Del Potro, Murray, and Simon on clay [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Del Potro, Murray, and Simon on clay

NinaNina19
12-07-2008, 01:29 AM
Who will do the best come clay court season? None of them did anything until the hardcourt season this year except for Murray who won 2 titles early in the year and got to the QF of WB. Who will be the best? I think it's between Murray and Del Potro.

fast_clay
12-07-2008, 01:45 AM
this thread should be titled... 'If I sandwich the word Murray between the words Simon and del Potro, will anyone notice that I am a Murray fan?'

seriously tho...

I vote Del Potro... Murray may still be 2 or 3 years away from title winning form on clay anywhere other than Casablanca... I'll be happy to be proven otherwise tho...

finishingmove
12-07-2008, 01:45 AM
andy murray will win roland garros

gaynor
12-07-2008, 01:50 AM
Well Murray has lost to Simon on clay before and Simon has improved since then. However, given it's the only surface where he isn't dominant I hope he will work on it next year. Maybe he can get Corretja to help him and they should have some better results than this year, hopefully Roland Garros QF or SF and a Masters Final

Corey Feldman
12-07-2008, 01:50 AM
this will be the year Andy does something on clay

French QF's at least

Simon will be a nobody again next year

Sunset of Age
12-07-2008, 01:51 AM
Too early to say right now.

Judging on what I've seen from these players so far (not as much judging on their HC results), I think Muzza is by far the most talented player of these three. He's sort-of a chameleon - adapts his playing style very well to that of his opponents. Not sure if he manages to do this as well on clay court as he well as does on HC, though. I expect him to be a lot more of a force on the clay than he's been showing so far.

Simon is a very tough grinder-type of player, and yes, I can well see him do well on clay as it looks like the surface will suit his game.

As for DelPotro - have to say that his main strength lies within his serve, and usually that doesn't mean all too much against the REAL great clay court players (I know he's won a lot of tournaments on the surface, but face it - those weren't against the really good clay court-players around - Rafa, Fed, Davidenko, to name just a few) - and it's a know fact that a good serve tends to get neutralized on the surface.

I give the odds to Muzza right now, but for now we'll just have to wait and see what will happen!

scoobs
12-07-2008, 02:05 AM
Well Murray has lost to Simon on clay before and Simon has improved since then. However, given it's the only surface where he isn't dominant I hope he will work on it next year. Maybe he can get Corretja to help him and they should have some better results than this year, hopefully Roland Garros QF or SF and a Masters Final
Murray has beaten Simon on clay since then anyway - Hamburg this year.

Sunset of Age
12-07-2008, 02:07 AM
Murray has beaten Simon on clay since then anyway - Hamburg this year.

Simon has improved a LOT since then, though.

l_mac
12-07-2008, 02:41 AM
Too early to say right now.

Judging on what I've seen from these players so far (not as much judging on their HC results), I think Muzza is by far the most talented player of these three. He's sort-of a chameleon - adapts his playing style very well to that of his opponents. Not sure if he manages to do this as well on clay court as he well as does on HC, though. I expect him to be a lot more of a force on the clay than he's been showing so far.

Simon is a very tough grinder-type of player, and yes, I can well see him do well on clay as it looks like the surface will suit his game.

As for DelPotro - have to say that his main strength lies within his serve, and usually that doesn't mean all too much against the REAL great clay court players (I know he's won a lot of tournaments on the surface, but face it - those weren't against the really good clay court-players around - Rafa, Fed, Davidenko, to name just a few) - and it's a know fact that a good serve tends to get neutralized on the surface.

I give the odds to Muzza right now, but for now we'll just have to wait and see what will happen!
Del Potro's main strength is his serve!?
Murray has beaten Simon on clay since then anyway - Hamburg this year.

Simon has improved a LOT since then, though.

One could argue that Murray has also improved a LOT.

Sunset of Age
12-07-2008, 02:43 AM
Del Potro's main strength is his serve!?

