Benneteau def. Tsonga 6-3 6-3 [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Benneteau def. Tsonga 6-3 6-3

SwiSha
03-31-2008, 07:44 PM
i was too quick declaring Davys match as the worst

Tsongas performance was beyond pathetic, Benneteau did nothing

osalsyst
03-31-2008, 07:44 PM
WTF Tsonga??? Julien must be playing well as of late with wins over Hewitt, Karlovic and now Tsonga. I think Roddick just breathed a sigh of relief.

Rogieva
03-31-2008, 07:44 PM
Too many errors.

Allegretto
03-31-2008, 07:45 PM
Tsonga was awful.

TMJordan
03-31-2008, 07:46 PM
What a joke, if Melzer had half a brain Tsonga would have been our already.

SwiSha
03-31-2008, 07:47 PM
is this the court ? 2 of the worst matches ive seen in a while

Horatio Caine
03-31-2008, 07:47 PM
Not a total surprise, but boooooooooooooooo Benny for spoiling the potential Tsonga/Roddick party. :ras: :p

vincayou
03-31-2008, 07:47 PM
Awful awful match, the wind on this court doesn't help as in the davydenko match. Benneteau did nothing, he just sent back balls in the middle of the court and watched Tsonga lose it against the wind and send the ball everywhere but in the limit... Awful.

I'm gutted. But the conditions are awful for the players who hit flat and take risk like Tsonga.

Labamba
03-31-2008, 07:48 PM
unbelievable Jo :(

nothing worked today

Alex999
03-31-2008, 07:48 PM
Tsonga was horrible. All that hype after AO, too bad he can't deliver.

SwiSha
03-31-2008, 07:49 PM
unbelievable Jo :(

nothing worked today

adjusting is not one of his strengths i believe

ryan23
03-31-2008, 07:49 PM
Would love to know how many ue from Tsonga, i know it was windy out there but some of his shots were dreadfull, horrible match

cc2monac
03-31-2008, 07:49 PM
Maybe it's all Tsonga's fault but still I'm happy for Julien! bravo!

SwiSha
03-31-2008, 07:50 PM
Would love to know how many ue from Tsonga, i know it was windy out there but some of his shots were dreadfull, horrible match

the wind did not make him play like a clueless clown

star
03-31-2008, 07:52 PM
I just hope Tsonga isn't the new Baghdatis.

He's also got a lot expectations that probably aren't realistic just yet. The kid needs some time to mature as a player.

ChinoRios4Ever
03-31-2008, 07:53 PM
The AO curse strikes again :rolls:

marat_roger
03-31-2008, 07:54 PM
Tsonga :sad: :sad:

but Julien's a very talented player when he's in form.Congrats :)

HoistDaColors
03-31-2008, 08:00 PM
Benneteau didn't do anything special...just more steady.

Herdwick
03-31-2008, 08:08 PM
Haha - Tsonga bombs again. But that was truly dreadful to watch. Hope the Tipsy match is better - it's already looking more promising.

Schu
03-31-2008, 08:08 PM
Only saw the last 3 games but sounds like the rest wasn't much better. SOmething like 20 winners to 36 UE for Tsonga. Maybe it was just Tsonga messing up but Benneteau has beaten some pretty good players the last few weeks - good job. He played smart - held his serve and just let Tsonga self destruct.

Forget has an interesting situation for Davis Cup. His #1 guy can't win a match, his #2 guy has the AO jinx and isn't far behind. But the bottom of the line up is hanging tough. Mathieu and Benny are looking good.

Herdwick
03-31-2008, 08:11 PM
Only saw the last 3 games but sounds like the rest wasn't much better. SOmething like 20 winners to 36 UE for Tsonga. Maybe it was just Tsonga messing up but Benneteau has beaten some pretty good players the last few weeks - good job. He played smart - held his serve and just let Tsonga self destruct.

Forget has an interesting situation for Davis Cup. His #1 guy can't win a match, his #2 guy has the AO jinx and isn't far behind. But the bottom of the line up is hanging tough. Mathieu and Benny are looking good.

Yep - DC should be interesting - think your boys'll do it pretty easily. Am beginning to despair of Gasquet certainly.

Bad Religion
03-31-2008, 08:11 PM
Worst Grand Slam finalist ever by demolition

Zero titles at 22 years old :haha: . What a fucking joke this Tsonga is

jcempire
03-31-2008, 08:13 PM
Good New for Andy Roddick

I still believe Andy got a great chance, two more Match away from Roger, This is just a great time to meet with him.

good luck Andy

Adler
03-31-2008, 08:14 PM
Tsonga is new Baghdatis for me in department of results, but plays slightly more entertaining game

FedFan_2007
03-31-2008, 08:16 PM
This is why Tsonga will never be top 5 material.

jetblackheart
03-31-2008, 08:16 PM
Another fluke AO finalist. :rolls:

Herdwick
03-31-2008, 08:16 PM
Tsonga is new Baghdatis for me in department of results, but plays slightly more entertaining game

Am sure you weren't one of those hailing him as the second coming in Melbourne...

sawan66278
03-31-2008, 08:20 PM
i was too quick declaring Davys match as the worst

Tsongas performance was beyond pathetic, Benneteau did nothing

What was worse was that he only looked like he cared when he was down a set and 2-4!!!!!:mad:

What is it with these French players?

I need an artist's sketch of the culprits because the fans watching got mugged.

DrJules
03-31-2008, 08:22 PM
Tsonga was horrible. All that hype after AO, too bad he can't deliver.

They did not play worse than Federer or Soderling.

FedFan_2007
03-31-2008, 08:27 PM
I was truly amazed by Ali's volleys in the Nadal semi. Even Roger hasn't shown he could do those. I guess it was a one-time brilliant match, never to be replicated.

Deivid23
03-31-2008, 08:27 PM
The smart player beat the brainless one.

Herdwick
03-31-2008, 08:31 PM
So we are to be denied Fed v Tsonga - shame. Would like to see that. Mind you, on the form of both this week perhaps a pleasure best deferred...

Schu
03-31-2008, 08:37 PM
Yep - DC should be interesting - think your boys'll do it pretty easily. Am beginning to despair of Gasquet certainly.

Actually I like most of the French players MUCH more than I like "my boys" in the US. Blake yes, but the rest of the U.S. Team - far from my favorites. And Gasquet - absolutely love the "overhyped, showpony headcase".

But back to Tsonga and Benny... Benneteau seems to be the Rodney Dangerfield of the French guys - he gets no respect. He doesn't have the flair that some do but seems to play pretty smart and is quite effective when in form.

Herdwick
03-31-2008, 08:50 PM
No offence intended. Simple statement of fact. Blake for some reason leaves me cold but am beginnimg to warm to Roddick slightly - never thought this would be possible. Have always loved watching the French, hence my slight irritation with Tsonga coming up and threatening to steal Gasquet's and Monfils' thunder! But the agony they (and the rest) have caused over the years...

Pixie
03-31-2008, 08:56 PM
But back to Tsonga and Benny... Benneteau seems to be the Rodney Dangerfield of the French guys - he gets no respect. He doesn't have the flair that some do but seems to play pretty smart and is quite effective when in form.

Good to see some don't only talk about Benneteau as a shitty player etc. on mtf. I don't like his game at all but he's a smart player. Most don't see it and generally talk about how pathetic his opponent was - which is sometimes true but is not enough to justify the number of seeds he's been able to defeat in his career. He'll continue to get some serious beatdown but it's part of his game.

jonny84
03-31-2008, 09:25 PM
:eek:

Another upset at Miami. Did not expect this result.

adee-gee
03-31-2008, 09:45 PM
Tsonga is battling it out with Gasquet to be the most overrated guy out there at the moment :lol:

Where's KaxMisha?

partygirl
03-31-2008, 09:53 PM
Awesome.

MIMIC
03-31-2008, 09:54 PM
Another fluke AO finalist. :rolls:

Is the "other" fluke supposed to be the guy with 2 '08 titles already? :)

morningglory
03-31-2008, 09:56 PM
AO presents yet another flash-in-the-pan finalist...

Sjengster
03-31-2008, 09:59 PM
Is the "other" fluke supposed to be the guy with 2 '08 titles already? :)

I think perhaps runner-up should be inserted into that sentence, in place of finalist. ;)

KaxMisha
03-31-2008, 10:00 PM
Tsonga is battling it out with Gasquet to be the most overrated guy out there at the moment :lol:

Where's KaxMisha?

Right here. I assume this is about what I said about Tsonga and Nadal, right? I still stand by it. It's fact and losses like this don't change it. Tsonga is much more volatile than Nadal (on any surface) and I never denied that. Still, it is silly to deny that if both are having a good day, Tsonga will win much more often than not on hard. That was the question posed in the thread to which I responded, so this does not change anything at all. Sorry, but you have no point.

tennizen
03-31-2008, 10:00 PM
Tsonga is battling it out with Gasquet to be the most overrated guy out there at the moment :lol:

Where's KaxMisha?

Well don't you know he has a solid logical argument which is "If Nadal and Tsonga are playing their best.......":lol:;)

:woohoo: I understand KaxMisha so well. I posted my post exactly at the same time as he did.

KaxMisha
03-31-2008, 10:01 PM
Well don't you know he has a solid logical argument which is "If Nadal and Tsonga are playing their best.......":lol:;)

1. That's not what I said.
2. You have, thus far, provided no argument at all, so either present one or shut the fuck up. :wavey:

tennizen
03-31-2008, 10:02 PM
Right here. I assume this is about what I said about Tsonga and Nadal, right? I still stand by it. It's fact and losses like this don't change it. Tsonga is much more volatile than Nadal (on any surface) and I never denied that. Still, it is silly to deny that if both are having a good day, Tsonga will win much more often than not on hard. That was the question posed in the thread to which I responded, so this does not change anything at all. Sorry, but you have no point.

If you go back to that thread hra87 raised some very interesting questions reg. what playing at their best means. I wonder why you never responded. Maybe I will bump it up for you:shrug:

KaxMisha
03-31-2008, 10:03 PM
:woohoo: I understand KaxMisha so well. I posted my post exactly at the same time as he did.

Funny how you did not understand that "have a good day" and "play their best" are not one and the same.

tennizen
03-31-2008, 10:07 PM
Funny how you did not understand that "have a good day" and "play their best" are not one and the same.

:lol: The title of the thread at that time was "Both playing their best tennis":hug:. You don't like Nadal. Admitting that will make you a happier person:wavey:

stebs
03-31-2008, 10:17 PM
:lol: The title of the thread at that time was "Both playing their best tennis":hug:. You don't like Nadal. Admitting that will make you a happier person:wavey:

:shrug: Tsonga is a big hitter. He has already proved more than capable of destroying excellent players when on top form. Why do you think it is stupid to say Tsonga at his best isn't beating Nadal? On the whole, a capable attacking player with a good serve will always be favourite to beat a capable defensive player if both play very well, the opposite being true if the players aren't playing so good. Obviously it is closer because Nadal is a better player than Tsonga but it is no sign of dislike to hold an opinion is it?

KaxMisha
03-31-2008, 10:39 PM
:lol: The title of the thread at that time was "Both playing their best tennis":hug:. You don't like Nadal. Admitting that will make you a happier person:wavey:

HUH? What the fuck? No, I don't like Nadal. I've never denied it. In fact, I've always been perfectly clear on that. Suggesting that it makes my analysis less accurate, however, is bullshit.

KaxMisha
03-31-2008, 10:45 PM
:lol: The title of the thread at that time was "Both playing their best tennis":hug:. You don't like Nadal. Admitting that will make you a happier person:wavey:

And as for the other part (sorry that I'm making this a new post, by the way), I know what the title of the thread was, but that was brought up during the course of that thread and I said that it could just as well be replaced with "both players having a good day". Are you acting intentionally dense or what? :confused:

To elaborate further and make this more formal from an analytical point of view, think of a player's expected level of play as μ and at the standard deviation in level of play as σ. What I am saying is that Tsonga's μ on hard court is higher than Nadal's. Of course, Tsonga's σ is also much higher, so he will have worse losses. These losses (like this one, for example), however, still do not change the fact that Tsonga's μ is higher. It's like saying that bonds have a higher μ than stocks just because they have outperformed them for a rather long period of time. It's inaccurate, because this is a result of stocks being more volatile (higher σ), not of bonds providing a higher expected return. If we cancel out the volatility component (σ), Tsonga will beat Nadal on gard court more often than not. This is effectively what I was arguing. Again, I ask, do you disagree with this? If so, please provide an argument that refutes mine.

leng jai
03-31-2008, 10:47 PM
AO curse strikes again.

Machiavelli
03-31-2008, 10:50 PM
Total crap from the Ali, JUlien just had to put ball in play, awful to watch, no-brain tennis by Tsonga...

vincayou
03-31-2008, 10:51 PM
In these windy conditions, all the flat hitters/go-for-broke/big serve players can see their game deteriorated. I wasn't confident from the start, especially after the Davydenko match. Not really a surprise in fact. These extreme conditions don't suit his game.

Merton
03-31-2008, 11:06 PM
Bad match, there is no doubt that the windy conditions played a big part in that. Benneteau adjusted better and won comfortably. Tsonga will be fine, he just needs to work (a lot) on his footwork and stay healthy.

tennizen
03-31-2008, 11:16 PM
:shrug: Tsonga is a big hitter. He has already proved more than capable of destroying excellent players when on top form. Why do you think it is stupid to say Tsonga at his best isn't beating Nadal? On the whole, a capable attacking player with a good serve will always be favourite to beat a capable defensive player if both play very well, the opposite being true if the players aren't playing so good. Obviously it is closer because Nadal is a better player than Tsonga but it is no sign of dislike to hold an opinion is it?

This is the extension of a previous argument and has more to do with my knowledge of KaxMisha than what he has to say in this particular thread. For example he likes to badrep any Nadal fan who disagrees with him usually using:retard: smiley.

KaxMisha
03-31-2008, 11:18 PM
This is the extension of a previous argument and has more to do with my knowledge of KaxMisha than what he has to say in this particular thread. For example he likes to badrep any Nadal fan who disagrees with him usually using:retard: smiley.

Oh yeah, so the fact that I like to bad rep people who offer no argument whatsoever but just disagree (i.e. fanboys) makes me wrong? Got it. Your argument is rock solid. :retard: (This :retard: smiley was just for you, by the way) Now as for the issue at hand - do you surrender or do you actually have something to say?

tennizen
03-31-2008, 11:33 PM
And as for the other part (sorry that I'm making this a new post, by the way), I know what the title of the thread was, but that was brought up during the course of that thread and I said that it could just as well be replaced with "both players having a good day". Are you acting intentionally dense or what? :confused:

To elaborate further and make this more formal from an analytical point of view, think of a player's expected level of play as μ and at the standard deviation in level of play as σ. What I am saying is that Tsonga's μ on hard court is higher than Nadal's. Of course, Tsonga's σ is also much higher, so he will have worse losses. These losses (like this one, for example), however, still do not change the fact that Tsonga's μ is higher. It's like saying that bonds have a higher μ than stocks just because they have outperformed them for a rather long period of time. It's inaccurate, because this is a result of stocks being more volatile (higher σ), not of bonds providing a higher expected return. If we cancel out the volatility component (σ), Tsonga will beat Nadal on gard court more often than not. This is effectively what I was arguing. Again, I ask, do you disagree with this? If so, please provide an argument that refutes mine.

Thanks for typing that all out but I am not interested in having an endless argument with you. Primarily because I think you are trying to quantify what is essentially unquantifiable.

elessar
03-31-2008, 11:39 PM
Tsonga is battling it out with Gasquet to be the most overrated guy out there at the moment :lol:

Where's KaxMisha?
Pfff are you kidding Richard wins hands down, Tsonga made it to a GS final on his 5th ever GS, not that many players can say that.

KaxMisha
03-31-2008, 11:44 PM
Thanks for typing that all out but I am not interested in having an endless argument with you. Primarily because I think you are trying to quantify what is essentially unquantifiable.

Yet you voted Nadal in the poll attached to the other thread, so obviously you were prepared to quantify it too. Come on, let's hear your argument for voting for Nadal!

tennizen
03-31-2008, 11:49 PM
Yet you voted Nadal in the poll attached to the other thread, so obviously you were prepared to quantify it too. Come on, let's hear your argument for voting for Nadal!

I voted that way because you had previously stated that anyone who votes for Nadal in this thread is stupid or something of that sort. So I voted and awaited your bad rep which you duly gave:)

And this is my last post on the matter: Tsonga is an unproven player. So you don't have enough data to determine his mean on hard courts much less to actually compare with Nadal even if you wanted to quantify it in some way which would still not be very useful.

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 12:05 AM
I voted that way because you had previously stated that anyone who votes for Nadal in this thread is stupid or something of that sort. So I voted and awaited your bad rep which you duly gave:)

And this is my last post on the matter: Tsonga is an unproven player. So you don't have enough data to determine his mean on hard courts much less to actually compare with Nadal even if you wanted to quantify it in some way which would still not be very useful.

The point of the mean-standard deviation thing was to illustrate what I was trying to say. Actually computing a value for it would be very hard (if not impossible), but that's not the point. The point is simply that if both Nadal and Tsonga have a good hard court day, Tsonga will win most of the time. As for the rep thing - what did you expect? You did the exact shit fanboy thing I hate - just disagree without offering anything substantial (or anything AT ALL, really) as a reason. You might not think that that deserves a bad rep and that's okay, but it still does not make me wrong on the actual issue, so...

milkidy
04-01-2008, 12:28 AM
I just hope Tsonga isn't the new Baghdatis.

He's also got a lot expectations that probably aren't realistic just yet. The kid needs some time to mature as a player.


that's exactlly what i am worry about

tennizen
04-01-2008, 12:45 AM
The point of the mean-standard deviation thing was to illustrate what I was trying to say. Actually computing a value for it would be very hard (if not impossible), but that's not the point. The point is simply that if both Nadal and Tsonga have a good hard court day, Tsonga will win most of the time. As for the rep thing - what did you expect? You did the exact shit fanboy thing I hate - just disagree without offering anything substantial (or anything AT ALL, really) as a reason. You might not think that that deserves a bad rep and that's okay, but it still does not make me wrong on the actual issue, so...

Which we have no way of knowing or proving. It's like saying in the battle of good vs evil good eventually triumphs in the long run.

And reg the rep, you first made a provocative statement in the other thread without explaining your reasons for it. That was hilarious in itself and didn't merit any serious response.

l_mac
04-01-2008, 12:48 AM
Why do you continue arguing with KaxMisha when you know he's wrong, he knows he's wrong and we all know he'll never admit it?

TMJordan
04-01-2008, 12:51 AM
Why do you continue arguing with KaxMisha when you know he's wrong, he knows he's wrong and we all know he'll never admit it?

He is right. I don't know if Tsonga will ever play that good again but him playing like he did at the AO that night Nadal could have had his gay friend/doubles partner Lalo on court with him and Tsonga would have still streamrolled them.

tennizen
04-01-2008, 12:51 AM
Why do you continue arguing with KaxMisha when you know he's wrong, he knows he's wrong and we all know he'll never admit it?

I love being told that I am not logical. That's why:lol:

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 12:52 AM
Why do you continue arguing with KaxMisha when you know he's wrong, he knows he's wrong and we all know he'll never admit it?

Provide a coherent logical argument as to why I'm wrong and I'll gladly admit it. Otherwise, just shut the fuck up. Seriously, just saying I'm wrong will not make it true.

l_mac
04-01-2008, 12:53 AM
He is right. I don't know if Tsonga will ever play that good again but him playing like he did at the AO that night Nadal could have had his gay friend/doubles partner Lalo on court with him and Tsonga would have still streamrolled them.

:hug:

But we agreed Rafa wasn't at his best that night, so it doesn't answer the question :shrug: Anyway, you should bump the other thread if you want to rehash this.

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 12:54 AM
He is right. I don't know if Tsonga will ever play that good again but him playing like he did at the AO that night Nadal could have had his gay friend/doubles partner Lalo on court with him and Tsonga would have still streamrolled them.

Oh, someone actually THINKING rather than fanboying. Refreshing!

l_mac
04-01-2008, 12:54 AM
Provide a coherent logical argument as to why I'm wrong and I'll gladly admit it. Otherwise, just shut the fuck up. Seriously, just saying I'm wrong will not make it true.

you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong

Hope that helps :hug:

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 12:55 AM
:hug:

But we agreed Rafa wasn't at his best that night, so it doesn't answer the question :shrug: Anyway, you should bump the other thread if you want to rehash this.

That's completely irrelevant. Did you even read what he wrote? His point was that no matter how Nadal would have played, Australian Open Tsonga still would have won. Correct me if I'm wrong TMJordan.

l_mac
04-01-2008, 12:56 AM
That's completely irrelevant. Did you even read what he wrote? His point was that no matter how Nadal would have played, Australian Open Tsonga still would have won. Correct me if I'm wrong TMJordan.

Oh, right.

I don't believe that :wavey:

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 12:56 AM
you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong

Hope that helps :hug:

You're a fangirl who has never demonstrated any tennis knowledge whatsoever. Hope this helps. :retard:

elessar
04-01-2008, 12:56 AM
That's completely irrelevant. Did you even read what he wrote? His point was that no matter how Nadal would have played, Australian Open Tsonga still would have won. Correct me if I'm wrong TMJordan.

Why are you even arguing with them when they're clearly trolling :shrug:
No one could believe anything other than that Tsonga would steamroll him

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 12:56 AM
Oh, right.

I don't believe that :wavey:

Because?

adee-gee
04-01-2008, 12:58 AM
Kax, you seem to have some anger issues when it comes to Nadal and fangirls....

Is there something you want to tell us? :awww:

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 12:58 AM
Why are you even arguing with them when they're clearly trolling :shrug:
No one could believe anything other than that Tsonga would steamroll him

That's a very good question. I'm afraid I don't have a very good answer. I suppose I just want to draw some kind of actual ARGUMENT out of them so that I might at least understand how they're thinking (if at all, which, frankly, I begin to doubt).

TMJordan
04-01-2008, 12:59 AM
Yeah when Tsonga serves that well and hits those deep powerful shots off both wings along with how well he moved at the AO there is really nothing Nadal can do regardless of how good he plays on HC.

Quite simple, isn't it?

tennizen
04-01-2008, 12:59 AM
That's a very good question. I'm afraid I don't have a very good answer. I suppose I just want to draw some kind of actual ARGUMENT out of them so that I might at least understand how they're thinking (if at all, which, frankly, I begin to doubt).

You cannot prove your statement:shrug:

elessar
04-01-2008, 01:00 AM
That's a very good question. I'm afraid I don't have a very good answer. I suppose I just want to draw some kind of actual ARGUMENT out of them so that I might at least understand how they're thinking (if at all, which, frankly, I begin to doubt).
They're not thinking have you seen her sig, has there ever been anything more pathetic :retard:

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 01:01 AM
Kax, you seem to have some anger issues when it comes to Nadal and fangirls....

Is there something you want to tell us? :awww:

My issue with regard to all fanboys (or fangirls - why would you drag gender into this? :confused:) is that they just state their PS "opinion" without anything to back it up whatsoever and think that's a legitimate way of presenting an argument. Whether it's Nadal fanboys who think that he has a higher top level (and let's not discuss again what that means - it's been covered already) than Tsonga on hard court or Roddick fangirls who say that he has the best forehand in the world makes no difference to me. As I have already said all this on numerous occasions - no, there's nothing more I want to tell you. What are you implying?

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 01:03 AM
You cannot prove your statement:shrug:

That's more to do with the inherent intangibility of the question than with the argument at hand though. I certainly can back it up much, much better than you can back up yours.

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 01:04 AM
They're not thinking have you seen her sig, has there ever been anything more pathetic :retard:

Hahahah! I'm loving your sig, though! :yeah:

adee-gee
04-01-2008, 01:05 AM
My issue with regard to all fanboys (or fangirls - why would you drag gender into this? :confused:) is that they just state their PS "opinion" without anything to back it up whatsoever and think that's a legitimate way of presenting an argument. Whether it's Nadal fanboys who think that he has a higher top level (and let's not discuss again what that means - it's been covered already) than Tsonga on hard court or Roddick fangirls who say that he has the best forehand in the world makes no difference to me. As I have already said all this on numerous occasions - no, there's nothing more I want to tell you. What are you implying?
Nadal doesn't have many fanboys, just me, Blaze and Deivid :awww: I'm extending an open invitation to you :D

You present arguments but they're mainly flawed. We've never seen Tsonga or Nadal play at their very best, and certainly not at the same time. It was a ridiculous thread and several of your posts were ridiculous.

What we can however say is that Nadal has done a hell of a lot more than Tsonga on hard courts. And to be honest, that's pretty much all that matters.

l_mac
04-01-2008, 01:06 AM
My issue with regard to all fanboys (or fangirls - why would you drag gender into this? :confused:) is that they just state their PS "opinion" without anything to back it up whatsoever and think that's a legitimate way of presenting an argument. Whether it's Nadal fanboys who think that he has a higher top level (and let's not discuss again what that means - it's been covered already) than Tsonga on hard court or Roddick fangirls who say that he has the best forehand in the world makes no difference to me. As I have already said all this on numerous occasions - no, there's nothing more I want to tell you. What are you implying?

I think you're a hater, completely unable to give an unbiased assessment of Nadal's game. :shrug: You anti-fans are just as blind and biased as us "fangirls," but the tragic thing is you don't realise it.

tennizen
04-01-2008, 01:06 AM
That's more to do with the inherent intangibility of the question than with the argument at hand though. I certainly can back it up much, much better than you can back up yours.

Yeah so this is a game. Take an inherently intangible question and try to argue endlessly so we can see who the smartest person here is. I already bowed down to your intellectually superiority before. I can do it again if you want:shrug:

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 01:10 AM
Nadal doesn't have many fanboys, just me, Blaze and Deivid :awww: I'm extending an open invitation to you :D

You present arguments but they're mainly flawed. We've never seen Tsonga or Nadal play at their very best, and certainly not at the same time. It was a ridiculous thread and several of your posts were ridiculous.

What we can however say is that Nadal has done a hell of a lot more than Tsonga on hard courts. And to be honest, that's pretty much all that matters.

I cannot stand Nadal's game, so I'll politely decline. As for the rest... More bullshit. Okay, so what are the flaws then? You can't just say that there are flaws there and stop at that. That's (you guessed it!) bullshit. And you can analyze a potential match-up without actually having seen it. Let me put it this way: if we somehow could stage said matchup under the conditions that were discussed, Tsonga would be the ex ante favorite. Heck, you're basically implying that things can only be evaluated ex post. That's silly.

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 01:12 AM
I think you're a hater, completely unable to give an unbiased assessment of Nadal's game. :shrug: You anti-fans are just as blind and biased as us "fangirls," but the tragic thing is you don't realise it.

Based on WHAT exactly? I AM a hater (look, I'm admitting it GLADLY :wavey:), but I never let my feelings influence my reasoning. That would be illogical. What has not been unbiased in what I have written? It's not like I'm suggesting that Tsonga would beat Nadal on clay or anything like that, now is it? Come on, you have no argument whatsoever. Just saying my arguments are biased doesn't make it true.

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 01:13 AM
Yeah so this is a game. Take an inherently intangible question and try to argue endlessly so we can see who the smartest person here is. I already bowed down to your intellectually superiority before. I can do it again if you want:shrug:

That's not what I want. What I want is for you to offer a plausible explanation to why what I have written may not be true and, in case you cannot do so, side with it. That's the logical approach.

tennizen
04-01-2008, 01:20 AM
That's not what I want. What I want is for you to offer a plausible explanation to why what I have written may not be true and, in case you cannot do so, side with it. That's the logical approach.

If its inherently intangible, then we can only argue upto the point of intangibility. And I don't see any reason to do that.

Svetlana.
04-01-2008, 01:27 AM
i was too quick declaring Davys match as the worst

Tsongas performance was beyond pathetic, Benneteau did nothing

I completely disagree ...

go Benneteau :rocker2::rocker2::rocker2:

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 01:29 AM
If its inherently intangible, then we can only argue upto the point of intangibility. And I don't see any reason to do that.

"Who has the best forehand" is inherently intangible too. That does not mean that it cannot be discussed.

tennizen
04-01-2008, 01:31 AM
"Who has the best forehand" is inherently intangible too. That does not mean that it cannot be discussed.

Yes but people may not be willing to do that not because they are stupid but because they can't be bothered to logically consolidate it.

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 01:34 AM
Yes but people may not be willing to do that not because they are stupid but because they can't be bothered to logically consolidate it.

True, but if they offer an opinion, they should be ready to back it up. Otherwise, the discussion is pointless. All the posts could just contain one single name.

StevoTG
04-01-2008, 01:50 AM
Yet another nice win for Benneteau :hatoff:

CooCooCachoo
04-01-2008, 06:42 AM
What is Julien doing :rolls:

World Beater
04-01-2008, 06:52 AM
tsonga has made nice progress but he is not as consistent as most ppl think.

stebs
04-01-2008, 09:02 AM
If its inherently intangible, then we can only argue upto the point of intangibility. And I don't see any reason to do that.

Look. I'm not as sure of myself as Kax but at the same time, while he is ery rude, he does have a point and has explained it fairly well. You haven't actually provided any reasoning for your opinion at all which is what irritates him. If you think you have a point why not show what it is, if not to Kax, do so to me.

As for the intangible stuff, 99% of threads on here have that problem. Almost all debates are never won or lost, if it was possible for that to happen then they wouldn't be starting in the first place because if a question has a tangible answer nobody is stupid enough to argue against that.

Anyway, it's your decision, but while Kax isn't making friends with the tone of his posts he does actually hold some reasoning and your argument, without any backup of reasoning, looks quite weak.

Howard
04-01-2008, 12:35 PM
It’s remarkable how a guy can go from being a potential GOAT to a total turkey in one match around here. Tough crowd.

tennizen
04-01-2008, 01:21 PM
Look. I'm not as sure of myself as Kax but at the same time, while he is ery rude, he does have a point and has explained it fairly well. You haven't actually provided any reasoning for your opinion at all which is what irritates him. If you think you have a point why not show what it is, if not to Kax, do so to me.

As for the intangible stuff, 99% of threads on here have that problem. Almost all debates are never won or lost, if it was possible for that to happen then they wouldn't be starting in the first place because if a question has a tangible answer nobody is stupid enough to argue against that.

Anyway, it's your decision, but while Kax isn't making friends with the tone of his posts he does actually hold some reasoning and your argument, without any backup of reasoning, looks quite weak.

What a judgemental post! First I am not all gaga over logic and I don't believe reasoning and debates in a field like tennis lead to anything at all. I have seen your posts quite a bit here and it irritates me as well to see you go into pages of discussion which finally cannot be proved one way or another. I hold my opinions, I state them when I feel like and in no way need to justify them. And I don't impose my views on anyone else. If I am proven wrong I make a mental adjustment and move on. I simply detest the reduction of everything into a logical framework.

Reg, the current topic, KaxMisha came into the Tsonga-Nadal comparison thread and made a stupid post like" Mods, please ban anyone who votes for Nadal on this poll". It irritated me to no extent and the only reason I made a few posts in that thread was because of his provocative statement.

So please refrain from lecturing me on an issue which was not your concern in the first place.

gnaz
04-01-2008, 02:31 PM
Tsonga is the new Baghdatis.

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 03:28 PM
Look. I'm not as sure of myself as Kax but at the same time, while he is ery rude, he does have a point and has explained it fairly well. You haven't actually provided any reasoning for your opinion at all which is what irritates him. If you think you have a point why not show what it is, if not to Kax, do so to me.

As for the intangible stuff, 99% of threads on here have that problem. Almost all debates are never won or lost, if it was possible for that to happen then they wouldn't be starting in the first place because if a question has a tangible answer nobody is stupid enough to argue against that.

Anyway, it's your decision, but while Kax isn't making friends with the tone of his posts he does actually hold some reasoning and your argument, without any backup of reasoning, looks quite weak.

What a judgemental post! First I am not all gaga over logic and I don't believe reasoning and debates in a field like tennis lead to anything at all. I have seen your posts quite a bit here and it irritates me as well to see you go into pages of discussion which finally cannot be proved one way or another. I hold my opinions, I state them when I feel like and in no way need to justify them. And I don't impose my views on anyone else. If I am proven wrong I make a mental adjustment and move on. I simply detest the reduction of everything into a logical framework.

Reg, the current topic, KaxMisha came into the Tsonga-Nadal comparison thread and made a stupid post like" Mods, please ban anyone who votes for Nadal on this poll". It irritated me to no extent and the only reason I made a few posts in that thread was because of his provocative statement.

So please refrain from lecturing me on an issue which was not your concern in the first place.

These two posts perfectly summarize why stebs is one of the very best posters around here, while tennizen... well, isn't.

Here's a short list of some of my opinions:
Nadal has straigher hair than Marcelo Rios.
Feliciano Lopez is a woman.
Federer has never won a Grand Slam tournament.

I refuse to defend them in any way, but if you disagree and want me to back them up, I will be offended and just tell you that you're wrong and I'm right.
:retard: :retard: :retard: :retard: :retard:

tennizen
04-01-2008, 03:36 PM
These two posts perfectly summarize why stebs is one of the very best posters around here, while tennizen... well, isn't.

Here's a short list of some of my opinions:
Nadal has straigher hair than Marcelo Rios.
Feliciano Lopez is a woman.
Federer has never won a Grand Slam tournament.

I refuse to defend them in any way, but if you disagree and want me to back them up, I will be offended and just tell you that you're wrong and I'm right.
:retard: :retard: :retard: :retard: :retard:

I am glad you don't think I am the best poster. I would really suffer it if was otherwise.

I will never ask you to back up your opinions because if they differed from mine I would just let them be. So the scenario you presented wouldn't occur:wavey:

KaxMisha
04-01-2008, 03:40 PM
I am glad you don't think I am the best poster. I would really suffer it if was otherwise.

I will never ask you to back up your opinions because if they differed from mine I would just let them be. So the scenario you presented wouldn't occur:wavey:

Riiight, 'cause right and wrong do not exist - there's just different opinions, none more correct than the other. COME ON! Spare me! :retard::retard::retard::retard::retard:

tennizen
04-01-2008, 03:45 PM
Riiight, 'cause right and wrong do not exist - there's just different opinions, none more correct than the other. COME ON! Spare me! :retard::retard::retard::retard::retard:

In a lot of cases, yes. In a few cases, where it isn't like that,I would make sure the other person wants to be corrected or informed by someone else before jumping to tell him/her all that I know.

stebs
04-01-2008, 05:17 PM
What a judgemental post!
Sorry if it seemed that way. My intention was to be frank, not judgemental.

First I am not all gaga over logic and I don't believe reasoning and debates in a field like tennis lead to anything at all.
Then why are you posting on a tennis discussion board?

I have seen your posts quite a bit here and it irritates me as well to see you go into pages of discussion which finally cannot be proved one way or another.
Again. It's a tennis discussion board. If tennis discussion irritates you then I will gently suggest that you are perhaps in the wrong place.

I hold my opinions, I state them when I feel like and in no way need to justify them.
Well then be prepared to be argued against. I do not back up the harshness of tone that someone like KaxMisha employs but at the same time simply stating your opinion and refusing to justify them is obviously not going to get a lot of respect on a board meant for discussion. If you refuse to discuss why not just open a word document and write your opinion in there?

And I don't impose my views on anyone else. If I am proven wrong I make a mental adjustment and move on. I simply detest the reduction of everything into a logical framework.
Of course you are correct when you say you will never prove anything which is objective but that does not mean discussion is pointless. I have had my opinion swayed by people on issues here and not because they 'proved' anything.

Reg, the current topic, KaxMisha came into the Tsonga-Nadal comparison thread and made a stupid post like" Mods, please ban anyone who votes for Nadal on this poll". It irritated me to no extent and the only reason I made a few posts in that thread was because of his provocative statement.
Okay. That's fine but you are going to look stupid if you say you dislike discussions about tennis on a tennis message board.

So please refrain from lecturing me on an issue which was not your concern in the first place.
:lol: Grow up. It's a public message board, you state your opinion and I decided to ask you why you felt in such a way, if you don't want me to reply then either don't post or find somewhere private.

Vyomsky
04-01-2008, 05:53 PM
Sorry if it seemed that way. My intention was to be frank, not judgemental.


Then why are you posting on a tennis discussion board?


Again. It's a tennis discussion board. If tennis discussion irritates you then I will gently suggest that you are perhaps in the wrong place.


Well then be prepared to be argued against. I do not back up the harshness of tone that someone like KaxMisha employs but at the same time simply stating your opinion and refusing to justify them is obviously not going to get a lot of respect on a board meant for discussion. If you refuse to discuss why not just open a word document and write your opinion in there?


Of course you are correct when you say you will never prove anything which is objective but that does not mean discussion is pointless. I have had my opinion swayed by people on issues here and not because they 'proved' anything.


Okay. That's fine but you are going to look stupid if you say you dislike discussions about tennis on a tennis message board.


:lol: Grow up. It's a public message board, you state your opinion and I decided to ask you why you felt in such a way, if you don't want me to reply then either don't post or find somewhere private.

Interesting debate. I agree that it is an open discussion forum and you can reply to whomever. But I think you have not understood the context properly. I suggest you read the original thread before siding up with someone or disagreeing with someone. Tennizen's posts were more to KaxMisha's statements than on the topic. So if you take the meaning of her statements without understanding the context you are the one looking stupid. Doesn't matter if you are the best poster of MTF.

groundstroke
04-01-2008, 05:55 PM
Tsonga needs more consistency. Badghatis had a good year in 2007, but it took him 2 years to reach the required amount of consistency for the top 20.

tennizen
04-01-2008, 06:04 PM
[QUOTE]Sorry if it seemed that way. My intention was to be frank, not judgemental.

Then why are you posting on a tennis discussion board?
Again. It's a tennis discussion board. If tennis discussion irritates you then I will gently suggest that you are perhaps in the wrong place.
Well then be prepared to be argued against. I do not back up the harshness of tone that someone like KaxMisha employs but at the same time simply stating your opinion and refusing to justify them is obviously not going to get a lot of respect on a board meant for discussion. If you refuse to discuss why not just open a word document and write your opinion in there?
Of course you are correct when you say you will never prove anything which is objective but that does not mean discussion is pointless. I have had my opinion swayed by people on issues here and not because they 'proved' anything.
Okay. That's fine but you are going to look stupid if you say you dislike discussions about tennis on a tennis message board.



It is your opinion that MTF is a board for tennis discussion. For me MTF is a board for tennis information and a place where I meet other people who are as fond of tennis as I am. In addition I am amused by MTF which is another reason I post here.

Doesn't mean I look forward to every single long rambling discussion about who plays better in a hypothetical situation. I usually avoid posting in such discussions because they tire me. I don't think there is anything stupid about that but feel free to differ.

:lol: Grow up. It's a public message board, you state your opinion and I decided to ask you why you felt in such a way, if you don't want me to reply then either don't post or find somewhere private.

I didn't have a problem with your earlier post. I already replied to you that this had to do with KaxMisha and nothing related to the topic. I disliked the tone of your post more than the fact that you interfered which is why I stated it as such. You clarified that it was not your intention which is fine with me.

Roland9
04-01-2008, 06:25 PM
It seems this all went off-topic already so, what the hell...

First, Tennizen, I love your sig. :)

Now, I myself (you can still consider me a newbie) registered to this forum to seek both information and discussion... Unfortunately, I found out that most of the "discussions" here usually consist of strong mumbo-jumbo talk, so the information seeking looks like a priority now... Still, I think there are some good posters here, and it is fun reading & participating detailed discussions about tennis once in a while.

l_mac
04-01-2008, 06:31 PM
It seems this all went off-topic already so, what the hell...

First, Tennizen, I love your sig. :)

Now, I myself (you can still consider me a newbie) registered to this forum to seek both information and discussion... Unfortunately, I found out that most of the "discussions" here usually consist of strong mumbo-jumbo talk, so the information seeking looks like a priority now... Still, I think there are some good posters here, and it is fun reading & participating detailed discussions about tennis once in a while.

:hug: You should have said and we could have told you how "discussion" works here on MTF.

MTF discussion:

Poster A starts thread. Poster B replies, taking a different view from the opening post. Poster A repeats original opinion. Poster B replies, repeating their original opinion. Poster A reposts original opinion and adds insult to Poster B. Poster B replies again with their view, and responds to insult. Poster A repeats original opinion etc etc etc etc.

stebs doesn't insult people, it must be said. At least not in the transparant manner of a KaxMisha or a Farenhajt :hug:

tennizen
04-01-2008, 06:34 PM
It seems this all went off-topic already so, what the hell...

First, Tennizen, I love your sig. :)

Now, I myself (you can still consider me a newbie) registered to this forum to seek both information and discussion... Unfortunately, I found out that most of the "discussions" here usually consist of strong mumbo-jumbo talk, so the information seeking looks like a priority now... Still, I think there are some good posters here, and it is fun reading & participating detailed discussions about tennis once in a while.

Thanks( about the signature bit):) I understand that point of view. But if you question someone's interest in Tennis(and knowledge) just because they don't find what you said fun, I have a problem with that:lol:

Roland9
04-01-2008, 06:34 PM
:hug: You should have said and we could have told you how "discussion" works here on MTF.

MTF discussion:

Poster A starts thread. Poster B replies, taking a different view from the opening post. Poster A repeats original opinion. Poster B replies, repeating their original opinion. Poster A reposts original opinion and adds insult to Poster B. Poster B replies again with their view, and responds to insult. Poster A repeats original opinion etc etc etc etc.

Aaah, indeed, that looks like an accurate description. :lol:

tennizen
04-01-2008, 06:35 PM
:hug: You should have said and we could have told you how "discussion" works here on MTF.

MTF discussion:

Poster A starts thread. Poster B replies, taking a different view from the opening post. Poster A repeats original opinion. Poster B replies, repeating their original opinion. Poster A reposts original opinion and adds insult to Poster B. Poster B replies again with their view, and responds to insult. Poster A repeats original opinion etc etc etc etc.

stebs doesn't insult people, it must be said. At least not in the transparant manner of a KaxMisha or a Farenhajt :hug:

:lol: Agree completely

KaxMisha
04-02-2008, 03:31 AM
:hug: You should have said and we could have told you how "discussion" works here on MTF.

MTF discussion:

Poster A starts thread. Poster B replies, taking a different view from the opening post. Poster A repeats original opinion. Poster B replies, repeating their original opinion. Poster A reposts original opinion and adds insult to Poster B. Poster B replies again with their view, and responds to insult. Poster A repeats original opinion etc etc etc etc.

stebs doesn't insult people, it must be said. At least not in the transparant manner of a KaxMisha or a Farenhajt :hug:

I certainly do insult people, but to say that I post in the manner suggested above is a blatant lie. I always back up what I say and have written some very long posts because of it. I could dig a few of them up if it comes to that. Again, you are just spewing out bullshit without anything to back it up. Not that I'm surprised, though.