In the spotlight - Aloimeh [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

In the spotlight - Aloimeh

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zeleni
12-13-2008, 10:00 AM
1. Why did you come to America? Are you US citizen?
2. Did you have opportunity to emigrate into some other country? (Was USA your first choice?)
3. Do you believe in "American dream"? (Would you work as hard as you work in America if you stayed in Serbia(?) or went somewhere else (western Europe, Australia, Russia,…)?)
4. Did CIA (or some other intelligence service) tried to recruit for collaboration with them?
5. What do you think about Clay Death’s six months ban?
6. Are you mason? Were you offered to become mason?
7. Are you armed? If answer is yes – do you sometimes carry your gun with you?
8. Do you know who is Srdja Trifkovic?

Aloimeh
12-13-2008, 03:08 PM
1. Why did you come to America? Are you US citizen?
2. Did you have opportunity to emigrate into some other country? (Was USA your first choice?)
3. Do you believe in "American dream"? (Would you work as hard as you work in America if you stayed in Serbia(?) or went somewhere else (western Europe, Australia, Russia,…)?)
4. Did CIA (or some other intelligence service) tried to recruit for collaboration with them?
5. What do you think about Clay Death’s six months ban?
6. Are you mason? Were you offered to become mason?
7. Are you armed? If answer is yes – do you sometimes carry your gun with you?
8. Do you know who is Srdja Trifkovic?

1.) I was born in America. My parents came over because my father was doing a Fulbright in physics. Of course I'm a citizen (and not of any other country, either).

2.) See 1.

3.) I do not believe in the American dream. I believe careers are just like commodities - a matter of supply and demand. You can be highly educated and skilled and if your skills are not in demand, you will not have a job or at least not a great job. You can also have put in very little investment into your training and if you are clever you can make lots of money without all that much work. I went into a medical/research career because I find science interesting, medicine meaningful, and the income in the US is quite good also. The long hours and heavy responsibilities are the downside. I think I'm a pretty responsible person *when it really matters* (i.e. I've been tardy to lectures and missed them but I would never do so with a patient). Would I work as hard in another country? Probably not. My natural tendency is to relax, read a lot, listen to music, spend time with family, and if I had money - travel and see the world. I'm not someone who lives to work (although that will be my life during residency).

4.) No.

5.) I oppose it. I like ClayDeath, although he does talk about death a bit too much.

6.) No, never offered and not interested.

7.) No, don't own any weapons nor do I want to.

8.) Yes, he's a writer for Chronicles magazine and author of "Sword of the Prophet," and a book on the Ustase. Seems like an interesting fellow, although he's a bit too overtly anti-Muslim for many readers to buy his arguments and seems a bit libertarian for my taste.

elessar
12-13-2008, 03:22 PM
1) Are you a christian?
2) Why is your Serbian heritage so important to you if you've never been there?
3) Do you like any players other than Djokovic?
4) How can you stand to talk to Clydey for so long?
5) Who's the poster who annoys you the most on MTF (you can say me I wouldn't be very surprised, or offended :lol:)?

Stensland
12-13-2008, 03:56 PM
did you vote for obama?

have you ever thought about moving to serbia again?

are you a frat member?

do you believe 9/11 was an inside job?

do you have a complete serbian name (first and last) or did you get an american first name by your parents since you were born in the u.s. anyways?

what does your nickname stand for?

Aloimeh
12-13-2008, 04:29 PM
1) Are you a christian?
2) Why is your Serbian heritage so important to you if you've never been there?
3) Do you like any players other than Djokovic?
4) How can you stand to talk to Clydey for so long?
5) Who's the poster who annoys you the most on MTF (you can say me I wouldn't be very surprised, or offended :lol:)?

1.) Yes

2.) Because when I was growing up in the early 1990s I had some bad experiences where kids told me they hated me and one student shouted out in the middle school library "kill the Serbs." These were not Croatian/Bosnian Muslim/Albanian students - they were "typical" Americans, clearly being taught these things in school/home (there was one particularly virulently anti-Serb teacher in my school called Mr. Coons). The media reported things in a very biased and unprofessional way. I came to feel judged as a kid for my heritage (and I still sense a "judging" eye on occasion, even with my faculty and classmates at medical school), so I came to identify more strongly in this way. Had there been no war in 1990s and the incredible media bias that trickled down into society, etc., I probably wouldn't identify particularly strongly as Serb at all. I imagine things are much harder for people of Middle Eastern heritage in the US, who are judged even more harshly and whose appearance reveals their origins before they even open their mouths. My parents were not really what you might call nationalists before the war. My father actually identified as a Slovene before the 1990s war (he's half), and my family had Albanian, Bosnian Muslim, and Croatian friends. Unfortunately, because of their behavior rather than ours, those friendships all crumbled (I guess they weren't really friends afterall). War causes people to turn on each other in strange ways.

3.) I'm not particularly crazy about Djokovic anymore, either. I did like Seles (yes, I know, WTA), because she was so fearless. I respect Sampras but I wouldn't say I was a big fan.

4.) He brings up interesting conversations.

5.) On occasion, primadonna, GlennMirnyi, and KitinovRules have been very annoying.

Aloimeh
12-13-2008, 04:40 PM
did you vote for obama?

have you ever thought about moving to serbia again?

are you a frat member?

do you believe 9/11 was an inside job?

do you have a complete serbian name (first and last) or did you get an american first name by your parents since you were born in the u.s. anyways?

what does your nickname stand for?

1.) I did not vote for anyone in this or any other presidential election. Don't plan on doing so either. Many of the Obamabots are now discovering even before his inauguration that he's going to break a lot of promises.

2.) No. I am very big on natural beauty and the places where my family is from are not particularly beautiful. I have never seen the really beautiful parts of the country, but I might consider having a vacation place there. On the whole, I am much more attracted to natural beauty of Italy, Greece, and the Caucasus. The US state of California has great natural beauty but it's very expensive and a bit strange for a US East-coaster.

3.) No.

4.) No. But I do think the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand was known of in advance.

5.) Unfortunately, both names are Serbian and the last name is very hard for most Americans. That makes it a lot harder to "blend in." My sister's first name is very hard also. Yes, I think they should have given us English names, but my mother wanted to give me her grandfather's name (after he died) and my father was really set on my sister's name.

6.) Aloimeh is the inverse of hemiola, which is a pattern in music:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemiola

I first learned of it from a piece by Dvorak (my favorite composer) that I played in orchestra. The piece is called Czech Suite.

q.j.
12-13-2008, 04:44 PM
- Andric or Crnjanski

if latter, how high would you rate 'Migrations' in terms of you personal favorite novels, and what are you top 5 favorite novels, if it's not too personal...




-Fraud vs. Nadull, who is a bigger goat for you, and if you don't want to consider either of them a goat, who do you think will leave a bigger mark on tennis?


- crepes or pancakes ?
(and if crepes with what in it)

elessar
12-13-2008, 04:47 PM
I still think you're too paranoiac about the western media's attitude towards Serbia in general but I guess I can see where you're coming from.
Thanks for answering.

Stensland
12-13-2008, 04:48 PM
1.) I did not vote for anyone in this or any other presidential election. Don't plan on doing so either.

why is that?


5.) Unfortunately, both names are Serbian and the last name is very hard for most Americans. That makes it a lot harder to "blend in."

did your parents, as far as you know, have the same problems to blend in or was it basically a "children's problem", if you will, because of blatantly rude comments by young kids? i take it your dad has been well-educated, so apparently he didn't have that much of a problem to fit in, did he?

so where do you see serbia in 20 years' time? having joined the euro, on its was to become the new spain? alienated even further? taken over by russian forces?

concerning the naming dispute with greece, do you think macedonia should give in?

Aloimeh
12-13-2008, 05:39 PM
- Andric or Crnjanski

if latter, how high would you rate 'Migrations' in terms of you personal favorite novels, and what are you top 5 favorite novels, if it's not too personal...




-Fraud vs. Nadull, who is a bigger goat for you, and if you don't want to consider either of them a goat, who do you think will leave a bigger mark on tennis?


- crepes or pancakes ?
(and if crepes with what in it)

I have not read either. In fact, the only literature I've read is British, American, Russian, and ancient Greek, all in English (translation). Of the French, I only read Madame Bovary and didn't like it. Haven't read any German authors. I've made it a side project of mine to get through all the British/American works over the next few months and years and then try to learn the foreign languages and read them in the original. I had a lot of Spanish in high school but forgot a lot of it, so I would start with that. Then Russian, cause it's a close language to Serbian. I tried learning ancient Greek several times but it is a very difficult language and requires dedication and time that I don't have at the moment.

My 10 favorite works of literature, probably in this order: Anna Karenina, The Brothers Karamazov, Tess of the D'Urbervilles, King Lear, Crime and Punishment, Othello, Romeo and Juliet, the Oresteia of Aeschylus, the Oedipus cycle of Sophocles, Inferno.

Fraud will be a bigger GOAT no doubt. Ironically, I think Nadal will leave a bigger mark on the game.

Never had crepes. I've only had American pancakes and Serbian pancakes (palacika), which I hear are somewhat crepe-like. Of course, I like palacinke a lot but I've only had them with chocolate or maple syrup.

Aloimeh
12-13-2008, 05:51 PM
I still think you're too paranoiac about the western media's attitude towards Serbia in general but I guess I can see where you're coming from.
Thanks for answering.

I would definitely agree with you that certain peoples, if you could collectivize them and "diagnose" them as a psychiatric case, are paranoid. Serbs are definitely one of them. So are Poles, Russians, Jews, and probably some others that I haven't thought of.

Nathaliia
12-13-2008, 06:23 PM
There are controversies about your gender on MTF and there's also a gossip you're a medicine student. Could you clear that for us please.

You have the same avatar as Jolan Gago; have you been taken for him by mistake?

Why are Poles paranoid? :D (I agree, but I'd like to hear it from you)

Aloimeh
12-13-2008, 06:24 PM
why is that?



did your parents, as far as you know, have the same problems to blend in or was it basically a "children's problem", if you will, because of blatantly rude comments by young kids? i take it your dad has been well-educated, so apparently he didn't have that much of a problem to fit in, did he?

so where do you see serbia in 20 years' time? having joined the euro, on its was to become the new spain? alienated even further? taken over by russian forces?

concerning the naming dispute with greece, do you think macedonia should give in?

1.) Because I believe that a.) by participating in an electoral process you are granting implicitly legitimacy to whichever candidate is ultimately elected and b.) if you vote for the person that happens to get elected you are partly responsible for bringing him/her to power. Should that candidate later disappoint and conduct actions/policies you find unethical, you are in a way responsible for the consequences. For instance, if I vote for Bush, I am responsible, in part, for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and all the people that have had their lives ruined/been killed by those policies. I find abortion disgusting and Obama is an abortion supporter. McCain was trigger happy to make ***** wars against China and Russia. The list goes on. In the end, all politicians engage in actions I find morally reprehensible, so I refuse to give them, or the electoral process itself, my vote.

2.) Depends on what you mean by integrated? My parents did not come to the US for the love of money. I don't think they're particularly into money, they're not very materialistic, and that doesn't help when you live in a society that is so oriented towards possessions. My parents don't own a home and after 30 years of being in the US, this year my father got his first new car. My parents stressed the importance of getting a good education and have somewhat "elitist" inclinations with respect to that. My mother studied philosophy and history of art and sociology. My father has a PhD in physics and extensive backround in math and computer science. His brother had an MD and PhD. His mother had an MD and so did his father. His aunt and his grandfather were pharmacists. So there's a long tradition of education in his family, and on my mother's side, even though they were peasants, they were all very intelligent people who did not quite blend into the rural culture around them. My uncle on the mother's side, who is a farmer and never finished high school, is one of the sharpest people I know, and my grandmother tells me that my grandfather (whom I never knew, he died a long time ago), was even more intelligent. Ultimately, getting an education does not help you blend into America if you don't have the money to go with it. My parents have been economically lower middle class in the US, and they've never blended well with other lower middle class people because many of these people have far less education and different interests, and the upper middle class people don't interact with them because they don't have money, a house they own, family vacations, etc. It's kind of strange.

3.) I have no idea. I think people are somewhat "exhausted" there and want to just get gobble up by the EU so they hopefully won't have to deal with any more separatists and the economy will improve. But I'm skeptical. Geographically, they cannot build the sort of relationship with Russia that they might like. I don't think they have a good future, in general.

4.) If Greece is pissed off *just* because of the name, that's a little immature. I'm pissed off about Bosnian Muslims calling themselves Bosniaks because it implies that Serbs and Croats are not native to Bosnia, but I wouldn't make political blockades over the issue. I think the Greeks are worried that Macedonian Slav nationalists will agitate the Slavs living in Greek (Aegean) Macedonia. The problem for the Macedonian Slavs is that their national identity is very recent and is entirely based on the region they inhabit rather than any real distinction from their neighbors. Genetically, there's definitely a strong Hellenic and Thracian component, but culturally they have nothing to do with ancient or modern Greeks (well, apart from Orthodoxy and the Cyrillic alphabet) and most historians and linguists agree that their language is essentially Bulgarian. They are a product of Titoist nation building. The best solution long ago was to have Vardar Macedonia partitioned into Serb and Bulgarian components, with Bulgarians getting the center, southwest and Ohrid area and Serbs getting the northeast Skopje and Tetovo areas and be done with it (the formerly "Serb" area is now mostly Albanian anyway). At the moment, neither Bulgarians nor Serbs really view them as a legitimate ethnic group and Greesk look on them as frauds who are trying to steal Greek history. So, for Macedonians to dump their title, what would they call themselves instead? South Serbs? Western Bulgarians? Balkans Slavs? Doesn't really work, since they don't really have a history as a distinct people for more than about 50-100 years.

Aloimeh
12-13-2008, 06:29 PM
There are controversies about your gender on MTF and there's also a gossip you're a medicine student. Could you clear that for us please.

You have the same avatar as Jolan Gago; have you been taken for him by mistake?

Why are Poles paranoid? :D (I agree, but I'd like to hear it from you)

I am male and a medical student.

I picked that avatar before JolanGago joined. I believe I have been taken for him (or he for me) by mistake at times. If you look carefully, there are slight differences in the avatar at the edges.

Poles are paranoid because they have a difficult history characterized by invasions, occupations, and mass killings at various times, and particularly by their neighbors. I don't consider "paranoid" peoples to be "victim" peoples. They've certainly all engaged in misdeeds, but by and large they've gotten the short end of the stick historically (which is ironic for Poles and Russians because paradoxically both got the short end of the stick and they've kind of helped in turns to make each other paranoid).

Clydey
12-13-2008, 06:34 PM
1) Are you a christian?
2) Why is your Serbian heritage so important to you if you've never been there?
3) Do you like any players other than Djokovic?
4) How can you stand to talk to Clydey for so long?
5) Who's the poster who annoys you the most on MTF (you can say me I wouldn't be very surprised, or offended :lol:)?

Bloody turncoat. :mad:

Stensland
12-13-2008, 06:35 PM
very interesting, as usual.

do you support the traditional american sports (basketball, baseball, football) or do you still have an interest for soccer?

Depends on what you mean by integrated?

did they get sort of bullied as adults the way you were getting bullied as a kid? they've been in america for some time when the actual war in the southeast of europe erupted, right? so did their acquaintances distance themselves from your parents in any way?

you talk about your family - are they all in the u.s. now? uncle etc.?

bailout for the automakers or not? and if so, in what way?

zeleni
12-13-2008, 06:37 PM
Sorry for my wrong assumptions on you. Hope you are not offended.:hatoff:
I thought you were older as well.:D

What is you other favorite sport besides tennis?
Do you play baseball?
Who do you support when Nadal and Murray are playing?
Which is your favorite Grand Slam?

Aloimeh
12-13-2008, 06:54 PM
very interesting, as usual.

do you support the traditional american sports (basketball, baseball, football) or do you still have an interest for soccer?



did they get sort of bullied as adults the way you were getting bullied as a kid? they've been in america for some time when the actual war in the southeast of europe erupted, right? so did their acquaintances distance themselves from your parents in any way?

you talk about your family - are they all in the u.s. now? uncle etc.?

bailout for the automakers or not? and if so, in what way?

I played soccer as a kid and I still like seeing a match but I don't actively go out to look for one and my cable plan currently only supports 10-15 channels and soccer isn't on one of them.

I only watched baseball during the world series when the Boston Red Socks had a chance of winning (and did). Otherwise, I'm not too interested.

I watched basketball as a kid at times because my sister loves it but I don't care much for it.

I hate American football. It seem like an idiot sport but it's supporters say it's a sport of thinking an strategy, but I'm not sure how.

My parents didn't get "bullied" but they did feel backstabbed by certain friends not from the region. Most "American friends" (by that, I mean NOT ex-Yugo) just bought the CNN/NYT/Time line and weren't interested in what my parents had to say. They were quite accusatory even. Some of them said that they knew the truth based on what they heard in their Catholic church. Another set of family friends (Romanian Jewish Israelis, actually) were highly dismissive of anything my mother said and said something like "we see the truth on TV." And then there were the "backstabbers." Croat friends said that Serbia would be reduced to the Belgrade Pashaluk (a Turkish province that essentially is just the territory around Belgrade) and laughed at that. Another Croat woman (who was married to a Swede, and was very kind and affectionate to my sister and I) became almost raving and started explaining how she was proud that her father had been an Ustasa (Croat fascist) during WWII. The Bosnian Muslim friends signed a petition to get Belgrade bombed. The woman called my mother and coldly asked her why she didn't wish her condolences for the war in Bosnia. My mother told her that her brother was at a risk of being drafted and that Serbs were dying in Bosnia too and that she had seen the petition the woman and her husband had signed. The woman responded "Yes, and you know what, we're sending donations for army fatigues and guns as well, so what do you say to that?!" So that was the end of that.

Other family friends had analogous experiences. A high-level chemistry researcher who is still a friend of my parents was collaborating with a "typical American" scientist. When the 1999 Kosovo war broke out, she wrote him an email explaining that she couldn't continue working with him when she saw what was going on, and cut off all professional contact. Talk about being an objective and impartial scientist!

In the US - only my sister, mother and father. I have a first cousin (son of my paternal uncle) but we don't communicate. In Croatia are my paternal uncle's three children from a different marriage (whom I've never met); he passed away last year. In Serbia is my maternal grandmother, my maternal uncle and his wife and three children, my great aunt on the mother's side and her two grandchildren, and my father's half-sister and her husband and daughter (we don't talk much to them).

For automakers, I am worried about the unemployment catastrophe that will happen if they bankrupt. Japanese car prices will skyrocket if the American cars completely crash. On the other hand, if we bail them out, too, what about every other industry in the country? At any rate, the government/people must retain a hand in the company while the loan is out - this should not be a subsidizing of rabid capitalism with no return to the taxpayer.

Aloimeh
12-13-2008, 07:00 PM
Sorry for my wrong assumptions on you. Hope you are not offended.:hatoff:
I thought you were older as well.:D

What is you other favorite sport besides tennis?
Do you play baseball?
Who do you support when Nadal and Murray are playing?
Which is your favorite Grand Slam?

I'm not offended at all. The CIA and masonry questions were certainly interesting and unexpected.

Hmm, I like running, swimming, gymnastics at the Olympics (although it's kind of a fake sport because it's judged rather than having some sort of objective measure, but it's interesting to see what the (distorted) human body is capable of doing).

I'm not good at any sports, unfortunately. We weren't encouraged to pursuit athletics as kids. I would make my kids do one or two sports, just for health and social reasons.

Nadal vs. Murray? Don't particularly care. I have some "sympathy" for Scottish people so maybe I'd be inclined for Murray, but not because of the way he plays or anything. On the other hand, it's hard to dislike Nadal - he gives me no hatred fodder, unlike Fraud.

Favorite slam: used to Wimbledon because the grass was unique and there was tradition. It latter years it strikes me as a bit stuffy. I became keen on the French this year because the clay's also unique, but it's a bit too "intimate" for me. The US Open, I think, is my favorite, because it's here and it feels like the grandest of the slams when you see them play at night in NYC.

Nathaliia
12-13-2008, 07:13 PM
What is your opinion on Palestine issue?

Aloimeh
12-13-2008, 08:12 PM
What is your opinion on Palestine issue?

My views have oscillated over time. On the one hand, I see the Jewish argument that they could not have their security guaranteed by Gentile countries, because in the vast majority of Gentile countries they were persecuted or discriminated against and in some cases exterminated. On the other hand, I find it hard to justify the founding of a state on the basis of religion (as opposed to ethnicity and historical continuity). Clearly, there is a strong non-Semitic component in Ashkenazi, Falasha, and even some Sephardi Jews, and to claim that after 2000 years they were going to go back to the land of their ancestors (clearly, only some of their ancestors), solely on the basis of their religious distinction and persecution, is a bit of a stretch.

Would we support Mormons getting a separate country in Utah because of their religion and a history of persecution at the hands of non-Mormons?

On the other hand, there are things about Jews that set them apart from "ordinary" religious groups and make them somewhat ethnic. For one, Jewishness is usually determined by birth to a Jewish mother. Being Christian or Muslim or most other religions is a matter of personal beliefs, faith, and a way of life - not one's mother's origins. Also, the Hebrew language exists as a language of the Jewish people, something that's not the case with other religions. Hebrew has a 1:1 correspondence to Judaism. Arabic does not have a 1:1 correspondence to Islam (there are Christian Arabs and many non-Arab traditional Muslims, such as Turks and Persians). Christianity clearly does not have a 1:1 correspondence to any language, not even Hebrew (it's origins) or Greek (the language in which it was spread and recorded in the holy texts). So that's another thing: Jews are kind of a religion and kind of an ethnic group and it's all sort of fuzzy and that makes the justification of their founding of a state somewhat fuzzy as well, even in the context of the enormous persecution they have faced.

On the other hand, the Arabs have inhabited the territory continuously since at least the 7th century, and one could argue that many "Arabs" in the territory are in fact Arabized and in many cases Islamicized ethnic Jews, Samaritans, Greeks, Romans, and others who inhabited the territory during Hellenic, Roman, and Byzantine rule. So there's much greater continuity there. However, one could argue that Jewish culture greatly predated Arab culture in that territory, so it ought to have precedence.

And then there's the issue of why Arab Palestinians should so unfairly pay as to lose their country in large part because of the behavior of European Nazis.

All very complex, and hard to decide whichever way. I think Israel should keep Jerusalem, that Gaza should be annexed to Egypt and be an Arab territory, and that the West Bank should either go to Jordan and become one Arab land (remove all the settlements, of course), or become a separate state, although it's doubtful this state would be viable. I don't think so many religious sites in Israel should be administered by the Wakf. Many of those sites have/had significance to Judaism and Christianity way before the Muslims entered, and it should be operated by secular authorities in such a way that all three religious groups can have time for worship, with minimal alterations to the structures of the sanctuaries. The conflict between Greeks and Armenians at the Nativity has been particularly bad of late and that, too, needs to be settled by an agreement. Similarly, the Muslims can't hold monopoly over the Temple Mount just because they'll go insane if anyone comes close to Al Aqsa and they'll make an intifada.

Stensland
12-13-2008, 08:39 PM
For one, Jewishness is usually determined by birth to a Jewish mother. Being Christian or Muslim or most other religions is a matter of personal beliefs, faith, and a way of life - not one's mother's origins.

i think muslims do have such a rule, or at least something alone those lines. when you're born to muslims, you're muslim by birth.

given the heated debate about integration over here in europe, how do you see the integration in the states? i understand muslims, as an example, apperently blend in much more peacefully in the states whereas hispanics speak up time and time again.

do you know evangelicals or re-born christians (or whatever they call themselves)? what are they like? are they seriously the kind of nuts european media makes them look like?

Aloimeh
12-14-2008, 04:37 AM
i think muslims do have such a rule, or at least something alone those lines. when you're born to muslims, you're muslim by birth.

given the heated debate about integration over here in europe, how do you see the integration in the states? i understand muslims, as an example, apperently blend in much more peacefully in the states whereas hispanics speak up time and time again.

do you know evangelicals or re-born christians (or whatever they call themselves)? what are they like? are they seriously the kind of nuts european media makes them look like?

For Muslims, I think it is assumed that if your father is, you are, because the it is such a male dominated society. That's why it's OK for a Muslim man to marry Christian and Jewish women but not a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man. If you convert from Islam to another religion, then you're an apostate. But I didn't think it was understood as a patrilineal thing in the same way as Jewish matrilineality.

There are far fewer Muslims in the US than there are in Europe, percentage wise. There's also probably less tolerance of expression of Muslim culture in the US, partly due to 9/11. I expect that once they are 10+%, they'll start making problems too.

I think the US is an increasingly fractured society. Not to be a hypocrite, I will freely admit that I am not a completely integrated American. I have a dual identity. I do not speak English at home. But on the other hand, I accept and embrace the fact that I was born in a country founded by English immigrants, I accept (and cherish) the English language as the language for all communications outside the home and for education, and I am grateful that this country has been so accepting of non-Anglo-Saxonic immigrants and their children (like me). I wouldn't want it to be otherwise. I am alarmed by the lack of integration by the Hispanic population of the US, but even more so alarmed by the lack of willingness to accept linguistic (and to some extent cultural) integration as something that ought to take place. There are Chinese people who live in the NYC and San Francisco Chinatowns who don't know English and never learned it. I have a Korean friend from Los Angeles whose mother has lived here for over 15 years and she doesn't know English. While I think everyone should make an effort to learn English, I understand that it might be hard for some, especially adults. This doesn't bother me at all. What would bother me would be Chinese and Koreans demanding dual language signs, packaging labels, and the like, and that's not what we're seeing. We're not seeing this for any ethnic group but the Hispanics, and I find this very alarming.

The country is also losing a sense of tradition. Christian holidays have been neutralized by secularization or outright sidelining out of the calendar. Christmas is a Christian holiday only in name. Easter and Good Friday, historically the most important Christian holidays, are almost inconspicuous. I hate to be accusatory, but the group that has been most vociferously against public expressions of Christianity has been the American Jewish community. I take this very hardly, because I would never want to prevent them or any other religious group from celebrating their own holidays, yet this group, particularly via it's "secular" arm, the American Civil Liberties Union, has campaigned far and wide to remove Christmas trees, wreathes, creches, and crosses from public venues, schools, etc., almost while simultaneously demanding the posting of menorahs, dreidels, and Magen Davids alongside them or in their place. The Muslim community has found a strange bedfellow in the ACLU in that it rallies for headscarves and the star & crescent. Anyway, there's been an effort to secularize and de-Christianize and neutralize cultural expressions of people of European Christian heritage, whereas other ethnic/racial/linguistic groups have been given free reign to express themselves as part of this glorious thing called "diversity." I don't like this scenario and it reminds me of Yugoslav politics in which the two largest ethnic groups had their cultural expressions suppressed whereas smaller minority groups were encouraged in their expressions. This did not lead to harmony - only more dissention, anger, and ultimately separatism and a violent counterreaction by the disgruntled majority.

I know many evangelicals and in the US I would probably be considered an evangelical. Evangelicals are people who take the Bible literally. All sorts of people can fall into that, from intellectuals, theologians (my previous pastor was a professor at a well known seminary) and professionals (I know a number of doctors who are), to business people, blue collar workers, etc. Unfortunately, many Europeans think they are some sort backward bumpkin lunatics, which is not an accurate portrayal at all. The churches admittedly vary widely, from large "mega-churches" of 3000 people that use a "modern" worship format to traditional churches (I attended an evangelical church in college that was founded in the 1700s, which is pretty old by American standards) with hymns and pipe organs, to cult-like churches held in house basements.

zeleni
12-14-2008, 11:43 AM
Who will win Wimbledon 2009?
Do you follow WTA?
Have you ever had black girlfriend?
In which branch of medicine would you like to specialize?

Stensland
12-14-2008, 12:50 PM
I know many evangelicals and in the US I would probably be considered an evangelical.

say what?? :eek: that's kinda surprising, to be honest; wasn't yugoslavia an atheist country anyways?

Aloimeh
12-14-2008, 04:29 PM
say what?? :eek: that's kinda surprising, to be honest; wasn't yugoslavia an atheist country anyways?

My father's family was totally atheist. He is still pretty much atheist/agnostic and while not hateful towards my faith, does not endorse it or relate to it. This has created an emotional distance from him that I don't have with my mother and sister, who share my faith.

On my mother's side, while people were nominally religious and celebrated a few traditions (slava, Easter, Good Friday), only her grandmother was an actual believer. She was a very devout Orthodox Christian. Her mother (who I'm not sure if she was fully a Serb or part Vlach) came from a well-to-do merchant family and was well educated. When she (my great great grandmother) was dying of cancer, and my great grandmother was eight years old, she left her with her own Bible as a parting gift.

So, my mother, who was very close to my great grandmother, always wanted to learn more about religion. She believed in God and in Jesus but didn't really understand fully the message of Christianity. When she came to the US, she first decided to attend a Baptist church (NOT the nearby Orthodox church) which was a strange decision. When my family moved to another part of the country, we lived in the home of an Orthodox *Jewish* family who were Holocaust survivors (the woman lost all her family except her sister and was raised in Cuba, the man lost everyone and survived Auschwitz). So a few Jewish influences came in, such as not consuming blood or pork (I still avoid eating pork and blood, although I clearly do not keep kosher in the way Orthodox Jewish people would) and very orthodox views on sexual morality. When we moved to a third place in the US, my mother met a lady who confronted her with the question of her eternal destiny, so she began doing Bible studies with this lady and attended church with her (a Baptist church). So, she raised my sister and myself this way and I would define myself as a Christian who feels most closely affiliated to Baptist/Presbyterian/Congregationalist churches, but doesn't hold to any one in particular. I have attended Catholic services at two funerals of childhood classmates. I've also attended Orthodox services for Easter and enjoyed them. But theologically I'd say I'm closest to Evangelical Protestantism.

Aloimeh
12-14-2008, 04:43 PM
Who will win Wimbledon 2009?
Do you follow WTA?
Have you ever had black girlfriend?
In which branch of medicine would you like to specialize?

1.) Most likely Nadal. I could imagine Djokovic or Murray winning it if they make drastic improvements, but probably not Federer. Nadal is the default, if for no other reason than experience (being in the final three times and winning once against an incredibly tough opponent).

2.) I have. It's more entertaining for the non-tennis stuff. Like Schnyder stealing tennis balls, Serena calling her opponent "b!tch" on court, Ivanovic's Squeakygate. As a kid, I watched more WTA than ATP because I was following Seles more than anyone else. But after seeing both a good deal and comparing, WTA is such a joke, it's beyond belief. It's kind of sad though. It doesn't have to be that way. Women are never going to be as fast, as strong, as agile, as men, but they could mix up their technique and bring a bit more to the game, like Justine Henin tried. Instead, screaming and raw power wins the day (the fact that dinosaurs like Serena and Venus, who first began winning slams in the 1990s could very well win one or two in the 2010s is just unacceptable).

