Race [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Race

El Legenda
04-11-2007, 11:01 PM
:) Help! :) :lol: i need 5 people to answer the following. :yeah:


1. How many races exist in the world today?

2. What are those races?

3. Can you explain the basis of these distinctions? For example, are different races based on different skin color? or difference in religion? or difference in language? or several things?

Thanks :wavey:

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 03:03 AM
:) Help! :) :lol: i need 5 people to answer the following. :yeah:


1. How many races exist in the world today?

2. What are those races?

3. Can you explain the basis of these distinctions? For example, are different races based on different skin color? or difference in religion? or difference in language? or several things?

Thanks :wavey:

6 Races

English; Spanish/Hispanics; Muslims; Europeans (minus England/Ireland); Africans; Asians (minus Muslims).

English incoporates England/United States/Canada/Australia/Ireland etc.

Spanish/Hispanics incorporates Spain/Latin America/Mexico.

Muslims incorporate all Islamic majority states.

Europeans incoporates the EU minus Spain/England/Ireland and also Eastern Europe and the European part of Russia.

Asians incorporates the Far East/India/Asian Russia - basically all non Islamic Asian states.

Africans = Africa


Please feel free to criticise that but it's the best I can come up with now. Whether it's morally correct I don't really know. Maybe controversial to single out Spanish and not French.

El Legenda
04-12-2007, 03:06 AM
I dont have an answer, its something that we will talk about Friday in class and needed opinion of 5 people, and i thought what better place than MTF, since people from all over the world post here.

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 03:10 AM
Yep and hopefully that way you'll get a balanced opinion. My response is very erratic though with there being 3 continent based; 1 religion based; 1 language based and 1 culture based. I say culture for Spanish/Latino as I am also counting Portugal/Brazil in that bracket.

lau
04-12-2007, 03:11 AM
I must look for the scientific magazine where I read it to give the scientific justifications, but genetically speaking, the concept of race is incorrect (I know it from other sources too, but in that mag is where all the details were given).
Anyway, if about the concept of race we are speaking, it is a 'biological' concept. There´s no way language and/or religion and other cultural characteristics can define it. ;)

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 03:15 AM
I must look for the scientific magazine where I read it to give the scientific justifications, but genetically speaking, the concept of race is incorrect (I know it from other sources too, but in that mag is where all the details were given).
Anyway, if about the concept of race we are speaking, it is a 'biological' concept. Thereīs no way language and/or religion and other cultural characteristics can define it. ;)

I'd have thought it was more of an ethnical concept? A large group of people who share the same cultural ideology?

lau
04-12-2007, 03:21 AM
I'd have thought it was more of an ethnical concept? A large group of people who share the same cultural ideology?

Well, I have no idea if itīs different in English, but in Spanish, the concept 'raza' is, without any doubt, 'biological' (perhaps this is not the right word). It is pretty clear (in Spanish) if you look at it in any good dictionary. Also, thereīs no doubt about the purely biological origin of the concept.
When 'raza' is, in most contexts, associated to culture, it`s in racists speeches (of course, sometimes thatīs not the intention).

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 03:22 AM
I do hesitate to group Spain with the Latin American countries though in fact. When I recently visited Argentina I was of the opinion that it was just a country dominated by Spanish influence. But when out there I had my eyes opened and was shown how much the country has diversified since the Spanish invasion many centuries ago. It certainly has it's own unique identity.

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 03:26 AM
Well, I have no idea if itīs different in English, but in Spanish, the concept 'raza' is, without any doubt, 'biological' (perhaps this is not the right word). It is pretty clear (in Spanish) if you look at it in any good dictionary. Also, thereīs no doubt about the purely biological origin of the concept.
When 'raza' is, in most contexts, associated to culture, it`s in racists speeches (of course, sometimes thatīs not the intention).

So you believe the term "race" chiefly applies to the biological aspects of people such as the colour of their skin?

I agree with you to a certain extent but I do believe there are wider issues to be explored such as culture, religion and language (although the latter probably comes under culture)

lau
04-12-2007, 03:29 AM
I do hesitate to group Spain with the Latin American countries though in fact. When I recently visited Argentina I was of the opinion that it was just a country dominated by Spanish influence. But when out there I had my eyes opened and was shown how much the country has diversified since the Spanish invasion many centuries ago. It certainly has it's own unique identity.

:lol: there was a discussion about this in this thread ;)

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=96140

The correct use of the term "latin" includes italians, portuguese, spaniards, french, romanians, etc, etc, etc. ;)
And as I said, there´s no scientific proof to call it a "race".

