is Duckboy the third William sister? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

is Duckboy the third William sister?

tennischick
07-05-2004, 10:00 AM
he seems to think that the solution to every challenge on court is always to generate more power and to hit even harder. :devil:

i am surprised that Brad the trickster has not taught him that this is not always the way to go.

makes me wonder is Brad an effective coach or simply an excellent scout? :wavey:

CarnivalCarnage
07-05-2004, 10:11 AM
Hey, Brad was four in the world once. It wasn't due to sheer talent alone. ;)

He must know something.

Marc Rosset is Tall
07-05-2004, 10:29 AM
Hey, Brad was four in the world once. It wasn't due to sheer talent alone. ;)

He must know something.

Too bad he hardly had any good results in the Slams and played virtually the overwhelming majority of his events in North America.

He has only taken on players when they were established, not when they are beginning their careers for example like Peter Lundgren did with Marcelo Rios and Roger Federer.

Too bad Roddick couldn't win ugly like his mentor used to on Sunday.

CarnivalCarnage
07-05-2004, 10:32 AM
Too bad he hardly had any good results in the Slams and played virtually the overwhelming majority of his events in North America.

He has only taken on players when they were established, not when they are beginning their careers for example like Peter Lundgren did with Marcelo Rios and Roger Federer.

Too bad Roddick couldn't win ugly like his mentor used to on Sunday.

Thanks for writing that. Clearly, I was touting Brad as the best player ever. Way to set me straight.

Marc Rosset is Tall
07-05-2004, 10:44 AM
Thanks for writing that. Clearly, I was touting Brad as the best player ever. Way to set me straight.

That's fine, there is no crime in being a Gilbert fan.

CarnivalCarnage
07-05-2004, 11:46 AM
Ok. I was being sarcastic and I can't tell if you were returning the favour there or not.

But you misunderstood what I was originally saying. I'm NOT a Gilbert fan. I said that he reached #4 in the world to illustrate a point. He clearly did it without vast resources of natural talent, now didn't he? So he must have some knowledge to impart about the game.

tennischick
07-06-2004, 10:32 AM
Hey, Brad was four in the world once. It wasn't due to sheer talent alone. ;)

He must know something.
yes he must. what he knows how to do is scout players and figure out their particular weaknesses and help his guy exploit that. he calls it "winning ugly" and it is. for example, it's no accident that Duckboy was able to beat Agassi shortly after he picked up with Brad. nobody knew Agassi's game as well as Brad -- and his weaknesses too. that's probably why Andre was so pissed that day -- he probably felt sold out. but he should have known that Brad's particular gift is the ability to win ugly.

but this is not the same as being a good coach. it defines a terrific scout who can pick up on the weaknesses in an opponent. what happens when the opponent has no visible weakness? when, in addition to that, as Marat said, he also has a backhand? in this case he opponent just went out and wildly threw everything at him including the kitchen sink, just hoping desperately for the best.

RonE
07-06-2004, 10:39 AM
You guys forget that as good a coach as Gilbert is, a lot also depends on the player going out and executing (to steal a phrase from Andre).

Also, Brad is not the one who invented scouting- there are a lot of other coaches who do the same and try to manufacture a game plan so that their protegees can beat their opponents while capitalizing on their weaknesses. Hate the game, don't hate the player.

Lalitha
07-06-2004, 10:55 AM
Actually I read that Brad was complaining that Andy did'nt get to play in Centre Court after his opening round match. He was scheduled to play his semis in Centre court but rain delay moved it to Court no.1

Gilbert said - "Andy is not complaining, but I'm annoyed."

CarnivalCarnage
07-06-2004, 11:02 AM
yes he must. what he knows how to do is scout players and figure out their particular weaknesses and help his guy exploit that. he calls it "winning ugly" and it is. for example, it's no accident that Duckboy was able to beat Agassi shortly after he picked up with Brad. nobody knew Agassi's game as well as Brad -- and his weaknesses too. that's probably why Andre was so pissed that day -- he probably felt sold out. but he should have known that Brad's particular gift is the ability to win ugly.

but this is not the same as being a good coach. it defines a terrific scout who can pick up on the weaknesses in an opponent. what happens when the opponent has no visible weakness? when, in addition to that, as Marat said, he also has a backhand? in this case he opponent just went out and wildly threw everything at him including the kitchen sink, just hoping desperately for the best.

