Srebrenica Genocide [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Srebrenica Genocide

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 01:13 AM
The Srebrenica Massacre, also known as Srebrenica Genocide, was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak males, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of General Ratko Mladić during the Bosnian War. In addition to the Army of Republika Srpska, a paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the "Scorpions" participated in the massacre.

The Srebrenica massacre is the largest mass murder in Europe since World War II. In the unanimous ruling "Prosecutor v. Krstic", the Appeals Chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY), located in The Hague, ruled that the Srebrenica massacre was an act of genocide, the Presiding Judge Theodor Meron stating:

By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims [Bosniaks], the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide. They targeted for extinction the forty thousand Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica, a group which was emblematic of the Bosnian Muslims in general. They stripped all the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, elderly and young, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them solely on the basis of their identity.

The International Court of Justice has subsequently confirmed the ICTY's finding that the Srebrenica massacre was an act of genocide. The United Nations had previously declared Srebrenica a UN protected "safe area", but they did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time. The massacre included several instances where preteen children, elderly and women were also killed.The list of people missing or killed in Srebrenica compiled by the Federal Commission of Missing Persons so far includes 8,373 names.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdMOG3gJvYs

According to the report by Agence France Presse (AFP), a dozen Greek volunteers took part in the massacre of Srebrenica. These persons belonged to the Greek Volunteer Guard (ΕΕΦ), an integral part of the Drina Corps and were either members of the Golden Dawn, a Greek neo-Nazi group, or mercenaries. According to a book by Takis Michas, a Greek flag was raised in Srebrenica following the fall of the city while Radovan Karadžić had honored the volunteers. The pretense of involvement of Greek citizens in the massacre was to support their "Orthodox brothers" in battle.

On September 30, 2003, former US President Bill Clinton officially opened Srebrenica Genocide Memorial. Total cost of the project was around $6 million, of which the United States government provided $1 million. We remember this terrible crime because we dare not forget, because we must pay tribute to the innocent lives, many of them children who were snuffed out in what must be called genocidal madness, Clinton said

U.S. Congress resolution

On June 27, 2005, the United States House of Representatives passed a resolution (H. Res. 199 sponsored by Congressman Christopher Smith and Congressman Benjamin Cardin) commemorating the 10th anniversary of the Srebrenica genocide. The resolution was passed with overwhelming majority of 370—YES votes, 1—NO vote, and 62— ABSENT .[52] The resolution states that:

...the policies of aggression and ethnic cleansing as implemented by Serb forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina from 1992 and 1995 with the direct support of Serbian regime of Slobodan Milošević and its followers ultimately led to the displacement of more than 2,000,000 people, an estimated 200,000 killed, tens of thousands ***** or otherwise tortured and abused, and the innocent civilians of Sarajevo and other urban centers repeatedly subjected to shelling and sniper attacks; meet the terms defining the crime of genocide in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, created in Paris on December 9, 1948, and entered into force on January 12, 1951

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 01:37 AM
One of the worst things about the attoricity was the conduct of Mladic who targetted civilians and armed forces alike :(

Was it the Dutch military peacekeepers that were useless and allowed the Serb forces into the refugee camps? Almost to the extent that they assisted them if I remember correctly!

Anyway Serbia will never be able to progress and join the European Union until Mladic and co are brought to justice.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 01:45 AM
One of the worst things about the attoricity was the conduct of Mladic who targetted civilians and armed forces alike :(

Was it the Dutch military peacekeepers that were useless and allowed the Serb forces into the refugee camps? Almost to the extent that they assisted them if I remember correctly!

Anyway Serbia will never be able to progress and join the European Union until Mladic and co are brought to justice.

The Dutch pretty much looked the other way.

Serbia is going no where fast.

buddyholly
04-10-2007, 01:51 AM
Anything happen recently to prompt you to bring up this thread?
Otherwise there is nothing new to discuss.

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 01:52 AM
The Dutch pretty much looked the other way.

Serbia is going no where fast.

I was very shocked at the Dutch forces' reaction - they knew and saw what was going on and did sod all :mad: Eight odd thousand died in the end and I'm sure quite a number of those could have been prevented.

Serbia will suffer in the long run all the time the fugitives are not brought to justice - there will be envious eyes at Bosnia on July 1st anyway when the SAA goes through ;)

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 01:55 AM
Anything happen recently to prompt you to bring up this thread?
Otherwise there is nothing new to discuss.

yes, things are getting heated again over there. its never going to be the same. Serbs cant stand Bosnians, Croats cant stand Serbians, Bosnians cant stand the serbians. just goes back and forth. seems like Croats and Bosnians are getting along again.

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 01:57 AM
Anything happen recently to prompt you to bring up this thread?
Otherwise there is nothing new to discuss.

The news that the war crimes tribunal allowed Serbia not to disclose key documents detailing the genocide that took place. It probably would have changed the verdict.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 02:02 AM
Anything happen recently to prompt you to bring up this thread?
Otherwise there is nothing new to discuss.
the world should never forgot that it turned its back on those people
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3402/3640downha3.th.jpg (http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3640downha3.jpg)

buddyholly
04-10-2007, 02:19 AM
The news that the war crimes tribunal allowed Serbia not to disclose key documents detailing the genocide that took place. It probably would have changed the verdict.

I missed this.

Yes, I saw the Croatians bring their racism to the Masters Tournament in Toronto last summer.

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 02:20 AM
Yes, I saw the Croatians bring their racism to the Masters Tournament in Toronto last summer.

What was that all about?

buddyholly
04-10-2007, 02:21 AM
the world should never forgot that it turned its back on those people


I never intended to suggest it should be forgotten, I just was curious as to whether there were new developments.

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 02:22 AM
I never intended to suggest it should be forgotten, I just was curious as to whether there were new developments.

It is a disrespect to the people of Srebrenica that the Hague allowed Serbia to keep hold of their documents, the reason being cited as national security! :o

Voo de Mar
04-10-2007, 02:52 AM
I don't understand this war then and now, when I read about it :shrug: But I remember well the heads of the soldiers which were cuted off and fixed to a bumper of a car in some forest (I saw it on TV) :( :( This was horrible :sad:
I was a little bit "closely" to this war in the 90's because in my house had been living for a two or three weeks, a Croat who supported financially Croatian's army. He was lived in Germany and my mother had worked in his house. Later my parents invited him to our house and he was talking a lot about the Bosnian War but mainly about Croatia. I feel sorrow for all the innocent victims of this war. Fucking, incomprehensible war is the worst thing in the world :mad:

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 02:59 AM
As wars go this was certainly the saddest for me since the Second World War. Such a waste :sad:

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 03:01 AM
I don't understand this war then and now, when I read about it :shrug: But I remember well the heads of the soldiers which were cuted off and fixed to a bumper of a car in some forest (I saw it on TV) :( :( This was horrible :sad:
I was a little bit "closely" to this war in the 90's because in my house had been living for a two or three weeks, a Croat who supported financially Croatian's army. He was lived in Germany and my mother had worked in his house. Later my parents invited him to our house and he was talking a lot about the Bosnian War but mainly about Croatia. I feel sorrow for all the innocent victims of this war. Fucking, incomprehensible war is the worst thing in the world :mad:

it is a really really long story and it can get confusing because a lot of people confuse the Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Croat Bosnian Muslim(Bosnak), but the short of it is, in the early 1990's Yugoslavia started to break up ..Slovenia and Croatia left and Bosnia(Muslim) left, and the Serbs were not happy about that, so they attacked Bosnia and attacked Croatia but not a much
the reason Serbs were able to attack, is when it all use to be Yugoslavia(which was 4th strongest Army in the world after WWII) all the main military weapons were on serbian territory, so they used those to attack Bosnia which didnt have many weapons, so Iran, Turkey and other Muslim countries started to help out, thats when USA and UN stepped in and stopped the war. Bosnians(muslims) started to gain back ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_War if you have time read all that.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 03:03 AM
In the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, conflict between the three main ethnic groups, the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, resulted in genocide committed by the Serbs against the Muslims in Bosnia.

Bosnia is one of several small countries that emerged from the break-up of Yugoslavia, a multicultural country created after World War I by the victorious Western Allies. Yugoslavia was composed of ethnic and religious groups that had been historical rivals, even bitter enemies, including the Serbs (Orthodox Christians), Croats (Catholics) and ethnic Albanians (Muslims).

During World War II, Yugoslavia was invaded by Nazi Germany and was partitioned. A fierce resistance movement sprang up led by Josip Tito. Following Germany's defeat, Tito reunified Yugoslavia under the slogan "Brotherhood and Unity," merging together Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, along with two self-governing provinces, Kosovo and Vojvodina.

Tito, a Communist, was a strong leader who maintained ties with the Soviet Union and the United States during the Cold War, playing one superpower against the other while obtaining financial assistance and other aid from both. After his death in 1980 and without his strong leadership, Yugoslavia quickly plunged into political and economic chaos.

A new leader arose by the late 1980s, a Serbian named Slobodan Milosevic, a former Communist who had turned to nationalism and religious hatred to gain power. He began by inflaming long-standing tensions between Serbs and Muslims in the independent provence of Kosovo. Orthodox Christian Serbs in Kosovo were in the minority and claimed they were being mistreated by the Albanian Muslim majority. Serbian-backed political unrest in Kosovo eventually led to its loss of independence and domination by Milosevic.



In June 1991, Slovenia and Croatia both declared their independence from Yugoslavia soon resulting in civil war. The national army of Yugoslavia, now made up of Serbs controlled by Milosevic, stormed into Slovenia but failed to subdue the separatists there and withdrew after only ten days of fighting.

Milosevic quickly lost interest in Slovenia, a country with almost no Serbs. Instead, he turned his attention to Croatia, a Catholic country where Orthodox Serbs made up 12 percent of the population.

During World War II, Croatia had been a pro-Nazi state led by Ante Pavelic and his fascist Ustasha Party. Serbs living in Croatia as well as Jews had been the targets of widespread Ustasha massacres. In the concentration camp at Jasenovac, they had been slaughtered by the tens of thousands.

In 1991, the new Croat government, led by Franjo Tudjman, seemed to be reviving fascism, even using the old Ustasha flag, and also enacted discriminatory laws targeting Orthodox Serbs.

Aided by Serbian guerrillas in Croatia, Milosevic's forces invaded in July 1991 to 'protect' the Serbian minority. In the city of Vukovar, they bombarded the outgunned Croats for 86 consecutive days and reduced it to rubble. After Vukovar fell, the Serbs began the first mass executions of the conflict, killing hundreds of Croat men and burying them in mass graves.



The response of the international community was limited. The U.S. under President George Bush chose not to get involved militarily, but instead recognized the independence of both Slovenia and Croatia. An arms embargo was imposed for all of the former Yugoslavia by the United Nations. However, the Serbs under Milosevic were already the best armed force and thus maintained a big military advantage.

The end of 1991 brokered a U.S.-sponsored cease-fire agreement between the Serbs and Croats fighting in Croatia.

In April 1992, the U.S. and European Community chose to recognize the independence of Bosnia, a mostly Muslim country where the Serb minority made up 32 percent of the population. Milosevic responded to Bosnia's declaration of independence by attacking Sarajevo, its capital city, best known for hosting the 1984 Winter Olympics. Sarajevo soon became known as the city where Serb snipers continually shot down helpless civilians in the streets, including eventually over 3,500 children.

Bosnian Muslims were hopelessly outgunned. As the Serbs gained ground, they began to systematically roundup local Muslims in scenes eerily similar to those that had occurred under the Nazis during World War II, including mass shootings, forced repopulation of entire towns, and confinement in make-shift concentration camps for men and boys. The Serbs also terrorized Muslim families into fleeing their villages by using **** as a weapon against women and girls.

The actions of the Serbs were labeled as 'ethnic cleansing,' a name which quickly took hold among the international media.

Despite media reports of the secret camps, the mass killings, as well as the destruction of Muslim mosques and historic architecture in Bosnia, the world community remained mostly indifferent. The U.N. responded by imposing economic sanctions on Serbia and also deployed its troops to protect the distribution of food and medicine to dispossessed Muslims. But the U.N. strictly prohibited its troops from interfering militarily against the Serbs. Thus they remained steadfastly neutral no matter how bad the situation became.

Throughout 1993, confident that the U.N., United States and the European Community would not take militarily action, Serbs in Bosnia freely committed genocide against Muslims. Bosnian Serbs operated under the local leadership of Radovan Karadzic, president of the illegitimate Bosnian Serb Republic. Karadzic had once told a group of journalists, "Serbs and Muslims are like cats and dogs. They cannot live together in peace. It is impossible."

When Karadzic was confronted by reporters about ongoing atrocities, he bluntly denied involvement of his soldiers or special police units.

On February 6, 1994, the world's attention turned completely to Bosnia as a marketplace in Sarajevo was struck by a Serb mortar shell killing 68 persons and wounding nearly 200. Sights and sounds of the bloody carnage were broadcast globally by the international news media and soon resulted in calls for military intervention against the Serbs.

The U.S. under its new President, Bill Clinton, who had promised during his election campaign in 1992 to stop the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, now issued an ultimatum through the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) demanding that the Serbs withdraw their artillery from Sarajevo. The Serbs quickly complied and a NATO-imposed cease-fire in Sarajevo was declared.