3.) I have never dated. I think I'm ready at this point, but my requirements are pretty strict, the biggest one being that she's a genuine Christian. I also wouldn't want to marry someone who has engaged in premarital sex. There's far fewer of those than you might think in the US. Of course, I wouldn't date anyone unless there was a potential for marriage.

As for black women. I have found myself attracted to black and Asian women quite a bit. Of black women, the women from Africa with coal-black skin which have an almost blue sheen (Sudan?) and Ethiopian women are the loveliest to me. I've seriously thought of a Chinese girl here in medical school who is very intelligent and kind and a Christian. The problem I've noticed is a cultural one, not a racial one. A lot of these "ethnic" people in the US are very strong on their culture and I think in the mix that my culture would be lost when it comes to raising children. So, I think I would prefer to date/marry someone of European or Middle Eastern origins.

4.) Mostly likely internal medicine residency (3 years) followed by fellowships in hematology/oncology (3 years) and infectious diseases (2 years). It is a little unorthodox to do two fellowships following medicine, not least because the income in fellowship is so much lower than in practice, but I find both of the fields incredibly interesting and useful. Not pretending that I'm ignoring the money, but if I was interested in the best money for the least work, I'd do radiation oncology, dermatology, or radiology. These specialties require superb board scores (I fortunately have very good board scores at the moment) and research (which I also have), so I could probably match into one of them, but I have no interest in radiation, reading films, or dealing with skin. So, I think I'll go into what interests me and the income will be perfectly respectable anyway.

~*BGT*~
12-15-2008, 06:39 AM
What instrument do you play? I played Dvorak's Zwei Waltzer on cello when I was 14 for a music competition with my high school orchestra. We also played Bartok's Romanian Folk Dances and got a superior :)

Are you still an undergrad? What school are you at currently? And what is your dream med school?

Do you type like you talk? I say that because in real life, I would say, "what school are you at?" but I don't know how to phrase that online so that I don't like a Southern retard. :lol:

How old are you?

Will you ever change your sig?

And it's interesting what you say about black women. :) Because as a black woman, lighter black women are perceived to be more attractive, or lighter skin color in general when it comes to people of color. Look at Beyonce, Rihanna, and Halle Berry -- all light skinned black women who are considered sex symbols. Then look at Alex Wek and she could only be a high fashon model. And then there's the whole inner "battle" between darker and lighter skinned black women, which is really frustrating. :o

So, my question regarding that is: do you think you could handle an interracial relationship? Like if you were to date a black woman, do you think it would be difficult to overcome cultural differences and outer pressure to have a successful relationship?

Stensland
12-15-2008, 10:15 AM
3.) I have never dated. I think I'm ready at this point, but my requirements are pretty strict, the biggest one being that she's a genuine Christian. I also wouldn't want to marry someone who has engaged in premarital sex. There's far fewer of those than you might think in the US. Of course, I wouldn't date anyone unless there was a potential for marriage.

oh come on, you're taking the piss, right? never dated? genuine christian? no "premarital sex"?? good lord, aloimeh. :rolleyes:

Aloimeh
12-15-2008, 11:07 AM
What instrument do you play? I played Dvorak's Zwei Waltzer on cello when I was 14 for a music competition with my high school orchestra. We also played Bartok's Romanian Folk Dances and got a superior :)

Are you still an undergrad? What school are you at currently? And what is your dream med school?

Do you type like you talk? I say that because in real life, I would say, "what school are you at?" but I don't know how to phrase that online so that I don't like a Southern retard. :lol:

How old are you?

Will you ever change your sig?

And it's interesting what you say about black women. :) Because as a black woman, lighter black women are perceived to be more attractive, or lighter skin color in general when it comes to people of color. Look at Beyonce, Rihanna, and Halle Berry -- all light skinned black women who are considered sex symbols. Then look at Alex Wek and she could only be a high fashon model. And then there's the whole inner "battle" between darker and lighter skinned black women, which is really frustrating. :o

So, my question regarding that is: do you think you could handle an interracial relationship? Like if you were to date a black woman, do you think it would be difficult to overcome cultural differences and outer pressure to have a successful relationship?

1.) Oboe. Played a bit of violin too, and tried to self-teach myself piano (that one was not too successful). My greatest regret is quitting piano and violin as a kid (although I took violin up later on), because later on I wished I had known them better. I think cello is a great instrument, too. Another few instruments I think are interesting and would like to know a bit (aside from cello): clarinet, flute, harpsichord, and pipe organ.

2.) No. I am in medical school. Dream medical school? Probably Yale. I don't like New Haven as a city, but Yale medical school has a system of *NO GRADES* in the first two years (the "book learning" years). Which is wonderful, because then the student can focus on what's really important for the board exam and not be concerned with memorizing the minutiae that Professor X thinks are important (but only because he researches it in his lab).

3.) I type as I talk. My speech is a bit overly formal, and I've been known to unconsciously throw in briticisms, although at the moment I can't recall which.

4.) 23

5.) Probably not. It's outdated and I really don't hate Fraud as much as I used to and I really don't care for Djoke as much either, but I think it'll stick.

6.) I think it's hard to know about cultural differences unless you seriously ponder them or live through them. As a kid, I thought that marrying an Asian person would be no problem (I grew up around a lot of Asian people). It might not be a "problem" even now, but it's only over the last year of seriously considering a particular individual that I came to realize just how strongly culturally identified she was. I've never been in this position with a black person, and I can't predict what it would be like because I haven't even been close to that situation. The situation I was close to (with Asians) has showed to me that factors I had not even considered long ago suddenly came up when it became more relevant.

As for Halle Berry, etc. and black beauty, I put very little weight to skin tone in determining beauty. I put it to facial features, the harmony of the facial features, body type, etc. As for the "battle of the skin tones" you might want to read up on how bad it is in India. There, great weight is placed on skin tone so a beautiful woman with darker skin is not as highly regarded as an otherwise unattractive woman with pale skin. Beauty is very culturally-dependent. For instance, when I was in the Indian subcontinent, it was told me on several occasions that I was "very attractive" and when people saw a photograph of my sister they also said that she was "very attractive." Perhaps it was only flattery, perhaps not. However, in the US, we would be considered only average and not particularly attractive at all.

Aloimeh
12-15-2008, 11:18 AM
oh come on, you're taking the piss, right? never dated? genuine christian? no "premarital sex"?? good lord, aloimeh. :rolleyes:

I'm serious. I know it sounds weird and impossible, but it's true. I don't want to marry outside of my religion because it creates a huge conflict in the marriage when the partners are of different religious beliefs and the conflict only gets worse when the question of "how to raise the children" comes up. In the Bible, Christians are warned to not "unevenly yoke" themselves to a non-Christian. Also, I have abstained from premarital sex and I would expect the other person to have also done so.

Regarding dating, my thinking is this: if I am not in a position to marry someone because of 1.) who she is or 2.) circumstances in my life, then I shouldn't waste her time or my time or bring either one of us into temptation (physical intimacy, no?) by dating. I didn't date in high school or college because I wasn't anywhere close to being ready for marriage. At the age of 23, I think I could potentially marry if it was the right person. So, the reason I'm not dating now is because I haven't found the right person to ask out on a date!

Stensland
12-15-2008, 11:56 AM
Regarding dating, my thinking is this: if I am not in a position to marry someone because of 1.) who she is or 2.) circumstances in my life, then I shouldn't waste her time or my time or bring either one of us into temptation (physical intimacy, no?) by dating.

why not? you do know that physical intimacy can be fun, right? it's something you should want to do, not as much of a burden or obstacle, like you make it sound.

i take it you willingly never had sex in your life so far?

Aloimeh
12-15-2008, 12:06 PM
why not? you do know that physical intimacy can be fun, right? it's something you should want to do, not as much of a burden or obstacle, like you make it sound.

i take it you willingly never had sex in your life so far?

I have no doubt that it's enjoyable. Otherwise, so many people wouldn't be doing it. And of course, I do desire it and that's only normal as well. I just don't want to do it outside of marriage.

In response to your second question, yes, never willingly or unwillingly (whatever that would mean in my case)

Stensland
12-15-2008, 12:10 PM
that's the first really disturbing thing about you, i must say. (not that i wanted to ask you out or anything, don't get me wrong :p )

Aloimeh
12-15-2008, 12:14 PM
that's the first really disturbing thing about you, i must say. (not that i wanted to ask you out or anything, don't get me wrong :p )

why?

Stensland
12-15-2008, 12:27 PM
because most people who have such a world view are absolute idiots; home-schooled, narrow-minded dimwits who're just ignorant about what happens around them. they're deeply insecure and desperately need to rely on religious feats in order to cope with their life i.e. find a meaning in it. it's the weak ones who usually do that. are you a weak one?

plus i don't think you really know what you're missing out on.

JolánGagó
12-15-2008, 12:58 PM
I dunno what to think of this...:scratch:

Aloimeh
12-15-2008, 02:06 PM
because most people who have such a world view are absolute idiots; home-schooled, narrow-minded dimwits who're just ignorant about what happens around them. they're deeply insecure and desperately need to rely on religious feats in order to cope with their life i.e. find a meaning in it. it's the weak ones who usually do that. are you a weak one?

plus i don't think you really know what you're missing out on.

Well, what you've expressed here strikes me as "an idiotic narrow-minded dimwitted" view. I respect what you have to say a great deal, and I'm surprised you would make a judgment of who I am on the basis of what other people who may agree with me on certain issues are like. Do you consider me to be ignorant of the world? Do you think I'm narrow-minded?

I was not homeschooled, and if I were, I would not be embarrassed by it. The problem of homeschooling that many evangelicals do is that they use substandard educational programs and the primary educator (usually the mother) is frequently not particularly well educated herself. The educational programs are not substandard because they incorporate religious beliefs; they are substandard because they are beneath the appropriate level of what should be taught - the math education is about two years behind what's taught in US public schools, and that's saying a lot (considering how bad many US public schools are). I did get extra education at home: my mother taught me to read and write before kindergarten, she encouraged me to draw and paint, play musical instruments, write poetry, and gave me encyclopedias and novels to read. My father taught me advanced math on the side. I have no regrets about that and I think I would do the same and more with my kids. Would I homeschool them? Perhaps. The public schools in the US are of a terribly low standard and are frankly a waste of time; on the other hand, pulling kids entirely out of school is probably not that good for their social development.

Religious feats? I don't know what you mean by that. Perhaps you meant religious beliefs or religious texts? I can assure you that I am not insecure. Life without God IS meaningless.

Regarding "missing out" on something that many of my peers have experienced. Sure, I guess I'll just have to miss out on premarital sex, drugs, and getting drunk (note, I did not say I abstain from alcohol (I do drink, of course) - I said I abstain from getting drunk).

Stensland
12-15-2008, 02:51 PM
Well, what you've expressed here strikes me as "an idiotic narrow-minded dimwitted" view. I respect what you have to say a great deal, and I'm surprised you would make a judgment of who I am on the basis of what other people who may agree with me on certain issues are like. Do you consider me to be ignorant of the world? Do you think I'm narrow-minded?

no, you're not. that's exactly why i find your point of view so disturbing. if some ass clown on mtf would've come up with something like that, i'd go "alright, whatever". but you?! :confused:

you didn't seem like a guy who'd 'fall for' something like excessive religion, that's why this whole thing appears so weird to me.


I was not homeschooled, and if I were, I would not be embarrassed by it. The problem of homeschooling that many evangelicals do is that they use substandard educational programs and the primary educator (usually the mother) is frequently not particularly well educated herself. The educational programs are not substandard because they incorporate religious beliefs

sorry, but i think the problem of homeschooling is the obvious indoctrination of the parents' beliefs most of the time, especially when done by evangelicals. it's a mixture of sermons and school the kids are exposed to. at least this is why i'm strongly objecting a system that allows homeschooling.


...I did get extra education at home: my mother taught me to read and write before kindergarten, she encouraged me to draw and paint, play musical instruments, write poetry, and gave me encyclopedias and novels to read. My father taught me advanced math on the side. I have no regrets about that and I think I would do the same and more with my kids.

yeah, but the whole idea of homeschooling is keeping the kids away from an actual school. what your parents did was some sort of "side-schooling", mainly encouraging you to do extra-curricular stuff. most parents do something like that, mine did too. there's nothing wrong with that, actually it's a great thing to have. what i dislike is the "instead of", not the "plus".


Would I homeschool them? Perhaps. The public schools in the US are of a terribly low standard and are frankly a waste of time; on the other hand, pulling kids entirely out of school is probably not that good for their social development.

Religious feats? I don't know what you mean by that. Perhaps you meant religious beliefs or religious texts? I can assure you that I am not insecure. Life without God IS meaningless.


yes, i meant religious beliefs and so on. do you go tu church regularly? do you pray before going to bed? do you pray before meals?
i don't know if you're insecure, you sure don't seem like it. but again, i was referring to the majority of people who cling to religion. so you're not part of the majority, good for you.


Regarding "missing out" on something that many of my peers have experienced. Sure, I guess I'll just have to miss out on premarital sex, drugs, and getting drunk (note, I did not say I abstain from alcohol (I do drink, of course) - I said I abstain from getting drunk).

it's your choise. i prefer to fuck, to drink and i used to smoke a joint from time to time while at school. :wavey:

JolánGagó
12-15-2008, 04:08 PM
sorry, but i think the problem of homeschooling is the obvious indoctrination of the parents' beliefs most of the time, especially when done by evangelicals. it's a mixture of sermons and school the kids are exposed to. at least this is why i'm strongly objecting a system that allows homeschooling.

So you prefer the state to indoctrinate your children rather than doing it yourself :lol:

~*BGT*~
12-15-2008, 04:13 PM
I'm serious. I know it sounds weird and impossible, but it's true. I don't want to marry outside of my religion because it creates a huge conflict in the marriage when the partners are of different religious beliefs and the conflict only gets worse when the question of "how to raise the children" comes up. In the Bible, Christians are warned to not "unevenly yoke" themselves to a non-Christian. Also, I have abstained from premarital sex and I would expect the other person to have also done so.

That's very admirable. :hatoff: So have I though many on here find that hard to believe. And yes, I already knew about race relations in India. The black community and Indian nation have a lot in common. :)

What religion are you?

Bascule
12-15-2008, 05:47 PM
Aloimeh - very inspirational for a discussion, as usual.
I must admit I was surprised reading some quotes about you. I wasn't aware that you were a medicine student (I thought - a history one). Also, I thought you visited Serbia already. And, at last, I had no idea about your evangelist education, since I thought you're ortodox. Also, you are truly religious!, but I do mind some quotes, par example:
"Life without God IS meaningless". I wouldn't agree. It's very subjective and you should add: "for me".
As you are informed about our culture and way of raising up children (especially looking at type of society I grew up), the most intelligent and educated people I know do not believe. Yes, people do marry at church, they do christen their children, they do celebrate Easter, Christmas and slava...but it's more like wishing to save the customs and tradition. To remember where they come from. I had a colleague at University who found God at 27 (and I don't say it's bad about years). The fact is that she wasn't considered much intelligent even before that...or it is in case of my country, it's pretty weird here when young people are so devoted to God, like they are disturbed or something. Of course, not harsh as I maybe just said. Not to mention others, as adventists...talking about adventists I knew a few VERY BAD examples. Anyway, common people see their religion as a sect. Maybe we need more tolerance or more genuine people among the religious ones.
My grandma was very religious, but I don't find my life meaningless comparing to her. On the contrary.
As far as your attitude about sleeping with someone, I agree with you that you shouldn't do it just like that, but when you are truly in love. What if you could not marry the same at once...but after school and getting a job? Would you sleep with her anyway? Sometimes desire and love are too strong.
Anyway, strange...Do you want to say that you would rather marry a religious christian chinese girl than, for example, a not really religious serbian girl? How marriage functions between your parents regarding their different attitude about faith?
I wouldn't mind to marry someone of another religion, maybe I'm wrong, but, it sounds a little primitive for me. What I do mind is in some way big physical difference...when it's about asian and african people, I do admit, I prefer them to be less black and with less strange face traits. Or to look spiritual at least.
Anyway, strange thing about americans: they are a way much more religious than people in Europe. Look at MTF for example. "In dollar we trust". What is strange: it seems that you have more in common with a certain american muslim I know, than with me (or someone with the same background as your is).:devil:

vucina
12-15-2008, 06:34 PM
Aloimeh, wtf are you doing in a protestant church? A piece of advice, if you ever come to Serbia, don't mention that to anyone.
Lol, a protestant Serb, what's next, a black Swede?

Aloimeh
12-15-2008, 06:46 PM
no, you're not. that's exactly why i find your point of view so disturbing. if some ass clown on mtf would've come up with something like that, i'd go "alright, whatever". but you?! :confused:

you didn't seem like a guy who'd 'fall for' something like excessive religion, that's why this whole thing appears so weird to me.



sorry, but i think the problem of homeschooling is the obvious indoctrination of the parents' beliefs most of the time, especially when done by evangelicals. it's a mixture of sermons and school the kids are exposed to. at least this is why i'm strongly objecting a system that allows homeschooling.



yeah, but the whole idea of homeschooling is keeping the kids away from an actual school. what your parents did was some sort of "side-schooling", mainly encouraging you to do extra-curricular stuff. most parents do something like that, mine did too. there's nothing wrong with that, actually it's a great thing to have. what i dislike is the "instead of", not the "plus".



yes, i meant religious beliefs and so on. do you go tu church regularly? do you pray before going to bed? do you pray before meals?
i don't know if you're insecure, you sure don't seem like it. but again, i was referring to the majority of people who cling to religion. so you're not part of the majority, good for you.



it's your choise. i prefer to fuck, to drink and i used to smoke a joint from time to time while at school. :wavey:

Re: homeschooling. Indoctrination takes place regardless. Young children are very impressionable, and if the parents don't provide moral education, then someone or something else will, whether it's peers, siblings, friends, teachers, or role models from pop culture. These are NOT who should be providing moral education - it's the family and church.

As I said earlier, public school is inefficient and largely ineffectual. High performing students are dragged down by underperforming students (who are usually in this situation because of a bad family situation or lack of discipline in the home), time is wasted, etc. I think with a rigorous homeschooling program, children could learn in 4 hours at home *much* more than they learn in 8 hours at school. Again, not saying I would implement it, just saying that in and of itself it is not a bad thing.

Re: religious beliefs. I'm not as "regular" as you might think. I have not prayed before meals and before going to bed, particularly recently. I haven't attended church in quite a while because I've been really unhappy with the quality of sermons of late (it's a new pastor and he's frankly bad, I'll have to find another church). Christianity is about a relationship with God through Christ - it is not about operations and rituals. If I am thankful or repentant or in want of something, I will pray. If it doesn't proceed from the heart, it's worthless in the eyes of God. You really should read the Gospels if you want to know what Christianity is all about.

Aloimeh
12-15-2008, 06:47 PM
That's very admirable. :hatoff: So have I though many on here find that hard to believe. And yes, I already knew about race relations in India. The black community and Indian nation have a lot in common. :)

What religion are you?

Christian.

Aloimeh
12-15-2008, 06:54 PM
Aloimeh, wtf are you doing in a protestant church? A piece of advice, if you ever come to Serbia, don't mention that to anyone.
Lol, a protestant Serb, what's next, a black Swede?

I've mentioned it and they look at me like I'm a crazy cultist (see Bascule above). Why shouldn't a Serb be Protestant? Serb is an ethnicity. Protestant is a religious denomination. Ethnicity is a matter of language and cultural identification. Religion is about beliefs. You can have Serb Protestants just like you can have Serb Muslims (in Bosnia and Sandzak).

For me, Orthodoxy is a proud overly-ritualized ethnocultural system empty of true spiritual substance (don't get me wrong, many Protestant denominations are just the same or worse). It is BADLY in need of reformation, just like the Catholic was 500 years ago and indeed still is. Of course, Protestantism is also in need of reformation as well. After a few decades, most "official" religions become tied in a set of rituals and beliefs that aren't scripturally based - and genuine believers need to cast off these traditions and re-derive their faith and practice from the holy texts.

Aloimeh
12-15-2008, 07:07 PM
Aloimeh - very inspirational for a discussion, as usual.
I must admit I was surprised reading some quotes about you. I wasn't aware that you were a medicine student (I thought - a history one). Also, I thought you visited Serbia already. And, at last, I had no idea about your evangelist education, since I thought you're ortodox. Also, you are truly religious!, but I do mind some quotes, par example:
"Life without God IS meaningless". I wouldn't agree. It's very subjective and you should add: "for me".
As you are informed about our culture and way of raising up children (especially looking at type of society I grew up), the most intelligent and educated people I know do not believe. Yes, people do marry at church, they do christen their children, they do celebrate Easter, Christmas and slava...but it's more like wishing to save the customs and tradition. To remember where they come from. I had a colleague at University who found God at 27 (and I don't say it's bad about years). The fact is that she wasn't considered much intelligent even before that...or it is in case of my country, it's pretty weird here when young people are so devoted to God, like they are disturbed or something. Of course, not harsh as I maybe just said. Not to mention others, as adventists...talking about adventists I knew a few VERY BAD examples. Anyway, common people see their religion as a sect. Maybe we need more tolerance or more genuine people among the religious ones.
My grandma was very religious, but I don't find my life meaningless comparing to her. On the contrary.
As far as your attitude about sleeping with someone, I agree with you that you shouldn't do it just like that, but when you are truly in love. What if you could not marry the same at once...but after school and getting a job? Would you sleep with her anyway? Sometimes desire and love are too strong.
Anyway, strange...Do you want to say that you would rather marry a religious christian chinese girl than, for example, a not really religious serbian girl? How marriage functions between your parents regarding their different attitude about faith?
I wouldn't mind to marry someone of another religion, maybe I'm wrong, but, it sounds a little primitive for me. What I do mind is in some way big physical difference...when it's about asian and african people, I do admit, I prefer them to be less black and with less strange face traits. Or to look spiritual at least.
Anyway, strange thing about americans: they are a way much more religious than people in Europe. Look at MTF for example. "In dollar we trust". What is strange: it seems that you have more in common with a certain american muslim I know, than with me (or someone with the same background as your is).:devil:

Yes, I've been there before, a few times. Just wasn't born there or lived there for any great length of time.

No, I will say that life without God is meaningless, because it is. It is a fact, not something "for me." It is not a figment of my imagination or a fact that is only referential to me, which is not a fact but an opinion or an emotion. Life without God is meaningless and that applies to everyone. You may disagree, but that doesn't change the reality.

Now, to the rest of your post, it's quite interesting. You repeatedly insinuate that I/religious people have a defect in intelligence, thinking process, or education. I assure you that I'm of normal intelligence, can reason, and am by most standards adequately educated. You mention Easter, Christmas, slava, etc. and I ask myself why would anyone perform a bunch of rituals unless they meant something? If it really meant nothing in the eternal picture, why didn't your ancestors convert to Islam for a better life? What was the point? To throw away an easier life in the present in exchange for painted eggs, badnjak, zhito, some holy water, icons, and rotting in the ground after death and for it all to end like that? Because all I can say is that if my and your ancestors did not choose a harder life, one of deprivation, humiliations, and even death, for something greater (God), then it was all a pointless exercise, and we might as well have all assimilated into the Turkish people.

Then you tried to connect me with the Adventists, and I'm not an Adventist, so we can stop there. I know that non-Orthodox and non-Catholic Christians are viewed as cultists in Serbia. I've experienced it from my own uncle, and it's really quite idiotic, because he himself doesn't believe in God, yet he knows that the Orthodox are a "true church" whereas I who do believe in God and allow His revealed Word in the Gospels to transform my life, am an alleged cultist. Ridiculous.

As for the scenario you gave, if I can't marry her, then I shouldn't date. That's why I've assumed that way of life. Abstain from dating until capable of marriage; abstain from physical intimacy until married.

Regarding marrying other people, I think the most important thing is that they share the same beliefs as I do. After that come education and culture. As I mentioned before, if I feel that the culture of the other person is very intense and that I won't be able to have an equal footing in the cultural influence of my children, then that's not something I'm interested in. Otherwise, yes, I do feel A LOT closer to Chinese Christian women than to Serbian non-Christian women. That probably sounds funny to you, but I'm really able to *get over* the race thing and look at the spiritual reality.

vucina
12-15-2008, 07:18 PM
I've mentioned it and they look at me like I'm a crazy cultist (see Bascule above). Why shouldn't a Serb be Protestant? Serb is an ethnicity. Protestant is a religious denomination. Ethnicity is a matter of language and cultural identification. Religion is about beliefs. You can have Serb Protestants just like you can have Serb Muslims (in Bosnia and Sandzak).

For me, Orthodoxy is a proud overly-ritualized ethnocultural system empty of true spiritual substance (don't get me wrong, many Protestant denominations are just the same or worse). It is BADLY in need of reformation, just like the Catholic was 500 years ago and indeed still is. Of course, Protestantism is also in need of reformation as well. After a few decades, most "official" religions become tied in a set of rituals and beliefs that aren't scripturally based - and genuine believers need to cast off these traditions and re-derive their faith and practice from the holy texts.

Of course Bascule sees you as a crazy cultist, she's an "orthodox atheist" like most people here. She would think the same about anyone who truly believes in God. And yes, religion isn't tied to your ethnicity, if it wasn't so, we would still worship Perun, Veles, Belobog... But religion has to be connected with truth, and protestantism isn't.For me, Orthodoxy is a proud overly-ritualized ethnocultural system empty of true spiritual substance
They brainwashed you in that sect. Come back to Serbia brother, it's not great atm, but more and more young people are returning to God, and God-willing, when this older communist generation perishes, we will be a christian nation again. America is going down the drain, you must see that.

Bascule
12-15-2008, 07:57 PM
Yes, I've been there before, a few times. Just wasn't born there or lived there for any great length of time.

No, I will say that life without God is meaningless, because it is. It is a fact, not something "for me." It is not a figment of my imagination or a fact that is only referential to me, which is not a fact but an opinion or an emotion. Life without God is meaningless and that applies to everyone. You may disagree, but that doesn't change the reality.

Now, to the rest of your post, it's quite interesting. You repeatedly insinuate that I/religious people have a defect in intelligence, thinking process, or education. I assure you that I'm of normal intelligence, can reason, and am by most standards adequately educated. You mention Easter, Christmas, slava, etc. and I ask myself why would anyone perform a bunch of rituals unless they meant something? If it really meant nothing in the eternal picture, why didn't your ancestors convert to Islam for a better life? What was the point? To throw away an easier life in the present in exchange for painted eggs, badnjak, zhito, some holy water, icons, and rotting in the ground after death and for it all to end like that? Because all I can say is that if my and your ancestors did not choose a harder life, one of deprivation, humiliations, and even death, for something greater (God), then it was all a pointless exercise, and we might as well have all assimilated into the Turkish people.

Then you tried to connect me with the Adventists, and I'm not an Adventist, so we can stop there. I know that non-Orthodox and non-Catholic Christians are viewed as cultists in Serbia. I've experienced it from my own uncle, and it's really quite idiotic, because he himself doesn't believe in God, yet he knows that the Orthodox are a "true church" whereas I who do believe in God and allow His revealed Word in the Gospels to transform my life, am an alleged cultist. Ridiculous.

As for the scenario you gave, if I can't marry her, then I shouldn't date. That's why I've assumed that way of life. Abstain from dating until capable of marriage; abstain from physical intimacy until married.

Regarding marrying other people, I think the most important thing is that they share the same beliefs as I do. After that come education and culture. As I mentioned before, if I feel that the culture of the other person is very intense and that I won't be able to have an equal footing in the cultural influence of my children, then that's not something I'm interested in. Otherwise, yes, I do feel A LOT closer to Chinese Christian women than to Serbian non-Christian women. That probably sounds funny to you, but I'm really able to *get over* the race thing and look at the spiritual reality.

Interesting. I didn't call you a cultist at all, I just tried to explain how it looks like here. Since we lived in socialism, it's still strong feeling among the young people that believing in God is "wasting of time". And they would tell you the strong arguments about it.
I do agree with you that having the religious customs among the non-believers is useless if they don't know the real meaning of that. But, I suppose, some of them are doing it because it's modern lately, some of them because they represent them selves as the good hosts for their guests at dinner, some of them because they truly want to become religious, just don't know how since they were raised in the society where believing in God has been permanently ridiculed or even punished. But, yes, I know two families from my neighborhood where women became the members of adventist church. One of them finished in a prison as a thief, the second one had a son who became a junkie and has been murdered...and she didn't seem much disturbed about it. As I said, bad examples. In the other hand, once, my grandma was invited at the adventist church as a refugee. They gave her a humanitarian help (a package) and it was very nice. I didn't say the evangelists are the same as the adventists (because I don't know much about both of them), I just tried to explain how it looks like here. But, someone else maybe wouldn't agree with me.
What else should I think about you, than to be an ortodox? (When it's default for serbs).
Serbs who became the muslims don't call them selves serbs no more. Catholic serbs also. Not to mention that you have a bosnian language now...as montenegrian...what's ridiculous. Americans still speak english.

Anyway, you didn't say anything about your parents marriage regarding the faith.

And, if you can't marry a girl you want at once, if she becomes your fiancee officially, would it be enough to sleep with her?

When have you been here, for how long, where exactly and how do you feel about it?

It's confusing that true believers (as you, americans) have prejudices about faith of others. I wouldn't mind to marry a person who has different belief. The more important for me is the character and sensibility of that person, the attitude about life in general. I can deal with the faith. I can learn and respect it. I think love should be blind, n'est-ce pas?

And, how exactly my life is meaningless without God? Open my eyes, please.

I didn't say I don't believe. I have my own religion, so to say.

I've heard once from an american believer that non-believers have lack of depth of analyses or lack of intelligence claiming things (the other time). Then, you can understand that for not-so-religious person could be also very strange to meet some very intelligent true believers (except monks who usually speak wise on TV).

Aloimeh
12-15-2008, 09:56 PM
Interesting. I didn't call you a cultist at all, I just tried to explain how it looks like here. Since we lived in socialism, it's still strong feeling among the young people that believing in God is "wasting of time". And they would tell you the strong arguments about it.
I do agree with you that having the religious customs among the non-believers is useless if they don't know the real meaning of that. But, I suppose, some of them are doing it because it's modern lately, some of them because they represent them selves as the good hosts for their guests at dinner, some of them because they truly want to become religious, just don't know how since they were raised in the society where believing in God has been permanently ridiculed or even punished. But, yes, I know two families from my neighborhood where women became the members of adventist church. One of them finished in a prison as a thief, the second one had a son who became a junkie and has been murdered...and she didn't seem much disturbed about it. As I said, bad examples. In the other hand, once, my grandma was invited at the adventist church as a refugee. They gave her a humanitarian help (a package) and it was very nice. I didn't say the evangelists are the same as the adventists (because I don't know much about both of them), I just tried to explain how it looks like here. But, someone else maybe wouldn't agree with me.
What else should I think about you, than to be an ortodox? (When it's default for serbs).
Serbs who became the muslims don't call them selves serbs no more. Catholic serbs also. Not to mention that you have a bosnian language now...as montenegrian...what's ridiculous. Americans still speak english.