I don't think you give him enough credit. But I could be wrong. But I'm not the one pretending to know anything about the particulars of Gilbert's coaching repertoire. You don't know enough to say he's just a "scout".

tennischick
07-06-2004, 12:02 PM
i know enuf to say that he is an excellent scout. that's what his book is all about -- scouting your opponent to find his flaws and exploiting them.

a good coach helps his guy repair weaknesses in his own game -- like not relying only on his monster serve, like having a plan for what to do when the serve is returned (and not expecting to score aces all the time), like developing a reliable backhand, like volleying over the net (and not into it). stuff like that.

Action Jackson
07-06-2004, 12:18 PM
I know the "winning ugly" book you mean, very interesting read and breakdowns on players like Connors, Becker, Lendl and how he relied on grinding them down and mental stratagies like taking more time bewtween serves to break opponents momentum.

I wouldn't take the Lendl section very seriously because Gilbert had the wonderful record of 16-0 against Ivan Lendl, so whatever strategy he had against him it didn't work.


Roddick said he owed his 5 set comeback v Nalbandian and winning the tournie to Brads influence and giving him mental strengths which I dont doubt for a minute

Or generous scheduling and crowd calls in a vital tiebreaker, which was a momentum shift, but Roddick took advantage of the situation, unlike on last Sunday.

heya
07-06-2004, 01:01 PM
Gilbert was Agassi's coach and you can't really criticize Gilbert too much. :scared:

At least, David wasn't too injured and exhausted at Roland Garros. It'd be sad if he had been bagelled at U.S. Open. Look on the bright side. He did beat Agassi and Federer. Don't worry, he'll win a title soon.

pinky
07-06-2004, 01:02 PM
Actually I read that Brad was complaining that Andy did'nt get to play in Centre Court after his opening round match. He was scheduled to play his semis in Centre court but rain delay moved it to Court no.1

Gilbert said - "Andy is not complaining, but I'm annoyed."

Really strange that he wasn't complaining at last year's USO, when Federer was waiting to play his matches for the whole day during rain and then when it finally stops, they tell him to get back to the hotel because it is now night session so Roddick has to play ;)

I know it is "normal" to arange a good schedule for the champion/home players but that was definitely worse that putting Roddick on court no 1 :)

And imagine what Brad would have said if they maintained Roddick's semi after Roger's one, on the same court... "Andy is tired, he got one less day to rest, bla bla..."

vene
07-06-2004, 01:12 PM
From the NYT about Gilbert:

"However canny Federer was, even Phil Jackson might admit that you can't teach talent. Though he played far more baseline tennis here this year than last and got away with it until yesterday, Federer had the serve-and-volley skills to resort to. Roddick was married to his prematch plan to (and we're paraphrasing Roddick here) hit the stuffing out of the ball. For such a strategy he needed Coach Gilbert?

Andre Agassi recast himself with Gilbert but seldom solved Pete Sampras in a big-money match. Roddick, now 1-6 for his career against Federer, admitted that Federer "has an aura about him." To beat him - on grass, at least - Roddick needs work on his volleys, or a better game plan.

What might that be? Coach Gilbert, the author of a soon-to-be-released second book, the subject of a recent magazine profile, a man who by reputation would talk to a racket if it had ears, strode silently past hopeful reporters into a waiting car."

WyveN
07-06-2004, 01:29 PM
A coach's primary job is to scout players and be a practice partner for their player.
I cant stand Gilbert but he seems like a good coach. Part of the reason Roddick made the match close is because of the tactics Gilbert and himself came up with.
If he had come out against Roger playing the way he did against Ancic he would have been straight setted.

Skyward
07-06-2004, 01:46 PM
Gilbert is a good coach for an established player. But can he install the foundation? Has he ever taken a newcomer on tour and brought him into top20-30?

WyveN
07-06-2004, 01:59 PM
Gilbert is a good coach for an established player. But can he install the foundation? Has he ever took a newcomer on tour and brought him into top20-30?

Well he semi did it with Roddick but your correct, I doubt Gilbert will be able to take a raw talent and turn them into something special but it seems he can get the most out of established players, and a lot of coaches cant even do that.