The U.S. then launched diplomatic efforts aimed at unifying Bosnian Muslims and the Croats against the Serbs. However, this new Muslim-Croat alliance failed to stop the Serbs from attacking Muslim towns in Bosnia, which had been declared Safe Havens by the U.N. A total of six Muslim towns had been established as Safe Havens in May 1993 under the supervision of U.N. peacekeepers.

Bosnian Serbs not only attacked the Safe Havens but also attacked the U.N. peacekeepers as well. NATO forces responded by launching limited air strikes against Serb ground positions. The Serbs retaliated by taking hundreds of U.N. peacekeepers as hostages and turning them into human shields, chained to military targets such as ammo supply dumps.

At this point, some of the worst genocidal activities of the four-year-old conflict occurred. In Srebrenica, a Safe Haven, U.N. peacekeepers stood by helplessly as the Serbs under the command of General Ratko Mladic systematically selected and then slaughtered nearly 8,000 men and boys between the ages of twelve and sixty - the worst mass murder in Europe since World War II. In addition, the Serbs continued to engage in mass rapes of Muslim females.

On August 30, 1995, effective military intervention finally began as the U.S. led a massive NATO bombing campaign in response to the killings at Srebrenica, targeting Serbian artillery positions throughout Bosnia. The bombardment continued into October. Serb forces also lost ground to Bosnian Muslims who had received arms shipments from the Islamic world. As a result, half of Bosnia was eventually retaken by Muslim-Croat troops.

Faced with the heavy NATO bombardment and a string of ground losses to the Muslim-Croat alliance, Serb leader Milosevic was now ready to talk peace. On November 1, 1995, leaders of the warring factions including Milosevic and Tudjman traveled to the U.S. for peace talks at Wright-Patterson Air Force base in Ohio.

After three weeks of negotiations, a peace accord was declared. Terms of the agreement included partitioning Bosnia into two main portions known as the Bosnian Serb Republic and the Muslim-Croat Federation. The agreement also called for democratic elections and stipulated that war criminals would be handed over for prosecution. 60,000 NATO soldiers were deployed to preserve the cease-fire.

By now, over 200,000 Muslim civilians had been systematically murdered. More than 20,000 were missing and feared dead, while 2,000,000 had become refugees. It was, according to U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke, "the greatest failure of the West since the 1930s."

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 03:09 AM
It was true though that the ethnic cleansing orders against the Bosnian Muslims and a few years later against the Kosovan Albanians came directly from the top - Milosevic.

zicofirol
04-10-2007, 03:13 AM
One of the worst things about the attoricity was the conduct of Mladic who targetted civilians and armed forces alike :(

Was it the Dutch military peacekeepers that were useless and allowed the Serb forces into the refugee camps? Almost to the extent that they assisted them if I remember correctly!

Anyway Serbia will never be able to progress and join the European Union until Mladic and co are brought to justice.

I imagine they where dutch UN peacekeepres, when the hell has the UN prevented anything from happening, its the most useless and corrupt organization in the world, bar none...

As for the war, I cant believe there wasn't an outcry from the world over the unjustified use of US military in the area, america was never threatened and had no business in conducting military operations against serbia...

Voo de Mar
04-10-2007, 03:19 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_War if you have time read all that.

Thanks but I read about this war here ->
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojna_w_Bo%C5%9Bni
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masakra_w_Srebrenicy
although I don't understand why Serbs were attacked Croatia and Bosnia only because these countries left Yugoslavia. For me this is completely incomprehensible :shrug: On the polish wikipedia is written inter alia that conflict between Serbs and Bosnians began in the Battle of Kosovo (1389) :shrug:

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 03:20 AM
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/milosevic/story/0,,868869,00.html

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 03:20 AM
Makes you wonder why the United States were so eager to intervene in Afghanistan and Iraq and not save the Bosnian Muslims :sad:

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 03:22 AM
Makes you wonder why the United States were so eager to intervene in Afghanistan and Iraq and not save the Bosnian Muslims :sad:

they had nothing to gain from Bosnia...plently to gain in Iraq...oil

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 03:23 AM
I imagine they where dutch UN peacekeepres, when the hell has the UN prevented anything from happening, its the most useless and corrupt organization in the world, bar none...

As for the war, I cant believe there wasn't an outcry from the world over the unjustified use of US military in the area, america was never threatened and had no business in conducting military operations against serbia...

Totally agree with you, the UN is bloody useless! No aggressive state takes it seriously.

I think the difference is that during the time the US intervened in Iraq/Afghanistan there was no active mass-scale ethnic cleansing whereas during the Bosnian conflict and the war in Kosovo there certainly was.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 03:27 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li8fuNGTAz0

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 03:28 AM
Thanks but I read about this war here ->
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojna_w_Bo%C5%9Bni
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masakra_w_Srebrenicy
although I don't understand why Serbs were attacked Croatia and Bosnia only because these countries left Yugoslavia. For me this is completely incomprehensible :shrug: On the polish wikipedia is written inter alia that conflict between Serbs and Bosnians began in the Battle of Kosovo (1389) :shrug:

The death of Tito sparked the main rumblings and the beginning of the modern day tensions in Yugoslavia. He ruled the country with an iron fist after WW2 and took advantage of the Cold War, constantly playing the United States and Soviet Union against each other whilst the country itself prospered greatly.

The main reason Milosevic gave for attacking Croatia and Bosnia was that around 12% of the Croatian population were Serbs and almost 40% in Bosnia were Serbs. He felt Serbia had a "duty" to protect them. Hence the reason he couldn't be arsed to seriously attack Slovenia as it contained no Serbs.

But I totally agree his actions were unforgivable and he should have been stopped by the UN or NATO a lot sooner. Why we had to wait until such an awful event like Srebenica to take place before intervening I don't know :sad:

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 03:30 AM
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/milosevic/story/0,,868869,00.html

ah yes I remember reading about that. The Greek government were very embarrassed at the time hence the reason they spoke out so much against the Serbs during the Kosovan conflict. I know the Greeks and Serbs have religious ties but I wouldn't have expected that. :rolleyes:

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 03:32 AM
they had nothing to gain from Bosnia...plently to gain in Iraq...oil

That's true I guess. I remember during the conflict I was residing in Bulgaria and the locals there were very nervous about the conflict spreading across the borders. It would have been egg-on-face for NATO should that have happened! Same during the Kosovan conflict.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 03:33 AM
if UN didnt step in, Serbians would have been in trouble, because towards end of 1995, with the help of the Iranians and Turkish, Bosnians and Croats gained back a lot and made it to Banja-Luka(Ivan Ljubicic's home town and mine) which was a heavy populated by serbs.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 03:34 AM
That's true I guess. I remember during the conflict I was residing in Bulgaria and the locals there were very nervous about the conflict spreading across the borders. It would have been egg-on-face for NATO should that have happened! Same during the Kosovan conflict.

it could have turned to a all out religious war, with Greece and Russian supporting Serbia, all the mideast states supporting and sending arms to Bosnia.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 03:37 AM
but at the end, most of serbian, bosnian and croatian people didnt want this, it was decide by few at the top and that decision lead to over 200,000 people paying for it.

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 03:43 AM
if UN didnt step in, Serbians would have been in trouble, because towards end of 1995, with the help of the Iranians and Turkish, Bosnians and Croats gained back a lot and made it to Banja-Luka(Ivan Ljubicic's home town and mine) which was a heavy populated by serbs.

ahhh I see! I guess despite the might of the Serbian military, when they finally began to run out of equipment and personnel they would have struggled big time as I doubt any state would have sponsored them - Greece or Russia would have been too scared to get involved due to UN condemnation. At least Iran and Turkey are countries that back then couldn't give a shit for the UN :D Really speaking there could have been a major revolution had the Croats/Muslims made it to Belgrade, maybe that's why the UN stepped in when they did.

It doesn't make the UN less guilty for their ignorance though. Reminds me a lot of Chamberlain and his appeasement policy :mad:

Voo de Mar
04-10-2007, 03:47 AM
The main reason Milosevic gave for attacking Croatia and Bosnia was that around 12% of the Croatian population were Serbs and almost 40% in Bosnia were Serbs. He felt Serbia had a "duty" to protect them. Hence the reason he couldn't be arsed to seriously attack Slovenia as it contained no Serbs.



:rolleyes: What a stupid decision: attacking to protect :shrug: An absurd reason.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 03:47 AM
this is the real flag of the Bosnian Muslims, the current one was created by Euro's, which no Bosnian Muslim will ever respect.
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4453/3333vu3.th.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3333vu3.jpg)

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 03:54 AM
it could have turned to a all out religious war, with Greece and Russian supporting Serbia, all the mideast states supporting and sending arms to Bosnia.

I doubt very much that would have suited Serbia either especially considering Russia was in turmoil and Greece had only just joined the European Union and wouldn't want to risk being thrown out.

but at the end, most of serbian, bosnian and croatian people didnt want this, it was decide by few at the top and that decision lead to over 200,000 people paying for it.

Yep sadly and it could all have been solved had the UN sent in troops or even have simply threatened or made demands of Milosevic. It will be interesting to see the state of former-Yugoslavia in 10 days. Serbia will stagnate I feel.

Bosnia will be admitted to the EU at ease despite lacking many of the required fundamentals and this is because the west *know* they owe it to Bosnia!

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 03:58 AM
Yep sadly and it could all have been solved had the UN sent .
!

thats what the Bosnian President Alija Izetbegovic thought, when Bosnian became independent and US and Europe recognized it, but they just turned their backs and came in when it was way too late.

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 04:00 AM
:rolleyes: What a stupid decision: attacking to protect :shrug: An absurd reason.

Totally ridiculous but then Milosevic was a crazy man! He tried to pass on the blame at every opportunity though! Such a spineless individual to the end!

this is the real flag of the Bosnian Muslims, the current one was created by Euro's, which no Bosnian Muslim will ever respect.
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4453/3333vu3.th.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3333vu3.jpg)

Why did they have to change it?

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 04:06 AM
Totally ridiculous but then Milosevic was a crazy man! He tried to pass on the blame at every opportunity though! Such a spineless individual to the end!



Why did they have to change it?
The country is home to three ethnic "constituent peoples": Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. Regardless of ethnicity, a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina is often identified in English as a Bosnian. In Bosnia though, the distinction between a Bosnian and a Herzegovinian is maintained, again without regard to actual ethnicity. The country is decentralized and is administratively divided into two entities, the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Republika Srpska.

in 1995, when they signed the Dayton Accord, Bosnia became: Federation of Bosnian and Hercegovina(mostly Muslims) and Republica Srpska(mostly serbs)
Srpska felt that the flag was mostly represented the Bosnian muslim, so the flag and the national anthem was changed.

However, because of "Jedna si jedina"'s alleged close association with the Bosniak community (and perceived exclusion of the Bosnian Croat and Bosnian Serb communities, although it does not mention Bosniak community nor any other nation), a new anthem - "Intermeco" - was adopted in 1998. "Jedna si jedina" is still considered by some Bosniaks to be the real anthem of Bosnia and Herzegovina

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 04:06 AM
thats what the Bosnian President Alija Izetbegovic thought, when Bosnian became independent and US and Europe recognized it, but they just turned their backs and came in when it was way too late.

US and Europe had a duty to Bosnia I felt after recognising the independence as it was that event which sparked off the Serbian onslaught. Milosevic paniced as he realised he had lost control over "Yugoslavia." Instead he used the excuse that he was saving the Serbs from the evil Croats/Bosnian Muslims :rolleyes:

US-Europe following up the recognition with protection - knowing fully well it would cause outrage in Serbia - is the least they could have done and I don't blame Izetbegovic for expecting this!

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 04:09 AM
as i said the whole Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Croat and Bosnian Bosnak confuses a lot of people that are not from the region.

Bosnian Bosnaks wanted to have entire Bosnian as their own, just like Serbia and Croatia have their own counties.

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/4679/bkmappm6.th.png (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bkmappm6.png) you can see here, Croatia on the bottom left and Serbia on the upper right.
than within Bosnia, you have F of BIH and Republica Srpska

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 04:11 AM
The country is home to three ethnic "constituent peoples": Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. Regardless of ethnicity, a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina is often identified in English as a Bosnian. In Bosnia though, the distinction between a Bosnian and a Herzegovinian is maintained, again without regard to actual ethnicity. The country is decentralized and is administratively divided into two entities, the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Republika Srpska.

in 1995, when they signed the Dayton Accord, Bosnia became: Federation of Bosnian and Hercegovina(mostly Muslims) and Republica Srpska(mostly serbs)
Srpska felt that the flag was mostly represented the Bosnian muslim, so the flag and the national anthem was changed.

ah I see! I guess sometimes when different sections of the community come together as one there needs to be some sort of inclusive measure and sadly the flag and anthem were sacrificed. Maybe they should do what they do in Ireland and use two official anthems? It would cause a lot less resentment in my opinion.

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 04:14 AM
as i said the whole Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Croat and Bosnian Bosnak confuses a lot of people that are not from the region.

Bosnian Bosnaks wanted to have entire Bosnian as their own, just like Serbia and Croatia have their own counties.

Realistically though that was never going to be the case with almost 40% of the population in Bosnia prior to the conflict being from Serbian origin. Things should have been worked out peacefully though not the ridiculous panic way Milosevic went about it.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 04:15 AM
so currently the Bosnia has 3 presidents which rotate on 8 month bases
one from F of BIH
one from Rep Srpska
and a Croat( which i dont get why a Croat is need)

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 04:16 AM
Is your area Banjo Luka still under Bosnian Serb rule then? But I take it you personally are Bosnian Muslim?

