Federer And Nadal "scream For Help" [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Federer And Nadal "scream For Help"

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vamosnadal
04-16-2007, 10:41 AM
It's just been announced on the news over here that Federer and Nadal have sat side by a side in a press conference and have publically issued a "scream for help" against all of the changes being made by the ATP and in particular De Villiers. They say he is not listening to the players wishes and ignoring their thoughts. They say they are making an announcement through the media on purpose to make the ATP start listening.

Anyone got any more information??

(source for all of this BBC Five Live)

Sunset of Age
04-16-2007, 10:43 AM
I'm very interested about this too - hope anyone can provide more info indeed.

If so - YAYYYY!!! for Fed and Raf!!! :worship: :worship: :worship: :yeah:

Dougie
04-16-2007, 10:45 AM
Sounds VERY interesting. I suppose this could the beginning of the end for DeVilliers.

refero*fervens
04-16-2007, 10:50 AM
Ooh, this is big :D; thanks for the info, hoping for more news soon!

Naranoc
04-16-2007, 11:10 AM
Just heard the midday news on Five Live, and a transcript of what was said:

''The world's number one tennis player has been uncharacteristically controversial, and slammed tennis' governing bodies over changes they want to implment. He and other top players have stated that they are unhappy at the pace of reform, and frustrated that players concerns are not being listened to.

''We'd like to have a little more say. It's just a scream for help'' ''

That's it so far, I think.

vamosnadal
04-16-2007, 11:12 AM
It has been on the news again under the headline "World's top tennis player slams the governing bodies"

BBC reported within the last hour Federer has given a press conference, during which he has been "uncharacteristically controversial." Apparently Fed has said the leading players don't agree with a lot of the changes being made to the ATP and are all incredibly concerned at the pace in which these changes are being suggested and implemented. They are very frustrated that the players' concerns are not being listened to and so feel it is necessary to say something to the media.

The earlier bulletin said Nadal was sitting beside him providing a united front. They didn't comment about what Nadal had said on either occassion. Both pieces played a quick snatch of Federer talking about the above saying this is "a little scream for help"

EDIT: sorry Naranoc, we must have posted at the same time!!!

Naranoc
04-16-2007, 11:16 AM
It has been on the news again under the headline "World Top tennis player slams the governing bodies"

They say "within the last hour Federer has given a press conference, during which he has been uncharacteristically controversial." He has said the and are incredibly concerned at the pace in which these changes are being leading players don't agree with a lot of the changes being made to the ATP suggested and implemented. They are very frustrated that the players concerns are not being listened to and so feel it is necessary to say something to the media.

The earlier bulletin said Nadal was sitting beside him providing a united front. They didn't comment about what Nadal had said. Both pieces played a quick snatch of Federer talking about the above saying this is "a little scream for help"

:lol: More comprehensive than mine :yeah:

SBruguera
04-16-2007, 11:20 AM
I suppose Nadal was there giving his support to Federer´s words and letting the english-speakers talk.

vamosnadal
04-16-2007, 11:25 AM
I suppose Nadal was there giving his support to Federer´s words and letting the english-speakers talk.


I'm sure Nadal probably said stuff as well, it could be they just reported on Federer as he is the number one and probably a bit more famous over here. It was only a short newsflash. However even if he just supported Federer as you say, isn't it great to see the top two put together a united front for the sake of tennis!:)

Ferrero Forever
04-16-2007, 11:26 AM
Yeah thats the way. Stick it to him Roger and Rafael!!! Down with Disney

Andre♥
04-16-2007, 11:29 AM
I thought they would be announcing their marriage! :sad:

I wonder what would happen if Mr Disney was the ATP president in the McEnroe and Connors era! :haha:

scoobs
04-16-2007, 11:30 AM
I'm glad to hear this - whatever the merits or otherwise of all these changes, they need to SLOW DOWN. They are trying to do far too much too quickly and the danger is that we'll end up with a complete mess. They should not be trying to change so many things at once.

Saumon
04-16-2007, 11:35 AM
:worship: Federer :worship: Rafa

Another slap in De Villiers's face :banana:

mamasue
04-16-2007, 11:39 AM
Top tennis players call for more input into controversial ATP 2009 revamp

Posted : Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:05:00GMT
Author : DPA

Monte Carlo - Roger Federer called on Monday for more player input into controversial ATP reforms, characterising his plea as "a scream for help."The Swiss world number 1 spoke at this week's ill-starred Monte Carlo Open which began its run under a cloud after being touted as a likely candidate for a downgrade from elite Masters Series status from 2009.

Federer, who has worries on the court after losing his last two matches on hard court, will be making the switch to clay as top seed. He lost the 2006 final to Rafael Nadal.

With time running out on ATP plans to reveal the scope of changes in coming weeks for the 2009 season, the Swiss said it's time to slow the pace and listen to players, whom both he and number 2 Nadal feel are being ignored.

"We are the ones out there on court in the tennis shorts, they are not," he said of ATP bosses in Florida.

"We have not been happy the past few months. A (player) meeting in Miami (last month) was a big disappointment. These decisions need to be taken more slowly, we want a say as well."

The even-handed Federer also included the ITF in his criticism, saying meeting with the organisers of four Grand Slams are also urgently needed regarding the awkward annual scheduling of the Davis Cup.

Federer said that his meetings over past months with new ATP CEO Etienne de Villiers had resulted in little progress. The Swiss was among signatories of a letter from players which many feel has been filed away without action.

"We need to speak with the bosses, things are going too fast," said Federer.

Federer and Nadal and others are also opposed to the pending demotion of the Hamburg Masters, a personal favourite of Federer. Hamburg and Monte Carlo recently filed suit in Delaware against the ATP.

Shanghai is likely to be become the eighth Masters under the ATP plan, with only European masters events affected by the shakeup and not American ones.

"I have had many meeting with ET (De Villiers). He listens but then goes and does things his way - I wish he would listen more. We have gone from (predecessor) Mark Miles doing nothing to ET doing too much."

World number 3 Nikolay Davydenko was something less of a diplomat as he voiced his complaints.

"ET says 'trust me.' He wants too much trust, you can only believe five or ten percent of his decisions."

De Villiers has already been forced to end a controversial round-robin experiment in doubles after a major rules implementation problems at Las Vegas in February.

Davydenko was also critical of American events remain untouched by the proposed calendar changes. Indian Wells, Miami and Cincinnati remain as is in the US while Canada's revolving event in Montreal and Toronto is also unscathed.

He feels that Europeans are being hard done-by: "We like Monte Carlo, that's why we play it."

Ivan Ljubicic, elected head of the Player Council, joined Federer and Rafael Nadal in their plea for prudence.

"We don't want it to come to a situation where we say we don't want to play," said the Croatian. "ET didn't know much tennis when he took the job (in 2005).

"He's been willing to learn, but it seems like the advice from those around him has not been that good."

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/52372.html

vamosnadal
04-16-2007, 11:40 AM
Player power!!!! Well done to the players for standing up to all of this - Mr Disney and his changes have been very concerning!

Naranoc
04-16-2007, 11:41 AM
Thanks for the article mamasue :D (and vamosnadal a minute later :lol: )

World number 3 Nikolay Davydenko was something less of a diplomat as he voiced his complaints.

"ET says 'trust me.' He wants too much trust, you can only believe five or ten percent of his decisions."

Giving him far too much credit :tape:

Ferrero Forever
04-16-2007, 11:44 AM
Thanks for the article, I hope that somebody takes on board what the players are saying.

Castafiore
04-16-2007, 11:50 AM
Excellent news!:bounce:

Congrats to all the these top players for putting up a united front in the media!

ET says 'trust me.' He wants too much trust, you can only believe five or ten percent of his decisions."

...
Davydenko was also critical of American events remain untouched by the proposed calendar changes. Indian Wells, Miami and Cincinnati remain as is in the US while Canada's revolving event in Montreal and Toronto is also unscathed.
Davydenko! :worship:

IFoughtThe
04-16-2007, 11:50 AM
Thanks for the article, I hope that somebody takes on board what the players are saying.

Not good for the sport all this in-fighting.

jitterbug
04-16-2007, 11:51 AM
World number 3 Nikolay Davydenko was something less of a diplomat as he voiced his complaints.

"ET says 'trust me.' He wants too much trust, you can only believe five or ten percent of his decisions."

I'd like to see EDV try to fine Kolya for that! :tape:

Not good for the sport all this in-fighting.

Somebody's had to do something; if the players have been unhappy with all these changes and their concerns haven't been adequately entertained by the ATP, they have a right to speak up too.

scoobs
04-16-2007, 11:53 AM
You get the sense that this is starting to build up into something and things are coming to a head - it's going to get quite unpleasant unless some sort of compromise can be found that keeps everyone (mostly) happy or at least feeling they're getting some of what they want.

mamasue
04-16-2007, 12:01 PM
Since I'm posting these articles for vamosbrigade.com I may as well post them over here, too. :)


16/04/07 12h12 GMT+1

AFP News brief
Federer calls for time-out in ATP rush to reform

by Scott Williams

Roger Federer on Monday issued a warning to ATP supremo Etienne de Villiers to slow the pace of tennis reform in the face of united opposition from players.

The world number one, flanked by second-ranked rival Rafael Nadal, present a unified stand from top competitors concerned that the men's sanctioning body is rushing to revise the circuit by 2009.

Those plans looks to include a downgrade of the Masters Series status of the historic Monte Carlo event, being played this week.

"This is a scream for help," said the Swiss, who expressed his frustration that administrators from both the ATP as well as the ITF, which oversees the four Grand Slams, are powering ahead without listening at all to players.

"We've not been happy the past few months. A (player) meeting in Miami (last month) was a big disappointment. These decisions need to be taken more slowly, we want a say as well.

"We're the ones out there on court in the tennis shorts, they're not."

Federer and Nadal stand united in asking the ATP to consider carefully the ramifications of cutting the current nine Masters Series tournaments to seven in 2009, with Monte Carlo and Hamburg tipped for likely downgrades.

Both events recently filed suit in Delaware against the ATP.

Shanghai is likely to be added as the eighth Masters after being stripped of the season-ending Masters Cup from 2008.

Federer was among scores of players who recently signed a letter to the ATP, which the Swiss star says the body appears to have taken no notice of.

"We need to speak with the bosses, things are going too fast," said the cautious Swiss amid reports that a provisional 2009 calendar is set to be unveiled within a week or two.

Federer, who admitted that he would much rather be concentrating on his tennis after losing back-to-back matches last month on American hardcourt against Guillermo Canas, is top seed at Monte Carlo this week.

He lost the final in 2006 against Nadal, who won three run-up titles on the way to a second consecutive trophy at the French Open last June.

"I've had many meetings with ET (De Villiers). He listens but then goes and does things his way - I wish he would listen more.

"We've gone from (predecessor) Mark Miles doing nothing to ET doing too much."

While Federer's Swiss upbringing gave his words a serious, non-confrontational tone, there was pure venom from world number three Nikolay Davydenko.

"ET says 'trust me' like all Americans," he said of the South African CEO. "He wants too much trust, you can only believe five or ten percent of his decisions."

The administrator was forced to roll back a controversial experimental round-robin doubles format this spring after it went badly wrong at the Las Vegas tournament, a chaotic situation which Federer in particular had predicted from the start.

Davydenko also questions why none of the four North American Masters Series events were touched in the planned shakeup, leaving the Americans with Indian Wells, Miami and Cincinnati and Canada with it's August event.

Players are particularly incensed that Monte Carlo - European headquarters of the ATP - is set to be downgraded.

"We like Monte Carlo," said the Russian. "That's why we play it. I don't think ET has even seen our letter."

ATP Player Board president Ivan Ljubicic also called for a re-think before it's too late while still maintaining the calm.

"We don't want it to come to a situation where we say we don't want to play," said the Croatian. "ET didn't know much tennis when he took the job (in 2005).

"He's been willing to learn, but it seems like the advice from those around him has not been that good.

"We don't have time to lose. People who will be putting on tournaments in 2009 still don't know what kind of a tournament they will have. It could soon be too late (for player input).

"We don't have much time, it's only a year and a half away."

http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/administration/afp-news.html?id=070416111209.dmf5grlb&cat=null

uglyamerican
04-16-2007, 12:04 PM
My only complaint is that these two didn't speak up sooner, but it's good they're making a stink now.

Not too much damage has been done that can't be reversed.

Perhaps the players will take a closer look at the actions of the ATP and the kind of person they hire to replace ET. Hopefully in the future the "Players Council" will be more representative of the views of the players.

uglyamerican
04-16-2007, 12:12 PM
"ET says 'trust me' like all Americans," he said of the South African CEO. "He wants too much trust, you can only believe five or ten percent of his decisions."

"We like Monte Carlo," said the Russian. "That's why we play it. I don't think ET has even seen our letter."


:confused: Davydenko plays tournaments that he thinks are a joke.

5-10% believability is still better than what you get from Putin.

{Annie}
04-16-2007, 12:13 PM
:worship: :worship: well done boys!!!!!!!!!! stand up and fight :rocker2:

Deea
04-16-2007, 12:16 PM
Wow...this is really good news. Way to go boys! Finally speaking out! :yeah: Maybe this the only way to stop ET :tape: the ideas in that man's head :rolleyes:

amierin
04-16-2007, 12:19 PM
In Miami it sounded as if it was the Spaniards who were leading the charge against "Brave New World" as it's been called and doing it alone. Now that it's clear that it's the European part of the tour that will be taking the hit while the US events are left alone they've all had to unite in opposition to Mr Disney's plans.
I wonder what Blake, the Players Council v.p. will say?

alelysafina
04-16-2007, 12:19 PM
Good job guys! :yeah: The players need to show a united front against these changes, that's the only wy they will be taken seriously.

:confused: Davydenko plays tournaments that he thinks are a joke.

5-10% believability is still better than what you get from Putin.

That has nothing to do with it, Nikolay plays more tournaments than anyone lese, surely this would make him more knowledgeable and helpful concerning information towards changing the calendar.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Completely off topic and not even relevant.

MariaV
04-16-2007, 12:23 PM
While Federer's Swiss upbringing gave his words a serious, non-confrontational tone, there was pure venom from world number three Nikolay Davydenko.

"ET says 'trust me' like all Americans," he said of the South African CEO. "He wants too much trust, you can only believe five or ten percent of his decisions."

The administrator was forced to roll back a controversial experimental round-robin doubles format this spring after it went badly wrong at the Las Vegas tournament, a chaotic situation which Federer in particular had predicted from the start.

Davydenko also questions why none of the four North American Masters Series events were touched in the planned shakeup, leaving the Americans with Indian Wells, Miami and Cincinnati and Canada with it's August event.

Players are particularly incensed that Monte Carlo - European headquarters of the ATP - is set to be downgraded.

"We like Monte Carlo," said the Russian. "That's why we play it. I don't think ET has even seen our letter."


WTG Kolya! :rocker: :banana: :hatoff:

decrepitude
04-16-2007, 12:38 PM
Hey, I never realised the RR fiasco was confined to doubles. . .

Bit of dodgy journalism there! :lol:

lunahielo
04-16-2007, 12:43 PM
Thanks for the article!

You go, guys~~:bounce:
Give 'em hell!
:angel:

uglyamerican
04-16-2007, 12:44 PM
That has nothing to do with it, Nikolay plays more tournaments than anyone lese, surely this would make him more knowledgeable and helpful concerning information towards changing the calendar.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Completely off topic and not even relevant.

This years MC has a lower entry cutoff than the '06 Paris Masters. Apparently a lot of players do not enjoy playing there. Davydenko plays in tournaments that he doesn't even want to play in--according to him.

Byrd
04-16-2007, 12:44 PM
The players will win no doubt about it, their the ones who comes out every day,every week and every year to play tennis and promote and make revenue for the sport, thats why if they start to boycott events, disney is screwed.

JustJames
04-16-2007, 12:46 PM
A report has just appeared on the BBC Website : http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/6559767.stm

Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal stood together to complain about the pace of proposed changes to the structure of men's professional tennis on Monday.

The world number one and two criticised administrators for rushing ahead with plans to change the Masters Series without listening to players' views.

"This is a scream for help," said Federer. "These decisions need to be taken more slowly, we want a say.

"We're the ones out there on court in the tennis shorts, they're not."

The 2009 schedule is set to be published and is thought to included cutting the nine-event Masters Series down to seven, with Monte Carlo and Hamburg likely to be downgraded.

Switzerland's Federer was among scores of players who recently signed a letter to the Association of Tennis Professionals, the game's governing body, complaining about the pace of change.

"We need to speak with the bosses, things are going too fast," he said.

"I've had many meetings with ET [ATP boss Etienne de Villiers]. He listens but then goes and does things his way - I wish he would listen more.

"We've gone from (predecessor) Mark Miles doing nothing to ET doing too much."

World number three Nikolay Davydenko questions why none of the four North American Masters Series events are going to be touched in the planned shake-up.

And ATP Player Board president Ivan Ljubicic called for talks before the situation worsens.

"We don't want it to come to a situation where we say we don't want to play," said the Croatian.

"We don't have time to lose. People who will be putting on tournaments in 2009 still don't know what kind of a tournament they will have. It could soon be too late (for player input).

"We don't have much time, it's only a year and a half away."

------------

Impressive stance.. :yeah:

amierin
04-16-2007, 12:47 PM
This years MC has a lower entry cutoff than the '06 Paris Masters. Apparently a lot of players do not enjoy playing there. Davydenko plays in tournaments that he doesn't even want to play in--according to him.

The only players who make no attempt to play here are, I'm ashamed to say, the Americans. There was a good quali draw for this event.
This is a popular event with fans and players.

alelysafina
04-16-2007, 12:51 PM
This years MC has a lower entry cutoff than the '06 Paris Masters. Apparently a lot of players do not enjoy playing there. Davydenko plays in tournaments that he doesn't even want to play in--according to him.

