volley.

GlennMirnyi
12-14-2008, 04:23 PM
Fat Dave isn't exactly a good volleyer.

He's just not as pathetic as Nadull and Faker.

Those are awful standards, anyway.

rocketassist
12-14-2008, 04:26 PM
Fat Dave isn't exactly a good volleyer.

He's just not as pathetic as Nadull and Faker.

Those are awful standards, anyway.

True he's not great at the volleying but I'm just pointing out to a deluded Fakertard that he does have a more complete game than his fanboy object.

Exclusive
12-14-2008, 04:33 PM
So I was right.

It is clowndeath.

Mods, do your work - banned user alert.
The ACC champion is the first user to call an alert to mods.:lol:

AHEM, volleying is an important part of the game so if you cannot volley you do not have a complete game.

Fat Dave has a more complete game than Faker- he does everything better and can volley.
This year's Wimbledon has been conquered without a single volley. Very very important part of the game, sure.:p

Agree about Dave. But we are talking about 2008 season. ATM Djokovic is the most balanced top player, IMHO.
I'm just pointing out to a deluded Fakertard that he does have a more complete game than his fanboy object.
:haha:

Albop
12-14-2008, 04:35 PM
Novak Djokovic - the most complete player on tour?

No.

Hope this helps.



:retard:

GlennMirnyi
12-14-2008, 04:47 PM
The ACC champion is the first user to call an alert to mods.:lol:

So you admit.

Interesting.

Where are the mods when you need them?

Exclusive
12-14-2008, 04:53 PM
No.

Hope this helps.


:retard:
I hope something helps you to survive being an idiot.:hug:

So you admit.

Interesting.

Where are the mods when you need them?
I did not admit. Where did you read it?:eek:

Maybe they are deciding a ban term for you.:shrug:

malisha
12-14-2008, 04:56 PM
Volleys are useless in modern tennis.
Djokovic has quite equal both of the shots.:dance:

42/2008 ATP Madrid (ESP)
I_Hard Ivo Karlovic Novak Djokovic 7-6(4) 7-6(5)

hope this helps:wavey:

BigJohn
12-14-2008, 05:08 PM
ATM Djokovic is the most balanced top player, IMHO.



What proves that? His USO run halted by Fed? His victory against the quality field at the TMC? (Davydenko twice, Simon, JMDP and the Tsonga tank)

Exclusive
12-14-2008, 05:40 PM
42/2008 ATP Madrid (ESP)
I_Hard Ivo Karlovic Novak Djokovic 7-6(4) 7-6(5)

hope this helps:wavey:
So what?:confused:

What proves that? His USO run halted by Fed? His victory against the quality field at the TMC? (Davydenko twice, Simon, JMDP and the Tsonga tank)
Read the first message of the topic.:o I am not Djokovic's advocate here, I don't like him, I just wanted to know if anyone see that statistic share the reality.:o

vucina
12-14-2008, 06:29 PM
There's no point in arguing with an ACC champion Exclusive. His words mean shit. He might as well honk his nose, it will have the same effect.

malisha
12-14-2008, 07:00 PM
So what?:confused:



big part of Ivos game are his volley skills...which you said are useless...not useless as you can see Djoko lost..even on matchpoint Ivo was rushing the net making Djoko scare shit of himself and miss the shot

vucina
12-14-2008, 07:21 PM
big part of Ivos game are his volley skills...which you said are useless...not useless as you can see Djoko lost..even on matchpoint Ivo was rushing the net making Djoko scare shit of himself and miss the shot

"Djoko" lost because Karlovic was serving out of his mind, not because of his useless volleys. How many sets did Karlovic win against him before that match? But if you want to be delusional, that's ok.