Anyway, you didn't say anything about your parents marriage regarding the faith.

And, if you can't marry a girl you want at once, if she becomes your fiancee officially, would it be enough to sleep with her?

When have you been here, for how long, where exactly and how do you feel about it?

It's confusing that true believers (as you, americans) have prejudices about faith of others. I wouldn't mind to marry a person who has different belief. The more important for me is the character and sensibility of that person, the attitude about life in general. I can deal with the faith. I can learn and respect it. I think love should be blind, n'est-ce pas?

And, how exactly my life is meaningless without God? Open my eyes, please.

I didn't say I don't believe. I have my own religion, so to say.

I've heard once from an american believer that non-believers have lack of depth of analyses or lack of intelligence claiming things (the other time). Then, you can understand that for not-so-religious person could be also very strange to meet some very intelligent true believers (except monks who usually speak wise on TV).

OK. As for Adventists, they aren't evangelicals. Their holy day isn't even Sunday, it's Saturday. They're actually perceived as kooky and cultish in the US too. Anyway, I don't want to attack them since I don't know much about them.

See, I disagree that I ought to be Orthodox. The fact that the Muslims decided to be "Bosnian" doesn't change the reality, and it doesn't mean that Serbs should accept the equation Serb = Orthodox. It's ridiculous. I don't know of any European nation like that. There are Catholic and Protestant Germans and the two aren't separate ethnic groups, so I don't see why Serbs or Greeks or Russians or any other predominantly Orthodox nation should make the claim of XXXX ethnicity = Orthodox. It's ridiculous.

Re: parents' marriage. Yes, there have been differences due to a clash of faiths, or rather Christianity and atheism. Hence my decision to avoid this by not marrying a non-Christian.

If a girl becomes my fiancee and I've waited for years (decades?) of my life until that point, I can wait until after the wedding to "seal the deal."

I was on visits to Serbia maybe 4 times. I've seen a bit of Belgrade, the Kragujevac, and Nis-Sokobanja (only once) areas. Don't want to get more specific than that.

Re: your own religion, what is it? Please don't tell me you're "spiritual." It sounds like you don't really believe in God so I'd like to know what your religion is.

Re: meaningless life. Yes, I think if, at the end of your life, you can't say that anything you did will have an eternal meaning, then yes, that's a meaningless life. It's a transient existence. I don't think any of the things most people live for - career, family, art, sport, nation, etc. even relationships with other people - are going survive death. Only the relationship with God and the fruits of that relationship can survive death.

Bascule
12-16-2008, 12:54 AM
OK. As for Adventists, they aren't evangelicals. Their holy day isn't even Sunday, it's Saturday. They're actually perceived as kooky and cultish in the US too. Anyway, I don't want to attack them since I don't know much about them.

See, I disagree that I ought to be Orthodox. The fact that the Muslims decided to be "Bosnian" doesn't change the reality, and it doesn't mean that Serbs should accept the equation Serb = Orthodox. It's ridiculous. I don't know of any European nation like that. There are Catholic and Protestant Germans and the two aren't separate ethnic groups, so I don't see why Serbs or Greeks or Russians or any other predominantly Orthodox nation should make the claim of XXXX ethnicity = Orthodox. It's ridiculous.

Re: parents' marriage. Yes, there have been differences due to a clash of faiths, or rather Christianity and atheism. Hence my decision to avoid this by not marrying a non-Christian.

If a girl becomes my fiancee and I've waited for years (decades?) of my life until that point, I can wait until after the wedding to "seal the deal."

I was on visits to Serbia maybe 4 times. I've seen a bit of Belgrade, the Kragujevac, and Nis-Sokobanja (only once) areas. Don't want to get more specific than that.

Re: your own religion, what is it? Please don't tell me you're "spiritual." It sounds like you don't really believe in God so I'd like to know what your religion is.

Re: meaningless life. Yes, I think if, at the end of your life, you can't say that anything you did will have an eternal meaning, then yes, that's a meaningless life. It's a transient existence. I don't think any of the things most people live for - career, family, art, sport, nation, etc. even relationships with other people - are going survive death. Only the relationship with God and the fruits of that relationship can survive death.

Since the holy day for adventists is saturday, in the common language people call them "subotari", as you probably already know. I can't say nothing bad for them in general, since they were nice to me, gave me the New testament and gave my grandma a package. Nobody asked from us to convert because of that.:) Yes, it was a little strange, we had to listen to their priest for a while. Anyway, few of some people I knew joined them probably because of fashion or whatever, mostly lunatics, so it just made me very reserved about them. I know evangelists are "official" christians, but I don't understand YOUR attitude: "Why I ought to be ortodox. Ridiculous." Of course it was very normal to think of you as an ortodox, since most of the serbs are ortodox by birth. What should I think else, tell me? What statistic tells you anyway? How could I ever presume your attitude about faith you showed today, when it's not something I've heard from someone with the serbian background before? Why is it strange for you that serbs are still ortodox, when it became the part of our folklor, our history and culture. Of course, it's your choice what you will believe in. But, it seems for an american hard to accept the facts about european ethnicity and culture when over there is all mixed up. Yet, with so many nationalities, so many religions, you are still more bigoted in general regarding marriage for example. It's something hard to understand about America since one can have a feeling how tolerance and brotherhood flower over there. An born american I know married a person from his father native country (and that community is maybe 1% of american population). Than he tried to equal the fact that I once married a serb...so we should be the same in that analysis. But we are not, since I had no much choice to marry anyone else even if I wanted to when most of the men around me were the (ortodox) serbs. So it's not the same. And because of that attitude I'm disappointed in americans. Me, the "serbtard", the "nationalist" and the "blood-thirsty" vamp woman. I must admit that it's somehow offended for me if someone wants something from me in one way, but have prejudices about my faith, nationality, gender, or whatever...in other way. Like I am good for this, but never for that? I'd better then be good for nothing at all. And what make them to have such prejudices? Religion the mostly. Or, let's not blame the faith cause it has to be something sublime, something what should spread the love and tolerance, but blame the people who take it in a wrong way...making closed religious groups, making wars, killing in the name of the religion. By taking the religion in the wrong way, seems that religion was the main factor of all the wars on Balcan more or less, even when Balcan people were not the main protagonists. Here (before the last war) you could find a lot of mixed marriage couples during the socialistic ex Yugoslavia. And those couples functioned like any other couple with the same faith, simply because religion was not the most important issue for the individuals here in that period. The conclusion?
It's ridiculous. I don't know of any European nation like that. There are Catholic and Protestant Germans and the two aren't separate ethnic groups
What is ridiculous for real is that you know a lot about it and still pull this question. It's also ridiculous for me if one change the religion to change the ethnicity automatically. But, are the serbs the one to be blamed for this? Those people didn't change their religion with their free will or because it's "cool" as they could today. They were pushed to do this to survive the hard historical conditions and the terms of the conquerors. And because of all this circumstances it was easy for someone from outside to separate them from the native ethnicity, since it was not popular among the ones who refused to do the same (and make their surviving easier). And, yes, Pakistans are nothing but muslim Indians, right?
You are educated and intelligent, opened for the different type of the discussion. But still very young, speaking theoretical about life, not experiencing it yet, mostly knowing about life from the books. We've all been there already.
What do I believe in? I wouldn't call myself an atheist but not even a believer in a classical way. It's philosophical questions about identity, like in the poem "I don't know who I am" written by Bulleh-Shah. What else, when I was raised up stretched between two concepts?
at the end of your life, you can't say that anything you did will have an eternal meaning, then yes, that's a meaningless life. It's a transient existence. I don't think any of the things most people live for - career, family, art, sport, nation, etc. even relationships with other people - are going survive death. Only the relationship with God and the fruits of that relationship can survive death.
Wow! I'm not that smart.:angel:
I wouldn't mind if my children would be everything what would "survive my death". Cause in their eyes, in their smile I see my God.:) And listen to his commandments by this.
What else could you expect to hear from a mediocre middle-aged housewife?:cool: And what else can we leave behind us, but the new people. Isn't that the point of our lives at the end? Maybe it sounds too trivial at your age?
Can you tell more about your impressions of people you met here? Have you met someone interesting for conversation or worth of being friend with?

Aloimeh
12-16-2008, 03:13 AM
Since the holy day for adventists is saturday, in the common language people call them "subotari", as you probably already know. I can't say nothing bad for them in general, since they were nice to me, gave me the New testament and gave my grandma a package. Nobody asked from us to convert because of that.:) Yes, it was a little strange, we had to listen to their priest for a while. Anyway, few of some people I knew joined them probably because of fashion or whatever, mostly lunatics, so it just made me very reserved about them. I know evangelists are "official" christians, but I don't understand YOUR attitude: "Why I ought to be ortodox. Ridiculous." Of course it was very normal to think of you as an ortodox, since most of the serbs are ortodox by birth. What should I think else, tell me? What statistic tells you anyway? How could I ever presume your attitude about faith you showed today, when it's not something I've heard from someone with the serbian background before? Why is it strange for you that serbs are still ortodox, when it became the part of our folklor, our history and culture. Of course, it's your choice what you will believe in. But, it seems for an american hard to accept the facts about european ethnicity and culture when over there is all mixed up. Yet, with so many nationalities, so many religions, you are still more bigoted in general regarding marriage for example. It's something hard to understand about America since one can have a feeling how tolerance and brotherhood flower over there. An born american I know married a person from his father native country (and that community is maybe 1% of american population). Than he tried to equal the fact that I once married a serb...so we should be the same in that analysis. But we are not, since I had no much choice to marry anyone else even if I wanted to when most of the men around me were the (ortodox) serbs. So it's not the same. And because of that attitude I'm disappointed in americans. Me, the "serbtard", the "nationalist" and the "blood-thirsty" vamp woman. I must admit that it's somehow offended for me if someone wants something from me in one way, but have prejudices about my faith, nationality, gender, or whatever...in other way. Like I am good for this, but never for that? I'd better then be good for nothing at all. And what make them to have such prejudices? Religion the mostly. Or, let's not blame the faith cause it has to be something sublime, something what should spread the love and tolerance, but blame the people who take it in a wrong way...making closed religious groups, making wars, killing in the name of the religion. By taking the religion in the wrong way, seems that religion was the main factor of all the wars on Balcan more or less, even when Balcan people were not the main protagonists. Here (before the last war) you could find a lot of mixed marriage couples during the socialistic ex Yugoslavia. And those couples functioned like any other couple with the same faith, simply because religion was not the most important issue for the individuals here in that period. The conclusion?

1.) I didn't know about the Adventists being called subotari. Thanks for letting me know. I can understand why you would think Protestants are off. Everyone goes their own way, the churches don't look like "proper" churches, and the aesthetic cannot compare to being part of 2000 continuous years of tradition centered in Constantinople (or Rome, as the case may be). Trust me, these things have bothered ME about the Protestant movement. The "dryness" of the churches is disturbing, and sometimes there really is a lack of appreciation for what is aesthetic. I have attended Orthodox services a few times and I have to say that the sermon has always been below any decent standard. I really think the priests are not properly trained and do not even truly understand *the Orthodox* interpretation of Christianity, much less scriptural exegesis. So, if I get no spiritual "bread" from the church, how can I continue to attend? And don't get me started on icons - I think they're idolatrous and I'm not the first one to have thought so.

I was not shocked that you assumed I was Orthodox - it's only normal. However, there are all kinds of people in the US - Serb Protestants included. I actually know a Jewish Protestant woman and no I'm not kidding. It is not strange to me that most Serbs are nominally Orthodox. Actually, I'd rather more of them picked up a Bible and read it in their church, instead of just doing the slava-Easter-Christmas thing and calling that a religion.

As for marriage, you asked about my parents' and I said there were difficulties. So, I may not have experienced a strained marriage myself but I have observed one strained by religious differences, so I don't want to go into that. That's why I would never marry a Muslim, Jew, Catholic, Orthodox, Buddhist, etc. woman. Because even if we agree in all things and each person does his/her own religion, a conflict will always arise over the children. My father did not make a fight to have his kids atheist, so that was not an issue. But I know of a case of a Christian woman who married a Jewish man and he made the kids grow up Jewish (even though according to Jewish law, with a German Christian mother those children are not Jewish), and in the end she abandoned her own faith and became Jewish herself. It is an ugly picture when her German Christian parents would like to spend Christmas with their only grandchildren (only from this daughter) and the parents drag them off to Florida to spend their Christmas with the Jewish grandparents. The father even basically threatened them that he would never leave the grandchildren alone with them if they so much as mentioned the name of Jesus. And you know what: he was not religious AT ALL before they got married. He said he didn't care about religion and even spent Christmas with the girl's parents before they married. However, shortly after their marriage, he "discovered" his Judaism and made their daughter and grandchildren devout Jews too.

I also saw a case in my church of an Indian man married to a white woman. They were both said to be Christian. However, the Indian man's parents were angry that his wife was a white woman. They were "Christian" too (although you wouldn't know from their behavior). They pushed their son on and on and on to leave his wife (with whom he had been married over 10 years and had 3 children!) and to marry an Indian woman. Just this year, after a bitter divorce, he left his white wife and his three children and went across the US to live with his parents and remarried almost immediately to an Indian woman of their choosing. We are talking about a man in his 40s leaving his family to follow his parents' idiotic wishes. So, in that case, the Indian culture and the demands of his parents were strong enough to overcome the fact that he was tied to a wife and three children and was an alleged Christian.

So, my pickiness in marriage is not based on bigotry. It is based on the realization that unless religion and culture (to a certain degree) match up, there can be great difficulties and conflict in marriage and that's something I don't care for.

The causes of the wars in the Balkans are something for another discussion, but I would not say that genuine religion (at least not on the part of true Christians) was responsible for it. Of course, the Catholic Church and Islamic groups were major agitators, but what enabled people to become so vicious was historical memory, greed, fear, etc. not religious ideologies.

What is ridiculous for real is that you know a lot about it and still pull this question. It's also ridiculous for me if one change the religion to change the ethnicity automatically. But, are the serbs the one to be blamed for this? Those people didn't change their religion with their free will or because it's "cool" as they could today. They were pushed to do this to survive the hard historical conditions and the terms of the conquerors. And because of all this circumstances it was easy for someone from outside to separate them from the native ethnicity, since it was not popular among the ones who refused to do the same (and make their surviving easier). And, yes, Pakistans are nothing but muslim Indians, right?
You are educated and intelligent, opened for the different type of the discussion. But still very young, speaking theoretical about life, not experiencing it yet, mostly knowing about life from the books. We've all been there already.
What do I believe in? I wouldn't call myself an atheist but not even a believer in a classical way. It's philosophical questions about identity, like in the poem "I don't know who I am" written by Bulleh-Shah. What else, when I was raised up stretched between two concepts?

I don't think that Muslim and Catholic Serbs should have been considered different ethnic groups. But, unfortunately, due to the nature of the Ottoman empire (and most Muslim empires in general), and also the predations of the Catholic church in the form of certain Slovene and Croat "missionaries" that were criss-crossing Dalmatia and Slavonia in the 19th century, all non-Orthodox Serbs practically became something else - Croats, "Muslims," "Bosniaks."

Yes, I consider Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans, and Indians essentially part of a single multi-linguistic culture which has been torn asunder by religion. Originally, they were all united by Dravidian or Indic branch of Indo-European languages and Hinduism, but with the entry of Islam and with the development of Buddhism on Sri Lanka, and with the divide-and-conquer tactics of the British, this all broke apart, in much the same way that Serbs have been divided into different peoples on the basis of religion. It's a great tragedy in my view.

Wow! I'm not that smart.:angel:
I wouldn't mind if my children would be everything what would "survive my death". Cause in their eyes, in their smile I see my God.:) And listen to his commandments by this.
What else could you expect to hear from a mediocre middle-aged housewife?:cool: And what else can we leave behind us, but the new people. Isn't that the point of our lives at the end? Maybe it sounds too trivial at your age?
Can you tell more about your impressions of people you met here? Have you met someone interesting for conversation or worth of being friend with?

I do not look down on "mediocre middle-aged housewives," and I actually think investing in children is a more noble pursuit than a selfish career. On the other hand, it just takes it one step further. What's to be of the children? They invest in their children? It can't be that the only purpose of human life is propagating itself from generation to generation and then dying? Can you accept that?

Impressions of people: I can't tell you much since my visits have always been very short and very focused on my relatives. I did not go around to see places in Serbia, like churches, castles, parks, etc. which I would like to very much one day. Most of the time I spend in my great aunt's small apartment talking to her or in my uncle's home talking to him and his wife and children and my grandmother. I visited my grandfather in Soko Banja when he was alive, but he died since. My overall impression is that Serbian people are 1.) very conscious, even painfully conscious, of history and carry it like a weight inside of them; 2.) polite to you when you are in their home and treat you like an honored guest. I can relate one relevant experience: we wanted to find out if we had any relatives of my mother's branch in the Morava valley, and we set out to the village in which my great great grandmother lived. We found a family of the same name, but they knew nothing about a connection to us. They told us the origin of the name. Apparently, my great great great great grandmother was from Kursumlija and her daughter was a beautiful woman whom a Turk wanted and when he was refused he ***** her and then her brother (of the girl) killed the Turk and then the whole family had to flee (this was before the 1st Serbian Uprising), so they fled to the Morava valley and dropped the surname and modified the great great great great grandmother's first name to a new surname. So this family was very kind to total strangers that we were - offering us something to eat, coffee, etc.. We would never expect such kindness in America or most other countries. And before that, as we were finding our way through the village to this family, we asked another family for directions and they invited us in and offered us coffee and something to eat and talked to us, who were total strangers to them. So this hospitality of the Serbs is something I greatly admire, and I see it in my mother very much. 3.) rather brusque and unpleasant on the street in more formal/business/public transportation situations. Many Americans are this way but more polished, even in New York city. 4.) overly proud and bitter with regard to their origins, religion, history, etc. It is not the sort of bombastic attitude that Americans have which is more rooted in ignorance of the rest of the world, it is more of a self-pitying/self-satisfied attitude that they have been around long enough and that they don't need advice or opinions from others. I have seen this attitude in other (more) ancient peoples like Jews, Armenians, Greeks, Iranians, Indians, Chinese, etc. who are in some way past their prime and feel a need to remind you (the American) that their culture/history is much older than yours and that there was a time when they were a great empire/sophisticated civilization and "you" were nothing, etc. Again, I can't pretend to "know" the Serbs. The fact is there are things about them I prefer to "typical Americans" and there are things about "typical Americans" that I prefer to Serbs. So I try to pick and choose what I feel is best and that's why I'm an outcast in both cultures.

vucina
12-16-2008, 10:25 AM
1.) I have attended Orthodox services a few times and I have to say that the sermon has always been below any decent standard. I really think the priests are not properly trained and do not even truly understand *the Orthodox* interpretation of Christianity, much less scriptural exegesis. So, if I get no spiritual "bread" from the church, how can I continue to attend? And don't get me started on icons - I think they're idolatrous and I'm not the first one to have thought so.



So you you think you know better than our ancestors, and that you're a better christian than St.Sava.? Just because you have a crappy priest in your area, doesn't mean you should become a heretic. Our ancestors have kept our faith alive for 500 years, enduring impossible, so you can spit on it, and join a sect where women are priests, and sodomites marry. Just think about it.
You know, you can read The Bible as an orthodox, too.

Stensland
12-16-2008, 11:37 AM
aloimeh, given the way you conduct yourself, i'm fairly sure if your parents had not emigrated to the states but stayed somewhere in europe (say britain, germany or the netherlands), you'd have become an atheist (or agnostic). it's the surroundings that make you and apparently religion, being a major part of the american way of life, has shaped you more than you might think.

i still don't understand the "no sex until marriage" thing or the "no date unless marriage material" phrase. that seems, sorry, a little dumb and retarded to me. not you, but the antics themselves. where in the states do you live again?

could you explain the culture thing a bit? you've been alluding to cultural differences a lot, but from my point of view it seems a bit exaggerating. evangelicans, protestants, atheists - they all are about 95% the same anyways over here. where do you see major differences? most of the time i wouldn't even notice stuff like that, to be honest. i think you're setting up fictitious barriers there. if you love some girl (btw i take it it must be love at first sight for you in order to date her, right? after all, you won't date her at all if you don't love her and think about getting married, making babies right when you see her, right?), who cares about religious denomination? i myself couldn't care less.

generally i think you're being much too harsh on yourself. it takes away lots of interesting things in your life while you're gaining basically close to nothing, as imagination doesn't count in my world.

Aloimeh
12-16-2008, 11:59 AM
So you you think you know better than our ancestors, and that you're a better christian than St.Sava.? Just because you have a crappy priest in your area, doesn't mean you should become a heretic. Our ancestors have kept our faith alive for 500 years, enduring impossible, so you can spit on it, and join a sect where women are priests, and sodomites marry. Just think about it.
You know, you can read The Bible as an orthodox, too.

Our ancestors only had what they knew and that was either the Greek Orthodox or the Roman Catholics and of the two they chose the less bad one.

And by the way, haven't you heard of iconoclasm? The Byzantines were arguing about it in the 8th century! The idea that icons are idolatrous is not new. They were controversial from the begin because of Old Testament injunctions against the creation and veneration of images (which Jews and Muslims still observe but Christians somehow ignored). Just because the iconodules ultimately won doesn't mean that the opposing camp is without theological basis.

I don't know anything about St. Sava's Christianity.

I don't have a crappy priest in *my* area. I've seen this in every area I've been in the US. In Oakland, California, an actual church service was cancelled entirely because one of the congregation had a slava. Who ever heard of such a thing - cancelling a Sunday service because it would prevent the effective preparation of a non-christian holiday?

I have not "joined a sect where women are priests and sodomites marry." Those are Anglicans and Methodists and perhaps other liberal branches of Protestantism, and I think they're terribly in error. I have never attended a specific church with women priests or gay clergy or marriage or even a church that was part of a denomination that allows such things. So don't lump me with these kinds of things. Protestant denominations are very diverse - Baptists and many Presbyterians tend to be much more conservative.

Aloimeh
12-16-2008, 12:42 PM
aloimeh, given the way you conduct yourself, i'm fairly sure if your parents had not emigrated to the states but stayed somewhere in europe (say britain, germany or the netherlands), you'd have become an atheist (or agnostic). it's the surroundings that make you and apparently religion, being a major part of the american way of life, has shaped you more than you might think.

i still don't understand the "no sex until marriage" thing or the "no date unless marriage material" phrase. that seems, sorry, a little dumb and retarded to me. not you, but the antics themselves. where in the states do you live again?

could you explain the culture thing a bit? you've been alluding to cultural differences a lot, but from my point of view it seems a bit exaggerating. evangelicans, protestants, atheists - they all are about 95% the same anyways over here. where do you see major differences? most of the time i wouldn't even notice stuff like that, to be honest. i think you're setting up fictitious barriers there. if you love some girl (btw i take it it must be love at first sight for you in order to date her, right? after all, you won't date her at all if you don't love her and think about getting married, making babies right when you see her, right?), who cares about religious denomination? i myself couldn't care less.

generally i think you're being much too harsh on yourself. it takes away lots of interesting things in your life while you're gaining basically close to nothing, as imagination doesn't count in my world.

1.) Perhaps. But nobody knows what would have been. I think that my soul thirsts after something greater in life. I've never been content with things like career, education, relationships, etc. I'm sure I would search for God, but I don't know if I would find him.

2.) You make much of Americans being religious. Trust me, most Americans of MY CIRCLE, i.e. those in the medical profession, science, young people in their 20s are very NOT RELIGIOUS. If you go to any church, the largest group of people will be middle aged people with grown up children and the elderly. So, I'm definitely not fitting within a demographic mold. If churches were littered with young single women my age I might have already gotten married by now and that clearly hasn't happened.

3.) The no sex before marriage thing works like this. Sex is the physical connection of the marriage. It consumates the marriage and in some ways IS the marriage before God. The ceremony's purpose is to attest to the physical bond between man and woman openly in front of the community. That's why I take sex incredibly seriously: because in a sense, you have an insoluble bond to whomever you've ever had sex with. It should therefore be only in marriage and not just something for fun. As for dating, I said that dating should be predicated on the capability of both partners of marriage. I think at this point if I were dating someone and wanted to get married, I would be in a good position to propose and get married. That was not the case when I was 15 and that was not the case when I was 18 either. That's why dating made no sense at 15 or 18, unless I wanted to drag it out over 5 years without any physical intimacy whatsoever, and I've never heard of anyone doing such a thing - it's probably impossible!

I have only ever lived in the more "sophisticated" parts of the US, as the Europeans will understand it. San Francisco, California, center of US liberalism and the gay movement. In the vicinity of New York City (less than 1 hour away) in an area that was predominantly Catholic and Jewish (few Protestants, actually). New England, close to Vermont and Boston, some of the most liberal parts of the US. So I have not lived in the backward, "Bible-belt" parts of the country where being a Christian is easy. I have lived in areas and worked in a field where it is difficult to be a vocal Christian.

The culture bit: I explained the Jewish-Christian and Indian man-white woman marriages above. In my case, I was pondering the possibility of a Chinese Christian medical student who is my age (one year behind me in medical school). I did not have a problem with her race/ethnicity. But after observing for a few weeks (I had not asked her out), I noticed just how big on being Chinese she was. She was not really an integrated American, even less integrated than myself. It was Chinese this and Chinese that. I may seem Serbian on this forum, but in real life I am not particularly vocal about my culture and it doesn't form a huge part of my life outside the home. I do not attend Serbian club, organization of Serbian Americans, Serbian festivals, etc. But this girl, who is otherwise pretty level headed, very intelligent and accomplished, was almost more Chinese than American. And she, like I, was born in the US. So I realized at that moment that certain cultures (at least in the US) are more "intense" than others. I would say the most neutral are northwestern Europeans like yourself (with the exception of perhaps the Irish and Scottish), who seem to have the least sense of ethnic identity in the US. As you go south and east, the culture becomes more powerful. Italians, Poles, Russians, Serbs, Greeks, Portuguese, etc. in the US have a more "intense" culture than the northwest Europeans. It means more to them, they associate more with that, whereas I've never seen German or English or Dutch Americans going on and on about their ethnicity. As you go further south and east, it gets more "intense" with Armenians, Arabs, Persians, Jews, Turks, etc. being quite strongly identified with their culture in the US, even after 2-4 generations.

I think I could definitely deal with the cultural intensity of Europeans and maybe Middle Easterners in a partnership. Although Middle Eastern culture is quite intense in its own way, it bears enough similarity to Serbian culture that the two could probably blend. But I think the Indian, Chinese, Japanese, and most Asian and African cultures are too different and in their own way intense that it would be difficult to make a blend where both would weigh evenly. I think my children would grow up barely known their father's origins and really carrying very little of that, and being essentially culturally identified entirely with their mother - which is likely anyway since the mother is typically the primary caregiver and if she stays at home and I'm in the medical profession, clearly we will not have equal face time with the kids.

So this culture talk has nothing to do with religion. Christianity is the bare minimum. I also discussed culture to explain this other issue.

As for dating, I never said it has to be "love at first sight," only that it must be dating with a possibility of marriage. For my part, I have not been ready until now. Which means that the girl must be a Christian and if I don't know I need to find out very soon within the first or second date. If I find out she isn't Christian or isn't open to the possibility of marriage, then that relationship is over. Of course, there are other things I look for - someone who is "officially" a Christian can have a terrible personality, completely different interests, etc. and it won't work in that case either.

Stensland
12-16-2008, 12:59 PM
2.) You make much of Americans being religious. Trust me, most Americans of MY CIRCLE, i.e. those in the medical profession, science, young people in their 20s are very NOT RELIGIOUS.

i didn't actually mean that every american is religious, but rather that religion itself is a big deal in america. there are people like bill maher who's built a whole career around religion (or non-religion, if you will), there are tv pastors making dozens of millions per year, numerous denominations, heck, "christian warriors" like o'reilly and whatnot. it doesn't mean that religion plays such a large role in the daily routines of every single average american, but the topic itself, in all of its forms, is much more ubiquitous than in western europe. religion is virtually non-existent in the media over here and i think, speakiny only for myself, the religious believe of a girl i'd like to date is probably one of the last things i'd be thinking about.

so therefore it makes sense for americans to think about religion as a major "theme" in their life, as you've obviously done pretty early on. while in the u.s. christianity has surged again in the 90s (and probably conitnued to do so under bush), churches are being torn down over here all over the place.

so let me ask you this: given you meet the perfect match and the only thing she's "missing" is the religious denomination you're looking for (be it an agnostic or whatever). would you let her go? and do you believe love is something you can force upon yourself? given you just fall in love with a girl who has little in common with your shared beliefs - you'd nonetheless break up with her or refrain from asking her out?


3.) The no sex before marriage thing works like this. Sex is the physical connection of the marriage. It consumates the marriage and in some ways IS the marriage before God. The ceremony's purpose is to attest to the physical bond between man and woman openly in front of the community. That's why I take sex incredibly seriously: because in a sense, you have an insoluble bond to whomever you've ever had sex with. It should therefore be only in marriage and not just something for fun.


are you mike huckabee? :confused:

as i said before, in contrast to what i believed earlier: we really live in very different worlds, buddy. concerning the whole religion thing, i hardly agree with anything you say. you're making your life quite miserable on purpose; you won't even believe what your current attitude has cost you so far. but what the hell, do what you think is right. :wavey:

Aloimeh
12-16-2008, 01:25 PM
i didn't actually mean that every american is religious, but rather that religion itself is a big deal in america. there are people like bill maher who's built a whole career around religion (or non-religion, if you will), there are tv pastors making dozens of millions per year, numerous denominations, heck, "christian warriors" like o'reilly and whatnot. it doesn't mean that religion plays such a large role in the daily routines of every single average american, but the topic itself, in all of its forms, is much more ubiquitous than in western europe. religion is virtually non-existent in the media over here and i think, speakiny only for myself, the religious believe of a girl i'd like to date is probably one of the last things i'd be thinking about.

so let me ask you this: given you meet the perfect match and the only thing she's "missing" is the religious denomination you're looking for (be it an agnostic or whatever). would you let her go? and do you believe love is something you can force upon yourself? given you just fall in love with a girl who has little in common with your shared beliefs - you'd nonetheless break up with her?

so therefore it makes sense for americans to think about religion as a major "theme" in their life, as you've obviously done pretty early on. while in the u.s. christianity has surged again in the 90s (and probably conitnued to do so under bush), churches are being torn down over here all over the place.

