War in Iraq [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

War in Iraq

mtw
04-13-2007, 01:29 PM
Above 600 000 Iraqis civilians were killed
2,5 mln. refugees from Iraq
20-120 new victims daily
Are these people guilty, that they were born in area rich in oil?
US government aims 8 mld dolars monthly for this war


I believe, that there are good poeple and good politicians in this world too.
I don't understand why they do nothing to stop this terror of one politician.
The evil is then, when good people are neutral and make nothing to stop violence and terror.

Jim Jones
04-13-2007, 02:04 PM
600'000 Iraqis dead, yeah right. :lol:
You take the most extreme source, the Lancet and you buy everything it says. I predict that their next count will be just before U.S. Presidential election where they will say more than a million Iraqis have died. Just you wait.

zicofirol
04-13-2007, 02:31 PM
600'000 Iraqis dead, yeah right. :lol:
You take the most extreme source, the Lancet and you buy everything it says. I predict that their next count will be just before U.S. Presidential election where they will say more than a million Iraqis have died. Just you wait.

and if its true its mostly iraqi on iraqi violence, and if anyone thinks the US is making any money of this war, then they have not checked the deficit....

It must say something of a people that when their dictator is removed they turn around and start killing themselves, lol...

Oh and Iran's role in this civil war should not be understated, they are helping Shiite terrorist...

I heard a historian said he testified to congress that the US shouldnt go to war because of the brutal violent history of Iraq, that it has always been united by the force of a dictator or empire and that whenever there was not that tyranical power there was bloodshed, he said unless the US was willing to use the same type of force then it would only turn into an iraqi civil war, he was spot on....

El Legenda
04-13-2007, 03:55 PM
600,000? take a 0 off and thats the real number

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

61,000 to 67,000

El Legenda
04-13-2007, 03:58 PM
US government aims 8 mld dolars monthly for this war
.

US spends $195,000,000 daily on this war.

Julio1974
04-13-2007, 04:00 PM
and if its true its mostly iraqi on iraqi violence, and if anyone thinks the US is making any money of this war, then they have not checked the deficit....



.

That fact is always overlooked.

Sparko1030
04-13-2007, 04:32 PM
First, I'd like to say that I'm on recored as hating this war and that the US ever started it by invading Iraq. I do have to point out that much of the killing now is Iraqi on Iraqi. The US invading Iraq was stupid and just plain wrong but its not US soldiers who are now strapping bombs on themselves to kill civilians....For all the stupidity of the invastion, the Iraqis did have a chance to make a safe, demacratic country. But to do that they would have had to put aside age old differnces and rivaliries and they chose civil war. It was foolish of the Bush adm. to think that would happen, still, it was up to the Iraqis.

Perhaps the only chance Iraq had was to divide it into 3 seperate, soveriegn countries, but the fact still remains, the Iraqi on both sides who are killing fellow Iraqis, have choosen to do so .

I do agree there are never enough people who have the courage to stand up and say when something is wrong. We have some sorry, spineless politicians in this country, but the Iraqis choosing civil war aren't looking that courages these days either.....

JBdV
04-13-2007, 05:47 PM
We have some sorry, spineless politicians in this country, but the Iraqis choosing civil war aren't looking that courages these days either.....

Yes the Iraqis really chose to be in this situation :rolleyes:

zicofirol
04-13-2007, 09:28 PM
Yes the Iraqis really chose to be in this situation :rolleyes:

well they are the one's strapping bombs and killing eachother, did the iraqis chose the invasion? no, are they doing the civil war? yes, I am sure many are just caught in the crossfire, but it is a power struggle between the shiite and sunni.

Sparko1030
04-13-2007, 09:41 PM
Yes the Iraqis really chose to be in this situation :rolleyes:


Of course they didn't choose to be invaded (and, yes, the US decision to do so was wrong), nor did the majority choose Sadam Hussein, yet once they had the chance to form their own government, many chose civil war over finding a way to work together. And those who have, have ruined the chance for peace for those who did desire it. We all get to chose what we do, including the bomb strapping Iraqis.....

vincayou
04-13-2007, 09:46 PM
This war will look bad for the US in history books. Taking out dictators is not a bad idea (even if its always suspicious when this new geopolitical strategy starts in a "oil" country), but I´m still amazed that american citizen thought that a president who hadn´t had the curiousity to go abroad in his life, despite the wealth of his family, would be the right man for this job.

Sparko1030
04-13-2007, 10:00 PM
This war will look bad for the US in history books. Taking out dictators is not a bad idea (even if its always suspicious when this new geopolitical strategy starts in a "oil" country), but I´m still amazed that american citizen thought that a president who hadn´t had the curiousity to go abroad in his life, despite the wealth of his family, would be the right man for this job.


Me too.....I can tell you I never voted for him. I have no real explaination for my fellow citizens who did. :awww: But both times it was close-with 50% voting for and 50% against. Add in those who could have voted but didnt' or voted for Nader and he never truly has had the majority of US citizens behind him. Always remember a non-vote really ends up being a vote for the winner....

mtw
04-23-2007, 01:47 PM
600,000? take a 0 off and thats the real number

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

61,000 to 67,000


100 000 people were killed there till the end of 2003 and now we have 2007. The life in Iraq during occupation is horrible tragedy for civilians. The one thing is certain. The life of these people was quite different before the war.
I don't take care of plans of USA, but I don't understand, why Poland is involved in this illegal war. Iraqis were never our enemies. It is real dishonour for Poland.

mtw
04-23-2007, 02:20 PM
100 000 people were killed there till the end of 2003 and now we have 2007. The life in Iraq during occupation is horrible tragedy for civilians. The one thing is certain. The life of these people was quite different before the war.
I don't take care of plans of USA, but I don't understand, why Poland is engaged in this illegal war. Iraqis were never our enemies. It is real dishonour for Poland. It is very painful and sad for normal Poles. Besides Polish government hides the truth about this war. News about casualties are given about 23, 24:00 and only in local news, never in general news. A few days ago about 200 people were killed, it was given only in local news and it was only written, not showed. But we have many reportages about II world war and former spies. Do we have to wait for the truth about war in Iraq 65 years?
What is the real purpose of the war?

mtw
04-23-2007, 02:40 PM
[url]www.washingonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html


The number of casualties in Iraq - 655 000 according to Washington Post ( 10. 2006 ). And now we have the end of april 2007.
It must be punished, only International Tribune for some politicians, who has brought to this tragedy.

Lillith
04-24-2007, 03:48 AM
and if its true its mostly iraqi on iraqi violence, and if anyone thinks the US is making any money of this war, then they have not checked the deficit....

It must say something of a people that when their dictator is removed they turn around and start killing themselves, lol...

Oh and Iran's role in this civil war should not be understated, they are helping Shiite terrorist...

I heard a historian said he testified to congress that the US shouldnt go to war because of the brutal violent history of Iraq, that it has always been united by the force of a dictator or empire and that whenever there was not that tyranical power there was bloodshed, he said unless the US was willing to use the same type of force then it would only turn into an iraqi civil war, he was spot on....