Albop
12-14-2008, 07:25 PM
"Djoko" lost because Karlovic was serving out of his mind, not because of his useless volleys. How many sets did Karlovic win against him before that match? But if you want to be delusional, that's ok.

lol it's not like the played a lot of matches before :rolls:

BigJohn
12-14-2008, 07:27 PM
Read the first message of the topic.:o I am not Djokovic's advocate here, I don't like him, I just wanted to know if anyone see that statistic share the reality.:o

Well you do a good job defending him.

About your first post, I agree with that:


I know this statistic can not be representable...


And I think this is BS:


So, is Djoko an implementation of the perfect player? Perfect means no genius, it means complete.




If one focuses on winning matchs during GS, I hear there is a guy named Federer who has reached a bunch of semis and finals on clay, grass and HC, won a number of them too. He did reach 3 GS finals this year only, won the USO...

To me, it is obvious that he has more of a complete game that the evil clown, based on results on different surfaces in the biggest of all tournaments. This year only, equal results on HC to Djokovic, but big advantage on clay and grass.

Djoko: W, S, 2r, S
Fed: S, F, F, W

Stats just like yours who give only an incomplete perspective on the issue, but I think they are just as relevent as yours. Yet they point to a different "most complete".

Plus, a perfect player would have to be a perfect ambassador to the game, again, something that applies more to Federer or Nadal than to someone known to cheat and fake and retire/not fighting to the end... A perfect player with no respect for the game and its fans? Gimme a break. :)

Anyways, all these discussions will soon be irrelevant after the unsuccessful defense of the AO title by the current world #3 player.

:)

Exclusive
12-14-2008, 08:06 PM
big part of Ivos game are his volley skills...which you said are useless...not useless as you can see Djoko lost..even on matchpoint Ivo was rushing the net making Djoko scare shit of himself and miss the shot
OMG, Karlovic is not top player, he need to volley because he has nothing but the serve. Sevre - volley. I am talking about the top players.:rolleyes: The baseliners ##1-4 are.

Well you do a good job defending him.

About your first post, I agree with that:



And I think this is BS:




If one focuses on winning matchs during GS, I hear there is a guy named Federer who has reached a bunch of semis and finals on clay, grass and HC, won a number of them too. He did reach 3 GS finals this year only, won the USO...

To me, it is obvious that he has more of a complete game that the evil clown, based on results on different surfaces in the biggest of all tournaments. This year only, equal results on HC to Djokovic, but big advantage on clay and grass.

Djoko: W, S, 2r, S
Fed: S, F, F, W

Stats just like yours who give only an incomplete perspective on the issue, but I think they are just as relevent as yours. Yet they point to a different "most complete".

Plus, a perfect player would have to be a perfect ambassador to the game, again, something that applies more to Federer or Nadal than to someone known to cheat and fake and retire/not fighting to the end... A perfect player with no respect for the game and its fans? Gimme a break. :)

Anyways, all these discussions will soon be irrelevant after the unsuccessful defense of the AO title by the current world #3 player.

:)
:) First, I have to repeat I am a Federer fan. Always been, currently is, will be for ever.
My fault is that I made people think I'm Djokovic fan.:sad: It is not true. Period.

BigJohn, "perfect" was not a proper definition by me.:o I feel I have a problem coz of my English.

Go4thaGold
12-14-2008, 08:22 PM
The only thing he has down are his imitations. Those are in my opinion the complete! Pretty Funnyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb1IM4ttDug

BigJohn
12-14-2008, 09:33 PM
:) First, I have to repeat I am a Federer fan. Always been, currently is, will be for ever.
My fault is that I made people think I'm Djokovic fan.:sad: It is not true. Period.

BigJohn, "perfect" was not a proper definition by me.:o I feel I have a problem coz of my English.

Being a Federer fan shows you are on the good side. :)

And do not worry about your English, it is not a problem... save for calling Djokovic perfect. I'm just glad you did not mean it. ;)

GlennMirnyi
12-15-2008, 12:13 AM
There's no point in arguing with an ACC champion Exclusive. His words mean shit. He might as well honk his nose, it will have the same effect.

