Lafuria's Philosophy Threads: Must things have a cause? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Lafuria's Philosophy Threads: Must things have a cause?

Pfloyd
04-03-2007, 09:47 PM
Hi ya'll!

It's been a while since I've posted here anything significant. I've been busy , but I'm back now.

I feel its time for another one of these philosophy threads.

Today in class, amid a very interesting conversation regarding a book we are required to read, a question popped into my mind:

Can emotions, events or ideas spring up from nothing at all? If not, can minor events lead to revolutionary things? Could it well be that all of a sudden, with no direct connection to any previosu event, we all of a sudden have an idea, or feel an emotion towards another person?

Although I am by no means certain of the asnwer for this question, I will argue for the more complicated side of this question. Yes, I do believe in random quirks in life that can lead to people getting ideas or feeling emotions towards others for no reason. I wil go further and argue that even major international and universal events can spring up from nothing.

But before I elaborate, I want to hear MTF's opinion. So, what do YOU think?

zicofirol
04-03-2007, 09:59 PM
Go to the arseclown voting thread and vote for me...

"Can emotions, events or ideas spring up from nothing at all? If not, can minor events lead to revolutionary things? Could it well be that all of a sudden, with no direct connection to any previosu event, we all of a sudden have an idea, or feel an emotion towards another person?"

Not sure what you mean here, do you mean reaction to a human action or though, I mean every idea comes from curiosity and the curiosity is a reaction to an event, so what do you mean?

Pfloyd
04-03-2007, 10:09 PM
What I mean is can someone come up with an idea, or an emotion for something out of the blue?

Example: you are walking in a street and all of a sudden an idea pops into your head, or an emotion out of nothing. Can no direct event lead to something?

If yes, can this extend to international events?

I can give you a clue: The big bang happened out of nothing. There is no presumed trigger that caused it to happen and create life.

Does this extend to other things?

Byrd
04-03-2007, 11:43 PM
Its spontaneous, stuff appearing from nowhere into your mind maybe due to triggers such as a memory. Try reading up on the spontaneous order.

zicofirol
04-04-2007, 02:32 AM
What I mean is can someone come up with an idea, or an emotion for something out of the blue?

Example: you are walking in a street and all of a sudden an idea pops into your head, or an emotion out of nothing. Can no direct event lead to something?

If yes, can this extend to international events?

I can give you a clue: The big bang happened out of nothing. There is no presumed trigger that caused it to happen and create life.

Does this extend to other things?

Idea yes, it can just pop up, emotion I dont think so, it has to be a reaction to something...

And the big bang was actually a direct reactions, it just didnt happen out of the blue...

JBdV
04-04-2007, 07:49 AM
And the big bang was actually a direct reactions, it just didnt happen out of the blue...

The genius just keeps oozing out of you doesn't it? :worship:

zicofirol
04-04-2007, 01:44 PM
The genius just keeps oozing out of you doesn't it? :worship:

:retard: :retard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang,

lol, what is your explanation then, haha...

Pfloyd
04-04-2007, 01:46 PM
There may be a procees that lead up to the Big Bang, but where these things came from and how, is still a mystery...

At some point however, IF the Big Bang theory is correct, something came out of nothing.

Sofonda Cox
04-04-2007, 01:48 PM
There may be a procees that lead up to the Big Bang, but where these things came from and how, is still a mystery...

At some point however, IF the Big Bang theory is correct, something came out of nothing.

something can't come from nothing - read something on the laws of physics. dumbass :retard:

jazar
04-04-2007, 01:55 PM
something can't come from nothing - read something on the laws of physics. dumbass :retard:

speaking of physics, i actually managed to create energy 2 weeks ago, its a very interesting and improbable story

Sofonda Cox
04-04-2007, 01:57 PM
speaking of physics, i actually managed to create energy 2 weeks ago, its a very interesting and improbable story

cool! i created some this morning actually - stank up the whole house. I had no idea there was that much gas inside me

jazar
04-04-2007, 02:00 PM
cool! i created some this morning actually - stank up the whole house. I had no idea there was that much gas inside me

i created a different kinfd of energy. i used a capacitor got an efficiency of 2000% for it

JBdV
04-04-2007, 06:35 PM
:retard: :retard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang,

lol, what is your explanation then, haha...