It's true that religion is much more prominent than I take it is in Western Europe. Europe is generally more liberal than America, so it's only natural that traditional religion which is antithetical to liberalism is dying out. I think it's very sad that it's dying out but clearly the geographic center of gravity of Chrisianity has moved far outside of Europe and even perhaps out of America as well.

Your question is an easy one to flippantly answer, but if I actually put myself in that position, certainly I think it would be a struggle. On the other hand, I have precisely sought to NOT put myself in this position by refusing to date a non-Christian. No dating > no falling in love. Love cannot be forced, but I think the concept of love as something that just happens is a false one. I also do not think love should be the only prerequisite of marriage. Most marriages begin with something that is love or looks like love and many end in unhappiness and divorce. Why? Because they are poor matches - because certain criteria which would ensure a good match have not been met. This sounds incredibly mundane and boring and it does take out the ideas of romance from a marriage, but let us say you are matched in your interests, personalities, and are incredibly attracted to each other physically. What if you marry a woman who ends up wanting an 80 hour work week high-power career and no children, and you want four children and your wife to stay at home and take care of them. Or, let's say you have kids and you want them atheist and culturally German but your wife wants them to go to the mosque every Friday and speaks Turkish to them when they're growing up, and you're worried that your children will end up being nothing like you. There's all these practical issues that "love" just tramples but the issues are very real and it's dangerous to ignore them before the marriage because they will show up later on. I think marriage is a practical partnership. There needs to be love and respect, but there also needs to be some sort of common beliefs, moral values, plan for a family, vision of careers vs. family life vs. role of the parents/in-laws, etc.

are you mike huckabee? :confused:

as i said before, in contrast to what i believed earlier: we really live in very different worlds, buddy. concerning the whole religion thing, i hardly agree with anything you say. you're making your life quite miserable on purpose; you won't even believe what your current attitude has cost you so far. but what the hell, do what you think is right. :wavey:

Yes, I won't pretend that it has been easy seeing seemingly happy couples walking down the streets holding hands and kissing; a pang of envy has struck me to the heart almost every time. It is not the physical intimacy that I desire most (although I can't deny that it would be wonderful), but the emotional intimacy that's lacking. But this is the life I choose because I hope things will ultimately turn out for the better this way. And if I never marry, well, so be it - it was not in God's will.

Bascule
12-17-2008, 11:07 PM
aloimeh, given the way you conduct yourself, i'm fairly sure if your parents had not emigrated to the states but stayed somewhere in europe (say britain, germany or the netherlands), you'd have become an atheist (or agnostic). it's the surroundings that make you and apparently religion, being a major part of the american way of life, has shaped you more than you might think.

i still don't understand the "no sex until marriage" thing or the "no date unless marriage material" phrase. that seems, sorry, a little dumb and retarded to me. not you, but the antics themselves. where in the states do you live again?

could you explain the culture thing a bit? you've been alluding to cultural differences a lot, but from my point of view it seems a bit exaggerating. evangelicans, protestants, atheists - they all are about 95% the same anyways over here. where do you see major differences? most of the time i wouldn't even notice stuff like that, to be honest. i think you're setting up fictitious barriers there. if you love some girl (btw i take it it must be love at first sight for you in order to date her, right? after all, you won't date her at all if you don't love her and think about getting married, making babies right when you see her, right?), who cares about religious denomination? i myself couldn't care less.

generally i think you're being much too harsh on yourself. it takes away lots of interesting things in your life while you're gaining basically close to nothing, as imagination doesn't count in my world.

I agree with you. I don't see much difference among the (mostly young) people in Europe in general, what is very promising for the future.

Bascule
12-18-2008, 01:05 AM
1.) I didn't know about the Adventists being called subotari.
Yes, "subotari" are not very popular, but you could find here all types of religions if you would try very hard. Simply, young people love to experiment, since they love to travel, and they find that certain type of religion could be very "cool" or "extra" (what was very popular word lately among young people who don't have a basic language fond), especially those religions coming from the "mystic east". Did you know that cool (kul) in the language of Gypsies means "shit"? It was very popular joke at the moment when a CERTAIN communist party (JUL) had a parole: JUL is cool.:)...since we have a large gypsy community over here. Mentioning the gypsies, it's interesting, they took our names and religion, but not a way of life. The great majority of them still speak their language and live like vagabonds, except very few of them who finished any school. Speaking about them and their indian background, what do you know about them historically? And how do you see the resolving of this problem as is their implementation in our society? To force them on education, legal work and to move them from the streets. Have you seen their "masala" in the center of the city, practically (by the river Sava, exactly)? The city government wanted to move this horror out of the town, but they refuse to accept it.

Everyone goes their own way, the churches don't look like "proper" churches, and the aesthetic cannot compare to being part of 2000 continuous years of tradition centered in Constantinople (or Rome, as the case may be). Trust me, these things have bothered ME about the Protestant movement. The "dryness" of the churches is disturbing, and sometimes there really is a lack of appreciation for what is aesthetic. I have attended Orthodox services a few times and I have to say that the sermon has always been below any decent standard. I really think the priests are not properly trained and do not even truly understand *the Orthodox* interpretation of Christianity, much less scriptural exegesis. So, if I get no spiritual "bread" from the church, how can I continue to attend? And don't get me started on icons - I think they're idolatrous and I'm not the first one to have thought so.
Yes, that would probably bother me also. I used to think how the church should have some kind of aesthetic, since I don't see them only as the places where you can reach the God, but as the cultural as well as architectural objects and historical monuments. On the other side, I'm against the luxury at the churches, but still it's more dominant among catholic ones. I also don't like how mosques usually look like on the serbian south, cause I love the beauties and the vivid colors of islamic architecture as far as the old mosques on the asian soil. The "dryness" at churches as looking at the icons as they're idolatrous is specific for the muslims also. I don't care, as far as people could conceive the spiritual experience in those kind of churches, but when I travel abroad, I like to see something really worth of seeing, so in that case either the historical weight of churches either aesthetic or architectural aspects are valued to me. I suppose it's the way you are used on. Although this sounds like a trivial touristic kind of view.
I have attended Orthodox services a few times and I have to say that the sermon has always been below any decent standard. I really think the priests are not properly trained and do not even truly understand *the Orthodox* interpretation of Christianity, much less scriptural exegesis.
Well, you have all kind of priests. I met the very bad ones (and because of them people turned their back to the church) as well as very good ones. But what do you exactly expect from the sermon in our church?
The picture as we see on the american movies with the priest in an "ecstasy" and the black chorus behind him singing and dancing "I'm a soul man" around? I don't find this picture appropriate either.
Where have you exactly attended those services? Here or in the States? It matters.
I still believe that love is above any religion, but if you can control yourself in this way, maybe you lack of passion or sensibility. That's how I see those things. I don't like those practical/religious view. Better to have loved and loose it than to had not loved at all.
What's to be of the children? They invest in their children? It can't be that the only purpose of human life is propagating itself from generation to generation and then dying? Can you accept that?
Funny. Like I am listening to myself a years ago.:) Of course I still can't accept that. But, at the end, everything is reducing at this. Why, anyway, you are planning to get married, but to have the children? I suppose not only for tasting the sex. Why are you planning to marry a woman of the same faith but to raise the kids on the basis of the common religion?
My overall impression is that Serbian people are 1.) very conscious, even painfully conscious, of history and carry it like a weight inside of them;
Very sad, but true, although the young people are not usually in this. This feeling was more dominant during the crises period, i.e. war, than today, what is understandable. Take for example MTF. Remember the thread we had to start after sawan's and glen's comments about serbs. I hope we surpassed this. I know sawan did. But GuGu and P.Antonius - nay!
2.) polite to you when you are in their home and treat you like an honored guest...We would never expect such kindness in America or most other countries. So this hospitality of the Serbs is something I greatly admire, and I see it in my mother very much.
I used to think that those were just polite words of our guests before, but this is very true, and something I am proud about.
3.) rather brusque and unpleasant on the street in more formal/business/public transportation situations. Many Americans are this way but more polished, even in New York city.
Yes.:) They are much more polite at their homes or while they are relaxed in a stroller, than while they are going to work, as by buses, as by cars (I must admit).
4.) overly proud and bitter with regard to their origins, religion, history, etc. It is not the sort of bombastic attitude that Americans have which is more rooted in ignorance of the rest of the world, it is more of a self-pitying/self-satisfied attitude that they have been around long enough and that they don't need advice or opinions from others. I have seen this attitude in other (more) ancient peoples like Jews, Armenians, Greeks, Iranians, Indians, Chinese, etc. who are in some way past their prime and feel a need to remind you (the American) that their culture/history is much older than yours and that there was a time when they were a great empire/sophisticated civilization and "you" were nothing, etc.
Yes, you are just a bunch of pathetic cowboys who didn't even exist while we were eating with the golden spoons.:lol:
Very good. :hatoff:

Aloimeh
12-18-2008, 03:22 AM
Yes, "subotari" are not very popular, but you could find here all types of religions if you would try very hard. Simply, young people love to experiment, since they love to travel, and they find that certain type of religion could be very "cool" or "extra" (what was very popular word lately among young people who don't have a basic language fond), especially those religions coming from the "mystic east". Did you know that cool (kul) in the language of Gypsies means "shit"? It was very popular joke at the moment when a CERTAIN communist party (JUL) had a parole: JUL is cool.:)...since we have a large gypsy community over here. Mentioning the gypsies, it's interesting, they took our names and religion, but not a way of life. The great majority of them still speak their language and live like vagabonds, except very few of them who finished any school. Speaking about them and their indian background, what do you know about them historically? And how do you see the resolving of this problem as is their implementation in our society? To force them on education, legal work and to move them from the streets. Have you seen their "masala" in the center of the city, practically (by the river Sava, exactly)? The city government wanted to move this horror out of the town, but they refuse to accept it.

About the Gypsies, I find them very analogous to the blacks of the USA. There is a tendency to characterize them as inherently stupid or criminal, as many racists do in the US. But I think they definitely have great potential. From what I have read, the Gypsies were a group of Hindus from Rajasthan that fled persecution by the Ghazvanid Muslims of Afghanistan. They fled via Persia, Armenia, the Byzantine Empire, Bulgaria, Romania, and Serbia, and then spread into the West. Of course, some stayed behind in those places and they later penetrated into the Middle East. If you look at their great musical talent and inclination towards emotional expression in this way, although it is characterized as "kitsch" by some, there is something deep there and many classical composers saw that. The fact that they have the same religion and names as the surrounding population is a step towards assimilation and moving up the social ladder. I worry, though, that because of persecution they have developed an insular culture which discourages moving up the social ladder by integrating into the rest of society. Persecuted groups have really two ways of responding - either turn inward and operate completely within your community (e.g. Jews in the ghettos of Europe) or turn inward and take up the sort of work that the rest of community looks down on/turn to crime (Gypsies, US blacks) or stick to your community but educate and better yourself so you outperform your neighbors and prove that you are a worthy person (Jews post Enlightenment, urban Armenians in the Ottoman Empire). Only the complete "parallel" community can turn away persecution. If the minority underperforms and turns to crime, their persecution gets justified by the "facts" of their criminality and if they outperform the majority they risk making them envious and hateful and trying to put quotas on them (Jewish in Tsarist Russia) or killing them (Armenians, Greeks in Ottoman empire, Jews in Nazi Germany and occupied Europe). So it's really very hard. The "best" option is to seamlessly integrate into society so you neither overperform nor underperform to the majority, which is what has happened with a lot of Southern and Eastern European immigrants to the US - they are practically of the same socioeconomic status of 99% of the Anglo-German-Scottish-French earlier immigrants (although the very, very rich elite is still predominantly Anglo-Saxonic). So the Southern and Eastern Europeans have been pretty much accepted into white society.

One must mention that skin color has much to do with the prejudice and can Gypsies ever escape that?

Yes, that would probably bother me also. I used to think how the church should have some kind of aesthetic, since I don't see them only as the places where you can reach the God, but as the cultural as well as architectural objects and historical monuments. On the other side, I'm against the luxury at the churches, but still it's more dominant among catholic ones. I also don't like how mosques usually look like on the serbian south, cause I love the beauties and the vivid colors of islamic architecture as far as the old mosques on the asian soil. The "dryness" at churches as looking at the icons as they're idolatrous is specific for the muslims also. I don't care, as far as people could conceive the spiritual experience in those kind of churches, but when I travel abroad, I like to see something really worth of seeing, so in that case either the historical weight of churches either aesthetic or architectural aspects are valued to me. I suppose it's the way you are used on. Although this sounds like a trivial touristic kind of view.

I agree. Protestant churches in the US are made on a Puritan model. Simple, economic, clean, efficient, etc. but not adorned or luxurious. It's not bad, but it does make a me a little jealous to see the brilliant bright Catholic church next door with stain glass windows whereas my church looks very humble. Of course, God is there wherever believers are and these are just material things. And of course the Catholic church is able to do that because of a lot of looting and manipulating and taxing people to the bone over the last 2000 years, so maybe the Protestant churches aren't so bad after all.

Well, you have all kind of priests. I met the very bad ones (and because of them people turned their back to the church) as well as very good ones. But what do you exactly expect from the sermon in our church?
The picture as we see on the american movies with the priest in an "ecstasy" and the black chorus behind him singing and dancing "I'm a soul man" around? I don't find this picture appropriate either.
Where have you exactly attended those services? Here or in the States? It matters.
I still believe that love is above any religion, but if you can control yourself in this way, maybe you lack of passion or sensibility. That's how I see those things. I don't like those practical/religious view. Better to have loved and loose it than to had not loved at all.

I expect a sermon to teach me about Christ, God, the nature of my faith, to make me turn from sin and hypocrisy that I'm not aware of, etc. The Orthodox sermons I attended were only in the US. I find them very "fluffy," which is to say light and sugary. There's some talk of love, harmony, peace, etc. but not much substance. It's kind of like those churches in the US with women pastors and sodomite marriage (as vucina put it). Those are the Unitarians and their "sermons" are more like fluff dialogs.

What you talk about with the "ecstasy" are the Pentecostals or Charismatics. This is a school of Protestant Christianity that is not correct. There's a lot of crying and smiling and holding up hands and exactly as you said - ecstasy. They also speak in foreign tongues, make prophesies, etc. This is a really wierd movement and this is not the kind of church I like or attend. Apparently, it's very popular in the US, Europe, and Africa, precisely because it isn't "dry." It's very "fresh" but somewhat disturbing to me.

Funny. Like I am listening to myself a years ago.:) Of course I still can't accept that. But, at the end, everything is reducing at this. Why, anyway, you are planning to get married, but to have the children? I suppose not only for tasting the sex. Why are you planning to marry a woman of the same faith but to raise the kids on the basis of the common religion?

Very sad, but true, although the young people are not usually in this. This feeling was more dominant during the crises period, i.e. war, than today, what is understandable. Take for example MTF. Remember the thread we had to start after sawan's and glen's comments about serbs. I hope we surpassed this. I know sawan did. But GuGu and P.Antonius - nay!

Yes, sawan has been "treated." Now move on to GuGu and PA, they are in need of remediation.

I used to think that those were just polite words of our guests before, but this is very true, and something I am proud about.

Yes, I thought so too, but it's quite true. If I went and knocked at a door in a village in the US and asked about X family, they might point a gun at me and tell me to get off their property!

Yes, you are just a bunch of pathetic cowboys who didn't even exist while we were eating with the golden spoons.:lol:
Very good. :hatoff:

One other thing: most Serb young men I've met are very Djokovic-esque - brash and cocky and puffheaded - and I hate it. Do the women like this and are they attracted to it or do they just tolerate it? And does this come from the outside environment or does the family like to raise their children this way?

Stensland
12-18-2008, 03:42 PM
... And if I never marry, well, so be it - it was not in God's will.

see, but that's exactly what i don't like to read from somebody like you. it's what you were denying earlier on, actually: by coming up with such an opinion you pretty much acknowledge the fact that you'd love to put it all on god, if you will. it seems like you're not able to cope with your own responsibility for you life, therefore trying to get that monkey off your back and saying it's somehow "god's will" what happens. but it's not. it's apparently just that you'd like HIM to make decisions for you, even though you know fully well that nobody can interfere with your own life than yourself. "so be it" is the easiest way out for people who don't like to be pro-active and let stuff happen instead of making things happen themselves.

do you really believe when you don't marry it's down to "god's will"? isn't it rather you being unable to come to terms with several things you could easily change if you'd just opened your mind a bit?

Aloimeh
12-19-2008, 04:33 AM
see, but that's exactly what i don't like to read from somebody like you. it's what you were denying earlier on, actually: by coming up with such an opinion you pretty much acknowledge the fact that you'd love to put it all on god, if you will. it seems like you're not able to cope with your own responsibility for you life, therefore trying to get that monkey off your back and saying it's somehow "god's will" what happens. but it's not. it's apparently just that you'd like HIM to make decisions for you, even though you know fully well that nobody can interfere with your own life than yourself. "so be it" is the easiest way out for people who don't like to be pro-active and let stuff happen instead of making things happen themselves.

do you really believe when you don't marry it's down to "god's will"? isn't it rather you being unable to come to terms with several things you could easily change if you'd just opened your mind a bit?

Why do you think your approach is better? Don't you feel a bit shattered emotionally with every long-term, emotionally and physically intimate, relationship that you've had that fell apart? Isn't it said that people "always remember their first love"? Don't you think that couples matching can be done in an "objective" fashion - by looking for agreement of various criteria? The trial and error method seems to me to be too emotionally costly and a waste of time, in the end.

Stensland
12-19-2008, 03:06 PM
Why do you think your approach is better? Don't you feel a bit shattered emotionally with every long-term, emotionally and physically intimate, relationship that you've had that fell apart? Isn't it said that people "always remember their first love"? Don't you think that couples matching can be done in an "objective" fashion - by looking for agreement of various criteria? The trial and error method seems to me to be too emotionally costly and a waste of time, in the end.

sure, but after all it at least is emotional, in contrast to your beaurocratic match-up search. if the "emotionally costly" procedure (excuse love for being emotional :rolleyes: ) isn't getting to you, you might be a supporter of the forced marriage thing in the muslim world - doesn't get more objective than that. and breaking up isn't that easy either.

love is about ups and downs, about longing and human failure. do i feel shattered at times? of course i do. you know, this is what happens in life. you won't have any problems cutting out the downsides, but you're gonna miss the upsides as well. why do i have to teach you about this?

JolánGagó
12-19-2008, 05:19 PM
The trial and error method seems to me to be too emotionally costly and a waste of time, in the end.

Trials and errors is the basic path to learning, it made monkeys into humans. When and if (big if) you'll have your first relationship you'll know nothing of what it means to have a relationship with a loved one. From the very elementary technics of love making up to the very complicated issues of sharing a space and a common life your knowledge will be zero, nill, nothing.

On other hand it isn't that easy to find that significant other you fall in love and would like to share a life with, on top of that you put very unrealistic requirements regarding lack of experience, shared religion and so on... :rolleyes:

I wish I was wrong but I predict you'll either stay celibate for the rest of your life or just dump part or a whole of that screenplay and then you'll regret all the time lost.

scarecrows
12-19-2008, 06:47 PM
4.) Mostly likely internal medicine residency (3 years) followed by fellowships in hematology/oncology (3 years) and infectious diseases (2 years). It is a little unorthodox to do two fellowships following medicine, not least because the income in fellowship is so much lower than in practice, but I find both of the fields incredibly interesting and useful. Not pretending that I'm ignoring the money, but if I was interested in the best money for the least work, I'd do radiation oncology, dermatology, or radiology. These specialties require superb board scores (I fortunately have very good board scores at the moment) and research (which I also have), so I could probably match into one of them, but I have no interest in radiation, reading films, or dealing with skin. So, I think I'll go into what interests me and the income will be perfectly respectable anyway.

interesting

Oncology and hematology would have been my last choices, actually I would have waited another year rather than picking one of those

Stensland
12-19-2008, 10:25 PM
I wish I was wrong but I predict you'll either stay celibate for the rest of your life or just dump part or a whole of that screenplay and then you'll regret all the time lost.

i agree with you, good point.

i think what aloimeh is afraid of is feelings. he'd like the whole scenario to be handled like a business deal, even though it's got nothing in common with signing papers, marrying in a church or seemingly needed similarities betweem two people. so when he talks about being "emotionally shattered", he obviously would love to prevent sadness - but doesn't take all the happiness into consideration that people share beforehand. letting yourself go has nothing to do with showing weakness, and it seems like aloimeh is desperately trying to avoid any sort of emotion whatsoever.

it's absolutely ok to blow your composure from time to time, buddy, just let it out. :wavey: if you suppress it, it'll come back haunting ya via an early heart attack or cancer.

Aloimeh
12-19-2008, 10:41 PM
Trials and errors is the basic path to learning, it made monkeys into humans. When and if (big if) you'll have your first relationship you'll know nothing of what it means to have a relationship with a loved one. From the very elementary technics of love making up to the very complicated issues of sharing a space and a common life your knowledge will be zero, nill, nothing.

On other hand it isn't that easy to find that significant other you fall in love and would like to share a life with, on top of that you put very unrealistic requirements regarding lack of experience, shared religion and so on... :rolleyes:

I wish I was wrong but I predict you'll either stay celibate for the rest of your life or just dump part or a whole of that screenplay and then you'll regret all the time lost.

See, I won't be "behind" because both of us will be at the same level - inexperienced in your "techniques." I don't think I'd have issues with sharing space, either.

Aloimeh
12-19-2008, 10:49 PM
interesting

Oncology and hematology would have been my last choices, actually I would have waited another year rather than picking one of those

Why do you dislike it so much? And what are you thinking of going into?

Aloimeh
12-19-2008, 11:02 PM
i agree with you, good point.

i think what aloimeh is afraid of is feelings. he'd like the whole scenario to be handled like a business deal, even though it's got nothing in common with signing papers, marrying in a church or seemingly needed similarities betweem two people. so when he talks about being "emotionally shattered", he obviously would love to prevent sadness - but doesn't take all the happiness into consideration that people share beforehand. letting yourself go has nothing to do with showing weakness, and it seems like aloimeh is desperately trying to avoid any sort of emotion whatsoever.

it's absolutely ok to blow your composure from time to time, buddy, just let it out. :wavey: if you suppress it, it'll come back haunting ya via an early heart attack or cancer.

I'm actually very reserved in public but very emotional with close family members. So, I'm not afraid of expressing myself and I'm definitely not one of those "dead inside" type of people. I have become a harsher and more judgmental person since I started medicine (ironic, isn't it?) but that's not related to this issue.

All I'm arguing is that physical intimacy is not necessary to get to know whether a person is marriage compatible with you or not. The things that do determine that are partly objective and partly not. Clearly, it takes time to figure out the "non-objectives" - the "gut feeling" - and that's what dating is for. But the objectives can be appraised pretty quickly - 1.) shared beliefs about God, life, the world, etc. 2.) similar thoughts, interests, passions or even if different, you can respect each others' 3.) compatibility of lifestyle/profession/geographic factors 4.) same goals - children, how many, how they are to be raised, etc. 5.) of course, physical attraction is a very relevant factor, too.

So, if you can objectively assess quickly that someone doesn't meet your "criteria" - would you still date them?

Stensland
12-19-2008, 11:18 PM
again, there is such a thing as love. the first girl i was actually in love with had little in common with me. she didn't like sports (had never played tennis before, for example), was into philosophy at school and even liked maths - whereas i couldn' care less about all those 3 things. still we managed to get along really well and i wouldn't have dumped her, to be honest (no feelings left now, just to clarify that). there is something to the phrase that opposites do attract while people who think alike, act alike and talk alike bore each other quite fast. why would i wanna date a girl that's just like me?

Aloimeh
12-19-2008, 11:27 PM
again, there is such a thing as love. the first girl i was actually in love with had little in common with me. she didn't like sports (had never played tennis before, for example), was into philosophy at school and even liked maths - whereas i couldn' care less about all those 3 things. still we managed to get along really well and i wouldn't have dumped her, to be honest (no feelings left now, just to clarify that). there is something to the phrase that opposites do attract while people who think alike, act alike and talk alike bore each other quite fast. why would i wanna date a girl that's just like me?

So how does it first begin? How did you set on her as opposed to the other hundreds of eligible women you have interacted with in your life? And why did it end?

If you don't mind my asking, how many serious relationships have you had? How do you know someone is the "one" who is a candidate for a marriage?

Bascule
12-20-2008, 12:01 AM
To ask you, first of all, not to forget, how the history of your supporting the players has been since you registered on MTF?
What do you think about being seeded very high on ACC tourney since you had not been here for months?
Did the break from MTF help you in dealing with craps on this forum?
And what, after all, you think of MTF and MTFers, some of them particularly? Why are you back?

Anyway, about kids and "meaning of life".
Why at the end, would you married (not just to taste the sex act, I suppose), but to have the kids, and why would you marry the woman of the same faith, but to raise them up at the same basis, as you said. So, what's wrong with that, at the end? Haven't you ever heard how older people claim that, looking back, their kids were the only meaning of their lives, everything else was pointless? What is greater and more sublime? Love for the God? I always wondered, how is it possible for someone to put the God above his own children? I don't understand your "only relationship with God is what will survive my own death". I don't see the point, since "Preserve...and you'd get the compensation in the next life" sounds like story about a donkey and a carrot to me.
With no offense, your attitude about marriage and love is not original, it's the same story with many other believers of the other faiths too. It's just too dry and rigid. And speaks as that individual has the lack of feelings (poor sensibility) and the lack of the true passion for life. It's easy to be under self control if you are too "dry". What's wrong if a couple decide to marry because they fell in love, and later, decide to apart cause they are not in love anymore? You need the courage to go through this, to risk with somebody. If you are hiding beside the God, you actually don't take the risks for your life, and you just can go on repeating: it's God will. There are too many couples who decided not to apart (although they lack the love and respect in their marriages now, they maybe! had once) because of the kids, or because of the shame, or because of the house, or tradition, you name it. So, why your reason for staying in your type of marriage without true love is more valued than the reason of the others? Who can give you the guarantee that you would be satisfied with the marriage you described, you could be easy miserable too and wanted apart? Those who "once fell in love, lately divorced" were, at least, in love once, right? And, as Alfred Lord Tennyson would say: Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

About our gypsies:
Yes, some people would say, joking, of course, how we have our own nigers too. But to remind you, they have the status as they do in our society, not because of the racism, but because they chose to be at the bottom of the society by not attending the schools (the elementary school is the obligation for everyone by the law), by not getting the jobs, etc...In our elementary school, we had a gypsy teacher and 4 or 5 gypsy pupils in my generation. Everything was fine with them. No problems with anyone. Had friends, jobs,...You mentioned their great musical talent and inclination towards emotional expression in this way. Dzej was for years, the most popular folk singer, Boban Markovic is for years the best trumpet in Gucha:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8xdS5Ythi0
his son, Marko, is well known too. He played in a film about a forbidden love of a gypsy guy who play trumpet at Gucha and a daughter of the serbian who competes with him. The movie was lousy, but named "Gucha" film was promotion for the festival.
Marko Markovic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGRQGh4WWhA&feature=related
There is a guy who has a band, Kal, and he is educated musician, something very refreshing lately, he combined a lot of different musical genres on his CD. This was a promotive video made with Rambo Amadeus, it's parody, a joke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiTIbL9LMJ8
So, I think, as musicians, they are truly respectful here, not to mention Kusturica's movies and all those native actors he chose. And, yes, they have their own political party too.

About the guys here: See, it all depends on someone's nature, you got it all, as they say. I would agree, that lot of our guys are charming and communicative, and women love it, some of them are cocky, some not. While I like charming guys, I don't like cockiness and prefer more the "shy" type, not much extrovert type and have friends with the similar behaving. But, the most important, people are friendly.

As I remember, you said you did not read the eminent serbian writers? True or not? Do you have any of those books and which ones?
Your favorite world writers are...?

Stensland
12-20-2008, 12:02 AM
So how does it first begin?
How did you set on her as opposed to the other hundreds of eligible women you have interacted with in your life? And why did it end?
(/QUOTE]

as you know, all things love have nothing to do with science so it's hardly something i can explain. i don't know exactly "how" it happned, it just did. i didn't really "set on her" either, i wasn't on the hunt or anything like that. why it ended? because she dumped me right before she moved with her parents. would've ended eventually anyways, i guess.

[QUOTE=aloimeh]
If you don't mind my asking, how many serious relationships have you had? How do you know someone is the "one" who is a candidate for a marriage?

serious ones? three, including the current one and the one i just told you about. that's not a whole lot compared to the male sluts i hang out with. ;)

i'm not sure if i've ever implemented your rules refarding marriage material but in retrospective i'd say the first one could've been the one, i don't know about the current one. but i feel too young for marriage anyways (i'm about your age) and the idea of getting married doesn't play that much of a role currently, to be honest. maybe i'll get there later.

since you have pretty strict rules for your choice, do you have a framework for dating as well? like, date her for 6 months, then propose, then have kids at a particular age, number of kids etc.? this is not meant in a ridiculing way, i know someone who's made some sort of a masterplan when he was 15 - funnily he's still sticking to it and it works for him. :eek:

Bascule
12-20-2008, 12:15 AM
again, there is such a thing as love. the first girl i was actually in love with had little in common with me. she didn't like sports (had never played tennis before, for example), was into philosophy at school and even liked maths - whereas i couldn' care less about all those 3 things. still we managed to get along really well and i wouldn't have dumped her, to be honest (no feelings left now, just to clarify that). there is something to the phrase that opposites do attract while people who think alike, act alike and talk alike bore each other quite fast. why would i wanna date a girl that's just like me?

Well, as I understood how things go, opposites could attract each other, but it could also easy last just for a while. The most valued and lasting relationships are between people with the similar interests and how they are seeing the life in general. It strokes you deep down when you meet someone you could call a "soul match", although overused words, it also products the most powerful sexual attraction between people, not to mention the deepest emotion of the connection that could exist. Believe me. I tried the both.;)

Bascule
12-20-2008, 12:18 AM
since you have pretty strict rules for your choice, do you have a framework for dating as well? like, date her for 6 months, then propose, then have kids at a particular age, number of kids etc.? this is not meant in a ridiculing way, i know someone who's made some sort of a masterplan when he was 15 - funnily he's still sticking to it and it works for him.
:lol: This is good. :yeah:

Bascule
12-20-2008, 12:23 AM
I'm actually very reserved in public but very emotional with close family members. So, I'm not afraid of expressing myself and I'm definitely not one of those "dead inside" type of people. I have become a harsher and more judgmental person since I started medicine (ironic, isn't it?) but that's not related to this issue.