My hand signs are more intelligent and precise than anything you might say, fanatic.

Who are you again, anyway?

Albop
12-15-2008, 12:34 AM
http://nbcsportsmedia.msnbc.com/j/NBCSports/Sections/Tennis/080329-Kevin-Anderson.widec.jpg

GlennMirnyi
12-15-2008, 01:04 AM
http://nbcsportsmedia.msnbc.com/j/NBCSports/Sections/Tennis/080329-Kevin-Anderson.widec.jpg

Peeeeeeeeeeeeedro! :worship:

l_mac
12-15-2008, 01:26 AM
Djokovic has a very efficient, solid game. He works hard, and apart from his lack of prowess at net, has no real weakness. His game is similar to about 90% of the players on tour, but he posses a rare amount of determination and self belief.

But, IMO, he lacks the brilliance that sets certain players apart.

I'm not so keen on Nole, or his tennis.

~Maya~
12-15-2008, 01:29 AM
An analysis based on ranks fails to take into account the amount of variability within each category.

A simple way to deal with this problem is to subtract each player's score from the group mean and divide this difference by the group standard deviations, i.e. compute a Z score.

This will tell you by how many standard deviations a player's score in a given category deviates from the group mean. I did this for the percentages in each category, and for the ace count I looked at aces/match. I did not take into account number of matches for any category other than Aces.

For service games, the sum of Z-scores across the 6 categories for the top 4 are as follows (higher z-score = better performance):

Nadal: 5.62
Federer: 7.31
Djkovic: 4.76
Murray: -1.43


For return of serve, the sum of Z-scores across the 4 categories for the top 4 are as follows:

Nadal: 6.63
Federer: 2.73
Djokovic: 5.07
Murray: 4.18

For service games, Federer performed the best, followed by Nadal, Djokovic and Murray.

For return of serve, Nadal was the best, followed by Djokovic, Murray and Federer.

If you add the Z-scores from Service games and Return of serve, performance is ranked with Nadal as number 1, followed by Federer, Djokovic, and Murray, which surprisingly, is exactly how these players are ranked.

:eek: I found one post here that was worth reading. Kidding, actually there were 2-3 more :D

On the serious note, I like this assessment better

Though I have to say that: Federer: 2.73 on return and Murray's serve score surprised me some

So in conclusion. No, I don't think that Nole is the most complete player yet, but he has some room for improvement. So do few others.
For now, it's Nadal :D

Federerhingis
12-15-2008, 03:07 PM
I think taking simple average is not a good method. A weighting scheme has to be developed for each of the six categories in each case. This is the only problem I have with this analysis. I'm sure that even with a new weighting scheme, Novak will be the most complete player. Exactly taking means is not a very good nor accurate measure, it is a good estimate, but just that. He indeed may still end up number one in these categories, but the difference between him and the next best in all categories won't be as significant.

:).I actually like his game, but he has A LOT to improve yet. So, no, it´s not. Exactly his game is very nice to watch, he is very complete off the ground and overall but he's far from being the best.

He's the most complete something, but player is the wrong word. Fame-ho, d-bag, cheater all fit better...

He can play, but the most complete player? Yeah right...
:lol: I am not so sure about d-bag. :lol: but he was quite unliked even by myself not too long ago. He surely can play at the very highest level there's no denying that.

Snowwy
12-15-2008, 03:25 PM
I love how no one mnetions Nadal in this thread. There is probably a reason why he so easily number 1.

~Maya~
12-15-2008, 03:28 PM
I love how no one mnetions Nadal in this thread. There is probably a reason why he so easily number 1.

That's because you didn't read the whole thread

l_mac
12-15-2008, 04:19 PM
I love how no one mnetions Nadal in this thread. There is probably a reason why he so easily number 1.

This thread is about Djokovic.

BIGMARAT
12-15-2008, 05:41 PM
Some posters just can't discuss without being pathetic.