Yes, imho, it is, or rather, it should be. But of course, my opinion is futile compared to yours. :)

One could argue that Murray has also improved a LOT.

Indeed. That's why I give him the odds for this. ;)

fast_clay
12-07-2008, 02:44 AM
this thread isnt right...

Kolya
12-07-2008, 03:57 AM
Simon.

Thanos
12-07-2008, 04:06 AM
simon grinding style is suited to clay

Lee
12-07-2008, 04:07 AM
Del Potro's main strength is his serve!?



From what I saw of Del Potro live on hard court, yes, serve is his strength although not very reliable.

Sunset of Age
12-07-2008, 04:08 AM
From what I saw of Del Potro live on hard court, yes, serve is his strength although not very reliable.

Exactly. Things are expected to be quite different on clay, though.

New Balls Please
12-07-2008, 06:46 AM
Too early to say right now.


As for DelPotro - have to say that his main strength lies within his serve, and usually that doesn't mean all too much against the REAL great clay court players (I know he's won a lot of tournaments on the surface, but face it - those weren't against the really good clay court-players around - Rafa, Fed, Davidenko, to name just a few) - and it's a know fact that a good serve tends to get neutralized on the surface.


But didn't JMPD thrash Davydenko in the Davis Cup semis on clay, or was that due to Davydenko being in a slump at the time?

duong
12-07-2008, 07:54 AM
From what I saw of Del Potro live on hard court, yes, serve is his strength although not very reliable.

You and Stupid Dream haven't seen him enough, that's all,

because this is totally wrong.

IMO, Del Potro has the style most adapted to clay, whereas Murray and Simon are more used to blocking the other player's shot.

By the way, even on hard court, Murray wasn't comfortable at all when he played Del Potro in the US Open. Both of them might have won the match. In the end of the year, Del Potro had problems with his toe and was not "reliable", that's for sure.

Nevertheless, both Murray and Simon are able to do very well on clay. Murray has the best potential but Simon has had good results on clay so far (beating Davydenko, Robredo, Canas...)
... but IMO, in a best-of-5 match on clay, Simon's physical condition is still too limited for Roland-Garros.
Monfils has a better potential for Roland-Garros for that reason.

Sunset of Age
12-07-2008, 03:54 PM
But didn't JMPD thrash Davydenko in the Davis Cup semis on clay, or was that due to Davydenko being in a slump at the time?

That was my thought indeed. Wasn't that during the period that Denko said himself that he 'found no fun in playing tennis anymore', or words with that sort of meaning? Of course, any a result in tennis comes forth from the level of playing of both players, so this is not meant in anyway to discredit JMDP's victory.

You and Stupid Dream haven't seen him enough, that's all,

because this is totally wrong.

Obviously, I have only seen him play at the slams and master series tournaments, as the smaller tournaments don't get broadcasted here (and I need time for WORKING as well of course). But I can't say I haven't seen enough of him to say that indeed, his serve is/should be his major weapon. That of course does not mean that I think it is his only weapon.

IMO, Del Potro has the style most adapted to clay, whereas Murray and Simon are more used to blocking the other player's shot.

By the way, even on hard court, Murray wasn't comfortable at all when he played Del Potro in the US Open. Both of them might have won the match. In the end of the year, Del Potro had problems with his toe and was not "reliable", that's for sure.

I just don't know, the only thing I can tell for sure is that I think JMDP's style of playing works very well on HC - at least that's what I have SEEN with my own eyes. That match against Murray at the USO is a perfect example of that. As for now, it's impossible to say how he'll do against the REAL good clay courters imho.

Nevertheless, both Murray and Simon are able to do very well on clay. Murray has the best potential but Simon has had good results on clay so far (beating Davydenko, Robredo, Canas...)
... but IMO, in a best-of-5 match on clay, Simon's physical condition is still too limited for Roland-Garros.
Monfils has a better potential for Roland-Garros for that reason.

Could well be. I have no doubt that Simon's physical condition will improve in the near future just like Muzza's has. His recent success will surely prompt him to work on it a bit more I think.