Action Jackson
07-06-2004, 02:01 PM
Gilbert is a good coach for an established player. But can he install the foundation? Has he ever took a newcomer on tour and brought him into top20-30?

Did you miss this post?

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=627707&postcount=3

Skyward
07-06-2004, 02:08 PM
Did you miss this post?

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=627707&postcount=3

I guess he never did. I'm not totally familiar with his resume. Btw, is he coaching Golovin full time?

CarnivalCarnage
07-06-2004, 02:58 PM
i know enuf to say that he is an excellent scout. that's what his book is all about -- scouting your opponent to find his flaws and exploiting them.

a good coach helps his guy repair weaknesses in his own game -- like not relying only on his monster serve, like having a plan for what to do when the serve is returned (and not expecting to score aces all the time), like developing a reliable backhand, like volleying over the net (and not into it). stuff like that.

Tennischick, the monster flaw in your theory is that if you admit he's a good scout of other people, he can surely do the same with his own player. And if he can do that, then he is working with his players at their weaknesses.

crimson
07-06-2004, 03:47 PM
Am I right in thinking that the partnership of Brad Gilbert and Andre Agassi ended on a bit of a bad note? I remember Andre being asked to comment after Andy Roddick started working with Gilbert last year, and Andre replied with something along the lines of, "Andy will get plenty of advice but I can't guarantee how useful much of it will be", which suggested to me that things had ended acrimoniously between Agassi and Gilbert. Can anyone confirm if this was the case, and if so what were the reasons for it?

Action Jackson
07-06-2004, 03:53 PM
Steffi Graf couldn't handle Brad Gilbert.

crimson
07-06-2004, 03:57 PM
Steffi Graf couldn't handle Brad Gilbert.

Ah, that would explain it then. I did notice at the past Wimbledons since she retired, she never sat next to Gilbert in the player's box when Agassi was playing, but sat elsewhere in the stands instead.

Pea
07-06-2004, 04:52 PM
What else do yoy expect from American players?:o

papasmurf11
07-06-2004, 04:55 PM
What else do yoy expect from American players?:o
Dont stereotype players from a certain country! In every country there is different types of peoples.

Havok
07-06-2004, 04:59 PM
THis has got to be one of the dumbest theads I've seen. Andy hitting harder when he was in a hole was the old Andy, take a look at him now and that isn't the case. When he's losing, he'll try to put more balls inside the court and wait more for his shots (vs Malisse at MOntreal last year). don't base it on his finals vs Federer, blasting the shit out of the ball (but smartly, not like Safin did in the AO finals) and taking it to Federer is one of two ways to beat him (the other is to rush the net, which he also did!) if you can't realise this then uh..... :retard: and again people just can't get enough of Andy can they :bolt:

Experimentee
07-06-2004, 05:00 PM
I think it was a good tactic. It was what got him into a winning position in the first place, so he should have continued to play like that. The only way he was ever going to beat Roger was to overpower him.

Pea
07-06-2004, 05:03 PM
Dont stereotype players from a certain country! In every country there is different types of peoples.

:confused: What other types of players are there in America? At this present state?:rolleyes:

Havok
07-06-2004, 05:05 PM
Yes I know it was a good tactic, and like I said, one of the two ways to beat Federer. Nobody has Federer's all around game and aray of shots to match him and beat him at his own game. But TC makes it seem like no matter what, Andy would choose to blast the crap out of the ball when he's in the losing position, which isn't entirely true. His gameplan going in was to take it to Federer throughout, so why would he back down from a gameplan?

Havok
07-06-2004, 05:07 PM
uh.... Pea there's Fish and Dent and MArtin who come to the net loads, they aren't bashers. and if you wanna stereotype all the americans as baselinebashers, then have a go at the russians as well (moreso the females atm)

Action Jackson
07-06-2004, 05:10 PM
Dent is a serve/volleyer who doesn't have another tactic to change to, when it's not going well.

Fish and Ginepri are tactically inept and Todd Martin he does play with his brains a bit at least, though he will be retired very soon.

Havok
07-06-2004, 05:23 PM
serve and volleying ISNT baseline bashing so I dont get your point of saying what you said :scratch: Fish comes to net also, so he isnt 100% bashing the ball. And I don't care if Todd is retiring, he's still around so I used him!