The big bang was the creation of space and time, there was nothing there before. It's meaningless to talk of some "cause" because how can there be anything when there's no space or time :retard:
And anyone who's studied some quantum physics will know that many phenomena do occur spontaneously without cause

jazar
04-04-2007, 06:45 PM
The big bang was the creation of space and time, there was nothing there before. It's meaningless to talk of some "cause" because how can there be anything when there's no space or time :retard:
And anyone who's studied some quantum physics will know that many phenomena do occur spontaneously without cause

i've studied quantum physics. there is soo much evidence for the big bang, such as background radiation, etc.

its also a bit sad to thik of everything as deterministic.

zicofirol
04-04-2007, 06:49 PM
The big bang was the creation of space and time, there was nothing there before. It's meaningless to talk of some "cause" because how can there be anything when there's no space or time :retard:
And anyone who's studied some quantum physics will know that many phenomena do occur spontaneously without cause

the explosion was a reaction, read the theory...

JBdV
04-04-2007, 06:49 PM
i've studied quantum physics. there is soo much evidence for the big bang, such as background radiation, etc.

its also a bit sad to thik of everything as deterministic.

Everything isn't deterministic, at the quantum level things are governed by probability.

Sofonda Cox
04-04-2007, 06:50 PM
Everything isn't deterministic, at the quantum level things are governed by probability.

:speakles: :spit: i'll take your word for it

jazar
04-04-2007, 06:52 PM
Everything isn't deterministic, at the quantum level things are governed by probability.

i wasnt saying everything is deterministic, i was saying that if people think everything is deterministic then they are very sad

Sparko1030
04-04-2007, 07:00 PM
This is what always crack me up :lol: . When arguing agianst the exsistence of a god, non-believers always bring up the subject of proof. The thought of a god is incomprehensible but the idea that all that is in the universe and earth came from nothing is quite acceptable for them....forget about arguing for a god, such thinking goes against the laws of science.(look up the laws of thermodynamics) :shrug: -the old song "Nothing from nothing leaves nothing"...comes to mind. The notion of spontaneous generation has long been discarded by modern science and yet that the universe could come from nothing is embraced by forward thinking aethiests. It all comes down to which idea with no proof you want to believe . There is no proof of a god and no proof that the big bang came from nothing. ;) Both require a leap of faith. :)

jazar
04-04-2007, 07:02 PM
This is what always crack me up :lol: . When arguing agianst the exsistence of a god, non-believers always bring up the subject of proof. The thought of a god is incomprehensible but the idea that all that is in the universe and earth came from nothing is quite acceptable for them....forget about arguing for a god, such thinking goes against the laws of science.(look up the laws of thermodynamics) :shrug: -the old song "Nothing from nothing leaves nothing"...comes to mind. The notion of spontaneous generation has long been discarded by modern science and yet that the universe could come from nothing is embraced by forward thinking aethiests. It all comes down to which idea with no proof you want to believe . There is no proof of a god and no proof that the big bang came from nothing. ;) Both require a leap of faith. :)

there is plenty of evidence that the big bang occured and plenty of experiments have taken place where scientists have simulated events such as the big bang

JBdV
04-04-2007, 07:07 PM
This is what always crack me up :lol: . When arguing agianst the exsistence of a god, non-believers always bring up the subject of proof. The thought of a god is incomprehensible but the idea that all that is in the universe and earth came from nothing is quite acceptable for them....forget about arguing for a god, such thinking goes against the laws of science.(look up the laws of thermodynamics) :shrug: -the old song "Nothing from nothing leaves nothing"...comes to mind. The notion of spontaneous generation has long been discarded by modern science and yet that the universe could come from nothing is embraced by forward thinking aethiests. It all comes down to which idea with no proof you want to believe . There is no proof of a god and no proof that the big bang came from nothing. ;) Both require a leap of faith. :)

Again that's 19th century physics, quantum theory was then developed and consequently showed that things can come from nothing, as strange as it sounds.