Iraqi on Iraqi violence brought about by the power vacuum created by the US invasion. If you seriously think that the situation would be the same if the US hadn't invaded, then I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn. Real cheap.


At least you are correct in saying that the US is not making money off this war- if you mean the US government, that is. There are a number of US companies which are making hundreds of millions and even billions of US dollars from this war, thereby bankrupting the treasury along the way. Coincidentally (sure), all those companies have substantial ties to the Bush Family. And the fact that Cheney is still essentially on the Halliburton payroll is never truly dealt with by Bush apologists, and so I am quite certain that such information will again be blithely ignored here as well.



By the way, that bridge is also for sale if you thought that the US invasion of Iraq was about anything other than the petrodollar.

Lillith
04-24-2007, 03:55 AM
US spends $195,000,000 daily on this war.


Only in Bushleague math. The OMB actually says that the war is costing the US about $12 billion per month, far higher than the "official" numbers.


Is it any wonder that we have the worst education system and healthcare access of any industrialized country? We spend more on war toys than the rest of the world combined, yet some who pretend to be Libertarian (zicosomething) ignore such an immense transfer of wealth and corporate welfare. Yeah, the glorious "free market" at work alright.

NyGeL
04-24-2007, 04:05 AM
600,000? take a 0 off and thats the real number

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

61,000 to 67,000

does it matter if they are 600,000 or 60,000?

would you aprove or disapprove this war or any war becouse of this?

Lillith
04-24-2007, 04:16 AM
does it matter if they are 600,000 or 60,000?

would you aprove or disapprove this war or any war becouse of this?


Casualties are easy to overlook when you are safe at home without fear of a draft/conscription. A relative of mine is just returned from his 4th tour in Iraq, yet there are thousands of healthy, college aged fascist supporters of Bush sitting on their ass bloviating about how this was a necessary war and those (insert racial epithet here) people have created their own hell. :rolleyes:


In the US military, there is a group of highly trained special forces in the 101st Airborne Division, so those who hide behind their computers yet support this war have come to be known as the 101st Keyboard Division in our political circles.

Jim Jones
04-24-2007, 12:09 PM
does it matter if they are 600,000 or 60,000?

would you aprove or disapprove this war or any war becouse of this?

Approve :yeah:

Julio1974
04-24-2007, 12:19 PM
does it matter if they are 600,000 or 60,000?

would you aprove or disapprove this war or any war becouse of this?

Actually, my approval or dissaproval of a war has nothing to do with this.

This war is unjust even if only one single civilian had died.

On the other hand, the fight against Nazi Germany was necessary, no matter how many people died.

Svetlana.
04-24-2007, 06:00 PM
This war will look bad for the US in history books. Taking out dictators is not a bad idea (even if its always suspicious when this new geopolitical strategy starts in a "oil" country), but I´m still amazed that american citizen thought that a president who hadn´t had the curiousity to go abroad in his life, despite the wealth of his family, would be the right man for this job.

well said :rolls:
Americans deserve a better president, and hopefully more knowledgeable in foreign affairs.

Svetlana.
04-24-2007, 06:03 PM
Many Americans are ashamed on what's going on in Iraq, but very little they can do until the next election comes.

Black Adam
04-24-2007, 06:28 PM
Spending 1000 billion dollars to destroy a country is just :help: :sad: :eek:
Does it cross Bush's mind that he could have single handedly solved the world's problems like Poverty, Famine, lack of water, jump started Industrialisation in some 3rd world countries.....etc. and of course the USA would have made much profit (since nobody gives without expecting something in return)

But no, sending his countrymen to slaughter and be slaughtered in a pointless war was the better option. He blew the chance of becoming the best President ever.

Jim Jones
04-24-2007, 06:44 PM
Spending 1000 billion dollars to destroy a country is just :help: :sad: :eek:
Does it cross Bush's mind that he could have single handedly solved the world's problems like Poverty, Famine, lack of water, jump started Industrialisation in some 3rd world countries.....etc. and of course the USA would have made much profit (since nobody gives without expecting something in return)

But no, sending his countrymen to slaughter and be slaughtered in a pointless war was the better option. He blew the chance of becoming the best President ever.
U.S. cannot singlely solve world's problems like famine etc....It is up to the developing nations to have economic policies that are suitable for its people.....Iraq was a mess before the invasion and since its creation by your people. Why did you have the sunni arabs rule over everyone else? You should have seperated the kurdish areas and had a shiite rule over arab Iraq. Maybe there would not have been the Iranian revolution since the shiite nations would have exchanged info on how to rule suitably......So easy to blame the Americans when you people have your own share of damage.

Sparko1030
04-24-2007, 10:19 PM
Many Americans are ashamed on what's going on in Iraq, but very little they can do until the next election comes.

:) Thanks for saying that. That is exactly how many of us feel. Some have come to that conclusion later than others but the enormity of this tragic war and how the US has mismanaged it is dawning on the majority of us now.

Sparko1030
04-24-2007, 10:44 PM
U.S. cannot singlely solve world's problems like famine etc....It is up to the developing nations to have economic policies that are suitable for its people.....Iraq was a mess before the invasion and since its creation by your people. Why did you have the sunni arabs rule over everyone else? You should have seperated the kurdish areas and had a shiite rule over arab Iraq. Maybe there would not have been the Iranian revolution since the shiite nations would have exchanged info on how to rule suitably......So easy to blame the Americans when you people have your own share of damage.

While I don't condone our invading Iraq, it is very true that is was already the product of bungling, outside interfernce. 90 yrs ago, Great Britian had its own plan for the area that ignored the realities of rival factions. Too bad we never learn the lessons of history....

Svetlana.
04-25-2007, 12:44 AM
:) Thanks for saying that. That is exactly how many of us feel. Some have come to that conclusion later than others but the enormity of this tragic war and how the US has mismanaged it is dawning on the majority of us now.

:hug:

mtw
04-25-2007, 01:17 PM
This war is unimaginable tragedy for Iraqi nation. I am very sorry, that some Polish politician joined Polish troops to this illegal, bloody war. The deepest sympathy to Iraqis. Everything, what is going on in Iraq now, is the blame of occupying states. It is unquestionable.
My local news informed on Saturday, that occupying troops built a wall in Baghdad to separate Sunnits ( during II world war the same wall was built in Poland to separate Jews from Poles. It was called ghetto ). It is really scandalous, what they do there.
This mess, which is now in Iraq is the effect of elimination of army and police in Iraq after ,,victory" of coalition troops. Why did they do that? To facilitate activity of extremists? And one of the the main cause of Iraqi death are actually car traps with explosives. Then the only logical solvation is to give ban of parking in the near of human agglomerations - markets, shops, houses, schools, offices ( Is it so difficult to think it out ?) and remove all deserted cars. And the second cause of death are coalition ( in majority American ) troops . Then it is logical, than they should leave Iraq.

zicofirol
04-25-2007, 11:57 PM
Iraqi on Iraqi violence brought about by the power vacuum created by the US invasion. If you seriously think that the situation would be the same if the US hadn't invaded, then I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn. Real cheap.