Marc Rosset is Tall
07-06-2004, 05:26 PM
So is it ok to stereotype Argentine and Spanish players then as just grinding claycourters.

Naldo, if you want to use Russian women as an example wouldn't Myskina be an exception that that.

Fish and Dent when they are at the baseline, just bash without much thought as to where their shots are going, even though they move forward more than Roddick for example.

Havok
07-06-2004, 05:32 PM
there are always exceptions, but i think Myskina is probably the only exception you can find. and being a baseline basher means you're ALWAYS at the baseline, and like I said Fish and Dent come to net A LOT (at least Dent, but im pretty sure Fish comes to net a whole lot as well)

Iza
07-06-2004, 05:41 PM
the name of thisthread is sooo funny :rolls: !!! I don't think he is the 3rd Williams sister because is 10000 more entertaining to watch. On Sunday I saw the Andy I used to like: the funny guy that is similar to Marat not the humorless serving robot he became since he started working with Gilbert. Go Andy this way! I had a laugh watching the final, something I didn't do while watching Mr. Duck for ages. I might be wrong cos I haven't watched his matches since USO 2003. Whenever it was him on TV, I switched the channel.


OMFG I can't believe I'm becoming an Andy watcher again :unsure: :eek:

:lol:

spikeys_girl
07-06-2004, 05:52 PM
Hey, Brad was four in the world once. It wasn't due to sheer talent alone. ;)

He must know something.

he sure does. made andy #2 in the world.

J. Corwin
07-06-2004, 07:18 PM
a good coach helps his guy repair weaknesses in his own game -- like not relying only on his monster serve, like having a plan for what to do when the serve is returned (and not expecting to score aces all the time), like developing a reliable backhand, like volleying over the net (and not into it). stuff like that.

Where have you been? Andy has been repairing his weaknesses already. He's been working on his backhands and volleys and clearly they have improved. He's never going to have excellent volleys or a exceptional backhand. But, they are now better and he's continuing to work on his weaknesses.

And he did have a plan. The plan was to take it to Roger. And clearly that was working...or else he would have lost in straight sets. Andy doesn't have the talent of Roger, so what other plan did you expect Andy to come out with? He was using what he has, which is power and trying to take the initiative away from Roger.

tennischick
07-06-2004, 09:55 PM
Where have you been? Andy has been repairing his weaknesses already. He's been working on his backhands and volleys and clearly they have improved. He's never going to have excellent volleys or a exceptional backhand. But, they are now better and he's continuing to work on his weaknesses.

And he did have a plan. The plan was to take it to Roger. And clearly that was working...or else he would have lost in straight sets. Andy doesn't have the talent of Roger, so what other plan did you expect Andy to come out with? He was using what he has, which is power and trying to take the initiative away from Roger.
we both know that i'm no Duckfan but i am actually criticising Brad more than i am criticising him. i think that the improvements you mention are rather mild. and i still found that he dumped way too many powerful fore and backhands straight into the net. a player with Duckboy's power hooked up with a better coach would have spanked Federer on Sunday. the solution was NOT to keep blasting away a la Williams.

heya
07-06-2004, 11:42 PM
Gilbert is incredibly ignorant because he encourages the smack-the-hell-out-of-the-ball style. He loved "The Kid" to gain more muscle weight and hit 160 mph. Roddick has never served harder and made more careless errors before 2003.
When Roddick lost a lot, Gilbert went on ESPN to give excuses like "he needs to rest because the hotel fire bothered him" or "he can recover after the short term memory loss" or "he doesn't need to play in Europe."
Arrogant Gilbert loves all the congratulations for his wonderful coaching. Yet, he's clueless when it comes to teaching mandatory tactics like slowing down the pace, hitting angles, volleying a lot and making dropshots, especially on clay. Don't mention
patience and focus.

Havok
07-07-2004, 12:04 AM
we both know that i'm no Duckfan but i am actually criticising Brad more than i am criticising him. i think that the improvements you mention are rather mild. and i still found that he dumped way too many powerful fore and backhands straight into the net. a player with Duckboy's power hooked up with a better coach would have spanked Federer on Sunday. the solution was NOT to keep blasting away a la Williams.
so you think turning a crap backhand into a pretty solid weapon is mild? or him being able to crack return winners more consistently and being able to actually volley is just mild improvements? :scratch: not that they're outstanding improvements, but I wouldn't call them 'mild.'