Oh please, we both know that Nikolay's english isn't the best and that what he said was probably in the heat of the moment.

The only players who make no attempt to play here are, I'm ashamed to say, the Americans. There was a good quali draw for this event.
This is a popular event with fans and players.

:yeah:

Sunset of Age
04-16-2007, 12:57 PM
My only complaint is that these two didn't speak up sooner, but it's good they're making a stink now.

Have to agree with you, but the most important thing is: They. Finally. DID. Speak. Up! And Fed and Raf together, no less... just great. :yeah:

Best news I've read... well, since Mr. Disney became the ATP Chairman. :mad: I guess it won't be for very long anymore. Down you go, Mr. Disney - good riddance!

uglyamerican
04-16-2007, 12:59 PM
This is a popular event with fans and players.

If this is true than they should keep the tournament there. I don't have any strong feelings about changing the site to Barcelona or somewherere else.

Why don't more players show up, if the players like it so much?

Hamburg gets criticized for player withdrawls, but Monte Carlo's fields are not any better than Hamburg's.

alelysafina
04-16-2007, 01:03 PM
If this is true than they should keep the tournament there. I don't have any strong feelings about changing the site to Barcelona or somewherere else.

Why don't more players show up, if the players like it so much?


Almost all players show up except the Amercians. Ask them why.

uglyamerican
04-16-2007, 01:13 PM
Almost all players show up except the Amercians. Ask them why.

Because it's not a popular tournament with all the players.

I don't know why they don't play there. The point is that they don't.

mallorn
04-16-2007, 01:14 PM
Good to see the top players finally addressing the problems openly and publicly, with the Miami letter we didn't really know what was in it, who signed it etc.
The players need to show a united front against these changes, that's the only wy they will be taken seriously.
Exactly. :yeah:

jitterbug
04-16-2007, 01:16 PM
Good to see the top players finally addressing the problems openly and publicly, with the Miami letter we didn't really know what was in it, who signed it etc.

They tried being discreet but it didn't work :shrug:

alelysafina
04-16-2007, 01:17 PM
Because it's not a popular tournament with all the players.

I don't know why they don't play there. The point is that they don't.

Just because the Americans don't play there, doesn't mean it's an unpopular tournament.

Black Adam
04-16-2007, 01:21 PM
ET :haha: :haha: Sounds quite correct as Disney is behaving like a total Stranger to Tennis :o

LocoPorElTenis
04-16-2007, 01:25 PM
This is good, but it's going to be a long battle.
Players need to start playing the strike card, the clown EDV is a tough nut to crack.

uglyamerican
04-16-2007, 01:28 PM
Just because the Americans don't play there, doesn't mean it's an unpopular tournament.

No, but it doesn't help. Rome and Hamburg get more American based players than Monte Carlo does. If more top players could be attracted to play a clay Masters tournament in a different European city, shouldn't the tournament be moved? Even if it's an historical tournament, if you're consistently getting 20% withdrawls something has to change.

Possibly the American based guys would not play the first clay masters no matter where it was held.

Duchova
04-16-2007, 01:29 PM
Vamos Roger, Rafa, Nikolay, Ivan and many others.

nobama
04-16-2007, 01:29 PM
This is great. :D Except for the 'let's bash North America (specifically the US)' crap. :rolleyes:

NicoFan
04-16-2007, 01:30 PM
I hate to see the players walk out - but it may be the only thing that works to get Mr. Disney's attention.

Of course, it's a double edged sword - fans rarely support players in strikes. But since this time it's not about money, they may get the fans support.

mallorn
04-16-2007, 01:32 PM
They're not about to strike yet. More quotes:

Federer leads charge against ATP over Monte Carlo row

Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:47PM BST

By Julien Pretot

MONTE CARLO (Reuters) - World number one Roger Federer, backed by several top players, has strongly criticised the ATP's plans to downgrade the Monte Carlo claycourt tournament in 2009.

The Swiss, who is top seed this week in the principality, slammed the lack of communication of the men's governing body.
Photo

"The ATP is moving really fast at the moment. Many of the players, we've had a letter signed several times about the ATP and the ITF about certain issues," Federer told reporters on Monday.

"I mean, issues like here in Monaco, with the 2009 calendar, and then obviously also things with the ITF, the weeks of Davis Cup. They don't seem to understand what we have a say, so we would just like to address this issue through the media for a change," he added.

"It's just a little scream for help. We're just not happy with the last few months. The players' meeting in Miami was a big disappointment for all of us.

"We had many issues on the table and we couldn't really discuss them at all, and decisions are being taken very soon for 2009, and we would just like to have a little say as well."

Earlier this month, Monte Carlo organisers filed an antitrust lawsuit against the ATP over its plans to downgrade the tournament from a Masters Series event.

The Hamburg claycourt event also filed a lawsuit over plans to downgrade it as the ATP are reshuffling the calendar from 2009 with Madrid moving from its present spot in October to become a spring claycourt Masters Series.

"It's been difficult, we've had a change at the top of ATP, we've been trying to talk to him (chairman Etienne de Villiers). I've had many, many meetings with him," said Federer.

"Of course he has his ideas. I wish he would just listen a little bit more to what we have to say.

"We've had a lot of issues with them (the ITF) as well, letters signed to them, told them what we think are the best Davis Cup weeks.

NO STRIKE

"They seem to respond that they know better than we do. They're not in the tennis shorts playing on the court and knowing how demanding Davis Cup and the ATP circuit is."

French Open champion Rafael Nadal, who was sitting beside Federer during Monday's news conference, ruled out the possibility of a strike.

"We want things to change but in a good way," he said.

Croatian Ivan Ljubicic, a French Open semi-finalist last year, believes the ATP is acting in the interest of the American tournaments at the expense of the European players.

"It's disappointing to see it's going to be downgraded," Ljubicic said of the Monte Carlo tournament.

"Are they afraid of U.S. tournaments? It was never an idea to touch anything over there. European players are the ones paying the price."

The towering Croatian also criticised the American players for their lack of support.

"The Americans never come here. For us it's not easy to go to Key Biscayne and Indian Wells, playing two tournaments in two weeks," he said.

World number nine James Blake and Andy Roddick, who is third in the ATP rankings, have pulled out of the Monte Carlo event.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/UK_TENNIS/idUKL169478920070416?pageNumber=1

nobama
04-16-2007, 01:33 PM
While Federer's Swiss upbringing gave his words a serious, non-confrontational tone, there was pure venom from world number three Nikolay Davydenko.

"ET says 'trust me' like all Americans," he said of the South African CEO. "He wants too much trust, you can only believe five or ten percent of his decisions."Note to Davydenko, ET isn't American.

CyBorg
04-16-2007, 01:34 PM
Because it's not a popular tournament with all the players.

I don't know why they don't play there. The point is that they don't.

Yeah - let's just bend over to the Americans and take it up the rear. All because they can't bring themselves to give a lick of effort on clay.

You're uninformed.

uglyamerican
04-16-2007, 01:35 PM
Yeah - let's just bend over to the Americans and take it up the rear. All because they can't bring themselves to give a lick of effort on clay.

You're uninformed.

More Americans play the other clay court Masters. Why don't they go to Monte Carlo?

Ad Wim
04-16-2007, 01:36 PM
Yeah - let's just bend over to the Americans and take it up the rear. All because they can't bring themselves to give a lick of effort on clay.

You're uninformed.

:worship:

Ad Wim
04-16-2007, 01:37 PM
More Americans play the other clay court Masters. Why don't they go to Monte Carlo?
Because they're terribly homesick and attach more value to a shitty tournament like Houston than to a TMS.

alelysafina
04-16-2007, 01:37 PM
No, but it doesn't help. Rome and Hamburg get more American based players than Monte Carlo does. If more top players could be attracted to play a clay Masters tournament in a different European city, shouldn't the tournament be moved? Even if it's an historical tournament, if you're consistently getting 20% withdrawls something has to change.

Possibly the American based guys would not play the first clay masters no matter where it was held.

Look personally I think that the Amercians don't play there because they know they suck at clay and they would like to avoid it as much as possible, plus it's to close to their beloved Houston tournament.

The reason MC should stay is because yes it is more historical but also because it is a better warm up tournament to Roland Garros because the conditions are more similar to it than they are in Hamburg. Personally I think Hamburg should go because it's just too close to Rome and not beneficial enough to the players. Money or no money this is about the players and changing the calendar so it is more beneficial to them and to their preparation in the slams.

CyBorg
04-16-2007, 01:38 PM
No, but it doesn't help. Rome and Hamburg get more American based players than Monte Carlo does. If more top players could be attracted to play a clay Masters tournament in a different European city, shouldn't the tournament be moved? Even if it's an historical tournament, if you're consistently getting 20% withdrawls something has to change.

Possibly the American based guys would not play the first clay masters no matter where it was held.

So what's your point? Do you even have one?

Does moving the masters series to Madrid change anything? Would American players treat Madrid any differently than they do Monte Carlo?

If it was up to people like you 80% of tennis today would be played on hard courts, but that's because you don't realize the serious repercussions this has on the game. The fact however remains that surfaces like clay and grass are speciality and are necessary to provide the game with variety that it needs (there is already less of it than 25-30 years ago). We need clay and we need Monte Carlo. Good riddance to Blake, Roddick and whoever else isn't up to snuff to compete on clay.

Ad Wim
04-16-2007, 01:39 PM
Look personally I think that the Amercians don't play there because they know they suck at clay and they would like to avoid it as much as possible, plus it's to close to their beloved Houston tournament.

:worship:

CyBorg
04-16-2007, 01:41 PM
More Americans play the other clay court Masters. Why don't they go to Monte Carlo?

Why do so many Spaniards turn their back on Wimbledon?

Because they don't want to do the work there and are likely to get ousted early. Do the math - the cost of travelling abroad for them could exceed the prize money that they would make.

It's a purely money decision. We should not penalize tournaments like Monte Carlo simply because several holier-than-thou players are afraid of a little challenge.

nobama
04-16-2007, 01:42 PM
Why do so many Spaniards turn their back on Wimbledon?

Because they don't want to do the work there and are likely to get ousted early. Do the math - the cost of travelling abroad for them could exceed the prize money that they would make.

It's a purely money decision. We should not penalize tournaments like Monte Carlo simply because several holier-than-thou players are afraid of a little challenge.
I highly doubt the decision to downgrade MC was because Roddick and Blake chose not to play it.

Castafiore
04-16-2007, 01:44 PM
Why do so many Spaniards turn their back on Wimbledon?
Not many Spaniards have turned their back on Wimbledon in the last couple of years.

laure xxx
04-16-2007, 01:45 PM
A "scream" for help? Seems like a strange choice of words to me. Sounds like they're in agony.

Bobby
04-16-2007, 01:48 PM
Because they're terribly homesick and attach more value to a shitty tournament like Houston than to a TMS.

Exactly. Americans are the ones who have most tournaments played in their home country. But when it's time to play some tennis in the Europe, some of them obviously don't care. You would think that it would be good preparation for the French Open to play Monte Carlo and stay in Europe after that and get used to red clay by playing tournaments and practicing.

But I bet Houston was a very good tournament...

CyBorg
04-16-2007, 01:48 PM
I highly doubt the decision to downgrade MC was because Roddick and Blake chose not to play it.

I think that it may have figured into De Villiers' decision that the fact that his favorite Americans skip Monte Carlo it is somehow an inferior location for tennis.

Even if this is not the case, the popularity of the tournament was questioned by the poster above and my point addressed that statement.

De Villiers is a village idiot who builds these magical castles in the sky like a deranged communist. He doesn't mind stepping over people while he does it too. The players must sign a petition to get him out once and for all. I recommend that they hit him right where it hurts - by skipping Cincinnati outright.

CyBorg
04-16-2007, 01:50 PM
Not many Spaniards have turned their back on Wimbledon in the last couple of years.

I did not mean to single out Spaniards specifically. Latinos, in general, however often skip Wimbledon if we look at history and would do so a lot more if it wasn't as prestigious as we know it to be. Many who do show up often look like they'd rather have stayed home (Argentinians like Coria in particular).

uglyamerican
04-16-2007, 01:51 PM
So what's your point? Do you even have one?

Does moving the masters series to Madrid change anything? Would American players treat Madrid any differently than they do Monte Carlo?


I don't know. I suspect you don't know either. I think they should keep 3 clay masters tournaments, but if they want to move one of them, I won't cry about it.

The whole concept of the Super 9/Masters is not very old, so I don't think it should be treated like a holy cow.

All of the ideas ET has come up with for changes have been garbage, but changes will be made at some point.

mangoes
04-16-2007, 01:53 PM
I, personally, don't like that statement from Davy about Americans.

Nevertheless, I must agree with them that it's ridiculous that none of the American masters are being touched...........specifically IW or Cincy. I also find it very hard to believe that IW is profitable. If IW were not owned by Sampras and the lot, more consideration would have been given into downgrading it.

Andy and Blake are playing Houston the week prior to MC. It's hard for them to make the transition. If anything Mr. Disney should consider cutting or merging that joke of a tournament, Houston, so that everyone is able to make it to MC.

CyBorg
04-16-2007, 01:55 PM
I don't know. I suspect you don't know either. I think they should keep 3 clay masters tournaments, but if they want to move one of them, I won't cry about it.

The whole concept of the Super 9/Masters is not very old, so I don't think it should be treated like a holy cow.

I am actually perfectly fine with two clay masters series tournaments as long as there is also one held on grass before Wimbledon. I don't think many people would make the case that Hamburg is worthy of a masters series tournament anymore.

Without Hamburg perhaps we will see an even greater rise in Monte Carlo's popularity.

P.S. I still don't get why Monte Carlo gets so much flack considering the quality of the draws we've seen in recent years in the indoor season - particulary Paris-Bercy. Who did Nikolai Davydenko beat for that title again? Hrbaty? Bwa-ahahahaha. Screw De Villiers up his dirty, foul, smelling rear end.

CyBorg
04-16-2007, 01:56 PM
I, personally, don't like that statement from Davy about Americans.

Nevertheless, I must agree with them that it's ridiculous that none of the American masters are being touched...........specifically IW or Cincy. I also find it very hard to believe that IW is profitable. If IW were not owned by Sampras and the lot, more consideration would have been given into downgrading it.

Andy and Blake are playing Houston the week prior to MC. It's hard for them to make the transition. If anything Mr. Disney should consider cutting or merging that joke of a tournament, Houston, so that everyone is able to make it to MC.

It is a shame. At least Cincy has a history. Miami and IW have none. Zilch. Money is keeping these events fixed in the agenda and money alone.

laure xxx
04-16-2007, 01:59 PM
It is a shame. At least Cincy has a history. Miami and IW have none. Zilch. Money is keeping these events fixed in the agenda and money alone.

Miami's all right - scrap Indian Wells. It's in a desert for God's sake. At least Miami has an adequate women's event, unlike IW. Anyhow, 2 big events like that in 2 consecutive weeks is just silly.

lisaplenske
04-16-2007, 02:00 PM
Croatian Ivan Ljubicic, a French Open semi-finalist last year, believes the ATP is acting in the interest of the American tournaments at the expense of the European players.

"It's disappointing to see it's going to be downgraded," Ljubicic said of the Monte Carlo tournament.

"Are they afraid of U.S. tournaments? It was never an idea to touch anything over there. European players are the ones paying the price."

The towering Croatian also criticised the American players for their lack of support.

"The Americans never come here. For us it's not easy to go to Key Biscayne and Indian Wells, playing two tournaments in two weeks," he said.

World number nine James Blake and Andy Roddick, who is third in the ATP rankings, have pulled out of the Monte Carlo event.

they are selfish,knowing only about themself cause there are so many tournaments in the USA.:rolleyes:

nobama
04-16-2007, 02:09 PM
I think that it may have figured into De Villiers' decision that the fact that his favorite Americans skip Monte Carlo it is somehow an inferior location for tennis.

Even if this is not the case, the popularity of the tournament was questioned by the poster above and my point addressed that statement.

De Villiers is a village idiot who builds these magical castles in the sky like a deranged communist. He doesn't mind stepping over people while he does it too. The players must sign a petition to get him out once and for all. I recommend that they hit him right where it hurts - by skipping Cincinnati outright.
I don't get this deVilliers caters to American players crap. He's not American, he doesn't office out of the USA. Why would he chose to play favorites with Roddick and Blake. :confused:

As far as MC not being popular because some US players choose not to show up....well that's :retard:

nobama
04-16-2007, 02:13 PM
Miami's all right - scrap Indian Wells. It's in a desert for God's sake. At least Miami has an adequate women's event, unlike IW. Anyhow, 2 big events like that in 2 consecutive weeks is just silly.
Never mind that IW has record crowds and that the likes of BJK, Pete Sampras and Chris Evert have invested in it. It needs to be scrapped because it's in the desert (yeah IW is sure a crappy part of the USA :lol: ). :rolleyes: And as far as the womens event, according to the new WTA roadmap IW will be a required event, like Miami is now.

laure xxx
04-16-2007, 02:15 PM
Never mind that IW has record crowds and that the likes of BJK, Pete Sampras and Chris Evert have invested in it. It needs to be scrapped because it's in the desert (yeah IW is sure a crappy part of the USA :lol: ). :rolleyes: And as far as the womens event, according to the new WTA roadmap IW will be a required event, like Miami is now.

I don't care. If not for the women, scrap it for the men.

alfonsojose
04-16-2007, 02:25 PM
Go, Kolya, Go :drool:

nobama
04-16-2007, 02:27 PM
I, personally, don't like that statement from Davy about Americans.

Nevertheless, I must agree with them that it's ridiculous that none of the American masters are being touched...........specifically IW or Cincy. I also find it very hard to believe that IW is profitable. If IW were not owned by Sampras and the lot, more consideration would have been given into downgrading it.

Andy and Blake are playing Houston the week prior to MC. It's hard for them to make the transition. If anything Mr. Disney should consider cutting or merging that joke of a tournament, Houston, so that everyone is able to make it to MC.I don't agree with downgrading MC, but why does one of the North American masters need to be touched. Both IW and Miami had record crowds this year. In fact I believe IW is just behind the slams in terms of attendance. And apparently Cincy has a long history and is one of the oldest events in North America.

As far as Blake & Roddick playing MC, the Bryan Brothers don't seem to have a problem playing Houston and MC so I think they should make an effort to play there. I don't buy this 'it's too long to be on the road crap'. It's not like they're the only ones to spend a lot of time away from home.

oz_boz
04-16-2007, 02:28 PM
Rome and Hamburg get more American based players than Monte Carlo does. If more top players could be attracted to play a clay Masters tournament in a different European city, shouldn't the tournament be moved? Even if it's an historical tournament, if you're consistently getting 20% withdrawls something has to change.
Possibly the American based guys would not play the first clay masters no matter where it was held.

I don´t like that Americans skip Mote Carlo, but it is not a big deal, particularly since they have a poor record there. All top claycourters play MC, Hamburg and Paris-Bercy are far worse in that respect.

I highly doubt the decision to downgrade MC was because Roddick and Blake chose not to play it.

True. Partly money, partly hc bias maybe?

alfonsojose
04-16-2007, 02:32 PM
1) no back to back AMS
2) byes for top 8 seeds in all AMS
3) No 128 draw events. That's for slams
4) top 8 seed who lost in first round MUST play doubles with a local tennis talent. If any of them loses, the highest ranked 1st round loser takes that place

nobama
04-16-2007, 02:35 PM
I don't care. If not for the women, scrap it for the men.Because? I don't see the top guys skipping it. If they really wanted any of the North American masters to go then they should not play them. The ultimate statement would be to not show up. But last time I checked they all show up and play.

I would say scrap Paris. They have a slam, most years the tournament is plagued by top players pulling out. But I'm sure someone else would come here and list all the reasons why Paris should stay. And I'm sure that would be the same for most events on the calender.

Kitty de Sade
04-16-2007, 02:37 PM
Good to see them in agreement on the important issues. Clearly there is a divide between where management and talent are coming from right now. I wish them both luck in making the necessary stand to take some player power back. :yeah:

scoobs
04-16-2007, 02:40 PM
The reason the Americans don't play Monte Carlo is because there's a two week break after it between it and Rome - which is then 3 weeks they can spend in the States.

You have to bear in mind most Americans these days don't care for the clay and don't do well on it, and have a quite defeatist attitude about it.

For them, the problem is coming to play on a surface they don't like much, yes - but compounded with them having to spend from mid April right through to mid July in Europe through the flurry of 3 TMS events, Roland Garros and then Wimbledon almost immediately after. It's a full 3 month stint away from home and they don't like it. So they choose to wait 3 weeks and come over for Rome and stay through Wimbledon.

Some of the Americans signed the petition not to downgrade Monte-Carlo - I heard Roddick was one. Their problem is not with the tournament, just that where it is in the calendar means they have to spend too much time away from home if they play it.

mangoes
04-16-2007, 02:45 PM
I don't agree with downgrading MC, but why does one of the North American masters need to be touched. Both IW and Miami had record crowds this year. In fact I believe IW is just behind the slams in terms of attendance. And apparently Cincy has a long history and is one of the oldest events in North America.

.

Most of these masters have long histories. But, obviously, some have to be downgraded. IW may have had record crowds this year.......but I'd like to know what the revenue statements are for IW. A few years ago, they were losing money. And, while attendance may have been up this year for IW, when comparing it to Miami, its attendance is quite pathetic.

I do think there needs to be some fair balance. If a clay masters tournament will be downgraded, either IW or Cincy needs to be downgraded as well.....as well as Paris, imo.

scoobs
04-16-2007, 02:45 PM
The North American tournaments don't need to be touched - they're big, successful events and their place in the calendar is fine (albeit the need to put a week between Canada and Cincy)

Also they follow the current flow of the season well enough - there are 3 American indoor or outdoor hardcourt events prior to IW and Miami in February, at the time when the tour splits into three and there's the SA clay, American indoor and Europe indoor legs. Toronto and Cincy naturally come before the US Open. These events are in the right place and near enough the right time - downgrading one of these highly successful events out of some weird sense of balance would be perverse.

Personally I don't have a problem with losing 1 clay TMS - having 2 before Roland Garros is enough. 3 feels like overkill, not just for the players. It's just a shame one has to be Monte Carlo, in favour of a brand-new, untested event.

vamosnadal
04-16-2007, 02:46 PM
As far as Blake & Roddick playing MC, the Bryan Brothers don't seem to have a problem playing Houston and MC so I think they should make an effort to play there. I don't buy this 'it's too long to be on the road crap'. It's not like they're the only ones to spend a lot of time away from home.

Roddick and Blake choose to play Houston as it gives them practise on clay in a home tournament that has a significantly weaker field. Even if Monte Carlo was a week later, they would still probably choose exactly the same schedule. However, they should be making an effort to play the masters rather than Houston, as all top players have a reponsibility to enter the top tournaments unless they have a valid reason to withdraw. Wanting to play a home tournament would never qualify as an excuse as they have just had two major US tournaments back to back and have many others in the year. The Europeans have to do a lot more travelling.

I don't want to have a go at the US players, but their constant no shows are an issue here. They are a big draw for US audiences and television coverage which brings significant revenue to tennis - if they are constantly not showing up to a certain tournament it will subsequently affect the position of that tournament and the point is they are not turning up simply because they are not good and don't care about clay. Unfortunately - there are many players who do care and rely upon the surface.

All of that said though - the main reason there is a problem here is Devilliers and his constant crusade for change.

scoobs
04-16-2007, 02:46 PM
Most of these masters have long histories. But, obviously, some have to be downgraded. IW may have had record crowds this year.......but I'd like to know what the revenue statements are for IW. A few years ago, they were losing money. And, while attendance may have been up this year for IW, when comparing it to Miami, its attendance is quite pathetic.

I do think there needs to be some fair balance. If a clay masters tournament will be downgraded, either IW or Cincy needs to be downgraded as well.....as well as Paris, imo.
Attendance at IW is far higher than Miami - it's the most attended tournament outside the slams.

The reason IW had financial problems the other years were down to issues with the costs of building the new facilities there, nothing to do with fan attendance levels.

uglyamerican
04-16-2007, 02:50 PM
The reason the Americans don't play Monte Carlo is because there's a two week break after it between it and Rome - which is then 3 weeks they can spend in the States.

You have to bear in mind most Americans these days don't care for the clay and don't do well on it, and have a quite defeatist attitude about it.


Even the Americans that were good on clay skipped Monte Carlo. Chang only played there once in the 90's. Courier skipped it half the time. Agassi only played there 4 times.

The rest of your argument makes sense.


It's also American based players who don't come to Monte Carlo. Haas has skipped 4 of the last 5 years. Grosjean dropped out in '03 and '05.

scoobs
04-16-2007, 02:59 PM
Even the Americans that were good on clay skipped Monte Carlo. Chang only played there once in the 90's. Courier skipped it half the time. Agassi only played there 4 times.

The rest of your argument makes sense.


It's also American based players who don't come to Monte Carlo. Haas has skipped 4 of the last 5 years. Grosjean dropped out in '03 and '05.
I think the same argument stands.

Personally I think three major clay events then a slam in the space of 2 months is slightly overdoing it and I wouldn't be surprised if the Americans thought so too - they certainly didn't want to venture over to Europe too soon.

tangerine_dream
04-16-2007, 03:04 PM
Things are coming to a head now with Roger and Rafa publicly screaming for help. I'm glad they're taking a stronger stand now. They gave ET time to adjust to his role and try out his new experiments but now it appears he's not really listening to anyone, just doing his own thing to the detriment of the game.

And Davydenko needs to shut his trap. :rolleyes: This idiot plays all the third tier tournaments to get an easy win then bags on them in press conferences. Ass.

Look personally I think that the Amercians don't play there because they know they suck at clay and they would like to avoid it as much as possible, plus it's to close to their beloved Houston tournament.
Please don't speak on subjects you know nothing about. If the Americans skip MC because "they suck on clay" then why wouldn't they just skip all of the clay court tournaments leading up to RG, in particular that mud dump known as Hamburg?

I don't want to have a go at the US players, but their constant no shows are an issue here.
I have to wonder why that is? The American-haters here are constantly saying what clowns they are on clay, so why would it suddenly matter to them whether Blake/Roddick/et al show up to play on this one clay tournament or not?

and the point is they are not turning up simply because they are not good and don't care about clay.
Again, if they didn't truly care about clay then why do they bother showing up to play on the other clay tournaments? It never occurs to any of you that Blake is stating a simple fact: MC is scheduled badly for the Americans and they're not ready to make the trip to Europe yet. It's really no different than many Europeans and South Americans skipping out on several North American hardcourt tournaments during the summer.

Btw, it was Roddick who signed the dirtballer's petition not to downgrade MC. So much for not caring.

Deboogle!.
04-16-2007, 03:06 PM
Some of the Americans signed the petition not to downgrade Monte-Carlo - I heard Roddick was one. Their problem is not with the tournament, just that where it is in the calendar means they have to spend too much time away from home if they play it.Yes, he WAS one of them, so let's direct the bashing where it needs to be, okay? :rolleyes:

As for comparing the grind of singles to the physicality required for doubles, that's laughable. Not only are the matches way shorter now, but the players play fewer matches.

:yawn:

Isn't this about the ATP and what's happening with tennis? The Americans skipping Monte Carlo have nothing to do with this. So how about, for once, people put the pettiness aside and since we all mostly agree with the ATP stuff anyway, can't we band together and support the players in their fight? Just this one time? Is that really too much to ask?

mangoes
04-16-2007, 03:09 PM
Attendance at IW is far higher than Miami - it's the most attended tournament outside the slams.

The reason IW had financial problems the other years were down to issues with the costs of building the new facilities there, nothing to do with fan attendance levels.


I'll have to take the time and research this.

But, I am still of the same opinion, a North American masters tournament needs to go. I do think one from clay needs to go along with Paris.

CyBorg
04-16-2007, 03:10 PM
Miami's all right - scrap Indian Wells. It's in a desert for God's sake. At least Miami has an adequate women's event, unlike IW. Anyhow, 2 big events like that in 2 consecutive weeks is just silly.

Neither will be scrapped. They're making very, very good money and, let's face it, these events are supremely organized. It's very hard to justify axing them. Unlike Hamburg.

t0x
04-16-2007, 03:10 PM
Good for Fed and Rafa to speak up about this...

However, something will have to budge. They want a shorter calendar, but they don't want events cut?

From what I can see, Hamburg, Canada and Paris are the ones that make the most sense to remove. Obviously whatever way you look at it, some people will be pissed off - but getting rid of the back to back masters would stop withdrawals a lot.

CyBorg
04-16-2007, 03:12 PM
I don't get this deVilliers caters to American players crap. He's not American, he doesn't office out of the USA. Why would he chose to play favorites with Roddick and Blake. :confused:

As far as MC not being popular because some US players choose not to show up....well that's :retard:

He worked with the Walt Disney company. He's spent most of his life brownnosing the Americans.

scoobs
04-16-2007, 03:13 PM
Neither will be scrapped. They're making very, very good money and, let's face it, these events are supremely organized. It's very hard to justify axing them. Unlike Hamburg.
Whatever else happens with the ATP, the WTA event at Indian Wells will be mandatory from 2009 for the women too (though what the Williams sisters will do about that is still unclear)

ezekiel
04-16-2007, 03:14 PM
I, personally, don't like that statement from Davy about Americans.

Nevertheless, I must agree with them that it's ridiculous that none of the American masters are being touched...........specifically IW or Cincy. I also find it very hard to believe that IW is profitable. If IW were not owned by Sampras and the lot, more consideration would have been given into downgrading it.

Andy and Blake are playing Houston the week prior to MC. It's hard for them to make the transition. If anything Mr. Disney should consider cutting or merging that joke of a tournament, Houston, so that everyone is able to make it to MC.

Indian Wells is very profitable, the only masters over 300k visitors
http://www.thedesertsun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070320/EVENTS10/703200330/-1/NLETTER10

The problematic masters are Monte Carlo , Hamburg and Paris due to sheduling where a lot of players don't show up and Cincinnati which is just too bland of a location for Masters

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 03:15 PM
Attendance at IW is far higher than Miami - it's the most attended tournament outside the slams.

The reason IW had financial problems the other years were down to issues with the costs of building the new facilities there, nothing to do with fan attendance levels.

What does that mean -- "attendance is higher"? Apart from the obvious, is it because it has bigger stadiums than the other Masters?
Or do you mean they are sold out more than the other Masters?
These are two very different things and one does not support the argument that it is the basis for IW staying.

ezekiel
04-16-2007, 03:17 PM
Is anybody concerned that Federer is making up a reputation as a conservative whiner?
He was also adamant against instant replay system which proved to be an enormous success and I might say long time overdue

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 03:17 PM
Great to see the unity between the players. When ATP is not supported by the people it represents, they really have a big problem on their hands.

This is the best thing that Federer and Nadal have ever done with their No.1 and No.2 positions. Take a stand when it counts.

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 03:18 PM
Is anybody concerned that Federer is making up a reputation as a conservative whiner?
He was also adamant against instant replay system which proved to be an enormous success and I might say long time overdue

I am sure there are people gravely concerned (like you).

What about Round Robin? He was whining against that too. That too proved a great success.

ezekiel
04-16-2007, 03:23 PM
I am sure there are people gravely concerned (like you).

What about Round Robin? He was whining against that too. That too proved a great success.

of course and he was right there but it just seems like he is against any new ideas , anything new to promote and improve the game

mangoes
04-16-2007, 03:23 PM
Is anybody concerned that Federer is making up a reputation as a conservative whiner?
He was also adamant against instant replay system which proved to be an enormous success and I might say long time overdue

No need for the Federer bashing:rolleyes: ......especially when considering your favorite player's reputation.



There really is no winning in this situation. Some are going to be happy, and some are going to be disappointed.

mangoes
04-16-2007, 03:25 PM
I'm just wondering............have any of these guys suggested which tournaments should be downgraded??

Rafa = Fed Killa
04-16-2007, 03:26 PM
Axe Hamburg and Paris.
Most top players don't even show up there.

MC should stay as the best players (not including the home sick :rolleyes: Americans) play in it.

Merton
04-16-2007, 03:26 PM
The problem with the "do it, try it, fix it" approach is that, if "trying it" does not work, you cannot always return to the situation before "trying it". Here, once you downgrade Monte Carlo and Hamburg and install Madrid, it will not be possible to go back to the previous status in case it turns out that overall profits are smaller. Installing Madrid might also possibly affect Barcelona.

I am glad that the players speak lound here but I think that Mr. Disney would be much more concerned if Monte Carlo made it known that the ATP would no longer be welcome in the principality in case their tournament gets downgraded. It would be a marginal loss for the Monegasques but a big hit for the ATP.

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 03:30 PM
Axe Hamburg and Paris.
Most top players don't even show up there.

MC should stay as the best players (not including the home sick :rolleyes: Americans) play in it.

Well, MC is the first big tournament in the clay swing. That might be, in part, a reason why everyone shows up there. By the time Hamburg rolls around, there is enough fatigue, many who go deep in the prior ones are injured or just want to rest, and there is the difference in surface relative to RG.
They could try making Hamburg first in one year and see if that changes tournament participation.

nobama
04-16-2007, 03:40 PM
Neither will be scrapped. They're making very, very good money and, let's face it, these events are supremely organized. It's very hard to justify axing them. Unlike Hamburg.I understand Ljubicic (and others) frustration about guys not showing up for Monte Carlo, but everyone making an effort to play IW and Miami. But there are ways to address that issue without downgrading/scraping events. And as I said before I really don't believe they decided to downgrade Monte Carlo because Blake and Roddick choose not to play it.

nobama
04-16-2007, 03:43 PM
I'm just wondering............have any of these guys suggested which tournaments should be downgraded??Not that I'm aware of, other than Ljubicic and Davydenko complaining about nothing in North America being on the chopping block.

nobama
04-16-2007, 03:50 PM
Yes, he WAS one of them, so let's direct the bashing where it needs to be, okay? :rolleyes:

As for comparing the grind of singles to the physicality required for doubles, that's laughable. Not only are the matches way shorter now, but the players play fewer matches.

:yawn:

Isn't this about the ATP and what's happening with tennis? The Americans skipping Monte Carlo have nothing to do with this. So how about, for once, people put the pettiness aside and since we all mostly agree with the ATP stuff anyway, can't we band together and support the players in their fight? Just this one time? Is that really too much to ask?I still think the American guys should show up in Monte Carlo. I can't believe that Blake is too exhausted right now to play there. Plus MC is probably the best prep for RG. But you're right, the issue is with deVillers and the ATP and the top players should be commended for finally speaking out.

uglyamerican
04-16-2007, 03:51 PM
Axe Hamburg and Paris.
Most top players don't even show up there.

MC should stay as the best players (not including the home sick :rolleyes: Americans) play in it.


I don't know that this is true. The following is the rank of the last seeded player at MC and Hamburg since 2000:

2006
MC 25th
Hamburg 19th (2 seeds withdrew late)

2005
MC 24th
Hamburg 17th (2 seeds withdrew late)

2004
MC 19th
Hamburg 19th

2003
MC 25th
Hamburg 22nd

2002
MC 21st
Hamburg 18th

2001
MC 22nd
Hamburg 18th

2000
MC 22nd
Hamburg 19th

mangoes
04-16-2007, 03:52 PM
Not that I'm aware of, other than Ljubicic and Davydenko complaining about nothing in North America being on the chopping block.

Since they are complaining that their voices aren't being heard........offer up a solution. Or do they just not want any tournment to be cut and a masters in Asia added? If this is done, they will then start to complain about the expansion of the season.

Quite frankly, it seems to me that the officials in MC have pulled the players into this as a strategy in keeping their tournament from being downgraded.

bokehlicious
04-16-2007, 04:00 PM
No need for the Federer bashing:rolleyes: ......especially when considering your favorite player's reputation.

Ezekiel's a tool and you won't see his pathetic gloatings anymore as soon as his joker gets back to the place he really belongs... He'll let Roger alone then... :zzz:

nobama
04-16-2007, 04:00 PM
Most of these masters have long histories. But, obviously, some have to be downgraded. IW may have had record crowds this year.......but I'd like to know what the revenue statements are for IW. A few years ago, they were losing money. And, while attendance may have been up this year for IW, when comparing it to Miami, its attendance is quite pathetic.Um, I think IW has equal or higher attendnce figures than Miami (of course the main stadium is a bit larger too). The total attendance for IW this year was 303,398. 2006 was ~270,000, but the weather there sucked that year. The Miami site doesn't have figures for 2007 yet but total attendance in 2006 was 272,033 - a tournament record.

scoobs
04-16-2007, 04:02 PM
Changes do need to be made but I'd much prefer to see it happen a bit more organically over a longer period of time rather than trying to implement a huge checklist of things in one go and creating who knows what impact.

alelysafina
04-16-2007, 04:03 PM
Please don't speak on subjects you know nothing about. If the Americans skip MC because "they suck on clay" then why wouldn't they just skip all of the clay court tournaments leading up to RG, in particular that mud dump known as Hamburg?



Your right, I shouldn't have just pin pointed it to that, everyone also know that the Americans don't like to be gone for too long from home soil and adding Monte Carlo would just add another three weeks in Europe. They should just suck it up! They're tennis players, they're job iconsists of travel and tennis. How do they think that the Europeans feel about having to spend 5 weeks in the US at the beginning of the year and then another 7 towards the end of the year? Everyone deals with it, not just the Americans.

Deboogle!.
04-16-2007, 04:03 PM
I still think the American guys should show up in Monte Carlo. I can't believe that Blake is too exhausted right now to play there. Plus MC is probably the best prep for RG. But you're right, the issue is with deVillers and the ATP and the top players should be commended for finally speaking out.I just think it's a discussion for another thread (a discussion which, btw, has been had on this board ad nauseum). Andy signed the petition, he spoke out voraciously against RR. That's all that should matter for this thread. But no, people still need to bitch. It'd just be nice if this would be the one thing people could put all that shit aside. Even people who don't like him or the Americans could see that he's on the same side as everyone else, he loves the sport too, believe it or not. I just fail to see the need to attack players who are standing right along with Fed and Rafa on this, it really seems counterproductive.Your right, I shouldn't have just pin pointed it to that, everyone also know that the Americans don't like to be gone for too long from home soil and adding Monte Carlo would just add another three weeks in Europe. They should just suck it up! They're tennis players, they're job is nothing but travel. How do they think that the Europeans feel about having to spend 5 weeks in the US at the beginning of the year and then another 7 towards the end of the year? Everyone deals with, not just the Americans.Seriously, does any of this matter for the issues with the ATP? Anyone who think MC was chopped b/c the Americans don't play is seriously just looking for a conspiracy theory here. That's ridiculous (especially considering the top American signed the petition to save the tournament). Look Andy played MC earlier in his career. He doesn't now. He obviously has a reason for changing his schedule. Can't we just leave it at that for purposes of this thread?

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 04:07 PM
Um, I think IW has equal or higher attendnce figures than Miami (of course the main stadium is a bit larger too). The total attendance for IW this year was 303,398. 2006 was ~270,000, but the weather there sucked that year. The Miami site doesn't have figures for 2007 yet but total attendance in 2006 was 272,033 - a tournament record.

IW -- Main stadium 16100 seating capacity
Miami -- Main stadium 13300 seating capacity

Miami is 17% smaller than IW. EVEN if you use 2006 figures for Miami (which assumed that attendance did NOT go up this year), and 2007 figures for IW, Miami was only 10% smaller attendance than IW despite having 17% smaller seating capacity.

So I don't think the argument of "biggest attendance" works here necessarily.

nobama
04-16-2007, 04:08 PM
Again, if they didn't truly care about clay then why do they bother showing up to play on the other clay tournaments? It never occurs to any of you that Blake is stating a simple fact: MC is scheduled badly for the Americans and they're not ready to make the trip to Europe yet. It's really no different than many Europeans and South Americans skipping out on several North American hardcourt tournaments during the summer.

Btw, it was Roddick who signed the dirtballer's petition not to downgrade MC. So much for not caring.Well there is a difference between a Masters event and say, the Countrywide Classic or the event in Indy. I'm not aware of too many guys that skip Canada and/or Cincy. Of course those events aren't scheuled right after Wimbledon.

But I don't think Roddick and Blake are that powerful that they can cause a Masters event on clay to be downgraded just because they don't play it. :lol:

scoobs
04-16-2007, 04:09 PM
IW -- Main stadium 16100 seating capacity
Miami -- Main stadium 13300 seating capacity

Miami is 17% smaller than IW. EVEN if you use 2006 figures for Miami (which assumed that attendance did NOT go up this year), and 2007 figures for IW, Miami was only 10% smaller attendance than IW despite having 17% smaller seating capacity.

So I don't think the argument of "biggest attendance" works here necessarily.
All of which is fairly irrelevant - they are still big, well attended and successful tournaments.

Deboogle!.
04-16-2007, 04:11 PM
IW -- Main stadium 16100 seating capacity
Miami -- Main stadium 13300 seating capacity

Miami is 17% smaller than IW. EVEN if you use 2006 figures for Miami (which assumed that attendance did NOT go up this year), and 2007 figures for IW, Miami was only 10% smaller attendance than IW despite having 17% smaller seating capacity.

So I don't think the argument of "biggest attendance" works here necessarily.I don't think the brute numbers really even matter. The events are both financially successful, and at the end of the day I imagine that's all that matters to the ATP.
But I don't think Roddick and Blake are that powerful that they can cause a Masters event on clay to be downgraded just because they don't play it. :lol:They didn't even try to, in fact it was quite the opposite. So that whole argument is completely nonsensical ;) It's hard to argue with a straight face that they are doing this for the Americans when the Americans are part of the coalition to try to save the event:lol: That doesn't really make sense.

*Ljubica*
04-16-2007, 04:19 PM
Even the Americans that were good on clay skipped Monte Carlo. Chang only played there once in the 90's. Courier skipped it half the time. Agassi only played there 4 times.

The rest of your argument makes sense.


It's also American based players who don't come to Monte Carlo. Haas has skipped 4 of the last 5 years. Grosjean dropped out in '03 and '05.

Ok - it really isn't rocket science to work it out. The European season is actually quite long - starting in mid-April and going on til early July if you do well at Wimbledon. During that 3 month period, it is geographically and financially difficult for the US players to get home to see their families etc, so they tend to skip Monte Carlo to have a few extra weeks at home. I guess a lot of them dislike our life here in Europe, as much as many Europeans dislike being in the States for an extended period of time. There is a big cultural difference - it is not "home" for them, and I can understand them skipping MC, especially as they probably know they won't earn that many points there. it is the same argument that means the majority of European players prefer playing in Bastad/Umag/Stuttgart etc instead of the US tourneys in the Summer. That way they only have to spend about 4 weeks in the States, they are in their own time zone, and can get home in an hour or so if they lose in the first round.

Of course the players generally turn up in Hamburg and Rome, - they are much closer to Roland Garros, and unless they are injured, most players will take part in all the Grand Slams and want some preparation first. I'm sure if MC was in Hamburg's slot in the calendar then EVERYONE would play there. And I don't know about Haas (apart from the fact he seems often to have injuries), but Grosjean certainly had personal issues at one stage that kept him off the tour in 2005.

Anyway - back to topic - good to see Federer and Nadal standing together,

CyBorg
04-16-2007, 04:20 PM
I understand Ljubicic (and others) frustration about guys not showing up for Monte Carlo, but everyone making an effort to play IW and Miami. But there are ways to address that issue without downgrading/scraping events. And as I said before I really don't believe they decided to downgrade Monte Carlo because Blake and Roddick choose not to play it.

Everyone chooses to play in IW and Miami because it is played on a neutral surface - hardcourts. The Miami hardcourts are especially bouncy making it attractive to players of all sorts - claycourters, hardcourters, big servers and to some extent volleyers.

Clay is not like that. Glass is not like that either. That doesn't mean that all tournaments should go to hard courts now. Especially considering all the injuries that hardcourts cause.

I don't understand why you keep repeating that last line - I made a clear response in relation to the issue raised by another poster as per Roddick and Blake. And as for whether American participation does have an impact as to Monte Carlo is hard to say. I think that this played a certain factor in De Villiers' decision, but I'd be hard pressed to peg it as a direct cause.

Merton
04-16-2007, 04:20 PM
Amreicans have nothing to do with the whole issue, I bet that their absence is not crucial to the tournament. Sure, they would prefer to have them there, but it is not the case that if the Americans don't play Monte Carlo will suffer.

The issue here is restructuring the entire season. The ATP instead opts for a change in the clay court seasonthat benefits a certain organizer (Tiriac), hurts others, and it is not obvious that will be of net benefit financially.

amierin
04-16-2007, 04:21 PM
I'd like to know which Americans other than Andy signed the petition. Does anyone know?

CyBorg
04-16-2007, 04:22 PM
I don't know that this is true. The following is the rank of the last seeded player at MC and Hamburg since 2000

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Castafiore
04-16-2007, 04:24 PM
One of the reasons of the ATP big guys for trying to change some things around is to try and get the top players to commit to the Masters Series events and not drop out for any other reason than an injury. Right?

Whether you personally agree with it is another matter but I do think that it's not off topic to discuss why so many Americans don't come over sooner for this obligatory event in Monte Carlo (and no, I'm not bashing Americans. I'm just asking).
Saying that it's tough for them to stay away from their home country for such a long period is a valid argument perhaps but the same applies to South-Americans, Europeans, Aussies,... during other parts of the season. One of the reasons why many Europeans don't show up for the US Open Series is probably also because they want to spend at least one summer month close at home but many of them do come over to the TMS events in Canada and in the US followed by the US Open and then they often go off to Asia,... for hardcourt events there. And if they don't show up in one of the N-American TMS events for any other reason than an injury, they also get criticized for it on MTF (so, IMHO, it has less to do with American bashing but it's a general complaint).

However, I agree that Roddick & co are not the bad guys in this either. I can't really blame him for wanting to spend more time closer at home. Roddick was indeed reported as being one of the players who signed the petition.

I also don't think that you can make the point that they're doing this to please American players but the argument has been made (in some other article, in some other thread) that the ATP is planning to go where the money is and that's when people bring up the figures of record sales, attendances,...
Being financially secure isn't good enough, the history of a tournament is just sentimental stuff for some, ...."show me the money" is where it's at IMHO.

Playing on a clay court takes some adjustment, esp. if you're not grown up on it. The movement on clay is so different than on hard courts. You can learn how to slide but you also have to get your timing right. That's hard to do if you spend only 3 tournaments or so on the European red clay.
However, saying that hard court is a neutral surface is not totally right either. Sure, the courts in Miami is more bouncy perhaps but the same argument holds: the movement is different. Claycourters have more opportunities on it but they still require adapting because you can't move on it like on a clay court. I don't really think that there's truly one neutral surface really.


The reason for bringing up the N-American events is not to bash the Americans (at least, not in most cases) but because when talking about rescheduling, all the plans for downgrading have been made in Europe and nothing in North-America? Why? Money. Forget the sentimental stuff, they say. See the record attendances in Indian Wells? Monte Carlo can't compete with that so deal with it.
However, Monte Carlo poses no problem at all since it's popular with most top players, it's loved by the public and it's financially secure.

guga2120
04-16-2007, 04:30 PM
so glad there sticking up for Monte Carlo, has always been my favorite Master Series.

CyBorg
04-16-2007, 04:31 PM
Being financially secure isn't good enough, the history of a tournament is just sentimental stuff for some, ...."show me the money" is where it's at IMHO.


This makes sense, HOWEVER in the case of Monte Carlo we have a tournament that has history in its favour and it draws good crowds. It makes profits - it is not a lame duck tournament.

I don't know if De Villiers is trying to spin this to sound like Monte Carlo is losing money. It isn't

cobalt60
04-16-2007, 04:31 PM
Amreicans have nothing to do with the whole issue, I bet that their absence is not crucial to the tournament. Sure, they would prefer to have them there, but it is not the case that if the Americans don't play Monte Carlo will suffer.

The issue here is restructuring the entire season. The ATP instead opts for a change in the clay court seasonthat benefits a certain organizer (Tiriac), hurts others, and it is not obvious that will be of net benefit financially.

Thanks for making sense :yeah:

Merton
04-16-2007, 04:36 PM
This makes sense, HOWEVER in the case of Monte Carlo we have a tournament that has history in its favour and it draws good crowds. It makes profits - it is not a lame duck tournament.

I don't know if De Villiers is trying to spin this to sound like Monte Carlo is losing money. It isn't

I agree, I have yet to see a specific analysis as to why downgrading Monte Carlo will be of net financial benefit to the ATP.

tangerine_dream
04-16-2007, 04:36 PM
Everyone deals with it, not just the Americans.
I agree, and I think all players are entitled to a little downtime before making the trip overseas to stay for several weeks. If that means skipping a TMC or a few smaller hardcourt tournaments, so be it.

I just don't understand why there's always so much phony outrage on MTF every year when word gets out that the clay clown Americans will be skipping MC again (as they always do). Seriously, why do people care so much? It would be nice to have them but I doubt their absence affects ratings or attendance much.

Seriously, does any of this matter for the issues with the ATP? Anyone who think MC was chopped b/c the Americans don't play is seriously just looking for a conspiracy theory here. That's ridiculous (especially considering the top American signed the petition to save the tournament)....So that whole argument is completely nonsensical ;) It's hard to argue with a straight face that they are doing this for the Americans when the Americans are part of the coalition to try to save the event:lol: That doesn't really make sense.
:lol: I know, right? That anyone could believe how these two guys alone (Blake and Roddick) could be personally responsible for downgrading a beloved European clay tournament? :retard: :cuckoo: I had NO idea just how much influence they had with Mr DeVillan. I thought it was Roger who got all the panicky late-night calls.

CyBorg
04-16-2007, 04:38 PM
Amreicans have nothing to do with the whole issue, I bet that their absence is not crucial to the tournament.

It has something to do with the issue, even if it isn't the central issue.

De Villiers has been toying with the idea of limiting the number of masters series by one and making appearances in them mandatory. Hence he is definitely unhappy with the fact that Americans are not participating consistently in European tourneys like Monte Carlo.

Downgrading Monte Carlo and having a clay series in Madrid is his idea of creating a 'super' event of sorts - a Miami on clay. Not only would it please Tiriac, but it would take place in the supposed haven of clay court tennis. By this virtue his utopian idea is that players would want to go there because it would be prestigious and unmissable.

He has big ideas - ambitious ideas. But he's stupid. He thinks he can build a golden city without taking all of the necessary steps in getting to an efficient, reasonable goal. It's like going to war in Iraq while ignoring the United Nations.

Truly the dream of an idiot.

Castafiore
04-16-2007, 04:46 PM
I just don't understand why there's always so much phony outrage on MTF every year when word gets out that the clay clown Americans will be skipping MC again (as they always do).

The outrage also exist in the other way. Don't you think?
It's not only about Americans.
If a group of top European players decide to skip the TMS events in Canada and/or in the US for several years in a row, you would see a similar sort of outrage.
There's been quite an outrage when several top players have skipped the Bercy TMS event for a few years now so, I don't think that it's totally fair to reduce this to "oh, it's American bashing again".

tangerine_dream
04-16-2007, 04:52 PM
The outrage also exist in the other way. Don't you think?
It's not only about Americans.
If a group of top European players decide to skip the TMS events in Canada and/or in the US for several years on a row, you would see a similar sort of outrage.
That's what I've been saying. I think the rule is that players are allowed to skip one MC, yes? Cincy is the TMC that most of the non-Americans skip, and that's ok.

Castafiore
04-16-2007, 05:00 PM
That's what I've been saying. I think the rule is that players are allowed to skip one MC, yes?
I don't know if that's a rule but I can certainly understand that some like to skip some of the big events for various reasons.

Cincy is the TMC that most of the non-Americans skip, and that's ok.
Cincy follows after the Masters event in Canada (back-to-back) so most of the players are in N-America anyway. I think that some players skip it because when they went deep into the draw in the Canadian TMS and they then go full throttle in Cincy, they could overdo it for the US Open.
I don't think that they skip it to stay longer at home or close to home.

2moretogo
04-16-2007, 06:04 PM
This is a nightmare. With all sides culpable. The problem is that no side at this point is willing to work with each other, and now the players (and I think ultimately to their detriment- I'm thinking post DeVillers) are weighing in.

The issue really is the inflexibility of European tournaments (and the schedule in general), particularly the slams. Everyone is screaming that the schedule needs to be shortened, but no one wants to give anything/compromise.

The USO series / and IW and Miami are not the issue here oustide of principle. They are scheduled at appropriate times of the year, outside of Cincy/Canada, and have banded together with other smaller tournaments and USO to create a series that is profitable for the players, TDs, ITF, and ATP.

As far as IW/Miami, they aren't going anywhere either. IW cottled to the ATP and WTA who told them to upgrade the site, and to build newer facilities. IW lost a lot of money initially on the gamble. But the gamble paid off. Miami is considered the 5 grand slam, so whether or not it has a long tradition, it has eclipsed events with greater tradition.

I have yet to see FO or Wimby take a serious interest in the plight of clay of or grass tournaments. Or a group of clay tournaments take an interest in banding together and attempting to make something work. Perhaps, it is the personality differences between the TDs of the events, but what has resulted is a system of whomever is the teacher's favorite gets all of the perks and and the others are left out. But this is scarilege I know. Noone is culpable for anything except DeVillian.