At least you are correct in saying that the US is not making money off this war- if you mean the US government, that is. There are a number of US companies which are making hundreds of millions and even billions of US dollars from this war, thereby bankrupting the treasury along the way. Coincidentally (sure), all those companies have substantial ties to the Bush Family. And the fact that Cheney is still essentially on the Halliburton payroll is never truly dealt with by Bush apologists, and so I am quite certain that such information will again be blithely ignored here as well.

By the way, that bridge is also for sale if you thought that the US invasion of Iraq was about anything other than the petrodollar.
Is that some sort of justification for the violence? any semi-rational society would see this as an opportunity to finally break away from centuries of tyranical leaders, instead they choose to defend their sect and murder as many as they can from the other.
And when did I say this violence was not created because Saddam was in power? Iraqis when not ruled by tyrants where always infighting, this is nothing new...

War profiteering is nothing new, it goes back ages, and can still be seen in the 20th century, your not making a stunning revelation there. But if you think the war was made solely to make money for X company or X amount of companies your delusional...


Only in Bushleague math. The OMB actually says that the war is costing the US about $12 billion per month, far higher than the "official" numbers.


Is it any wonder that we have the worst education system and healthcare access of any industrialized country? We spend more on war toys than the rest of the world combined, yet some who pretend to be Libertarian (zicosomething) ignore such an immense transfer of wealth and corporate welfare. Yeah, the glorious "free market" at work alright.

LOl your only reinforcing his argument, mtw was saying the USA was making profit from the war, lol...

The USA is top 3 if not #1, when it comes to per student spending in education, so the money has nothing to do with, it wouldnt hurt to get a little informed before writing something...
Worst Healthcare of any industrialized nation :o :rolleyes:

lol, who is pretending to be libertarian? WTF do you mean with that.

from youre statement you clearly do not have an understanding of what the free market is, please read any of the following and then you may continue your rant against so called free markets:
http://www.amazon.com/Capitalism-Ideal-Ayn-Rand/dp/0451147952/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-4661250-0503958?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177543604&sr=8-1
http://www.lfb.com/index.php?deptid=836&parentid=40&stocknumber=TS8764&page=1&itemsperpage=24
http://www.amazon.com/Free-Choose-Statement-Milton-Friedman/dp/0156334607/ref=sr_1_1/104-4661250-0503958?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177544382&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Economics-One-Lesson-Shortest-Understand/dp/0517548232/ref=pd_sim_b_5/104-4661250-0503958?ie=UTF8&qid=1177544382&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Road-Serfdom-Fiftieth-Anniversary/dp/0226320618/ref=pd_sim_b_2/104-4661250-0503958?ie=UTF8&qid=1177544382&sr=1-1

Lillith
04-26-2007, 02:07 AM
Is that some sort of justification for the violence? any semi-rational society would see this as an opportunity to finally break away from centuries of tyranical leaders, instead they choose to defend their sect and murder as many as they can from the other.
And when did I say this violence was not created because Saddam was in power? Iraqis when not ruled by tyrants where always infighting, this is nothing new...

War profiteering is nothing new, it goes back ages, and can still be seen in the 20th century, your not making a stunning revelation there. But if you think the war was made solely to make money for X company or X amount of companies your delusional...



LOl your only reinforcing his argument, mtw was saying the USA was making profit from the war, lol...

The USA is top 3 if not #1, when it comes to per student spending in education, so the money has nothing to do with, it wouldnt hurt to get a little informed before writing something...
Worst Healthcare of any industrialized nation :o :rolleyes:

lol, who is pretending to be libertarian? WTF do you mean with that.

from youre statement you clearly do not have an understanding of what the free market is, please read any of the following and then you may continue your rant against so called free markets:
http://www.amazon.com/Capitalism-Ideal-Ayn-Rand/dp/0451147952/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-4661250-0503958?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177543604&sr=8-1
http://www.lfb.com/index.php?deptid=836&parentid=40&stocknumber=TS8764&page=1&itemsperpage=24
http://www.amazon.com/Free-Choose-Statement-Milton-Friedman/dp/0156334607/ref=sr_1_1/104-4661250-0503958?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177544382&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Economics-One-Lesson-Shortest-Understand/dp/0517548232/ref=pd_sim_b_5/104-4661250-0503958?ie=UTF8&qid=1177544382&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Road-Serfdom-Fiftieth-Anniversary/dp/0226320618/ref=pd_sim_b_2/104-4661250-0503958?ie=UTF8&qid=1177544382&sr=1-1



You quote Bastiat in your signature but claim you're not a libertarian? Alrighty then.

The US may spend more than many countries on "education", but it's important to note where much of the money goes- administration. The public school system's equivalent of the corporate world's crew of officers. And over the last decade, more and more money is being redirected from actual learning and forced into standardized testing which does nothing but punish a district for actually daring to teach students to think, rather than learn how to take a test. Just as we spend more on our healthcare system and get less care; instead, we throw good money after bad into a for profit system that should have been dismantled years ago. The only "industrialized" country to rank below the US in access to healthcare and qualtiy of care? Mexico.

My undergraduate minor was in economics, and though that may have been many years ago, I still have more than a passing understanding of the free market. And it isn't a truly free market or capitalist system when companies are leaching off the public treasury for their profits. At least not the true definition of capitalism; unfortunately, it has come to be the American one.

At least you have good taste in players, zico.

zicofirol
04-26-2007, 03:32 AM
You quote Bastiat in your signature but claim you're not a libertarian? Alrighty then.

The US may spend more than many countries on "education", but it's important to note where much of the money goes- administration. The public school system's equivalent of the corporate world's crew of officers. And over the last decade, more and more money is being redirected from actual learning and forced into standardized testing which does nothing but punish a district for actually daring to teach students to think, rather than learn how to take a test. Just as we spend more on our healthcare system and get less care; instead, we throw good money after bad into a for profit system that should have been dismantled years ago. The only "industrialized" country to rank below the US in access to healthcare and qualtiy of care? Mexico.

My undergraduate minor was in economics, and though that may have been many years ago, I still have more than a passing understanding of the free market. And it isn't a truly free market or capitalist system when companies are leaching off the public treasury for their profits. At least not the true definition of capitalism; unfortunately, it has come to be the American one.

At least you have good taste in players, zico.
The US spends more than enough on students, the problem is the education standards and the PC wave that has gripped schools, its also pretty much a government monopoly over education, where if you live in a certain area your assigned to a school and cant do much about it, that isnt exactly motivation for schools to succeed.

Ill take the pay system of health care (where the quality is still the best in the world, or in the top 5) over the government taking my income then rationing health care to me and telling me its free, no thanks.
ANd its no coincidence that as the government has increased its regulations and influence on the health care industry prices have shot up... no surprise there... I cant believe you seem to distrust government so much but are perfectly comfortable putting your health in the hand of bureaucrats, look at any industry in the US where government intervention is minimum and you will see a much more efficient distribution of goods than in any industry with greater government regulation.