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 04:16 AM
Realistically though that was never going to be the case with almost 40% of the population in Bosnia prior to the conflict being from Serbian origin. Things should have been worked out peacefully though not the ridiculous panic way Milosevic went about it.

i agree, but the % is always argued.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 04:20 AM
Is your area Banjo Luka still under Bosnian Serb rule then? But I take it you personally are Bosnian Muslim?

yes and yes. but i can travel there with a Bosnian passport(now i have US passport;) )
Banja-Luka has pretty much became the capital of Republica Srpska.
for most part now, Bosnian Serb/Bosnian get along, i have family that have gone back since and its fine now. of my family members is a Bosnak and a high officer in the police in Banja Luka.

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 04:20 AM
so currently the Bosnia has 3 presidents which rotate on 8 month bases
one from F of BIH
one from Rep Srpska
and a Croat( which i dont get why a Croat is need)

I guess it's just an appeasement measure whilst the two different sections of Bosnia take time to settle down without the threat of any conflict. With Serbia itself now exerting little influence in Bosnia there will at least be less of a threat of an implosion in relations. I guess the Croat is there on a mediation basis really to stay neutral, but I can't see that being the case in the long term - especially when the country is admitted to the EU.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 04:24 AM
right now Bosniaks pretty much got what they wanted in 1991, expect the part that is governed by Republica Srpaka.
they got F of B and H
The Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina is primarily inhabited by Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats, which is why it is informally referred to as the Bosniak-Croat Federation. However, by decision of the Constitutional court in 2001, the Serbs were declared the third constituent ethnic group of the Federation. The same happened to Bosniaks and Croats in the Republika Srpska

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 04:29 AM
yes and yes. but i can travel there with a Bosnian passport(now i have US passport;) )
Banja-Luka has pretty much became the capital of Republica Srpska.
for most part now, Bosnian Serb/Bosnian get along, i have family that have gone back since and its fine now. of my family members is a Bosnak and a high officer in the police in Banja Luka.

It must be a lot more comforting now that the Serbs and Muslims can live freely in both sections of the country. Was that the case prior to Milosevic's war campaign?

Bosnia can only grow and prosper as a country under the new situation. Milosevic was committing suicide with his actions as they have almost certainly set back Serbia by about 20 years.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 04:31 AM
Flag of Bosnia and Hercegovina- http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9826/bosnianflagbw2.th.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bosnianflagbw2.jpg)
within, as i said there is F of B and H (which i support) which has this flag
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5233/800pxflagofthefederatiodg2.th.png (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=800pxflagofthefederatiodg2.png)

and Republica Srpska which has this flag http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3733/barsbs1.th.gif (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barsbs1.gif)

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 04:33 AM
It must be a lot more comforting now that the Serbs and Muslims can live freely in both sections of the country. Was that the case prior to Milosevic's war campaign?

Bosnia can only grow and prosper as a country under the new situation. Milosevic was committing suicide with his actions as they have almost certainly set back Serbia by about 20 years.


before Milosevic there was no bad blood, Muslims and Serbs were best friends, think of Davis Cup team with Ljubicic, Ancic, Djokovic...all those soccer players that left and could have been one team....the basketball teams...all gone....
going back to Tito, everyone was happy when he was in charge.

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 04:34 AM
right now Bosniaks pretty much got what they wanted in 1991, expect the part that is governed by Republica Srpaka.
they got F of B and H
The Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina is primarily inhabited by Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats, which is why it is informally referred to as the Bosniak-Croat Federation. However, by decision of the Constitutional court in 2001, the Serbs were declared the third constituent ethnic group of the Federation. The same happened to Bosniaks and Croats in the Republika Srpska

Yep that's true and probably there are now a lot less Serbs in Bosnia as well. Immediately after the breakup of Yugoslavia I'm sure the Bosniaks were well aware and willing to accept that a large percent of their country was to include Bosnian Serbs.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 04:35 AM
Yep that's true and probably there are now a lot less Serbs in Bosnia as well. Immediately after the breakup of Yugoslavia I'm sure the Bosniaks were well aware and willing to accept that a large percent of their country was to include Bosnian Serbs.

yes. they were not about to start cleaning out Bosnian Serbs, like Serbs did with Bosniaks in serbia.

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 04:37 AM
and Republica Srpska which has this flag http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3733/barsbs1.th.gif (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barsbs1.gif)

That's also the Serbian flag isn't it?

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 04:38 AM
That's also the Serbian flag isn't it?
they have a crest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Serbia.svg

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 04:39 AM
a lot of Serbians blame the whole war starting because Alija Izetbegovic wanted a independent Bosnia, but what was he suppose to do, when over 90% of Bosnia wanted the same thing and didnt want to be controlled by Belgrade
Croatia and Slovenia, left before Bosnia.

this whole thing went down hill when Tito was gone.

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 04:45 AM
before Milosevic there was no bad blood, Muslims and Serbs were best friends, think of Davis Cup team with Ljubicic, Ancic, Djokovic...all those soccer players that left and could have been one team....the basketball teams...all gone....
going back to Tito, everyone was happy when he was in charge.

Yes that's true - Yugoslavia was a very strong country and had an excellent football team for example, but this has not been the case so much since the breakup. That sort of Davis Cup team could end up unbeatable I agree. Also if I remember corectly before the conflict, Red Star won the European Cup? In the 1990s some time.

Tito will go down as a great leader no question of that. Very few people managed to manipulate the Soviets and US to such a great effect as he did. He played a major role in the liberation of Yugoslavia after the actions of the traitor government who went into cahoots with Germany/Italy. He helped calm any tensions in Yugoslavia caused after the breakup of the Austrian Empire after WW1 and was probably the only Eastern European leader to stand up to the Soviet Union!

yes. they were not about to start cleaning out Bosnian Serbs, like Serbs did with Bosniaks in serbia.

Milosevic was completely misguided and his excuses for the war were completely false and he oviously had his own agenda.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 04:51 AM
Yes that's true - Yugoslavia was a very strong country and had an excellent football team for example, but this has not been the case so much since the breakup. That sort of Davis Cup team could end up unbeatable I agree. Also if I remember corectly before the conflict, Red Star won the European Cup? In the 1990s some time.

Tito will go down as a great leader no question of that. Very few people managed to manipulate the Soviets and US to such a great effect as he did. He played a major role in the liberation of Yugoslavia after the actions of the traitor government who went into cahoots with Germany/Italy. He helped calm any tensions in Yugoslavia caused after the breakup of the Austrian Empire after WW1 and was probably the only Eastern European leader to stand up to the Soviet Union!



Milosevic was completely misguided and his excuses for the war were completely false and he oviously had his own agenda.

Red Star won in 1991, just before the war, alot of players on that team played for the Croatian 1998 team at the World Cup and Partizan(who played in the UEFA Champs League)
when Red Star and Partizan played in the late 80's...there was over 108,000 in attendance

TMJordan
04-10-2007, 04:52 AM
I just read most of that wikipedia page and I feel sick right now. :sad:

This reminds me of somthing that happened about 65-70 years ago but was about 100 times worse, I hate thinking about these type of things. :sad:

Please, no more of this. :sad:

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 04:57 AM
a lot of Serbians blame the whole war starting because Alija Izetbegovic wanted a independent Bosnia, but what was he suppose to do, when over 90% of Bosnia wanted the same thing and didnt want to be controlled by Belgrade
Croatia and Slovenia, left before Bosnia.

this whole thing went down hill when Tito was gone.

There would have been absolute outrage in Bosnia had Izetbegovic decide not to go for independence especially after the other two already had.

After Tito died, the Soviet Union were not in a very strong position so in effect Yugoslavia were unable to get as much out of them as before. The United States realised this and also did not feel as compelled to take an interest in the country (Soviets were no threat there anymore). Maybe that's why the country began to fall into a decline and nationalist sentiments were born with the breakup following.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 05:01 AM
I just read most of that wikipedia page and I feel sick right now. :sad:

This reminds me of somthing that happened about 65-70 years ago but was about 100 times worse, I hate thinking about these type of things. :sad:

Please, no more of this. :sad:
want to really feel sick...this is probably the worst... i think both sides knew they f'ed up when this happend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeo_and_Juliet_in_Sarajevo

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 05:01 AM
Red Star won in 1991, just before the war, alot of players on that team played for the Croatian 1998 team at the World Cup and Partizan(who played in the UEFA Champs League)
when Red Star and Partizan played in the late 80's...there was over 108,000 in attendance

It's sad how the war has basically rid Europe of such an awesome team as Red Star who were up there with the Milan's, Real Madrid's etc.

That's a crazy attendence! Sadly I just read on Wiki, that derby match only attracted 8,000 fans last year. :(

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 05:03 AM
I just read most of that wikipedia page and I feel sick right now. :sad:

This reminds me of somthing that happened about 65-70 years ago but was about 100 times worse, I hate thinking about these type of things. :sad:

Please, no more of this. :sad:

Yeah it is really awful and was very sad to constantly watch every day on the tv :sad: After WW2 I'm sure nobody would have ever imagined such a devastating war and ethnic cleansing could ever take place in Europe again.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 05:05 AM
Two young lovers from Sarajevo, shot dead by sniper fire as they tried to escape the siege of Sarajevo in 1993, were brought home and reburied together Wednesday.

Admira Ismic and Bosko Brkic were dubbed "Romeo and Juliet" because of their clashing ethnic backgrounds -- she was Muslim, he was Serbian -- and their tragic end. The two were both 25 years old, and had been together for nine years. They decided to flee Sarajevo in May 1993, when a Serb stranglehold on the city was at its height, to escape to safety, anywhere else.

Friends in the Muslim government army promised them safe passage out of the city. They walked confidently from Bosnian government front lines in the heart of the city past snipers and towards the bridge they would take out of Sarajevo and into Grbavica, a Serb-held territory. From there they hoped to go on to Belgrade -- and a new life.


But as they crossed the Vrbanja bridge in broad daylight, over the Miljacka River into Serb territory, Bosko was shot by sniper fire, and died. Ismic, also wounded by sniper fire, crawled to her childhood sweetheart, put an arm around him, and died at his side, never trying to escape to safety herself.

Their tragic story was told worldwide over the next week as Serbs and Muslims argued over who was responsible for shooting them, and which side should risk the treacherous journey onto the bridge to recover the bodies and bury them.

The couple's bodies laid side by side on the bridge for eight days, until finally the Serbian side went in under cover of night to drag the corpses away. Muslim prisoners later claimed they were tethered by their Serbian captors and forced to go out on the bridge to drag the by-then decaying bodies back.

Serb troops buried the pair in Lukavica, the site of a large Serb army barracks. But Admira's father Zijah felt that with the war over, the right resting place for the star-crossed pair was in the city where they met and fell in love. Thus it was that the bodies of Admira and Bosko were exhumed from an untended grave in Yugoslavia and shipped back to the city whose wartime strife they tried to escape.


They were buried side by side Wednesday in Lion Cemetery, surrounded by thousands of other victims of the Sarajevo siege and within sight of the cafe where they courted. Zijah said he had tried without success to find Bosko's family and get permission for the reburial. Bosko's mother came from the Yugoslav capital of Belgrade in 1993 for the first funeral.


But he expressed no regrets at bringing the bodies home. "This is where they were killed and this is where they should have been buried," he said, as his wife Nermina sobbed beside the grave.

Friends also gathered to remember the couple, who once foretold their fate when they said that "only a bullet" could separate them.

"Back then, we thought you would make it and be happy together. But you didn't," said Bosko's friend, who identified himself only as Dino. "It is as if every great love must end like this."

TMJordan
04-10-2007, 05:08 AM
want to really feel sick...this is probably the worst... i think both sides knew they f'ed up when this happend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeo_and_Juliet_in_Sarajevo

:sad:

TMJordan
04-10-2007, 05:10 AM
Yeah it is really awful and was very sad to constantly watch every day on the tv :sad: After WW2 I'm sure nobody would have ever imagined such a devastating war and ethnic cleansing could ever take place in Europe again.

I was a very young kid when this was going on and did not see much on tv here in Canada, but how somthing like this can happen on European soil after WW2 is really discusting.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 05:12 AM
there are a lot of Srebrenica's just in smaller numbers.

The Koricani Cliffs massacre was a mass murder of more than 200 Bosniak men by a Serbian reserve police unit from the town of Prijedor (western Bosnia and Herzegovina).

On August 21, 1992, a number of people were evacuated from the Trnopolje camp, and they were to be transported to Muslim controlled territory in central Bosnia. However, on Mt. Vlašić, some 200 men were separated after they were told they would be exchanged and they were then taken to a nearby cliff. There they became victims of a monstrous crime as they were all shot and thrown down a 200 meters high cliff by a group of reserve policemen from Prijedor. Seven men, however, survived the shooting and fall down the abyss

TMJordan
04-10-2007, 05:14 AM
It doesnt really say what has happened too all the people who commited the crimes, I'm sure ther are tons of murderers alive and well living throughout the former Yuogoslavia.

Says some guys have been convicted and some are still awaiting trail, I'm sure most are in jail now?

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 05:16 AM
this is the guy that the whole world wants to find.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratko_Mladi%C4%87

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 05:17 AM
Gosh what a sad story that is :sad: It really brings it home when you hear of human stories such as that :sad:


I was a very young kid when this was going on and did not see much on tv here in Canada, but how somthing like this can happen on European soil after WW2 is really discusting.