BTW, there was 20th century spanish inmigration in Argentina. I don´t know the exact numbers, but I think it´s pretty safe to say italians were more that spaniards in terms of 20th century inmigration. Both were masive.
Buenos Aires have the second bigger jewish comunity outside Israel, after New York. And arabs are a huge community too.

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 03:34 AM
:lol: there was a discussion about this in this thread ;)

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=96140

The correct use of the term "latin" includes italians, portuguese, spaniards, french, romanians, etc, etc, etc. ;)
And as I said, thereīs no scientific proof to call it a "race".

BTW, there was 20th century spanish inmigration in Argentina. I donīt know the exact numbers, but I think itīs pretty safe to say italians were more that spaniards in terms of 20th century inmigration. Both were masive.

Yes I agree - "Latin" isn't a term I like to use when referring to the Spanish and Portuguese countries - it's just so frequently used in that manner by the media so it kinda rubs off :p

I still don't think "race" is necessarily only a biological thing. We need to agree to disagree here I think :p :p

Yes I gather there has been more movement between Italy and Argentina than Spain/Argentina during the past 100 years - it would be interesting to find out exactly what percentage of Argentinian's have Italian or Spanish backgrounds.

I noticed a number of Italian community's when I stayed in Buenos Aires.

lau
04-12-2007, 03:36 AM
So you believe the term "race" chiefly applies to the biological aspects of people such as the colour of their skin?

I agree with you to a certain extent but I do believe there are wider issues to be explored such as culture, religion and language (although the latter probably comes under culture)

I don´t think the concept of race should be applied to cultural, religious and languages issues ;) In fact, as far as I know, in social sciences, it is not done anymore (now..., someone could come here and say I´m wrong, because I´m not an specialist :lol: ).
And, biologically speaking, some say it is incorrect too. ;) The thing is that it was, and still is a very strong concept that became very popular, for different reasons, so people will continue using it, whether it´s wrong or not.

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 03:43 AM
I donīt think the concept of race should be applied to cultural, religious and languages issues ;) In fact, as far as I know, in social sciences, it is not done anymore (now..., someone could come here and say Iīm wrong, because Iīm not an specialist :lol: ).
And, biologically speaking, some say it is incorrect too. ;) The thing is it was, and still is a very strong concept that became very popular, for different reasons, so people will continue using it, whether itīs wrong or not.

I know the majority of people do think of racism as discrimination against the colour of people's skin - there is still always an element of this in everyday life amongst the unenlightened members of society. If for example I came out and said "I hate black people" I believe that would make me a racist, same for if I said "I hate Uruguayans" that would make me a racist. But I feel that it would be the same if I said I hated Jews, French speakers, or Arabs.

lau
04-12-2007, 03:50 AM
I know the majority of people do think of racism as discrimination against the colour of people's skin - there is still always an element of this in everyday life amongst the unenlightened members of society. If for example I came out and said "I hate black people" I believe that would make me a racist, same for if I said "I hate Uruguayans" that would make me a racist. But I feel that it would be the same if I said I hated Jews, French speakers, or Arabs.

I´m not sure what´s your point... Anyway, you can´t define a concept for what people would consider you in certain situation or for how most people use it..., at least not if it´s a scientific concept.
BTW, that would hardly make you racist (by the common use of the word). :p I guess it would make you just a hater :lol: or something like that ;) Uruguayans have a very diverse population (with a complex inmigration history). For example, an important percentage of them have black skin.

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 04:08 AM
Iīm not sure whatīs your point... Anyway, you canīt define a concept for what people would consider you in certain situation or for how most people use it..., at least not if itīs a scientific concept.
BTW, that would hardly make you racist (by the common use of the word). :p I guess it would make you just a hater :lol: or something like that ;) Uruguayans have a very diverse population (with a complex inmigration history). For example, an important percentage of them have black skin.

hmmm whilst probably the scientific element of racism is the most clear to see, the social elements which I brought up are certainly more than evident. I don't see why skin colour should necessarily determine a race when for example hair colour does not. I still believe the cultural aspects of the population must not be discounted and this is becoming increasingly evident with a sharp upturn in migration which is making it more difficult to determine a race simply by skin colour.

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 04:10 AM
I'm off to bed now (Have to write articles and have an interview tomorrow :sad: ) but I hope we can continue this debate tomorrow sometime :) :wavey:

GlennMirnyi
04-12-2007, 04:14 AM
Just read any scientific work on the genome mapping and you'll see geneticists have already declared there is no such thing as race.

lau
04-12-2007, 04:17 AM
hmmm whilst probably the scientific element of racism is the most clear to see, the social elements which I brought up are certainly more than evident. I don't see why skin colour should necessarily determine a race when for example hair colour does not. I still believe the cultural aspects of the population must not be discounted and this is becoming increasingly evident with a sharp upturn in migration which is making it more difficult to determine a race simply by skin colour.

