The death of Europe [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

The death of Europe

kapranos
03-22-2007, 04:40 PM
German judge under fire for using Koran to deny divorce

Mar 22, 2007, 12:47 GMT


Berlin - A German judge has come under fire for her refusal to grant a divorce to a Muslim woman beaten by her husband on the grounds that marital violence is condoned by the Koran.

Politicians, Muslims and legal experts have criticized the judge's remarks, which came in a letter denying the 26-year-old mother-of-two a fast-track divorce from her Moroccan husband.

The woman, a German of Moroccan descent, was living apart from her violent husband when she sought a divorce before the end of the usual one-year legal separation period because of continued threats made by the man against her.

After the husband contested the divorce, the judge at the Frankfurt Family Court turned down the woman's application, noting that the couple grew up with the Moroccan culture.

'In these cultural circles it is not uncommon for the husband to make use of his right of corporal punishment against his wife,' she wrote. 'The German-born applicant must have realized this when she married the Moroccan-born' man.

'The ruling sends a terrible signal to Muslim women,' said Kristina Koehler, an expert on Islam and a member of parliament for Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrat-Christian Social Union alliance.

Calling it 'unacceptable and abhorrent' for women to be told by a German court of an Islamic right to corporal punishment, she said the judge should have followed German civil law and not Islamic teaching.

'It is unbelievable that a German judge should give such a ruling, said Turkish-born German sociologist Necla Kelek. 'The law should be applied the same way to everyone, regardless of whether they are Muslim or Christian.'

Green Party politician Hans-Christian Stroebele said a judge in Germany was obliged to follow German laws and legal rulings. 'Violence and threatening behaviour against another person is a criminal offence in Germany, and rightly so,' Stroebele said.

Following disclosure of the judge's remarks, she was removed from the case and it was taken over by another judge.

- - -

R.I.P. Europe... It was fun while it last...

zicofirol
03-22-2007, 05:10 PM
haha, it might seem like exaggeration, but stories like this keep popping up all over Europe, especially in the UK(you actually had a city or county ban images of pigs from the workplace because it was offensive to muslims :retard: :retard: )

To tell you the truth I am not suprised by stories like these anymore, as ridiculous as they are, we will see more of this, much more in the coming years... That is the evils of multiculturalism....

mtw
03-22-2007, 05:52 PM
What a stupid topic again. Are you really mad?
It is known, that men hammer wifes all over the world and especially in US and UK.

zicofirol
03-22-2007, 06:08 PM
What a stupid topic again. Are you really mad?
It is known, that men hammer wifes all over the world and especially in US and UK.
so it makes it right? besides you go to jail if you do that in the US... lol I dont think you understood the story...

jocaputs
03-22-2007, 06:54 PM
What a stupid topic again. Are you really mad?
It is known, that men hammer wifes all over the world and especially in US and UK.

mtw, you dickhead, you never understand anything...


by the way, i find it pathetic a judge uses Coranic law in aneuropean country

*Ljubica*
03-22-2007, 07:10 PM
What a stupid topic again. Are you really mad?
It is known, that men hammer wifes all over the world and especially in US and UK.

But never in Poland I guess :rolleyes: I usually try not to rise to the bait with you mtw - just count to 10 and move on, - but that is one of the most ridiculous, biased, racist comments I have ever heard. Your hatred against the US and the UK is just :retard: And - please tell me - if the UK is really so bad - why are thousands of Polish people coming over here to live and work since Poland joned the EU! And - no - I am not anti-Polish - I work with a couple of Polish girls, and they are really great people, and very hard workers, and good luck to them if they want to move here - but sometimes your totally stupid comments make me mad!!!!

Jim Jones
03-22-2007, 07:33 PM
But never in Poland I guess :rolleyes: I usually try not to rise to the bait with you mtw - just count to 10 and move on, - but that is one of the most ridiculous, biased, racist comments I have ever heard. Your hatred against the US and the UK is just :retard: And - please tell me - if the UK is really so bad - why are thousands of Polish people coming over here to live and work since Poland joned the EU! And - no - I am not anti-Polish - I work with a couple of Polish girls, and they are really great people, and very hard workers, and good luck to them if they want to move here - but sometimes your totally stupid comments make me mad!!!!
well said. :yeah:
As for the woman she should be suspended for what she did. If she had done it by the bible she would have been so a long time ago. Germany is a secular nation.

mtw
03-23-2007, 02:42 PM
But never in Poland I guess :rolleyes: I usually try not to rise to the bait with you mtw - just count to 10 and move on, - but that is one of the most ridiculous, biased, racist comments I have ever heard. Your hatred against the US and the UK is just :retard: And - please tell me - if the UK is really so bad - why are thousands of Polish people coming over here to live and work since Poland joned the EU! And - no - I am not anti-Polish - I work with a couple of Polish girls, and they are really great people, and very hard workers, and good luck to them if they want to move here - but sometimes your totally stupid comments make me mad!!!!

With girls? Where do you work with these girls exactly? In escort agency?
Tousends of people from Poland go to UK not, because of love to England, but because of lack of the perspectives in own state.

mtw
03-23-2007, 02:44 PM
mtw, you dickhead, you never understand anything...


by the way, i find it pathetic a judge uses Coranic law in aneuropean country
You understand nothing, you idiot.

mtw
03-23-2007, 02:46 PM
well said. :yeah:
As for the woman she should be suspended for what she did. If she had done it by the bible she would have been so a long time ago. Germany is a secular nation.

There are many Christians there: most of all - Protestants.
Say something about your nation.

mtw
03-23-2007, 02:50 PM
so it makes it right? besides you go to jail if you do that in the US... lol I dont think you understood the story...

There are many TV series on Discovery for instance: Forensic Medicine. They show, what American men make with their wives. They do that. And what, that a crime is discovered after 10 or 20 years? It gives nothing. The mentality of some men is just so. They are very aggressive and they can be harmful for weaker persons: not only for woman, for children too.

Jim Jones
03-23-2007, 03:06 PM
There are many Christians there: most of all - Protestants.
Say something about your nation.

No kidding. Germany is a Christian country yes I know that but what I am saying is that in the west it is easier to deal with your own kind then with minorities. My nation(s) is India and Switzerland. The sharia is used for muslims to a certain extent. As long as Indian values prevail I don't care too much. India has not collapsed like Soviet union, Yugoslavia etc...despite its diversity. The last break up was in 1947 and there won't be anymore breakup of the country. (at least nt in my lifetime)

In Switzerland, any judge who would do what that idiot did would be booted out so I am very happy with our system.

zicofirol
03-23-2007, 03:16 PM
There are many TV series on Discovery for instance: Forensic Medicine. They show, what American men make with their wives. They do that. And what, that a crime is discovered after 10 or 20 years? It gives nothing. The mentality of some men is just so. They are very aggressive and they can be harmful for weaker persons: not only for woman, for children too.

has anyone outside the US seen that Discovery Forensic medicine show, I now am back to thinking that mtw is just pulling a big joke on us? lol..

Why is it relevant to this story that some men hit their wife in the US, i still think you dont get the first post,lol...

guille&tati4life
03-23-2007, 03:39 PM
With girls? Where do you work with these girls exactly? In escort agency?
Tousends of people from Poland go to UK not, because of love to England, but because of lack of the perspectives in own state.

I know many Polish students ;)

Julio1974
03-23-2007, 03:43 PM
With girls? Where do you work with these girls exactly? In escort agency?
Tousends of people from Poland go to UK not, because of love to England, but because of lack of the perspectives in own state.

No, Rosie is not in the same business as you. I think you hate the US because American guys don't leave good tips for you.

kapranos
03-23-2007, 04:02 PM
I'm not sure mtw can read or write in English.

guille&tati4life
03-23-2007, 04:11 PM
Source for your story please Kapranos

*Ljubica*
03-23-2007, 04:25 PM
With girls? Where do you work with these girls exactly? In escort agency?
Tousends of people from Poland go to UK not, because of love to England, but because of lack of the perspectives in own state.

:haha: :haha: So in your perverse view of the world, all Polish girls working in the UK are prostitutes working in Escort Agencies :retard: LOL - that is the best laugh I have had all day - though very demeaning towards the women from your own country I think. Anyway - no - for your information - I work in a normal office in London, and the Polish girls there are filing clerks and clerical staff. Anyway - people warned me that I shouldn't have got involved in a conversation with you - you would drive a teetotaller to drink with your strange logic. So I will escape to somewhere more peaceful I think!!! Thanks for making me :haha: You're a true original!!!

Nathaliia
03-23-2007, 04:33 PM
I know many Polish students ;)

Me, for example :)

Julio1974
03-23-2007, 04:37 PM
Source for your story please Kapranos

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6480503.stm
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,473017,00.html

mtw
03-23-2007, 06:17 PM
I think you hate the US because American guys don't leave good tips for you.

Sick booby. What do you mean exactly?

mtw
03-23-2007, 06:22 PM
:haha: :haha: So in your perverse view of the world, all Polish girls working in the UK are prostitutes working in Escort Agencies :retard: LOL - that is the best laugh I have had all day - though very demeaning towards the women from your own country I think. Anyway - no - for your information - I work in a normal office in London, and the Polish girls there are filing clerks and clerical staff. Anyway - people warned me that I shouldn't have got involved in a conversation with you - you would drive a teetotaller to drink with your strange logic. So I will escape to somewhere more peaceful I think!!! Thanks for making me :haha: You're a true original!!!