Yeah I agree with you especially during the 1990s and well late 90s in the case of Kosovo. You'd have thought the Serbs would have known better especially considering the pounding Belgrade took during WW2 when it was struck by German bombers in 1941 and then by the British and Americans in 1944!

TMJordan
04-10-2007, 05:19 AM
He is still at large?

I'm sure tons of them escaped.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 05:21 AM
He is still at large?

I'm sure tons of them escaped.

yeah, mostly likely in Greece or Russia...

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 05:22 AM
there are a lot of Srebrenica's just in smaller numbers.

The Koricani Cliffs massacre was a mass murder of more than 200 Bosniak men by a Serbian reserve police unit from the town of Prijedor (western Bosnia and Herzegovina).

On August 21, 1992, a number of people were evacuated from the Trnopolje camp, and they were to be transported to Muslim controlled territory in central Bosnia. However, on Mt. Vlašić, some 200 men were separated after they were told they would be exchanged and they were then taken to a nearby cliff. There they became victims of a monstrous crime as they were all shot and thrown down a 200 meters high cliff by a group of reserve policemen from Prijedor. Seven men, however, survived the shooting and fall down the abyss

All really sick crimes and sadly the current Serbian government are disrespecting the victims by not forcing the handover of the murderers and leaders to a war crimes tribunal.

TMJordan
04-10-2007, 05:24 AM
I hate ending my day reading and thinking about these kind of things, I have too clear my mind before I goto bed, TRY to have a nice night fellas :wavey:


:sad:

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 05:27 AM
It doesnt really say what has happened too all the people who commited the crimes, I'm sure ther are tons of murderers alive and well living throughout the former Yuogoslavia.

Says some guys have been convicted and some are still awaiting trail, I'm sure most are in jail now?

A lot of them are still about but are being protected inside Serbia. It is dpoing Serbia no favours though as they will never be taken seriously (EU membership etc) until they are handed over.

this is the guy that the whole world wants to find.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratko_Mladi%C4%87

There were rumours a few years back that he had been killed but this wasn't the case. I am almost positive that should Serbia choose to then they could easily flush out Mladic and the rest of his cronies.

MissPovaFan
04-10-2007, 05:29 AM
I hate ending my day reading and thinking about these kind of things, I have too clear my mind before I goto bed, TRY to have a nice night fellas :wavey:


:sad:

Yeah me too I'd best be off as it's 5:30am here! It will only be a matter of time before the culprits are brought to justice, but the EU need to speed up that process by keeping up the pressure on Serbia.

Nighty both :wavey:

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 05:30 AM
:wavey:

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 05:50 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Entity_Boundary_Line
Inter-Entity Boundary Line
Today the IEBL between Republika Srpska and the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina is no longer controlled by the military and is not policed. There are no border controls, and crossing the IEBL is akin to crossing a U.S. state boundary.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 05:54 AM
The war created ‘Republika Srpska Krajina’ in Croatia and ‘Republika Srpska’ in Bosnia-Herzegovina. But whereas the international community helped to restore Croatia within its own borders, they divided Bosnia into two entities whose borders were established at Dayton in November 1995. This settlement, intended to end the war, has no terminal point. It was reached with the participation of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro - a legal absurdity, since only a country’s own citizens have the right to shape their future. The entities and their borders are equally preposterous: they are unnatural, historically and economically unjustified, and ethnically unfounded. A height of absurdity is represented by the district of Brčko, whose sole purpose is to tie together the northern and eastern segments of Republika Srpska. (According to the 1991 census, the population of the present-day Brčko district was only 20% Serb.)


Such a resort to the ethnic principle in territorial demarcation on the part of the international community is unreal and impractical. In all democratic constitutions, citizens not nations appear as the normative category. It is not surprising that Dayton Bosnia-Herzegovina cannot function. This weird construction, which has no perspective, awaits a final dissolution. What is worrying is that an essentially anarchic situation is being allowed to continue, although it is unsuitable for a prolonged duration and injurious to both the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its citizens

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 06:00 AM
I have no idea why they think this will work, it has bad news written all over it.
It has its own army, the Vojska Federacije Bosne i Hercegovine, though it is under the control of the state-level Bosnia-Herzegovina Ministry of Defense, as is the Vojska Republike Srpske. Entity armies (including Vojska Republike Srpske) should have been united by the end of the 2005 and entity-level Ministry of Defence and their armies should have been abolished by January 1, 2006. It now seems that a unified army will be created by the end of 2007,[1] although some units have already been merged.[2]

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 06:06 AM
To help people understand:

Today there is

Bosnia and Hercegovina, which has 2 entities

Federation of Bosnia and Hercegovina- mostly populated and controlled by Bosnian Bosniaks, includes small % of Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats

and Republica Srpska- populated by Bosnian Serbs, includes small % of Bosnian Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats.

Presidents of Bosnia and Hercegovina- 1 Bosniak, 1 Bosnian Serb and 1 Bosnian Croat. rotate every 8months, as the chairman of the presidency


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina for complete details...its really confusing, even for those who live there :lol:

Jim Jones
04-10-2007, 12:59 PM
I don't know why you are complaining Cardinals, the system sounds good to me. All 3 ethnicities have their own area and Serb part is autonomous. So Serbs will see that they did not lose all the wars. Bosniaks will have Sarajevo and Croats will have their area.

By the way I saw your biography here which says that Bosnia is mostly a Muslim nation. That is false. There are more Christians then Muslims living in Bosnia. The Orthodox and Catholics added together outnumber the Muslims. Also there are Muslims living in Serbia such as in Prejovo Valley. So if people want the Christians to leave Bosnia then shouldn't Muslims leave Serbia and Kosovo?.....I am for no one leaving anywhere. There has been enough division. Serba and Bosnia should remain multi-ethnic societies.

this is the real flag of the Bosnian Muslims, the current one was created by Euro's, which no Bosnian Muslim will ever respect.
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4453/3333vu3.th.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3333vu3.jpg)

It may be the flag of Bosniaks (Muslims) but it is not the flag of Bosnia since Serbs and Croats won't accept it.

buddyholly
04-10-2007, 01:41 PM
Bosnians, Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Albanians, Montenegrans, Herzegovinians etc, etc. I could not and still can not ever get it all straight in my head.
Why can't they all be like Northern Ireland and just have two sides, so it's all very easy to follow?

Shortly after the war I had reason to be close by, in Romania. My hosts warned me not to go out in the street alone because Romania had a big problem - gypsies. During my one week stay this subject kept coming up and often led to talk of the need for a "solution to the gypsy problem.'' When my hosts finally declared themselves in favour of a Hitler-like solution to the gypsy problem and confessed to admiration for the Nazis, I realized that Eastern Europe was not for me, at least not in the forseeable future.

Iza
04-10-2007, 02:32 PM
buddyholly, I live in Romania and I can assure you that no gypsies are being mass-murdered because they are gypsies. Discriminated? Yes. But murdered? No. We do have a crazy guy called Vadim Tudor who the founder and the leader of PRM, right-wing extremists, who hate Hungarians and gypsies but I don't think they have chances of winning the elections :unsure: and even if God forbif they would do that, I don't think they'd create extermination camps for these 2 ethnical groups. There is quite a big hatred towards Hungarians because of the history and most Romanians are freaked out that "Hungarians will steal their country" which is obviously absurd. I am half-Hungarian and I am proud of my background, however I feel very Romanian and don't think it's necessary to hate anyone just because of what happened in the past. And as for gypsies, well they're mostly the reason why Romania's image across the world is so stained. They go to countries like Spain, Italy or France and beg on the streets, and sometimes steal and stuff, which makes foreigners say "aaah Romania, that gypsy country". Thus the hate towards them.

And as for the subject of this thread....it's so sad :sad: I never knew what was happening in the neighbouring countries :sad: I was very young then (about 6-7 years old) and now I feel so sad reading all about it :awww:
and can you believe what happened to the bastard Milosevic?? He had a good time in a 5-star cell in Hague, prolly got his own sauna and massage room and dat and then died peacefully, without paying one shit to the ones he killed or terrorized. What the hell did the International Court wait for??? Milosevic to say "yes I'm a bloody mass-murderer, please execute me!!!"
gosh they make me sick. sick sick sick.

Jim Jones
04-10-2007, 03:05 PM
And as for the subject of this thread....it's so sad :sad: I never knew what was happening in the neighbouring countries :sad: I was very young then (about 6-7 years old) and now I feel so sad reading all about it :awww:
and can you believe what happened to the bastard Milosevic?? He had a good time in a 5-star cell in Hague, prolly got his own sauna and massage room and dat and then died peacefully, without paying one shit to the ones he killed or terrorized. What the hell did the International Court wait for??? Milosevic to say "yes I'm a bloody mass-murderer, please execute me!!!"
gosh they make me sick. sick sick sick.
Yes, and the UN was complaining that Saddam was not judged by int. court. :lol: At least he was sentenced on time.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 05:30 PM
By the way I saw your biography here which says that Bosnia is mostly a Muslim nation. That is false. There are more Christians then Muslims living in Bosnia. The Orthodox and Catholics added together outnumber the Muslims. Also there are Muslims living in Serbia such as in Prejovo Valley. So if people want the Christians to leave Bosnia then shouldn't Muslims leave Serbia and Kosovo?.....I am for no one leaving anywhere. There has been enough division. Serba and Bosnia should remain multi-ethnic societies.
.

when Bosnia declared independence in 1992, their goal was not to became a Muslim nation, with only Muslims living there. just wanted to be independent nation, like any other. with Bosnian Christians, Muslims, Catholics living in it. but when Serbs started killing Muslims, thats when it turned into a religous war.
also not all Serbs are Christian or all Croats Catholic, but it is in the 90% and 95% Bosniaks are Muslim.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 05:35 PM
can you believe what happened to the bastard Milosevic?? He had a good time in a 5-star cell in Hague, prolly got his own sauna and massage room and dat and then died peacefully, without paying one shit to the ones he killed or terrorized. What the hell did the International Court wait for??? Milosevic to say "yes I'm a bloody mass-murderer, please execute me!!!"
gosh they make me sick. sick sick sick.

Dead on March 11 2006 :yeah:

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 05:38 PM
All 3 leaders when the war started are dead now

Milosevic- Serb march 11 2006
Izetbegovic- Bosniak- october 19 2003
Tudjman- Croat- december 10, 1999

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 06:16 PM
I don't know why you are complaining Cardinals, the system sounds good to me. All 3 ethnicities have their own area and Serb part is autonomous. So Serbs will see that they did not lose all the wars. Bosniaks will have Sarajevo and Croats will have their area.

By the way I saw your biography here which says that Bosnia is mostly a Muslim nation. That is false. There are more Christians then Muslims living in Bosnia. The Orthodox and Catholics added together outnumber the Muslims. Also there are Muslims living in Serbia such as in Prejovo Valley. So if people want the Christians to leave Bosnia then shouldn't Muslims leave Serbia and Kosovo?.....I am for no one leaving anywhere. There has been enough division. Serba and Bosnia should remain multi-ethnic societies.



It may be the flag of Bosniaks (Muslims) but it is not the flag of Bosnia since Serbs and Croats won't accept it.

watch the Death Of Yugoslavia doc on youtube. both Bosniaks and Croats(which had about 68% of people) wanted independence for Bosnia

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 06:28 PM
Death of Yugoslavia

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyNWUoN42UY&mode=related&search=

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFyLaqDucj8&mode=related&search=

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBfpF1yUnDg&mode=related&search=

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBkoFoP8VYs&mode=related&search=

Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZWbjUwK0zg&mode=related&search=

Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33HP-JTMqFQ&mode=related&search=

Part 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dVTga0xJ6w&mode=related&search=

Part 8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTarQPgkg94&mode=related&search=

Part 9: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypH6J1vqnA4&mode=related&search=

Voo de Mar
04-10-2007, 06:29 PM
Dead on March 11 2006 :yeah:

He should fry in the hell :devil:

Jim Jones
04-10-2007, 07:05 PM
watch the Death Of Yugoslavia doc on youtube. both Bosniaks and Croats(which had about 68% of people) wanted independence for Bosnia

I was old enough to follow the news. 68% of them voted for independance but the serb community mostly boycotted the vote and as you know the Croats want to be seperate from the Bosniaks as you can see in Mostar. Kosovo won't be independant because Russia which is part of the Security Council will veto any move towards independance. Kosovo will be like Taiwan, indepeandnt in all but name. So part of old Yugoslavia will stille xist in Serbia and don't forget Republic of Serpska. I am pro Serb so you can see I am a bit baised. :)

Oh you said that Muslims and Croats are getting closer together but I have a Croat friend and he tells me that things are still tense in Mostar. All 3 communities are divided like sshiites and sunnis but I think that the slavs are still closer then slavs with Albanians, Slovenes etc..

Your nation is good as it is. Keep it up.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 07:09 PM
I was old enough to follow the news. 68% of them voted for independance but the serb community mostly boycotted the vote and as you know the Croats want to be seperate from the Bosniaks as you can see in Mostar. Kosovo won't be independant because Russia which is part of the Security Council will veto any move towards independance. Oh you said that Muslims and Croats are getting closer together but I have a Croat friend and he tells me that things are still tense in Mostar. All 3 communities are divided like sshiites and sunnis but I think that the slavs are still closer then slavs with Albanians, Slovenes etc..