For me, Federer is still the most complete player ever, foloowed closely lately by Nole.

Branimir
12-15-2008, 06:31 PM
Being complete is so useless. I'm Novak's fan, but you get nothing from being "complete"

It is better to have 2 weapons which make the difference between winning and losing, than being complete and no distinct weapon. Now Djokovic has some weapons, but those weapons didn't help him to be superior in any way so far.

He maybe has the most complete technical game, but then there are: mentality, stamina, hunger to win, hunger to compete at the highest possible level for very long time, etc... etc.. There are so many factors!

Snowwy
12-15-2008, 07:06 PM
That's because you didn't read the whole thread

Besides yours, which I will admit I didnt see, who else did?

This thread is about Djokovic.

This thread is about the most complete player.

~Maya~
12-15-2008, 07:27 PM
Besides yours, which I will admit I didnt see, who else did?


I thought that RagingLamb came to the same conclusion. But I am sure there would be more mention of him if this didn't turn into a paradise for trolls like every other thread where there is the word 'Djokovic' in the title

Snowwy
12-15-2008, 07:35 PM
I thought that RagingLamb came to the same conclusion. But I am sure there would be more mention of him if this didn't turn into a paradise for trolls like every other thread where there is the word 'Djokovic' in the title

Yes, and I goodrepped MergingLamb for that post, because it was a good post :)

I think the trolling is because you get ridiculous threads like this that claim that Djokovic is the best..usually its the nationalists that start them, but generally there is very little evidence to support the claims of the starters and so the trolls appear.

Bascule
12-15-2008, 07:40 PM
Looking at the average of all the skills, he's surely up there. But, the most complete? He fell mentally this year as in motivation, but improved the volley a little bit. I do not agree volley is not important (or he wouldn't work hard on his own volley). And, has to take care about smech and drop shots.

Bascule
12-15-2008, 07:48 PM
Yes, and I goodrepped MergingLamb for that post, because it was a good post :)

I think the trolling is because you get ridiculous threads like this that claim that Djokovic is the best..usually its the nationalists that start them, but generally there is very little evidence to support the claims of the starters and so the trolls appear.

Where did you see the nationalists here who provoked the trolls?
What's wrong with you, girl? Dioptry? People like you actually bring the flame here with this kind of ridiculous posts.

~Maya~
12-15-2008, 07:52 PM
Where did you see the nationalists here who provoked the trolls?
What's wrong with you, girl? Dioptry? People like you actually bring the flame here with this kind of ridiculous posts.

She is probably referring to excited Serbians from the golden slam era :D

And, I don't completely agree with that (her) statement


Yes, and I goodrepped MergingLamb for that post, because it was a good post :)


Same here

Bascule
12-15-2008, 08:11 PM
She is probably referring to excited Serbians from the golden slam era :D

And, I don't completely agree with that (her) statement

Then she lives in the past.:devil:

Anyway, when I came here, if you were Novak's fan and had serbian flag, people called you a nationalist. If you raised against it, it was even worse: they called you a fanatic, fashist, blood-thursty...:confused:
I'm REALLY tired of all this trash, but if one can't change that, one should ignore it, I suppose.
Also, none of Novak fans claimed here that he IS the most complete player...so far.:devil:

~Maya~
12-15-2008, 08:16 PM
Then she lives in the past.:devil:

Anyway, when I came here, if you were Novak's fan and had serbian flag, people called you a nationalist. If you raised against it, it was even worse: they called you a fanatic, fashist, blood-thursty...:confused:
I am aware of that
I'm REALLY tired of all this trash, but if one can't change that, one should ignore it, I suppose.
:yeah:
Also, none Novak fan claimed here that he IS the most complete player.
Don't think this is correct :lol:

Exclusive
12-15-2008, 08:34 PM
Interesting to read, but I see you're deviating from the original topic. Let me remind you: according to the official stats Djokovic has the best serve+ROS percentages combined, comparing with the top-4. Of course the statistic can't represent a mental characteristic, also it do not contains the skills like netplay(volley, dropshots etc), okay, we are talking only about baseline game. All of us are subjective, stats are an objective thing - you like it or you are not - doesnt matter. I am realizing I named the thread wrong. Better be '... - the most balanced...' Anyway, changing the question I have an another one to you: What Djokovic need to do to become a dominant player like Federer-Nadal? Variants are: improve his game, work about mentality, just wait a chance; others options.