Sparko1030
04-04-2007, 07:11 PM
there is plenty of evidence that the big bang occured and plenty of experiments have taken place where scientists have simulated events such as the big bang

I'm not arguing the big bang itself didn't happen. I'm saying, if you don't believe in a god, then it happened out of nothing-which doesn't go along with the laws of science that we accept today. :shrug:

jazar
04-04-2007, 07:12 PM
I'm not arguing the big bang itself didn't happen. I'm saying, if you don't believe in a god, then it happened out of nothing-which doesn't go along with the laws of science that we accept today. :shrug:

i dont believe in god and i study physics. i've said it in previous posts and so has JBdV, there have been many experiments where scientists have created something out of nothing

Sparko1030
04-04-2007, 07:14 PM
Again that's 19th century physics, quantum theory was then developed and consequently showed that things can come from nothing, as strange as it sounds.

Its been quite awhile since my college science days, but does that mean we have to throw out all those laws? Is it possible to then produce something from nothing and if so what?

Sparko1030
04-04-2007, 07:18 PM
i dont believe in god and i study physics. i've said it in previous posts and so has JBdV, there have been many experiments where scientists have created something out of nothing


Do you believe than, all that is in the universe ultimately came from nothing?

jazar
04-04-2007, 07:19 PM
Do you believe than, all that is in the universe ultimately came from nothing?

yes. the evidence for the big bang is too great to ignore

JBdV
04-04-2007, 07:20 PM
Its been quite awhile since my college science days, but does that mean we have to throw out all those laws? Is it possible to then produce something from nothing and if so what?

The laws of thermodynamics basically state conservation of energy, energy cannot be created nor destroyed. This still applies in quantum physics, what I mean is events do randomly occur without any observable causality.

Sparko1030
04-04-2007, 07:24 PM
yes. the evidence for the big bang is too great to ignore

So there was nothing, not even random energy, and the big bang happened? I do believe the big bang happened, its just that I also believe it was by the "hand" of God and not a completley random event coming from nothing.

Sparko1030
04-04-2007, 07:27 PM
The laws of thermodynamics basically state conservation of energy, energy cannot be created nor destroyed. This still applies in quantum physics, what I mean is events do randomly occur without any observable causality.

So forgive, as stated my physics knowlege is rusty and out of date, but then there had to be something to spur the big bang out there. If not a god, then at least the exsitnece of sub atomic particles.

JBdV
04-04-2007, 07:46 PM
So forgive, as stated my physics knowlege is rusty and out of date, but then there had to be something to spur the big bang out there. If not a god, then at least the exsitnece of sub atomic particles.

Like I already said, the theory shows the big bang was the start of space-time, how could there have been particles when there was no space or time? Also it's wrong to think of it as an explosion for the same reason. If there's no time before the big bang, how can there be a before? There are some interesting though very speculative theories about this though, but it's meaningless to talk about before the big bang until physicists come up with a better model.

zicofirol
04-04-2007, 08:31 PM
Like I already said, the theory shows the big bang was the start of space-time, how could there have been particles when there was no space or time? Also it's wrong to think of it as an explosion for the same reason. If there's no time before the big bang, how can there be a before? There are some interesting though very speculative theories about this though, but it's meaningless to talk about before the big bang until physicists come up with a better model.

In physical cosmology, the Big Bang is the scientific theory that the universe emerged from a tremendously dense and hot state about 13.7 billion years ago. The theory is based on the observations indicating the expansion of space in accord with the Robertson-Walker model of general relativity, as indicated by the Hubble redshift of distant galaxies taken together with the cosmological principle.

Extrapolated into the past, these observations show that the universe has expanded from a state in which all the matter and energy in the universe was at an immense temperature and density. Physicists do not widely agree on what happened before this, although general relativity predicts a gravitational singularity.

While the Big Bang model is well established in cosmology, it is likely to be refined in the future. Little is known about the earliest universe, when inflation is hypothesized to have occurred. There may also be parts of the universe well beyond what can be observed in principle. In the case of inflation this is required: exponential expansion has pushed large regions of space beyond our observable horizon. It may be possible to deduce what happened when physics at very high energy scales is better understood. Speculations about this often involve theories of quantum gravitation.

Some proposals are:

* models including the Hartle-Hawking boundary condition in which the whole of space-time is finite;
* brane cosmology models, including brane inflation, in which inflation is due to the movement of branes in string theory; the pre-big bang model; the ekpyrotic model, in which the Big Bang is the result of a collision between branes; and the cyclic model, a variant of the ekpyrotic model in which collisions occur periodically.
* chaotic inflation, in which inflation starts from random initial conditions for the universe.