Your nation is good as it is. Keep it up.

after what happend, of course there will be few who will still hate each other, but both sides Bosnian Serbs and Bosniaks were lucky the 1995 Dayton Accord was signed....from 1993-1995, Bosniaks went from 25% control of Bosnia to 51%.thanks to the help from the Croats,Turks and Iranians and volunteer fighters from the mideast.
and for Bosniaks the accord ended the war.

Iza
04-10-2007, 07:29 PM
Dead on March 11 2006 :yeah:

that's what i was saying. he died. just like that. without paying anything. I hope divine justice gave him what human justice didn't. which is, I hope he burns in hell seeing the face of each person who died in the war.

zicofirol
04-10-2007, 08:29 PM
Kosovo won't be independant because Russia which is part of the Security Council will veto any move towards independance. Kosovo will be like Taiwan, indepeandnt in all but name. .

Kosovo was never and independent state right? It has always been serbian territory, if this is the case, it would be a grave injustice against serbia to give independence to Kosovo...

scarecrows
04-10-2007, 08:31 PM
Kosovo was never and independent state right? It has always been serbian territory, if this is the case, it would be a grave injustice against serbia to give independence to Kosovo...

try to learn more

R.Federer
04-10-2007, 09:20 PM
Why didn't the US go in to stop these atrocities? They are EVERYWHERE for the good of mankind. I mean, yes, there was no oil but surely the US is not THAT despicable ... ? :confused:

Iza
04-10-2007, 09:44 PM
well it turns out that they actually are :shrug:

Note: if you're American, don't take it personal, I'm talking about the army/external policy, not the American people in general)

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 09:55 PM
I was old enough to follow the news. 68% of them voted for independance but the serb community mostly boycotted the vote .
by the way to vote was not 68-32 for Independence without Serb vote.
Bosnians population 68% (49%Bosniaks/19%Croats,) who all wanted Independence.
it doesnt matter if they boycotted, 68% didnt want to be controlled by Serbia, 2/3 is always bigger that 1/3. Yugoslavia was falling apart well before Bosnia became independent. Slovenia and Croatia left.
After Bosnia became independent did they start kicking out or killing Bosnian Serbs? No. what happened next? Bosnian Serbs with help of Serbia and Milosevic started killing Bosnianks/Croats in the area where they had the majority.

well 12 years after the war, it seems that Bosnian Bosniaks/Croats won, they got their own country (Federation of Bosnia and Hercegovina) and Republica Srpska didnt get to stay with Serbia and now are controlled by Sarajevo and their leader Karadzic and army lead Mladic are hiding like cowards.
while Bosniak army leader in Srebrenica Naser Oric turned himself in and was let go.
and Serbia wrote their ticket to no where with not stoping the Bosnian Serbs and helping them.

Jim Jones
04-10-2007, 10:25 PM
by the way to vote was not 68-32 for Independence without Serb vote.
Bosnians population 68% (49%Bosniaks/19%Croats,) who all wanted Independence.
it doesnt matter if they boycotted, 68% didnt want to be controlled by Serbia, 2/3 is always bigger that 1/3. Yugoslavia was falling apart well before Bosnia became independent. Slovenia and Croatia left.
After Bosnia became independent did they start kicking out or killing Bosnian Serbs? No. what happened next? Bosnian Serbs with help of Serbia and Milosevic started killing Bosnianks/Croats in the area where they had the majority.

well 12 years after the war, it seems that Bosnian Bosniaks/Croats won, they got their own country (Federation of Bosnia and Hercegovina) and Republica Srpska didnt get to stay with Serbia and now are controlled by Sarajevo.
and Serbia wrote their ticket to no where with not stoping the Bosnian Serbs and helping them.
Izebegovic was considered a criminal by many on the same level as tujman and Mislosevic. So no I don't think that bosniaks and croats were always victims. Ofcourse I realize that most of the killings was done by Serbs. But there are muslims and Croats who were sentenced at the Hague.

Sarajevo does not control Republic of Serpska. Serpska is as autonomous as Kosovo but yeah neither will become independant. I told you I support the status quo i.e no independance for Serpska and kosovo.

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 10:31 PM
Izebegovic was considered a criminal by many on the same level as tujman and Mislosevic. So no I don't think that bosniaks and croats were always victims. Ofcourse I realize that most of the killings was done by Serbs. But there are muslims and Croats who were sentenced at the Hague.

Sarajevo does not control Republic of Serpska. Serpska is as autonomous as Kosovo but yeah neither will become independant. I told you I support the status quo i.e no independance for Serpska and kosovo.

of course all 3 sides did commited crimes but like you say most of them were done by Serbs, who made the war a religous war, which it didnt have to be...
Bosnian Serbs were winning and taking almost 75% of Bosnia when Serbs were helping, but than when Croatia started to help Bosniaks and they started to gain back, UN stepped in, if the war went couple more years, Republica Srpska would not be today. they should be lucky with the 49% that they got.

but i cant see it working, forceing two different types of people to be one will not work, see Israel.
i guess they are taking steps forward with the Rep.Srpska army joining the Fed of Bosnia Army.(controlled by the Federation/Sarajevo)

El Legenda
04-10-2007, 10:41 PM
Jimbo what do you think would have happend to Bosnia if it stay part of Yugoslavia/Serbia? which would have been about 3million Bosniaks and 11million Serbs and some Croats, maybe 800k

Julio1974
04-10-2007, 10:50 PM
Why didn't the US go in to stop these atrocities? They are EVERYWHERE for the good of mankind. I mean, yes, there was no oil but surely the US is not THAT despicable ... ? :confused:

The genocide in Bosnia and Rwanda took place during Clinton's presidency. Ironically, he is still one of the most respected Presidents of the US abroad.

In any case, you should also ask what Europe was doing with the problem in Yugoslavia, because the country is in Europe and it was an European problem.

R.Federer
04-10-2007, 11:04 PM
In any case, you should also ask what Europe was doing with the problem in Yugoslavia, because the country is in Europe and it was an European problem.

The Europeans do not typically race off to save humanity in far flung (or within Europe) lands without pressure from the US. You might have noticed terms like "US-led coalition", even for Iraq. Unfortunately, European governments can in fact sometimes be accused of being spineless. Especially in the face of the might of US "diplomacy", but they have rarely taken the initiative in post WW2 peace-keeping.

zicofirol
04-11-2007, 12:01 AM
Why didn't the US go in to stop these atrocities? They are EVERYWHERE for the good of mankind. I mean, yes, there was no oil but surely the US is not THAT despicable ... ? :confused:

didn't the US bomb serbia, eventually....

What your saying is the US should intervene when YOU think its right for them to intervene? The USA should of not got into the conflict, serbia posed no threat to the US and the use of military force on serbia was uncalled for... If anything the Europeans should of done something...

zicofirol
04-11-2007, 12:02 AM
well it turns out that they actually are :shrug:

Note: if you're American, don't take it personal, I'm talking about the army/external policy, not the American people in general)

you mean like in WWII? or like in Korea?

buddyholly
04-11-2007, 12:16 AM
And as for gypsies, well they're mostly the reason why Romania's image across the world is so stained. They go to countries like Spain, Italy or France and beg on the streets, and sometimes steal and stuff, which makes foreigners say "aaah Romania, that gypsy country". Thus the hate towards them.



But have you stopped to ask yourself why they left Romania? They are also called Romanys, you know, Romania is their homeland.
I am not totally sure of the facts, but I think the Communist government drove them into poverty and did not allow them to live in their traditional style. Then when they had been deprived of everything, they were accused of being no-goods.

While I was there, it was people representing the government and trying to attract investment to the ''new'' Romania that felt it necessary to explain that the gypsy problem would be solved and not to worry. Their attitude had the opposite effect on me, it was they themselves that made me hurry to the airport.

R.Federer
04-11-2007, 12:21 AM
didn't the US bomb serbia, eventually....

What your saying is the US should intervene when YOU think its right for them to intervene? The USA should of not got into the conflict, serbia posed no threat to the US and the use of military force on serbia was uncalled for... If anything the Europeans should of done something...

Somalia did not pose a threat to the US either. Nor did Granada, or .... Panama. :lol:

By the way, I asked a question: "Why didn't the US..?" which puts your interpretation of it as "the US should intervene when YOU think its right" as odd.

zicofirol
04-11-2007, 12:49 AM
Somalia did not pose a threat to the US either. Nor did Granada, or .... Panama. :lol:

By the way, I asked a question: "Why didn't the US..?" which puts your interpretation of it as "the US should intervene when YOU think its right" as odd.

well you do think the US should of intervened, right?

Jim Jones
04-11-2007, 01:17 AM
Somalia did not pose a threat to the US either. Nor did Granada, or .... Panama. :lol:

By the way, I asked a question: "Why didn't the US..?" which puts your interpretation of it as "the US should intervene when YOU think its right" as odd.

Grenada and Panama are stable nations. So what teh U.S. did can be considered good. As for Somalia currently it is Ethiopia in the nation not U.S. Sure I know what happened in 1993. That was wrong. It should have been Saudi Arabia who should have helped it.

MissPovaFan
04-11-2007, 01:34 AM
Shortly after the war I had reason to be close by, in Romania. My hosts warned me not to go out in the street alone because Romania had a big problem - gypsies. During my one week stay this subject kept coming up and often led to talk of the need for a "solution to the gypsy problem.'' When my hosts finally declared themselves in favour of a Hitler-like solution to the gypsy problem and confessed to admiration for the Nazis, I realized that Eastern Europe was not for me, at least not in the forseeable future.

There is definitely a problem with gypsies in Romania with almost 10% of the population made up by gypsies! Despite the fact they have been in Romania for hundreds of years it is mainly their own fault they are discriminated against as they made no effort whatsoever to integrate. They were treated well whilst the country was Communist but since the country's economy declined they were used as scapegoats by many - pointing them out as parasites. Due to the high rate of poverty and disease amongst the gypsies they are always given the cold shoulder by the better classes in Romania. The right wing attitude that you came across has been born out of frustration at the lack of direction in the country and the fact that it can almost be described as a failing country - hopefully for it's sake the inclusion in the European Union has an affect sooner rather than later!

buddyholly, I live in Romania and I can assure you that no gypsies are being mass-murdered because they are gypsies. Discriminated? Yes. But murdered? No. We do have a crazy guy called Vadim Tudor who the founder and the leader of PRM, right-wing extremists, who hate Hungarians and gypsies but I don't think they have chances of winning the elections :unsure: and even if God forbif they would do that, I don't think they'd create extermination camps for these 2 ethnical groups. There is quite a big hatred towards Hungarians because of the history and most Romanians are freaked out that "Hungarians will steal their country" which is obviously absurd. I am half-Hungarian and I am proud of my background, however I feel very Romanian and don't think it's necessary to hate anyone just because of what happened in the past. And as for gypsies, well they're mostly the reason why Romania's image across the world is so stained. They go to countries like Spain, Italy or France and beg on the streets, and sometimes steal and stuff, which makes foreigners say "aaah Romania, that gypsy country". Thus the hate towards them.

Yes the gypsies are threatened and are treated like crap but there is no question of murder - that certainly isn't taking place. It is a shame as the gypsies do give Romania a bad name, hence the reason Western European countries aren't giving the Romanians as free a time as the Polish and Czech for example. It's a difficult situation as 10% is a high amount sadly.

when Bosnia declared independence in 1992, their goal was not to became a Muslim nation, with only Muslims living there. just wanted to be independent nation, like any other. with Bosnian Christians, Muslims, Catholics living in it. but when Serbs started killing Muslims, thats when it turned into a religous war.
also not all Serbs are Christian or all Croats Catholic, but it is in the 90% and 95% Bosniaks are Muslim.

Things always become more dagerous when religion becomes involved and people start losing their sense of reality and perspective. The Serb's hatred of the Muslims only damaged any sympathy they may have been shown.

All 3 leaders when the war started are dead now

Milosevic- Serb march 11 2006
Izetbegovic- Bosniak- october 19 2003
Tudjman- Croat- december 10, 1999

Only the Bosnian Serb leaders to be found now! Karadiz and Mladic. At least they found and killed Arkan though.

Kosovo was never and independent state right? It has always been serbian territory, if this is the case, it would be a grave injustice against serbia to give independence to Kosovo...

There is hardly any Serbian influence in Kosovo as it stands anyway. Kosovo has mainly been half and half under Serbian and Ottoman control if I'm right Genci?

didn't the US bomb serbia, eventually....

What your saying is the US should intervene when YOU think its right for them to intervene? The USA should of not got into the conflict, serbia posed no threat to the US and the use of military force on serbia was uncalled for... If anything the Europeans should of done something...

The UN had a duty to protect the Bosniaks and they failed in that duty until it was too late.

Somalia did not pose a threat to the US either. Nor did Granada, or .... Panama. :lol:

By the way, I asked a question: "Why didn't the US..?" which puts your interpretation of it as "the US should intervene when YOU think its right" as odd.

I guess the terrain in Africa makes it very difficult for outsiders to intervene.

R.Federer
04-11-2007, 06:26 AM
well you do think the US should of intervened, right?

I take the fifth.

However - neither proximity, nor continent, nor historic ties have been consistent commonalities in the US's choice of where they do "peace keeping".