At last, everyone know that Federer is the only all-around tennis player right now. Everyone who follows tennis know that Murray is called as the second player who can do everything on court. Djokovic is not in their league, for sure. But he plays tennis how it must to be played.

dekomusic
12-15-2008, 11:25 PM
In my opinion these statistics have nothing to do with actual match play. Tennis matches and especially at this level are won or lost in small details and few points here and there. For example, someone can return every serve of a game but eventually lose it. the statistic in RoS is 100% at this particular game but the outcome is zero. Of course statistics over many matches and throughout a year may indicate something, but not something really importand when it actually matters. IN THE BIG MOMENTS. That is something that cannot be measured. Mental state-stamina cannot be measured. I like to call it the X-Factor and it cannot be measured. But this is just my opinion. Feel free to comment.

P.S I think that politics of any kind do not have a place in tennis. But i guess the general dislike for Djokovic, and there are many that hate his guts, is because of his cocky and arrogant behaviour. Especially in the era of two very humble and well mannered players that will be among the greatest of all times and maybe one of them will be the G.O.A.T.

Snowwy
12-15-2008, 11:39 PM
She is probably referring to excited Serbians from the golden slam era :D

And, I don't completely agree with that (her) statement

You werent here during the AO and the early 2008 season. Certain other posters in this thread were among the clowns of that time.

~Maya~
12-16-2008, 12:03 AM
Check your PM for clarification of what I meant. Exclusive is complaining because we are not staying on the subject.

Bascule
12-16-2008, 02:16 AM
You werent here during the AO and the early 2008 season. Certain other posters in this thread were among the clowns of that time.

Even if you're right somehow, then you are bringing the flame from the past, what is very wrong however. So, leave it behind.

dekomusic:
P.S I think that politics of any kind do not have a place in tennis. But i guess the general dislike for Djokovic, and there are many that hate his guts, is because of his cocky and arrogant behaviour. Especially in the era of two very humble and well mannered players that will be among the greatest of all times and maybe one of them will be the G.O.A.T.
Are you trying to justify the political and national incorrectness that came with Djokovic success by this deep psychological analysis of his character?:confused:
Anyway, case closed.
Vomit! Pardon, vamos the humble goats!

Arkulari
12-16-2008, 03:11 AM
Djoker is a good player, but it's not the most complete :shrug:
still, the guy can still develop his game but somehow I think he has reached his peak

Federerhingis
12-16-2008, 05:26 AM
Some posters just can't discuss without being pathetic.

For me, Federer is still the most complete player ever, foloowed closely lately by Nole.
They would argue well many may say that his backhand is a major weakness and for the most part it is. Nonetheless his game is still in my opinion the most versatile and complete. Novak has a wonderful repertoire as well, so so solid off both wings, it is admirable.

ORGASMATRON
12-16-2008, 10:46 PM
This is ridiculous one hand backhand is old fashioned? lol. Roger still has one of the best backhands in the game and he by far the most complete player of all time, Novak doesnt have a prayer.

Vida
12-16-2008, 11:05 PM
well you can hardly find any player other than Nole and say: "he has no weakness". Sure, Fedz is cool, but his 1hbh can be a liability (compared to other elements in his game), AND he chokes a lot...