Some of these scenarios are qualitatively compatible with one another. Each entails untested hypotheses.

If matter and energy where packed in and suddenly exploded, then that matter and energy did exist before the black hole, it wasnt created in the explosion...

JBdV
04-04-2007, 10:33 PM
Yes it was...I've said it before, according to the theory the big bang was the creation of SPACE and TIME. Explain to me how there can be matter without space or time?

zicofirol
04-05-2007, 12:36 AM
Yes it was...I've said it before, according to the theory the big bang was the creation of SPACE and TIME. Explain to me how there can be matter without space or time?

but if all energy and matter was pakced in and then exploded forming the universe then there was something before the big bang... its like saying a black hole has nothing in it just because it sucks in and destroys everything it sucks in...

Also there are new theories that there are other a parallel universes, or that there is a parallel universe contracting while ours is expanding etc. These are just theories but there is alot of scientist out their determining(or trying) what was happening before the big bang..

Washa Koroleva
04-17-2007, 01:29 AM
bump

Pfloyd
04-17-2007, 02:05 PM
What do you think Olga?

Washa Koroleva
04-17-2007, 03:39 PM
I didn't read it yet. :lol:
You should make those threads more frequently, as soon as you see the prior on page 2.

Washa Koroleva
04-17-2007, 03:42 PM
First of all, I believe everything but the universe must have a cause. I'm just gonna think about how to explain it.

Washa Koroleva
04-17-2007, 04:00 PM
something can't come from nothing - read something on the laws of physics. dumbass :retard:

"According to the Big Bang theory, the universe emerged from an extremely dense and hot state (singularity). Space itself has been expanding ever since, carrying galaxies with it." (Wikipedia)

So where does the density and hot stage come from? The Big Bang theory isn't complete.
Talking about time and space... space is something consisting out of air to most people and then I wonder where air comes from.
Time- that's clearly an invention. I do believe time exists but if we didn't count it, it wouldn't have a meaning or existance.

For me the most valid thing to say is that the universe is infinite. It's the ONLY argument that doesn't require any further questions. Therefore it doesn't require proof like the Big Bang does. This causes people to think that it's a bad theory because knowledge requires proof. At this point you can argue about what knowledge is. But if something can't have a question, isn't that enough to 'know' it can be true?
Or do you want to ask: What caused infinity?
Yes, I think infinity exists and it's such a good feeling to finally get away with something.
I'm not arguing the big bang itself didn't happen. I'm saying, if you don't believe in a god, then it happened out of nothing-which doesn't go along with the laws of science that we accept today. :shrug:
Agreed... I think it's annoying how every thread Lafuria starts ends with talking about the creation of the universe anyway.

Pfloyd
04-17-2007, 04:50 PM
I didn't read it yet. :lol:
You should make those threads more frequently, as soon as you see the prior on page 2.

I do what I can. I don't want to create too many of these threads as some people may start disliking them. Also, I need to think about interesting questions that won't bore people.

I didn't undertand what you meant by the "prior" comment.

Thanks for your support and participation though. I will make another one of these threads soon. Thanks Olga :)

Pfloyd
04-17-2007, 04:53 PM
Also, and just thinking: maybe certain thoughts in the mind are uncaused.

People think all the time and many times one isn't even aware of it. There is no necessary cause to think about random things....

JBdV
04-17-2007, 10:54 PM
Time- that's clearly an invention. I do believe time exists but if we didn't count it, it wouldn't have a meaning or existance.


Albert Einstein disagreed ;) But I guess you're seeing things more from a philosophical rather than scientific point of view. But the two often overlap.
And if the Universe is infinite, do you ever ask yourself why the sky at night isn't entirely lit with stars? Because since space is populated with stars, if it was infinite then wherever piece of sky you looked at your gaze should eventually end on a star...Kind of like if you were in the middle of a dense forest, all you would see is trees all around you. I used to ask myself that when I was a kid...

Washa Koroleva
04-24-2007, 01:18 AM
Sorry it took me so long, I was thinking about the 'time' part. Cats have no watches, they don't count time. My cat always comes into my room at exactly 5am. That prooves to me time may actually exist.

As for the universe being infinite. Stars appear smaller the further away they are, some disappear because of that. The universe is far away. The way you describe it sounds like a courtain up there with a star pattern on it.