Addressing what has been said, I think it would be a shame to see both Hamburg and MC get downgraded. One needs to be downgraded/ or possibility revamped at a different time of year with a different surface.

The thing that rubs me the wrong way, is that DeVillian and the ATP board, do not seem to be thinking most of these decisions through at all.

Sidebar: I was under the impression that Hamburg and Paris were asked to move but both declined the offer? Is there any truth to this statement? Thanks.

nobama
04-16-2007, 06:12 PM
I have yet to see FO or Wimby take a serious interest in the plight of clay of or grass tournaments. Or a group of clay tournaments take an interest in banding together and attempting to make something work. Perhaps, it is the personality differences between the TDs of the events, but what has resulted is a system of whomever is the teacher's favorite gets all of the perks and and the others are left out. But this is scarilege I know. Noone is culpable for anything except DeVillian.
Thanks.You bring up a good point here.

nobama
04-16-2007, 06:18 PM
IW -- Main stadium 16100 seating capacity
Miami -- Main stadium 13300 seating capacity

Miami is 17% smaller than IW. EVEN if you use 2006 figures for Miami (which assumed that attendance did NOT go up this year), and 2007 figures for IW, Miami was only 10% smaller attendance than IW despite having 17% smaller seating capacity.

So I don't think the argument of "biggest attendance" works here necessarily.I said in another thread that the main stadium in IW was larger than Miami. But in terms of pure numbers IW right behind the slams. Anyway my point is both events are well organized and well attended so to downgrade or nix one of them just to be "fair" is stupid.

nobama
04-16-2007, 06:24 PM
I don't think the brute numbers really even matter. The events are both financially successful, and at the end of the day I imagine that's all that matters to the ATP.
They didn't even try to, in fact it was quite the opposite. So that whole argument is completely nonsensical ;) It's hard to argue with a straight face that they are doing this for the Americans when the Americans are part of the coalition to try to save the event:lol: That doesn't really make sense.This discussion always seems to turn anti-American with some. It's a shame players like Davydekno and Ljubicic have join in. Had they spared MC and Hamburg and went after one of the North American events instead would that really be fair? Europe already has 1 more MS event than North America, plus 2 slams.

Castafiore
04-16-2007, 06:47 PM
This discussion always seems to turn anti-American with some. It's a shame players like Davydekno and Ljubicic have join in.A discussion like this always seems to turn into defensive pro-American for others.:shrug:

How is Ljubicic anti-American in what he said? Sorry, maybe I missed something.
How is pointing to the fact that all of the downgrading is being done in Europe and none of it is being done in N-America (even though the schedule over there is not exactly perfect either) anti-American?


The point has been made, I think (excellently by J'Torian). Could we move on from the pro- vs anti-America?

RonE
04-16-2007, 06:54 PM
Well it sounds like the big boys brought out the heavy artillery :yeah:

This will have a huge impact, and would be even bigger if even more of the high profile players chipped in their two cents.

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 06:56 PM
This discussion always seems to turn anti-American with some. It's a shame players like Davydekno and Ljubicic have join in. Had they spared MC and Hamburg and went after one of the North American events instead would that really be fair? Europe already has 1 more MS event than North America, plus 2 slams.

Well, you are lumping together many many nations in Europe versus 2 in North America. Is that fair?
It's not like America has a bigger representation of top players in the ATP. And no one knows if it also brings in more revenue to the ATP than does the rest of the nations' tournaments. So it's not like Ljubicic/ND/others do not have any point at all.

MC has had problems financially in the past, but Hamburg has not to the best of anyone's knowledge. There ought to be an explanation of how tournaments were chosen to be axed.

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 07:02 PM
It's hard to argue with a straight face that they are doing this for the Americans when the Americans are part of the coalition to try to save the event:lol: That doesn't really make sense.

I don't think ATP is bending over for the American players, but they are an America-based organization and they are certainly bending for American tournaments.

They should just come out and say - we are all about bottomline and that's why MC is going. But to say you know, it's because of schedule shorten, this, that, and then axe MC instead of a tournament in North American when the TMS are much more represented in the US than any other single place, it certainly leaves the impression that there is strong pressure from the US based tournaments.

Allez
04-16-2007, 07:11 PM
Wow! Davydenko is as undiplomatic as ever :lol: The only American tournament which needs to be scrapped is Houston. They can the downgrade Hamburg (unfortunately) and make scheduling changes to MC and Rome to allow American players some time to spend home before coming to Europe for clay and grass. That's not too much sacrifice. That gives us two Masters before RG. The clay court specialists can't complain about that especially seeing that there are no plans of upgrading any of the pre Wimbledon grass court tournaments into a Masters status. It's silly to even contemplate downgrading IW or Miami given how huge they are. Cincy and Canada should stay as well for the same reasons.

I don't get the need for Paris, but if the sole reason of downgrading one Masters tourney is to upgrade Shanghai, then downgrading Humburg should be enough to achieve that goal. That is not an unreasonable change and I'd be shocked if players are very unhappy with that. Monte Carlo needs to stay though. As to the changes to the ranking points allocated to TMS events, well as long as the slams get double the ranking points I do not think it's that bad an idea. It gives loads of top players who haven't done well during the year an incentive to play in Madrid and Paris. The problem is that everything's happening at once and in a dictatorial fashion and that is why certainly Rogi and Rafa are unhappy. I'm not sure about Davydenko though :rolleyes:

TenHound
04-16-2007, 07:16 PM
2 Thoughts:

1) No-Brainer - this is about money. Most of the money comes from US - don't know how this works, but keep reading that having big-time US players means more money is made. Also, Teddy Forstmann wants to make money in Asia. While most of the tournaments are in Europe. As it should be, since that's the birthplace of tennis. It's our sport. Asia has a tour of it's own, but dear Teddy isn't making any buckaroos over there. If they bring Year Ends back to Europe as planned, they'll give them a Masters in exchange.

2) I wish they'd require that each Major has 1 Masters as a lead-in & a cluster of smaller tournaments so everyone gets 2 tournaments at least to warm-up, build up excitement for the coming Major, etc. In this context it makes sense to have Rome as the pre-Paris Masters, while Hamburg & Monte Carlo join the cluster of smaller draw lead ins. They can't offer Hamburg a grass Masters pre-Wimby in exchange 'cuz it's too wet there & anyway, they're not adding grass warmups as they should. In this context also, it makes sense to downgrade Cincy, making Canada the Masters lead-in to NYC.

2moretogo
04-16-2007, 07:20 PM
Well, you are lumping together many many nations in Europe versus 2 in North America. Is that fair?
It's not like America has a bigger representation of top players in the ATP. And no one knows if it also brings in more revenue to the ATP than does the rest of the nations' tournaments. So it's not like Ljubicic/ND/others do not have any point at all.

There ought to be an explanation of how tournaments were chosen to be axed.

Please explain how getting rid of Cincy/Canada elevates the scheduling issues in April and particularly those with the European Clay Court season? Or Even Paris for that matter?

To my understanding, and I haveasked anyone to clarify, Hamburg and/or MC were asked to move in the calendar or change surfaces as well as Paris. It is clear given their current placement in the schedule that they both can not stay AMS events, but I am not sure why both need to downgraded.

I agree with you that there ought to be some explanation as to how certain tournaments were chosen to be downgraded. Were there financial benchmarks, agreements to upgrade facilities, commitment to media, placement in the schedule, etc...

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 07:28 PM
Please explain how getting rid of Cincy/Canada elevates the scheduling issues in April and particularly those with the European Clay Court season? Or Even Paris for that matter?

To my understanding and I have anyone to clarify, Hamburg and/or MC were asked to move in the calendar or change surfaces as well as Paris. It is clear given their current placement in the schedule that they both can not stay AMS events, but I am not sure why both need to downgraded.

I agree with you that there ought to be some explanation as to how certain tournaments were chosen to be downgraded. Where there financial benchmarks, agreements to upgrade facilities, commitment to media, placement in the schedule, etc...

Where have I EVER advocated that Cincy/Canada need to go?

I am giving an explanation for why Ljubicic/ND/others feel that, given the explanations by the ATP for why some tournaments are going, it can come across as odd that all North American tournaments have been saved.

Allez
04-16-2007, 07:31 PM
Where have I EVER advocated that Cincy/Canada need to go?

I am giving an explanation for why Ljubicic/ND/others feel that, given the explanations by the ATP for why some tournaments are going, it can come across as odd that all North American tournaments have been saved.

Just how many European TMS tourneys are going ? I got the impression that it was either MC or Hamburg, not both :shrug:

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 07:46 PM
Just how many European TMS tourneys are going ? I got the impression that it was either MC or Hamburg, not both :shrug:

By gone I mean from TMS. Both are going.

Merton
04-16-2007, 08:01 PM
It has something to do with the issue, even if it isn't the central issue.

De Villiers has been toying with the idea of limiting the number of masters series by one and making appearances in them mandatory. Hence he is definitely unhappy with the fact that Americans are not participating consistently in European tourneys like Monte Carlo.

Downgrading Monte Carlo and having a clay series in Madrid is his idea of creating a 'super' event of sorts - a Miami on clay. Not only would it please Tiriac, but it would take place in the supposed haven of clay court tennis. By this virtue his utopian idea is that players would want to go there because it would be prestigious and unmissable.

He has big ideas - ambitious ideas. But he's stupid. He thinks he can build a golden city without taking all of the necessary steps in getting to an efficient, reasonable goal. It's like going to war in Iraq while ignoring the United Nations.

Truly the dream of an idiot.

A Miami on clay? Would that be a mixed, two week event? If this is the case then it is big news, because it means they take out two weeks from the calendar. What happens to the other events? As with the RR system, the ATP can be counted upon to screw up in the implementation phase.

The ATP needs to provide transparent analysis of why these plans are financially viable. Their analysis should not only include the benefits from holding a Miami type event in Madrid but also the costs of downgrading other tournaments like Barcelona in the process. Having guarantees that the European ATP headquarters would remain in Monte Carlo would also be necessary, otherwise they also need to include the tax loss from moving out of the principality once they find out they are no longer wanted there.

I guess Mr. Disney plans to announce his decisions after the French Open, thinking that it will be too late for any serious opposition by then. It is great that the players speak out now, this is just a case of pure, naked, favouritism. This whole scheme is all about benefiting Tiriac while hurting other tournaments.

Johnny Groove
04-16-2007, 08:10 PM
Why do so many Spaniards turn their back on Wimbledon?

some Spaniards make the final of Wimbledon :)

I love how a noble thread turns into an anti-American thread :rolleyes:

Really though, i hope that this gets sorted out and we get someone to axe Disney, and get someone who cares about the sport and consults the players before he (or she) makes a stupid decision.

btw, I love the clay season. Bashing all around :yeah:

ezekiel
04-16-2007, 08:12 PM
I don't understand the hoopla, the fact is many players skip MC, Hamburg and Paris and they are not making as much money as the others and it needs to be fixed one way or the other . Comparing it to north american masters that bring in money and where very few if any players miss is pointless.

It's not about scrapping the tourneyes but fixing them and making them more fair

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 08:16 PM
I don't understand the hoopla, the fact is many players skip MC, Hamburg and Paris and they are not making as much money as the others and it needs to be fixed one way or the other . Comparing it to north american masters that bring in money and where very few if any players miss is pointless.

Well, where have you read that unprofitability is the reason that ATP are demoting Hamburg/MC?

Merton
04-16-2007, 08:19 PM
I don't understand the hoopla, the fact is many players skip MC, Hamburg and Paris and they are not making as much money as the others and it needs to be fixed one way or the other . Comparing it to north american masters that bring in money and where very few if any players miss is pointless.

Where is the evidence that the bottom line benefits from this restructuring? Do you trust the current ATP administration to implement such a scheme correctly?

It is not enough to say "oh, Monte Carlo does not bring in as much cash as it should". What is the alternative? In the absence of thorough analysis, this is just a pretext, simple as that.

alfonsojose
04-16-2007, 08:20 PM
The american thing i think it's more about Andy and James being the players from the country with the the biggest market. So if they don't want to play MC, MC isn't worth it (remember when ESPN drop the broadcast of MC) and get rid of MC.

Merton
04-16-2007, 08:20 PM
Well, where have you read that unprofitability is the reason that ATP are demoting Hamburg/MC?

Great minds :)

FluffyYellowBall
04-16-2007, 08:29 PM
i can just picture it!
Federer complaining and nadal nodding in agreement. yez, hees rrright!
Anyway, i think something could be done with all this attention around it.

ezekiel
04-16-2007, 08:30 PM
Well, where have you read that unprofitability is the reason that ATP are demoting Hamburg/MC?

I read something about it when this came about but I think they don't have american tv money and stadium is relativelly small which makes them less profitable

zadle69
04-16-2007, 08:31 PM
i want to say this. Let give that money to more important people like the soliders who are defending our freedoms and right and who are putting their lives on the line, teachers who educate our your kids and shape their futures, police officers who again every day put their lives on the line to protect people. To be honest with you, I think these players complaining so much they don't live in the real world where people are not spoiled and pampered like they are.

Mordra
04-16-2007, 08:32 PM
I read something about it when this came about but I think they don't have american tv money and stadium is relativelly small which makes them less profitable

And Madrid has american tv money and is profitable, more so than MC? :confused:

zadle69
04-16-2007, 08:33 PM
then they are working people that are losing their jobs everyday due to downsizing and outsourcing. i mean these to me are more important issues.

zadle69
04-16-2007, 08:34 PM
soldiers typing fast

Allez
04-16-2007, 08:35 PM
i want to say this. Let give that money to more important people like the soliders who are defending our freedoms and right and who are putting their lives on the line
They are not defending our freedoms...at least not at the moment. Instead they are being used to serve an immoral agenda as well as the eventual suppression of all our freedoms. Don't see how this relates to tennis but there you go ;)

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 08:46 PM
I read something about it when this came about but I think they don't have american tv money and stadium is relativelly small which makes them less profitable

Well that is the point -- if ATP came out and said that they were demoting these two because they do not bring in enough profits, that would be one thing. But they have not said that. MC/Hamburg are ostensibly being sacked out of TMS for other "more noble" reasons --including the season being too long. Well, if they say that, then there are other TMS that could go. In fact, in the interest of parity they should remove/demote one hard and one clay.

Hiding behind this veil of do-good-ness when they are just out to save another buck, hideous.

Raquel
04-16-2007, 08:47 PM
I did not mean to single out Spaniards specifically. Latinos, in general, however often skip Wimbledon if we look at history and would do so a lot more if it wasn't as prestigious as we know it to be. Many who do show up often look like they'd rather have stayed home (Argentinians like Coria in particular).
Totally :topic: here, but in 2005 Coria really did try at Wimbledon. Overcame Malisse in 5 sets and then beat Melzer from 2-0 sets down. Saw both those matches and if he really wanted to slip away quietly back to Argentina he could have done so in the fifth v Malisse and still have been a respectable enough loss but he fought hard that year. The year before he was still just mentally hungover from the RG final collapse more than anything.

zadle69
04-16-2007, 08:51 PM
those soldiers are putting their lives on the line when they are. remember that no matter whatever the motive is. remember what you are doing compare to what they do. putting your life on the line is more important to me than people complaining and making more money than average person or even some CEOs.

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 08:53 PM
those soldiers are putting their lives on the line when they are. remember that no matter whatever the motive is. remember what you are doing compare to what they do. putting your life on the line is more important to me than people complaining and making more money than average person or even some CEOs.

What did you say to get so many red badges of honour?

Kitty de Sade
04-16-2007, 08:53 PM
This thread is being taken into some very dangerous territory. There are other places for discussion about the war that would be more suitable than the General Messages section of MTF.

LaTenista
04-16-2007, 08:53 PM
I think that it may have figured into De Villiers' decision that the fact that his favorite Americans skip Monte Carlo it is somehow an inferior location for tennis.

Even if this is not the case, the popularity of the tournament was questioned by the poster above and my point addressed that statement.

De Villiers is a village idiot who builds these magical castles in the sky like a deranged communist. He doesn't mind stepping over people while he does it too. The players must sign a petition to get him out once and for all. I recommend that they hit him right where it hurts - by skipping Cincinnati outright.

:retard: Cincy's courts play the closest to the USO's.

I, personally, don't like that statement from Davy about Americans.

Nevertheless, I must agree with them that it's ridiculous that none of the American masters are being touched...........specifically IW or Cincy. I also find it very hard to believe that IW is profitable. If IW were not owned by Sampras and the lot, more consideration would have been given into downgrading it.

Andy and Blake are playing Houston the week prior to MC. It's hard for them to make the transition. If anything Mr. Disney should consider cutting or merging that joke of a tournament, Houston, so that everyone is able to make it to MC.

Cincy is two weeks before the USO and IMHO the best preparation for the final slam of the year. This reminds me a few years ago some commentators were suggesting that the tennis season end after the USO. Though I think a better solution would be not to have any mandatory tournaments after the USO, that way players could decide for themselves whether to keep playing or take a break until the new year. :shrug:

Because? I don't see the top guys skipping it. If they really wanted any of the North American masters to go then they should not play them. The ultimate statement would be to not show up. But last time I checked they all show up and play.

I would say scrap Paris. They have a slam, most years the tournament is plagued by top players pulling out. But I'm sure someone else would come here and list all the reasons why Paris should stay. And I'm sure that would be the same for most events on the calender.

*nods* I know at least last year there were more top players at Cincy than Toronto.


The problematic masters are Monte Carlo , Hamburg and Paris due to sheduling where a lot of players don't show up and Cincinnati which is just too bland of a location for Masters

:rolleyes:

Gulliver
04-16-2007, 08:56 PM
I'm wondering if it's the wish to have more combined ATP/WTA events.

Tiriac has the money and influence to offer a two week one, in Madrid, on clay. The slot he wants is the one with MC, Rome and Hamburg. None of those, I think, have the facilities to mount a combined event. Rome is building a new stadium to be ready for 2009, and no one has even mentioned it being demoted. Ergo 2 others (MC and Hamburg) get the chop, either to nab one of the remaining 3 weeks as a new "Open 500", or take up the Autumn slot vacated by Madrid.

But without any evidence that tournaments were asked if they could provide a combined event, I'm just speculating. But there's been enough floated out about Tiriac's idea for it to be a valid starting point.

*julie*
04-16-2007, 09:04 PM
I didn't expect such reactions to defend Monte Carlo. That's great to see them defending this great tournament. :worship:

I'd like to know which Americans other than Andy signed the petition. Does anyone know?

I'd like to know that too.

I read somewhere that the petition has been signed by 65 players.. Among the top 10 only 2 players didn't sign.
I assume Blake didn't but who is the other one?

Raquel
04-16-2007, 09:07 PM
Ok - it really isn't rocket science to work it out. The European season is actually quite long - starting in mid-April and going on til early July if you do well at Wimbledon. During that 3 month period, it is geographically and financially difficult for the US players to get home to see their families etc, so they tend to skip Monte Carlo to have a few extra weeks at home. I guess a lot of them dislike our life here in Europe, as much as many Europeans dislike being in the States for an extended period of time. There is a big cultural difference - it is not "home" for them, and I can understand them skipping MC, especially as they probably know they won't earn that many points there. it is the same argument that means the majority of European players prefer playing in Bastad/Umag/Stuttgart etc instead of the US tourneys in the Summer. That way they only have to spend about 4 weeks in the States, they are in their own time zone, and can get home in an hour or so if they lose in the first round.


Rosie, I know what you are saying here and I think it's valid, but I don't know if this need to be "at home" or be in their own time zone is that great, or reason enough to not play an event. When you think of players from South America where there's only 3 or 4 weeks of play a year, players from Australia who are in Australia for tournaments only 4 weeks a year; and players from Asian countries like Paradorn from Thailand who have maybe only 1 or 2 top level events a year - it's a lot less time in their home country than the American players. You don't really see these players not playing all summer in Europe and America back to back from concievably April- September because it's too long away from their time zone. If Roddick and Blake don't want to play Monte Carlo that's fine. If it's too close to Houston, that's fine. To say it's because it's too long away from home is a bit of a lame excuse (if it's ever used). They're big boys now and should be able to handle it, especially considering how privileged and 5 star their life on the road actually is when you're near the top of the rankings.

Allez
04-16-2007, 09:09 PM
those soldiers are putting their lives on the line when they are. remember that no matter whatever the motive is. remember what you are doing compare to what they do. putting your life on the line is more important to me than people complaining and making more money than average person or even some CEOs.
Please, it's their choice. No one is forcing them. If they wanted higher paying jobs then they should have chosen differently. Instead they chose to be pawns in a sinister game of thrones they are not required to understand. Don't blame the tennis players. At least they are standing up for what they believe in instead of following ET's orders unquestioningly. They should inspire you to stand up and question those who make decisions on your behalf ;) Rogi and the crew are doing a good job :worship:

zadle69
04-16-2007, 09:11 PM
I am just responding. Life is a priceless thing but it is not being compensated. These athletes are expressing their concerns and stuff but they forget that they should be grateful and lucky. At a young age they are making lots of money, getting spoiled and pampered, and able to come back to their love ones. That is not the case for soldiers. Some of those soldiers are young just like those athletes. Plus look what they face on an every day basis on the fields. Compare that to what you or those athletes may have to face on an every day basis. This discussion can also reach to other individuals also.

zadle69
04-16-2007, 09:11 PM
allez let see you out their fighting and see what you think

Allez
04-16-2007, 09:19 PM
allez let see you out their fighting and see what you think

Fighting for what ? There is no need for any fighting. It's their CHOICE to take up a profession where they can easily be duped into killing other human beings for god knows what. I have very little sympathy for people like that. Tennis players chose a profession where they could use their talents to express themselves in a non violent way whilst raking in the $$$s. Should they be penalised for that ? Golfers, footballers, Basketball players etc make far more money than tennis players even though they do less physically demanding work. AND do not forget tennis players are finished by the time they hit the 30's so it's all relative. They still will have 50 odd years of life to live and not all are lucky to become TV personalities when their knees start to go.

alfonsojose
04-16-2007, 09:21 PM
i want to say this. Let give that money to more important people like the soliders who are defending our freedoms and right and who are putting their lives on the line, teachers who educate our your kids and shape their futures, police officers who again every day put their lives on the line to protect people. To be honest with you, I think these players complaining so much they don't live in the real world where people are not spoiled and pampered like they are.

Derailed :haha: :haha: :haha:

Stop the soldiers thing :zzz:

alfonsojose
04-16-2007, 09:22 PM
Fighting for what ? There is no need for any fighting. It's their CHOICE to take up a profession where they can easily be duped into killing other human beings for god knows what. I have very little sympathy for people like that. Tennis players chose a profession where they could use their talents to express themselves in a non violent way whilst raking in the $$$s. Should they be penalised for that ? Golfers, footballers, Basketball players etc make far more money than tennis players even though they do less physically demanding work. AND do not forget tennis players are finished by the time they hit the 30's so it's all relative. They still will have 50 odd years of life to live and not all are lucky to become TV personalities when their knees start to go.

Leave red-dotted boy alone :hug:

nobama
04-16-2007, 09:26 PM
I don't think ATP is bending over for the American players, but they are an America-based organization and they are certainly bending for American tournaments. Is it still? I thought it wasn't anymore. I thought the main headquarters were in London now. :confused:

NadalMachine
04-16-2007, 09:30 PM
ET? Aliens?:devil: :devil:

nobama
04-16-2007, 09:34 PM
I don't understand the hoopla, the fact is many players skip MC, Hamburg and Paris and they are not making as much money as the others and it needs to be fixed one way or the other . Comparing it to north american masters that bring in money and where very few if any players miss is pointless.

It's not about scrapping the tourneyes but fixing them and making them more fairThe issue (for me, at least) was Ljubicic and Davydekno essentially making the charge that the ATP was screwing over Europe in favor of North America - because none of the North American events were selected for demotion. But North America has nothing to do with creating super events in Madrid and China.

It would be nice to know exactly why Monte Carlo and Hamburg were the ones selected for downgrade.

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 09:39 PM
Is it still? I thought it wasn't anymore. I thought the main headquarters were in London now. :confused:

Weren't they just served, twice, in Delaware? They will be served where they are incorporated or based.

Sofyaxo
04-16-2007, 09:42 PM
Lets make sure this doesn't turn into an excuse to sit and bash the American players. Mostly Andy Roddick, not that you guys need an excuse there, because he's been supporting what's going on.

The bottom line is that ET is just not right for this job, and he's been messing things up since day one.

LaTenista
04-16-2007, 09:47 PM
I'm wondering if it's the wish to have more combined ATP/WTA events.

Tiriac has the money and influence to offer a two week one, in Madrid, on clay. The slot he wants is the one with MC, Rome and Hamburg. None of those, I think, have the facilities to mount a combined event. Rome is building a new stadium to be ready for 2009, and no one has even mentioned it being demoted. Ergo 2 others (MC and Hamburg) get the chop, either to nab one of the remaining 3 weeks as a new "Open 500", or take up the Autumn slot vacated by Madrid.

But without any evidence that tournaments were asked if they could provide a combined event, I'm just speculating. But there's been enough floated out about Tiriac's idea for it to be a valid starting point.

Last summer Cincy was reportedly filing an application to become a Super combined event in 2009, currently the women's event is Tier III held in late July but it draws top players like Serena, Myskina, Schynder, Petrova, Golovin, Jankovic, Dulko, etc.

The issue (for me, at least) was Ljubicic and Davydekno essentially making the charge that the ATP was screwing over Europe in favor of North America - because none of the North American events were selected for demotion. But North America has nothing to do with creating super events in Madrid and China.

It would be nice to know exactly why Monte Carlo and Hamburg were the ones selected for downgrade.

:shrug: I've heard MC is a small venue (compared with all other 8 MS) and Hamburg's courts don't play like the ones at RG. But I've yet to read anything specifically stating the reasons are financially or logistically based.

A couple of years ago there was a rumor Madrid and Hamburg were going to switch surfaces and weeks in the schedule - why is that option no longer on the table?

Merton
04-16-2007, 09:50 PM
By the way, is there any evidence that running a super-combined event on clay in Europe is such a great idea?

nobama
04-16-2007, 09:51 PM
Weren't they just served, twice, in Delaware? They will be served where they are incorporated or based.I don't know about from a legal perspective but according to the ATP webste http://www.atptennis.com/en/aboutatp/organization.asp, de Villers and a small group of executives are headquartered in London.

ezekiel
04-16-2007, 10:07 PM
Well that is the point -- if ATP came out and said that they were demoting these two because they do not bring in enough profits, that would be one thing. But they have not said that. MC/Hamburg are ostensibly being sacked out of TMS for other "more noble" reasons --including the season being too long. Well, if they say that, then there are other TMS that could go. In fact, in the interest of parity they should remove/demote one hard and one clay.

Hiding behind this veil of do-good-ness when they are just out to save another buck, hideous.

I can swear I read that it didn't make enough money whatever "enough" is and it makes sense since so many top players miss it , probably more than any other apart from Paris which is just bad timing

They are demoting 2 clay masters and adding 1 and moving 1 hard court from madrid to china

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 10:09 PM
By the way, is there any evidence that running a super-combined event on clay in Europe is such a great idea?

There is no evidence there is, but on the other hand there is no evidence it is a bad idea either. Myself, I am not in favor of these huge changes that are to the detriment of a few isolated groups. I think changes which allow more flexibility to the players (say, allow more tournaments --yes, more!) but fewer required elements could help players choose the shortness of their own season.

R.Federer
04-16-2007, 10:10 PM
I don't know about from a legal perspective but according to the ATP webste http://www.atptennis.com/en/aboutatp/organization.asp, de Villers and a small group of executives are headquartered in London.

I don't think it matters where de Villers sits. He is not = ATP.

The anti-trust lawsuit filed in the US State of Delaware, where the headquarters of men's tennis is based, follows a similar move by the Hamburg Masters last week.

ezekiel
04-16-2007, 10:12 PM
The issue (for me, at least) was Ljubicic and Davydekno essentially making the charge that the ATP was screwing over Europe in favor of North America - because none of the North American events were selected for demotion. But North America has nothing to do with creating super events in Madrid and China.

It would be nice to know exactly why Monte Carlo and Hamburg were the ones selected for downgrade.

I am not sure if you are arguing their points but there is some problems with euro masters and it's long overdue to deal with it so that more top players show up with capable facilities and weather, I know Hamburg is cold in may

As for american tourneys , well there is nothing wrong with them except that canada and cincy are right after each other but that is apparently dealt with from 2009.

Kalliopeia
04-16-2007, 11:19 PM
I thought they would be announcing their marriage! :sad:

All in good time, my friend, all in good time. :D

Isn't this about the ATP and what's happening with tennis? The Americans skipping Monte Carlo have nothing to do with this. So how about, for once, people put the pettiness aside and since we all mostly agree with the ATP stuff anyway, can't we band together and support the players in their fight? Just this one time? Is that really too much to ask?

:yeah: Agreed completely. God knows I'm not a fan of the American players but this is bigger than that.

Since they are complaining that their voices aren't being heard........offer up a solution. Or do they just not want any tournment to be cut and a masters in Asia added? If this is done, they will then start to complain about the expansion of the season.

Quite frankly, it seems to me that the officials in MC have pulled the players into this as a strategy in keeping their tournament from being downgraded.

Maybe they have been trying to offer a solution. My sense of this is that they are upset that changes are being made without taking their opinions into consideration. We don't know what has been said between the players and de Villiers behind closed doors, just that the players feel they are being disregarded. And actually, I was thinking that it was the players who chose Monte Carlo to make this announcement, since they know MC is going to go all out to get the word out and support them. I guess it works out the same either way.


As for american tourneys , well there is nothing wrong with them except that canada and cincy are right after each other but that is apparently dealt with from 2009.

Hmm, really? Are they shifting those two around in the calendar? Somehow I seem to have missed hearing about that.


It makes me happy to see Roger and Rafa standing together like this, and with other top players behind them this could get very interesting indeed. I'm sure de Villiers is not liking this one little bit. The article mentioned that they were not considering a strike, but I wouldn't count it out. Obviously it'd have to be a very last resort sort of thing but I feel like they've tried to deal with things the quiet way and they feel they're being ignored so now they're turning up the heat a little by speaking out in the media. God knows de Villiers doesn't like to look bad in the press. It'll be interesting to see where this goes if this tactic doesn't work out to the players' satisfaction.

It's going to be an interesting year.

sawan66278
04-16-2007, 11:36 PM
Personally, though I don't see it happening, I would LOVE to see a boycott of some major tourneys (a slam maybe?;) )....like back in the early Open era...could this be the beginning of something like this?

megadeth
04-16-2007, 11:38 PM
I thought they would be announcing their marriage! :sad:

I wonder what would happen if Mr Disney was the ATP president in the McEnroe and Connors era! :haha:

MAC to disney: "YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!!!"

nobama
04-17-2007, 12:10 AM
I don't think it matters where de Villers sits. He is not = ATP.Ok which executives office out of Delaware? I'll bet none. I work for a company that has subsidiaries incorporated in Delaware. But we have no employees or physical buildings there.

So ATP being incorporated in Delaware does not = de Villers beholden to American interests. If he/the ATP really was favoring the US over Europe (or anywhere else) he/they would've brought TMC back to the US instead of London (or wherever else in Europe it might be held).

Merton
04-17-2007, 12:37 AM
Back to the press conference, another good thing is that it forces Mr. Disney's hands to declare his intentions. He cannot wait until June and then just announce his dictums, he has been weakened after the RR fiasco, so he needs to appear listening and accomodating, especially after such a public plea. At least I hope so.

Via
04-17-2007, 12:49 AM
wow FINALLY!!! amazing news. although if de villiers had paid more attention to them players in miami then it would be even better news cos then we wouldn't hear any more of it. people normally would rather resolve issues quietly and peacefully and get on with life. but it looks like de villiers and his new executives are too stubborn with their brave new world :rolleyes: this i fear is only the beginning of a mighty struggle....

have we finally got a verdict from the players that de villiers doesn't know much about tennis? what had he claimed about that himself? :haha:

R.Federer
04-17-2007, 12:58 AM
Ok which executives office out of Delaware? I'll bet none. I work for a company that has subsidiaries incorporated in Delaware. But we have no employees or physical buildings there.

So ATP being incorporated in Delaware does not = de Villers beholden to American interests. If he/the ATP really was favoring the US over Europe (or anywhere else) he/they would've brought TMC back to the US instead of London (or wherever else in Europe it might be held).

If the ATP is favoring the US in one decision, does it mean they have to favor in ALL decisions? Is that your basis for why the ATP can definitely not be favoring the US backed tournaments for the TMS decision? Because they did not pick the US instead of London for a different decision? The TMC by the way is a short decision, for 3 years if I am not mistaken, whereas the TMSs are likely there for the pretty long term.

The ATP's headquarters are based in Delaware. Who knows why they're based there? Maybe they have favorable tax treatments by being based there. And who would blame anyone for not wanting to sit in Delaware?

Via
04-17-2007, 01:05 AM
Ok which executives office out of Delaware? I'll bet none. I work for a company that has subsidiaries incorporated in Delaware. But we have no employees or physical buildings there.

So ATP being incorporated in Delaware does not = de Villers beholden to American interests. If he/the ATP really was favoring the US over Europe (or anywhere else) he/they would've brought TMC back to the US instead of London (or wherever else in Europe it might be held).

the atp's original headquarter was in florida so it's logical that it's incorporated in the united states (and thus delaware). there never was an office in delaware. but practically it's a global organisation so it's de villiers' choice to work from london, i guess, and in a way that is not 'continental europe' and thus not favouring europe over america or vice versa :shrug: in mark miles' times, there wasn't a distinction between headquarters and american(florida) office. now there is a separate headquarter from europe or american office.

Back to the press conference, another good thing is that it forces Mr. Disney's hands to declare his intentions. He cannot wait until June and then just announce his dictums, he has been weakened after the RR fiasco, so he needs to appear listening and accomodating, especially after such a public plea. At least I hope so.

i would imagine the response from the atp now will be diplomatic rather than declaring intentions... though they now know that the players are prepared to escalate their discontent, so they will have to take them more seriously and take their opinions into account.

NicoFan
04-17-2007, 01:06 AM
The ATP's headquarters are based in Delaware. Who knows why they're based there? Maybe they have favorable tax treatments by being based there. And who would blame anyone for not wanting to sit in Delaware?

Hi R.Federer - actually that is incorrect. The ATP's executive offices are in London. They also have a number of other offices including in Florida:

http://www.atptennis.com/en/aboutatp/contact.asp

The ATP is incorporated in Delaware, but almost every major corporation in the U.S. is incorporated in Delaware due to tax purposes. That does not mean their offices are in Delaware - I've been through Wilmington, Delaware, and it's a small city - not many corporate headquarters in that city. :)

Metis
04-17-2007, 01:08 AM
When I first read the thread title I thought the two of them were in some kind of trouble (maybe Mirka caught them together and started chasing them with a knife :scared: ) :lol:.


Anyway, good thing they are united and acting against all the ATP nonsense!

NicoFan
04-17-2007, 01:44 AM
If anyone sees the transcript for the full press conference, can you please post? (I haven't been able to read through all the pages so if someone already did, my apologies). Also sometimes people put the press conferences on youtube. I checked and didn't see it but it takes a day or two to upload them online.

Thanks!

R.Federer
04-17-2007, 01:48 AM
Hi R.Federer - actually that is incorrect. The ATP's executive offices are in London. They also have a number of other offices including in Florida:

http://www.atptennis.com/en/aboutatp/contact.asp

The ATP is incorporated in Delaware, but almost every major corporation in the U.S. is incorporated in Delaware due to tax purposes. That does not mean their offices are in Delaware - I've been through Wilmington, Delaware, and it's a small city - not many corporate headquarters in that city. :)

Hi Nico,
I don't think I ever said anywhere about ATP's executive offices and where they are. I only talked about their headquarters being in Delaware, which I think is correct.
And yes, I know about the office in Florida.


The anti-trust lawsuit filed in the US State of Delaware, where the headquarters of men's tennis is based, follows a similar move by the Hamburg Masters last week.

Saumon
04-17-2007, 06:11 AM
If anyone sees the transcript for the full press conference, can you please post? (I haven't been able to read through all the pages so if someone already did, my apologies). Also sometimes people put the press conferences on youtube. I checked and didn't see it but it takes a day or two to upload them online.

Thanks!

I've not seen anything. Btw, in his blog, Tommy said he had been asked in press conference about the MC downgrading. Anyone knows what he answered?

*julie*
04-17-2007, 06:18 AM
I've not seen anything. Btw, in his blog, Tommy said he had been asked in press conference about the MC downgrading. Anyone knows what he answered?

Here the whole article from l'équipe today. There is one quote from Robredo.

La fronde des ténors


Tempête sur le Rocher. Emmenés par Federer et Nadal, les meilleurs mondiaux se sont opposés hier aux réformes engagées par l’ATP.


MONTE-CARLO –

de notre envoyé spécial


IL Y A EU LE SERMENT du Jeu de paume, voici celui du tournoi de tennis de Monte-Carlo. Comme le tiers état en 1789, les joueurs de tennis veulent se donner une constitution. À tout le moins, un rôle dans la construction de leur avenir. Pour ce moment historique, la mise en scène avait été soignée, hier matin, au Monte-Carlo Country Club. Pendant que les six autres premières têtes de série devisaient avec la presse, Roger Federer et Rafael Nadal arrivaient ensemble, bons derniers, sous les tentes du village sur le coup de 10 heures. Et transformaient la rencontre avec les médias en happening. Les deux hommes s’assirent côte à côte et le Suisse lut une déclaration sous l’œil approbateur de son dauphin. Le message était clair : « Plus question de se laisser mener par le bout du nez par l’ATP ». « Pour une fois, c’est nous qui venons vers vous, déclara le numéro 1 mondial aux médias. Il faut que vous sachiez ce que nous ressentons. » Qu’on se rassure, le tennis n’est pas à la veille d’une sécession. Mais il y a une vraie fronde devant la volonté de l’ATP de faire passer en force une refonte du calendrier pour 2009, comprenant, notamment, le déclassement de deux Masters Series européens sur terre battue (Monte-Carlo et Hambourg). Après l’échec cuisant des poules mises en place sur certains tournois, Étienne De Villiers, le patron de l’ATP, est fragilisé. Mais cette grogne sera-t-elle suffisante pour arrêter son train de réformes, lancé à toute vapeur ?


DES JOUEURS SOLIDAIRES


C’est une réunion des joueurs convoqués par l’ATP il y a un mois qui a fait déborder le vase. Nikolay Davydenko, très pugnace hier contre l’ATP, raconte : « On a d’abord eu droit à un speech d’une heure de De Villiers et, au final, ça a fait deux heures pour rien. » Au bout de ce gâchis, soixante-cinq joueurs, dont les dix premiers mondiaux, ont signé une pétition pour demander une halte des réformes. « Auparavant, les dirigeants pouvaient se frotter les mains, raconte Federer. Nous étions velléitaires. Des critiques en ordre dispersé et pas d’action. Maintenant, c’est du sérieux. On arrive à un tournant dans l’évolution du jeu et cette fois, on va être présents. » « Cette solidarité a commencé dans notre combat précédent pour être mieux traités lors des tournois du Grand Chelem, se souvient Ivan Ljubicic. Cette union est plus forte que jamais. Les “ top ” joueurs sont particulièrement impliqués. »


DES RÉFORMES TROP RAPIDES


La rébellion des joueurs ne porte pas essentiellement sur le fond des réformes mais sur leur cadence : « On ne peut pas continuer à avancer à ce rythme, martelait Federer. On passe notre temps à être dos au mur. » « C’est le problème de la poule et de l’œuf, expliquait Ljubicic. L’ATP nous dit : “ signez maintenant, on finalisera après ”. Nous, on répond : “ finalisons d’abord et on signera. ” » Pour Federer, l’époque des joueurs béni-oui-oui est révolue : « J’ai l’impression que ces dix, quinze dernières années, il n’y a pas eu de vraies discussions avec les joueurs. »


L’ANTAGONISME ÉTATS-UNIS - EUROPE


Même si Nadal déclare que « les Américains sont avec nous puisque Roddick a signé la pétition », il y a bien un clivage USA-Europe. « 80 % des joueurs viennent d’Europe ou d’Amérique du Sud, mais ce sont les Américains qui font la loi », tempête Davydenko. Ljubicic s’étonne, lui aussi, de cette exception américaine : « L’ATP n’a pas songé un instant à s’attaquer aux Masters Series nord-américains ! J’imagine qu’ils ont mieux ficelé leurs contrats. Les Européens vont donc faire les frais de la réforme. » Robredo renchérit : « Moi, je suis espagnol, j’aime la terre battue. Je constate que l’ATP n’a de cesse de rogner sur le calendrier de terre. Et même si le projet est de créer un grand tournoi à Madrid, moi, Espagnol, je préfère garder les deux autres Masters Series sur terre. » Et Ljubicic ajoute : « Les Américains n’ont jamais fait l’effort de venir à Monte-Carlo mais l’ATP trouve normal que les Européens doivent enchaîner Indian Wells et Miami… »


ET MAINTENANT ?


Arrivé à la barre en janvier 2006, Étienne De Villiers, ancien dirigeant de Walt Disney, a-t-il encore la faveur des joueurs ? « Mark Miles (précédent boss de l’ATP) n’en faisait pas assez, mais De Villiers en fait trop », constate Federer, qui conclut toutefois : « Il est l’homme de la situation, pour l’instant. » Davydenko est moins tendre : « Il était sans doute bon pour Walt Disney mais il ne connaît rien au tennis. » Ljubicic tempère : « Quand il est arrivé, il ne savait rien, mais donnons-lui crédit d’avoir beaucoup appris. Son véritable problème vient de son entourage. » La guerre n’aura cependant pas lieu. Tant Federer que Ljubicic refusent d’évoquer la grève. « Soyons réalistes, avoue le Croate, notre carrière dure de dix à quinze ans maxi. Nous n’avons aucune envie de ne pas jouer. Les joueurs passent mais les tournois, eux, restent. » Et la réforme tant décriée pourrait quand même passer en force. « La date butoir pour officialiser le calendrier 2009 était à Miami, rappelle Ljubicic. Il est peut-être déjà trop tard. » Le mouvement des joueurs ne va pas s’arrêter sur cette éventuelle défaite. « Heureusement, on a un super leader avec Federer, résume Ljubicic. À nous d’en profiter. »

Allez
04-17-2007, 06:21 AM
Anyone care to translate please ;) This story is blowing up :eek:

*julie*
04-17-2007, 06:28 AM
Don't have time to translate the whole thing and most of it has already been said.
As for Robredo, he says: "I am spanish, I love clay. I see the ATP don't stop reducing the clay sesaon. And even if the objective is to create a MS in Madrid, I, even being spanish, prefer to keep the other two MS on clay".

Allez
04-17-2007, 06:31 AM
Thanks. I can see his point. Perfectly reasonable. If it must happen then drop Hamburg and keep MC & Rome. Everyone's happy.

Action Jackson
04-17-2007, 06:35 AM
Because it's not a popular tournament with all the players.

I don't know why they don't play there. The point is that they don't.

Popular with everyone else besides the few Americans who are no loss on clay, just like some of the South Americans are no loss to a grass event.

uglyamerican
04-17-2007, 06:38 AM
Popular with everyone else besides the few Americans who are no loss on clay, just like some of the South Americans are no loss to a grass event.

And Australians have often skipped this event.

Saumon
04-17-2007, 06:39 AM
merci julie

Merton
04-17-2007, 06:41 AM
And Australians have often skipped this event.

So? Are you really saying that Monte Carlo is a marginal clay event because Americans and Australians tend to skip it?

uglyamerican
04-17-2007, 06:45 AM
So? Are you really saying that Monte Carlo is a marginal clay event because Americans and Australians tend to skip it?

I was speculating if anything could be done to get more of the top players to show up.

Previously there were 2 weeks between Davis Cup and Monte Carlo.

Action Jackson
04-17-2007, 06:51 AM
It's not hard to work out really, you don't keep your workforce happy, in this case the players, then there is going to be instability. When management wants to force something down their throat from above without even considering their interests, then it's not a surprise what is happening.

Considering the ATP as a players union is working against the players, then discontent is obvious. Miles did nothing and Disney just opens his mouth and doesn't think.

PMK is right, Fed and Nadal are correct in their concerns and it might need a strike or a rebel group to get some people to listen.

Action Jackson
04-17-2007, 06:56 AM
And Australians have often skipped this event.

Hewitt has played Monte Carlo when he has been fit. Hewitt doesn't dog clay events when he is fit.

You failed to address the issue actually. Roddick, Blake and Fish are no loss to a TMS clay event at worst and minimal at best or has that slipped your mind.

Merton
04-17-2007, 07:06 AM
It's not hard to work out really, you don't keep your workforce happy, in this case the players, then there is going to be instability. When management wants to force something down their throat from above without even considering their interests, then it's not a surprise what is happening.

Considering the ATP as a players union is working against the players, then discontent is obvious. Miles did nothing and Disney just opens his mouth and doesn't think.

PMK is right, Fed and Nadal are correct in their concerns and it might need a strike or a rebel group to get some people to listen.

If Madrid becomes a TMS, some events will need to go altogether, since there is no ATP tournament at the same week as an AMS tournament and there are no open slots in the clay season. It seems there are rumors they want to organize a Miami style mixed event, that would need 2 weeks.

It is just a circus show at the moment, the big irony would be if Mr. Disney decides to sell Tiriac short and opts for cutting Madrid, after upgrading Shanghai.

Action Jackson
04-17-2007, 07:11 AM
If Madrid becomes a TMS, some events will need to go altogether, since there is no ATP tournament at the same week as an AMS tournament and there are no open slots in the clay season. It seems there are rumors they want to organize a Miami style mixed event, that would need 2 weeks.

It is just a circus show at the moment, the big irony would be if Mr. Disney decides to sell Tiriac short and opts for cutting Madrid, after upgrading Shanghai.

Yes, Madrid is meant to be a 10 day event, this means Barcelona would have to move again. They used to play it later in the year, but they moved it to its current slot now.

This being the case where would Monte Carlo go and yes it seems like the Estoril/Munich ones will be gone.

Merton
04-17-2007, 07:17 AM
Yes, Madrid is meant to be a 10 day event, this means Barcelona would have to move again. They used to play it later in the year, but they moved it to its current slot now.

This being the case where would Monte Carlo go and yes it seems like the Estoril/Munich ones will be gone.

I think Barcelona recently made some important investment to upgrade their facilities, considering also the tradition between Catalans and Castillians I doubt that they will be very happy at these news. Not to mention that nobody has reported problems with the Munich/Estoril events, lower ranked players also need to play somewhere. Quite remarkable, all that trouble just to accomodate Tiriac.

Action Jackson
04-17-2007, 07:29 AM
I think Barcelona recently made some important investment to upgrade their facilities, considering also the tradition between Catalans and Castillians I doubt that they will be very happy at these news. Not to mention that nobody has reported problems with the Munich/Estoril events, lower ranked players also need to play somewhere. Quite remarkable, all that trouble just to accomodate Tiriac.

Barcelona is the home of Spanish tennis and the standard of play at Godo is as high as some of the TMS events. Well the tension between the Catalans and Castillians was the reason Arrese was sacked by Muñoz as DC captain when he had an excellent record.

It's good that the players have finally made some comment about it and this story is far from over.

almouchie
04-17-2007, 07:55 AM
the top 2 players
came together for
the top 8 players conference
in support for monte carlo tournament

the players are seeing that many of the changes to be introduced by clueles V
are not in the best interests of tennis
& need to make their voices heard
if players unite & decide to make a strike by not playing a tournament
then maybe ATP will be inclined to listen to players/fans
before sponsors/businesses/management

Castafiore
04-17-2007, 07:58 AM
I've translated the Equipe article (posted by *julie* on the previous page).

Keeping in mind that neither French nor English is my first language, feel free to correct it if it's necessary for the understanding of the article.

The united front of the tenors
L'Equipe.


There’s a storm brewing, lead by Federer and Nadal, the best players in the world have put up an opposition against the planned reforms of the ATP.

In the past we had a Tennis Court Oath, a reminder of what happened at the Monte Carlo tennis tournament. Just like the Third Estate back in 1798, the players want to create a constitution or at least have a say in building a future constitution. This historic moment took place in the Monte Carlo County Club. While the other six seeded players were chatting with the press, Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal arrived together, the very last ones to arrive at VIP village’s tents at 10 a.m, thereby transforming the press meeting into a happening. The two men sat down side by side and the Swiss read out a declaration under the approving eye of his “dauphin” (second in line). The message was clear: “We will no longer be led by the nose by the ATP. For once, we’re the ones coming to you”, declared the word number two to the media. “It’s important for you to know how we feel”.
Just to reassure you, the world of tennis is not about to fall apart. But there was a real front put up against the eagerness of the ATP to enforce a revamp of the 2009 calendar, including the downgrading of two European Master Series events on clay (Monte Carlo and Hamburg). After the round robin failure, tried out during several tournaments, the position of Etienne de Villiers, the ATP CEO, has been weakened.
However, will all this grumbling be enough to stop him on his swift way to reform?

Players in solidarity

The players reunion organized by the ATP a month ago was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Nikolay Davydenko, very combative against the ATP yesterday, said: “We first had the right to a one hour speech by de Villiers and, finally, it turned out to be two hours for nothing." During this mess, 65 players - among which the 10 highest ranked players - have signed a petition to ask for a stop to the reforms. “The managers were already rubbing their hands with glee beforehand because we were indecisive. Criticism was given in a random way but no action was undertaken. Now, it’s getting serious. » « This solidarity was started by our previous fight to get a better treatment outside the Grand Slam events,” recalls Ivan Ljubicic. "This bond is stronger than ever before. Especially the « top » players are particularly involved."


The reforms happen too fast

The rebellion of the players is not really about the reforms themselves but more with the pace of it. “We can no longer continue to move forward at this pace”, hammered Federer. “We’re spending our times standing with our backs against the wall.” “It’s the problem of the egg and the chicken,» explains Ljubicic. “The ATP tells us: “sign now and we will finalize things later.” We on the other hand want to finalize things first and sign later.” For Federer, the era of the players who say yes and amen (the yes-men) has gone. I have the impression that in the last ten, fifteen years, there haven't been any real discussions amongst the players”.


USA – Europe antagonism

Even if Nadal declared that : « the Americans are with us because Roddick has signed the petition », there is a split between the USA and Europe. “80% of the players are from Europe or South-American but it’s the Americans that make the law,” Davydenko fumed. Ljubicic is also astonished by the American exception : « Not even for one moment has the ATP considered attacking the North-American Masters Series events! I imagine that they have better negociated their contracts. So, it’s the Europeans who have to pay the price of the reforms.”
Robredo adds : « Me, I’m a Spaniard, I love clay. I’ve noticed that the ATP haven’t stopped cutting in the clay court calendar. Even if they’re planning to create a big tournament in Madrid, I still prefer to keep the other two Master Series events on clay. » and Ljubicic adds : « The Americans never put in the effort to come to Monte Carlo but the ATP thinks that it’s normal that the Europeans appear in Indian Wells and in Miami… »


What now?

Does the former manager of Walt Disney Etienne de Villiers, having taken over the leadership in january 2006, still have some credit with the players? “Mark Miles (former ATP CEO) didn’t do enough but de Villiers does too much”, assesses Federer who concludes nevertheless: “He’s the man in charge right now.” Davydenko is less kind: “He was perhaps good for Walt Disney but he doesn’t know a thing about tennis.” Ljubicic eases: “When he arrived, he knew nothing but let’s give him some credit for having learned a lot. His real problem is his entourage.”
In the mean time, there will be no war. Both Federer and Ljubicic refuse to use the strike threat. “Let’s be realistic,” says the Croat, “our career lasts ten to fifteen years maximum. We have no interest at all in not playing. The players come and go but the tournaments are here to stay.” The reforms could even be enforced from above. “The deadline to set the 2009 calendar passed in Miami,” recalls Ljubicic. “Maybe it’s already too late.” The actions of the player will not stop with a possible defeat though. “Luckily, we have a superb leader with Federer”, Ljubicic continues. “It’s up to us to use this to our advantage.”

Castafiore
04-17-2007, 08:06 AM
In Bodo's blog (tennis.com), there's a sports journalist (Miguel Séabra) from Portugal who sometimes adds a comment or two.
In a recent blog entry (comments section), he was talking about Tiriac's influence and also about moving the Madrid TMS on clay right before Roland Garros. He said that because of the higher altitude of Madrid, the players will need to adjust their game to the local circumstances there and then, coming back to RG, they will need to readjust to the playing circumstances in Paris again. It's not really an ideal preparation for Roland Garros.


***

An article from The Independent with more reactions from players:

Administrators under fire as the players 'scream for help'

By Paul Newman in Monte Carlo
Published: 17 April 2007

A bar in the VIP area at the Monte Carlo Country Club was an unlikely setting for an uprising, but Rafael Nadal was wearing combat trousers, Roger Federer was happy to lead the charge and Nikolay Davydenko was in no mood to hold back his fire.

The men in their sights were Etienne de Villiers and Francesco Ricci Bitti, respective presidents of the Association of Tennis Professionals, which runs the men's tour, and the International Tennis Federation, responsible for the Grand Slam events and Davis Cup.

Administrators have been wrestling with the tennis calendar for 2009 - the ATP plans to reveal its new schedule next week - and the players believe their views are not being taken on board. They are disappointed by what they see as a lack of response to letters they sent to the ITF in January and to the ATP last month.

Of particular concern are plans to strip the Monte Carlo and Hamburg clay court tournaments of their Masters series status, which ensures the participation of top players. The Masters series could be cut from nine tournaments to eight, with Shanghai joining the list and Madrid, currently played in October, becoming a spring clay court event for men and women. Monte Carlo and Hamburg have taken out lawsuits, which, as Tim Henman pointed out, means the ATP is being sued from within. The organisation is owned jointly by the players and tournaments.

The players also believe there should be changes in Davis Cup dates. Federer and Nadal are among those who have reluctantly chosen not to play for their countries recently because of the scheduling.

Ricci Bitti insisted the players' views were being considered, while De Villiers will meet his critics here today. Davydenko, pointing out the clumsy intervention by De Villiers that contributed to the abandonment of the experiment with round-robin tournaments, said: "We don't trust him any more. It's like he can change the rules every week. He's terrible. He doesn't know anything about tennis."

Nadal, who said Monte Carlo and Hamburg were "tournaments with a great history that don't deserve to be downgraded", said De Villiers, a former Disney Television executive, paid too much heed to advisors who did not know enough about the sport. "He's doing things too fast and he should be talking to more tennis people," Nadal said.

Federer described the players' actions in going public as "a little scream for help". He said: "Before we move too quickly in a bad direction let's have a meeting and go forward from there. We would like to protect the sport of tennis. We would like to speak to both of them [ATP and ITF] more often and more seriously than in the past."

The world No 1 added: "They're not the ones in the tennis shorts playing on the court and knowing how demanding Davis Cup and the ATP circuit is."
http://sport.independent.co.uk/tennis/article2455069.ece

Via
04-17-2007, 08:21 AM
thanks for the article and the translation! :eek: how dramatic it was at that press conference! lol the fed-nadal entry (hand in hand?), the combative russian, and ljubicic refusing to sign the papers.....

there's no doubt that mr disney is highly unpopular now with a large number of players and this sentiment is shared with the majority at MTF :)

nobama
04-17-2007, 08:35 AM
and Ljubicic adds : « The Americans never put in the effort to come to Monte Carlo but the ATP thinks that it’s normal that the Europeans appear in Indian Wells and in Miami… »
All I can say to Ljubicic is if he hates coming to the states to play Miami and/or IW and thinks there's a double standard then don't come. Roddick and Blake choose not to play Monte Carlo, so he can chose not to play one of those events. I'd like to see him do it and then we'd find out if there really was a double standard. :rolleyes:

Duchova
04-17-2007, 08:36 AM
:eek: Nikolay, you speak aloud. :worship:

nobama
04-17-2007, 08:47 AM
If the ATP is favoring the US in one decision, does it mean they have to favor in ALL decisions? Is that your basis for why the ATP can definitely not be favoring the US backed tournaments for the TMS decision? Because they did not pick the US instead of London for a different decision? The TMC by the way is a short decision, for 3 years if I am not mistaken, whereas the TMSs are likely there for the pretty long term.
As I've said before I'd like to know the reasons they felt Monte Carlo and Hamburg deserved to be downgraded. I don't buy this 'no US Masters were on the chopping block because ET and Co. have a bias towards North American events'. OK they could have downgraded/scrapped IW, but then what, most European players would travel all the way to the US just to play one event - Miami and then travel back to Europe for the clay court season? That doesn't make sense. Cincy is another one talked about....well I believe there's been talk about creating a combined event with the WTA there. And also, the USTA would fight that very hard since they've done all this work creating this "US Open Series", which has proved to be successful. Perhaps that's what needs to happen in Europe - a similar format like that leading up to RG. Anyway it seems to me that MC (and others) is getting screwed because of this combined event they want to create in Madrid. So downgrading one of the US Masters wouldn't solve that problem.

Action Jackson
04-17-2007, 08:50 AM
Thanks for the translation Casta and the Independent article just confirmed what we already know and the players are saying something about it.

As for Roddick and his buddies not playing Monte Carlo, not much of an issue there.

Action Jackson
04-17-2007, 08:51 AM
All I can say to Ljubicic is if he hates coming to the states to play Miami and/or IW and thinks there's a double standard then don't come. Roddick and Blake choose not to play Monte Carlo, so he can chose not to play one of those events. I'd like to see him do it and then we'd find out if there really was a double standard. :rolleyes:

Is this you or is this Tangerinus.

http://pages.emerson.edu/students/A/Adam_Poulin/captain%20america%20title%20copy.jpg

Saumon
04-17-2007, 08:53 AM
As I've said before I'd like to know the reasons they felt Monte Carlo and Hamburg deserved to be downgraded. I don't buy this 'no US Masters were on the chopping block because ET and Co. have a bias towards North American events'. OK they could have downgraded/scrapped IW, but then what, most European players would travel all the way to the US just to play one event - Miami and then travel back to Europe for the clay court season? That doesn't make sense. Cincy is another one talked about....well I believe there's been talk about creating a combined event with the WTA there. And also, the USTA would fight that very hard since they've done all this work creating this "US Open Series", which has proved to be successful. Perhaps that's what needs to happen in Europe - a similar format like that leading up to RG. Anyway it seems to me that MC (and others) is getting screwed because of this combined event they want to create in Madrid. So downgrading one of the US Masters wouldn't solve that problem.
The only thing I know concerning the US Masters Series is that China tried to buy IW but they failed.

All_Slam_Andre
04-17-2007, 09:31 AM
Barcelona is the home of Spanish tennis and the standard of play at Godo is as high as some of the TMS events. Well the tension between the Catalans and Castillians was the reason Arrese was sacked by Muñoz as DC captain when he had an excellent record.



I agree with that. Barcelona has a 56 man ISG event that gets strong fields year after year, often much stronger than Hamburg. I would have less of a problem with Monte-Carlo being downgraded if it was being replaced by Barcelona, and the two events swapped their TMS and ISG tournament statuses around. Barcelona has outstanding tennis facilities and the best Spanish acadamies (plus to be blunt it is a considerably better city than Madrid). However the fact that both events will be made to suffer by the introduction of a brand new event in Madrid (funded by the despicable Ion Tiriac) really doesn't sit well with me.

Action Jackson
04-17-2007, 09:38 AM
I agree with that. Barcelona has a 56 man ISG event that gets strong fields year after year, often much stronger than Hamburg. I would have less of a problem with Monte-Carlo being downgraded if it was being replaced by Barcelona, and the two events swapped their TMS and ISG tournament statuses around. Barcelona has outstanding tennis facilities and the best Spanish acadamies (plus to be blunt it is a considerably better city than Madrid). However the fact that both events will be made to suffer by the introduction of a brand new event in Madrid (funded by the despicable Ion Tiriac) really doesn't sit well with me.

Barcelona doesn't have as many clay clowns as Hamburg and Rome. Thing is people just look at rankings as to judge the strength of a field, that is especially a mistake when it comes to claycourt tennis. There have been some great finals there as well and they have been reduced to 3 sets.

Yes, it's the home of Spanish tennis, the Casal/Sanchez, Bruguera and other schools and it's a tennis city without a doubt, of course nothing compared to the football club, but you are right both of these events will suffer cause of the mafia don Tiriac wants to control everything.

Funny thing about Tiriac. He is the guy who said I've been ready for round robin for 40 years, well what a man.

scoobs
04-17-2007, 09:41 AM
It's just a shame that this has become so publicly fractious and that trust has fallen to such a low ebb that messages are essentially being sent via the media.

But it looks like it has become necessary.

They do all now need to sit down and hold urgent and prolonged talks to get these issues resolved. This situation cannot be allowed to continue where the management are taking decisions that the players are up in arms about and fundamentally opposed to. They either need to persuade them of the merits of their case or drop the plans.

Veronique
04-17-2007, 01:30 PM
People jumping guns as usual. I remember when it was reported that Nadal and some Spaniards stormed out of the meeting in Miami, some people were too quick to bash them here. Now that it's clear that they have the support of Federer and other players, it has turned into Let's Bash The Ugly American with unfortunately Ljubicic and Davydenko leading the charge. As if the decision to downgrade MC and Hamburg had anything to do with Americans not playing there.

If anything, it's clear an awful lot is being done to accomodate Ron Tiriac and his money to the detriment of the sport's tradition and history. It's commendable to see the Spaniards standing up for MC and Hamburg while they're being baited into a TMS in their own country.

R.Federer
04-17-2007, 03:14 PM
Still no reports of this on ATPtennis.com? :sad:

*Ljubica*
04-17-2007, 03:27 PM
Still no reports of this on ATPtennis.com? :sad:

Well evidently Mr. Disney is on his way to MC now, and will meet with Roger and some other players tonight. Roger was just interviewed on Sky TV after his match against Seppi. He said he had called Mr. D and asked him to come over to meet with the players to try and sort things out as soon as possible.

R.Federer
04-17-2007, 03:36 PM
Well evidently Mr. Disney is on his way to MC now, and will meet with Roger and some other players tonight. Roger was just interviewed on Sky TV after his match against Seppi. He said he had called Mr. D and asked him to come over to meet with the players to try and sort things out as soon as possible.

This should be fun. China has been told they're getting a Masters. If the players get their way, and ATP can't back out of their contracts with Madrid and China, then there will be 10 Masters next year or 2009,

The_Nadal_effect
04-17-2007, 03:50 PM
Is that Mirka lurking behind Federer? She looks so thin in silhouette.

Sunset of Age
04-17-2007, 04:03 PM
Is that Mirka lurking behind Federer? She looks so thin in silhouette.

Yes, that's her indeed! Not as bad as some over here seem to think, eh?
It might be the pose, or even a bit of photoshopping they perhaps did... ;)

Okay. Sorry for derailing the thread. Back on topic.

yana
04-17-2007, 05:05 PM
the two love birds sticking together. :aplot:

tangerine_dream
04-17-2007, 05:08 PM
Ljubo and Nikolay, what a bunch of whiners, waaa! :baby: They should shut up and let Roger and Rafa speak, they are more important players and speak more eloquently. :angel:

mallorn
04-17-2007, 06:41 PM
Neil Harman :yeah: reports from MC.
From The Times
April 17, 2007

Federer and Nadal lead players’ show of solidarity

Neil Harman, Tennis Correspondent, in Monte Carlo

Rafael Nadal wore combat pants, which was perfect attire for the occasion. The world No 2 accompanied Roger Federer to a table in the VIP Village of the Monte Carlo Country Club yesterday and, in a rare show of unity, delivered a message to the sport’s leadership that reverberated through its foundations like a tremor.

Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi were close, but not this close. It would not have happened in the prickly era of John McEnroe and Jimmy Connors. Federer and Nadal, as one, insisted that the pace of change being driven by the ATP, their own association, was too quick, that the consultative process with the players was non-existent.

Neither did they have much regard for the intransigence of the ITF over the dates on which it insists that Davis Cup ties should be played.

It was an extraordinary, spontaneous display of player power. Nadal and Federer decided on their journey to the club on their mode of attack: dignified, sensible and profound. Only twice — in 1988 when, having been denied access to the US Open grounds to hold a player meeting, the ATP met in a Flushing Meadows car park and effectively seized control of the game, and in 1997, when they demanded a redrawing of the US Open — have the men players displayed such esprit de corps.

The essence of their message was one that the authorities have to heed — to carry change, they have first to carry those who are the sharp end, the players.

Federer was the chief spokesman. “We’ve had a change at the top of ATP,” he said of the arrival of Etienne de Villiers as executive chairman and president in January 2006. “I’ve had many, many meetings with him and of course he has his ideas. I wish he would just listen a little bit more to what we have to say. This is a little scream for help.

“We’ve had a lot of issues with the ITF as well, letters sent to them, which told them what we think are the best Davis Cup weeks. They respond that they know better than we do, but they’re not in tennis shorts on the court knowing how demanding the Davis Cup and the ATP circuit is. I wish they would also have more understanding for us.

“Rafa [Nadal] didn’t play this year in Davis Cup and I haven’t been playing some time. There’s a few reasons for that. We just hope that they finally wake up a little bit.

“Many people are worried and because they are worried I think we should just wait for a minute before we move too quickly in a bad direction. It hasn’t happened maybe in the past like this, that players were so open with their opinions and united especially. They always used to say one thing, the other guy would say something else and in the end the ATP and ITF were just rubbing their hands saying, ‘These guys just trying again, but nothing’s happening’ . . . so this time round it’s a bit more serious.”

Quite how serious, we shall discover. The calendar for 2009 is due to be settled in a fortnight, but with lawsuits having been filed in the case of the Monte Carlo and Hamburg Masters Series tournaments over the prospective demotion of their status, there will probably be a delay.

There is a window of opportunity for communication lines to open and the news that De Villiers is heading here today, having initially decided not to attend, suggests that the message has resonated.

News from the courts was equally dispiriting. At the end of the first set of his first-round doubles match with Jamie, his brother, Andy Murray was forced to quit because of a back injury. “It went into spasm and got worse and worse after each game, I’ll have to see how I am tomorrow,” Murray said after he had been helped off court. The British No 1 is due to play Marc Giquel, of France, on Centre Court this afternoon.

Tim Henman lost 7-5, 6-2 to Juan Carlos Ferrero, the 2003 French Open champion from Spain, his third consecutive first-round defeat in a Masters Series event.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article1662788.ece

Metis
04-17-2007, 07:31 PM
Neil Harman :yeah: reports from MC.

Thanks for the article mallorn.

It is really great for the sport that these two get along so well and are willing to act together in this case. Important as it is, the reaction of the other players wouldn't have bothered Mr. Disney that much, had Federer and Nadal decided to remain neutral. Hopefully, this will have some effect in the end...



Roger and Rafa :couple:

:lol:

Sunset of Age
04-17-2007, 07:39 PM
Thanks for the article mallorn.

It is really great for the sport that these two get along so well and are willing to act together in this case. Important as it is, the reaction of the other players wouldn't have bothered Mr. Disney that much, had Federer and Nadal decided to remain neutral. Hopefully, this will have some effect in the end...

Roger and Rafa :couple:

:lol:

Nothing new for me :p :lol:

No, serious: it IS great that they have acted together in this, even more because their personal concerns on possible ATP tour changes might well be conflicting. How lucky we are to have two such wonderful players being the current #1 and #2 AND being great ambassadors for the game of tennis besides! :worship:

Kitty de Sade
04-17-2007, 07:44 PM
Nothing new for me :p :lol:

No, serious: it IS great that they have acted together in this, even more because their personal concerns on possible ATP tour changes might well be conflicting. How lucky we are to have two such wonderful players being the current #1 and #2 AND being great ambassadors for the game of tennis besides! :worship:

I couldn't agree more- it's lovely to be around to see this happen.

http://www.mommiescamelot.com/forum/images/smilies/wave.gif

*julie*
04-17-2007, 09:37 PM
A little interview of Roger (video in french) here: http://video.lequipe.fr/video/iLyROoaftjcq.html

He says: "The ATP had decided not to come here but after yersterday's reactions, they decided to come. We're gonna have a meeting this evening and we will see..."
The journalist: "Will it be helpful?"
Roger: " I think a press conference was not really necessary, I could have called him, but this way, it is certainly more interesting."

Kalliopeia
04-17-2007, 10:27 PM
A little interview of Roger (video in french) here: http://video.lequipe.fr/video/iLyROoaftjcq.html

He says: "The ATP had decided not to come here but after yersterday's reactions, they decided to come. We're gonna have a meeting this evening and we will see..."
The journalist: "Will it be helpful?"
Roger: " I think a press conference was not really necessary, I could have called him, but this way, it is certainly more interesting."

Ha. Awesome. More interesting, indeed.

sawan66278
04-17-2007, 10:54 PM
This solidarity is EXACTLY what the tour needs. Enough with the maddening schedules. Yes, I understand there is quite a bit of money to be won, but if you look at the players unions in other sports (like baseball), the men's game lags FAR behind.

nobama
04-18-2007, 02:13 AM
Is that Mirka lurking behind Federer? She looks so thin in silhouette.It's amazing what photographers can do these days...

nobama
04-18-2007, 02:15 AM
If anything, it's clear an awful lot is being done to accomodate Ron Tiriac and his money to the detriment of the sport's tradition and history. It's commendable to see the Spaniards standing up for MC and Hamburg while they're being baited into a TMS in their own country.:yeah:

nobama
04-18-2007, 02:16 AM
Is this you or is this Tangerinus.

http://pages.emerson.edu/students/A/Adam_Poulin/captain%20america%20title%20copy.jpg
:wavey: I'll certainly take that mantle if she doesn't want to.

Jlee
04-18-2007, 05:23 AM
A little interview of Roger (video in french) here: http://video.lequipe.fr/video/iLyROoaftjcq.html

He says: "The ATP had decided not to come here but after yersterday's reactions, they decided to come. We're gonna have a meeting this evening and we will see..."
The journalist: "Will it be helpful?"
Roger: " I think a press conference was not really necessary, I could have called him, but this way, it is certainly more interesting."

Hehe, nice. :lol:

I'm glad to see the two of them displaying a united front against Disney. I hope it works.

MaryWalsh
04-18-2007, 05:38 AM
been away for a few days. I am SO PLEASED about this press conference with Rafa and Fed. I completely agree that things are moving too fast, that not enough thought is being given to the ramifications of all the ideas and decisions being foisted by Etienne et al. It is absolutely time for the players to speak up as forcefully as necessary to slow things down and have more of a voice in their sport. YAY!