No. They work, as waitresses in pubs. Do you think, that this is the top of the dreams for woman after study to work, as waitress.? And such kind of rubbish, that they work in offices, you can keep for yourself. Maybe they clear up in offices.

mtw
03-23-2007, 06:35 PM
I'm not sure mtw can read or write in English.

What is the purpose of your topics? Is something wrong with your head? Go to psychiatrist. Have you something against Muslims? Are you Polish journalist? What do you want exactly? The great inspection is coming. This law is very good. It founds, that all people, who were involved in emmissary activity ( including KGB, CIA, MOSAD and others not only SB ) have to be moved away from public offices. And very well. And this, that journalists must be inspected, is brilliant.

guille&tati4life
03-23-2007, 06:59 PM
Me, for example :)

Exactly like you :p only some who live in Scotland too :). Perhaps like you one day.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6480503.stm
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,473017,00.html

Thanks.
I'm not to sure what you mean by "The Death of Europe" Kapranos. Just seems like a stupid court decision to me.

No. They work, as waitresses in pubs. Do you think, that this is the top of the dreams for woman after study to work, as waitress.? And such kind of rubbish, that they work in offices, you can keep for yourself. Maybe they clear up in offices.

:rolls:
Many are at university, that is for sure.

What is the purpose of your topics? Is something wrong with your head? Go to psychiatrist. Have you something against Muslims? Are you Polish journalist? What do you want exactly? The great inspection is coming. This law is very good. It founds, that all people, who were involved in emmissary activity ( including KGB, CIA, MOSAD and others not only SB ) have to be moved away from public offices. And very well. And this, that journalists must be inspected, is brilliant.

I'm guessing so ;)

kapranos
03-23-2007, 07:00 PM
What is the purpose of your topics? Is something wrong with your head? Go to psychiatrist. Have you something against Muslims? Are you Polish journalist? What do you want exactly? The great inspection is coming. This law is very good. It founds, that all people, who were involved in emmissary activity ( including KGB, CIA, MOSAD and others not only SB ) have to be moved away from public offices. And very well. And this, that journalists must be inspected, is brilliant.

:speakles:

kapranos
03-23-2007, 07:01 PM
I'm guessing so ;)

I don't have anything against muslims.

I'm not to sure what you mean by "The Death of Europe" Kapranos.

Europe is dead and this decision reflects it perfectly.

guille&tati4life
03-23-2007, 07:12 PM
I don't have anything against muslims.

Europe is dead and this decision reflects it perfectly.

So why not many threads criticising other religions? I disagree with all religions but don't make threads about any. All religions have flaws yet all your religion threads that i recall are about Islam.

How do you mean it's dead? How has it died? You make it seem like Islamic law is running Europe, that's obviously not the case.

kapranos
03-23-2007, 07:18 PM
So why not many threads criticising other religions? I disagree with all religions but don't make threads about any. All religions have flaws yet all your religion threads that i recall are about Islam.

How do you mean it's dead? How has it died? You make it seem like Islamic law is running Europe, that's obviously not the case.

So if I want to discuss say, Coria weaknesses, I need to discuss every other ATP players weaknesses as well or not discuss it at all? With that logic, either we start 3000 threads about topic X, or we don't start anything at all. The board would either be flooded or the board would have 0 post.

Europe is dead.

R.Federer
03-23-2007, 07:24 PM
If Europe was indeed dead, then original judge would not have been replaced with one who understands that s/he is obliged to follow German law.

Europe is alive.

guille&tati4life
03-23-2007, 07:33 PM
So if I want to discuss say, Coria weaknesses, I need to discuss every other ATP players weaknesses as well or not discuss it at all? With that logic, either we start 3000 threads about topic X, or we don't start anything at all. The board would either be flooded or the board would have 0 post.

Europe is dead.

:rolls: No, but it is a tennis board so it would be more understandable if you continuously made threads criticising Coria rather than some religion. Also, i'd hope you'd have one thread on Coria's weaknesses rather than create many different ones. Can't you just have one anti-Islam thread?

As R.Federer said, the decision was over-turned. So, if you'd care to explain how Europe is dead then please do.

Nathaliia
03-23-2007, 08:26 PM
Exactly like you :p only some who live in Scotland too :). Perhaps like you one day.


Meh, I doubt I'd go there for life. Too windy. I can't tell how my life goes but my parents said they could buy me an apartment in Glasgow if I still wanted, after studies. So maybe.

Carlita
03-23-2007, 08:31 PM
:sobbing::sobbing::sobbing: what an amusing thread :haha:

did you mean this to be a funny thread kapranos?

it's killing me...or rather: someone is :sobbing:

zicofirol
03-23-2007, 08:56 PM
:rolls: No, but it is a tennis board so it would be more understandable if you continuously made threads criticising Coria rather than some religion. Also, i'd hope you'd have one thread on Coria's weaknesses rather than create many different ones. Can't you just have one anti-Islam thread?

As R.Federer said, the decision was over-turned. So, if you'd care to explain how Europe is dead then please do.

Considering Islam has become the biggest threat to western society, id say the religion does need to be singled out, I dont see christians decapitacting 3 muslims girls because they are infidels, I dont see Hindu's putting a bomb on a train just to kill muslims, I dont see any other religion with so many suicide attacks in the last 10 years, so something is definetly wrong there, ignoring it is at worst intellectual dishonesty and at best, stupidity.

Europe is not dead yet, it is showing signs of being brain dead , their zeal for multiculturalism has led them to become morally ambiguous, again, all in the name of multiculturalism, which treats all societies as morally equal, doesnt matter if one society stones women for having sex before marriage, or forces woman into marriage, or a society that allows freedom of expression, is democratic etc.

When all of Europe just folded instead of standing up for the Danish cartoonist, some who are still in hiding as their lives are at risk, that was the sign that Europe was for the taking, not militarily but intellectually which is even worse. Everyday or at least every week, we see these type of stories, that are just chipping away at the cornestone of European society I mean when you have a British town or county banning the images of pigs from the workplace because it offends muslims, then what else can one say?
And like I said its not just one story, there are hundreds of these stories a year throughout Europe, if the European governments refuse to just apply their laws and cave in to these religious zealots then all will be lost.

Do you think its coincidence that Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe?

IMO, you can have 100 terrorist attacks in Europe in the next 5 years, and I am 200% sure they would still not see a threat and just try to blame themselves, or military conflicts etc. for those attacks.

And one last thing, nothing pisses me off more than the so called atheist who are all so quick to criticize christians, catholics etc. but when it comes to Islam they defend it more than muslims themselves, there is only one reason for this, they share the common hatred of western values plain and simple, that is why you see such ridiculous things as Islamic groups teaming up with communist groups and other leftist group, they all share the same hatred.

So until christians, catholics, Hindus, Buddhist, start smashing airplanes into buildings, exploding in trains, beheading infidels, persecuting other sects(worlwide), calling fatwas against anyone who offends them etc. Then I will start worrying about them, until then islam is and should be at the forefront of our attention

kapranos
03-23-2007, 09:17 PM
I think indeed the true problem of the West is self-hate, and Islam is taking advantage of it. The atheists, moral relativists, egalitarians, nihilists, extreme leftists are killing the West.

Let's be clear: I don't wish to live in a Christian theocracy for example. But if we don't even believe strongly in our own values that built the West, in the long term, we are doomed to be dominated by other values, supported by people who feel strongly about them.

Chris 84
03-23-2007, 10:04 PM
Europe is dead.

It clearly produces some brain-dead people, yeah :sad:

Chris 84
03-23-2007, 10:10 PM
So until christians, catholics, Hindus, Buddhist, start smashing airplanes into buildings, exploding in trains, beheading infidels, persecuting other sects(worlwide), calling fatwas against anyone who offends them etc. Then I will start worrying about them, until then islam is and should be at the forefront of our attention

We've done plenty of that in the past.
Besides, wasn't it a pair of Christians who led the war in Iraq and the following massacre of thousands of innocent civilians?

You talk a lot about Western society, and how we must protect it from Islam, etc. Well I am sorry, but Western "society" is partially responsible for many of the evils in this world. Of course terrorist attacks on civilians are never right, and I would never seek to defend Islamic extremism, but Western society is far from ideal itself.

kapranos
03-23-2007, 10:28 PM
It clearly produces some brain-dead people, yeah :sad:

Yes, like you and your friends like Noam Chumsky.

kapranos
03-23-2007, 10:30 PM
We've done plenty of that in the past.
Besides, wasn't it a pair of Christians who led the war in Iraq and the following massacre of thousands of innocent civilians?

You talk a lot about Western society, and how we must protect it from Islam, etc. Well I am sorry, but Western "society" is partially responsible for many of the evils in this world. Of course terrorist attacks on civilians are never right, and I would never seek to defend Islamic extremism, but Western society is far from ideal itself.