As for Monfils... I'm not ruling him out either. :)

Serenidad
12-07-2008, 04:01 PM
Murray doesn't have a bad clay game with the exception that he lacks a heavy kick serve. His flat serve is already low percentage and it will not yield as many free points on clay. He has a good dropshot, good return, a willingness to rally, increased fitness, solid movement, anticipation. I'm surprised that he has not done a little better on clay in the past. Maybe his groundies are too flat as well. :shrug:

Nathaliia
12-07-2008, 04:19 PM
I've never really noticed it was Nina who always start all these Murray threads, until the ACC :lol: She'd smuggle Murray even to a challenger forum ;)

To speak on topic, Murray learnt some of his tennis in Spain at junior age, one would think it should actually make him a very good claycourter.

Simon does well in these MM events and JMDP also should do alright. It is about if a player is good or not good overall; clay is fast these days.

duong
12-07-2008, 04:42 PM
Obviously, I have only seen him play at the slams and master series tournaments, as the smaller tournaments don't get broadcasted here (and I need time for WORKING as well of course). But I can't say I haven't seen enough of him to say that indeed, his serve is/should be his major weapon. That of course does not mean that I think it is his only weapon.

I just don't know, the only thing I can tell for sure is that I think JMDP's style of playing works very well on HC - at least that's what I have SEEN with my own eyes. That match against Murray at the USO is a perfect example of that. As for now, it's impossible to say how he'll do against the REAL good clay courters imho.

I've seen him play on clay in Stuttgart and Kitzbuhel last year (I also saw him against Nadal in Roland-Garros when he was much younger and less solid). His style is great for that.

He has a very solid and regular forehand and backhand,
and he can accelerate them, especially the forehand.

On clay, it's very important to be able to accelerate slow balls, you cannot just block shots as Murray and Simon like to do : you have to accelerate them by your own force,

and it's very important to make very big shots from both sides and to both directions.

If you are not able to do that, you can't get winners and you get tired more quickly.

JMDP's forehand and backhand are his best shots so far, even though his serve can become very powerful. And JMDP is also a fighter (and was educated on clay), which is very important on this surface

Murray has to be far more aggressive to win on clay, that's the main issue for him, I think. But anyway, considering his recent improvements, he can be very dangerous on clay, especially if he gets more aggressive ... and also more concentrated, that's his other problem on clay.

As for Simon, I really doubt he can get enough physical condition for a best-of-5 match at highest level, considering his very exhausting game, especially on clay where he can't get easy winners.

finishingmove
12-07-2008, 04:53 PM
duong makes a good point. murray and simon like the low bouncing hardcourts where they can hit accurate low pace balls without getting punished. they lack the power in their angled shots. simon basically has no power of that kind, and murray is not far ahead.

if murray could develop a semi-decent cc fh then he'd have something to compete with.

Corey Feldman
12-07-2008, 05:29 PM
20 c***s posted here i see

EDIT: 19, because i let Nina away with it

;)

timafi
12-07-2008, 05:57 PM
there are better movers than Murray on clay and Murray's drop shots get 2 predictable and as much as he's improved fitness wise;I don't see this guy winning back to back 5 set matches against the best clay court players around.
He's not all that patient even if he has also improved in that dept
his sliding is still somewhat suspect
you would think that after growing up in spain he'd have much better results on clay:shrug:

no way in hell 4 Murray 2 win a title on red slow clay when the best clay courters are fit;healthy and playing well at the same time and he's sup-par on clay
so far he's proven 2 be a hard court specialist considering all of his titles have been won on hard courts a la James Blake even if he plays well on grass



in the next 2-3 years;if he wants 2 be #1;Andy's gonna have 2 get his clay game 2gether and be a contender ALL year around and on ALL surfaces:shrug:

Simon-Del Potro>>Murray 4 now on clay

stebs
12-07-2008, 08:23 PM
Interesting question actually and especially so because all three of these players can be seen to have notably improved between the clay season and the off season.

With Simon, it remains to be seen whether or not he will actually continue to be any kind of top player when tennis comes back. That kind of style has been seen to go on runs winning some big matches and making waves before disappearing all too often.

Murray doesn't really seem to know what he wants to be on clay. The mixture between defence and attack makes for some fun points whilst watching the Scot but consistent results won't come from that and he needs to take it easy with the drop shot for sure.

As for Del Potro's biggest weapon bieng his serve, :o. Absolutely not. Earlier in the year that was his biggest weakness and whilst he stepped it up toward the end of the year as of now it is still a hit and miss shot and not a reliable source of wins. His steady power from the back is what took him to the TMC this year and that should be something that can work on clay.

We will have to wait and see of course, who can acheive the most in '09.

scoobs
12-07-2008, 08:33 PM
The thing with Murray on clay, judging by his first full season this year, is that he needs to be patient but he also needs to be more aggressive - at this level, great claycourters are exceptional defenders but they know how to attack on clay to win points. I think Andy has been still too reliant on his defensive skills, thinking that's the key thing to winning on clay - but it's not enough.

stebs
12-07-2008, 09:40 PM
The thing with Murray on clay, judging by his first full season this year, is that he needs to be patient but he also needs to be more aggressive - at this level, great claycourters are exceptional defenders but they know how to attack on clay to win points. I think Andy has been still too reliant on his defensive skills, thinking that's the key thing to winning on clay - but it's not enough.

I'm not saying it's the right way to do things but top results can come out of exceptional defensive skills with modest attack. The problem I saw for Murray last year was that what we call defending on clay for the most part is actually about trying to keep the point neutral with consistency. Murray falls back into court and gives opposition short balls too much. Sure, the points we remember from great defensive clay players are thos in which they scramble to make great defensive winners but the bulk of points aren't won like that.

Lee
12-08-2008, 06:22 AM
You and Stupid Dream haven't seen him enough, that's all,

because this is totally wrong.



As for Del Potro's biggest weapon bieng his serve, :o. Absolutely not. Earlier in the year that was his biggest weakness and whilst he stepped it up toward the end of the year as of now it is still a hit and miss shot and not a reliable source of wins. His steady power from the back is what took him to the TMC this year and that should be something that can work on clay.

We will have to wait and see of course, who can acheive the most in '09.

I haven't watched any of his matches on TV and the live matches I watched were all in Indian Wells. I am 100% sure you two had not watched them because they were not on telelvised court. :p From watching those matches, I can only conclude he had a big serve but not very reliable. I also noticed he has a powerful forehand, not hitting every forehand hard, but he can suddenly hit a flat and very fast forehand out of nowhere. His backhand did not impress me very much from those matches though. :shrug: I will probably play more attention during the clay season coming year.

Benzilla7
12-08-2008, 06:37 AM
Not Simon, hopefully Murray :D

stebs
12-08-2008, 12:37 PM
I haven't watched any of his matches on TV and the live matches I watched were all in Indian Wells.

:shrug: I watched a lot of matches of Del Potro this year and he can play a few sets serving at a high percentage and boom down a load of aces but when he does that it is a bonus, not the norm. The consistency of his fairly heavy groundies from the back is what took him to the top 10 this year.

Byrd
12-08-2008, 02:15 PM
The only things that prevent Murray from being a good claycourter is lack of variation in serve e.g no kick serve & bad 2nd serve, shot selection, being too passive at times, and not being able to slide properly. Thinking about it, that is quite a bit :lol:

Lee
12-08-2008, 05:00 PM
:shrug: I watched a lot of matches of Del Potro this year and he can play a few sets serving at a high percentage and boom down a load of aces but when he does that it is a bonus, not the norm. The consistency of his fairly heavy groundies from the back is what took him to the top 10 this year.

Sounds like he is more consistent and that's the reason he rises up in the ranking since Indian Wells early in the season. I guess he improves in his shot making too then.