As for being libertarian, I consider myself more of a classic liberal than a libertarian but to not complicate things my views would be closest to the "l"ibertarians...
We have gotten off topic here so this will be my last post on these subjects, in this thread.

mtw
04-26-2007, 12:23 PM
US troops and other occupying troops should leave Iraq immedietely.
This war is terrible tragedy for Iraqi civilians, who suffer so much and it gives nothing to invaders. Only necessity of paying reparations for casualties' families in the future and maybe International Tribune for originators. This civilians and the majority of insurgens have nothing common with terrorism. They are innocent. And the only ,,success'' of Bush is creation the world more dangerous, than it was before the war. This man is really evil.

Sparko1030
04-26-2007, 02:53 PM
yes, yes, yes, the war was an awful, stupid act on our part, very few here are arguing that point. The question now is what will happen if/when we do leave. My emotions say we should leave now, but since most of the violence is now sunni vs shiite, will the US leaving make things better between them or will the violence on eachother get worse? I don't know what is the best thing for Iraq now. We have made a mess, no question about it, but what is the best thing to do now since we can't go back in time and change what we've done? I dont' have the answer, calls for the US to pull out immeadiatly seem to overlook the sectarian violence and I have no confidnece in the Bush administration to come up with a solution that works either. I wish the people of Iraq could live in peace but how do they get to that point now? Condem us all you want, but what what is the solution now? Assigning blame and feeling superior is the easy part, now how about a solution.

The only thing I think has a chance is to make allow 3 seperate countries to form according to ethinic/reliegious sects but I know that the politics of the surrounding countries won't allow that either.

Svetlana.
04-26-2007, 05:17 PM
Crisis in Iraq is not a military solution anymore. From now on Diplomats and Politicians from all sides should get together and find the best solution to resolve the chaos in a region. Including all coalition forces, Iraqi government, and Iraqi neighbors.

Jim Jones
04-26-2007, 06:11 PM
The only thing I think has a chance is to make allow 3 seperate countries to form according to ethinic/reliegious sects but I know that the politics of the surrounding countries won't allow that either.
Yes or at least 2 parts, one Arab the other Kurdish. The int. community better allow Kirkurk to vote on whether to merge with kurdistan or not. They are so motivated to have kosovo get its independance that they should get things right in Iraq.
The other surrounding nations can go to hell if you ask me. In any case Kurdistan is like kosovo, independant in all but name. And both should stay like that. Russia will ensure that kosovo does not get its indepenance and int. community will do same with Kurdistan.

Warrior
04-26-2007, 07:04 PM
100 000 people were killed there till the end of 2003 and now we have 2007. The life in Iraq during occupation is horrible tragedy for civilians. The one thing is certain. The life of these people was quite different before the war.
I don't take care of plans of USA, but I don't understand, why Poland is engaged in this illegal war. Iraqis were never our enemies. It is real dishonour for Poland. It is very painful and sad for normal Poles. Besides Polish government hides the truth about this war. News about casualties are given about 23, 24:00 and only in local news, never in general news. A few days ago about 200 people were killed, it was given only in local news and it was only written, not showed. But we have many reportages about II world war and former spies. Do we have to wait for the truth about war in Iraq 65 years?
What is the real purpose of the war?


Why? Because Poland has been a US ally for quite a while. America played a major role in Poland's breaking out of Iron Curtain. There are certainly political and economic ties at stake.

How old are you? My guess is that younger Poles don't have the same aversion for the Soviet Union and therefore not such staunch supporters of USA. They are more European-minded. That's where the opposition to war come from.

dorkino
04-27-2007, 07:16 PM
Originally posted By mtw
What is the real purpose of the war?

1- Finding out the extra dangerous "Massively destructive weapons" of Iraq and Ofcourse destroying them.

2- Handing "peace" and "Freedom" to all the iraqi civilians via external invasive forces and getting rid of the Dictator Saddam Hussein , the previous army and all former iraqi political names, substituting them with -agreed upon-names.

3- War on "Terror". Suddenly, Saddam Hussein was happened to have strong relations to ''Al-qaida". By a "simple calculation"; getting rid of the dictator in iraq , would definitely demolish terror supplies, power and hence peace prevails.

These were the announced targets of "war in Iraq".
And despite wide objections on the very obviously silly targets, The US and "Allied governoments went on with their war under these "announced" reasons.

Results: 1- Compared to the US's used weapons in this war, No Such massive destructive weapons were ever found in Iraq.

2- The Formerly supported (-by the US and allies in the 80s-) Saddam Hussien was executed for the crimes he did against humanity in the same very 80s. Together with the Decomposition of army, and all previous political symbols with a huge political vacancy left open in a country that is historically known for its diversity, tribal variations and yet cultural and economic wealth.

3- Budding of tens if not hundreds of terroristic groups from alqaida and other groups, foreign death groups with daily awful crimes, against scientists and cultured symbols and civilians of all diversities. Chaos is their main goal for political reasons regardless of all BS talkings about religious, stereo diversities.

4- Release of resisting groups fighting the US and allies' occupying forces and the very weak governomental members. Almost daily processes are done against them. (The Media mostly doesn't differentiate between the previous two groups while there's a difference).

5- With the absence of powerful,trusted ,wise iraqi persons in responsibilty, The growth of more conflicts between different iraqi civilians, which is ironically thought to end by another genius US desicion of builiding a wall around the Sunnis to stop violence. :retard:.

Taking a look over the announced reasons: None of them is and 'll ever be accomplished. Not to mention under external occupation forces with totally different culture, history and of course aims. NOW, The ONLY GOOD thing about it is that Bush and his allies' reason in Iraq turned out to be completely retarded and almostly all of their lies are exposed .

The Real Reasons: Taking a good control of that area rich in Oil and Money,mostly by dividing it to smaller areas each with a good punch of conflicts in between but with -always in needy- relations to the United States. Allies including western governoments were/are wishing to get their share in the party. Allies from the arabian governoments are too weak with their brittle internal positions to think about opposing the idea.
i.e.; Shortly:IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY AND POWER

And Taking a look over the real reasons:: Unfortunately for the iraqis ,So Far, Iraq is heading towards more division and weakness. I think it 's unwise to say the real reasons are not accomplished, despite the presence of some hinders (from the american point of view) here and there like the iranian role (which is by the way magnified X100 times in the media), And the groups resisting the occupying forces.

The democrats only sound wiser as they just want to decrease american casualities but it's never about true total exit from Iraq and leaving the iraqis or handle their own wealth and land.

YET, What's left to be count on not making this division all come true is what remains in the nationalism of the iraqis themselves and their desire/or not to keep Iraq united. Even with all that's been during Saddam's era, It's a fact that Sunnis and Shiites were living together and married from each others.Even during the Iran-Iraq war, Most of the iraqi army were Shiites despite all what's said about the relations of Shiites with Iran.

In Short,Yes lies are exposed, Bush and allies' ideas seem defeated with the foolish way of handling things there , But inspite of all this The US is not getting hands away out of Iraq. Not by its own will , at least not now and not for a long time. Many here has already talked about the gains behind this war. And no ,They're not moral holy gains.

IMO:When 'll all this crazy mess end and what'll be left for the iraqis after it, majorly depends on the iraqis themselves and to lesser degree on sincere/ unsincere neighbours. :shrug:

Jim Jones
04-27-2007, 07:29 PM
[B]1- - The Formerly supported (-by the US and allies in the 80s-) Saddam Hussien was executed for the crimes he did against humanity in the same very 80s. Together with the Decomposition of army, and all previous political symbols with a huge political vacancy left open in a country that is historically known for its diversity, tribal variations and yet cultural and economic wealth.

So to you, iraq was a land where milk and honey flowed. :lol:
You re correct, the coutnry is diverse. But it was ruled by the minority sunni arabs. Now thanks to Bush, Kudistan has regained its autonomy and shiites have power in their region. FYI before your time, Hussein unleashed chemical weapons on kurds and committed genocide against shiites and Kurds. The army was mostly sunni arab and would they serve shiites, I doubt it.

Sparko1030
04-27-2007, 07:55 PM
Yes or at least 2 parts, one Arab the other Kurdish. The int. community better allow Kirkurk to vote on whether to merge with kurdistan or not. They are so motivated to have kosovo get its independance that they should get things right in Iraq.
The other surrounding nations can go to hell if you ask me. In any case Kurdistan is like kosovo, independant in all but name. And both should stay like that. Russia will ensure that kosovo does not get its indepenance and int. community will do same with Kurdistan.


I agree with you 100% on Kurdistan-I admit I'm worried what will happen there though. What should happen is rarely what does in these cases....

dorkino
04-27-2007, 08:44 PM
Posted by JimJones
So to you, iraq was a land where milk and honey flowed. :lol: \

Actually yes, It has Milk, honey, Dates and OIL too. It's not the Niger. Never in Doubt. :)

dorkino
04-27-2007, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by Jim Jones
You re correct, the coutnry is diverse. But it was ruled by the minority sunni arabs. Now thanks to Bush, Kudistan has regained its autonomy and shiites have power in their region. FYI before your time, Hussein unleashed chemical weapons on kurds and committed genocide against shiites and Kurds. The army was mostly sunni arab and would they serve shiites, I doubt it.

Simply Inaccurate info. Bad memory is a dangerous media problem sometimes. :)

TNX1.0E6TOPCA
04-28-2007, 08:42 AM
I read in l'Illustré of April 11, 2007 a swiss weekly magazine, that 816 Iraqis arrived in Switzerland in 2006 (468 in 2005). 2/3 of the refugees are Kurds and the main demands come from single men, all citing huge insecurity issues in the country. Iraqis are the third group asking for political asylum in Switzerland, after Serbians and Erithreans.

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sign/sign0015.gif

TNX1.0E6TOPCA
04-28-2007, 01:26 PM
So to you, iraq was a land where milk and honey flowed. :lol:
You re correct, the coutnry is diverse. But it was ruled by the minority sunni arabs. Now thanks to Bush, Kudistan has regained its autonomy and shiites have power in their region. FYI before your time, Hussein unleashed chemical weapons on kurds and committed genocide against shiites and Kurds. The army was mostly sunni arab and would they serve shiites, I doubt it.


@ Jim Jones you are Swiss? living in Geneva -with more than 85 nationalities living there- ? oh really? :scratch: :confused: :eek: some of your posts are really schocking, at least for a Swiss native ... if you are.

anyway you are on my ignore list :o and this for a long time now, not especially for this thread "War in Iraq".

fadou
04-28-2007, 02:26 PM
war in iraq is a disaster; i'm very sad for all those who lost a family member or a friend

of course war is never the good solution and the declaration of war was very quick instead of reflect a little bit about geopolitics in mideast

iraq is complex country and bush goal to bring "easily" peace in this country is stupid
:rolleyes:
shame on bush

TNX1.0E6TOPCA
04-28-2007, 03:21 PM
so true, alas... The Bush checklist :sad:

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/6183/bushchecklisthh1.jpg

Jim Jones
04-28-2007, 06:35 PM
@ Jim Jones you are Swiss? living in Geneva -with more than 85 nationalities living there- ? oh really? :scratch: :confused: :eek: some of your posts are really schocking, at least for a Swiss native ... if you are.

anyway you are on my ignore list :o and this for a long time now, not especially for this thread "War in Iraq".
Oui j'habite à Genève. Are Swiss supposed to think in a certain way?.....I don't know why you are telling me that you are putting me on your ignore list. I don't think I ever corresponded with you until this message wihich is more for others to see then you. I was amused by this message of yours. Hopefully when you grow up you will laugh at some of the things you said. ;)

TNX1.0E6TOPCA
04-28-2007, 07:45 PM
Oui j'habite à Genève. Are Swiss supposed to think in a certain way?.....I don't know why you are telling me that you are putting me on your ignore list. I don't think I ever corresponded with you until this message wihich is more for others to see then you. I was amused by this message of yours. Hopefully when you grow up you will laugh at some of the things you said. ;)

as you stated... we never corresponded on mtf... that's certainly why you bad repped me once, just for the pleasure to bad rep me. :wavey:

TNX1.0E6TOPCA
04-28-2007, 09:51 PM
... and i could check that you bad repped me one more time today :D

Jim Jones
04-28-2007, 10:46 PM
... and i could check that you bad repped me one more time today :D
Yes it seems that I have grown fond of you. :lol:
Well you and I have one thing in common. We say the opposite of what we do. Me in contacting you and you by not putting me on your ignore list as you said.

By the way you imply that I am an extremist by things that I say. It is usually those that are paranoid like you that are the extremists. MCarthy was one and he wanted everyone to think like him. You are a spitting mirror image of him. You want everyone to have same beliefs as you do and expect all Swiss to think alike. Clearly you are not Swiss and yes many nationalities live in Geneva just like in many other cities. Anyway nice knowing you. :wavey:

mtw
04-29-2007, 01:40 PM
yes, yes, yes, the war was an awful, stupid act on our part, very few here are arguing that point. The question now is what will happen if/when we do leave. My emotions say we should leave now, but since most of the violence is now sunni vs shiite, will the US leaving make things better between them or will the violence on eachother get worse? I don't know what is the best thing for Iraq now. We have made a mess, no question about it, but what is the best thing to do now since we can't go back in time and change what we've done? I dont' have the answer, calls for the US to pull out immeadiatly seem to overlook the sectarian violence and I have no confidnece in the Bush administration to come up with a solution that works either. I wish the people of Iraq could live in peace but how do they get to that point now? Condem us all you want, but what what is the solution now? Assigning blame and feeling superior is the easy part, now how about a solution.

The only thing I think has a chance is to make allow 3 seperate countries to form according to ethinic/reliegious sects but I know that the politics of the surrounding countries won't allow that either.