Well I agree in the sense that the West is the first responsible for the current mess. Islam are just taking advantage, from their point of view I actually don't blame them.

MissPovaFan
03-23-2007, 10:42 PM
We've done plenty of that in the past.
Besides, wasn't it a pair of Christians who led the war in Iraq and the following massacre of thousands of innocent civilians?

You talk a lot about Western society, and how we must protect it from Islam, etc. Well I am sorry, but Western "society" is partially responsible for many of the evils in this world. Of course terrorist attacks on civilians are never right, and I would never seek to defend Islamic extremism, but Western society is far from ideal itself.

True that we have all been guilty of such actions in the past - but it is widely condemned in the western world - the last real major massacres in the western world took place during the 1990s in the former Yugoslavia - but we are now in a new century and I really can't see how such actions could ever take place again in the West - we have moved on and so should these Islamic extremists. Western people in general would become a lot more tolerant of Islam if thse fundamentalists stopped their actions. For example, the English attitude towards the Irish Republicans has greatly softened since the IRA disarmed.

Chris 84
03-23-2007, 10:52 PM
Yes, like you and your friends like Noam Chumsky.

Did you spell his name wrong deliberately?

True that we have all been guilty of such actions in the past - but it is widely condemned in the western world - the last real major massacres in the western world took place during the 1990s in the former Yugoslavia - but we are now in a new century and I really can't see how such actions could ever take place again in the West - we have moved on and so should these Islamic extremists. Western people in general would become a lot more tolerant of Islam if thse fundamentalists stopped their actions. For example, the English attitude towards the Irish Republicans has greatly softened since the IRA disarmed.

How have we moved on?
It was the West that murdered thousands of civilians in Iraq, wasn't it?
And does Russia count as "the West" or not? If so, the struggle between the Russian state and Chechen seperatists surely counts as massacre on both sides.

Black Adam
03-23-2007, 11:03 PM
With girls? Where do you work with these girls exactly? In escort agency?
Tousends of people from Poland go to UK not, because of love to England, but because of lack of the perspectives in own state.

They go abroad in order to work and be able to support their families that are back there. There are real nice people who work hard. It takes bravery to go abroad in order to support your family back home. In away they are enhancing the Polish economy by sending back Foreign Currency. However something needs to be done about employment in your country.

However :hatoff: to the Polish here who are working hard to support their families unlike MTWs who loaf in their country in front of the computer preaching :bs: about how bad the West is. I would bet that you have a family member in the UK trying his/her best to help you who are back in Poland. In your case this how you appear to me: A lazy girl who is always on the net sharing her stupid views, making enemies, probably without a social life, hates every Jew you see in your country, etc. I suggest you start doing something for your family and for Society by spending less time spreading your blind hatred and xenophobia. Right now you appear to be the most useless person on this forum.

MissPovaFan
03-23-2007, 11:03 PM
How have we moved on?
It was the West that murdered thousands of civilians in Iraq, wasn't it?
And does Russia count as "the West" or not? If so, the struggle between the Russian state and Chechen seperatists surely counts as massacre on both sides.

Iraq is different I feel - the West are simply trying to protect national security and oil revenues etc. rather than their primary aim being to kill/murder.

I don't think you can count Russia as the West yet - more of an intermediate state really.

MissPovaFan
03-23-2007, 11:06 PM
They go abroad in order to work and be able to support their families that are back there. There are real nice people who work hard. It takes bravery to go abroad in order to support your family back home. In away they are enhancing the Polish economy by sending back Foreign Currency. However something needs to be done about employment in your country.

However :hatoff: to the Polish here who are working hard to support their families unlike MTWs who loaf in their country in front of the computer preaching :bs: about how bad the West is. I would bet that you have a family member in the UK trying his/her best to help you who are back in Poland. In your case this how you appear to me: A lazy girl who is always on the net sharing her stupid views, making enemies, probably without a social life, hates every Jew you see in your country, etc. I suggest you start doing something for your family and for Society by spending less time spreading your blind hatred and xenophobia. Right now you appear to be the most useless person on this forum.

There is an ever expanding Polish population in England, especially in my area where they are the most dominant non-English nationality! To be fair they work extremely hard and put us Brits to shame! To be fair they learn the language well and I totally agree with companies employing them over any lazy English people!

I don't really know MTW and haven't followed her posts so I won't comment :)

Black Adam
03-23-2007, 11:07 PM
All the thread by MTW and Kapranos are crap and bullshit. The only reason people are reading and posting in them is because they want to do their systems good by laughing at your stupidity. Personally Icame in this thread for humanitarian causes. You guys need real help.

Chris 84
03-23-2007, 11:08 PM
Iraq is different I feel - the West are simply trying to protect national security and oil revenues etc. rather than their primary aim being to kill/murder.

I don't think you can count Russia as the West yet - more of an intermediate state really.

I don't think that the prime aim of the IRA or of Muslim terrorists is to kill/murder. They do what they do for a purpose, in the same way that USA and UK killed Iraqi civilians for a purpose.

And oil revenue is no excuse for murder, obviously.
As for national security, I really do not think that Iraq was ever a threat to US/UK national security.

Julio1974
03-23-2007, 11:09 PM
Did you spell his name wrong deliberately?



How have we moved on?
It was the West that murdered thousands of civilians in Iraq, wasn't it?And does Russia count as "the West" or not? If so, the struggle between the Russian state and Chechen seperatists surely counts as massacre on both sides.

Actually, no. Most civilians are killed by local groups.

And please, don't tell me you are one of the fans of Chomsky, who denied the genocide in Cambodia and wrote a prologue to a book that denied the Holocaust.

You know what is the difference between a free country and one that is not? Chomsky is still teaching at the MIT, he gives lectures in Harvard all the time, he is not criminally prosecuted by the State, he is not censored, etc. Try to put a "Chomsky" in Cuba, or in Iran let's see how many days he can survive.

MissPovaFan
03-23-2007, 11:15 PM
I don't think that the prime aim of the IRA or of Muslim terrorists is to kill/murder. They do what they do for a purpose, in the same way that USA and UK killed Iraqi civilians for a purpose.

And oil revenue is no excuse for murder, obviously.
As for national security, I really do not think that Iraq was ever a threat to US/UK national security.

The IRA certainly weren't targetting the general public, but politicians such as at Brighton. But the 9/11 attacks was aimed directly at the public - none of those workers in the Twin Towers and Pentagon or the people on the four planes were involved in the United States' foreign policy, but they were the ones killed.

The West are always very remorseful should they kill any Iraqi/Afghan etc. civilians during their attacks.

Iraq was never a threat to security but it was important for the West to secure cheaper oil deals - when a madman such as Saddam Hussein controls them he would hold the West to ransom big time.

MissPovaFan
03-23-2007, 11:20 PM
Actually, no. Most civilians are killed by local groups.

And please, don't tell me you are one of the fans of Chomsky, who denied the genocide in Cambodia and wrote a prologue to a book that denied the Holocaust.

You know what is the difference between a free country and one that is not? Chomsky is still teaching at the MIT, he gives lectures in Harvard all the time, he is not criminally prosecuted by the State, he is not censored, etc. Try to put a "Chomsky" in Cuba, or in Iran let's see how many days he can survive.

Yes that was the case in the former Yugoslavia conflicts, where it was regional groups that carried out the vast majority of attrocities. I doubt Slobodan Milosevic sanctioned half of what went on in Kosovo for example - it was simply hatred of the Albanian's by the Serbian local groups rather than any official policy.

It is impossible and totally incorrect to deny the Holocaust or any other such happening. People are entitled to their own interpretation but should not deny it happened.

True - the wearing of veils etc. in England is an example of a minority group preaching their own ideals in a Christian country. If English people dared to practice some of our traditions in many Islamic countries, we'd be arrested straight away!

Chris 84
03-23-2007, 11:28 PM
Actually, no. Most civilians are killed by local groups.

And please, don't tell me you are one of the fans of Chomsky, who denied the genocide in Cambodia and wrote a prologue to a book that denied the Holocaust.

Actually yes.
I said that the West had killed thousands of civilians. And so they have.

And I didn't mention Chomsky at all, I just know how to spell his name ;)

The IRA certainly weren't targetting the general public, but politicians such as at Brighton. But the 9/11 attacks was aimed directly at the public - none of those workers in the Twin Towers and Pentagon or the people on the four planes were involved in the United States' foreign policy, but they were the ones killed.

The West are always very remorseful should they kill any Iraqi/Afghan etc. civilians during their attacks.

Iraq was never a threat to security but it was important for the West to secure cheaper oil deals - when a madman such as Saddam Hussein controls them he would hold the West to ransom big time.

The IRA did sometimes target the general public. It was the general public who were the people most commonly killed by the IRA :shrug:

Oh, we are remorseful, cool.
So if Bin Laden hasd said that he masterminded 9/11, etc, but he was sorry, would that make it ok? :p

Securing cheaper oil deals by going to war with a country is kinda immoral, don't you think? :p

MissPovaFan
03-23-2007, 11:52 PM
Actually yes.
I said that the West had killed thousands of civilians. And so they have.