J. Corwin
07-07-2004, 12:10 AM
I wouldn't call them mild either but that's subjective. I think the improvement is especially apparent in his backhand. I think his backhand was the steadier shot in the finals, while he lived and died with forehand.

Pea
07-07-2004, 01:09 AM
uh.... Pea there's Fish and Dent and MArtin who come to the net loads, they aren't bashers. and if you wanna stereotype all the americans as baselinebashers, then have a go at the russians as well (moreso the females atm)

As talented as Mardy is, he tends to rely on his power moreso. Robby, pure power. Todd will be retired soon. Dent is a hit or miss type of player.

And why should I talk about the Russian women? :confused: This is a mens forum.

Havok
07-07-2004, 01:30 AM
it still applies to the men, but it applies a lot more to the women.

Havok
07-07-2004, 01:31 AM
and again it doesnt matter if Todd is retiring, he's still an active player. and a serve and volleyer is a hit or miss type player? ok his serve maybe, but thats it

tennischick
07-07-2004, 01:38 AM
Gilbert is incredibly ignorant because he encourages the smack-the-hell-out-of-the-ball style. He loved "The Kid" to gain more muscle weight and hit 160 mph. Roddick has never served harder and made more careless errors before 2003.
When Roddick lost a lot, Gilbert went on ESPN to give excuses like "he needs to rest because the hotel fire bothered him" or "he can recover after the short term memory loss" or "he doesn't need to play in Europe."
Arrogant Gilbert loves all the congratulations for his wonderful coaching. Yet, he's clueless when it comes to teaching mandatory tactics like slowing down the pace, hitting angles, volleying a lot and making dropshots, especially on clay. Don't mention patience and focus.
OK i wouldn't call Brad ignorant bec i don't think he's totally clueless. but he does seem to be encouraging the (as you say) "smack-the-hell-out-of-the-ball style". that is precisely what i am criticising, hence the title of this thread. i agree with many of your suggestions for the improvement of Duckboy's game but i don't think it's going to happen. he's gonna keep going for more and more power until he becomes irretrievably injured. not wishing it on him, mind you, just predicting a Williams fate.

all of which is making me wonder two things:

>whether Brad may actually be a better scout than he is a coach, and...

>how soon will beads start falling out of Duckboy's hair :confused:

Havok
07-07-2004, 01:54 AM
Brad isn't one to change someone's techniques (not many coaches to that anyways). but there is a difference in Andy's backhand technique. Brad is more of an "x and o" type person, something he's always admited, so it isn't any surprise. and he's getting andy to come to net more and play smart tennis (that isnt the Williams' way;))

Pea
07-07-2004, 08:02 AM
and again it doesnt matter if Todd is retiring, he's still an active player. and a serve and volleyer is a hit or miss type player? ok his serve maybe, but thats it

I didn't say any serve and volleyer. I said Dent is. He doesn't have the best technique nor the softest hands.

Lalitha
07-07-2004, 09:30 AM
OK i wouldn't call Brad ignorant bec i don't think he's totally clueless. but he does seem to be encouraging the (as you say) "smack-the-hell-out-of-the-ball style". that is precisely what i am criticising, hence the title of this thread. i agree with many of your suggestions for the improvement of Duckboy's game but i don't think it's going to happen. he's gonna keep going for more and more power until he becomes irretrievably injured. not wishing it on him, mind you, just predicting a Williams fate.




Power, Power and more Power is not going to take Andy anywhere. Ofcourse, he's got that backhand which was'nt to be seen a year before, but I don't see why he should try and serve at 130's every time.


As GWH has mentioned earlier in this thread that Steffi could'nt stand Gilbert, is that the same way with Mandy? - anyone knows?

Iza
07-07-2004, 09:49 AM
in my opinion power leads to nowhere because it's a tactic that needs a lot of physical strength. Alright, Andy may be young and angry and strong now, but what about when he'll be 28 or older? He's going to be drained of power and will struggle with his tennis because his power is no longer the one that used to be. I hope he realizes that and changes Gilbert with someone else. (I can't stand Gilbert, he's a chauvinistic bastard) * I hope I spelled that right :p *

WyveN
07-07-2004, 03:55 PM
I think part of the reason Roger came back in the match was because Roddick was no longer smacking the crap out of the ball after the second rain break.
Whether that was due to Andy running out of steam, Roger altering his gamestyle or Roddick feeling he was in a position to win the match and "choking" I am not sure.
Only thing that matters at the end of the day is that Roger won.

alfonsojose
07-07-2004, 09:34 PM
like developing a reliable backhand, like volleying over the net (and not into it)

:haha: :haha: :tape:

RoddickBabe10
07-07-2004, 10:25 PM
What else do yoy expect from American players?:o

:scratch:

heya
07-08-2004, 12:06 AM
OK i wouldn't call Brad ignorant bec i don't think he's totally clueless. but he does seem to be encouraging the (as you say) "smack-the-hell-out-of-the-ball style". that is precisely what i am criticising, hence the title of this thread. i agree with many of your suggestions for the improvement of Duckboy's game but i don't think it's going to happen. he's gonna keep going for more and more power until he becomes irretrievably injured. not wishing it on him, mind you, just predicting a Williams fate.

all of which is making me wonder two things:

>whether Brad may actually be a better scout than he is a coach, and...

>how soon will beads start falling out of Duckboy's hair :confused:
Gilbert certainly can't give Roddick a strong mentality.
Gilbert is the same guy who got kicked out of his son's tennis match because he couldn't shut up in the stands.

"The Kid" didn't have consistent progress, but Gilbert was ok with off-court distractions and complacency.
Roddick's convinced that Gilbert put him on a higher playing level, but in the back of his mind, he knows that Gilbert isn't really contributing to his game. He'll do TV shows to promote tennis while his game disintegrates.

No one's teaching him about having discipline and a mature attitude.
He's behaving worse than when Tarik was his coach.
He couldn't keep his weight down in order to move fast on court. He's already gained and lost 12 pounds in a short time period. He can't control the racket without good fitness and correct coaching.

LDVTennis1
07-08-2004, 04:36 AM
I don't think the comparison is fair.

There is simply more variety to Roddick's game than that of the Williams' sisters. For one, Roddick is showing recently that he can hit a slice backhand. The Williams' sisters still haven't figured out that a slice forehand/backhand is not simply a long drop shot.

As for what happened in the match on Sunday, it came down to such a few key points that I don't really think one can fault Roddick's overall strategy. On those key points, Federer simply demonstrated why he is the most talented player in the game today. There was nothing in Roddick's strategy that could have neutralized that.

Same thing happened to Agassi at Indian Wells. He came out with the exact same strategy, minus the 130mph+ serve. He attacked Roger's backhand with a lot of pace. Agassi won the first set. Roger evened the match. They got to 4-4 in the third set. Agassi had game points to go up 5-4. But, thanks to one amazing get and amazing racquet control on that shot, Roger wins the next point and ultimately breaks Agassi. Roger goes on to serve out the match.

One of the aims of Roddick's strategy was in effect to keep Federer so off balance that Roger wouldn't have the time and place to create shots like the one he created against Agassi. But, if the Agassi match at Indian Wells showed anything it is that, even when that strategy seems to be working for the most part, Roger still finds a way to get his racquet head on the ball at the most disadvantageous times for his opponent. It's uncanny, it's magical, but it happens. Agassi had done everything right up to that point, and then in a single point it all turned around.

YoursTruly
07-08-2004, 04:58 AM
You guys forget that as good a coach as Gilbert is, a lot also depends on the player going out and executing (to steal a phrase from Andre).

Also, Brad is not the one who invented scouting- there are a lot of other coaches who do the same and try to manufacture a game plan so that their protegees can beat their opponents while capitalizing on their weaknesses. Hate the game, don't hate the player.

Exactly. Coaching plays a big part in a player's development and strategy, but in the end, everyone really has their own style and judgement in play. Brad is the coach of Andy, but Brad is Brad and Andy is Andy. Also, Andy hasn't had Brad as his coach for a long time, and only now when Andy is in his early 20s. Andy was probably always a "hit your way out of it" player in crunch times of matches ever since. But there is more variety and patience now in his game thanks to Brad.