Sorry, but I think, that You are not right. Firstly, You must observe, that Iraqi civilians are killed only in zone occupied by Americans ( no in zone of British or Polish troops. Insurgens kill soldiers from occupying states in ,,so called'' our zones, but no civilians). Even, if terrorists from Al-Qaeda fight against Americans, It is very strange way of fight, that they make it in such bestial way ( killing civilians and Iraqis. Are these extremists from Saudi Arabia or other states? ). And It is very amazing. I've read, that some people suppose, that American secret services know more about terrorists from Al - Qaeda, than it can be supposed. It seems, that paradoxically Al-Qaeda terrorists favour Americans. It should be explained. You must remember, that this war was based from the begining on lies - firstly somebody said, that there was chemical weapon there, then nuclear weapon. There were no weapon of mass destruction there. It was normal, islamic - secular state. There were probably no terrorists from Al-Qaeda there. They came there after liquidation of Iraqi troops and police. It will not be domestic war after withdrawal of occupying troops and especially Americans. Probably it is the next lie of pro war propaganda. Americans and other occupying troops are not guarantor of stabilisation. They are only the guarantor of conflicts there. 60-200 people are killed daily in American zone. Are these soldirs guarantors of peace and stabilisation there? Really not.
The only solution is leaving Iraq.
All ( majority )Iraqi people are Muslims and they find the common solution. This state will not have to be divided in three parts. I see, that some Americans desire the oil of Iraqis. It is really pathetic. I suppose, that majority of Iraqis are during and after this war antiamerican much more, than they were before the war and it can be good enough to unification for them.

Sparko1030
04-30-2007, 02:43 AM
mtw-you are so sure of all the answers. You say I am not right (I dont' argue that since all I do is question and wonder what to do), so I can be honest and tell you I think your are not looking honestly at the whole picture now.

If you read my post carefully, you will know I never supported the invasion of Iraq by the US. I never believed in the weapons of mass destruction lies. I wish we never had invaded Iraq. I realize that Al Quieda want' in Iraq before we invaded-there was only hate and mistrust b/t Hussein and Al Q. What I did was ask for a solution now and you say there is only one. You may be right-perhaps our troops leaving would end the inssuregent violence, although I wonder if it would make a differnece to the sectarian violence going on. I dont' buy what I think your saying about what US soldiers are doing there. I dont' trust the CIA and that ilk but I know even Rumsfeld couldn't get way with using US soldiers to do such work.

In my post I don't say I have the answers, I only have questions right now. I don't know the correct course to peace at this time. I do know that peace can not happen as long as people like you ignore the fact that the sunnis and the shiites pretty much hate eachother-that's another mistake the Bushies made. And remember that all sides will promote their adgendas with propaganda. The US did not invent it -its been around since be birth of politics so make sure of your sources and question all.

Jlee
04-30-2007, 05:43 AM
Does anyone really think that if the US pulled out at this moment, positive things would begin to happen in Iraq? We've created a power vacuum, and leaving the country to destroy itself doesn't seem like the responsible thing to do after. But is there a solution? Is Iraq doomed either way?

These are the questions I have. I hear the Bush-hating rants about the need to set a date and pull out right now. Sure, American soldiers will stop dying. But what about Iraq and its people? We started something, we have to finish it. Unless we're all somehow informed enough to know that there is absolutely nothing that the US presence is doing there.

Jim Jones
04-30-2007, 12:24 PM
Sorry, but I think, that You are not right. Firstly, You must observe, that Iraqi civilians are killed only in zone occupied by Americans ( no in zone of British or Polish troops. Insurgens kill soldiers from occupying states in ,,so called'' our zones, but no civilians). Even, if terrorists from Al-Qaeda fight against Americans, It is very strange way of fight, that they make it in such bestial way ( killing civilians and Iraqis. Are these extremists from Saudi Arabia or other states? ). And It is very amazing. I've read, that some people suppose, that American secret services know more about terrorists from Al - Qaeda, than it can be supposed. It seems, that paradoxically Al-Qaeda terrorists favour Americans. It should be explained. You must remember, that this war was based from the begining on lies - firstly somebody said, that there was chemical weapon there, then nuclear weapon. There were no weapon of mass destruction there. It was normal, islamic - secular state. There were probably no terrorists from Al-Qaeda there. They came there after liquidation of Iraqi troops and police. It will not be domestic war after withdrawal of occupying troops and especially Americans. Probably it is the next lie of pro war propaganda. Americans and other occupying troops are not guarantor of stabilisation. They are only the guarantor of conflicts there. 60-200 people are killed daily in American zone. Are these soldirs guarantors of peace and stabilisation there? Really not.
The only solution is leaving Iraq.
All ( majority )Iraqi people are Muslims and they find the common solution. This state will not have to be divided in three parts. I see, that some Americans desire the oil of Iraqis. It is really pathetic. I suppose, that majority of Iraqis are during and after this war antiamerican much more, than they were before the war and it can be good enough to unification for them.
You come up with some interesting things but you must look deeper into the context. For instance, who are those that are doing most of the damage? It is the Sunni Arabs where over 90% of the bombings are committed by them. Why are they so lethal? Becasue they are funded by the sunnia arab states. Since U.S. gets along well with many of these states, this is kind of hushed up excpet for Syria which has poor relations with U.S. But nations like Saudi Arabia probably give funding to these terrorists. So the Americans are msotly in sunni Arab regions where there is most instability. But remember, American troops are also in Kurdish areas which is the most secure part of Iraq.

You know that all Iraqis are not Muslims. I saw the word majority slipped in. You should still have crossed out the all. It's like me saying that all Polish people are Christians. We know that is not quite true.

I am glad that you acknowledge that non Sunni Arab parts of Iraq are more stable then Sunni Arab parts. Thus Iraq is not as much a mess as many would think it is. Most bombings are in Baghdad and sorrounding areas but Basra, the 2nd largest city in Iraq is mostly stable. So I believe that media tends to hype up things. Sudan, Congo are far more unstable and bloody then Iraq.

mtw
05-01-2007, 10:53 AM
You come up with some interesting things but you must look deeper into the context. For instance, who are those that are doing most of the damage? It is the Sunni Arabs where over 90% of the bombings are committed by them. Why are they so lethal? Becasue they are funded by the sunnia arab states. Since U.S. gets along well with many of these states, this is kind of hushed up excpet for Syria which has poor relations with U.S. But nations like Saudi Arabia probably give funding to these terrorists. So the Americans are msotly in sunni Arab regions where there is most instability. But remember, American troops are also in Kurdish areas which is the most secure part of Iraq.

You know that all Iraqis are not Muslims. I saw the word majority slipped in. You should still have crossed out the all. It's like me saying that all Polish people are Christians. We know that is not quite true.

I am glad that you acknowledge that non Sunni Arab parts of Iraq are more stable then Sunni Arab parts. Thus Iraq is not as much a mess as many would think it is. Most bombings are in Baghdad and sorrounding areas but Basra, the 2nd largest city in Iraq is mostly stable. So I believe that media tends to hype up things. Sudan, Congo are far more unstable and bloody then Iraq.