And I didn't mention Chomsky at all, I just know how to spell his name ;)



The IRA did sometimes target the general public. It was the general public who were the people most commonly killed by the IRA :shrug:

Oh, we are remorseful, cool.
So if Bin Laden hasd said that he masterminded 9/11, etc, but he was sorry, would that make it ok? :p

Securing cheaper oil deals by going to war with a country is kinda immoral, don't you think? :p

Yep the West have but they were totally unintentional and they have since shown a great deal of remorse for them. A lot of the deaths are due to rogue states employing human shields as well remember.

The IRA were more intent of disruption. Birmingham 1974 and Omagh 1998 aside of course, although the 1998 attack was only a splinter group of the main IRA.

The difference was Bin Laden intended to murder civilians whereas the West do not really want any Iraqi/Afghan civilians to die - quite the opposite really.

It is very very immoral but they are only protecting Western interests and if that includes deposing of a rogue leader/state then so be it :)

mtw
03-24-2007, 02:59 PM
They go abroad in order to work and be able to support their families that are back there. There are real nice people who work hard. It takes bravery to go abroad in order to support your family back home. In away they are enhancing the Polish economy by sending back Foreign Currency. However something needs to be done about employment in your country.

However :hatoff: to the Polish here who are working hard to support their families unlike MTWs who loaf in their country in front of the computer preaching :bs: about how bad the West is. I would bet that you have a family member in the UK trying his/her best to help you who are back in Poland. In your case this how you appear to me: A lazy girl who is always on the net sharing her stupid views, making enemies, probably without a social life, hates every Jew you see in your country, etc. I suggest you start doing something for your family and for Society by spending less time spreading your blind hatred and xenophobia. Right now you appear to be the most useless person on this forum.


Of course. You are right. I worked in the West too, not in the escort agency, but in my studied proffesion. It was very nice time of my life, much better, than in Poland. Without the possibilities of work for Poles in the West Europe, it would be real disaster for us.
The second part of your utterance is real stupidity. Maybe you should change your view. What do you do for your country and what is your social life? Do you support bookmakers? And say something about xenophobia and blind hatred of your country? Firstly you should answer, why Great Britain will accept so much Poles? And what with Muslims for instance from Pakistan? They need your help too.
What in your opinion should I do for my country. I can take part in a peaceful demonstartion against antimissile defence system in Poland or war against Iraq and Afghanistan and work for good of my state in my state. Besides I have here my family and acquaintances. It is not bad with social contacts. Of course I have no bloody willingness to work in Great Britain.

mtw
03-24-2007, 03:16 PM
Actually, no. Most civilians are killed by local groups.

And please, don't tell me you are one of the fans of Chomsky, who denied the genocide in Cambodia and wrote a prologue to a book that denied the Holocaust.

You know what is the difference between a free country and one that is not? Chomsky is still teaching at the MIT, he gives lectures in Harvard all the time, he is not criminally prosecuted by the State, he is not censored, etc. Try to put a "Chomsky" in Cuba, or in Iran let's see how many days he can survive.

We know all crimes. We recognize such crimes, as Holocaust, innocent victims in Cambodia, Vietnam, China, Argentina, Chile, states of South America, during domestic wars, actually Iraq, Afghanistan, and former victims of conquest of North and South America, where population of native people was decimated. No ideology or system will explain genocides. Crime is crime and it must be punished.
By the way your president began acount with criminals, who commited this terrible crimes in your state in the past. It seems, that he is law-abiding, right, proper person.
I hope, that my president make proper account too.

guille&tati4life
03-24-2007, 03:26 PM
I have a hell of a lot to answer :rolls:

Considering Islam has become the biggest threat to western society, id say the religion does need to be singled out, I dont see christians decapitacting 3 muslims girls because they are infidels, I dont see Hindu's putting a bomb on a train just to kill muslims, I dont see any other religion with so many suicide attacks in the last 10 years, so something is definetly wrong there, ignoring it is at worst intellectual dishonesty and at best, stupidity.

Europe is not dead yet, it is showing signs of being brain dead , their zeal for multiculturalism has led them to become morally ambiguous, again, all in the name of multiculturalism, which treats all societies as morally equal, doesnt matter if one society stones women for having sex before marriage, or forces woman into marriage, or a society that allows freedom of expression, is democratic etc.

When all of Europe just folded instead of standing up for the Danish cartoonist, some who are still in hiding as their lives are at risk, that was the sign that Europe was for the taking, not militarily but intellectually which is even worse. Everyday or at least every week, we see these type of stories, that are just chipping away at the cornestone of European society I mean when you have a British town or county banning the images of pigs from the workplace because it offends muslims, then what else can one say?
And like I said its not just one story, there are hundreds of these stories a year throughout Europe, if the European governments refuse to just apply their laws and cave in to these religious zealots then all will be lost.

Do you think its coincidence that Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe?

IMO, you can have 100 terrorist attacks in Europe in the next 5 years, and I am 200% sure they would still not see a threat and just try to blame themselves, or military conflicts etc. for those attacks.

And one last thing, nothing pisses me off more than the so called atheist who are all so quick to criticize christians, catholics etc. but when it comes to Islam they defend it more than muslims themselves, there is only one reason for this, they share the common hatred of western values plain and simple, that is why you see such ridiculous things as Islamic groups teaming up with communist groups and other leftist group, they all share the same hatred.

So until christians, catholics, Hindus, Buddhist, start smashing airplanes into buildings, exploding in trains, beheading infidels, persecuting other sects(worlwide), calling fatwas against anyone who offends them etc. Then I will start worrying about them, until then islam is and should be at the forefront of our attention

I'm not saying we can't discuss it. I'm saying making continuous threads attacking Islam (not Islamic fundamentalists) is pointless. Have one thread.

:rolls: Who in this thread has even claimed to support Islam. I tell you why i find myself standing up for Islam. It's because we are getting ludicrous threads comparing it to Mein Kampf or claiming that it is killing Europe. If we make a thread to discuss how much of Islam we agree with and how much we disagree with, i'll attack parts of Islam. If we make a thread to discuss Islamic extremists, i'll attack them too. However, we get mind blowingly stupid threads claiming that Islam has killed Europe.

The judge was over-ruled, the decision over-turned. How is Europe dying if European law is being used as opposed to Islamic law??? (I know that you recognize this Zicofirol, it's for Kapranos's benefit)

Why are suicide attacks considered so much worse than other ways of killing people? :confused: It makes no sense to me :shrug:. I find murders being committed by armies just as sick and twisted and their being committed by many people with many different religions.

Plenty of Europeans are blaming the attackers now. I blame the attackers too and loathe their actions. I also see that Europe is partially responsible for what makes these maniacs act in this manner.

I think indeed the true problem of the West is self-hate, and Islam is taking advantage of it. The atheists, moral relativists, egalitarians, nihilists, extreme leftists are killing the West.

Let's be clear: I don't wish to live in a Christian theocracy for example. But if we don't even believe strongly in our own values that built the West, in the long term, we are doomed to be dominated by other values, supported by people who feel strongly about them.

:haha: Yes, those damn atheists are all killing the West. :haha: If only you weren't so scared of the arse clown contest :awww:. Not only is it an incorrect claim in my opinion but it's one of the biggest generalisations i've ever seen :haha:

Yes, like you and your friends like Noam Chumsky.

Why do you keep bringing him up??? It's like anyone who argues against you must love Chomsky? It's you who seems to be obsessed with him :unsure:. I know a few things that Chomsky has written/said, I don't follow Chomsky, i'm certainly not a follower of his.

Actually, no. Most civilians are killed by local groups.

And please, don't tell me you are one of the fans of Chomsky, who denied the genocide in Cambodia and wrote a prologue to a book that denied the Holocaust.

You know what is the difference between a free country and one that is not? Chomsky is still teaching at the MIT, he gives lectures in Harvard all the time, he is not criminally prosecuted by the State, he is not censored, etc. Try to put a "Chomsky" in Cuba, or in Iran let's see how many days he can survive.

So are you claiming that the West haven't killed 1000s of people in Iraq? :unsure: That was all that was said :shrug:

No-one has brought up Chomsky apart from Kapranos. I don't know if Chris likes him, but i do know that Chris thinks that the Holocaust took place.

So you think it's a good thing that a guy can go about saying the holocaust never happened? Is Austria not a free country? They jailed a historian for making this claim. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4733820.stm


Yep the West have but they were totally unintentional and they have since shown a great deal of remorse for them. A lot of the deaths are due to rogue states employing human shields as well remember.

The IRA were more intent of disruption. Birmingham 1974 and Omagh 1998 aside of course, although the 1998 attack was only a splinter group of the main IRA.

The difference was Bin Laden intended to murder civilians whereas the West do not really want any Iraqi/Afghan civilians to die - quite the opposite really.

It is very very immoral but they are only protecting Western interests and if that includes deposing of a rogue leader/state then so be it :)

Oh come on :rolleyes: Saying we're sorry we killed people isn't really too helpful ;) . They knew that going to war would lead to civillian casualties and you even said yourself that you think they went in for oil. So, either you think that killing people for oil is ok (which i highly doubt knowing you) or you think that going to war was wrong. In which case, the US and UK must take responsibility for the numbers of civillian casualties.

Yes, it is true that Bin Laden etc aim to murder while it is not the purpose of the invading armies. I wouldn't compare the two. However, both are responsible for 1000s of murders.

I'm glad you recognize it's immoral. Why "so be it"? :lol: Immoral decisions which lead to death should not just be accepted :p

kapranos
03-24-2007, 03:42 PM
Who in this thread has even claimed to support Islam. I tell you why i find myself standing up for Islam. It's because we are getting ludicrous threads comparing it to Mein Kampf or claiming that it is killing Europe.

I didn't say Islam is killing Europe. Where did I say that? I think the German judge is the perfect example to why Europe is dying, and she's not a muslim. :wavey:

:haha: Yes, those damn atheists are all killing the West. :haha: If only you weren't so scared of the arse clown contest :awww:. Not only is it an incorrect claim in my opinion but it's one of the biggest generalisations i've ever seen :haha:

I didn't mean to say "all" atheists. But people don't stand up to West values, so in the long term we're dead. Every day Europe loses a battle.; it's just a matter of time. 100 years maybe.

Why do you keep bringing him up??? It's like anyone who argues against you must love Chomsky? It's you who seems to be obsessed with him :unsure:. I know a few things that Chomsky has written/said, I don't follow Chomsky, i'm certainly not a follower of his.

I wasn't even talking to you, so why do you care?

Yes, it is true that Bin Laden etc aim to murder while it is not the purpose of the invading armies.

That's the point. What matters is purpose. The US was totally justified to go to war against Iraq, and I would fully support them if they would go to war with any other country from the axe of Evil (Iran, North Korea, etc). Thank God the US is doing something against Evil. Fighting Evil (like Saddam) IS ALWAYS justified.

Jim Jones
03-24-2007, 03:46 PM
I have a hell of a lot to answer :rolls:



I'm not saying we can't discuss it. I'm saying making continuous threads attacking Islam (not Islamic fundamentalists) is pointless. Have one thread.

:rolls: Who in this thread has even claimed to support Islam. I tell you why i find myself standing up for Islam. It's because we are getting ludicrous threads comparing it to Mein Kampf or claiming that it is killing Europe. If we make a thread to discuss how much of Islam we agree with and how much we disagree with, i'll attack parts of Islam. If we make a thread to discuss Islamic extremists, i'll attack them too. However, we get mind blowingly stupid threads claiming that Islam has killed Europe.

The judge was over-ruled, the decision over-turned. How is Europe dying if European law is being used as opposed to Islamic law??? (I know that you recognize this Zicofirol, it's for Kapranos's benefit)

Plenty of Europeans are blaming the attackers now. I blame the attackers too and loathe their actions. I also see that Europe is partially responsible for what makes these maniacs act in this manner.

:haha: Yes, those damn atheists are all killing the West. :haha: If only you weren't so scared of the arse clown contest :awww:. Not only is it an incorrect claim in my opinion but it's one of the biggest generalisations i've ever seen :haha:

So are you claiming that the West haven't killed 1000s of people in Iraq? :unsure: That was all that was said :shrug:

Oh come on :rolleyes: Saying we're sorry we killed people isn't really too helpful ;) . They knew that going to war would lead to civillian casualties and you even said yourself that you think they went in for oil. So, either you think that killing people for oil is ok (which i highly doubt knowing you) or you think that going to war was wrong. In which case, the US and UK must take responsibility for the numbers of civillian casualties.

Yes, it is true that Bin Laden etc aim to murder while it is not the purpose of the invading armies. I wouldn't compare the two. However, both are responsible for 1000s of murders.

I'm glad you recognize it's immoral. Why "so be it"? :lol: Immoral decisions which lead to death should not just be accepted :p

The judge was overuled but she should be suspended for her inefficiency. So many others who are no good at their job are fired or suspended and why should she be the exception.

Islam is very much in the news these days and yes the religion and Islamist radicalism should be seperated. What we should say is that Islam has a clash of civilization with other culture whether they are Chrisitan,a theist, buddhist, hindu etc...That is a fact that can't be denied.

The west has not killed 1000s of Iraqis. It is Iraqis killing Iraqis with western deaths and killings being secondary.....The U.S/UK did not got to war in Iraq because of oil but because Islamist radicalism was and still is a threat as it was in Afghanistan which does not have oil. Giving the excuse and inaccurate statement that Saddam was secular just does not work. I sugesst you go to a 'secular' arab state like Libya whch is supposingly riuled by socialists and you will see how islamism is prevalent there. Libya is now our friend for now.

guille&tati4life
03-24-2007, 03:49 PM
I didn't say Islam is killing Europe. Where did I say that? I think the German judge is the perfect example to why Europe is dying, and she's not a muslim. :wavey:

I didn't mean to say "all" atheists. But people don't stand up to West values, so in the long term we're dead. Every day Europe loses a battle.; it's just a matter of time. 100 years maybe.

I wasn't even talking to you, so why do you care?

That's the point. What matters is purpose. The US was totally justified to go to war against Iraq, and I would fully support them if they would go to war with any other country from the axe of Evil (Iran, North Korea, etc). Thank God the US is doing something against Evil.

How has she killed Europe???

Western values like Christianity? Why should they if they disagree with it like atheists do?

So what? I can only answer things directed to me? :lol: I care because i read it and thought it was a stupid comment.

Sorry, I was talking to PaulHopkins, you can't answer that post :wavey:.
Honestly, why do you think they invaded Iraq?

kapranos
03-24-2007, 03:53 PM
How has she killed Europe???


Okay. That's actually a metaphor. Even when Europe will be dead, Europe will still be "alive".

Honestly, why do you think they invaded Iraq?

The US was justified to go to war against Iraq. People want peace, but peace will only come if we get rid of what threaten peace.

guille&tati4life
03-24-2007, 03:55 PM
The judge was overuled but she should be suspended for her inefficiency. So many others who are no good at their job are fired or suspended and why should she be the exception.

Islam is very much in the news these days and yes the religion and Islamist radicalism should be seperated. What we should say is that Islam has a clash of civilization with other culture whether they are Chrisitan,a theist, buddhist, hindu etc...That is a fact that can't be denied.

The west has not killed 1000s of Iraqis. It is Iraqis killing Iraqis with western deaths and killings being secondary.....The U.S/UK did not got to war in Iraq because of oil but because Islamist radicalism was and still is a threat as it was in Afghanistan which does not have oil. Giving the excuse and inaccurate statement that Saddam was secular just does not work. I sugesst you go to a 'secular' arab state like Libya whch is supposingly riuled by socialists and you will see how islamism is prevalent there. Libya is now our friend for now.

She shouldn't :shrug:

:eek: So, over the years you don't think that 1000s of Iraquis have been killed as a result of western actions? That's contrary to things at least in the news. Maybe western killings are secondary i'd just be very surprised if they hadn't made it to 1000 kills yet.
Tony Blair told Britain that they were going to war with Iraq cos they had weapons of mass destruction (i think that's a bad reason) that fits their theory. When they found there were none, he claimed that they'd actually gone in because Saddam is evil. This leads me to question why they don't invade many other countries.

guille&tati4life
03-24-2007, 03:57 PM
Okay. That's actually a metaphor. Even when Europe will be dead, Europe will still be "alive".

The US was justified to go to war against Iraq. People want peace, but peace will only come if we get rid of what threaten peace.

I got that it was a metaphor ;) . What i don't get is why you think multiculturalism should kill Europe.

Ok, if i accept that, that means that the US should invade lots and lots of other countries.

kapranos
03-24-2007, 03:57 PM
She shouldn't :shrug:

:eek: So, over the years you don't think that 1000s of Iraquis have been killed as a result of western actions? That's contrary to things at least in the news. Maybe western killings are secondary i'd just be very surprised if they hadn't made it to 1000 kills yet.
Tony Blair told Britain that they were going to war with Iraq cos they had weapons of mass destruction (i think that's a bad reason) that fits their theory. When they found there were none, he claimed that they'd actually gone in because Saddam is evil. This leads me to question why they don't invade many other countries.

Well invading ONE country takes enough ressources and money, they can't fight Evil all over the world at the same time.

Saddam was a weapon of mass destruction himself. So Iraq did have wmd.

kapranos
03-24-2007, 03:59 PM
I got that it was a metaphor ;) . What i don't get is why you think multiculturalism should kill Europe.

Ok, if i accept that, that means that the US should invade lots and lots of other countries.

I don't have anything against multi-culturalism.

mtw
03-24-2007, 03:59 PM
How has she killed Europe???

Western values like Christianity? Why should they if they disagree with it like atheists do?

So what? I can only answer things directed to me? :lol: I care because i read it and thought it was a stupid comment.

Sorry, I was talking to PaulHopkins, you can't answer that post :wavey:.
Honestly, why do you think they invaded Iraq?


I think, that something is not wrong with this Kapranos. Polish people do not think that. He is in the minority. We had demonstration against this antimissile system and against this war today in Poland. We have nothing against Muslims, Iraq and Afghanistan. Every of us know, that war in Iraq was illegal ( without the permission of UN or NATO ) and it should be reported back, as every of illegal wars for instance war in Yougoslavia.
I don't know. Maybe he writes this rubbish, because he lives in US or because he has not clear conscience and is afraid of inspection. If yes let he leave all hope. Nothing will help him.

guille&tati4life
03-24-2007, 04:00 PM
Well invading ONE country takes enough ressources and money, they can't fight Evil all over the world at the same time.

Saddam was a weapon of mass destruction himself. So Iraq did have wmd.

Ok. But soon enough you expect them to go after Saudi Arabia do you? I'd doubt that what with the amount of oil that the Saudis give them. Many people here criticise the way Cuba opperates too. Should they invade Cuba? China too? The list goes on and on and on

:tape:

guille&tati4life
03-24-2007, 04:01 PM
I don't have anything against multi-culturalism.

Ok, so what is it that's killing Europe?

MissPovaFan
03-24-2007, 04:05 PM
Of course. You are right. I worked in the West too, not in the escort agency, but in my studied proffesion. It was very nice time of my life, much better, than in Poland. Without the possibilities of work for Poles in the West Europe, it would be real disaster for us.
The second part of your utterance is real stupidity. Maybe you should change your view. What do you do for your country and what is your social life? Do you support bookmakers? And say something about xenophobia and blind hatred of your country? Firstly you should answer, why Great Britain will accept so much Poles? And what with Muslims for instance from Pakistan? They need your help too.
What in your opinion should I do for my country. I can take part in a peaceful demonstartion against antimissile defence system in Poland or war against Iraq and Afghanistan and work for good of my state in my state. Besides I have here my family and acquaintances. It is not bad with social contacts. Of course I have no bloody willingness to work in Great Britain.

England accepts so many poles due to the European Union legislation that allows workers access in all EU countries - also the ridiculous PC quotas that are in place contribute to this. It's different with the Pakistanis and Indians as we have historic ties with them that allows them access - this has been the case since the fall of the Empire and is now difficult to stop as many of them have become English citizens.

I have nothing against the Polish and welcome them into England - most of them are very hard workers and integrate well into our society.

mtw
03-24-2007, 04:07 PM
That's the point. What matters is purpose. The US was totally justified to go to war against Iraq, and I would fully support them if they would go to war with any other country from the axe of Evil (Iran, North Korea, etc). Thank God the US is doing something against Evil. Fighting Evil (like Saddam) IS ALWAYS justified.


No. They are not justified. And you must go to psychiatrist. It is not the shame.

kapranos
03-24-2007, 04:07 PM
Ok, so what is it that's killing Europe?

We give up our values too easily. There's an article everyday on the newspaper to confirm it, like this one. :wavey:

Julio1974
03-24-2007, 04:08 PM
How has she killed Europe???



Don't you see it? This judgment is a gross contradiction with basic human right values, as understood in Europe.

In western societies, beating women is wrong, if you do it you go to jail. I don't give a damm if it's normal in other countries or in other cultures. This judge got it all wrong: an European judge cannot refuse to protect a woman who is beaten on the ground that in other cultures is ok to do it and she should have known when she got married. She is living in Europe now and she has the same rights as any other European woman. This judgment in insane.

Unfortunately, multiculturalism is destroying Europe.

kapranos
03-24-2007, 04:10 PM
I think, that something is not wrong with this Kapranos. Polish people do not think that. He is in the minority. We had demonstration against this antimissile system and against this war today in Poland. We have nothing against Muslims, Iraq and Afghanistan. Every of us know, that war in Iraq was illegal ( without the permission of UN or NATO ) and it should be reported back, as every of illegal wars for instance war in Yougoslavia.
I don't know. Maybe he writes this rubbish, because he lives in US or because he has not clear conscience and is afraid of inspection. If yes let he leave all hope. Nothing will help him.

I don't have anything against muslims, Iraq and Afghanistan. That's precisely because we CARE :worship: that we started a war.

mtw
03-24-2007, 04:11 PM
England accepts so many poles due to the European Union legislation that allows workers access in all EU countries - also the ridiculous PC quotas that are in place contribute to this. It's different with the Pakistanis and Indians as we have historic ties with them that allows them access - this has been the case since the fall of the Empire and is now difficult to stop as many of them have become English citizens.

I have nothing against the Polish and welcome them into England - most of them are very hard workers and integrate well into our society.


Yes. We accept English, Scottish and Irish people too and Polish people go there with pleasure. I like all other European states and nations too: especially Germany, Italy, Luxemburg, France, Benelux, Scandinavia.

kapranos
03-24-2007, 04:12 PM
And you must go to psychiatrist.

While I do that, maybe you can follow basic English lessons?

mtw
03-24-2007, 04:14 PM
I don't have anything against muslims, Iraq and Afghanistan. That's precisely because we CARE :worship: that we started a war.

I did not start this war I was against it from the beginning. I voted for these people, who rule now, because they promised, that they withdraw our troops from Iraq. How should I know, that they do not make it. And what now? How long must Polish society wait for it? It is and was not our business.

mtw
03-24-2007, 04:15 PM
I don't have anything against muslims, Iraq and Afghanistan. That's precisely because we CARE :worship: that we started a war.

I did not start this war I was against it from the beginning. I voted for these people, who rule now, because they promised, that they withdraw our troops from Iraq. How should I know, that they do not make it. And what now? How long must Polish society wait for it? This war was and is not our business.

MissPovaFan
03-24-2007, 04:45 PM
However, we get mind blowingly stupid threads claiming that Islam has killed Europe.

Why are suicide attacks considered so much worse than other ways of killing people? :confused: It makes no sense to me :shrug:. I find murders being committed by armies just as sick and twisted and their being committed by many people with many different religions.

Plenty of Europeans are blaming the attackers now. I blame the attackers too and loathe their actions. I also see that Europe is partially responsible for what makes these maniacs act in this manner.

Oh come on :rolleyes: Saying we're sorry we killed people isn't really too helpful ;) . They knew that going to war would lead to civillian casualties and you even said yourself that you think they went in for oil. So, either you think that killing people for oil is ok (which i highly doubt knowing you) or you think that going to war was wrong. In which case, the US and UK must take responsibility for the numbers of civillian casualties.

ize it's immoral. Why "so be it"? :lol: Immoral decisions which lead to death should not just be accepted :p

Maybe the title of this thread is misleading and a bit sensationalist but despite that there are some very good points brought up.

There are different types of murder to be fair - the Armies, Navies, Forces etc. are all out there doing a job - which is to risk their lives. Therefore they are fairly open to attacks during conflicts - the general public are NOT. That's what 9/11 showed - when al-Qaeda attacked the general public rather than American forces. When civilians are adly killed in Iraq/Afghanistan, they are NOT being targetted by Western forces, it is accidental and the West are very sorry for this.

To be fair to European states, they attempt to distance themselves from the Americans' actions as much as possible - it is only countries such as England and Spain, who are heavily reliant on each other that actually support them.

The civilian casualties are extremely regrettable of course but they do sadly happen in all conflicts. If Iraq were allowed to extend their influence over the oil in the Gulf THEN they would be able to produce WMD etc. I have no doubt as you mentioned that Blair-Bush used WMD as an excuse, but they would never have gained public support without it. They will both lose in the wrong run though when Labour and the Republicans lose their respective next elections.

The west has not killed 1000s of Iraqis. It is Iraqis killing Iraqis with western deaths and killings being secondary.....The U.S/UK did not got to war in Iraq because of oil but because Islamist radicalism was and still is a threat as it was in Afghanistan which does not have oil.

I totally agree with you, the deaths that are now occuring are due to internal struggles in Iraq, nothing to do with the West. In fact the West had liberated them, yet they still can't behave :rolleyes: With regard to Islamic radicalism, I'm not so sure that was the reason for Iraq as most of the main extremist players had very few ties to Iraq - Saddam was never really a threat, except to the Gulf's oil.

The US was justified to go to war against Iraq. People want peace, but peace will only come if we get rid of what threaten peace.

Sadly the only way to achieve that peace is to despose of the people causing the trouble.

She shouldn't :shrug:

:eek: So, over the years you don't think that 1000s of Iraquis have been killed as a result of western actions? That's contrary to things at least in the news. Maybe western killings are secondary i'd just be very surprised if they hadn't made it to 1000 kills yet.
Tony Blair told Britain that they were going to war with Iraq cos they had weapons of mass destruction (i think that's a bad reason) that fits their theory. When they found there were none, he claimed that they'd actually gone in because Saddam is evil. This leads me to question why they don't invade many other countries.

They have been killed - and I for one don't care a bit about the Iraqi forces that were killed as it was their job. The Iraqi people are not the enemy though and any deaths that occur there are sad and unintentional. Like I said before, WMD was bullshit and Blair will suffer when the Conservatives take over office :) Although it will be Brown who suffers :devil: Other countries such as where? Zimbabwe? The West have no reason to as they don't threaten national security.

I got that it was a metaphor ;) . What i don't get is why you think multiculturalism should kill Europe.

Ok, if i accept that, that means that the US should invade lots and lots of other countries.

North Korea is too dangerous and to be fair they are being kept in check. Iran is a possibility especially considering how hated they are in the Middle East.

Ok. But soon enough you expect them to go after Saudi Arabia do you? I'd doubt that what with the amount of oil that the Saudis give them. Many people here criticise the way Cuba opperates too. Should they invade Cuba? China too? The list goes on and on and on

:tape:

No because in essence, Saudi Arabia are allies of the West and are not threatening to mess about with the oil. Cuba and China are certainly not threats.

zicofirol
03-24-2007, 05:30 PM
We've done plenty of that in the past.
Besides, wasn't it a pair of Christians who led the war in Iraq and the following massacre of thousands of innocent civilians?

You talk a lot about Western society, and how we must protect it from Islam, etc. Well I am sorry, but Western "society" is partially responsible for many of the evils in this world. Of course terrorist attacks on civilians are never right, and I would never seek to defend Islamic extremism, but Western society is far from ideal itself.

I incorrectly pointed out western society, what I meant to say which I must of said it was western values, ie. freedom of speech,religion etc. The west saw many atrocities commited as well.

What was the goal in that massacre? was it to kill thousands of innocent people because they where innocent, didnt they debate the war for over a year, until congress gave the president the power to go to war? If you cant see the difference between those two very very different actions then youre severly misguided, also its been islamic terrorist who have killed most civilians, not the US, why didnt South Corea break into civil war during the wrongful American intervention there? why?

Western society is very much hypocritical yes, and I wrongly use the term but western ideals those that came in the age of enlightenment, where for the first time individual rights where recognized those are vastly, vastly superior to any theocracy out there, and most western countries still defend individual rights on some level, again if you cant see the defference between England, America, France and Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan, then you either hate those western values or your ignorant. So western society as much as it has done bad things is still just by virtue of what it still protects and holds "sacred" superior to Islam, apperantly you dont see that...

I'm not saying we can't discuss it. I'm saying making continuous threads attacking Islam (not Islamic fundamentalists) is pointless. Have one thread.

Who in this thread has even claimed to support Islam. I tell you why i find myself standing up for Islam. It's because we are getting ludicrous threads comparing it to Mein Kampf or claiming that it is killing Europe. If we make a thread to discuss how much of Islam we agree with and how much we disagree with, i'll attack parts of Islam. If we make a thread to discuss Islamic extremists, i'll attack them too. However, we get mind blowingly stupid threads claiming that Islam has killed Europe.
Considering the hatred of jews in the muslim world, and in fact the support the muslim world gave nazi Germany, I wouldnt say both books are far off, in fact I woudl say the Koran is more dangerous, because Mein Kampf is rightly recognized as the ramblings of a mad man, the Koran which is pretty much the same thing, the ramblings of a crazy guy in 600bc, but the book is considered holy and is immune from criticism.
Islam has nto killed Europe, but Europe is letting islam slowly get a strong foothold in Euope, here is a book which I have not read but probably will its called While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within (http://www.amazon.com/While-Europe-Slept-Radical-Destroying/dp/0385514727/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-4661250-0503958?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174752744&sr=8-1)
From Publishers Weekly
Having recently published an indictment of Christian fundamentalist intolerance in the U.S. (Stealing Jesus), New York native Bawer relocated to Europe with his Norwegian partner in 1998 and found an even more dangerous strain of religious and cultural bigotry ensnaring Western Europe. A swarming menace called radical Islam, he writes, rings Europe's cities in smoldering Muslim ghettos, provoking everything from so-called honor killings and political assassinations to the Madrid subway bombings and the massacre of school children in Beslan. Worse, the Taliban-like theocracy Bawer sees looming inside backward immigrant populations resistant to integration flourishes under the protective wing of Western Europe's America-bashing, multicultural, liberal establishment.:worship: The latter correspond to the appeasers of Nazi Germany, in Bawer's view, since he believes that radical Islamism is every bit the threat to Western civilization that Nazism was. He scoffs at talk of "understanding" or "dialogue," indeed, at any but the most muscular response hitching Europe ever tighter to the U.S. war on terror. His clash-of-civilizations outlook means real issues often get washed away by sweeping statements designed to tar Europe's Muslims with one irredeemably hostile, welfare-sponging brush, while trading in well-worn stereotypes about virtuous American "realists" and corrupt European "idealists." thinking ahead before you and others accuse the author of being a republican fundamentalist here is just the 1st sentence from the next review: Bruce Bawer, who has wrestled previously about American fundamentalism (Stealing Jesus) and gay rights (A Place at the Table), finds an equally contentious and compelling subject in the blind eye of European liberalism.

Like I said I have nto read the book but I imagine it would be a good place to start for those who dont see a threat in Islam.
The judge was over-ruled, the decision over-turned. How is Europe dying if European law is being used as opposed to Islamic law??? (I know that you recognize this Zicofirol, it's for Kapranos's benefit)

Why are suicide attacks considered so much worse than other ways of killing people? It makes no sense to me . I find murders being committed by armies just as sick and twisted and their being committed by many people with many different religions.

Plenty of Europeans are blaming the attackers now. I blame the attackers too and loathe their actions. I also see that Europe is partially responsible for what makes these maniacs act in this manner.

The judge was overruled, should of been fired actulally, but like I said there are many many more stories like this throughout Euerope, this was just one example and thankfully there are still some sane people left in Germany that quickly overturned the decision(I wouldn't of been surprised if the decision would of not been overturned).

You cant see a difference between a suicide bomber and x soldier killing another soldier in war, or mistakenly killing an innocent civilian? :rolleyes: yes off course, The ally pilot that mistakenly killed 10 innocent French people is just as repulsive as the SS officer who gased x numbner of jews...:rolleyes:
Also a suicide bomber does not value the most sacred thing on earth life, this is what is so dangerous about Islamic extremism, they dont see life on earth like the rest see it, so they are quite willing to kill themselves in the process of killing 100... Logistically that is also much much harder to stop than x country attacking x country.

What has Europe done to be "partially responsible" for the terrorist attacks? on a lighter note what did the Danish authors do to justify their lives being threaten? what did denmark do to have their products boycotted and their embassies destroyed?

kapranos
03-24-2007, 05:40 PM
zico :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

guille&tati4life
03-24-2007, 06:45 PM
I incorrectly pointed out western society, what I meant to say which I must of said it was western values, ie. freedom of speech,religion etc. The west saw many atrocities commited as well.

What was the goal in that massacre? was it to kill thousands of innocent people because they where innocent, didnt they debate the war for over a year, until congress gave the president the power to go to war? If you cant see the difference between those two very very different actions then youre severly misguided, also its been islamic terrorist who have killed most civilians, not the US, why didnt South Corea break into civil war during the wrongful American intervention there? why?

Western society is very much hypocritical yes, and I wrongly use the term but western ideals those that came in the age of enlightenment, where for the first time individual rights where recognized those are vastly, vastly superior to any theocracy out there, and most western countries still defend individual rights on some level, again if you cant see the defference between England, America, France and Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan, then you either hate those western values or your ignorant. So western society as much as it has done bad things is still just by virtue of what it still protects and holds "sacred" superior to Islam, apperantly you dont see that...


Considering the hatred of jews in the muslim world, and in fact the support the muslim world gave nazi Germany, I wouldnt say both books are far off, in fact I woudl say the Koran is more dangerous, because Mein Kampf is rightly recognized as the ramblings of a mad man, the Koran which is pretty much the same thing, the ramblings of a crazy guy in 600bc, but the book is considered holy and is immune from criticism.
Islam has nto killed Europe, but Europe is letting islam slowly get a strong foothold in Euope, here is a book which I have not read but probably will its called While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within (http://www.amazon.com/While-Europe-Slept-Radical-Destroying/dp/0385514727/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-4661250-0503958?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174752744&sr=8-1)
From Publishers Weekly
Having recently published an indictment of Christian fundamentalist intolerance in the U.S. (Stealing Jesus), New York native Bawer relocated to Europe with his Norwegian partner in 1998 and found an even more dangerous strain of religious and cultural bigotry ensnaring Western Europe. A swarming menace called radical Islam, he writes, rings Europe's cities in smoldering Muslim ghettos, provoking everything from so-called honor killings and political assassinations to the Madrid subway bombings and the massacre of school children in Beslan. Worse, the Taliban-like theocracy Bawer sees looming inside backward immigrant populations resistant to integration flourishes under the protective wing of Western Europe's America-bashing, multicultural, liberal establishment.:worship: The latter correspond to the appeasers of Nazi Germany, in Bawer's view, since he believes that radical Islamism is every bit the threat to Western civilization that Nazism was. He scoffs at talk of "understanding" or "dialogue," indeed, at any but the most muscular response hitching Europe ever tighter to the U.S. war on terror. His clash-of-civilizations outlook means real issues often get washed away by sweeping statements designed to tar Europe's Muslims with one irredeemably hostile, welfare-sponging brush, while trading in well-worn stereotypes about virtuous American "realists" and corrupt European "idealists." thinking ahead before you and others accuse the author of being a republican fundamentalist here is just the 1st sentence from the next review: Bruce Bawer, who has wrestled previously about American fundamentalism (Stealing Jesus) and gay rights (A Place at the Table), finds an equally contentious and compelling subject in the blind eye of European liberalism.

Like I said I have nto read the book but I imagine it would be a good place to start for those who dont see a threat in Islam.


The judge was overruled, should of been fired actulally, but like I said there are many many more stories like this throughout Euerope, this was just one example and thankfully there are still some sane people left in Germany that quickly overturned the decision(I wouldn't of been surprised if the decision would of not been overturned).

You cant see a difference between a suicide bomber and x soldier killing another soldier in war, or mistakenly killing an innocent civilian? :rolleyes: yes off course, The ally pilot that mistakenly killed 10 innocent French people is just as repulsive as the SS officer who gased x numbner of jews...:rolleyes:
Also a suicide bomber does not value the most sacred thing on earth life, this is what is so dangerous about Islamic extremism, they dont see life on earth like the rest see it, so they are quite willing to kill themselves in the process of killing 100... Logistically that is also much much harder to stop than x country attacking x country.

What has Europe done to be "partially responsible" for the terrorist attacks? on a lighter note what did the Danish authors do to justify their lives being threaten? what did denmark do to have their products boycotted and their embassies destroyed?

I don't have time to reply to everything just now, though i'm sure i will at some point :p but i'm just a bit annoyed with something in this post and wanted to make my position clear.

I can see a difference between accidental deaths and intentional deaths. I don't much care however if someone is willing to kill themselves while killing others or not. I just meant that suicide bombings are just as bad as other ways of intentionally killing mass numbers of people. If an Islamic extremist blows himself up in a cafe and kills many people i see it as no worse a crime than if someone walks into the cafe and shoots the people in it whilst trying to survive himself.

My original post was perhaps not clear enough :o but i certainly see a difference between intentional murders and accidental ones.

zicofirol
03-24-2007, 06:58 PM
I don't have time to reply to everything just now, though i'm sure i will at some point :p but i'm just a bit annoyed with something in this post and wanted to make my position clear.

I can see a difference between accidental deaths and intentional deaths. I don't much care however if someone is willing to kill themselves while killing others or not. I just meant that suicide bombings are just as bad as other ways of intentionally killing mass numbers of people. If an Islamic extremist blows himself up in a cafe and kills many people i see it as no worse a crime than if someone walks into the cafe and shoots the people in it whilst trying to survive himself.

My original post was perhaps not clear enough :o but i certainly see a difference between intentional murders and accidental ones.
Oh, I misunderstood, I think others did aswell, the only difference between a mass murderer and a suicide bomber, is the suicide bomber doesnt even value his on life so stopping him is much more difficult because the threat of (we will kill you) no longer works with them, that is why in a fight with the islamofascist terrorist is especially hard... it was like fighting kamikazes in WWII...

Jim Jones
03-24-2007, 07:34 PM
She shouldn't :shrug:

:eek: So, over the years you don't think that 1000s of Iraquis have been killed as a result of western actions? That's contrary to things at least in the news. Maybe western killings are secondary i'd just be very surprised if they hadn't made it to 1000 kills yet.
Tony Blair told Britain that they were going to war with Iraq cos they had weapons of mass destruction (i think that's a bad reason) that fits their theory. When they found there were none, he claimed that they'd actually gone in because Saddam is evil. This leads me to question why they don't invade many other countries.

You make it sound as if the west is the aggressor and the poor Iraqis are the victims. It is a little more complicated then that. Yes I guess 1000s of Iraqis died due to fighting between western forces and Iraqi insurgents. But now most of the killing is local which did not begin after U.S. invasion but existed ever since the creation of Iraq after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

Also you seem to forget that Afghanistan was invaded. Haiti had U.S. troops there to boot out Arisitide. Liberia had U.S. troops to boot out Charles Taylor. Serbia was bombed which created instability in area and helped topple Milosevic. All those were invasions. U.S. also supports African troops toppling Somalian Islamists. and may have provided the ethiopians with weapons. So I fail to see how only one nation was invaded here. Problem is there is a surplus of attention on Iraq and people tend to forget about U.S. policy towards other nations.

mtw
03-26-2007, 01:46 PM
While I do that, maybe you can follow basic English lessons?


Sorry, bloke, but I have no interest in English lessons. German is much nicer and more difficult. I learnt Swedish in the last time. There are so many nice states and languages in Europe, not only UK.
And what about elections in Poland. I do not make such mistake, as during last elections. I think, that these people failed and they will make still the same mistakes. They have no chances in future.

Neely
03-26-2007, 07:32 PM
A huge mistake of this judge, but it was only one of a whole series of such rulings lately. Clear murders were sometimes not prosecuted as killings, but only as manslaughter if they were so-called "honour killings" with Islamic background and with muslim people involved.

The only good thing is that the decision was overruled later. And as Jim Jones said, the judge should face more consequences than she will, but some professions are better protected than others.

And some other good comments. Yes, Islam is the fastest growing religion, this is also true for Germany and also Germans converted to Islam. I think I heard a number some time ago that in about 35-40 years as many Muslims will live in Germany as followers of other religions.

Jogy
03-27-2007, 12:00 AM
I think the Islamists have already too many rights in foreign countries!

What do you think are the chances that Christians are allowed to build a Christian church in an Islamic country? Does this even exist or would be tolerated?

In most European countries where many Islamists are living they take it for sure that this normal that they have their religious buildings. I would like to see it the other way how much they tolerate another religion!

mtw
03-27-2007, 01:59 PM
I think the Islamists have already too many rights in foreign countries!

What do you think are the chances that Christians are allowed to build a Christian church in an Islamic country? Does this even exist or would be tolerated?

In most European countries where many Islamists are living they take it for sure that this normal that they have their religious buildings. I would like to see it the other way how much they tolerate another religion!

I think, that it is not true. There are Muslims states with Churchs of another confesions.
We should not attack Muslims in such way. It is not nice. We are aggressors in their states. Poland should withdrew our troops from Iraq. Romania wants to withdrew their army till october 2007. We should make it too.

Jogy
03-28-2007, 02:53 PM
I think, that it is not true. There are Muslims states with Churchs of another confesions.
I did not know, that is why I was asking. I am surprised to hear that.

We should not attack Muslims in such way. It is not nice. We are aggressors in their states. Poland should withdrew our troops from Iraq. Romania wants to withdrew their army till october 2007. We should make it too.
I did not talk about troops or so, of course they are aggressors, but I thought more speaking of the people who are peaceful, maybe living with their familiy because of the job or so.


Another thing that makes me wonder is that some Muslims think they have every right in a foreign country that is not Islamic. I mean with what right do they want to go to a court and want their daughter excused from swimming lessons at school because she may not show so much skin to wear a swimming suit or so? Or with what right do they want to fight against school laws that forbit that you wear a cap or something that covers your head during lesson only because their daughters must wear a full body coat (I don't know right word) because of religion?

After all, they should respect the law of the country they are in it and if the state is giving laws for the state schools, they should respect the laws or go to a private muslim school with other laws.

That is my opinion on it, when I go to another country I must also do some things and take caring that I do behave to customs or rules not to upset people much.

Action Jackson
03-28-2007, 02:59 PM
Dumb ruling and if some country is generous enough to give an opportunity to you as an immigrant, then the very least that should be done is respect the laws of that particular land.

It's not easy initially with the culture shock and the like, but got to make the effort to the language as well, this can be done without forgetting your own culture and not go there just to take the cash and piss on the locals. Then it goes both ways as well, some things should be universal and not need some code written in a book how to love your life.

mtw
03-28-2007, 05:03 PM
I did not know, that is why I was asking. I am surprised to hear that.


I did not talk about troops or so, of course they are aggressors, but I thought more speaking of the people who are peaceful, maybe living with their familiy because of the job or so.


Another thing that makes me wonder is that some Muslims think they have every right in a foreign country that is not Islamic. I mean with what right do they want to go to a court and want their daughter excused from swimming lessons at school because she may not show so much skin to wear a swimming suit or so? Or with what right do they want to fight against school laws that forbit that you wear a cap or something that covers your head during lesson only because their daughters must wear a full body coat (I don't know right word) because of religion?

After all, they should respect the law of the country they are in it and if the state is giving laws for the state schools, they should respect the laws or go to a private muslim school with other laws.

That is my opinion on it, when I go to another country I must also do some things and take caring that I do behave to customs or rules not to upset people much.

We have catholic and christian missions in some islamic states.
I think, that their faith is connected with their culture. Arabian conservative Muslims and conservative Jews have common culture. The women have no much rights in confessional states. But we can not make anything against it. It is their culture.
I saw a documentary film on Planete. It was a film about situation of homosexual men in Israel. A Rabbi said, that according to religious laws it should be punished by death. And some Jewish women have problems with divorce ( these women were hit by their husbands, but they have terrible problems with divorce, because Rabbis did not give the permission, because they were women. Men have another laws. You must consider, that these women agree with it.
Women have no laws in Christian states in the past ( in the middle age and practically till XX century ). Now the state is secular, that s why women have more rights in Europe and other countries. But I think, that situation of women in the past in Europe was alike situation of Arabian or Jewish women in their states. For instance Luther said, that ,,man has tight hip and wide shoulder and thats why he can decide and rule ( or soemthing alike ) and woman has wide hip and thight shoulder and thats why she should sit at home". I think, that many men agree with this opinion even today. It is terrible and pathethic.