Rafa exels on clay, but has trouble on HC; Murray is still a bit raw and his forehand is not as good as his BH and so on...

so I think the OPs idea is roughly correct. Djoker is 'most complete', in terms that nothing really stands out in its own, but is sufficient to label him that way. Obviously that shouldn't be mixed with 'best on the tour'.

sheeter
12-17-2008, 12:06 AM
Djokevic also lacks an attacking slice, its no where near Federer's.

ORGASMATRON
12-17-2008, 12:08 AM
well you can hardly find any player other than Nole and say: "he has no weakness". Sure, Fedz is cool, but his 1hbh can be a liability (compared to other elements in his game), AND he chokes a lot...

Rafa exels on clay, but has trouble on HC; Murray is still a bit raw and his forehand is not as good as his BH and so on...

so I think the OPs idea is roughly correct. Djoker is 'most complete', in terms that nothing really stands out in its own, but is sufficient to label him that way. Obviously that shouldn't be mixed with 'best on the tour'.

Ok dont let the fact that you dont like Roger cloud your objectivity. Roger chokes alot??? How can you win 13 grand slams and be on your way to be the greatest of all time when you choke a lot?! He may have a weakness against Nadal, but thats just on clay anyway.

Rafa has trouble on hard court? Hes still one of the best on that surface! The bottom line is Roger is the most complete that ever played the game and that is all there is to it, just ask Sampras!

BigJohn
12-17-2008, 12:21 AM
well you can hardly find any player other than Nole and say: "he has no weakness". Sure, Fedz is cool, but his 1hbh can be a liability (compared to other elements in his game), AND he chokes a lot...



:spit:

:haha: :haha: :haha:

OMFG. You cannot be serious.

But if you are, :haha: :haha:

Nollie
12-17-2008, 12:47 AM
:spit:

:haha: :haha: :haha:

OMFG. You cannot be serious.

But if you are, :haha: :haha:

:worship: Deerhunter :worship:

Federerhingis
12-17-2008, 01:53 AM
well you can hardly find any player other than Nole and say: "he has no weakness". Sure, Fedz is cool, but his 1hbh can be a liability (compared to other elements in his game), AND he chokes a lot...

Rafa exels on clay, but has trouble on HC; Murray is still a bit raw and his forehand is not as good as his BH and so on...

so I think the OPs idea is roughly correct. Djoker is 'most complete', in terms that nothing really stands out in its own, but is sufficient to label him that way. Obviously that shouldn't be mixed with 'best on the tour'.

Bingo!

Federerhingis
12-17-2008, 01:57 AM
Djokevic also lacks an attacking slice, its no where near Federer's.

That's the thing, while Federer's game insn't fully bullet proof, his game is the most versatile and the superlatives are greater than the flaws, mental issues aside.

Forehander
12-17-2008, 07:11 AM
Yes, from your godly statistical analysis he's definitely the most complete. Then he should be winning every single tournament next year he plays. I look forward to it.

ORGASMATRON
12-17-2008, 09:39 AM
That's the thing, while Federer's game insn't fully bullet proof, his game is the most versatile and the superlatives are greater than the flaws, mental issues aside.

How is his game not fully bulletproff? I mean you are talking about the greatest that ever lived here. It's pretty much as bulletproff as they come. Which are the flaws you are talking about here? Lets look at it, great serve, great volleys, great backhand slice and topspin, great forehand, great returns. Did i leave anything out??

Steelq
12-17-2008, 12:17 PM
Djokovic is Steven Gerrard of tennis.

Crazy Girl
12-17-2008, 03:38 PM
Djokovic is Steven Gerrard of tennis.Gabriel Batistuta!!!Forza Batigol! Forza Fiorentina! Alè Viola!:worship::worship::worship::worship:

habibko
12-17-2008, 03:44 PM
let me put it this way: a class of students with all Cs and Ds students, and one student named Djokovic got about B in every subject, while another two students got many As and occasional Bs and Cs, this will make Djokovic a solid student..*picturing Novak as a student....* a solid player all around, no major weaknesses, no major strengths or weapons either, he doesn't stand out in any department as he doesn't lack out in any either, that makes him the most above average player on tour, nothing more nothing less, most complete? certainly not.