The chef of Iraqi Al-Qaeda is dead. He was no Iraqi. He was from Egypt. So it is not true, that Iraqis are killing Iraqis. It is probably, that he was killed by insurgens.
The war in Iraq is real bloody, illegal war. And my state takes part in this illegal war. It is very painful for people, who are honorable and normal. And the difference between bloody war in Congo, Sudan and Iraq relies on this, that so called western states, which think of theirselves, that they are democratic, and civilized, make the same things, as people, who are barbarians and criminals. It is clear, that they are barbarians and criminals too. And they should be punished, cause of this war in International Tribune.
It is sure, that majority of Iraqis are Muslims and not only Muslims, but antiamerican Muslims. This can lead for unification. Occupying troops has no interest in these state and they should eave it now. The oil should be bought honorably for money and not stolen. Nobody wants bloody oil, which was atoned with blood of 650000 innocent people.

mtw
05-01-2007, 11:12 AM
Does anyone really think that if the US pulled out at this moment, positive things would begin to happen in Iraq? We've created a power vacuum, and leaving the country to destroy itself doesn't seem like the responsible thing to do after. But is there a solution? Is Iraq doomed either way?

These are the questions I have. I hear the Bush-hating rants about the need to set a date and pull out right now. Sure, American soldiers will stop dying. But what about Iraq and its people? We started something, we have to finish it. Unless we're all somehow informed enough to know that there is absolutely nothing that the US presence is doing there.


Nothing will happen after withdrewal of occupying troops.
When were Nazi troops overpowered in Europe, has something real bad happen? Of course not. Poland was conquered by 2 states during II world war ( Nazi and Stalin troops). They killed civilians and insurgens, built ghettos and other terrible things. Iraq was attacked by 2 states ( US, Great Britain And Poland, because some former dishonorable Polish leaders scented out interests for theirselves) ). Is it fair? Bush troops built ghetto in Baghdad, killed civilians and insurgens, as Nazi and Stalin troops in Poland in the past. Do You not see the resemblances? Bush has good intention. You know Hitler too and Milosevic too. They thought, that they are visionaries and they make it only for own nations. But we know, that they are evil and we have to dissaproved it. We are honorable people and we must understand, that all people ( Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists ) want to live in own independent states and have the same basic needs, as we have ( Sunnits and Shiis and other nations in Iraq): the right to living, right to safeness, right to property. They have another culture,religion, but they are the same people, as we are.

TNX1.0E6TOPCA
05-01-2007, 11:43 AM
today in the news

Blair's decade in office: a legacy of war and waste?

By Prasun Sonwalkar, London, May 1 : As British Prime Minister Tony Blair and the ruling Labour party celebrate the 10th anniversary of coming to power Tuesday, critics are beginning to call his decade in office as one of "war and waste".

Blair last week outlined his 10-year legacy in a dossier to his Labour MPs, but not a few have begun to recall Enoch Powell's prophecy that all political careers end in failure.

If Blair's dossier set out the positive side of his legacy, others believe that the legacy of the last 10 years will be simply "war and waste", a reflection of the public opinion on Blair's decision to go to war in Iraq as well as a 160 percent rise in personal debt to 1.3 trillion pounds.

A poll by The Independent Tuesday revealed that 69 percent of British people believe that Blair will be most remembered for the 2003 military intervention in Iraq that has drawn considerable criticism from within the Labour party as well as outside it.

TNX1.0E6TOPCA
05-01-2007, 11:49 AM
i second mtw's point of view :worship:

anyway it's too late... from the beginning we all know it will be a disaster, a future Lebanon.... and I remember George Bush celebrating victory on the aircraft carrier just a few days after invasion... we are now in 2007 and see what happens :sad:

Bilbo
05-01-2007, 10:35 PM
U.S. President George W. Bush vetoes a war spending bill which includes a timetable for withdrawing troops from Iraq.



As expected. What an idiot he is.

fenomeno2111
05-02-2007, 04:32 AM
U.S. President George W. Bush vetoes a war spending bill which includes a timetable for withdrawing troops from Iraq.



As expected. What an idiot he is.

Couldn't agree more. Just hearing the 'reasons for vetoing the bill' made me sick. Of course at the end of his little speech he had to mention the dangers to America if an early withdrawal happened. We would be easy prey for 'terrorists' and Al-Qaeda of course has strong ties with Iraq, and Iraq was behind 9-11!!!!
I can't believe this nation still takes this guy as our president, what a shame! I wonder what will this horrible 8 years for America will be remembered in the future...

thea_aeth
05-02-2007, 04:57 AM
Nothing will happen after withdrewal of occupying troops.
When were Nazi troops overpowered in Europe, has something real bad happen? Of course not. Poland was conquered by 2 states during II world war ( Nazi and Stalin troops). They killed civilians and insurgens, built ghettos and other terrible things. Iraq was attacked by 2 states ( US, Great Britain And Poland, because some former dishonorable Polish leaders scented out interests for theirselves) ). Is it fair? Bush troops built ghetto in Baghdad, killed civilians and insurgens, as Nazi and Stalin troops in Poland in the past. Do You not see the resemblances? Bush has good intention. You know Hitler too and Milosevic too. They thought, that they are visionaries and they make it only for own nations. But we know, that they are evil and we have to dissaproved it. We are honorable people and we must understand, that all people ( Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists ) want to live in own independent states and have the same basic needs, as we have ( Sunnits and Shiis and other nations in Iraq): the right to living, right to safeness, right to property. They have another culture,religion, but they are the same people, as we are.

Except hitler built those ghettos in order to facilitate the deportation and murder of jewish people. On the other hand this wall, or "ghetto" :rolleyes: as you like to call it, that Bush is building is to safe guard one group of people from the other. The shiites and sunnis have hundreds of years of bad blood between them. Their sectarian violence is the one that cause deaths in Iraq.

mtw
05-02-2007, 11:12 AM
Except hitler built those ghettos in order to facilitate the deportation and murder of jewish people. On the other hand this wall, or "ghetto" :rolleyes: as you like to call it, that Bush is building is to safe guard one group of people from the other. The shiites and sunnis have hundreds of years of bad blood between them. Their sectarian violence is the one that cause deaths in Iraq.

It is the same truth, as this truth, that Hussein had nucler, biological and nuclear weapon. Such kind of wall ( called ghetto ) is built only to divide and humilitate people and create ethnic bar. It will cause only hatred between people. People are not animals and Bush is not the lord of this region and he has no right to make such things. Maybe he creates it only to cause outbreak of domestic war. You must remember, that he is real evil. Not sectarian violence, but attacks of Al-Qaeeda's extremists are the one of the major death of civilians in Iraq actually. Earlier attacks of occupying troops were this cause. Al-Qaeda was not created by Iraqis. It got in to Iraq after liquidation of Iraqi troops and police by occupying troops. It is the fact.These terrorists from Al-Qaeda must be financed by powerful secret services. And American secret services probably know more about these terrorists, than it can be expected.

mtw
05-02-2007, 11:18 AM
We would be easy prey for 'terrorists' and Al-Qaeda of course has strong ties with Iraq, and Iraq was behind 9-11!!!!
I can't believe this nation still takes this guy as our president, what a shame! I wonder what will this horrible 8 years for America will be remembered in the future...