Not really. IMHO, as far as you start to discount the biological aspects (and I said even those are in doubt these days), it turns even more tricky and difficult to use 'race' as a scientific concept.
For example, how would you call a black skin argentinean family with origins in Ivory Coast? (there´s a quite big community in Buenos Aires, even though most porteños don´t know about it) or a muslim with italian origins? (I know a few).
I don´t see how that kind of concept can be useful in this cases, and trust me, they are not that rare.
I guess that, as you said previously, we´ll have to agree to disagree. ;) Or we´ll have to look for an anthropologist to ask him/her about it :lol:

I'm off to bed now (Have to write articles and have an interview tomorrow :sad: ) but I hope we can continue this debate tomorrow sometime :) :wavey:
See you :wavey:

El Legenda
04-12-2007, 05:25 PM
bump :)

Byrd
04-12-2007, 06:29 PM
There's only one race the human race, but if you mean sub-groups then there is 5 major ones which are then broken down into even more sub-groups, wikipedia is your friend.

R.Federer
04-12-2007, 06:34 PM
There are 3 major groups:

1. Caucasoid (west of the Caucas mtns)
2. Mongoloid
3. Negroid

These are then divided further into sub-groups and also divided differentially by ethnicity. For example, people of India (by and large) are Caucasoid although if you ask a person what race an Indian is I bet you would get something like "Asian".

Jim Jones
04-12-2007, 07:05 PM
6 Races

English; Spanish/Hispanics; Muslims; Europeans (minus England/Ireland); Africans; Asians (minus Muslims).

English incoporates England/United States/Canada/Australia/Ireland etc.

Spanish/Hispanics incorporates Spain/Latin America/Mexico.

Muslims incorporate all Islamic majority states.

Europeans incoporates the EU minus Spain/England/Ireland and also Eastern Europe and the European part of Russia.

Asians incorporates the Far East/India/Asian Russia - basically all non Islamic Asian states.

Africans = Africa


Please feel free to criticise that but it's the best I can come up with now. Whether it's morally correct I don't really know. Maybe controversial to single out Spanish and not French.

Muslims are not a raced, it is a religion. If Islam is a race then so are other religions. Judaism is also not a rac, technically.

The races are:
Caucasian, Negroid and Mongoloid. Caucasians are white, generally Indians, iranians, Arabs etc... Negroids are blacks and aborigines and Mongoloids are Chinese, Japanese and other Orientals with have slanted eyes.

Jim Jones
04-12-2007, 07:06 PM
6 Races

English; Spanish/Hispanics; Muslims; Europeans (minus England/Ireland); Africans; Asians (minus Muslims).

English incoporates England/United States/Canada/Australia/Ireland etc.

Spanish/Hispanics incorporates Spain/Latin America/Mexico.

Muslims incorporate all Islamic majority states.

Europeans incoporates the EU minus Spain/England/Ireland and also Eastern Europe and the European part of Russia.

Asians incorporates the Far East/India/Asian Russia - basically all non Islamic Asian states.

Africans = Africa


Please feel free to criticise that but it's the best I can come up with now. Whether it's morally correct I don't really know. Maybe controversial to single out Spanish and not French.

Muslims are not a race, Islam is a religion. If Islam is a race then so are other religions. Judaism is also not a race technically.

The races are:
Caucasian, Negroid and Mongoloid. Caucasians are white, generally Indians, iranians, Arabs etc... Negroids are blacks and aborigines and Mongoloids are Chinese, Japanese and other Orientals with slanted eyes.

Chris 84
04-12-2007, 07:19 PM
1 race. Homo sapiens.

R.Federer
04-12-2007, 07:21 PM
1 race. Homo sapiens.

No fair! :sobbing:
What about Hetero sapiens?

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 08:52 PM
I have applied for a job today and one of the questions they asked was my Race. The options being...

WHITE: British; Irish; Other White.

MIXED: White & Black Carribbean; White & Black African; White and Asian; Any other mixed background.

ASIAN OR ASIAN BRITISH: Indian; Pakistani; Bangladeshi; Any other Asian background.

BLACK OR BLACK BRITISH: Caribbean; African; Any other black background.

CHINESE OR OTHER ETHNIC GROUP: Chinese; Any Other.


Bear in mind of course the job I applied for is in England so the options are slanted towards Britain.

Chris 84
04-12-2007, 08:58 PM
I have applied for a job today and one of the questions they asked was my Race. The options being...