TBRaven
12-17-2008, 04:45 PM
Djokovic is Steven Gerrard of tennis.
No he is Martin Taylor.
The ass of tennis.

ORGASMATRON
12-17-2008, 05:03 PM
How is his game not fully bulletproff? I mean you are talking about the greatest that ever lived here. It's pretty much as bulletproff as they come. Which are the flaws you are talking about here? Lets look at it, great serve, great volleys, great backhand slice and topspin, great forehand, great returns. Did i leave anything out??

Yes i did: Great fitness and speed, great mentality. Nuff said. :nerner:

Vida
12-17-2008, 05:28 PM
Ok dont let the fact that you dont like Roger cloud your objectivity. Roger chokes alot??? How can you win 13 grand slams and be on your way to be the greatest of all time when you choke a lot?! He may have a weakness against Nadal, but thats just on clay anyway.

Rafa has trouble on hard court? Hes still one of the best on that surface! The bottom line is Roger is the most complete that ever played the game and that is all there is to it, just ask Sampras!

faced a bunch of clowns who choke more than he does. ;)

Federerhingis
12-17-2008, 05:31 PM
That's the thing, while Federer's game insn't fully bullet proof, his game is the most versatile and the superlatives are greater than the flaws, mental issues aside.

Yes i did: Great fitness and speed, great mentality. Nuff said. :nerner:

Objectively it is not fully bullet proof, if it were he wouldn't lose love sets to Nadal, clay aside and the game style mismatch. It makes no sense to say a player's game is fully bullet proof when there are players that expose his "weaknesses" poor return of serve, pathetic break conversion and vulnerable backhand wing.

His serve is among the best in the history of the game, few place that shot better than him. His forehand is phenomenal, when it's on there's no better shot in the game. He can volley beautifully and his slicing is old school classic. Yes these all make him a marvelous player, but he does have flaws, hence why an in form Safin can overpower him on occasion, and Nadal, Nalbandian and Murray can expose his backhand vulnerability; especially since they all return so well, Murray and Nalbandian read Fed's serve the best and they can crush it too at times.

Therefore bullet proof it is not, wonderful and one of the best the game will ever see no doubt. ;)

Serenidad
12-17-2008, 10:58 PM
This is deceptive imo.

Of the "Big Four" Djokovic doesn't have the worst backhand, forehand, serve, and arguably volley (Nadal). On the other hand he doesn't have the best of any of them either, imo. So it appears that he is deceptively the most well-rounded. Would you rather have a bunch of solid shots (relative to the big four) or the best [this] or [that] and a more prominent weakness?

zeleni
12-18-2008, 09:23 AM
This is deceptive imo.

Of the "Big Four" Djokovic doesn't have the worst backhand, forehand, serve, and arguably volley (Nadal). On the other hand he doesn't have the best of any of them either, imo. So it appears that he is deceptively the most well-rounded. Would you rather have a bunch of solid shots (relative to the big four) or the best [this] or [that] and a more prominent weakeness?

Backhand?

zeleni
12-18-2008, 09:36 AM
Djokovic is certainly one complete player, but Federer is still the most complete player ever.

Nole needs to improve his volleys and net game. Other shots are fine. He could also make his serve more consistent...

Crazy Girl
12-18-2008, 10:38 AM
Djokovic is certainly one complete player, but Federer is still the most complete player ever.

Nole needs to improve his volleys and net game. Other shots are fine. He could also make his serve more consistent...:yeah::yeah::hatoff::hatoff:Yeeeessss s!! Go Rogi!!:yeah::yeah::hatoff::hatoff:

Bernard Black
12-18-2008, 10:59 AM
Djokovic has great groundstrokes and returns but I'm struggling to think of anything else special about his game, so no, I would not call him a complete player in the slightest.