Wow! I didn't see this post before I posted my last long one. So, you are not "dry", or "dead inside", or whatever...Good!:D
Then, we can all this describe as a philosophy of a virgin.:lol: I talked the crap as a virgin, believe me, well, not really a crap, but it was far from the real life, to say so.:)

1.) shared beliefs about God, life, the world, etc. 2.) similar thoughts, interests, passions or even if different, you can respect each others' 3.) compatibility of lifestyle/profession/geographic factors 4.) same goals - children, how many, how they are to be raised, etc. 5.) of course, physical attraction is a very relevant factor, too.
With all those conditions, how do you suppose to find anyone at all?:rolleyes: At least, I never had the first one.:cool: So, it was easier for me.:p

Aloimeh
12-20-2008, 05:21 AM
Bascule:

1.) History of supporting players? Supported Djokovic. Now I've cooled off a bit and particularly care about anyone.

2.) I did not mind being seeded highly in ACC and was rather hoping I'd do well. Quarterfinals isn't bad! My hopes of winning or getting to the at least the semis or finals were dashed when I realized that may prolonged absence was working against me and that there were far worse incidents of clownery in Glenn, JM, Prima Donna, etc. than even my golden slam thread back in January.

3.) Not clear on the question.

4.) I think, like the real world, it represents a cross-section of humanity. I had expected more "tennis heads," which would be tha analogy to American "football heads" but there's really quite a range of people here and their backgrounds and inputs are also pretty diverse. Of specific posters, there are a few that I like, a few that I don't particularly like, and for the rest I'm pretty neutral. I'm back for these sorts of discussions and a bit of entertainment, like most of us.

5.) Nothing wrong with marrying to have kids. I like kids and I want to have many of them. Putting God before kids or anything else makes sense because if God is first, everything else falls into place. I don't know of any context in which putting God first would require you to neglect or somehow deprive or hurt your kids. On the other hand, it's quite clear how serving God might interfere with acquiring money, enjoying certain pleasures, furthering a career, etc. But for kids, it's hard for me to see the scenarios where they clash. God wants parents to raise their children well and love them, so looking out for the kids best interests is also a way of serving God.

6.) The carrot and stick are looked down upon, but it is not unreasonable to believe first out of fear. Some people believe out of love of God. Some people out of conviction of His existence and presence in their lives. Some out of fear. It doesn't matter how faith first begins - only that it grows. Even the book of Jude describes how some (unbelievers) will be won by love and others by fear. The fear of God is not a silly thing to look down upon - it is the only rational response to the Creator of the universe who guides both our present lives and judges us after death.

7.) I do not believe in divorce except in very extreme cases, such as the partner being adulterous or some sort of abuse of the spouse or children. Divorcing because "love expired" or something like that is not legitimate in my book. In my view, marriage is a union of two persons - not merely the end-point of love. When this union happens it is the beginning point of a binding relationship that should remain (excepting the above circumstances) until the death of either partner.

8.) I have not read Serbian writers. I do not have any of those books at home. I described earlier in the thread what my favorite works of literature are. As for authors, I probably haven't read enough to make the best decision, but definitely Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, and Shakespeare are among the top for me. I like Dickens, Hawthrone, Hardy, Chekhov, Aristophanes, Marlowe, Euripides, Homer, and Sophocles. I haven't read many other authors, unfortunately, and I'm trying to read some more.

At the moment, I'm finishing reading Marlowe's works, and am going through Edmund Spenser's. Also reading Le Morte d'Arthur of Malory (not very great as a literary work but probably the best collection of Arthurian legend, which I've always found interesting) and going on to Piers Plowman.

scarecrows
12-20-2008, 12:06 PM
Why do you dislike it so much? And what are you thinking of going into?

Must be the fact that I lost a very close cousin due to leukemia and also my mother worked all her life as a nurse in oncology so she kinda persuaded me that it was not a good choice.

I already started neurology, it was my favourite specialization for many years and I was happy to get it. Here it was one of the most difficult to get after Ophthalmology, Endocrinology and Obstetrics

mediter
12-20-2008, 12:56 PM
do you agree that you have been trounced badly by me on various topics before and that you will face more humiliating defeats in future?


do you agree that you are a closet supporter of serb war criminals as i have expertly concluded?

Why do you think your approach is better? Don't you feel a bit shattered emotionally with every long-term, emotionally and physically intimate, relationship that you've had that fell apart?

are you such a wimp??? i thought you were a cold supporter of a war criminal.


Isn't it said that people "always remember their first love"?

you don't have to.just move on.


Don't you think that couples matching can be done in an "objective" fashion - by looking for agreement of various criteria?

it cannot be fully rational or irrational. Attraction to a person's personality,looks,charisma are going to be irrational.at the same time, you cannot let irrationality get the better of you. you might end up as blind and stupid. you must be open enough to see through a partner's weaknesses as well irrespective of your bias.

similar ideology or interests do play a crucial bonding role.but it cannot be without emotions. or its not love at all.so it cannot be fully rational as well.

And sometimes its not about similarity. Gender differences slone would ensure that. its about matchup. you have to clear about where you want similarity.On other occasions, you can be ok with a amtch up(i.e as you don't feel like beating the other person to pulp because of a diametraillcay opposite worldview, you agree to live with her.)

mediter
12-20-2008, 12:58 PM
2.) I did not mind being seeded highly in ACC and was rather hoping I'd do well.


why did you have to ruin my chances, you twit? but i don't believe you could have defeated without the support of my bugbear ,hitlerfan,who plays a partisan role against me every single time.

Aloimeh
12-20-2008, 03:56 PM
[QUOTE=Aloimeh;7918973]
i'm not sure if i've ever implemented your rules refarding marriage material but in retrospective i'd say the first one could've been the one, i don't know about the current one. but i feel too young for marriage anyways (i'm about your age) and the idea of getting married doesn't play that much of a role currently, to be honest. maybe i'll get there later.

since you have pretty strict rules for your choice, do you have a framework for dating as well? like, date her for 6 months, then propose, then have kids at a particular age, number of kids etc.? this is not meant in a ridiculing way, i know someone who's made some sort of a masterplan when he was 15 - funnily he's still sticking to it and it works for him. :eek:

What age do you think you'd be prepared for marriage?

As for my rules/plans, these things are quite unpredicable. I think it takes half a year to a year to "figure" someone out, if you never knew them before you started dating. You need to "test" them in various contexts: with parents, with siblings, with your parents and siblings, with extended family, with friends, in the presence of alcohol, in formal situations, in public, when traveling, how they deal with time and money, etc. One thing I am wary of is getting duped by someone interested in the prestige/money of a doctor. In a way, I'd like to meet someone before I become a full-fledged doctor so as to avoid this problem.

As for family planning, I'd like to have lots of kids but nowadays it's hard to give them the attention they need if you have lots. I'd like to have 4-6 kids, hopefully half girls and half boys. I think starting to have kids in the mid to late 20s is reasonable, especially if many kids are desired. If you push it into the late 30s, as many career women here in the US are increasingly doing, then you can't have too many kids and you probably have declining energy/capacity for raising them.

Aloimeh
12-20-2008, 04:03 PM
Must be the fact that I lost a very close cousin due to leukemia and also my mother worked all her life as a nurse in oncology so she kinda persuaded me that it was not a good choice.

I already started neurology, it was my favourite specialization for many years and I was happy to get it. Here it was one of the most difficult to get after Ophthalmology, Endocrinology and Obstetrics

I had a neurology attending tell me that she could never do oncology. She said the patients were so sick, that the chemotherapy made them even sicker (which is true), and that it was very depressing. Yes, I can see that perspective, but I think it's all a bit more "real" when the stakes are so high.

As for neurology, it is very interesting, but also depressing because there aren't that many treatments for these conditions.

Interestingly, neurology is pretty non-competitive in the US, and obstetrics even less so (malpractice lawsuits and long ours) and endocrinology might be called "easy" to get into. Ophthalmology is very hard to get into in the US, as are otorhinolaryngology, dermatology, and radiation oncology (others, too, like anesthesiology, orthopedic surgery, radiology, neurosurgery).

Stensland
12-22-2009, 02:49 PM
1. what do you think of pat robertson?

2. why do you believe european media is pretty much ridiculing the whole evangelical movement in the states?

3. do you think europe will eventually get "re-christianiased" some time?

4. border fence, yes or nay?

5. do you support serbia at the world cup? how far do you think they will go?

6. do you think serbia will fare well over the coming decades if it continues to rely on russia instead of the european union?

7. has there been a backlash vs. serbs in the states when blagojevich got blasted by the press?

8. do you watch jon stewart and stephen colbert? what do you think of bill maher and his stance on religion?

9. where do you see yourself on the health care debate? universal health care, yes or nay?

10. as an evangelical, do you support the death penalty?

Aloimeh
12-22-2009, 10:12 PM
1. what do you think of pat robertson?

2. why do you believe european media is pretty much ridiculing the whole evangelical movement in the states?

3. do you think europe will eventually get "re-christianiased" some time?

4. border fence, yes or nay?

5. do you support serbia at the world cup? how far do you think they will go?

6. do you think serbia will fare well over the coming decades if it continues to rely on russia instead of the european union?

7. has there been a backlash vs. serbs in the states when blagojevich got blasted by the press?

8. do you watch jon stewart and stephen colbert? what do you think of bill maher and his stance on religion?

9. where do you see yourself on the health care debate? universal health care, yes or nay?

10. as an evangelical, do you support the death penalty?

1.) I don't follow what Pat Robertson says or does. I remember him saying Hugo Chavez should be killed or something of that sort. I doubt he is Christian.

2.) I think the European media is seeing the majority of evangelicals, which are indeed uneducated or undereducated and therefore are naturally subject to ridicule by more educated Europeans. I think the media tends to ignore educated evangelicals who know the Bible front and back and discuss the theology at a highly sophisticated level. The pastor of the church in which I grew up is one such individual and his sermons are at a level that dwarfs any humanities/social sciences lecture I had at college.

3.) No, as a dominant force, I do not think Christianity is coming back to Europe. Europe is post-Christian. By that, I mean that it is not new to them. They've heard about Jesus and the Bible and it has all become very banal to them, lacking the power to speak to their hearts. I speak generally, of course. Individuals are another story.

4.) Which borders? I've never heard of a fence, except the one in the Occupied Territories.

5.) I have no idea. I suppose I might support them, but maybe not. I am not big on football.

6.) If you hadn't noticed, Serbia just submitted an application for EU membership. The collaborators in Belgrade are obsessed with the EU. I hope they don't get in. They don't deserve the EU.

7.) Surprisingly, no. To be honest, I thought there would be a lot of mocking and bashing but there really was none I could notice. Blagojevich was not perceived as being a particularly pro-Serb politician; in fact he never spoke out on those issues. The other major Serb politician, Ohio governor Voinovich (who is half-Slovene, anyway), is also not particularly pro-Serb.

8.) I've never watched them. Maher is a spiritually blind and deaf man, in my opinion.

9.) Hard to say how things will end up with health care. In short, yes, but I worry about private insurance being pushed out. I do not want a single-payer plan.

10.) I oppose the death penalty.

Stensland
12-22-2009, 11:33 PM
1.) I don't follow what Pat Robertson says or does. I remember him saying Hugo Chavez should be killed or something of that sort. I doubt he is Christian.

:confused:... isn't he the beacon of evangelicals?


4.) Which borders? I've never heard of a fence, except the one in the Occupied Territories.

u.s.-mexican borders. american senators have been talking about a fence for some time now.


6.) If you hadn't noticed, Serbia just submitted an application for EU membership.

yeah you're right, i was just reading up on that. missed it completely. i wonder why they basically gave away lots of their utility companies and then some to russia for little money.

are your friends mostly recent immigrants or rather americanised people, having already four or five generations living in the states? and did your parents look for serbian-american communities before they settled to make the transition a little easier?

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 12:20 AM
double post

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 12:22 AM
:confused:... isn't he the beacon of evangelicals?



u.s.-mexican borders. american senators have been talking about a fence for some time now.



yeah you're right, i was just reading up on that. missed it completely. i wonder why they basically gave away lots of their utility companies and then some to russia for little money.

are your friends mostly recent immigrants or rather americanised people, having already four or five generations living in the states? and did your parents look for serbian-american communities before they settled to make the transition a little easier?

Is Angela Merkel the sole representative of your personal opinions? Can't you accept that I don't follow a cult leader? Evangelicalism is a movement based on scriptural exegesis and minimal tradition.

No fence will work on the US-Mexico border, so I wouldn't support one. We would need a wall, and that would be tantamount to outright political hostility.

I'm glad they did give Russia a foothold. Nobody deserves the tender mercies of the EU. At least with the bear around, the EU won't be able to run totally amok.

Most of my friends are recent immigrants; I feel I relate to them a little bit better.

My parents were not at all nationally-minded when they came to the US. In fact, my father considered himself more of a Slovene. They did not settle based on the Serbian-American community. The very first community they settled in had no Serbs living there: their friends were two "American" American couples and a South African couple. They have lived in 4 communities in the US. In all cases, they settled where my dad could find work. Only one of the cities has a large Serbian-American community, but it is an old community (~100 years old, many of them) and they do not know the language. Where I grew up as a kid, there were very few Yugo people. Those of our family friends who Yugo were mostly mixed-marriage people: a Croat-Croat/Slovene marriage, a Serb/Macedonian-Croat/Serb marriage, a Serb-Serb/Croat/Hungarian marriage, a Serb-Serb/Macedonian marriage, etc.

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 01:51 AM
Tune of the day:

lyY4EObizNg

Stensland
12-23-2009, 05:53 PM
1. are your parents similar to you religion-wise? would they be considered evangelicals as well?

2. in america churches operate like business, they need to have the checks and balances in order etc. would you prefer the german model where there's a church tax that basically everyone has to pay?

3. what do you think of gospel songs? is it common to sing a lot in your church?

4. does your surname still have an "´" over the "c" (if you have a "c" in your surname) or did your parents drop it when they immigrated?

5. do you expect bosnia-hercegovina to fall apart anytime soon (bosnian croats to croatia, bosnian serbs in rep. srpska etc. to serbia, bosniaks forming a sole entity "bosnia" or something like that)?

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 06:07 PM
1. are your parents similar to you religion-wise? would they be considered evangelicals as well?

2. in america churches operate like business, they need to have the checks and balances in order etc. would you prefer the german model where there's a church tax that basically everyone has to pay?

3. what do you think of gospel songs? is it common to sing a lot in your church?

4. does your surname still have an "´" over the "c" (if you have a "c" in your surname) or did your parents drop it when they immigrated?

5. do you expect bosnia-hercegovina to fall apart anytime soon (bosnian croats to croatia, bosnian serbs in rep. srpska etc. to serbia, bosniaks forming a sole entity "bosnia" or something like that)?

1.) My father does not believe in God. My mother is similar to me theologically-speaking. In asserting my opinions I'm like my mother, very strong-willed, vocal, and not afraid of going against the grain. On the other hand, I'm more like my father in that I am reserved in public and am an introvert.

2.) I do not prefer a tax. I do not like it when a church brings up the issue of donations over and over, and I tend to avoid those that do. I also like to see that they are being put to good use, i.e. missions and helping out the church community is important, whereas I detest it when pastors who barely work rake in cash.

3.) What do you mean by gospel songs? Are these old hymns or modern pop-type songs? I dislike modern Christian music. I think it caters to modern sensibilities and to a false emotionality, and some are theologically off. I prefer traditional hymns and do enjoy Orthodox and Catholic church music also.

4.) Why would you assume I have on of the "-ic" names? You're right though, and I still write mine with the ' . My parents did not change it to "ch". (my uncle had a surname ending in "dina" and his wife in "rina" and both are Serbs, so...)

5.) It appears it will. I would like for this to happen before refugees are repatriated. I think if more repatriation occurs (of any ethnic group), more bloodshed will be inevitable when the breakup occurs.

I also think the Croats have finally come to their senses and will align with the Serbs this time as opposed to their usual practice of aligning with Muslims and then backstabbing them.

ad-out
12-23-2009, 06:14 PM
Do you think women should "love and obey" their husbands as was said in older versions of marriage vows?

Stensland
12-23-2009, 06:16 PM
yeah i meant the newer gospel songs. do you guys sing such songs in church? over here those things haven't arrived somehow. we still sing the songs my great grandfather knew.

hardly any surname in serbia ends with an other consonant than "c" (i didn't say it had to be "ic" in your case, could be "ac" or something like that as well). unlike croats who still have tons of rukavinas or drobnjaks, serbia is full of "c"s. slovenes are different and bosniaks can easily be picked out due to their islamic heritage (salihovic, muslimovic, ibrahimovic etc.).

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 06:36 PM
yeah i meant the newer gospel songs. do you guys sing such songs in church? over here those things haven't arrived somehow. we still sing the songs my great grandfather knew.

hardly any surname in serbia ends with an other consonant than "c" (i didn't say it had to be "ic" in your case, could be "ac" or something like that as well). unlike croats who still have tons of rukavinas or drobnjaks, serbia is full of "c"s. slovenes are different and bosniaks can easily be picked out due to their islamic heritage (salihovic, muslimovic, ibrahimovic etc.).

Yes, in some churches I've been, but I dislike it. I often prefer to remain silent. It's a big turnoff. I hope it never gets into Germany, but I think already permeates England, so...

Not entirely true regarding the surnames. It's a geographic, not an ethnic, thing. I knew a Muslim surnamed Pleho. I know a girl whose Bosnian Serb father is surnamed Suka. The names are far less uniform in Bosnia and Croatia than Serbia, and that's regardless of the ethnic group. A famous Muslim singer from Bosnia was surnamed Polovina.

You cannot always tell ethnicity from surname. There are Muslim Filipovics and Kovacevics and I've even heard of a Milosevic. There are Serbs with names like Hadzibabic, Hadzic, Adzic, etc. Kusturica was a Muslim and Kostunica is a Serb. Go figure. There are both Serb and Croat Ostojics, Markovics, etc. My Bulgarian friend's mother's surname is Selimova and she's not a Muslim.

The consonant in "ac" is not the same as the "ic" one. The "ic" one sounds like English "ch" whereas the "ac" one sounds like German "z."

Stensland
12-23-2009, 06:43 PM
i know about the "ac" thing and its pronunciation. i was only going for the "c"-ending there.

obviously there will always be exceptions to the rule but so far i'm doing fairly well guessing the heritage of yugoslavs around me - based solely on their surnames. i'm at 100%, don't you distract me. ;)

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 06:59 PM
i know about the "ac" thing and its pronunciation. i was only going for the "c"-ending there.

obviously there will always be exceptions to the rule but so far i'm doing fairly well guessing the heritage of yugoslavs around me - based solely on their surnames. i'm at 100%, don't you distract me. ;)

What's the ethnicity of Ugljanin? Mamula? (no cheating) ;)

Stensland
12-23-2009, 07:05 PM
wOOt! :eek:

hmm...i have no idea about the origins of mamula. ugljanin sounds croatian to me. might be slovene, too. no, i'm sticking with croatian. mamula as well. they do have these far out family names from time to time.

are you generally interested in surname origins? i'm kinda obsessed with it. :wavey:

Stensland
12-23-2009, 07:07 PM
f****** exceptions. :D yeah got both completely wrong, never mind.

ad-out
12-23-2009, 07:14 PM
Aloimeh - you didn't answer my question. :sad:

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 09:23 PM
Do you think women should "love and obey" their husbands as was said in older versions of marriage vows?

Yes, generally-speaking, unless what their husband is doing and wants to be done is a sin. Then their loyalty must be first to God.

It also says the husband must love his wife as Christ loved his church, i.e. to be willing to sacrifice himself (his own life, even) for his wife.

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 09:26 PM
f****** exceptions. :D yeah got both completely wrong, never mind.

Yes, I think surname origins are fascinating. They carry so much history in them. I also have a morbid fascination with graveyards. I like to go by and see the names, the parents' names, when they lived, the artistic style prevailing in the period when the gravestone was erected, membership in masonry, etc.

I mentioned Mamula and Ugljanin because Ugljanin happens to be a very nationalistic Muslim politician, and Mamula was a very famous Serb singer of sevdalinkas.

Rrrainer, why didn't you choose to be a history graduate student?

Stensland
12-23-2009, 09:40 PM
mainly because i used to dislike history and thought it was boring. well, i still think lots of it is boring (i'm not really into anything prior to the 20th century). what i'm more interested in is the world itself and all things migration. who are the main competitors in the bolivian elections? why does honduras have such a large christian palestinian population? how did german migration to southern brazil shape the country? what about the large number of british cypriots? ukrainian mennonites in the canadian prairies? is the exodus of whites in south africa gonna go on? minorities in russia, the armenian diaspora, maronites across the globe, the border conflict between chavez and uribe, the ever-increasing influx of asians in new zealand, chinese land-taking (mines, commodities etc.) in australia, the possible partition of belgium, the unlikely but not impossible annexation of moldova by romania/ukraine/plus a moscow-ruled satellite state made up of ethnic russians etc.

that's basically the stuff i'm interested in. plus tennis. ;)

Stensland
12-23-2009, 09:43 PM
i'm not really into graveyards though, sorry. :D

got one surname for you, along with the first name. i wasn't able to position it properly, he's a local football player around here. no cheating: xheladin shabani

hint: balkans.

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 09:43 PM
mainly because i used to dislike history and thought it was boring. well, i still think lots of it is boring (i'm not really into anything prior to the 20th century). what i'm more interested in is the world itself and all things migration. who are the main competitors in the bolivian elections? why does honduras have such a large christian palestinian population? how did german migration to southern brazil shape the country? what about the large number of british cypriots? ukrainian mennonites in the canadian prairies? is the exodus of whites in south africa gonna go on? minorities in russia, the armenian diaspora, maronites across the globe, the border conflict between chavez and uribe, the ever-increasing influx of asians in new zealand, chinese land-taking (mines, commodities etc.) in australia, the possible partition of belgium, the unlikely but not impossible annexation of moldova by romania/ukraine/plus a moscow-ruled satellite state made up of ethnic russians etc.

that's basically the stuff i'm interested in. plus tennis. ;)

You can study that as a historian, you know. It doesn't have to be focused on any particular period or country or region, as long as you draw the strings together. Sounds like your real passion. What you're doing currently - not so much.

Besides German and English, what other languages do you know?

Btw, is there a Spotlight Rrrainer thread out there?

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 09:46 PM
i'm not really into graveyards though, sorry. :D

got one surname for you, along with the first name. i wasn't able to position it properly. no cheating: xheladin shabani

hint: balkans.

Same ethnicity as Shefqet Krasniqi. :rolleyes:

What's something weird that you find gross that other people generally don't?

Have you ever read Peter Handke or Elfriede Jelinek?

Are you from Westphalia?

Stensland
12-23-2009, 09:57 PM
i don't really want a spotlight thread, thx. it's not that hard to get me talking about stuff i like, i wanna keep it that way. :)

we have TONS of krasniqis, shabanis, avnis etc. where i live - and lots of assyrians/syriacs as well. interestingly their surnames sound jewish: ashouri, elias, gabriel, abram, benyamin...

apart from english i know a little spanish and that's about it.

i've never read peter handke or jelinek. not an avid reader here, i don't think i've ever made it through a fictional book that i didn't have to read (school). i do read a lot though, on the internet, papers, magazines etc.

do you have jewish or muslim friends btw? hindhu?

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 10:03 PM
i don't really want a spotlight thread, thx. it's not that hard to get me talking about stuff i like, i wanna keep it that way. :)

we have TONS of krasniqis, shabanis, avnis etc. where i live - and lots of assyrians/syriacs as well. interestingly their surnames sound jewish: ashouri, elias, gabriel, abram, benyamin...

apart from english i know a little spanish and that's about it.

i've never read peter handke or jelinek. not an avid reader here, i don't think i've ever made it through a fictional book that i didn't have to read (school). i do read a lot though, on the internet, papers, magazines etc.

do you have jewish or muslim friends btw? hindhu?

Interesting about the Assyrians/Syriacs. I wonder if they have some Hebrew roots. The 10 lost tribes were taken into captivity by the Assyrians. When did these people arrive in Germany? Turkey wiped out a lot. I'm guessing these are Iraqis.

As for the Albanians...well, I won't go there. Are they mostly from Kosovo or Albania? Muslim or Catholic/Orthodox? How well integrated are they?

Well, you are an avid reader. Of non-fiction.

As for friends, I don't have very many friends in the first place, but I don't discriminate on religion in making friendships (maybe against Satanists), so I probably have a proportional number of Jewish/Muslim/Hindu friends to my Christian/agnostic/atheist friends, or maybe a bit more given the disproportionate representation of those religious groups in medicine and science in the US.

scoobs
12-23-2009, 10:06 PM
Do you have any homosexual friends?

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 10:09 PM
Do you have any homosexual friends?

As I said before, I don't have very many friends in the first place.

I do have a gay acquaintance/friend from my med school class.

I also had a friend/acquaintance in college who was straight at the time but gradually became ultra-lesbian. We don't communicate because we've gone separate ways but it has nothing to do with her orientation.

scoobs
12-23-2009, 10:14 PM
As I said before, I don't have very many friends in the first place.

I do have a gay acquaintance/friend from my med school class.

I also had a friend/acquaintance in college who was straight at the time but gradually became ultra-lesbian. We don't communicate because we've gone separate ways but it has nothing to do with her orientation.
So supposing you met somebody who was interesting and you were on the same wavelength with them on many things but they happened to be homosexual, do you think you would be comfortable forming a friendship with them (presumably discussions about religion, sexuality et all would be best taken off the table)?

Stensland
12-23-2009, 10:15 PM
When did these people arrive in Germany? Turkey wiped out a lot. I'm guessing these are Iraqis.

yeah many of them came from iraq and iran, but lots of them are ethnic arameans who came here from a region called tur abdin (southeast turkey) once they got an official refugee status (50s/60s/70s). if you care to check where the aramean people predominantly settled in western europe, you can easily find out that i'm indeed from westphalia. ;)

if you're on that wikipedia page anyways, check out södertalje (sweden). how surreal can a town and its population close to the artic circle be? :eek:


As for the Albanians...well, I won't go there. Are they mostly from Kosovo or Albania? Muslim or Catholic/Orthodox? How well integrated are they?

not that well, but then again they "compete" with muslim turks and the arameans i mentioned as the major immigrant groups around here - and they easily win the integration race.

i remember you were from the midwest. rural or urban/suburban?

will you go wherever a job will take you or do you plan to stay where you are?

once you have kids, would you want your wife to work?

Stensland
12-23-2009, 10:22 PM
seems like they've altered the section about the aramean diaspora on wikipedia. they used to have information about their main settlements these days: eastern westphalia and södertalje.

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 10:27 PM
So supposing you met somebody who was interesting and you were on the same wavelength with them on many things but they happened to be homosexual, do you think you would be comfortable forming a friendship with them (presumably discussions about religion, sexuality et all would be best taken off the table)?

Yes, but only in a certain way. I cannot make friendships in the same way with women as I can with men, because I am aware that with a heterosexual woman it could always become "sexualized." So it is the same thing with a gay man. Not for my part, but potentially for his. There would have to be that same sort of distance I keep with my female friends/acquaintances.

The issue, though, is that I make so few friends precisely because I don't enjoy doing many of the activities they do. For example, I don't like most sports, so watching a football game or going to a hockey game is completely uninteresting to me. I don't like bars because I think the alcohol is low quality, they are grimy, and I don't like getting drunk or watching others get drunk.

It is precisely history, politics, religion, science, etc. that I like to discuss and I simply cannot find it amongst my current circle of friends/acquaintances who are in medical school. College was not much better. The only two people I know who like discussing these things somewhat are a Korean guy and a Taiwanese guy. Hence, that's why I'm here, because I can't enjoy these discussions with my "real life" acquaintances.

scoobs
12-23-2009, 10:32 PM
Yes, but only in a certain way. I cannot make friendships in the same way with women as I can with men, because I am aware that with a heterosexual woman it could always become "sexualized." So it is the same thing with a gay man. Not for my part, but potentially for his. There would have to be that same sort of distance I keep with my female friends/acquaintances.

The issue, though, is that I make so few friends precisely because I don't enjoy doing many of the activities they do. For example, I don't like most sports, so watching a football game or going to a hockey game is completely uninteresting to me. I don't like bars because I think the alcohol is low quality, they are grimy, and I don't like getting drunk or watching others get drunk.

It is precisely history, politics, religion, science, etc. that I like to discuss and I simply cannot find it amongst my current circle of friends/acquaintances who are in medical school. College was not much better. The only two people I know who like discussing these things somewhat are a Korean guy and a Taiwanese guy. Hence, that's why I'm here, because I can't enjoy these discussions with my "real life" acquaintances.
*nods*

That makes sense.

The reason I asked was because, in light of the exchanges of views we've had on various threads in the past few weeks, it occurred to me to wonder how I would deal with such a situation, should it arise. Would I be able to reconcile the inherent tensions arising from a friendship with somebody who thinks so fundamentally differently to me on very deep questions, or would it be possible to compartmentalise the situation and establish a rapport without dwelling on the "big deal" stuff. I'm still not sure I know the answer to that, I guess it's one I'd have to find out if it ever came up, and I wanted to get your take on that from "the other side", if you like.

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 10:32 PM
yeah many of them came from iraq and iran, but lots of them are ethnic arameans who came here from a region called tur abdin (southeast turkey) once they got an official refugee status (50s/60s/70s). if you care to check where the aramean people predominantly settled in western europe, you can easily find out that i'm indeed from westphalia. ;)

if you're on that wikipedia page anyways, check out södertalje (sweden). how surreal can a town and its population close to the artic circle be? :eek:



not that well, but then again they "compete" with muslim turks and the arameans i mentioned as the major immigrant groups around here - and they easily win the integration race.

i remember you were from the midwest. rural or urban/suburban?

will you go wherever a job will take you or do you plan to stay where you are?

once you have kids, would you want your wife to work?

Actually, I googled the Xheladin Shabani fellow and found that the name links to a place in Westphalia. Just a guess.

Turks really did a number on a few ancient peoples - Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians. Real shame in my view.

How well integrated are the ex-Yugoslavs? I expect the pre-war and intellectual immigrants are better integrated than the refugees and gastarbeiters, but that's always the case. Slovenes are best integrated, of course. They're practically Slavic Germans. ;)

I live on the east coast of the US. Not on the water, but the region is considered part of the east coast. Medium sized city.

I will go wherever work leads me. I like warm climates, though, so it would be nice to leave where I am currently. Also, I wouldn't mind being itinerant for a while. There's something called locum tenens where a physician can take on temporary assignments and move all about the country. Also, take long vacations in between and hopefully see a bit of the world - including Germany.

I would not want my wife to work.

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 10:45 PM
*nods*

That makes sense.

The reason I asked was because, in light of the exchanges of views we've had on various threads in the past few weeks, it occurred to me to wonder how I would deal with such a situation, should it arise. Would I be able to reconcile the inherent tensions arising from a friendship with somebody who thinks so fundamentally differently to me on very deep questions, or would it be possible to compartmentalise the situation and establish a rapport without dwelling on the "big deal" stuff. I'm still not sure I know the answer to that, I guess it's one I'd have to find out if it ever came up, and I wanted to get your take on that from "the other side", if you like.

Well, I know that I can deal with people who disapprove of me. I can deal with being friends/acquaintances with a Muslim who thinks I'm an infidel or an atheist who thinks I'm an idiot in my beliefs. I can also be friends/acquaintances with people of whose lifestyle I do not approve, and that's the majority. Don't think that my anti-gay position means I think straight people having premarital sex or cohabiting together (most of my friends/acquaintances) are OK. But I accept it because it doesn't mean I'll take on those ways of looking at things and those behaviors.

It's more of an issue of how deep those friendships can actually be.

Stensland
12-23-2009, 10:50 PM
Turks really did a number on a few ancient peoples - Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians. Real shame in my view.

germany will never ratify any sort of legislation that marks turkish genocides officially as precisely that: genocides. in my town (also mid-sized) alone there are 5 (!) exclusively turkish football clubs - just to give you an idea of the size of their community over here. erdogan even came over to cologne to campaign for his election in turkey. the expatriates form quite a big chunk of his voter block: erdogan's a hardliner politically stuck in the 60s - which is exactly when germany hired turks as guest workers. that's when their clock stopped ticking. spiritually, politically and mentally they're in the 60s and erdogan delivers just what the majority of them wants.


How well integrated are the ex-Yugoslavs? I expect the pre-war and intellectual immigrants are better integrated than the refugees and gastarbeiters.

most of them are doing okay where i'm from but westphalia isn't as big a "yugo region" as southern germany. that's why we didn't have many intellectual immigrants. they tend to flock to munich, berlin or hamburg, i guess.

i grew up with many refugee children during my years at elementary school. back then i had no idea about their heritage. my mum used to like their parents a lot (maybe compassion, don't know), they usually talked a lot when they picked us kids up. for some reason i haven't made any friends though.

has there been a similar kind of influx in the states back then? did your parents help some of them out?

and feel free to ring me up whenever you wanna visit germany. :)

scoobs
12-23-2009, 10:52 PM
Well, I know that I can deal with people who disapprove of me. I can deal with being friends/acquaintances with a Muslim who thinks I'm an infidel or an atheist who thinks I'm an idiot in my beliefs. I can also be friends/acquaintances with people of whose lifestyle I do not approve, and that's the majority. Don't think that my anti-gay position means I think straight people having premarital sex or cohabiting together (most of my friends/acquaintances) are OK. But I accept it because it doesn't mean I'll take on those ways of looking at things and those behaviors.

It's more of an issue of how deep those friendships can actually be.
Yes I guess beyond a certain point there would have to be more of an agreement in outlook.

In general I do find it interesting to talk to people with whom I disagree about many things, though - I do like an lively, civil discussion and there's plenty of people on here who can provide one.

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 11:07 PM
germany will never ratify any sort of legislation that marks turkish genocides officially as precisely that: genocides. in my town (also mid-sized) alone there are 5 (!) exclusively turkish football clubs - just to give you an idea of the size of their community over here. erdogan even came over to cologne to campaign for his election in turkey. the expatriates form quite a big chunk of his voter block: erdogan's a hardliner politically stuck in the 60s - which is exactly when germany hired turks as guest workers. that's when their clock stopped ticking. spiritually, politically and mentally they're in the 60s and erdogan delivers just what the majority of them wants.



most of them are doing okay where i'm from but westphalia isn't as big a "yugo region" as southern germany. that's why we didn't have many intellectual immigrants prior to the early 90s. they tend to flock to munich, berlin or hamburg, i guess.

i grew up with many refugee children during my years at elementary school. back then i had no idea about their heritage. my mum used to like their parents a lot (maybe compassion, don't know), they usually talked a lot when they picked us kids up. for some reason i haven't made any friends though.

has there been a similar kind of influx in the states back then? did your parents help some of them out?

and feel free to ring me up whenever you wanna visit germany. :)

Well, yes, but it goes beyond genocide. It's also cultural destruction. Go to western Turkey and you will see the skeletons of a splendid Ionian and later Byzantine Greek civilization whose descendants simply no longer exist. Or Ararat and the Armenians. Serbs think losing Kosovo is bad, but I just think it must be so hard for Armenians when they see Ararat or Greeks when they think of Constantinople. All these peoples with their own Jerusalems, I suppose.

Interesting you ask. My family did help a refugee family and...they were Albanians. They were our friends from before the war. Shortly before the bombing of 1999, their daughter came to live with us for a few weeks. It was somewhat of a tense situation because she pretended not to know Serbian (she did) and tried to communicate with us in broken English. That lasted about a day or so. Later, the mother, father, and two brothers came over to the US and put in a request to stay with us rather than their Albanian relatives in D.C. (who refused to take them). We accepted them and they stayed about 3 weeks. One of their sons was a collaborator/interpreter of the KLA and you could see a visceral anti-Serb hatred in his attitude.

The whole thing was rather a bitter experience because they apparently lied about being expelled and having documents confiscated. They left on their own, and later returned in June 1999. Their flat in Pristina wasn't burned down and in fact during their stay in the US they rented it out to another Albanian family. Their daughter claimed that her report cards were destroyed by Serb police, but while cleaning her bedroom my mother found her report cards from the so-called underground Albanian schools. It was all equivalents of Cs, Ds, and Fs, which are the three lowest marks (one of them failing) in US schools. My sister spoke to her college administrators to try to get her into her college (which is a pretty strong one, actually). This girls' entrance exam scores were terrible and she didn't have a chance to get in anywhere otherwise. Because my sister spoke to the administrators, the girl got a full tuition scholarship - despite a missing report card ("Serbs stole it") and terrible entrance exam scores. In the end, this girl completely ignored my sister and spread vicious rumors about my entire family.

I had another bad experience with a refugee. A young woman from Bugojno in Bosnia. She was Muslim, lost an arm and an eye (had a glass one). At the end of the school year, my Irish-American teacher (who's wife is an Albanian-American Christian woman and a lovely person) invited my family to their house to meet this lady. She explained how Serbs shelled the town and that ruined her eye and arm. My mother suspected that she was lying because it was well known that Serbs were never a large population in Bugojno and were in fact expelled by the Croats and Muslims in 1992. Months later, the wife of my teacher called up my mother and told her that the Muslim woman was lying so she could get refugee status; she felt guilty and actually went back to Bosnia. She had lost her eye and arm in an accident when her boyfriend and she were lighting firecrackers and this all happened before the war.

So, I have a rather dim view of many refugees. I'm not doubting that there are true victims among them, but my experience with a Muslim and an Albanian family have not been very good.

Something you have to realize is that, unlike in Germany, where integrity and honesty are highly valued, many people from the Balkans (of all ethnicities) feel that lying is acceptable if there is something to be gained.

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 11:15 PM
Yes I guess beyond a certain point there would have to be more of an agreement in outlook.

In general I do find it interesting to talk to people with whom I disagree about many things, though - I do like an lively, civil discussion and there's plenty of people on here who can provide one.

Agreed. I find my arguments are strengthened through practice and through people (you foremost among them) picking them apart and criticizing them.

What is your line of work, actually?

Stensland
12-23-2009, 11:21 PM
Or Ararat and the Armenians.

since you mention armenians: you know what i find the most disturbing? second-generation immigrants who know nothing about their heritage. i met an armenian last year and just the fact that his family's armenian got me going - only to find out he knew nothing about his own history. the same goes for lots of people from the balkans. some weeks ago i "enlightened" one of them and told him he's a bosniak (bosnian muslim, at least by heritage). he had never heard of that term. :worship:

i take it that term does exist in the serbo-croatian language, right?


It was somewhat of a tense situation because she pretended not to know Serbian (she did) and tried to communicate with us in broken English.

why exactly?

did american english adopt certain words from serbo-croatian? did serbs/croats/bosniaks come up with new terms in the new world? in germany immigrants from the balkans created new phrases and gradually integrated them into their mother tongue, like "baustelskis", for immigrants who work at a "baustelle" (=building site, construction site).

Aloimeh
12-23-2009, 11:33 PM
since you mention armenians: you know what i find the most disturbing? second-generation immigrants who know nothing about their heritage. i met an armenian last year and just the fact that his family's armenian got me going - only to find out he knew nothing about his own history. the same goes for lots of people from the balkans. some weeks ago i "enlightened" one of them and told him he's a bosniak (bosnian muslim, at least by heritage). he had never heard of that term. :worship:

i take it that term does exist in the serbo-croatian language, right?



why exactly?

did american english adopt certain words from serbo-croatian? did serbs/croats/bosniaks come up with new terms in the new world? in germany immigrants created new phrases, like "baustelskis", for bosnian immigrants who work at a "baustelle" (=building site, construction site).

Actually, that's good. That shows that assimilation is really happening. Now, maybe it's assimilation through ignorance, but isn't that what assimilation is always about? You become American by intentionally forgetting your origins or never even seeding them into your child. You ought to be very please, indeed, that that Bosnian Muslim doesn't know about his heritage. That means that his kids likely will be nearly as German as yours.

Honestly, and no offense to any of your friends or anything, but most Serbs and Croats consider Bosnian Muslims to be a fake ethnic group. They're essentially Serbs or Croats who converted to Islam. Genetically they're the same and they speak the same language. Their identity was forged by Tito when he decided to call them Muslims instead of muslims. The distinction is that religious groups are lower case in Serbo-Croatian, whereas ethnicities are uppercase.

This Bosniaks stuff is sheer nonsense. It was a Turkish term but it referred to all people of Bosnia, regardless of ethnicity. Even the Turks considered those people to be Muslim Serbs or Croats. The funniest ones are those who were born in Serbia but call themselves Bosniaks because of their religion, even though their ancestors have nothing to do with Bosnia. Alija Izetbegovic is one such person. On his father's side, he was from Belgrade - a Muslim Serb.

Of course, a Catholic Bavarian and a Protestant Prussian - both are Germans. It's not as if Luther's reformation created a new ethnic group.

I also resent the term Bosniaks because it's a sly attempt by Muslims to lay claim to the territory, as if they are the native group and the Serbs and Croats are new comers from Serbia and Croatia. In fact, Islam came to Bosnia 500 years after Serb and Croat ethnogenesis (including in Bosnia) was nearing completion.

Regarding the Albanian girl, she pretended to not know Serbian solely because she hates Serbs. When she realized she couldn't effectively communicate with English, we could all see that she spoke grammatically and phonetically perfect Serbian and her case declensions are more correct than mine.

No, I don't know of any Serbo-Croatian words in the English language, except for one: vampire.

Stensland
12-24-2009, 12:03 AM
so your family takes her in, provides "shelter" and even a kid of that age can still come up with enough hatred inside her to resent all things serb? mind-boggling...

you might be right about the assimilation thing. on the other hand, i'm not sure it really works that way over here. most of the immigrant groups still have strong ties to their country of origin, in the balkan's case probably because it's just a short drive over the alps away. i think the situation is different in north america where the journey itself is costly and time-consuming. how often do your parents visit serbia? and how often do you get visited by relatives from serbia? i guess you'd be more involved with your relatives if your family had decided to move to munich or stuttgart.

regarding the ethnicities, do you consider montenegrins as an ethnic group? why did those guys want to break free anyways? i watched some reports about their secessionist movement - but i never quite got their basic concept.

Aloimeh
12-24-2009, 12:30 AM
so your family takes her in, provides "shelter" and even a kid of that age can still come up with enough hatred inside her to resent all things serb? mind-boggling...

you might be right about the assimilation thing. on the other hand, i'm not sure it really works that way over here. most of the immigrant groups still have strong ties to their country of origin, in the balkan's case probably because it's just a short drive over the alps away. i think the situation is different in north america where the journey itself is costly and time-consuming. how often do your parents visit serbia? and how often do you get visited by relatives from serbia? i guess you'd be more involved with your relatives if your family had decided to move to munich or stuttgart.

regarding the ethnicities, do you consider montenegrins as an ethnic group? why did those guys want to break free anyways? i watched some reports about their secessionist movement - but i never quite got their basic concept.

Yes, she was 19 at the time. And guess where her father got his PhD? Belgrade. And guess who drove her from Pristina to Belgrade airport in the middle of a conflict between the Yugoslav army and the KLA? Another Serb. Whatever. These people are so full of hatred that even if you try to do the right thing they still hate you because you "humiliated" them by pitying them and helping them when they were weak.

Her father wasn't even born in Kosovo. He came from Albania and immigrated into the territory by just crossing the border and was given refugee status from the Hoxha regime. So, now, he is a "Kosovar" but Serbs whose ancestors have lived there for centuries are "occupiers".

I'm not saying Serbs or any other ethnic group are above that. I think that's human nature, really.

See Madeleine Albright. The woman is evil. She spent months of her childhood in Belgrade and I believe her family fled via Serbia to London around WWII (can't remember if it was before, during, or after). 50 years later, she's out there trying to bomb a country that gave her refuge.

b_w0YY7M8is

I call this refugee syndrome. Which is why I have a wary view of refugees. I would not be surprised if many refugees in Germany, the US, and other Western countries end up being backstabbers. Look at the Fort Dix Albanians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Fort_Dix_attack_plot Coincidentally, Fort Dix was used to house Albanian refugees in 1999. Nice thank you from them.

My father has only made two visits to ex-Yugo since he came to the US in the late 1970s. In 1992 and actually right now. My mother has gone maybe 10 times since she came to the US. In recent years she has gone about once/year because her mother is ill and she wants to spend as much time with her as she can before she dies.

My grandmother used to come on extended visits but no longer does because she is in poor and unstable health and if she came here she would have no health insurance in the case of a medical crisis. My uncle has visited once, and so has my great aunt. My deceased grandmother and grandfather visited maybe once or twice. None of my cousins have been here except one and we are estranged from him.

Montenegrins are in my view more legitimate of an ethnic group than Bosnians, but historically they themselves have not considered themselves Montenegrin. The referendum just barely passed with 55% of the vote, but you must remember that almost all Muslims and Albanians in Montenegro (and there's a decent number) voted for separation from Serbia, so I would bet that the majority of the Orthodox Christian Slavic population we would call "Montenegrin" were in favor of staying with Serbia.

Socially they are quite different from Serbs. They have clans (like Scottish people), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serb_Clans, they tend to be taller and have somewhat finer features than Serbs, and tend to be a bit darker. Serbs are somewhat closer to Slavs whereas Montenegrins are probably mostly Illyrian, genetically speaking. However, because Serbia was so depopulated by Turks, most of Serbia is settled by people from Montenegro. I have Montenegrin origin on both my mother's and father's sides. A good number of (in)famous Serbs are of Montenegrin origin, including Milosevic, Karadzic (both the politician and the reformer), Milla Jovovich, and Djokovic. There are even some clans that have kinships with the Albanian clans. For instance, my great grandmother's clan - the Vasojevici (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasojevići) - had a brother relationship with the Catholic Krasniqi clan. For this reason, they have a "weaker" reputation amongst the Serbs, whereas my great grandfather's clan - the Rovcani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rovčani) - has a good reputation as a heroic clan. Montenegrins also have a concept called "cojstvo i junastvo" or "humanity and heroicism" which is essentially a code of behavior surrounding honor. They also have cases of blood revenge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krvna_Osveta), like the Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjakmarrja).

In other words, I would consider Montenegrins to be a form of "highland" Serbs, so to speak.

Stensland
12-24-2009, 12:47 AM
fantastic. how do you know all this stuff? it seems like you didn't pick the right job either. ;)

so why did montenegrins want to secede then? most media outlets over here mentioned a fracture within the autonomous region: "ethnic montenegrins" wanted to be free again (as you will know they had been for some time prior to ww1 and some time earlier as well) while serbs voted against the secession. northern montenegro is heavily populated by serbs and voted no, southern montenegro and the coastline voted yes.

why is that? is montenegro more european-minded than serbia?

why do you think albania is still such a shithole and hasn't moved one inch since the early 90s?

Aloimeh
12-24-2009, 01:04 AM
fantastic. how do you know all this stuff? it seems like you didn't pick the right job either. ;)

so why did montenegrins want to secede then? most media outlets over here mentioned a fracture within the autonomous region: "ethnic montenegrins" wanted to be free again (as you will know they had been for some time prior to ww1 and some time earlier as well) while serbs voted against the secession. northern montenegro is heavily populated by serbs and voted no, southern montenegro and the coastline voted yes.

why is that? is montenegro more european-minded than serbia?

why do you think albania is still such a shithole and hasn't moved one inch since the early 90s?

I think they thought Serbia was dragging them down, which in a way it was. Montenegro is no more viable than Kosovo. It's mountainous, rugged land, but very beautiful.

http://www.montenegro.travel/scms/media.php/12848/durmitor.659291.jpg

http://adriaticfanatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/kotor.jpg

http://www.cerna-hora-info.cz/image/budva3.jpg

Its population is something like 500,000. They depended on Serbia (10 million people) for manufactured goods, food, education, culture, etc. and they still do. They could only have tourism. So, because Serbia was in NATO's crosshairs for over a decade, many Montenegrins probably thought, "why are we sticking here if we have this chance to get all the benefits of the EU and stop getting punished by sanctions and even bombs."

I think it is incorrect to say that northern montenegro is populated by Serbs as if these people came from Serbia. Rather, those people in northern Montenegro are as Montenegrin as the coastal ones, but consider themselves Serbs.

Regarding coastal Montenegrins, it is a fact that most coastal Slavs have a comparatively weaker sense of ethnic identity than the inland ones. That applies to Croats in Dalmatia as well as Serbs/Montenegrins. I don't know if that's because of Byzantine or Venetian influence, but it's the reality. So, it's likely that the coastal Montenegrins had much looser ties with the inland core of the Serbs and having been cut off by the Ottoman occupation they came to understand themselves in regional terms.

Regarding Montenegrin independence, it never was fully conquered by the Turks. They are proud of that and consider themselves superior to their neighbors for that. Their vladika was essentially simultaneously a prince and a bishop. One notable one is considered one the most important writers in the Serbian language - Petar Petrovic Njegos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petar_II_Petrović-Njegoš

I don't understand the point of the question re: Europe. The entire region is light years away from the mindset that prevails in Western Europe (and I include Greek in the Balkans). I think the Ottoman occupation led to this trifecta of nation-religion-blood which is strongly engrained in the mindset of everyone in the region and makes it hard for a civic society to be formed. I don't think Serbia is/was opposed to Europe, but much more was asked of Serbia than of Montenegro, namely to lose Kosovo, to give up on historic Serb territories in Croatia (and those people were expelled), and to accept Bosnian Serbs being dominated by Muslims. What did the EU demand of the Montenegrins? Nothing - except, perhaps, secession from Serbia. ;)

As for Albania, I have no idea. It was always a backwater, even during the Roman period when Illyricum (Serbia and Croatia) was actually an important and decently developed region. Why the Albanians are still in this state is not clear to me.

Stensland
12-24-2009, 01:20 AM
again, great insight. this thread is pure gold.

on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the highest, where would you rate ethnic serbs and croats regarding their "industrious"-ness that pd often mentions?

do you know philip zepter and miroslav miskovic? what do you think of them?

and as a follow-up question: did you follow the whole red star belgrade story in the last 6 months? if so, what do you think miskovic is up to?

Aloimeh
12-24-2009, 01:30 AM
again, great insight. this thread is pure gold.

on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the highest, where would you rate ethnic serbs and croats regarding their "industrious"-ness that pd often mentions?

do you know philip zepter and miroslav miskovic? what do you think of them?

and as a follow-up question: did you follow the whole red star belgrade story in the last 6 months? if so, what do you think miskovic is up to?

Funny you ask. Montenegrins are notorious even throughout ex-Yugoslavia for being lazy. They are also known for being brave and heroic during wartime, which I suppose is a form of "work" in the Balkans. ;)

As for Serbs and Croats, meh. Is 10 like Japanese, Koreans, and Germans and 1 Micronesians? Then I'd say Serbs are a 5 and Croats maybe a 6. Bulgarians and Macedonians are probably similar.

Slovenes are really the only disciplined ones of the bunch, I give them an 8. I think they never really fit in Yugoslavia and are in fact a lot more like Czechs and Slovaks and Austrians than southern Slavs. In fact, they probably were somewhere in between those two "poles" of southern and western Slavs but became southern due to the Germanization of Austria.

I never heard of Miskovic or Zepter before but I just googled them. Sound like criminals in the vein of Khodorkovsky, Berezovsky, and the other post-communist thieves/oligarchs.

No, I know nothing about the Red Star Belgrade story. Tell me about it.

Stensland
12-24-2009, 01:48 AM
apparently zepter infiltrated the club's ranks with one of his buddies who posed as an unsuspicious accountant during 2008's (?) annual general meeting. the guy got votes due to his great resumée but nobody checked if he actually worked in those jobs. plus he was lacking competitors as red star had been spending too much money. the job was known for being quite a task.

the guy promised to restructure the whole club and pay off debt. turns out he quadrupled the club's debt within 16 months though - red star is almost bankrupt and BAM, zepter comes in as the white knight, the holy saviour of serbian football. in addition to the club he's trying to buy the stadium, training facilities and lots of land surrounding the plot as well.

i don't think the deal is finalised yet. the story even made news in german sportspapers because we were the only country along with serbia in europe where clubs can't be taken over by businessmen. zepter has lots of buddies in serbia, one of them is the sports minister (don't know his name) who declared the law i just mentioned illegal in 09.

both zepter and miskovic were friends with milosevic.

Slovenes are really the only disciplined ones of the bunch.

they're having issues with the austrians though. this haider guy (you probably know him) really took it to them in carinthia. as far as i know they won the battle re: the town signs.

Aloimeh
12-24-2009, 01:55 AM
apparently zepter infiltrated the club's ranks with one of his buddies who posed as an unsuspicious accountant during 2008's (?) annual general meeting. the guy got votes due to his great resumée but nobody checked if he actually worked in those jobs. plus he was lacking competitors as red star had been spending too much money. the job was known for being quite a task.

the guy promised to restructure the whole club and pay off debt. turns out he quadrupled the club's debt within 16 months though - red star is almost bankrupt and BAM, zepter comes in as the white knight, the holy saviour of serbian football. in addition to the club he's trying to buy the stadium, training facilities and lots of land surrounding the plot as well.

i don't think the deal is finalised yet. the story even made news in german sportspapers because we were the only country along with serbia in europe where clubs can't be taken over by businessmen. zepter has lots of buddies in serbia, one of them is the sports minister (don't know his name) who declared the law i just mentioned illegal in 09.

both zepter and miskovic were friends with milosevic.



they're having issues with the austrians though. this haider guy (you probably know him) really took it to them in carinthia. as far as i know they won the battle re: the town signs.

I'm not surprised. The corruption in Eastern Europe is grotesque. This "democratic" thing is not capable of neutralizing the corruption, unfortunately.

As for the Slovenes, I'm rather glad the Austrians are teaching them what they think of them. Those dorks have been looking down their noses at every single neighbor except the Austrians for years. Glad someone else is doing it to them, for a change. Especially their mentors and role models. They're acting like real gatekeeping bitches towards Croatia right now, and I expect them to do the same with Serbia as well. Kosovo, however, will be A-OK. Lord knows they were egging the KAlbs along the whole time.

Turns out Haider was a gay Slovene-hating neo-fascist. Hilarious, really.

Stensland
12-24-2009, 02:04 AM
it's not like those slovenes settled in austria after 1990 though. the ones haider was bitching about have lived in the area for centuries. the only new thing they apparently didn't see coming was the border a little further south. carinthian slovenes are form a different kind of minority group than serbs or croats who fled yugoslavia during the 90s.

anyways, i'm off work now and need some sleep before christmas. see ya tomorrow buddy. i'm not working the complete night shift til sunday though.

Aloimeh
12-24-2009, 02:07 AM
it's not like those slovenes settled in austria after 1990 though. the ones haider was bitching about have lived in the area for centuries. the only new thing they apparently didn't see coming was the border a little further south. carinthian slovenes are form a different kind of minority group than serbs or croats who fled yugoslavia during the 90s.

anyways, i'm off work now and need some sleep before christmas. see ya tomorrow buddy. i'm not working the complete night shift til sunday though.

Oh, I agree that there should be bilingual signs, just like in Lusatia/Sorbia. Carinthian/Karantanian Slovenes precede the German population. That's not the point. The point is Slovenes have been snoots to everyone but their Austrian role models and I'm glad they're feeling the racism the same way they've been racist towards non-Slovenes living in Slovenia.

Get a good night's rest and have a great Christmas.

scoobs
12-24-2009, 08:17 AM
Agreed. I find my arguments are strengthened through practice and through people (you foremost among them) picking them apart and criticizing them.

What is your line of work, actually?
I do software solutions architecture and implementation, though next month I'm starting a math degree in my own time, which I eventually hope to use to switch careers into something along that line.

Stensland
12-24-2009, 12:33 PM
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/gesellschaft/0,1518,668821,00.html

Islamisierung in Sarajevo

Metropole der Minarette

...big article in today's spiegel: sheiks from the middle east have made sarajevo one of the most active places on earth when it comes to minarets. according to the author most bosniaks dislike the new mosques though and feel alienated by the kind of oriental islam taking over their city. seems like you need to go on a mission, aloimeh. ;)

btw the article is pretty anti-serbian, but that's another issue. i didn't know over 80% of casualties on the terrain of bosnia-hercegovina were of muslim heritage.

merry christmas everyone. :)

Aloimeh
12-24-2009, 02:01 PM
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/gesellschaft/0,1518,668821,00.html

Islamisierung in Sarajevo

Metropole der Minarette

...big article in today's spiegel: sheiks from the middle east have made sarajevo one of the most active places on earth when it comes to minarets. according to the author most bosniaks dislike the new mosques though and feel alienated by the kind of oriental islam taking over their city. seems like you need to go on a mission, aloimeh. ;)

btw the article is pretty anti-serbian, but that's another issue. i didn't know over 80% of casualties on the terrain of bosnia-hercegovina were of muslim heritage.

merry christmas everyone. :)

That's what they say. Meaning the government commission lead by a certain Mirsad Tokaca. At any rate, there are three facts that appear to be clear:

1.) The order of victims, by numbers, are Muslims > Serbs > Croats.

2.) There were more soldiers killed than civilians killed in the case of every ethnic group.

3.) Casualty figures currently stand at ~100,000. In my view, the figure will be revised downward as more rigorous studies are performed.

Btw, I know about the mosques. The Ottoman era mosques had rather nice interiors. Gazi Husrev Begova mosque pre-Wahhabis:

http://www.balkanpazar.org/BegovaInterior.gif

After the Wahhabis got to it, they decided to "clean" it up:

http://www.balkanpazar.org/BegovaInteriorStripped.jpg

Bosnia's Muslims have also radicalized. Young women are now wearing headscarves when they never did so previously.

Aloimeh
12-24-2009, 02:10 PM
Rrrainer, you might enjoy this documentary video. It's pretty funny. It's about a folk song sung throughout the Balkans, with each group thinking it originates with them and having their own set of lyrics. They get mad when suggested otherwise. She goes a bit far with the Bulgarians and Serbs, but otherwise a funny video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4394315735123280123&hl=en#

Merry Christmas!

NinaNina19
12-24-2009, 02:30 PM
Can you tell me more about Bosnian Serbs?

Aloimeh
12-24-2009, 02:35 PM
Can you tell me more about Bosnian Serbs?

What specifically?

Btw, how've you been?

Stensland
12-24-2009, 10:17 PM
3.) Casualty figures currently stand at ~100,000. In my view, the figure will be revised downward as more rigorous studies are performed.

is that gonna happen as long as ethnic bosniaks rule the country? why would they let it happen?

what percentage of religious muslims among bosniaks are we talking about anyways? 10%? 20%? up to 50%? i guess most of them are muslim by name only these days, but maybe the trend is about to reverse. do you happen to know similar figures about albanians (kosovo & the actual country) as well?

would you consider your family as middle class in america?

what would you say is "typically american" about you?

back to tennis (kind of): i don't follow djokovic that much. after those comments on kosovo, has he ever been outspoken about political issues again?

i'm getting to the video now. hope you had a nice day with your family. i've been talking to my granddad about his experiences with the balkans today at dinner. his ww2 trail was silesia - poland - ukraine - russia - back to silesia because of an injury - southern hungary (today), a small town called mohacs as a reserve soldier - refuge in westphalia. he thinks of serbs as indidious partisans while hungarians plus the bunch of ethnic germans in the region cooperated well. gotta add that he didn't really spend a lot of time there, i think it was 1944 already.

he never met any slovene either btw. seems like out whole family has never met one. they're a myth! :D

Aloimeh
12-24-2009, 10:33 PM
Rrrainer, do you really buy into this climate thing? Or are you partly joking?

Har-Tru
12-24-2009, 10:39 PM
what climate thing? do you not believe the climate change is a reality?

Stensland
12-24-2009, 10:42 PM
are you referring to the comment in frankie's thread? i'm not into all the alarmist stuff gore teaches. i didn't wish for that particular book either. but do i believe in global warming? yes, i do. and to tell you the truth i'm fairly stunned you basically don't.

und frohe weihnachten, strunz. :)

Aloimeh
12-24-2009, 10:58 PM
is that gonna happen as long as ethnic bosniaks rule the country? why would they let it happen?

what percentage of religious muslims among bosniaks are we talking about anyways? 10%? 20%? up to 50%? i guess most of them are muslim by name only these days, but maybe the trend is about to reverse. do you happen to know similar figures about albanians (kosovo & the actual country) as well?

would you consider your family as middle class in america?

what would you say is "typically american" about you?

back to tennis (kind of): i don't follow djokovic that much. after those comments on kosovo, has he ever been outspoken about political issues again?

i'm getting to the video now. hope you had a nice day with your family. i've been talking to my granddad about his experiences with the balkans today at dinner. his ww2 trail was silesia - poland - ukraine - russia - back to silesia because of an injury - southern hungary (today), a small town called mohacs as a reserve soldier - refuge in westphalia. he thinks of serbs as indidious partisans while hungarians plus the bunch of ethnic germans in the region cooperated well. gotta add that he didn't really spend a lot of time there, i think it was 1944 already.

he never met any slovene either btw. seems like out whole family has never met one. they're a myth! :D

I think 100,000 is a reasonable number for killed and missing. I think their missing lists will likely undergo some drops as they reconcile names and establish things a little bit better. What I think will be most controversial now is who is a soldier and who is a civilian. The vast majority of the victims on all sides were male, and sometimes it is hard to tell if someone was a soldier, a POW, or a civilian. Naturally, anyone who has a strong bias can infer either way in the absence of strong proof. Another issue is to weed out natural deaths and indirect deaths (e.g. died in hospital because of lack of medication due to war) from deaths resulting from intentional attacks.

Muslims were bandying about a 250,000 figure in 1993 and were claiming something like 90% Muslim victims. They've gone down in both figures, but expect further research to confirm something like 60-65% Muslims, 25-30% Serbs, and 10% Croats out of a total of ~80,000 casualties. Just my suspicion.

I have no stats on Muslims or Kosovo Albanians but I do know that the kind of Islam they have will be a politically potent one. They may break the rules on "little" things like pork, but they are getting hardened into an Islamic identity. They really have nothing else to distinguish them from Serbs and Croats. No independent vein of art or of literature. No language. No genetic difference. Their music is very slightly different, with an emphasis on ballads (sevdalinke) whereas Christians tend to have dances (kolos), but that's just an issue of urbanization. The sevdalinkas arose in urban areas, where Muslims predominated, and kolos were danced in the countryside, where Christians predominated. In Muslim villages, I'm sure they have their own dance forms and Serb towns have a ballad style called starogradske (old town) songs.

Kosovo Albanians are overwhelmingly Muslim, like 90% or more, and the remainder are Catholic. The Muslims are becoming more and more hostile even to their own Catholics. You can see this video (a Czech documentary) and go to 2:27 to see what I'm talking about.

779qk8ZbCKY

Albania is like 50% Muslim/50% Christian. There's something like 30% Orthodox (in the south), 20% Catholic (north), and then 50% Muslims.

I would consider my family to be economically lower middle class but socially/educationally more like middle or upper middle class.

Typically American - my expectations from government, expectations on certain freedoms, hygiene ;) . Otherwise, it's hard to say what is "typical" American. I don't care for pop music or the passion for sports, but that isn't particularly American anymore and exists across the world. I'm not "typical" Serbian either. We don't celebrate a slava, we're not Orthodox, we're not members of a cultural club or anything like that.

I haven't followed Djokovic much. To be honest, he has an irritating (to me) personality that is not at all rare to find among Serb men.

Is that the Mohacs of the famous Battle of Mohacs?

Are you traveling to visit family or does your family live where you do year-round? Any peculiar German Christmas traditions that an American wouldn't know about? I recently went to a Danish Christmas party and the distinctions from our homogeneous "American" Christmas were interesting - foods-wise, at least. I had a mulled wine (called glogg) for the first time, and a kind of rice pudding.

Stensland
12-24-2009, 11:37 PM
They really have nothing else to distinguish them from Serbs and Croats. No independent vein of art or of literature. No language. No genetic difference...

they do get offended the easiest though when you mistake them for some other ethnic group from the balkans. i remember playing football with a kosovar some years ago. another player called him a serb when he picked him for his team - and the guy went completely mental. well, they didn't start a fight or something but you could tell he felt insulted. the youtube clip you posted does seem like they're actually celebrating islam though. why do you feel like it's more a political thing?


I haven't followed Djokovic much. To be honest, he has an irritating (to me) personality that is not at all rare to find among Serb men.

funny. he's been growing on me quite a bit. he seems less needy for attention, doesn't blow his composure in ridiculous fashion anymore and appears to be much more sincere compared to his early stardom. he has matured, i guess. what's that "serb" quality you've detected then?


Is that the Mohacs of the famous Battle of Mohacs?

i think so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moh%C3%A1cs

but my granddad's not closing in on his 400th birthday, so no connection there. ;) according to him it used to be quiet in the early 40s.


Are you traveling to visit family or does your family live where you do year-round? Any peculiar German Christmas traditions that an American wouldn't know about?

we're all pretty much stuck in the same area, parents, grandparents and siblings. "traveling" would be a bit much, it takes only about half an hour to get to their place.

most of the food on christmas eve is of silesian origin - which stems from austria. the silesian soul is austrian in disguise, the whole region, its mindset, its cuisine and traditions have been shaped by austrian emperors over the centuries. for lunch my grandparents prepare silesian weißwürste, mashed potatoes and sauerkraut (man, can i get any more german :D ), for dinner my parents prepare deer. it's some sort of deer goulash, don't know what it's original name is. my mum's family is westphalian though but her parents don't mind if my dad's parents pretty much run the show on 24th.

after that it's the "bescherung" where we exchange gifts, chat and drink for a while. it's usually about 20 people which isn't that much. my parents neighbours have people coming from all over europe to party in a huge barn next to their house (they used to be farmers). interesting side note: they're sort of evangelicals. we don't have that exact term over here, but the whole family's involved in the local church, they pack gifts for romanian kids, sing in the church choir, play instruments, organize trips to visit major domes and churches, help out at the food bank (?) etc.

is there anything particularly serbian about the way you celebrate christmas?

Har-Tru
12-24-2009, 11:43 PM
whereabouts in Westphalia do you live Rainer? you might have told me already but you know, all German places sound the same. :p

Stensland
12-24-2009, 11:48 PM
close to bielefeld. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld

now that i notice it, this must be one of the worst english wikipedia pages about major german towns there is. the german version is much better.

Aloimeh
12-24-2009, 11:51 PM
they do get offended the easiest though when you mistake them for some other ethnic group from the balkans. i remember playing football with a kosovar some years ago. another player called him a serb when he picked him for his team - and the guy went completely mental. well, they didn't start a fight or something but you could tell he felt insulted. the youtube clip you posted does seem like they're actually celebrating islam though. why do you feel like it's more a political thing?

Actually, the video is of Kosovo Albanian Muslim children mocking an Albanian Catholic boy by calling him Mother Teresa and saying they'd like to slit his throat...

Well, because I don't think they are coming to Islam out of genuine interest in it as a faith, but rather because it is, in a sense, their raison d'etre. It also gives them good motivation for further wars if they can consider their neighbors to be dirty infidels.

what's that "serb" quality you've detected then?

Unbridled pride and arrogance.

we're all pretty much stuck in the same area, parents, grandparents and siblings. "traveling" would be a bit much, it takes only about half an hour to get to their place.

most of the food on christmas eve is of silesian origin - which stems from austria. the silesian soul is austrian in disguise, the whole region, its mindset, its cuisine and traditions have been shaped by austrian emperors over the centuries. for lunch my grandparents prepare silesian weißwürste, mashed potatoes and sauerkraut (man, can i get any more german :D ), for dinner my parents prepare deer. it's some sort of deer goulash, don't know what it's original name is. my mum's family is westphalian though but her parents don't mind if my dad's parents pretty much run the show on 24th.

after that it's the "bescherung" where we exchange gifts, chat and drink for a while. it's usually about 20 people which isn't that much. my parents neighbours have people coming from all over europe to party in a huge barn next to their house (they used to be farmers). interesting side note: they're sort of evangelicals. we don't have that exact term over here, but the whole family's involved in the local church, they pack gifts for romanian kids, sing in the church choir, play instruments, organize trips to visit major domes and churches, help out at the food bank (?) etc.

is there anything particularly serbian about the way you celebrate christmas?

Is most of your celebration on the 24th or 25th? No, my Christmas is very understated. We don't keep a tree or give gifts.

Serbian Christmas is January 7th and a big part of it is the badnjak, a dead oak branch that is burnt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badnjak

Pagan, and not something I'd ever do...

An interesting tradition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Christmas_traditions), and one my mother's family practiced, was to go out on the road and pick the first person passing the house as an honored guest, who shares the meal and receives a special bread loaf with a silver coin in it. At least that's what my mother says they used to do...

Aloimeh
12-24-2009, 11:52 PM
close to bielefeld. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld

now that i notice it, this must be one of the worst english wikipedia pages about major german towns there is. the german version is much better.

You are lucky to live in a beautiful place steeped in history and full of architectural testaments to it.

Har-Tru
12-25-2009, 12:03 AM
Bielefeld is ugly...

;)

Stensland
12-25-2009, 12:15 AM
Actually, the video is of Kosovo Albanian Muslim children mocking an Albanian Catholic boy by calling him Mother Teresa and saying they'd like to slit his throat...

they're showing people praying and being completely "in the zone" religiously though, if you will. that's why i was wondering. don't underestimate islam's appeal, it speaks to many lost and weak souls because of its finality.


Is most of your celebration on the 24th or 25th? No, my Christmas is very understated. We don't keep a tree or give gifts.

we're eating out tomorrow (lunch, on my mum's parents so they're even) and that's about it. yeah, most of the actual celebration is on the 24th. this is the only time in the whole year we all go to church - and churches are PACKED today, i tell ya.

you're like the most cryptical evangelical i've ever heard of: no tree, no gifts...why not? is christmas to you something you celebrate inside, without all the hustle and bustle and the ever-escalating consuming?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badnjak
Although Serbian public religious celebrations, as those of other peoples, were discouraged in Socialist Yugoslavia until the early 1990s, they continued among Serbian Americans. The public badnjak ceremony was held in Serbian Orthodox parishes in the United States during that period,[17][18] as it is today.[16]


ever been to one of those?


You are lucky to live in a beautiful place steeped in history and full of architectural testaments to it.

:lol:...bielefeld gets ridiculed 24/7 in germany. compared to most other cities of the same size it is viewed as a dull place. they even came up with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_Conspiracy

eastern westphalia used to be treated the same way. most people still talk down on the region. it's fairly rural, true, but it's among the best-developed and richest areas of germany. little debt, very green and very high industrial output with tons of family-run global players - plus several billionaires residing among the regular folks, no fences, no bodyguards, nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miele
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertelsmann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Oetker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benteler_AG etc.

Har-Tru
12-25-2009, 12:26 AM
Bielefeld gibt's nicht!

:haha:

I literally laughed my arse out when I heard that. :lol:

Har-Tru
12-25-2009, 12:28 AM
May I say Germany is not alone in that kind of hoaxes. The Spanish equivalent is the city of Teruel (which mind you is more than ten times smaller than Bielefeld).

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 12:28 AM
they're showing people praying and being completely "in the zone" religiously though, if you will. that's why i was wondering. don't underestimate islam's appeal, it speaks to many lost and weak souls because of its finality.

Yes, I suppose I do underestimate Islam. I take a very dim view of the whole thing, and that also means being condescending to its theology. I'm not saying the Balkan Muslim radicalization is opportunistic, only that it is being driven by political considerations. It was conflicts that set off the radicalization, the distinction between what was Christian (nominally, of course) and what was Muslims. The influx of Saudi and Iranian influence is also directly tied to politics, as these guys were often financing the Muslim armies during the wars or even sending over volunteers.

we're eating out tomorrow (lunch, on my mum's parents so they're even) and that's about it. yeah, most of the actual celebration is on the 24th. this is the only time in the whole year we all go to church - and churches are PACKED today, i tell ya.

Is Christmas more important than Easter in German culture?

you're like the most cryptical evangelical i've ever heard of: no tree, no gifts...why not? is christmas to you something you celebrate inside, without all the hustle and bustle and the ever-escalating consuming?

Yeah, I know I'm not typically anything. Basically, I consider the gift giving, the badnjak, Christmas trees, etc. to be relics of paganism, so I dislike participating in them. I won't go out of my way to root everything out. I still celebrate on December 25th, even though I know it's connected to the solstice. I do so because we don't know what the real date of Christ's birth was and late December is as good as any, I suppose. Yeah, I dislike the consumerism. I tried the whole gifts thing with my family one year and felt sort of empty after we exchanged gifts - it wasn't at all satisfying.

Jeremiah 10

1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

:lol:...bielefeld gets ridiculed 24/7 in germany. compared to most other cities of the same size it is viewed as a dull place. they even came up with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_Conspiracy

eastern westphalia used to be treated the same way. most people still talk down on the region. it's fairly rural, true, but it's among the best-developed and richest areas of germany. little debt, very green and very high industrial output with tons of family-run global players - plus several billionaires residing among the regular folks, no fences, no bodyguards, nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miele
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertelsmann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Oetker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benteler_AG etc.

To be honest, I had never even heard of the place, but I don't think it's bad for a place to be sort of quiet and "stable." Btw, how is Aachen looked upon?

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 12:30 AM
May I say Germany is not alone in that kind of hoaxes. The Spanish equivalent is the city of Teruel (which mind you is more than ten times smaller than Bielefeld).

Teruel looks stunning. Are you from there?

Har-Tru
12-25-2009, 12:39 AM
I'm from 40 km south of Valencia, Spain's third largest city. But I studied in Castellón which borders with Teruel province and do know people from there. :) And now I live in Münster which is not far from Bielefeld. So I've actually BEEN to both places, which aren't supposed to exist. :lol:

Stensland
12-25-2009, 12:45 AM
Yes, I suppose I do underestimate Islam...


what's your take on the nato mission in afghanistan? do you support a troop surge? are we better off if we leave the place alone? after all, the soviets didn't get the job done either...


Is Christmas more important than Easter in German culture?

much more, it's no contest. we hardly do anything during the easter days. my parents used to hide chocolate eggs in the yard back when we were kids, don't know if that tradition exists in america. but religion, the whole easter story etc. plays no role in my family whatsoever.


Yeah, I know I'm not typically anything. Basically, I consider the gift giving, the badnjak, Christmas trees, etc. to be relics of paganism, so I dislike participating in them. I won't go out of my way to root everything out. I still celebrate on December 25th, even though I know it's connected to the solstice.

you do get together with your family though, right?


I do so because we don't know what the real date of Christ's birth was and late December is as good as any, I suppose. Yeah, I dislike the consumerism. I tried the whole gifts thing with my family one year and felt sort of empty after we exchanged gifts - it wasn't at all satisfying.

honestly i can't imagine christmas without gifts. that's what christmas is about for me, the only reason why ilet them drag me into church year after year. i am one sorry man in your eyes, i guess. ;)


To be honest, I had never even heard of the place, but I don't think it's bad for a place to be sort of quiet and "stable." Btw, how is Aachen looked upon?

aachen is okay, nothing special. they have the rwth, a friend of mine has just finished some mechanical thing there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RWTH_Aachen

do you live in a planned city or in a town that has grown "naturally"? i'm generally intrigued by the arrangement of american cities, on the other hand i find the european formation of old cores and subsequent suburbanisation over the centuries pretty interesting as well.

Stensland
12-25-2009, 12:52 AM
jose, we gotta meet up someday. chances are we'll eventually bump into each other on some feldweg anyways. ;)

Har-Tru
12-25-2009, 01:00 AM
I don't do feldwege too often. :lol: Only with my boss in the car richtung pott or when I get lost with the bike. But sure meet up. :)

Stensland
12-25-2009, 01:03 AM
"richtung pott"...wow, that was unbelievably colloquial for a foreigner. :eek:

do people still detect a spanish accent at all when you talk?

*edit: you did get the pun with the feldwege though (rural countryside in ostwestfalen etc...), right? it just occured to me that there might be some slight sexual connotation in there - well, not for me and surely not on first sight, but this is mtf, so... ;)
*anotheredit: obviously hardly anybody speaks german on mtf, so forget about the first edit as nobody except for you would've gotten the pun anyways. never mind.

Har-Tru
12-25-2009, 01:08 AM
haha easy man :lol: when you meet me you'll see my German is still pretty rudimentary... the accent is just the smallest of flaws. After all I've only lived a total of 16 months in Germany and studied the language since I was 18 and not too thoroughly (English was my Hauptfach). But at least I'm fluent and mistakes aren't too common nor blatant, which is encouraging. :)

Poor Aloimeh, we're hijacking his thread. :o

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 01:15 AM
what's your take on the nato mission in afghanistan? do you support a troop surge? are we better off if we leave the place alone? after all, the soviets didn't get the job done either...

I think it's a joke. They're bunkered up in Kabul, like proper cowards, while the Taleban is only stronger and stronger. And Afghanistan has nothing to do with North Atlantic security. We should have left the place alone and we should leave it immediately. It's a hellhole.

much more, it's no contest. we hardly do anything during the easter days. my parents used to hide chocolate eggs in the yard back when we were kids, don't know if that tradition exists in america. but religion, the whole easter story etc. plays no role in my family whatsoever.

I ask because Easter is by far more important in Orthodox Christianity, and my impression is that Christmas dominates in the West. At least it does in the US.

you do get together with your family though, right?

Yes, most times. Not this year since my parents are in Serbia right now.

honestly i can't imagine christmas without gifts. that's what christmas is about for me, the only reason why ilet them drag me into church year after year. i am one sorry man in your eyes, i guess. ;)

Not sorry at all. I have nothing but respect for you. No condescension, excepting your views global warming. ;)

aachen is okay, nothing special. they have the rwth, a friend of mine has just finished some mechanical thing there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RWTH_Aachen

It's the first place I'd go to in Germany. I've been wanting to see the cathedral and the Palatine chapel for some time.

do you live in a planned city or in a town that has grown "naturally"? i'm generally intrigued by the arrangement of american cities, on the other hand i find the european formation of old cores and subsequent suburbanisation over the centuries pretty interesting as well.

It's a city that grew on its own.

Btw, any ideas on why there are so many gays on MTF?

Har-Tru
12-25-2009, 01:19 AM
I didn't see no pun Rainer... it's late anyway. :)

EDIT: I mean I understood it as literally the urban roads or paths...

Stensland
12-25-2009, 01:33 AM
I didn't see no pun Rainer... it's late anyway. :)

EDIT: I mean I understood it as literally the urban roads or paths...

ohhhhh...nonononononono. :D i was going for the image of ostwestfalen there, like "there are supposedly so few people here that since we're both in the same area we will meet some day anyways - so we might as well do it on purpose." a feldweg is a rural path, most of the time unpaved, leading from one farm to another, just the way the rest of germany pictures ostwestfalen. did you get that? if so, forget E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G i just tried to explain. ;)

OR i just don't understand what a pun actually is. :confused:

No condescension, excepting your views global warming.

i'll tell frankie to pass the book on to you. big al is gonna getch'all. :D ;)

Btw, any ideas on why there are so many gays on MTF?

as someone who has no gay friend (don't know why, just never happened) i can only assume that tennis itself appeals to the gay community. i have no idea why though. maybe a combination of intense fights and style/technique, plus the lack of hatred, swearing and mud. :D i'm partly kidding.

do you have an idea why gays are such a force on mtf?

Stensland
12-25-2009, 01:36 AM
It's the first place I'd go to in Germany. I've been wanting to see the cathedral and the Palatine chapel for some time.


seriously, you're not typical anything. most people think of southern germany as their first stop, like munich, stuttgart, the alps, neuschwanstein and the likes.

what else would you be interested in once you're done in aachen?

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 01:39 AM
seriously, you're not typical anything. most people think of southern germany as their first stop, like munich, stuttgart, the alps, neuschwanstein and the likes.

what else would you be interested in once you're done in aachen?

Speyer, Mainz, Dresden, and Worms. Then Wittenberg, Rugen/Arkona, Leipzig, the source of the Danube, and Weimar.

Stensland
12-25-2009, 01:41 AM
:eek: you knew those places from scratch?

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 01:44 AM
:eek: you knew those places from scratch?

Actually, why are you up right now? Isn't it nearly 4 AM where you are? I thought you weren't working tonight. Do you usually keep such late nights?

Har-Tru
12-25-2009, 01:47 AM
I understood that Rainer, the unpaved paths typically connecting Bauernhöfe. That's the landscape my boss and I see when we're driving to the South. A pun is a Wortspiel.

Aloimeh, Speyer is a must. Absolutely stunning romanesque Cathedral.

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 01:49 AM
I understood that Rainer, the unpaved paths typically connecting Bauernhöfe. That's the landscape my boss and I see when we're driving to the South. A pun is a Wortspiel.

Aloimeh, Speyer is a must. Absolutely stunning romanesque Cathedral.

That is exactly why I wanted to see it. You're a mindreader.

Har-Tru
12-25-2009, 01:50 AM
well it's pretty much all that small town is known for. ;)

Stensland
12-25-2009, 01:51 AM
i'm at home right now. i got to bed at about 5 am yesterday (=today) and slept til about 12 am - i'm not tired. night shifts usually fuck up my "inner clock". why is there no english expression for "innere uhr" OR "biorhythmus"? hope you get what i mean nonetheless.

btw jose, if you wanna meet me at night ;) you can come to the autobahnraststätte obergassel. that's where i'm working (studentenjob) the night shift now and then. now THAT sounds much more creepy than the feldweg thing. :lol:

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 01:52 AM
well it's pretty much all that small town is known for. ;)

And the fact that the common Jewish name Shapiro comes from Speyer.

Stensland
12-25-2009, 01:53 AM
That is exactly why I wanted to see it. You're a mindreader.

that was easy though. ;)

wittenberg because of luther?

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 01:55 AM
well it's pretty much all that small town is known for. ;)

Btw, are you an afficionado of architecture? Romanesque is one of my favorites, along with Byzantine, Mudejar, and Italian Gothic.

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 01:56 AM
that was easy though. ;)

wittenberg because of luther?

Yep.

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 01:57 AM
that was easy though. ;)

wittenberg because of luther?

Rrrainer, have you been to the US? What have you or would you like to see?

Har-Tru
12-25-2009, 02:02 AM
i'm at home right now. i got to bed at about 5 am yesterday (=today) and slept til about 12 am - i'm not tired. night shifts usually fuck up my "inner clock". why is there no english expression for "innere uhr" OR "biorhythmus"? hope you get what i mean nonetheless.

btw jose, if you wanna meet me at night ;) you can come to the autobahnraststätte obergassel. that's where i'm working (studentenjob) the night shift now and then. now THAT sounds much more creepy than the feldweg thing. :lol:

Creepy indeed. :scared: What's wrong with safe, crowded, daylight lit cafes? :p

And the fact that the common Jewish name Shapiro comes from Speyer.

That I didn't know.

Btw, are you an afficionado of architecture? Romanesque is one of my favorites, along with Byzantine, Mudejar, and Italian Gothic.

Sort of. Although my knowledge is sparse. This church I saw in Cologne the other day impressed me. Gross Sankt Martin Kirche is its name.

http://images.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=tbn&q=http://www.cityinfo-koeln.de/uploads/gross-st-martin.jpg&usg=AFQjCNHQEYWu0UeUMBy_-YoYQKfcmRGeMw

Stensland
12-25-2009, 02:03 AM
And the fact that the common Jewish name Shapiro comes from Speyer.

yeah they have tons of toponymics. from known ones like mannheimer, frankfurter or kissinger to irregular ones like lifshitz (leobschütz) or heilprin (heilbronn).

the most interesting ones are the americanized surnames though. there's this producer mark ronson (got a grammy for working with amy winehouse). i never really noticed his surname as i thought it'd be just like hobson, dodson, gibson etc., like a regular english patronymic surname. turns out he's jewish, his early ancestors had the name aronsohn (son of aaron).

the same goes for all the katnelsons in america - they came from katzenelnbogen - and many others.

Stensland
12-25-2009, 02:06 AM
Creepy indeed. :scared: What's wrong with safe, crowded, daylight lit cafes? :p


well, in my case (work): the daytime pay is nowhere near night shift cash. regarding the future meeting: sure. :)

Stensland
12-25-2009, 02:12 AM
Rrrainer, have you been to the US? What have you or would you like to see?

i was in california some 12 years ago with my family. we got an rv and drove from the bay area over to lake tahoe and then southwards to la. and i was in nyc in 2003 with a friend of mine. we did the regular sightseeing stuff, empire state, statue of liberty, central park, ground zero, times square.

we never got to actually meet real americans though. unfortunately you won't be able to help me out either - you're not the kind of american i accept as an actual cross section of the population (you know what i mean).

i think what i wanna see is the midwest and the south. and mount rushmore. :)

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 02:19 AM
My favorite, but not in Germany ;) :

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Hck48zg24cU/SbvDGGmyJeI/AAAAAAAAAA8/xstExXqtdNs/s400/2_hagia_sofia_belulrol.jpg

Hmm, other favorites:

http://www.comuni-italiani.it/imco/065/006/duomo.jpg

http://www.craigporter.com/images/holidays/italia2003/siena/siena_cathedral01.jpg

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Travel/Russia/Moscow/Highlights/StBasilsWithStatue.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Orvieto_Duomo_z01.jpg

http://vatopaidi.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/alexander-nevsky-cathedral-sofia2.jpg

http://www.fantasie.sic.it/FOTO%20MONREALE/800px-Monreale-bjs-1.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1227/1102465357_9f03878037.jpg?v=0

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 02:47 AM
i was in california some 12 years ago with my family. we got an rv and drove from the bay area over to lake tahoe and then southwards to la. and i was in nyc in 2003 with a friend of mine. we did the regular sightseeing stuff, empire state, statue of liberty, central park, ground zero, times square.

we never got to actually meet real americans though. unfortunately you won't be able to help me out either - you're not the kind of american i accept as an actual cross section of the population (you know what i mean).

i think what i wanna see is the midwest and the south. and mount rushmore. :)

Oh, no worries, I haven't seen much of the US myself, so I wouldn't be a great guide at all.

What do you think of PD? His posts are getting more and more bizarre.

NinaNina19
12-25-2009, 03:28 AM
Why didn't you think I was Christian?

~*BGT*~
12-25-2009, 03:58 AM
Rrrainer, come to New Orleans! :banana:

prima donna
12-25-2009, 04:28 AM
What do you think of PD? His posts are getting more and more bizarre.
You don't say. How so.

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 02:59 PM
Song of the day:

ULzXJ6PAnco

Hristos se rodi!

Merry Christmas!

Stensland
12-25-2009, 05:02 PM
What do you think of PD? His posts are getting more and more bizarre.

i think he's interesting. still not sure if he puts on a show or not. the way he presents himself sounds like a prototype robot of some sort of...i don't even know what. anyways, if new york's upper east side would be able to build a new member of its elite circle from scratch, pd would be the result.

but actually he's kinda growing on me. i guess i understand his "world" a bit better than i used to some months/years ago - but i don't believe i wanna live in it. ;)

re the clip you posted, what music do you listen to generally? you've stated your dislike for pop culture, so i take it you're a fan of classical music?

do you find buddhism or hinduism any interesting? even though islam is a hot button issue in germany, as of now people who convert to these religions still outnumber those who convert to islam.

before you were taking on your medical education, did a religion-affiliated job ever cross your mind (pastor, lecturer etc.)?


Rrrainer, come to New Orleans!

new orleans is certainly one of the places i'd be interested in as well. i like its spirit (most of what i've been reading was prior to katrina, but the spirit itself has probably never left the city) and the coloured houses the french (?) came up with. not a sucker of jazz or blues though as i'm not really melancholic enough, i guess. ;)

when i come over the next time i'm gonna take a southern route, like i i said. i'll give ya a ring. :wavey:

i take it you're from n.o., right? if i may ask, did you stay in the city during katrina? how was your life affected?

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 05:15 PM
You don't say. How so.

Well, for instance your response to the laughing/smiling question and about you wanting your daughter to never marry and take care of you for the rest of her life. I don't know if you are joking or serious when you make such absurd points.

Aside from that and your obsession with the Ivy League and money, you're somewhat reasonable.

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 05:28 PM
I hope you had a great Christmas lunch with your family today, Rrrainer. Are you on break through the New Year or do you have to work next week?

re the clip you posted, what music do you listen to generally? you've stated your dislike for pop culture, so i take it you're a fan of classical music?

Mostly classical music. My favorite composers are Bach, Mozart, and Dvorak, but I like most of the classical composers. I also like various forms of folk music, mostly the Eastern European or Middle Eastern types, but definitely would be interested in other "ethnic" musics. I posted a Mahalia Jackson clip, which is sort of outside my realm. My mother loved to listen to her and when I was growing up I didn't really appreciate it, but now I do. There's so much truth in that voice.

My favorite classical piece is Dvorak's Cello Concerto:

psEKUzba5MA

eKwltQiOQ20

4qt-N11bTM4

vljgU8Iydb0

2RWESJ3pnAU

IftKMWLEcv0

My favorite "ethnic" songs are...well I have a ton. One that a lot of people seem to enjoy is Ajde Jano:

IV39lF7sKdI

0E9e6NKNruM

do you find buddhism or hinduism any interesting? even though islam is a hot button issue in germany, as of now people who convert to these religions still outnumber those who convert to islam.

To be honest, I don't know enough about them to say whether I find them interesting or not. I think they appeal to people of a philosophical bent and to those with tendencies of pantheism, which I think all the rage nowadays. The Abrahamic religions, with their "thou shalt...thou shalt not" are not particularly popular in the modern West. Too bad most Westerners don't realize that Christianity is very different from the other Abrahamic religions and eastern religions.

before you were taking on your medical education, did a religion-affiliated job ever cross your mind (pastor, lecturer etc.)?

I did think of it as a child, when I was in the 5th or 6th grades. I still could definitely see myself as a medical missionary. I'm not the best public speaker, though, but I think that God gives you the ability if He chooses to use you in a certain capacity.

~*BGT*~
12-25-2009, 05:31 PM
new orleans is certainly one of the places i'd be interested in as well. i like its spirit (most of what i've been reading was prior to katrina, but the spirit itself has probably never left the city) and the coloured houses the french (?) came up with. not a sucker of jazz or blues though as i'm not really melancholic enough, i guess. ;)

when i come over the next time i'm gonna take a southern route, like i i said. i'll give ya a ring. :wavey:

i take it you're from n.o., right? if i may ask, did you stay in the city during katrina? how was your life affected?

No, I'm from Baton Rouge, about a hour's drive from NOLA. :wavey: If you come down, let me know and I'll meet you there. :) We got hit by Katrina but it definitely wasn't as bad. The Mississippi River passes through the city and we have levees but we're at sea level so we didn't have to worry about flooding. I did go to NOLA the January after Katrina hit and it was like visiting a ghost town. Everything was shut down. There were no people there. You could see all of those beautiful homes in the historic Garden District ruined. They have spraypainted X's on the doors that showed that they had already been checked for bodies. There were water marks on the walls along the freeway that showed how high the water reached. It was very sad. But it's great to come back and now and see how the city flourishes. :D I want to move there when I graduate from school. :D

Stensland
12-25-2009, 05:49 PM
most of the folk songs sound very melancholic. do you have that sort of melancholy inside you, did serbs take over the "russian soul" from its brothers?

thisi s precisely what my granddad listens to btw. (well, german songs obviously ;) ). then he gets teary-eyed and dreamy and starts talking about "the simpler time back then". as i said, silesians are like austrians: big heart, weak, melodramatic and very attached to the roots.

do you have similar feelings when you listen to the folk songs?

what do you think of the hungarian dances by brahms? pretty much the only classical composition i really love.

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 06:01 PM
most of the folk songs sound very melancholic. do you have that sort of melancholy inside you, did serbs take over the "russian soul" from its brothers?