Iza
04-11-2007, 09:12 AM
you mean like in WWII? or like in Korea?
hey, don't misinterpret my words ;) I was referring to this case :p not to WWII. I wasn't saying the US is always bad. Just often.

But have you stopped to ask yourself why they left Romania? They are also called Romanys, you know, Romania is their homeland.
I am not totally sure of the facts, but I think the Communist government drove them into poverty and did not allow them to live in their traditional style. Then when they had been deprived of everything, they were accused of being no-goods.

While I was there, it was people representing the government and trying to attract investment to the ''new'' Romania that felt it necessary to explain that the gypsy problem would be solved and not to worry. Their attitude had the opposite effect on me, it was they themselves that made me hurry to the airport.
the communist governemt drove everyone who was not in the party into poverty, not just the gypsies. And there are two kinds of gypsies. The ones you see on the streets, begging and stuff, dirty and all, and the rich ones which drive expensive cars and have huge houses even if they are completely empty. Those were persecuted by the communists because they had a lotta gold. And the communists just stole it from them. But they also demolished houses of non-gypsies in case those houses stood in the way of their big plans of building blocks of flats. And the owners of the houses couldn't do anything but look at their life's work be destroyed without any right. So you see, the communists didn't really give a shit about anybody.

There is definitely a problem with gypsies in Romania with almost 10% of the population made up by gypsies! Despite the fact they have been in Romania for hundreds of years it is mainly their own fault they are discriminated against as they made no effort whatsoever to integrate. They were treated well whilst the country was Communist but since the country's economy declined they were used as scapegoats by many - pointing them out as parasites. Due to the high rate of poverty and disease amongst the gypsies they are always given the cold shoulder by the better classes in Romania. The right wing attitude that you came across has been born out of frustration at the lack of direction in the country and the fact that it can almost be described as a failing country - hopefully for it's sake the inclusion in the European Union has an affect sooner rather than later!

.

omg Paul that is the exact truth :yeah: how'd ya know that much :p ?

RonE
04-11-2007, 10:48 AM
It really is atrocious the way the killings went on and the world turned a blind eye. :mad:

Then again, nothing new there, the world turns a blind eye all the time :rolleyes:

Thanks for all the explanations Jerry, I admit it was always very confusing to follow these issues :wavey:

Just one question- since Ljubicic is from Banja Luka which is in Bosnia Srpaska, how come he plays for Crotia? Is he a Bosnian Croat?

scarecrows
04-11-2007, 10:57 AM
There is hardly any Serbian influence in Kosovo as it stands anyway. Kosovo has mainly been half and half under Serbian and Ottoman control if I'm right Genci?


sorry, i dont want to enter in arguements that dont have a beginning and will never end. Just stating the obvious:

1. the vast majority of people living in Kosovo are albanians (or better say Kosovars)
2. Serbians and Kosovars cannot live again in the same country after what has happened in the past decades

MissPovaFan
04-11-2007, 12:50 PM
the communist governemt drove everyone who was not in the party into poverty, not just the gypsies. And there are two kinds of gypsies. The ones you see on the streets, begging and stuff, dirty and all, and the rich ones which drive expensive cars and have huge houses even if they are completely empty. Those were persecuted by the communists because they had a lotta gold. And the communists just stole it from them. But they also demolished houses of non-gypsies in case those houses stood in the way of their big plans of building blocks of flats. And the owners of the houses couldn't do anything but look at their life's work be destroyed without any right. So you see, the communists didn't really give a shit about anybody.



omg Paul that is the exact truth :yeah: how'd ya know that much :p ?

Another of the problems in Romania is the extent of the agricultural industry with around 20% of the population still farming in the 21st century! That has to be a major negative in any country's development these days. Privatisation failed as it was not regulated enough and as a result the country still lags behind Western Europe. Ceausescu was a complete nutcase and a disgraceful man - he run the country into the ground and couldn't accept the fall of Communism, thus resulting in his apalling actions before his short exile and subsequent execution.

However during the time Romania was in this sort of state a great deal of skilled workers left the country to seek their fortune in the western world and the country is beginning to pay for this as they have a great labour shortage at the moment - another factor in the current lack of growth. The country needs a very strong leader to pull itself out of this mess!

It is quite sad really and although I never really had contact with Romanians (except through the rugby maybe) before I came to MTF, the people on here from the country are all really nice in general :)

Just one question- since Ljubicic is from Banja Luka which is in Bosnia Srpaska, how come he plays for Crotia? Is he a Bosnian Croat?

Jerry can probably answer this better than me but from what I gather Ljubicic's family became exiled in Croatia when the war broke out and he was given a chance to gain representative honours within the Croatian tennis system? As a result he ended up playing for them in Davis Cup etc. Apparently his mother is a Bosniak and his father a Croatian.

scarecrows
04-11-2007, 12:52 PM
Jerry can probably answer this better than me but from what I gather Ljubicic's family became exiled in Croatia when the war broke out and he was given a chance to gain representative honours within the Croatian tennis system? As a result he ended up playing for them in Davis Cup etc. Apparently his mother is a Bosniak and his father a Croatian.

actually Ljubicic moved to italy during the war and lived and trained there

MissPovaFan
04-11-2007, 12:56 PM
actually Ljubicic moved to italy during the war and lived and trained there

ah I see so it must have been his father's influence that drew him to play for Croatia? He was in Croatia for a year before Italy but maybe it was the fact Bosnia was still in turmoil when Ivan came to the stage that he progressed to international honours and he was therefore unable to play for them.

Jim Jones
04-11-2007, 12:58 PM
sorry, i dont want to enter in arguements that dont have a beginning and will never end. Just stating the obvious:

1. the vast majority of people living in Kosovo are albanians (or better say Kosovars)
2. Serbians and Kosovars cannot live again in the same country after what has happened in the past decades
Ok fine but then be prepared to get defacto independance like Taiwan since Russia and some EU nations like Greece will be against kosovar indpendance. The western media likes to focus on Russia as being the only one who is against kosovo getting its independance. But that's because it has its veto power. However Serbia also has allies such as Greece and I hear that Romaia also support the Serb position.

Don't forget that the northern tip of Kosovo is populated by Serbs and Serbian army controls the region. It will probably remain in Serb hands unless the Serbs and Kosovars decided to have population exchange between Kosovo and Prejevo valley. The Serbs would probably want to get rid of kosovars and kosovars would want to get rid of Serbs.

mtw
04-11-2007, 01:10 PM
One of the worst things about the attoricity was the conduct of Mladic who targetted civilians and armed forces alike :(

Was it the Dutch military peacekeepers that were useless and allowed the Serb forces into the refugee camps? Almost to the extent that they assisted them if I remember correctly!

Anyway Serbia will never be able to progress and join the European Union until Mladic and co are brought to justice.


It was real tragedy. But it was punished.
Kosovo will be Muslim and independent and very well.
And what about present war in Iraq? Tousends innocent people were killed, the life of many Iraqiis civilians is endangered daily, tousends innocent men was captured, torturedand kept in Guantanamo. What does bristish-american democracy look like in this state? Bloody terror, corruption, fear, occupation. When will be the end of this war? Will be guilty politicians punished too, as some Serbian ones.

MissPovaFan
04-11-2007, 01:11 PM
Ok fine but then be prepared to get defacto independance like Taiwan since Russia and some EU nations like Greece will be against kosovar indpendance. The western media likes to focus on Russia as being the only one who is against kosovo getting its independance. But that's because it has its veto power. However Serbia also has allies such as Greece and I hear that Romaia also support the Serb position.

Don't forget that the northern tip of Kosovo is populated by Serbs and Serbian army controls the region. It will probably remain in Serb hands unless the Serbs and Kosovars decided to have population exchange between Kosovo and Prejevo valley. The Serbs would probably want to get rid of kosovars and kosovars would want to get rid of Serbs.

Despite the UN pushing for an independent Kosovo, the Serbian government are still refusing to allow full independence stating it is their right to keep hold of the territory. In effect they obviously do not govern the territory anymore due to the presence of the UN. Encouragingly though their President Tadic has agreed the country needs to find and hand over Mladic and co.

MissPovaFan
04-11-2007, 01:16 PM
It was real tragedy. But it was punished.
Kosovo will be Muslim and independent and very well.
And what about present war in Iraq? Tousends innocent people were killed, the life of many Iraqiis civilians is endangered daily, tousends innocent men was captured, torturedand kept in Guantanamo. What does bristish-american democracy look like in this state? Bloody terror, corruption, fear, occupation. When will be the end of this war? Will be guilty politicians punished too, as some Serbian ones.

Despite the fact Milosevic was punished for orchestrating the attacks, his henchmen have still not been brought to justice. I struggle to see Serbia ever agreeing to Kosovan independence unless of course they are holding out to use it as a bargaining tool for future entry to the EU.

Yeah the allied forces have clearly made a major cock up in Iraq - they never really had a long term plan and went in all gun-ho. Typical Bush sadly. The threat of terrorism has increased since the war on Iraq and the alleged aim was the exact opposite! There is now an excuse and greater access for danger Muslim radicals.

Jim Jones
04-11-2007, 02:01 PM
It was real tragedy. But it was punished.
Kosovo will be Muslim and independent and very well.
And what about present war in Iraq? Tousends innocent people were killed, the life of many Iraqiis civilians is endangered daily, tousends innocent men was captured, torturedand kept in Guantanamo. What does bristish-american democracy look like in this state? Bloody terror, corruption, fear, occupation. When will be the end of this war? Will be guilty politicians punished too, as some Serbian ones.
If Kosovo should be Muslim then I suppose you are not against Bosnia remaining Christian since they outnumber the Muslims. Kosovo if it becomes independant will be a secular state not a muslim one. Albania itself has 30% of its population who are Christians so Albania is a state whose majority is Muslim but it is not a muslim state and Bosnia is not a Christian state.

Despite the UN pushing for an independent Kosovo, the Serbian government are still refusing to allow full independence stating it is their right to keep hold of the territory. In effect they obviously do not govern the territory anymore due to the presence of the UN. Encouragingly though their President Tadic has agreed the country needs to find and hand over Mladic and co.
Actaully it is the EU that is pushing for independance not the UN. If security council vetos any resolution for independance then there is no reason for UN to push for it. The Finnish representative is from the EU not UN. In any case EU members like Bulgaria, Romania and Greece are traditional allies of Serbs because they share cultural links. They too may be opposed to independance. I believe that relations between Greeks and Albanians are not too good. Anyway I am willing to bet my right arm that Kosovo will not be getting its independance. I thought so too last year when the western press were unanimously saying that Kosovo would become independant by end of 2006. So when is Kosovo going to become independant, wheeeeen?????

MissPovaFan
04-11-2007, 02:18 PM
If Kosovo should be Muslim then I suppose you are not against Bosnia remaining Christian since they outnumber the Muslims. Kosovo if it becomes independant will be a secular state not a muslim one. Albania itself has 30% of its population who are Christians so Albania is a state whose majority is Muslim but it is not a muslim state and Bosnia is not a Christian state.


Actaully it is the EU that is pushing for independance not the UN. If security council vetos any resolution for independance then there is no reason for UN to push for it. The Finnish representative is from the EU not UN. In any case EU members like Bulgaria, Romania and Greece are traditional allies of Serbs because they share cultural links. They too may be opposed to independance. I believe that relations between Greeks and Albanians are not too good. Anyway I am willing to bet my right arm that Kosovo will not be getting its independance. I thought so too last year when the western press were unanimously saying that Kosovo would become independant by end of 2006. So when is Kosovo going to become independant, wheeeeen?????

I totally agree it is very dangerous to start talking about countries adopting a set religion - even here in England we are not classed as a Christian state anymore. All the sides have to respect each other's beliefs and the government must promote integration to help prevent any future tensions building.

I guess so and obviously Russia, who are not particularly allied to the EU, are almost certain to veto any programme of independence for Kosovo. I don't think the three Eastern European states you pointed out (Bulgaria, Romania, Greece) would do much more than voice their concerns in fear of upsetting their fellow EU members.

I totally agree with you, an independent Kosovo will not happen for a long long time if not at all. It might even take some sort of revolution to spark any changes - something which again is very dangerous and could unstabilise the region.

El Legenda
04-11-2007, 04:19 PM
It really is atrocious the way the killings went on and the world turned a blind eye. :mad:

Then again, nothing new there, the world turns a blind eye all the time :rolleyes:

Thanks for all the explanations Jerry, I admit it was always very confusing to follow these issues :wavey:

Just one question- since Ljubicic is from Banja Luka which is in Bosnia Srpaska, how come he plays for Crotia? Is he a Bosnian Croat?Ljubicic is a Bosnian Croat, he is dad is Croat and mom Bosniak, so when the war started, since he's dad is a Croat, the family could go to Croatia.

El Legenda
04-11-2007, 04:21 PM
If Kosovo should be Muslim then I suppose you are not against Bosnia remaining Christian since they outnumber the Muslims. Kosovo if it becomes independant will be a secular state not a muslim one. Albania itself has 30% of its population who are Christians so Albania is a state whose majority is Muslim but it is not a muslim state and Bosnia is not a Christian state.
?????

that is incorrect, Christians do not outnumber Muslims in Bosnia. Not all Serbs/Croats are Chrisitans, while like 98% Bosniaks are Muslims, and they make up 48% of the country, and between the 52% Serbs/Croats atleast 10-15 are not Christian or they're athiest.