WHITE: British; Irish; Other White.

MIXED: White & Black Carribbean; White & Black African; White and Asian; Any other mixed background.

ASIAN OR ASIAN BRITISH: Indian; Pakistani; Bangladeshi; Any other Asian background.

BLACK OR BLACK BRITISH: Caribbean; African; Any other black background.

CHINESE OR OTHER ETHNIC GROUP: Chinese; Any Other.


Bear in mind of course the job I applied for is in England so the options are slanted towards Britain.

You are confusing race with ethnic backgroud, or your fututre employers are.

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 09:00 PM
You are confusing race with ethnic backgroud, or your fututre employers are.

Yes I was thinking that too.

Johnny Groove
04-12-2007, 09:00 PM
I have applied for a job today and one of the questions they asked was my Race. The options being...

WHITE: British; Irish; Other White.

MIXED: White & Black Carribbean; White & Black African; White and Asian; Any other mixed background.

ASIAN OR ASIAN BRITISH: Indian; Pakistani; Bangladeshi; Any other Asian background.

BLACK OR BLACK BRITISH: Caribbean; African; Any other black background.

CHINESE OR OTHER ETHNIC GROUP: Chinese; Any Other.


Bear in mind of course the job I applied for is in England so the options are slanted towards Britain.

:spit: thats fucking hilarious

Chinese for some reason is not only separated from Asian, but is the "head" of the "other" group. Comic :lol:

Also, I guess there are no latinos in England?

lau
04-12-2007, 09:01 PM
I have applied for a job today and one of the questions they asked was my Race. The options being...

WHITE: British; Irish; Other White.

MIXED: White & Black Carribbean; White & Black African; White and Asian; Any other mixed background.

ASIAN OR ASIAN BRITISH: Indian; Pakistani; Bangladeshi; Any other Asian background.

BLACK OR BLACK BRITISH: Caribbean; African; Any other black background.

CHINESE OR OTHER ETHNIC GROUP: Chinese; Any Other.


Bear in mind of course the job I applied for is in England so the options are slanted towards Britain.

Well, as I said, a scientific concept canīt be define by the use it is made of it by 'people' in general ;)

Chris 84
04-12-2007, 09:03 PM
6 Races

English; Spanish/Hispanics; Muslims; Europeans (minus England/Ireland); Africans; Asians (minus Muslims).

English incoporates England/United States/Canada/Australia/Ireland etc.

Spanish/Hispanics incorporates Spain/Latin America/Mexico.

Muslims incorporate all Islamic majority states.

Europeans incoporates the EU minus Spain/England/Ireland and also Eastern Europe and the European part of Russia.

Asians incorporates the Far East/India/Asian Russia - basically all non Islamic Asian states.

Africans = Africa


Please feel free to criticise that but it's the best I can come up with now. Whether it's morally correct I don't really know. Maybe controversial to single out Spanish and not French.

Can't believe I missed this post.
Come to think of it, I can't believe this post at all :tape:

What is the "English race"?
As a Scot, am I English, or European?
Muslims are a race?
Asians are a race? You differentiate Brits from Scandanavians and Germanic peoples, but you lump all Africans together? And all Asians for that matter? Hmmmmmmm :unsure:

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 09:08 PM
There are 3 major groups:

1. Caucasoid (west of the Caucas mtns)
2. Mongoloid
3. Negroid

These are then divided further into sub-groups and also divided differentially by ethnicity. For example, people of India (by and large) are Caucasoid although if you ask a person what race an Indian is I bet you would get something like "Asian".

The 3 major groups you stated were thought up when the "world" only encompassed Europe, a quarter of Asia and Africa. Back in the Middle Ages.

Not really. IMHO, as far as you start to discount the biological aspects (and I said even those are in doubt these days), it turns even more tricky and difficult to use 'race' as a scientific concept.
For example, how would you call a black skin argentinean family with origins in Ivory Coast? (thereīs a quite big community in Buenos Aires, even though most porteņos donīt know about it) or a muslim with italian origins? (I know a few).
I donīt see how that kind of concept can be useful in this cases, and trust me, they are not that rare.
I guess that, as you said previously, weīll have to agree to disagree. ;) Or weīll have to look for an anthropologist to ask him/her about it :lol:


See you :wavey:

If , as I said, history dictates a person's race than the black skinned Argentinian family would fall under the "African" category. There are no real biological differences, I don't believe a persons skin colour is altered by differences in genes etc. so it is difficult to single that out as the singular method of determining a person's race. It is more social groups for me.

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 09:17 PM
:spit: thats fucking hilarious

Chinese for some reason is not only separated from Asian, but is the "head" of the "other" group. Comic :lol:

Also, I guess there are no latinos in England?

Totally crazy I agree, it differs through every application form I have to fill in. Maybe it's more of an indicator of which ethnic groups (not race as it incorrectly points out) employers in the UK feel are important? :confused:

Can't believe I missed this post.
Come to think of it, I can't believe this post at all :tape:

What is the "English race"?
As a Scot, am I English, or European?
Muslims are a race?
Asians are a race? You differentiate Brits from Scandanavians and Germanic peoples, but you lump all Africans together? And all Asians for that matter? Hmmmmmmm :unsure:

English speaking people I mean. As a Scot you would come under "English" same as Australia/United States.

Muslims represent a large community in the world which is why I classed them as a race.

I;m not differentiating British people on the whole, I have lumped all English speaking people together - English culture. Whether I was correct to do this I'm not sure as you do have a good argument of why should I treat the English language different to other languages.

"Asians" is a very tricky one to explain, I guess I was struggling a great deal to explain which race the different parts of the Asian continent to belong to. I may get away with placing the Asian race as far eastern and non Islamic (Japanese, Chinese etc.) but then that leaves Israel and a small number of other countries in west Asia to deal with I guess.

I think I would still go along with African as a race though.

Chris 84
04-12-2007, 09:29 PM
English speaking people I mean. As a Scot you would come under "English" same as Australia/United States.

Muslims represent a large community in the world which is why I classed them as a race.

I;m not differentiating British people on the whole, I have lumped all English speaking people together - English culture. Whether I was correct to do this I'm not sure as you do have a good argument of why should I treat the English language different to other languages.

"Asians" is a very tricky one to explain, I guess I was struggling a great deal to explain which race the different parts of the Asian continent to belong to. I may get away with placing the Asian race as far eastern and non Islamic (Japanese, Chinese etc.) but then that leaves Israel and a small number of other countries in west Asia to deal with I guess.

I think I would still go along with African as a race though.

What about English-speaking Africans? :p

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 09:34 PM
What about English-speaking Africans? :p

South Africans with English or Dutch origins you mean? I don't have a straight answer for that, it all depends how you wish to base the definition of "race." If historic then group them with Europeans, if current then with Africans, if skin colour then white. But it is tough to decide for sure I guess.

Hendu
04-12-2007, 09:58 PM
There is no point in talking about races, as there are no such things...

you should ask about ethnic groups, and even with those you will find hundreds and its too difficult to simplify it in a few big groups.

With language families you get an approximation, but you would still be far away from what you are looking for...

here is a map from wikipedia with the language families, it seems it has many mistakes, but you get an idea:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Languengl.gif

El Legenda
04-12-2007, 10:18 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Languengl.gif

:lol: who made that map? a 2 year old? that may be the worst color scheme ever, :lol: im a cartography minor :)

Hendu
04-12-2007, 10:25 PM
And if you want to keep talking about races, then according to the father of taxonomy, Carl von Linné, there are 5:

Native Americans
reddish, stubborn, and angered easily.

Africans
black, relaxed and negligent.

Asians
sallow, avaricious, and easily distracted.

Europeans
white, gentle, and inventive.

Anthropomorpha
mythological creatures, including the troglodyte, satyr, hydra, and phoenix.

Monstrosous
agile and fainthearted, and includes the Patagonian giant, the dwarf of the Alps, and the monorchid Hottentot.

Hendu
04-12-2007, 10:27 PM
:lol: who made that map? a 2 year old? that may be the worst color scheme ever, :lol: im a cartography minor :)

yep, it sucks.

R.Federer
04-12-2007, 10:37 PM
The 3 major groups you stated were thought up when the "world" only encompassed Europe, a quarter of Asia and Africa. Back in the Middle Ages.


No.

It is a classification based on broad physical characteristics. Head shape, eye, mouth, ear, nose shape, build, height, etc. It is a classification that is very much in use even today.

R.Federer
04-12-2007, 10:38 PM
Chinese for some reason is not only separated from Asian, but is the "head" of the "other" group. Comic :lol:

Also, I guess there are no latinos in England?

I think the Latinos were intended to be covered in the group:

"White & Black Carribbean; White & Black African; White and Asian; Any other mixed background."

That's the UK for you!

Suzi
04-12-2007, 11:16 PM
Asians
sallow, avaricious, and easily distracted.


haha soooo true but dunno wot the first two mean :p

as for yeah why is it in the UK, Asians refer to india, paksitan etc.. but chinese is a completly diff category :o last time i checked china was in asia