Serenidad
12-19-2008, 04:34 AM
Backhand?

Murray, IMHO.

LinkMage
12-19-2008, 04:37 AM
Of course! He will win all 4 GS next year. Just watch. ;)

HattonWBA
12-19-2008, 10:05 PM
U cant argue with statistics but NO - Federer and Nadal are the most complete players on tour still in my opinion with djokovic third - just like the rankings

«Ivan»
12-19-2008, 10:29 PM
Djokovic is certainly one complete player, but Federer is still the most complete player ever.

Nole needs to improve his volleys and net game. Other shots are fine. He could also make his serve more consistent...

:worship:
nole is my 1st fav,fed 2nd but you're right.
fed is still THE king,no doubt in terms of subject.
like it or not rafa is well deserved no.1 despite certain weaknesses.

Murray, IMHO.

:haha:take him home.

«Ivan»
12-19-2008, 10:32 PM
U cant argue with statistics but NO - Federer and Nadal are the most complete players on tour still in my opinion with djokovic third - just like the rankings

I'm with you.ranking isn't accident,never was.exept in ljuba truba situation.i like ljuba though but...

Matt01
12-19-2008, 11:03 PM
Of course! He will win all 4 GS next year. Just watch. ;)


I almost agree. Rafa will win RG, but Djokivic will win everything else :)

Very creative username by the way :lol:

Igaarg
12-19-2008, 11:34 PM
U cant argue with statistics but NO - Federer and Nadal are the most complete players on tour still in my opinion with djokovic third - just like the rankings

Agree the Federer part, but I consider other players more complete than Nadal, like Murray, Nalby, Safin etc. etc. (his game, not his head) and Djoko also. Nadal service is improving, but is not his best shot, and is better not to talk about his volley.:help:

Albop
12-20-2008, 12:16 AM
faced a bunch of clowns who choke more than he does. ;)

Agree completely about the last year US Open Final.

trixtah
12-21-2008, 03:40 AM
[1]Relax, it's not a troll attempt.

[2]I mean Federer can't be the complete player coz he plays old-fashioned one-handed BH;

[3]Nadal - you can't name him a total complete player even you are a fan of him;

[4]Murray - the kid has a potential, but having a crap forehand he can not be named as a complete.

So, is Djoko an implementation of the perfect player? Perfect means no genius, it means complete.


2, 3, and 4 contradict 1

I even had to make sure you started this thread in December of 2008 taking a second and third glance to give you the benefit of the doubt, but alas, trolling at its finest.

chammer44
12-21-2008, 07:44 AM
I can recall a brief period in the early 90s when the zeal for the next new thing reached such fevered heights of stupidity that some commentators had taken to singling out the humble Wayne Ferreira of South Africa as a likely future Slam winner and player to watch out for. Having climbed aboard this creeky bandwaggon myself for about a year you can imagine my disappointment that he never lived up to the hype.

I bring it up only because pundits seemed fond of saying that he had no weaknesses. Well, he had one: he didn't know how to win when it mattered.

The real test of a great player in any sport or endeavour is not so much in their invulnerability or absence of weakness, but in how well they can steer the course of events away from this and that shortcoming and into an environment which favours their particular strengths. Perhaps Joker can't volley worth shit, or mount an aggressive slice, but does it matter? Can he work around these and other deficiencies and find a way to win regardless?

Having already reached the Semis in every Grandslam at the tender age of 21, I'd wager he can.

Halba
12-21-2008, 09:51 AM
he can cause he has tremendous defensive skill and has a great defensive backhand as well as a good attacking, power game. he also returns serve great.

FairWeatherFan
12-21-2008, 10:08 AM
I think Federer and Murray are more complete than Djokovic. Djokovic is certainly up there in terms of the proficiency of his overall game, though.