Iza
04-11-2007, 06:23 PM
If


In any case EU members like Bulgaria, Romania and Greece are traditional allies of Serbs because they share cultural links. They too may be opposed to independance. I believe that relations between Greeks and Albanians are not too good.

get real, man. we have a huge political crisis around here with the Government and Parliament in open conflict with our shit president. we've got our own shit to sort out. and unfortunately, we're deep in it. Plus, as Paul pointed out, do you thnk us and Bulgaria, the newest a.k.a the "3rd world" of the EU as we unnoficially are, would ever go against the big guys? Naaah, that won't happen. Unless we want to force our luck, which won't be the case. I know in the beginning of WWI we supported Serbia but Transylvania was under the Austro-Hungarian Empire power and whatever they did, we had to do too. And then, I feel ashamed to admit that we've always been some shitty allies. We changed sides in both WWs and that messed up our credibility really badly.

geesh can you imagine what a mess this world would be if the conflict in Kossovo would start again...with Bush's masterpiece in Irak going on too... :scared: i prefer not to think about it :scared:

Blue Heart24
04-11-2007, 06:29 PM
Ljubicic is a Bosnian Croat, he is dad is Croat and mom Bosniak, so when the war started, since he's dad was a Croat, the family could go to Croatia.

He is still alive ;)

Jim Jones
04-11-2007, 06:53 PM
that is incorrect, Christians do not outnumber Muslims in Bosnia. Not all Serbs/Croats are Chrisitans, while like 98% Bosniaks are Muslims, and they make up 48% of the country, and between the 52% Serbs/Croats atleast 10-15 are not Christian or they're athiest.

Christians outnumber Muslims in Bosnia. Check any independant source. But don't worry, Bosnia will remain a secular state.

get real, man. we have a huge political crisis around here with the Government and Parliament in open conflict with our shit president. we've got our own shit to sort out. and unfortunately, we're deep in it. Plus, as Paul pointed out, do you thnk us and Bulgaria, the newest a.k.a the "3rd world" of the EU as we unnoficially are, would ever go against the big guys? Naaah, that won't happen. Unless we want to force our luck, which won't be the case. I know in the beginning of WWI we supported Serbia but Transylvania was under the Austro-Hungarian Empire power and whatever they did, we had to do too. And then, I feel ashamed to admit that we've always been some shitty allies. We changed sides in both WWs and that messed up our credibility really badly.

geesh can you imagine what a mess this world would be if the conflict in Kossovo would start again...with Bush's masterpiece in Irak going on too... :scared: i prefer not to think about it :scared:
Who are the big guys you are talking about? You mean that the eastern nation members of EU are worth less then them? Poland decided that EU would not grant Russia most favored status. I don't see it being a follower. Also Romania and Bulgaria once in the EU have slowed down with their reforms. Yes they really are following advice of old Europe who want them to reform, aren't they? ;)

Your Romanian leader is alright from what I hear. Far better then the previous guy who should be blamed for the poor state of the country. You may be ashamed of having Serbia as your ally but I am not. Perhaps you should have been part of the ottoman culture or Protestant/Catholic instead of Orthodox culture. Can't say you like your culture very much, eh?

El Legenda
04-11-2007, 08:12 PM
He is still alive ;)

:lol: of course, and he plays a little tennis himself. some kind of old people tour in europe :p

deeps
04-11-2007, 08:27 PM
I read first few pages on this thread and I don't want to read it anymore because there is only one side of story here.

Here are some facts:

1. In ex-Yugoslavia durring 1990's happend civil war

2. Slovenia broke of from Yugoslavia by killing 18, 19 yers old kids who served army and didn't want to shoot in their one people (they belived that Slovenians are their one people).

3. When Croatia wanted to broke of from Yugoslavia Serbs(about 20% in Croatia) afraid that it will happend the same thing that happend 50 years earlyer when Nazi state of Croatia killed over 500 000 Serbs because they wanted nationaly clean country.And ofcourse they rebbeld. In the end that happend because today in Croatia you only have 2-3 percents of Serbs (mainly old people). My own familly lost everything in Croatia, but not durring the war yet after when Croatian army burned many villages and towns so that people don't have where to return.

4. When Bosnia wanted to broke of they could do that only if all three nations agree about that (by constution). Serbs didnt't want to that, but Muslim and Croatians declared independence anyway. Serbs in Bosnia then wanted to brake away from muslims and Croatians by forming their own state but they didn't accepted and the civil war started.

5. Srebrenica is something that is very regretable. In Bosnia you have many areas wher some nations lives in great mayority surounded by other nations.
In Srebrenica mayority of population where muslims, and in surounding villages where Serbs. UN declared Srebrenice a safety zone and send the Dutchs there. Muslims used that safety zone and atacked Serbians villages around Srebrenica. They killed many people (2000-3000 people) durring 3 years and Duchs didn't do anything to stop that. My father with his unit one one Christmas morning found about 20 naked Serbian people crucifaid on threes.
They were killed bu muslim army led by Naser Oric who served for that crime only couple of years. In the end Serbs revenged in a brutal way unfortunelly, but that was not genocide because you can't find similar thing in other areas of Bosnia). Also number of killed is debatable, because muslims put many people who was killed in difrent time or even in difrent place on the list of those who were executed in july 1995. That is why they can't find 8000 bodies.

6.It seams that because of Srebrenica only ones who commited war crimes were Serbs , and muslims and Croatians are practicly angels. Body of my uncle and his five friends(all without their heads) was found 10 years after war. No one investigates crimes against Serbs. They were found after one of my relative paid 1000 euros to local muslim to show him were they were behead and buried. No one was investigated over that, not even that muslim who showed were they are (he witnesed killings)

etc.

Iza
04-11-2007, 08:35 PM
Christians outnumber Muslims in Bosnia. Check any independant source. But don't worry, Bosnia will remain a secular state.


Who are the big guys you are talking about? You mean that the eastern nation members of EU are worth less then them? Poland decided that EU would not grant Russia most favored status. I don't see it being a follower. Also Romania and Bulgaria once in the EU have slowed down with their reforms. Yes they really are following advice of old Europe who want them to reform, aren't they? ;)

Your Romanian leader is alright from what I hear. Far better then the previous guy who should be blamed for the poor state of the country. You may be ashamed of having Serbia as your ally but I am not. Perhaps you should have been part of the ottoman culture or Protestant/Catholic instead of Orthodox culture. Can't say you like your culture very much, eh?

the reforms especially in agriculture will take loads of years to implement and their speed is very slow :tape: so the EU must wait :p but I am sure that we'd not yet dare to do more than express opinion in external policy matters. and Poland is huge :lol: Romania is quite a bit smaller :(

Basescu is anything but alrite. He is the worst post-ceausescu era president but unfortunately he is still quite popular but I am sure his popularity will decrease soon. So he is not far better.
I am not ashamed of having Serbia as an ally, where did you get that from? The only thing I feel ashamed about is the fact that we switched sides. That makes the others doubt you and that is what happened. If we entered the war with the Germans, that's how we should've come out, the damage would've been pretty much the same, or even less. And about my culture, I am bi-cultural as my dad is of Hungraian origins and my mum is 100% Romanian. And I am Catholic yes. So I am part of that culture, not the Orthodox one. But I don't think I am unpatriotic just because I don't agree with some parts in our history and don't like what is happening in politics today. :)

oh, and thx for the rep :)

Iza
04-11-2007, 08:38 PM
I read first few pages on this thread and I don't want to read it anymore because there is only one side of story here.

Here are some facts:

1. In ex-Yugoslavia durring 1990's happend civil war

2. Slovenia broke of from Yugoslavia by killing 18, 19 yers old kids who served army and didn't want to shoot in their one people (they belived that Slovenians are their one people).

3. When Croatia wanted to broke of from Yugoslavia Serbs(about 20% in Croatia) afraid that it will happend the same thing that happend 50 years earlyer when Nazi state of Croatia killed over 500 000 Serbs because they wanted nationaly clean country.And ofcourse they rebbeld. In the end that happend because today in Croatia you only have 2-3 percents of Serbs (mainly old people). My own familly lost everything in Croatia, but not durring the war yet after when Croatian army burned many villages and towns so that people don't have where to return.

4. When Bosnia wanted to broke of they could do that only if all three nations agree about that (by constution). Serbs didnt't want to that, but Muslim and Croatians declared independence anyway. Serbs in Bosnia then wanted to brake away from muslims and Croatians by forming their own state but they didn't accepted and the civil war started.

5. Srebrenica is something that is very regretable. In Bosnia you have many areas wher some nations lives in great mayority surounded by other nations.
In Srebrenica mayority of population where muslims, and in surounding villages where Serbs. UN declared Srebrenice a safety zone and send the Dutchs there. Muslims used that safety zone and atacked Serbians villages around Srebrenica. They killed many people (2000-3000 people) durring 3 years and Duchs didn't do anything to stop that. My father with his unit one one Christmas morning found about 20 naked Serbian people crucifaid on threes.
They were killed bu muslim army led by Naser Oric who served for that crime only couple of years. In the end Serbs revenged in a brutal way unfortunelly, but that was not genocide because you can't find similar thing in other areas of Bosnia). Also number of killed is debatable, because muslims put many people who was killed in difrent time or even in difrent place on the list of those who were executed in july 1995. That is why they can't find 8000 bodies.

6.It seams that because of Srebrenica only ones who commited war crimes were Serbs , and muslims and Croatians are practicly angels. Body of my uncle and his five friends(all without their heads) was found 10 years after war. No one investigates crimes against Serbs. They were found after one of my relative paid 1000 euros to local muslim to show him were they were behead and buried. No one was investigated over that, not even that muslim who showed were they are (he witnesed killings)

etc.

thx for teling the other side too. One thing is for sure: too many innocent people died when that could've been avoided.

El Legenda
04-11-2007, 09:07 PM
5. Srebrenica is something that is very regretable. In Bosnia you have many areas wher some nations lives in great mayority surounded by other nations.
In Srebrenica mayority of population where muslims, and in surounding villages where Serbs. UN declared Srebrenice a safety zone and send the Dutchs there. Muslims used that safety zone and atacked Serbians villages around Srebrenica. They killed many people (2000-3000 people) durring 3 years and Duchs didn't do anything to stop that. My father with his unit one one Christmas morning found about 20 naked Serbian people crucifaid on threes.
They were killed bu muslim army led by Naser Oric who served for that crime only couple of years. In the end Serbs revenged in a brutal way unfortunelly, but that was not genocide because you can't find similar thing in other areas of Bosnia). Also number of killed is debatable, because muslims put many people who was killed in difrent time or even in difrent place on the list of those who were executed in july 1995. That is why they can't find 8000 bodies.
etc.
Serbrenica was genocide, even Republica Srpska admitted that, and their Army Leader Mladic admitted it

Republika Srpska's report and official apology

In 2004, the international community's High Representative Paddy Ashdown had the Government of Republika Srpska form a committee to investigate the events. The committee released a report in October 2004 with 8,731 confirmed names of missing and dead persons from Srebrenica: 7,793 between 10 July and 19 July 1995 and further 938 people afterwards.
Dragan Čavić, the president of Republika Srpska, acknowledged in a televised address that Serb forces killed several thousand civilians in violation of the international law, and asserted that Srebrenica was a dark chapter in Serb history.

On November 10, 2004, the government of Republika Srpska issued an official apology. The statement came after government review of the Srebrenica committee's report. "The report makes it clear that enormous crimes were committed in the area of Srebrenica in July 1995. The Bosnian Serb Government shares the pain of the families of the Srebrenica victims, is truly sorry and apologizes for the tragedy." the Bosnian Serb government said
The two highest ranking Bosnian Serb politicians, Radovan Karadžić and Momčilo Krajišnik, were warned by Bosnian Serb military commander General Ratko Mladić, also indicted on genocide charges, that their plans could not be committed without committing genocide.

People are not little stones, or keys in someone's pocket, that can be moved from one place to another just like that... Therefore, we cannot precisely arrange for only Serbs to stay in one part of the country while removing others painlessly. I do not know how Mr Krajišnik and Mr Karadžić will explain that to the world. That is genocide, said Mladić



Naser Oric was aquitted of most charges, he was found guilty of not stopping the killing of 5 Serbs, under his command. he is currenly a free man and not hiding like Mladic.

El Legenda
04-11-2007, 09:10 PM
6.It seams that because of Srebrenica only ones who commited war crimes were Serbs , and muslims and Croatians are practicly angels. Body of my uncle and his five friends(all without their heads) was found 10 years after war. No one investigates crimes against Serbs. They were found after one of my relative paid 1000 euros to local muslim to show him were they were behead and buried. No one was investigated over that, not even that muslim who showed were they are (he witnesed killings)

etc.
but serbs were not to be outdone
Serbs were sticking babies on rods and putting them over a fire and cooking them.

Jim Jones
04-11-2007, 10:41 PM
but serbs were not to be outdone
Serbs were sticking babies on rods and putting them over a fire and cooking them.