It seems, that Iraq was innocent state. Iraq had no connection with Al-Qaeda before this war. Al-Qaeda got into Iraq after liquidation of Iraqi police and troops by the occupying troops. This war is crime. There are no purpose of this. It is bloody slaughter. It must be finished. And now they are decimeting there innocent civilians. Chef of Iraqi Al-Qaeda was Egyptian and he was killed yesterday by insurgens. They don't cooperate.
Occupying troops especially American troops must leave Iraq.

Jim Jones
05-02-2007, 09:32 PM
It seems, that Iraq was innocent state. Iraq had no connection with Al-Qaeda before this war. Al-Qaeda got into Iraq after liquidation of Iraqi police and troops by the occupying troops. This war is crime. There are no purpose of this. It is bloody slaughter. It must be finished. And now they are decimeting there innocent civilians. Chef of Iraqi Al-Qaeda was Egyptian and he was killed yesterday by insurgens. They don't cooperate.
Occupying troops especially American troops must leave Iraq.
It was the locals who said that he was killed and not the americans. When that is usually the case it means that he is still alive. In any case islamic terrorism is more complex then that. Support is given from left and right. Leaders can be replaced anytime. Osama is not pulling the strings it is Arab states, private rich individuals, organizatons and financial means like hawala. The media likes to simplize things by saying that Al Queda represents all of islamist terrorism and Osama is the king almighty. He is now toothless.

You want the war to finish, then tell the arab states and Iran to stop financing this mess. U.S. should also let them fight each other. unlike Afghanistan after Soviets left, it is the minority (sunni Arabs) that are more aggressive. Since they are only 20% of population they won't rule nation anymore. Shiites won't either, it will be a stalemate.

mtw
05-03-2007, 08:52 AM
It was the locals who said that he was killed and not the americans. When that is usually the case it means that he is still alive. In any case islamic terrorism is more complex then that. Support is given from left and right. Leaders can be replaced anytime. Osama is not pulling the strings it is Arab states, private rich individuals, organizatons and financial means like hawala. The media likes to simplize things by saying that Al Queda represents all of islamist terrorism and Osama is the king almighty. He is now toothless.

You want the war to finish, then tell the arab states and Iran to stop financing this mess. U.S. should also let them fight each other. unlike Afghanistan after Soviets left, it is the minority (sunni Arabs) that are more aggressive. Since they are only 20% of population they won't rule nation anymore. Shiites won't either, it will be a stalemate.


So, who can rule in Iraq fairly? Bush? You see, what is going on in Iraq now under reign of Bush.
I don't want to argue. I can say, that this is only propaganda, what you write. Many regimes and terrorists had connections with CIA in the past. Were not terrorists, who destroyed WTC trained by CIA in the past too? Bin Laden's Family ( are they Sunnis too ? I guess no) is the friend of Bush' family. After this attack, they were left to Saudi Arabia without investigation. They come from Saudi Arabia. After the attack on WTC nobody guilty was sentenced till now. Nobody knows, why and who and what for this terrible terroristic attack was made. Bush does not fight against Bin Laden. It seems, that he fights against ethnic groop ( Sunnis ), because he does not like this group. That's why, he builds ghetto so callaed wall to humilitate these people. Sunnis are the group of people, who resists him. That's why, he does not like them. Now Shiites resist him too. If they don't want him in own state, is it not the proof and delicate allusion, that he must leave Iraq. Alcoholic or not alcoholic should understand it.

mtw
05-03-2007, 08:59 AM
Thank You Democrats for veto of funds of antimissile shields. These sick gigantic rackets would be real disaster for Poland, these part of Europe. You are the great people. I wish You good luck in fight against Bush. I believe, that You will win. Democrats restore belief, that they are good people in US too.

mtw
05-03-2007, 09:14 AM
What can I write about this war in Iraq?
We had very sad Easter in this year in Poland. How could our Polish, superCatholic government do so sad Easter for own nation and for these poor people in Iraq? What kind of people are they? Some Bush's myrmidons ( I wouldn't be suprised, if this would be Bush's ,,great,,idea ) have thought very long time and they have thought out, that they will begin in so called Good Friday ,,operation'' - ,,Black Eagle". It would rely on looking for insurgens and weapon ( I don't know, conventional or maybe nuclear one)in homes of these poor, innocent, terrified Iraqi civilians. About 30 or 40 Iraqis were killed during these ,,action,, within 2-3 days. For comparison I can add, that Nazi troops did the same actions in Poland during II world war. They looked for insurgens and Jews and weapon in homes of innocent Polish civilians. These insurgens were called Polish terrorits or bandits by Nazi and propaganda.
How long will this terror of occupying troops last in Iraq? Why these people must suffer? What did they do for Bush?

fadou
05-03-2007, 11:02 AM
It seems, that Iraq was innocent state.
iraqian people are innocents: they were the victims of saddam hussein, embargo and now al qaida

Iraq had no connection with Al-Qaeda before this war. Al-Qaeda got into Iraq after liquidation of Iraqi police and troops by the occupying troops. This war is crime. There are no purpose of this. It is bloody slaughter. It must be finished. And now they are decimeting there innocent civilians. Chef of Iraqi Al-Qaeda was Egyptian and he was killed yesterday by insurgens. They don't cooperate.
Occupying troops especially American troops must leave Iraq.

True:worship: :worship:
the connection between saddam and al qaeda was a big lie to sell this war to americans: it was easy after 9/11, no?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
i'm even sure that bush government planned to do this war

mtw
05-04-2007, 03:03 PM
i'm even sure that bush government planned to do this war

I am sure too. They wanted always to control the oil of Iraq. Not only Bush, but former US leaders too. Hussein was outsider and he had no friends among neighboring states. Probably American war strategists thought, that it will be very easy to rule the oil. But it is not. They made too many mistakes and crimes there.
Some Americans have now the plan of zoning Iraq. How will it look like? Iraq I - rich in oil proamerican state ( proamerican for how long time? 1 month ? ) and Iraq II - poor in oil antiamerican state? They are really lamentable and very unfair. Besides after II world world nobody negotiated with Nazis. It is not very strange why. Because they initaited this war. Americans initiated this war too and they should be excluded out of negotiations. Why will American governments be always unpunished, irrespectives of that, what it does. They harmed Iragis very much and they have no right to continue it. Have they not money to buy the oil?
Others should organise meeting for all parts of this conflict excluding Al-Qaeda of course( because Al Qaeda terrorists are hard psychoes and they have only one purpose: killing of all civilians of this world. They demand good psychiatrists and penitentiary) and ask, what expectations thay have and make referendum among Iraqi people: do they want zoning of Iraq or not? It seems, that insurgens fight against occupying troops especially Americans army and some represntatives of so called caretaker government, which can be considered by some part of conflict, as collaborating with invaders ( alike government was in France during II world war and in Poland too).