I think most Slavic music is like this. Listen to Chopin's mazurkas or polonaises or Dvorak's music and you'll hear it. Not to mention the Russians. My favorite opera aria, also by Dvorak:

108UxfghrB8

and my favorite symphonic movement, No. 8, Scherzo

Ok4f-U56zc8

The lyrics to Ajde Jano:

Come on, Jana, let's dance the kolo.
Come on, Jana, let's sell the horse.
We'll sell them just so we can dance.
Come on Jana, let's sell the house.
We'll sell it just so we can dance.

I don't understand what it really means, though.

Marche Slave by Tchaikovsky is also based on some Serbian folk songs that I don't know. Also pretty melancholic.

5poSw7tFLB4

thisi s precisely what my granddad listens to btw. (well, german songs obviously ;) ). then he gets teary-eyed and dreamy and starts talking about "the simpler time back then". as i said, silesians are like austrians: big heart, weak, melodramatic and very attached to the roots.

Are the German folk songs also melancholic?

do you have similar feelings when you listen to the folk songs?

Yes, I do. There is a certain yearning there that naturally lies well in my soul. Perhaps coincidentally, or not, I also like Gypsy, Jews, Greek, and Armenian music, which tend to have a minor vein quite often (especially Gypsy and Jewish).

what do you think of the hungarian dances by brahms? pretty much the only classical composition i really love.

Musically I think they are light, but certainly something I enjoy a great deal. I am actually more moved emotionally by something "dry" and "mathematical" like Bach. I love his famous Toccata and Fugue and his Passacaglia.

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 06:05 PM
Btw, Rrrainer, how rooted are the German composers in German folk music?

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 06:14 PM
This one is borderline erotic:

X0El-5rFNKQ

Hey pigeon, my pigeon
Hey pigeon, my pigeon
Dont fall on my raspberries, green wood
dont fall on my raspberries, red rose

The raspberries are yet green
the raspberries are yet green
when the raspberries are ripe, green wood
when raspberries are ripe, red rose

they will fall on their own
they will fall on their own
like maiden's tears, green wood
maiden's and youth's, red rose

Apparently,
Pigeon = man
Raspberries = breasts

prima donna
12-25-2009, 06:21 PM
Well, for instance your response to the laughing/smiling question and about you wanting your daughter to never marry and take care of you for the rest of her life. I don't know if you are joking or serious when you make such absurd points.
Actually, we will be taking care of her, not the other way around. Work will be optional in her case. You're not a father, so it's understandable why you might not relate to, say, wanting to protect your non-existent children. Marriage is a form of enslavement for women. Men are, for the most part, petulant children incapable of so much as even wiping their own asses. Why in the world would I want such a lifestyle for my daughter ?

Hm, wanting my child to eschew work and opportunistic swine -- such an absurdity.

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 06:24 PM
Actually, we will be taking care of her, not the other way around. Work will be optional. You're not a father, so it's understandable why you might not relate to, say, wanting to protect your non-existent children. Marriage is a form of enslavement for women. Men are, for the most part, petulant children incapable of so much as even wiping their own asses. Why in the world would I want such a lifestyle for my daughter ?

I understand the desire to protect. Trust me, my mother is this way also. She's so overprotective and devoted that most times, growing up, people thought we were Jewish. A stereotype, I know, but not entirely off.

However, she wants us to experience the same life she has or much, much better. That means marital happiness and having children.

I agree that men are often very immature and that societies in which women dominate tend to be more successful overall because women are more organized and more mature, but that's besides the point.

If you have a son, will you want him to remain with you or will you inflict his petulant puerility on some other unfortunate girl?

prima donna
12-25-2009, 06:35 PM
My son would hopefully learn a thing or two, which would spare some innocent soul a great deal of heartache. I also disagree with your contention that marriage and children are conducive to happiness. One can lead an ascetic and austere existence without surrending one's joy, while millions of married couples are quite miserable under the very circumstances which you outline. More important, education and culture are invaluable. I think parents should encourage their daughters to follow the path of literacy, refinement and snobbery, as opposed to servitude, ignorance and naivete.

Stensland
12-25-2009, 06:39 PM
Are the German folk songs also melancholic?

some of them are, but i think the majority isn't. it pretty much depends on what region we're talking about here as the songs stem from a period of time when germany consisted of several sub-states. unlike slavic folk songs the german songs i know tend to be written for brass instruments which makes the tunes a bit more lively and to some extent less soulful.

this is probably the best-known song out there (no brass instruments here though, but still fairly chipper). hoffmann von fallersleben was responsible for the german national anthem as well.

die gedanken sind frei ("thoughts are free")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ckRHhxkfss

another well-known song, here sung by former german president walter scheel:

hoch auf dem gelben wagen ("high upon the yellow carriage", it's about a stagecoach)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef-I9AQZVRM


Yes, I do. There is a certain yearning there that naturally lies well in my soul. Perhaps coincidentally, or not, I also like Gypsy, Jews, Greek, and Armenian music, which tend to have a minor vein quite often (especially Gypsy and Jewish).

what do you think of oriental music? many arabic songs tend to have a different kind of nostalgic feeling but it's there nonetheless.

do you like this kind of music or is it too "poppy" for you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB5npe5eTp8 shakira - gypsy

Stensland
12-25-2009, 06:46 PM
Btw, Rrrainer, how rooted are the German composers in German folk music?

i'm not sure i get what you mean. but i'm already sure i won't be knowledgeable enough to satisfy your thirst for knowledge on this particular subject. you probably know way more about german composers than i do myself.

now that i think of it, did you happen to watch the kill bill movies? japanese folk music should be a perfect match for you. it's full of drama, full of unfulfilled desires. i mean, listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qsgBF7ZIsk

i think the composer is romanian though. :o

others:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRIE-txyA3w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV8JlNdcOEs&feature=related etc.

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 06:49 PM
what do you think of oriental music? many arabic songs tend to have a different kind of nostalgic feeling but it's there nonetheless.

do you like this kind of music or is it too "poppy" for you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB5npe5eTp8 shakira - gypsy

Too poppy for me. I agree that Arabic music is also somewhat nostalgic but a different "texture" than the Jewish or Gypsy or Slavic kind. I haven't listened to enough to develop some favorites.

This is a Gypsy favorite. Not good musically by any means, but still somewhat fun and gets at the playfulness of the Gypsies:

VfN5vzgbFBw

die gedanken sind frei ("thoughts are free")

Certainly an unusual and perhaps advanced title.

hoffmann von fallersleben was responsible for the german national anthem as well.

I thought the tune of the German anthem was by Haydn?

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 06:57 PM
i'm not sure i get what you mean. but i'm already sure i won't be knowledgeable enough to satisfy your thirst for knowledge on this particular subject. you probably know way more about german composers than i do myself.

now that i think of it, did you happen to watch the kill bill movies? japanese folk music should be a perfect match for you. it's full of drama, full of unfulfilled desires. i mean, listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qsgBF7ZIsk

i think the composer is romanian though. :o

others:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRIE-txyA3w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV8JlNdcOEs&feature=related etc.

I never watched those movies.

I like some of the Japanese ballads. I'm not sure how folk they are and how much they are built on Western models. I Found a Tiny Autumn and Red Dragonfly and Moon over Castle Ruins are my favorites.

u3HlAodbA8g

9KdvGMJp2Lo

RH6voYkDD3I

And I actually like the Japanese anthem very much. Very unique and, well, Japanese.

Stensland
12-25-2009, 07:03 PM
Certainly an unusual and perhaps advanced title.

very advanced compared to what my grandparents grew up to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yoNiLqRstY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst-Wessel-Lied


I thought the tune of the German anthem was by Haydn?

fallersleben was a poet, he came up with the lyrics.

what's your favorite national anthem? mine is the russian one. thank god they kept the old soviet hymn in place. such a classy tune.

the english one is pretty great too.

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 07:04 PM
My son would hopefully learn a thing or two, which would spare some innocent soul a great deal of heartache. I also disagree with your contention that marriage and children are conducive to happiness. One can lead an ascetic and austere existence without surrending one's joy, while millions of married couples are quite miserable under the very circumstances which you outline. More important, education and culture are invaluable. I think parents should encourage their daughters to follow the path of literacy, refinement and snobbery, as opposed to servitude, ignorance and naivete.

Why can't there be some nice Jewish boy for your daughter who knows how to behave properly?

I'm not saying they are conducive. I'm OK with remaining single for the rest of my life. Just saying that it is highly likely that at some point your daughter will fall in love and will want to get married. And that's normal.

What exactly entitles your daughter to a life of idle snobbery? Servitude? Ignorance? How is your wife a slave/ignorant by being married to you? Or your mother to your father?

You certainly have some very strange views...

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 07:06 PM
very advanced compared to what my grandparents grew up to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yoNiLqRstY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst-Wessel-Lied



fallersleben was a poet, he came up with the lyrics.

what's your favorite national anthem? mine is the russian one. thank god they kept the old soviet hymn in place. such a classy tune.

the english one is pretty great too.

My favorites are the English, German, Russian, and Japanese.

Also like the Hungarian one a lot. I think the words are remarkable, too.

Stensland
12-25-2009, 07:07 PM
this "aka tombo" bit sounds familiar to me. do they use the melody in some well-known opera? it must be a well-known one - because otherwise i wouldn't have heard of it. ;)

Stensland
12-25-2009, 07:18 PM
what do you invest in? what would you invest in if you had $1 million right now?

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 07:20 PM
what do you invest in? what would you invest in if you had $1 million right now?

Nothing. I have no cash to spare. (See PMs to determine where my cash goes).

If I had $1 million, I would pay off all family debts, purchase a home for my parents, and invest the rest in gold.

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 07:21 PM
this "aka tombo" bit sounds familiar to me. do they use the melody in some well-known opera? it must be a well-known one - because otherwise i wouldn't have heard of it. ;)

Maybe. I heard it in two Japanese restaurants ( ;) ) in different parts of the US, so apparently it's pretty popular. Did Puccini plagiarize it in Madama Butterfly? Better to ask PD that.

Stensland
12-25-2009, 07:22 PM
speaking of gold, what do you think of ron paul?

are there any tv shows you don't wanna miss?

Aloimeh
12-25-2009, 07:30 PM
speaking of gold, what do you think of ron paul?

are there any tv shows you don't wanna miss?

I think Ron Paul is an intelligent, solid, decent (as far as they can be) politician. I think he's right on the economy and I prefer his isolationism to the democrats and the neo-cons we have vying for power. I think he doesn't quite have the breadth of history knowledge I would appreciate in my president, but it is comparable or superior to that of Obama, Clinton, or either of the Bushes.

Currently I watch Castle, a crime/writer show. Not bad but nothing I'm crazy about. I like watching Nature/Nova but am not terribly impressed with their shows recently. It's often dumbed down, scientifically speaking. I think "Queen of Trees" was a fascinating episode I could only catch the last few minutes of and I wish more was on Youtube:

KMNPZPYCCw4

I should probably buy the DVD on credit some day.

I liked watching Frasier when it was on. That was my favorite show. I don't know if you've seen it in Germany.

Stensland
12-25-2009, 07:48 PM
frasier wasn't embraced like other sitcoms (king of queens, friends, two and a half men) but it did run over here.

what hollywood blockbusters did you recently watch? how often do you go to the movies?

do you like the coen brothers' body of work so far?

Stensland
12-26-2009, 12:42 AM
btw do you have a serbian first name or did your parents give you an english name? i thin i've asked that before (think you do have a serbian one) - just can't find it. do you have one first name or more?

what do you think of the general idea of giving children several first names? in germany it's fairly common to have lots of names (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Theodor_zu_Guttenberg for example, although he's really pushing it due to his noble origins; they usually get carried away).

do you think the west should adopt spanish naming customs, meaning that the father's surname as well as the mother's maiden name would be attached to the first name(s)?

would you expect your wife to drop her name?

Aloimeh
12-26-2009, 03:53 AM
frasier wasn't embraced like other sitcoms (king of queens, friends, two and a half men) but it did run over here.

what hollywood blockbusters did you recently watch? how often do you go to the movies?

do you like the coen brothers' body of work so far?

I haven't watched any holywood blockbusters in ages. I go very rarely to movies. Last movie I watched was probably Prince Caspian.

I haven't watched the Coen brothers' work.

Aloimeh
12-26-2009, 03:56 AM
btw do you have a serbian first name or did your parents give you an english name? i thin i've asked that before (think you do have a serbian one) - just can't find it. do you have one first name or more?

what do you think of the general idea of giving children several first names? in germany it's fairly common to have lots of names (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Theodor_zu_Guttenberg for example, although he's really pushing it due to his noble origins; they usually get carried away).

do you think the west should adopt spanish naming customs, meaning that the father's surname as well as the mother's maiden name would be attached to the first name(s)?

would you expect your wife to drop her name?

Yes, my first name is Serbian, but of Biblical origin, so it has a simple Western counterpart. Sometimes I wish my parents had given me the English version. It would make things easier. I only have one first name.

I dislike multiple first or last names. Just a thing, not that I have any good reasons for my dislike.

I see no problem with incorporating mother's first names, but I would do it more as a middle name. My middle name is my mother's maiden name, and my sister's middle name is her paternal grandmother's maiden name. I suppose if there was a third child in the family s/he would have the maternal grandmother's maiden name.

I don't expect my wife to drop her surname at all. My mom kept hers and my dad never had a problem with it.

Stensland
12-26-2009, 02:01 PM
...Sometimes I wish my parents had given me the English version. It would make things easier. It would make things easier.

i remember you talking about being more or less insulted because of your heritage during your childhood. have you ever had problems during your adult life as well?

zeleni
12-26-2009, 02:28 PM
Can you read in Serbian? If you can, do you sometimes read something (books, internet sites)?

Who do you consider the greatest American ever? Who do you consider the greatest living American?

What do you think symbols and inscriptions on one dollar bill represent? This (http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/currency/portraits.shtml#q3) is official explanation. Did you get any explanation in school?

Aloimeh
12-26-2009, 03:45 PM
i remember you talking about being more or less insulted because of your heritage during your childhood. have you ever had problems during your adult life as well?

Well, I've gotten over childhood issues. It's more a barrier to assimilation. Plenty of Americans have weird surnames, and people don't probe that. But when your name is not typical American it intrigues them what it is. They can't see me as anything other than foreign/immigrant. They ask the origin of the name.

I typically give an evasive answer, like saying "my parents came to the US from the former Yugoslavia." It gets dicey when they start probing "oh, which part of ex-Yugoslavia." I can just sense the shadow coming into their face and their seeing me as this evil person because of my origins. What really irritates me is that they come with all sorts of assumptions and they never would have the interest or take the time to ask me about the history and "my version" of events.

I have only once been asked honestly and at length (~1 hr or longer) about the history and current events of the region, without assumptions being made. That was a young Chinese-Canadian visiting student to the US. Almost everyone else knows the history and politics better than I do, apparently. So be it, then.

I can tell you, if my experience has been even 1/10 of what the typical Jewish experience is/was - where people look at your name and suddenly look at you in a twisted and evil light - I don't envy them that.

And to be honest, a lot of Germans get that too. Europeans and Americans are obsessed with WWII and continue to look at ethnic Germans and German culture through a WWII lens. It's like they're the embodiment of evil.

Partly I think it is because most Europeans (excepting Germans, of course) and Americans don't know enough about their own brutal and disgusting history that they get these self-righteous attitudes which allow them to look down on the "evil ones."

Aloimeh
12-26-2009, 03:53 PM
Can you read in Serbian? If you can, do you sometimes read something (books, internet sites)?

Who do you consider the greatest American ever? Who do you consider the greatest living American?

What do you think symbols and inscriptions on one dollar bill represent? This (http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/currency/portraits.shtml#q3) is official explanation. Did you get any explanation in school?

Yes, but slowly. I can read much more rapidly the Latin script than Cyrillic. I find "boxy" Cyrillic very difficult to slog through. I much prefer the cursive form. I can understand most of the vocabulary. I'll read an internet site sometimes, and I hope some day to read some books.

Hmm, probably Abraham Lincoln. I think he was a refined, scholarly man, but also had principles and strength. I don't like warmongers, but that war was pushed on him and most of the nasty things of the war (e.g. the torching of Atlanta) were done by renegade generals.

Living American? The pastor of the church I grew up in. For his dedication to expository teaching of the Bible and helping Christians to self-teach themselves the Word of God.

No, I never learned what those symbols mean. I believe they are rooted in freemasonry, as many of the early US presidents and even down to the present day are/were freemasons. But I don't understand the symbolism.

Stensland
12-26-2009, 04:07 PM
I can tell you, if my experience has been even 1/10 of what the typical Jewish experience is/was - where people look at your name and suddenly look at you in a twisted and evil light - I don't envy them that.

jews get those weird looks as well? where you live? you mean jewish surnames spark general interest - or do people subconsciously dissociate themselves from people once they find out mr. shlomo rosenberg has ancestors in haifa?

did you ever feel like people flat out refuse to deal with you because of your family's origin?


And to be honest, a lot of Germans get that too. Europeans and Americans are obsessed with WWII and continue to look at ethnic Germans and German culture through a WWII lens. It's like they're the embodiment of evil.

yeah i know. well, concerning national clichés i guess we're doing okay nonetheless: tags like disciplined, industrious, inventive, reliable etc. make up for the negative aspects like ww2, lack of humour or lederhosen. ;)

i'm not sure if i wanna be in other countries' shoes, like argentina, russia, poland or china.

what are serbian clichés according to americans (except for the war thing)?

Aloimeh
12-26-2009, 04:16 PM
jews get those weird looks as well? where you live? you mean jewish surnames spark general interest - or do people subconsciously dissociate themselves from people once they find out mr. shlomo rosenberg has ancestors in haifa?

did you ever feel like people flat out refuse to deal with you because of your family's origin?

I am sure Jews in this country get that attitude. I've had too many "American" American family friends who've made snide remarks about Jews, as well as East and South Asians (meaning Chinese and Indians), who are pretty anti-Jewish too.

The veneer of tolerance that exists in the US is merely a covering over the very real racisms people carry within. I hear anti-Asian or anti-black snipes in my own home on occasion.

I've been in a Romanian Jewish family's home and the way they talk about blacks and Muslims is just disgusting.

I've been in an Orthodox Jewish home and the lady told us point blank that she doesn't know "any nice Gentiles" (us excepted of course). Why thank you! 6 billion people go down the trashcan.

I KNOW that blacks, Asians, Jews, Muslims, other minority groups, etc. speak nasty things about whites and about each other in their own homes.

This country is full of ethnic backbiting and ethnic hatred, suppressed by a well-ordered legal system. I have no doubt that if the state took upon itself to wipe one or another group, or if revolution broke out, there would be many people not only willing by eager to participate in atrocity.

yeah i know. well, concerning national clichés i guess we're doing okay nonetheless: tags like disciplined, industrious, inventive, reliable etc. make up for the negative aspects like ww2, lack of humour or lederhosen. ;)

i'm not sure if i wanna be in other countries' shoes, like argentina, russia, poland or china.

what are serbian clichés according to americans (except for the war thing)?

Not that many, since it's a small community. It's not like the "stupid Pole" jokes or the "greedy Jew" jokes. Serbian cliches: tendency to heavy drinking and drunkenness, tendency to violence, little/mini Russians (with all the bad ideas people have of Russians here), communists/fascists/racists/anti-Semites, Orthodox mystics, Slavs = slaves, pseudo-Caucasian, etc.

My sister's (Southern) college friend once asked her what race Serbs were. While not insulting in and of itself, the implications are clear. And the ignorance is astounding.

Stensland
12-26-2009, 07:37 PM
would you/could you forgive your wife if she betrayed you with another man...

a)...and you found out about it on your own?

b)...and she told you about it?

Aloimeh
12-26-2009, 07:44 PM
would you/could you forgive your wife if she betrayed you with another man...

a)...and you found out about it on your own?

b)...and she told you about it?

Hard to say. I guess I find out if it happens. I'm generally a forgiving person, but I'd worry about her repeating it, and nobody wants to be the fool.

You?

Stensland
12-26-2009, 07:48 PM
same here. i'd expected a more religious answer from you, to be honest.

Aloimeh
12-26-2009, 07:55 PM
same here. i'd expected a more religious answer from you, to be honest.

Like what, I'd flog her and stone her? :haha:

I do think adultery should be a criminal offense, though.

Stensland
12-27-2009, 04:10 AM
i'd have thought you'd be more about forgiving and reconciling.

how strong do you feel about marriage as an institution anyways? given the scenario of your wife being with another man, would you do everything possible to keep the marriage going?

could you imagine living together with someone for the rest of your life who just doesn't want to get married?

Aloimeh
12-27-2009, 04:47 AM
i'd have thought you'd be more about forgiving and reconciling.

how strong do you feel about marriage as an institution anyways? given the scenario of your wife being with another man, would you do everything possible to keep the marriage going?

could you imagine living together with someone for the rest of your life who just doesn't want to get married?

Christ does say that adultery is grounds for a Christian divorce. Also, if your spouse leaves you, it is acceptable to not reconcile with them and let them go their own way.

I don't know that I'd do everything possible to keep the marriage going. I'd expect kids to be an issue. Obviously you want to protect them.

No, no sex before marriage for me, so no live-in arrangements without marriage either.

Listen to this, a truly awful story: this young Christian man who's ~28 got married to his wife at ~25. She said she was Christian, went to his church, etc. He kept himself pure before marriage, expecting to be married till one of them died, to have children, etc. 2 years into the marriage, she finds a lesbian lover, leaves him, and divorces him. According to Christianity, he is not allowed to remarry after divorce while his ex-wife is alive. So he is so embittered because he shouldn't remarry, he has no kids, and his wife divorced him after 2 years and is now with a woman. I really pity that guy, and it's quite frightening how marriages can turn out in the end.

~*BGT*~
12-27-2009, 04:51 AM
But as you said (and I agree with this), adultery is the only accepted grounds for divorce. So the man is no longer bound to his wife. He is free to remarry :shrug:

Aloimeh
12-27-2009, 04:58 AM
But as you said (and I agree with this), adultery is the only accepted grounds for divorce. So the man is no longer bound to his wife. He is free to remarry :shrug:

How would you interpret Matthew 19

3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

As being OK with remarriage if your spouse committed adultery against you? That is unclear to me... It seems that divorce without grounds of adultery and then remarriage constitutes adultery, but I'm not sure on whether a divorce as a result of adultery means that the victim party is justified in remarrying.

~*BGT*~
12-27-2009, 05:01 AM
I don't read the KJV so that is hard to understand, but I take that scripture to mean if you divorce your spouse except on the grounds of fornication/adultery, and marry another, then you have committed adultery, because in God's eyes, you are still married to your first spouse. And the one who marries your first spouse has also committed adultery.

Aloimeh
12-27-2009, 05:03 AM
I don't read the KJV so that is hard to understand, but I take that scripture to mean if you divorce your spouse except on the grounds of fornication/adultery, and marry another, then you have committed adultery, because in God's eyes, you are still married to your first spouse. And the one who marries your first spouse has also committed adultery.

Exactly. But if you divorce on grounds of adultery, does that mean you, as the one who has been wronged, are entitled to remarry or not? I used to be very clear on this but the wording is a little bit tricky, I think. The exception Christ makes for adultery, I am not sure if it only applies to the divorce part or the divorce+remarriage as a whole.

~*BGT*~
12-27-2009, 05:04 AM
In addition, the Bible's words at 1 Corinthians 7:10-16, while encouraging marriage mates to stay together, allow for separation. Some, after trying very hard to preserve their marriage, feel they have no choice but to separate. What can be acceptable Scriptural grounds for such a step?

One is willful nonsupport. When getting married, a husband assumes the responsibility of providing for his wife and children. The man who willfully fails to provide the material necessities of life "has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith." (1 Timothy 5:8) So separation is possible.

Another is extreme physical abuse. So then, if a mate physically abuses his wife, the victim may separate. (Galatians 5:19-21; Titus 1:7) "Anyone loving violence [God's] soul certainly hates."—Psalm 11:5.

Another ground for separation is the absolute endangerment of a believer's spirituality—one's relationship with God. When a mate's opposition, perhaps including physical restraint, has made it impossible to pursue true worship and has imperiled the believer's spirituality, then some believers have found it necessary to separate.*—Matthew 22:37; Acts 5:27-32.

However, if divorce is pursued under such circumstances, one would not be free to enter a new marriage. According to the Bible, the only legitimate ground for divorce that permits remarriage is adultery or "fornication." —Matthew 5:32.

~*BGT*~
12-27-2009, 05:05 AM
Exactly. But if you divorce on grounds of adultery, does that mean you, as the one who has been wronged, are entitled to remarry or not? I used to be very clear on this but the wording is a little bit tricky, I think. The exception Christ makes for adultery, I am not sure if it only applies to the divorce part or the divorce+remarriage as a whole.

See my post above

Aloimeh
12-27-2009, 05:14 AM
See my post above

I agree absolutely. Separation for the other things, but not outright divorce.

But still, do you think that the man whose wife left him for a lesbian and divorced him should be "allowed" (meaning, is it OK, Biblically) to remarry while his ex-wife is alive? I have no doubts about the justification of the divorce (if he had initiated it, that is).

~*BGT*~
12-27-2009, 05:19 AM
If she slept with the woman (in whatever forms two women can have intercourse), then she has committed adultery and after the divorce in finalized, he is free to remarry.

Aloimeh
12-27-2009, 05:23 AM
If she slept with the woman (in whatever forms two women can have intercourse), then she has committed adultery and after the divorce in finalized, he is free to remarry.

So you think the remarriage in all cases goes in tandem with the divorce. If the divorce is OK, then the remarriage is also OK, right?

Stensland
12-27-2009, 05:29 AM
how often do you read the bible? daily?

~*BGT*~
12-27-2009, 05:35 AM
So you think the remarriage in all cases goes in tandem with the divorce. If the divorce is OK, then the remarriage is also OK, right?

I believe so, yes. If my husband cheated on me, and we decided to divorce rather than reconcile, I would have no qualms with remarrying and would feel no guilt because I think God would bless that decision.

Aloimeh
12-27-2009, 05:36 AM
how often do you read the bible? daily?

Yes. I was 10 and I thought burglars were breaking into the house (I was alone at night, my parents and sister were at a dinner...nowadays that would be sufficient to take me into child protective services for child neglect ;) ), so I prayed to God to spare me and swore to read the Bible every day since then. Generally, oaths are not good to make but I try to keep them.

~*BGT*~
12-27-2009, 05:37 AM
Was anyone found trying to break into your house?

Aloimeh
12-27-2009, 05:37 AM
I believe so, yes. If my husband cheated on me, and we decided to divorce rather than reconcile, I would have no qualms with remarrying and would feel no guilt because I think God would bless that decision.

Yeah, I did not use to think that most of my life until a month ago I heard of this story and reread the verses and suddenly it became much more confusing to me. I tend to agree with you.

I also understood as marriage = sexual consummation before, but now I understand it properly as a contract, so the adultery annuls the contract.

Aloimeh
12-27-2009, 05:38 AM
Was anyone found trying to break into your house?

No, I did not call the police and there was no evidence of any attempted break in.

Probably my freaked out self panicking at the wind rushing through the walls. :haha:

~*BGT*~
12-27-2009, 05:42 AM
Yeah, I did not use to think that most of my life until a month ago I heard of this story and reread the verses and suddenly it became much more confusing to me. I tend to agree with you.

I also understood as marriage = sexual consummation before, but now I understand it properly as a contract, so the adultery annuls the contract.

Exactly! :yeah:

What players are you a fan of?

GustavoM_Fan
12-27-2009, 05:57 AM
1.What would be the 1st words you will say to God if in some way/moment you can talk to him?
2.Describe how you think is the Heaven?. what about the hell?
3.How many people in MTF is going to the hell following your stadistics? :sad:
4. What other sports you like? (considering u like tennis ) Do you practice any of these?
5. How many Unites States states you visited? what you liked more?

Aloimeh
12-27-2009, 06:17 AM
Exactly! :yeah:

What players are you a fan of?

Was of Djokovic, but I'm tired of his arrogance. Now, not really of any.

~*BGT*~
12-27-2009, 06:22 AM
What are your favorite scriptures? I like:

1 Peter 3:15
1 Tim. 6:9,10
2 Cor. 4:7
Matthew 7:11
Proverbs 17:17

Growing up, I love 1 Thes. 4:11, "Make it your aim to live quietly and to mind your own business." I threw that one at anyone who got on my nerves :lol:

Aloimeh
12-27-2009, 06:23 AM
1.What would be the 1st words you will say to God if in some way/moment you can talk to him?
2.Describe how you think is the Heaven?. what about the hell?
3.How many people in MTF is going to the hell following your stadistics? :sad:
4. What other sports you like? (considering u like tennis ) Do you practice any of these?
5. How many Unites States states you visited? what you liked more?

1.) The question doesn't work because salvation through Christ is assured. But my inclination would be to ask for mercy because of my sins.
2.) I have no idea. I cannot speculate. You have to read Revelation about the New Jerusalem, the 12 jewel foundations and 12 pearl gates, the river of life, the tree of life, Christ in the great city, etc. The final judgment for the lost is the lake of fire, a place of consuming flame, smoke, and sulfur, of torment. Both are eternal destinies.
3.) I have no idea.
4.) Olympic swimming and gymnastics and track are OK. Not really an avid fan of sports that much.
5.) 12 states

~*BGT*~
12-27-2009, 06:25 AM
Do you like Olympic diving? What do you think about Alex Despatie?

Aloimeh
12-27-2009, 06:25 AM
What are your favorite scriptures? I like:

1 Peter 3:15
1 Tim. 6:9,10
2 Cor. 4:7
Matthew 7:11
Proverbs 17:17

Growing up, I love 1 Thes. 4:11, "Make it your aim to live quietly and to mind your own business." I threw that one at anyone who got on my nerves :lol:

KJV version: 11And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

I do find Revelation and Daniel exciting, I generally like prophecies. Luke is my favorite gospel. Genesis, Psalms, Acts, Isaiah, Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, and Hebrews.

Aloimeh
12-27-2009, 06:26 AM
Do you like Olympic diving? What do you think about Alex Despatie?

It's OK. It's a little too fast. It all happens so suddenly and there's no time to take it all in. I've never heard of Despatie. Is he from New Orleans? Do you know him personally?

~*BGT*~
12-27-2009, 06:32 AM
I wish I knew him. :inlove: No, Alex is from Quebec.. he's a Quebecois. Technically not a far stretch from the Acadians and the Cajuns. He won the silver medal in 3 m springboard in the 2004 and 2008 Olympic Games. 2004 was amazing because he was just 19. 2008 was amazing as well because he had broken his foot a few months before and the Chinese contingent was very deep. In fact, he and an Australian diver (I believe) were the only two non-Chinese divers to win medals in all the diving events.

I went to school with a girl who brother competed in the 2004 Olympics in diving. He came and spoke to my school and afterwards I talked to him about Alex and he said they are good friends :)