What you are saying is stupid don't you think? Mate if you are going to continue like this you will lose all credibility here. Deeps is giving better arguments than you. In addition you were wrong when you said that Bosnia had a majority muslim population. Maybe you desire otherwise or you are looking at uncredible sources. My sources are UN and CIA world factbook which are quite credible. By the way Hazim Delić is a Bosniak who was sentenced for genocide and will spent many years in jail. Like Deeps said there was no good side and bad side. Serbs did a lot of damage but some damage was also done by Bosniaks and Croats. Buddyholly wass right in wondering why you created this thread. There absolutely no reason for this except perrhaps for yout o vent your anti Serb bias. I cna thell you that the Croats love/hate the Bosniaks as mucha s the Serbs. So you fail in trying to imply that Serbs are isolate din the area and politically. Serbia si given the stick for not cooperating about Mladic but then so is Bosnia for not cooperating on Karadciz. Bosnia is also warily looked upon for ties to mujahedin. So please stop your anti Serb bs. You are all slavs.

El Legenda
04-11-2007, 11:31 PM
What you are saying is stupid don't you think? Mate if you are going to continue like this you will lose all credibility here. Deeps is giving better arguments than you. In addition you were wrong when you said that Bosnia had a majority muslim population. Maybe you desire otherwise or you are looking at uncredible sources. My sources are UN and CIA world factbook which are quite credible. By the way Hazim Delić is a Bosniak who was sentenced for genocide and will spent many years in jail. Like Deeps said there was no good side and bad side. Serbs did a lot of damage but some damage was also done by Bosniaks and Croats. Buddyholly wass right in wondering why you created this thread. There absolutely no reason for this except perrhaps for yout o vent your anti Serb bias. I cna thell you that the Croats love/hate the Bosniaks as mucha s the Serbs. So you fail in trying to imply that Serbs are isolate din the area and politically. Serbia si given the stick for not cooperating about Mladic but then so is Bosnia for not cooperating on Karadciz. Bosnia is also warily looked upon for ties to mujahedin. So please stop your anti Serb bs. You are all slavs.

majority of Bosnia is muslim 40% followed by orthodox 30% a and Catholics 15%...you cant just throw those two together.
you have no room to talk, you didnt live there when this was going on, and Karadciz is Serbian responsibility.
about 6000 Arabs came to flight with the Bosniaks, in response to the Greeks coming and flighting with the Serbs

and yes this thread did go off topic a little, which was to inform people of the genocided committed by the Serbs forces in Srebrenica.

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 12:40 AM
get real, man. we have a huge political crisis around here with the Government and Parliament in open conflict with our shit president. we've got our own shit to sort out. and unfortunately, we're deep in it. Plus, as Paul pointed out, do you thnk us and Bulgaria, the newest a.k.a the "3rd world" of the EU as we unnoficially are, would ever go against the big guys? Naaah, that won't happen. Unless we want to force our luck, which won't be the case. I know in the beginning of WWI we supported Serbia but Transylvania was under the Austro-Hungarian Empire power and whatever they did, we had to do too. And then, I feel ashamed to admit that we've always been some shitty allies. We changed sides in both WWs and that messed up our credibility really badly.

geesh can you imagine what a mess this world would be if the conflict in Kossovo would start again...with Bush's masterpiece in Irak going on too... :scared: i prefer not to think about it :scared:

I hear things have got so bad they are importing workers from China? :eek:

But really speaking now your people are able to move freely within the European Union I see no incentive for the Romanian people to remain in the country. I know a number of Romanians who can speak Italian and Spanish, whom I am sure are onyl biding their time before leaving for the better opportunities.

Romania and Serbia are still very much allied though as shown by the recent oil pipeline deal that heavily involves the two. There are only three European countries that would *actively* promote an independent Kosovo though and they are Macedonia; Montenegro; and Albania. Thankfully they are not voicing a strong opinion yet.

Who are the big guys you are talking about? You mean that the eastern nation members of EU are worth less then them? Poland decided that EU would not grant Russia most favored status. I don't see it being a follower. Also Romania and Bulgaria once in the EU have slowed down with their reforms. Yes they really are following advice of old Europe who want them to reform, aren't they? ;)

Your Romanian leader is alright from what I hear. Far better then the previous guy who should be blamed for the poor state of the country. You may be ashamed of having Serbia as your ally but I am not. Perhaps you should have been part of the ottoman culture or Protestant/Catholic instead of Orthodox culture. Can't say you like your culture very much, eh?

If Romania continue to slow down their reforms they will pay as the rest of the EU will impose embargos and in effect limit their membership. If Romania do not keep their side of the Accession Treaty they will most certainly suffer.

Romanians have a lot to thank Nazi Germany for as it was them who ended the early 20th century Russian occupation of a large chunk of the country.

To be fair to Romania they were one of the few Communist countries that actually stood up to the Soviet Union and showed determination to end their dependence on them. Ceausescu obviously messed things up with his crazy police state which threatened to take Romania back to the dark days of Post-WW2. The Romanian culture issue is a tough one though as control over the country has been in the hands of so many different powers through the last 500 years!



2. Slovenia broke of from Yugoslavia by killing 18, 19 yers old kids who served army and didn't want to shoot in their one people (they belived that Slovenians are their one people).

3. When Croatia wanted to broke of from Yugoslavia Serbs(about 20% in Croatia) afraid that it will happend the same thing that happend 50 years earlyer when Nazi state of Croatia killed over 500 000 Serbs because they wanted nationaly clean country.And ofcourse they rebbeld. In the end that happend because today in Croatia you only have 2-3 percents of Serbs (mainly old people). My own familly lost everything in Croatia, but not durring the war yet after when Croatian army burned many villages and towns so that people don't have where to return.

There were apparently only 39 deaths amongst the Serbian forces during the small war against Slovenia.

Point 3 is difficult to argue as you are totally correct that the Croatian State, sponsored of course by Nazi Germany, were murdering hundreds of thousands of Serbs. However that is no excuse for the happenings of the 1990s as times had moved on since WW2.

Basescu is anything but alrite. He is the worst post-ceausescu era president but unfortunately he is still quite popular but I am sure his popularity will decrease soon. So he is not far better.
I am not ashamed of having Serbia as an ally, where did you get that from? The only thing I feel ashamed about is the fact that we switched sides. That makes the others doubt you and that is what happened. If we entered the war with the Germans, that's how we should've come out, the damage would've been pretty much the same, or even less. And about my culture, I am bi-cultural as my dad is of Hungraian origins and my mum is 100% Romanian. And I am Catholic yes. So I am part of that culture, not the Orthodox one. But I don't think I am unpatriotic just because I don't agree with some parts in our history and don't like what is happening in politics today. :)

oh, and thx for the rep :)

Yes Romania certainly lost a great deal of respect and credibility after WW2 with the allied forces not even recognising their efforts against Nazi Germany post-1944. The Romanian monarchy who orchestrated the coup that led to the switch of sides soon lost it's power though after WW2 though as the Soviets and Bulgarians. Why Romania decided to switch sides one will never know after the apalling way they were treated by the Soviet Union, in the end leading to the destruction of the monarchy.

but serbs were not to be outdone
Serbs were sticking babies on rods and putting them over a fire and cooking them.

I thought the baby deaths were caused by Serb snipers? I remember seeing a few images on the tv of a couple of babies shot dead on a bus.

El Legenda
04-12-2007, 12:43 AM
I thought the baby deaths were caused by Serb snipers? I remember seeing a few images on the tv of a couple of babies shot dead on a bus.

there are some many stories, a lot of people saw a lot of things.

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 12:46 AM
there are some many stories, a lot of people saw a lot of things.

I agree sometimes it is difficult to separate facts from propaganda during conflicts, but there is certainly no propaganda involved in large scale, highly publicised events such as Srebrenica.

El Legenda
04-12-2007, 12:59 AM
some good news

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/11/world/europe/11serbia.html?_r=2&ref=world&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

MissPovaFan
04-12-2007, 01:18 AM
some good news

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/11/world/europe/11serbia.html?_r=2&ref=world&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

That is definitely an encouraging sign, moreso that it was decided in a Serbian law court. It will open everyone's eyes in Serbia and will put an end to those who deny the happenings. I wonder what the chances of Mladic being tried by a Serbian court are!

Jim Jones
04-12-2007, 01:20 AM
majority of Bosnia is muslim 40% followed by orthodox 30% a and Catholics 15%...you cant just throw those two together.
you have no room to talk, you didnt live there when this was going on, and Karadciz is Serbian responsibility.
about 6000 Arabs came to flight with the Bosniaks, in response to the Greeks coming and flighting with the Serbs

and yes this thread did go off topic a little, which was to inform people of the genocided committed by the Serbs forces in Srebrenica.

This will be my last response. I don't liekl to repeat my self hoarse. In any case I prefer to sit back and enjoy the posts ;)
Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants are Christians just like Sunnis and shiites are Muslims. So 30+15=45 which is more then Muslim percentage.

El Legenda
04-12-2007, 01:30 AM
This will be my last response. I don't liekl to repeat my self hoarse. In any case I prefer to sit back and enjoy the posts ;)
Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants are Christians just like Sunnis and shiites are Muslims. So 30+15=45 which is more then Muslim percentage.

i understand that, but in this case the 40%/ Muslims and 15%/ Catholics were the ones that agreed with each other, not the Orthodox and Catholics
so if the 2 of 3 major ethnic groups want a independant state and 68% of the population, that should have been done, which was and a war was not necessary.

Iza
04-12-2007, 08:39 AM
and yes this thread did go off topic a little, which was to inform people of the genocided committed by the Serbs forces in Srebrenica.

sorry :angel: :lol:

buddyholly
04-12-2007, 02:07 PM
majority of Bosnia is muslim 40% followed by orthodox 30% a and Catholics 15%...you cant just throw those two together.


Sorry, but 40% is not a majority. You need more than 50% for that. You are talking of a Muslim plurality.

El Legenda
04-12-2007, 05:38 PM
Sorry, but 40% is not a majority. You need more than 50% for that. You are talking of a Muslim plurality.

i dont know why Jim Jones was even bringing that up about the majority of religion, when that was not even in question, since 68% of country wanted independance, which is well over the majority.

Jim Jones
04-12-2007, 07:02 PM
i dont know why Jim Jones was even bringing that up about the majority of religion, when that was not even in question, since 68% of country wanted independance, which is well over the majority.

I agree that Bosnia wanted independance, I was not disputing that. Even if Serbs did not boycott the vote the nation would have declared its independance. What I was saying is that bosnia is not a muslim nation or that the majority of its citizens are muslims. As buddyholly said, Bosniaks are a plurality. I also said that Bosnia should remain as it is with 3 distinct regions, Croat, Bosniak and Serb.

zicofirol
04-13-2007, 02:53 AM
try to learn more

seems like it never was, or it cant be determined if it was, it certianly was never considered an independent state in ancient times(the territory itself) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kosovo

El Legenda
04-13-2007, 03:18 AM
i think the quote in my sig pretty much says it all about Bosnia

deeps
04-13-2007, 09:03 AM
i think the quote in my sig pretty much says it all about Bosnia

"Bosnia is a complicated country: three religions, three nations and those "others". Nationalism is strong in all three nations; in two of them there are a lot of racism, chauvinism, separatism; and now we are supposed to make a state out of that." Alija Izetbegovic

So the president wannabe who separated from Yugoslavia (by breaking Bosnias constitution in which decision about separation should be made with approvall of all three nations, and not only two or mayority) is accusing other nations that they are separatist. Plus, he calls that other nations racists and chauvinists, and wonders how to make state out of that. Serbs and Croats would be happy to join Serbia and Croatia, so why he didn't let them to go when he thinks about them in that way. Instead he throws his country in bloody war. In addition, to show who is racist and chauvinists he imports muslim terorists from middle east who will be much more famous in years to come when they will be shown on TV how they are beheading people in Avganistan or Iraq, but when they were doing the same thing in Bosnia and Kosovo later, they were called liberation army from the Westtern countries.

Jim Jones
04-13-2007, 12:34 PM
i think the quote in my sig pretty much says it all about Bosnia
If you want support for your case you should bring about good arguments. You said that Croats and Muslims get along well yet you quote Izebegovic who implies that 2 out of 3 regions of Bosnia are racist unless of course he was alluding to the Bosniaks. ;)

I can tell that you want Bosnia to be controlled solely by the Bosniaks. Only an idiot would not see that. Bosnia will remain as it is for better or worse and Kosovo will officially remain part of Serbia. One final comment, the Croats on this board in general have moved on and have made peace witht the Serbs here. Why can't you do the same too? Not just with the Serbs but also with the Croats since you quoted your hypocritical leader. My hunch is you are only cozing up to the Croats to show that the Serbs are isolated but I feel that you despise them as much as the Serbs.

El Legenda
04-13-2007, 11:53 PM
If you want support for your case you should bring about good arguments. You said that Croats and Muslims get along well yet you quote Izebegovic who implies that 2 out of 3 regions of Bosnia are racist unless of course he was alluding to the Bosniaks. ;) he said that long time ago during the war.

I can tell that you want Bosnia to be controlled solely by the Bosniaks. Only an idiot would not see that. Bosnia will remain as it is for better or worse and Kosovo will officially remain part of Serbia. One final comment, the Croats on this board in general have moved on and have made peace witht the Serbs here. Why can't you do the same too? Not just with the Serbs but also with the Croats since you quoted your hypocritical leader. My hunch is you are only cozing up to the Croats to show that the Serbs are isolated but I feel that you despise them as much as the Serbs.
i get along just fine with the Serbs
and all the Croats love me :) (one of my parents is a Croat, i had a Croatian passport, until about a 2month go, when i got a U.S. passport, i had to get rid of the Bosnian and Croatian )

you think Croats have made peace with the Serbs? did you not see what happend at Aussie Open this year? :lol: