Has Nole had an easy ride to the top10? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Has Nole had an easy ride to the top10?

mark_s
03-20-2007, 10:59 AM
Nole seems to of had some serious luck recently with his draws but generally has he been lucky with getting to the top10? Sure he probably deserves to be there soon but has he actually proven he should be there right now?

Murray has already proven he is top10 material by beating almost everyone there but Nole hasn't even played against Roddick, Davydenko or Blake and neither has he beaten Ljubicic.

tripb19
03-20-2007, 11:02 AM
It's clown era remember?

Everyone gets an easy ride to the Top Ten. Hell, I could be Top Ten tomorrow if I wanted but I'd rather remain anonymous and not be called a clown.

Action Jackson
03-20-2007, 11:02 AM
Seems someone is jealous that Djokovic got to the top 10 quicker than Murray did? Yes, Djokovic bought all the points at the discount supermarket and they were good enough to make the top 10.

So when did Murray beat Nadal?

Bring on the clown era.

Byrd
03-20-2007, 11:05 AM
One side of the argument you could say he has achieved it by taking his chances when opportunities arose such as indian wells, and qualifying for tournaments earlier in his career so he could get to where he has. But also if you look at most of his success' like the MM tournaments and Indian wells for example he never played any 'good' players, and when he does he usually loses e.g. Lost twice to Fed and Youzhny this year and Nadal in the IW finals.

mark_s
03-20-2007, 11:08 AM
Seems someone is jealous that Djokovic got to the top 10 quicker than Murray did?
Yes and rightly so! :D

CmonAussie
03-20-2007, 11:08 AM
***
Maybe a little fortunate to crack the Top-10 so soon but nobody can doubt Nole`s talent~>> he`ll definitely be a contender for #1 a few years down the track!!

#Murray seems to be more of a fighter but his overall game isn`t as smooth~~ anyway it doesn`t matter because both Djokovic & Murray will be firmly within the Top-10 by year`s end [expect them to both be present at TMC Shanghai!!]..

Vin Judah
03-20-2007, 11:08 AM
One side of the argument you could say he has achieved it by taking his chances when opportunities arose such as indian wells, and qualifying for tournaments earlier in his career so he could get to where he has. But also if you look at most of his success' like the MM tournaments and Indian wells for example he never played any 'good' players, and when he does he usually loses e.g. Lost twice to Fed and Youzhny this year and Nadal in the IW finals.

and what do you mean by good players? here you are saying that murray should deserve to be in top 10. wouldnt that make murray a good player? and djokovic beat him last week..

... so i really dont get your point here... :rolleyes:

mark_s
03-20-2007, 11:11 AM
and djokovic beat him last week..
Yes, injured.

After the match Murray said his decision to play on was "unprofessional". Murray couldn't move very well and that is one of the biggest assets of his game.

I can't guarantee you enough that Murray will have a decent h2h record against Nole in a few years. Both times Murray has played Nole is whilst he was no where near his best. Quite unfortunate.

Action Jackson
03-20-2007, 11:12 AM
Murray got all the WCs thrown at him early in his career and Djokovic didn't get those handouts, but that is more a question of how nationality can help in these situations.

Djokovic has done well at the Slams and has made a QF, something Murray hasn't done as of yet. It doesn't matter as they will both be there at the same time in the near future.

Byrd
03-20-2007, 11:13 AM
and what do you mean by good players? here you are saying that murray should deserve to be in top 10. wouldnt that make murray a good player? and djokovic beat him last week..

... so i really dont get your point here... :rolleyes:

When did I ever say Murray was a good player in this thread and deserved to be in the top10? :rolleyes:

Also by 'good' players I mean players that are actually have a good consistent baseline games, guccione, massu and melzer aren't in this category, those are the players he had in his finals in all the MMs he won, hence the other side of the argument.

Deivid23
03-20-2007, 11:14 AM
:retard:

mashamaniac
03-20-2007, 11:18 AM
Is It Because He Didn't Want To Play For Britain?? Or You Really Hate Him?? Whatever He Is Or Even If He's Now There With Luck He's Been So Better Than Murray Who's Waiting For Another Player To Remain A Top 15! By Winning A Bunch Of Battles With Arod He Thought Has Become A Better Player?? Nole Definitely Deserves To Be There!

mashamaniac
03-20-2007, 11:21 AM
Murray got all the WCs thrown at him early in his career and Djokovic didn't get those handouts, but that is more a question of how nationality can help in these situations.

Djokovic has done well at the Slams and has made a QF, something Murray hasn't done as of yet. It doesn't matter as they will both be there at the same time in the near future.

yes absolutely right!:) if there were no WC for andy murray right now he wouldn't have been even a top 50er

ljubicic_
03-20-2007, 11:21 AM
and neither has he beaten Ljubicic.[/QUOTE]


You're saying with this sentence just like Ljubo is the black sheep in the top 10 but can i remind you that if Ljubo is so weak and shouldn't belong in the top 10 than Murray also shouldn't belong in the top 10 cause Ljubo beated him in the Doha final, easily!

my0118
03-20-2007, 11:22 AM
Well sometimes it is needed to not only play consistently but have luck when it comes to a breakthrough. Nole certainly hasn't played that much against "good players" on his way to reach top 10. That is his luck. Even if his luck had still existed, he could've missed his chance, but he took it. That is his consistency.
However, although he's reached top 10 currently, we never know in the future. We should aware that Hewitt and Safin reached No.1 in ther world quicker than Roger.
One more thing, right now there are so many jokes in the top 10. But I won't count Nole is one of them even though sometimes I call him Joke only because I don't like him :lol:

mark_s
03-20-2007, 11:22 AM
Is It Because He Didn't Want To Play For Britain?? Or You Really Hate Him?? Whatever He Is Or Even If He's Now There With Luck He's Been So Better Than Murray Who's Waiting For Another Player To Remain A Top 15! By Winning A Bunch Of Battles With Arod He Thought Has Become A Better Player?? Nole Definitely Deserves To Be There!
Actually, let me pleasantly surprise you... I actually very much like Nole and his personality. He's quite a charming guy and is good friends with Murray.

And regarding the British thing, from when it was first reported about I was absolutely against it. You'll probably find most British tennis fans are against the idea of having someone from another nationality represent us.

Action Jackson
03-20-2007, 11:27 AM
yes absolutely right!:) if there were no WC for andy murray right now he wouldn't have been even a top 50er

Not necessarily that, but it seems the OP is practicing selective memory. Djokovic qualifed for his 1st 3 Slams and got in directly at the US Open at the 4th one.

Murray was good enough to make it this is clear, but in those early stages he got a lot of assistance.

mashamaniac
03-20-2007, 11:29 AM
Actually, let me pleasantly surprise you... I actually very much like Nole and his personality. He's quite a charming guy and is good friends with Murray.

And regarding the British thing, from when it was first reported about I was absolutely against it. You'll probably find most British tennis fans are against the idea of having someone from another nationality represent us.

yeah,nole is so charming guy and maybe good friend with andy! but th thing is his tennis is also better than murray...i actually tell you that andy is a step or two behind all his peers! nadal,nole,gasquet,maybe a bit ahead of monfils but again behind berdych! sorry if that annoys you!:)

DDrago2
03-20-2007, 11:32 AM
Everyone has easy ride to top10 these days. But remaining there for longer than few years is a real deal. So this is far to soon to comment on Nole like this

mark_s
03-20-2007, 11:33 AM
yeah,nole is so charming guy and maybe good friend with andy! but th thing is his tennis is also better than murray...i actually tell you that andy is a step or two behind all his peers! nadal,nole,gasquet,maybe a bit ahead of monfils but again behind berdych! sorry if that annoys you!:)
That's ok. I didn't find it annoying because I know most people will disagree he is "a step or two behind all his peers".

Regarding Nole being a better player... that's obviously debatable. Personally I'm convinced in a few years time Murray will have a very good head2head record against him. I hope you're proven severely wrong :)

mashamaniac
03-20-2007, 11:37 AM
Not necessarily that, but it seems the OP is practicing selective memory. Djokovic qualifed for his 1st 3 Slams and got in directly at the US Open at the 4th one.

Murray was good enough to make it this is clear, but in those early stages he got a lot of assistance.

and actually besides that murray got 3 wcs in january of last year which obviously worthed him an AO wc too...plus he got a lot of support by british tennis to play in many futurs and challenger events in the world and those helpings took his rank from i.e. 10000 to 80! and now to 12:cool: but what about nole?? has serbian tennis helped him as much as british??:wavey:

mashamaniac
03-20-2007, 11:40 AM
That's ok. I didn't find it annoying because I know most people will disagree he is "a step or two behind all his peers".

Regarding Nole being a better player... that's obviously debatable. Personally I'm convinced in a few years time Murray will have a very good head2head record against him. I hope you're proven severely wrong :)

well,who'd disagree with that?? since he's lost to gasquet,nadal,monfils,nole and until he's not reached a GS's QF even his region's GS!! nobody will expect him to be a step or two ahead!!:confused:

richie21
03-20-2007, 11:49 AM
Nole seems to of had some serious luck recently with his draws but generally has he been lucky with getting to the top10? Sure he probably deserves to be there soon but has he actually proven he should be there right now?

Murray has already proven he is top10 material by beating almost everyone there but Nole hasn't even played against Roddick, Davydenko or Blake and neither has he beaten Ljubicic.

i totally agree with all you said.
Murray has been more impressive than Djokovic until now for me

All_Slam_Andre
03-20-2007, 11:54 AM
It's tough to separate the two at moment. Murray has a much better record than Nole against the big name players. But Nole unlike Murray has reached a grand slam quarter-final and masters series final. I would say that they are pretty much even right now.

Action Jackson
03-20-2007, 11:58 AM
and actually besides that murray got 3 wcs in january of last year which obviously worthed him an AO wc too...plus he got a lot of support by british tennis to play in many futurs and challenger events in the world and those helpings took his rank from i.e. 10000 to 80! and now to 12:cool: but what about nole?? has serbian tennis helped him as much as british??:wavey:

mark is just a jealous fanboy in reality. Of course he hasn't bothered to address the comments about the difference in WCs and the way they made their progress on tour.

Then again to say Murray didn't get the benefit of WC's early in his career is like saying the Earth doesn't spin around the sun 365 1/4 days a year and 366 in leap years.

As I said before Murray would have made it anyway, he just got a lot help from exterior parties.

my0118
03-20-2007, 12:06 PM
this thread should've been made after their career is over.

Kolya
03-20-2007, 12:10 PM
No not really, Nole has earned the points winning tournaments... and doing well in bigger tourneys...

Both are quite similar...

scoobs
03-20-2007, 12:21 PM
I decided to take a fact-based approach to this question and compared their records against the 1-5 ranked players, 6-10 ranked players and 11-20 ranked players (based on their opponent's ranking at the time of the match)

Against the top 5

Murray 7-7 (wins over Federer, Roddick, Ljubicic, Davydenko)
Djokovic 0-8 (includes 4x Federer, 2x Nadal)


Against the 6-10 players

Murray 1-2 (win over Haas, loss to Blake, Davydenko)
Djokovic 4-4 (wins over Puerta, Gonzalez, Robredo x2)

Against the 11-20 players

Murray 6-9 (losses inc. Nalbandian, Gonzalez, Baghdatis - wins inc Gonzalez, Hewitt, Stepanek, Ferrer)
Djokovic 4-3 (wins Murray x2, Ferrer, Nieminen, losses, Hrbaty, Hewitt, Gonzalez)


Totals:

Murray 32 matches against top 20 opponents
Djokovic 23 matches against top 20 opponents

Murray 17 matches against top 10 opponents
Djokovic 16 matches against top 10 opponents

Murray 14 matches against top 5 opponents
Djokovic 8 matches against top 5 opponents.

So it's fair to say based on the facts, that Murray has played more matches against the top players, especially against top 5 opposition, and has a much better record against the top 10 (8-9 vs 4-12) and top 20 (14-18 vs 8-15). Djokovic has never beaten a top 5 player.

Murray has also played each of the current top 20 at least once with the exception of Youzhny and Ferrero.

Djokovic has yet to play Baghdatis, Berdych, Nalbandian, Blake, Davydenko or Roddick.

However, it has to be pointed out that Djokovic has played Federer and Nadal more than Murray (4x Federer, 2x Nadal) vs (2x Federer, 1x Nadal) so he's had 6 meetings with the top 2, compared to Murray's 3.

It also should be said, and has above, that Murray did have the advantage of a kick-start with wildcards into events like Queens, Wimbledon, Washington, and the quallies of the US Open in 05. Djokovic had little, if any, wildcards and has had to scrap his way right up on his own merits.

So while you can say that perhaps Djokovic has had a slightly easier time getting to where he is compared to Murray in terms of their encounters with the top players, it's mitigated by the fact he's played the top 2 players much more, which necessarily stopped his progress in events, and he had a harder time to get into the position of pushing towards the top 10 than Murray, who had a few useful helping hands to make that leap into the top echelons.

As has also been pointed out, Djokovic has made the QFs of a slam and the F of a TMS, while Murray has made a couple of R4s and a couple of SFs at equivalent level. Djokovic also has 3 titles to Murray's 2. So far, Djokovic has climbed higher in the events - he's been able to convert his successes better.

FanofFederer
03-20-2007, 12:29 PM
You know the ranks at the lower end of the top ten are thin when jokes like Robredo and Djokovic can make it in.

Jaap
03-20-2007, 12:52 PM
Djokovic = New Davydenko.

Saumon
03-20-2007, 12:54 PM
Djokovic = New Davydenko.

he has more hair :shrug:

Wait! :eek: don't tell me Nole will be the next to be scalped by Kolya! :unsure: :crying2:

Maya_4
03-20-2007, 01:01 PM
:ras: :nerner: to all you haters!

Nole is in top 10 and there is nothing you can do about that!:p

:worship: N O L E:worship: :bounce: AJDE:bounce:

mark_s
03-20-2007, 01:02 PM
mark is just a jealous fanboy in reality. Of course he hasn't bothered to address the comments about the difference in WCs and the way they made their progress on tour.
Yeah, I'm jealouse... I already said that in an earlier post.

And you're right, of course I didn't consider the WC's... that's why this thread is in the form of a question you numpty. I didn't do the research hence why I asked the question.

A huge thanks to 'scoobsuk' for his research.

Jelena_78
03-20-2007, 01:22 PM
When did I ever say Murray was a good player in this thread and deserved to be in the top10? :rolleyes:

Also by 'good' players I mean players that are actually have a good consistent baseline games, guccione, massu and melzer aren't in this category, those are the players he had in his finals in all the MMs he won, hence the other side of the argument.

I guess Robredo,Gonzalez,Haas,...are GOOD players,
so your argument is really :rolleyes:
Nole deserved it,out of question!
Nobody gave him anything,he worked hard,improved a lot,and took his chances! :clap2:

ezekiel
03-20-2007, 01:24 PM
I only wish Nole gets to play Roddick, Davydenko , Ljubicic because they are there for the taking.

R.Federer
03-20-2007, 02:38 PM
Murray got all the WCs thrown at him early in his career and Djokovic didn't get those handouts, but that is more a question of how nationality can help in these situations.

Djokovic has done well at the Slams and has made a QF, something Murray hasn't done as of yet. It doesn't matter as they will both be there at the same time in the near future.

Murray did indeed get help. But you have to be good enough to make use of them, which he is. Beating Hewitt and Roddick back to back, beating Roddick on grass and beating Federer in Cincy were great accomplishments. And no one expected those.
The WCs have been dished out to him, but lets say but Donald Young for example is very very far from Top 10.

Merton
03-20-2007, 03:13 PM
There is no such thing as an easy ride to the top-10. As for the question of who will have greater success against the top players between Nole and Andy, it is too soon to tell at this point. Murray will soon enter the top-10 too, the fact that Nole did it first is irrelevant with respect to the big picture.

Kitty de Sade
03-20-2007, 03:15 PM
There is no such thing as an easy ride to the top-10. As for the question of who will have greater success against the top players between Nole and Andy, it is too soon to tell at this point. Murray will soon enter the top-10 too, the fact that Nole did it first is irrelevant with respect to the big picture.


:yeah: To get there, you still have to actually win matches. Nole took his chances, and deserves to be there.

Andy will soon be there too, and the story will be told then.

Saumon
03-20-2007, 03:20 PM
The sad truth is Nole had to sleep his way to the top10. :awww: The most painful moments were when he slept with Hewitt and Disney... for different reasons. :o

He is easy. :shrug:

Action Jackson
03-20-2007, 03:21 PM
Yeah, I'm jealouse... I already said that in an earlier post.

And you're right, of course I didn't consider the WC's... that's why this thread is in the form of a question you numpty. I didn't do the research hence why I asked the question.

A huge thanks to 'scoobsuk' for his research.

What was the point of this thread exactly? It was to bitch that Djokovic got to the top 10 before Murray, while leaving out certain info which scoobs accounted for. In other words you were being lazy fanboy.

Martin
03-20-2007, 03:21 PM
Djokovic is an excellent player and will be in the top 10 for many years to come, however he has had good fortune on his way there.

He's won a couple of lower tournaments, whilst only really making an impression in three other events - last year's French Open when he beat Haas and Gonzalez, the quarters in Madrid when he should have again beaten Gonzalez, then Indian Wells. He was lucky with circumstances in Indian Wells with all the seeds around him losing and then playing a 50% fit Murray in the semis.

It'll become more interesting over the year when he plays against the top guys to see whether he can win these matches or not.

scoobs
03-20-2007, 03:23 PM
When you stop to think about how much effort has gone in from these players, usually from before they even got into double figures in years learning the basics of the game as young children, improving, playing local tournaments, playing under 12s, under 14s, juniors, then grinding up through the futures circuit, getting into qualifying for challengers, then into challengers by right, then qualifying for ATP level events, then getting in there by rights, then be able to play the TMS events, winning a couple of rounds at slams, playing against the world #1 for the first time...well, it makes a mockery of the idea that there's such a thing as an easy ride to the top 10.

scoobs
03-20-2007, 03:29 PM
There have been many players over the years who have made it to the top 10 but then have not been able to stay there for more than 5 minutes. Getting there is good, but staying there and getting higher is perhaps more important. It remains to be seen if Djokovic can take his game to the next level and beat his fellow top 10 players consistently, and keep those in the top 20 at bay. If he can, he will be there for a long time.

rafagirlno1
03-20-2007, 03:32 PM
When you stop to think about how much effort has gone in from these players, usually from before they even got into double figures in years, playing under 12s, under 14s, juniors, then grinding up through the futures circuit, getting into qualifying for challengers, then into challengers by right, then qualifying for ATP level events, then getting in there by rights, then be able to play the TMS events, winning a couple of rounds at slams, playing against the world #1 for the first time...well, it makes a mockery of the idea that there's such a thing as an easy ride to the top 10.

:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:
absolutely sopt on .i think everyone deserves whtever much they earn in life and nothing in this life is so easy . all these players like robredo , lubicic ,all of them deserve respect for the position they hold because it takes years and years of hardwork for getting there :wavey:

mark_s
03-20-2007, 03:33 PM
What was the point of this thread exactly? It was to bitch that Djokovic got to the top 10 before Murray, while leaving out certain info which scoobs accounted for. In other words you were being lazy fanboy.
The point of this thread is pretty obvious... for me to find out opinions on whether Nole may of got to the top10 more easily than most.

The purpose of this thread was to get informative replies like scoob's... replies like that help me make my mind up.

And yes, maybe I am a lazy "fanboy", I didn't do the research myself after all :)

ezekiel
03-20-2007, 03:39 PM
Nole got to top 100 first, then top 10 first, then #1 in a year or 2 first of course. :)
Andy Murray looks like he needs someone to hold his hand and carry him gently into the mens world. And no excuses with injuries, I mean Nole got injured in the final last year and many other times he had to quit because of real injuries and remember USO 05 against Monfils where he was falling because of heat and still won , he is a competitor , you can't teach that no matter what coach you pick up

scoobs
03-20-2007, 03:47 PM
I think apart from the factual observations, that is a bit of a nonsense post, ezekiel. It is fatuous to suggest a player who is has such a strong record as Murray against the very best in the game, needs help into the mens world or is not a competitor. You wandered very firmly into the realm of personal opinions there and completely ignored the factual evidence.

ezekiel
03-20-2007, 03:50 PM
Murray did indeed get help. But you have to be good enough to make use of them, which he is. Beating Hewitt and Roddick back to back, beating Roddick on grass and beating Federer in Cincy were great accomplishments. And no one expected those.
The WCs have been dished out to him, but lets say but Donald Young for example is very very far from Top 10.
Most of Andy's big victories have been tainted by circumstances
1)Roddick on grass lost to James Blake on grass the week before and didn't look good doint it
2)Federer played worse against Murray than Canas last week. He was dead tired and would have lost to anyone except Roddick of course ;)

scoobs
03-20-2007, 03:53 PM
What about the other two times Murray beat Roddick? Were they tainted by circumstances too? How about beating Davydenko and Haas back to back last week? What about Davydenko in Doha? Or Ljubicic in Madrid? Or Gonzalez at the US Open.

I'm sorry, your opinions don't stand up to scrutiny. You could easily say the same about Djokovic's win over Murray last week. For some of us, though, the result is what counts, not the circumstances surrounding it and we don't make the excuses or try to put litte *s against particular results.

jazar
03-20-2007, 03:54 PM
he has had an easier run, but he isnt that exeriecenced against other players of similar ranking, i.e. the top 20. so i can see him dropping out of the 10 fairly soon. but once he gets more experience against top 20 players then he will improve and merit his spot at the top

Blue Heart24
03-20-2007, 03:58 PM
What a stupid question :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Of course not."Easy ride" to the top 10 doesn't exist.

tangerine_dream
03-20-2007, 05:14 PM
Nole seems to of had some serious luck recently with his draws but generally has he been lucky with getting to the top10? Sure he probably deserves to be there soon but has he actually proven he should be there right now?
Might you be a tad annoyed that Djokovic made it to the top ten before your megahyped boy Murray? ;)

As Roddick has said, if it were that easy, everybody would be doing it. :)

sondraj06
03-20-2007, 05:27 PM
How come whenever people don't think a player is as good as another player on this board (Nadal) or if they don't like that player, all of a sudden all his achievements are worthless.

It was a cakewalk draw

If he had played so and so he wouldn't of won

He got lucky

I mean really maybe you all who were soooo against RR need to rethink your position about knock out matches because yall always find some excuse to diminish a players accomplishments.

The fact of the matter is if Murray had beat Haas a little more convincingly and not been falling all over himself during that match, maybe he wouldn't have been a bumbling idiot all over court and not have injured his ankle

Nole got where he is because he got there, No if, ands or buts about it.

Murray has a tendency to struggle when he plays players in the top 10 and it makes his game look really weak. Now he can work on that while keeping his eyes on the prize. until then he has to marinate in the fact that this was a lost opportunity for him and nole snatched it up.

I swear from the way tennis fans on this board talk, you'd think tennis was a sport purely based on luck, not skill.

And I'm starting to think it is

scoobs
03-20-2007, 05:31 PM
How come whenever people don't think a player is as good as another player on this board (Nadal) or if they don't like that player, all of a sudden all his achievements are worthless.

It was a cakewalk draw

If he had played so and so he wouldn't of won

He got lucky

I mean really maybe you all who were soooo against RR need to rethink your position about knock out matches because yall always find some excuse to diminish a players accomplishments.

The fact of the matter is if Murray had beat Haas a little more convincingly and not been falling all over himself during that match, maybe he wouldn't have been a bumbling idiot all over court and not have injured his ankle

Nole got where he is because he got there, No if, ands or buts about it.

Murray has a tendency to struggle when he plays players in the top 10 and it makes his game look really weak. Now he can work on that while keeping his eyes on the prize. until then he has to marinate in the fact that this was a lost opportunity for him and nole snatched it up.

I swear from the way tennis fans on this board talk, you'd think tennis was a sport purely based on luck, not skill.

And I'm starting to think it is
Hmm - and yet he's still 8-9 against the top 10, compared to Djokovic's 4-12

Methinks Djokovic struggles more against the top 10 than Murray, evidently.

Even if you take Federer and Nadal out of the occasion, Murray is still 7-7 while Djokovic is 4-6

Mistaflava
03-20-2007, 05:32 PM
Nole is a TOP 10 imposter...won't last

sondraj06
03-20-2007, 05:34 PM
Hmm - and yet he's still 8-9 against the top 10, compared to Djokovic's 4-12

Methinks Djokovic struggles more against the top 10 than Murray, evidently.

Even if you take Federer and Nadal out of the occasion, Murray is still 7-7 while Djokovic is 4-6

Murray plays top ten and he inks out a win, while looking very unfit doing it. That's why he hurt his ankle going for shots that are unnatural to him. Nole looked a lot more convincing against rafa to me out there. I don't think murray would stand a chance against rafa playing like he did at AO if he meet rafa at IW

scoobs
03-20-2007, 05:36 PM
Murray plays top ten and he inks out a win, while looking very unfit doing it. That's why he hurt his ankle going for shots that are unnatural to him. Nole looked a lot more convincing against rafa to me out there. I don't think murray would stand a chance against rafa playing like he did at AO if he meet rafa at IW
Opinion.

Try dealing at least in *some facts* - just for the new experience.

sondraj06
03-20-2007, 05:37 PM
Opinion.

Try dealing at least in *some facts* - just for the new experience.

Of course it's my opinion genius, who elses opinion would it be, my moms

scoobs
03-20-2007, 05:41 PM
Of course it's my opinion genius, who elses opinion would it be, my moms
You could try an analysis that has a factual base, rather than just whatever foaming scum surfaces on the top of your mind at any given moment.

If your "analysis" is to be taken seriously, it's better to lose in straight sets to Rafa than to lose in a final set, and it's better to lose to top 10 players rather than defeat them "while looking unfit" - whatever that means.

sondraj06
03-20-2007, 05:46 PM
You could try an analysis that has a factual base, rather than just whatever foaming scum surfaces on the top of your mind at any given moment.

If your "analysis" is to be taken seriously, it's better to lose in straight sets to Rafa than to lose in a final set, and it's better to lose to top 10 players rather than defeat them "while looking unfit" - whatever that means.

For all the Murray supporters who go on and on about his game I think the way he wins those games are very important seeing as how he isn't the one in the top ten as if right now.

So the facts say that Murray is better than Nole when it comes to beating players in the top ten, right, well that's funny because their rankings don't show that. Their rankings show that Nole is in the top ten and Murray is not.

So what do your facts say about that.

I think Nole is where he is because he got there and more convincingly than Murray would have. Where as Murray needs to work on fitness and pulling his game together.

Maybe he can reflect on that while sitting outside the top ten for a moment

Jaap
03-20-2007, 05:48 PM
Djokovic will never win a masters or a grand slam. 100%, he's a mug.

BlakeorHenman
03-20-2007, 05:55 PM
Yes, it was easy.

Yes, he earned it.

BlakeorHenman
03-20-2007, 06:00 PM
For all the Murray supporters who go on and on about his game I think the way he wins those games are very important seeing as how he isn't the one in the top ten as if right now.

So the facts say that Murray is better than Nole when it comes to beating players in the top ten, right, well that's funny because their rankings don't show that. Their rankings show that Nole is in the top ten and Murray is not.

So what do your facts say about that.

I think Nole is where he is because he got there and more convincingly than Murray would have. Where as Murray needs to work on fitness and pulling his game together.

Maybe he can reflect on that while sitting outside the top ten for a moment

I think it's obvious that they are pretty much equal right now. They were playing in IW for the top ten spot, and Djokovic's win was tainted by Murray's quasi-injury/tough match with Haas. If they had played in the first round, it'd have been a toss-up and who knows who would have been in top ten right now?

scoobs
03-20-2007, 06:07 PM
For all the Murray supporters who go on and on about his game I think the way he wins those games are very important seeing as how he isn't the one in the top ten as if right now.

So the facts say that Murray is better than Nole when it comes to beating players in the top ten, right, well that's funny because their rankings don't show that. Their rankings show that Nole is in the top ten and Murray is not.

So what do your facts say about that.

I think Nole is where he is because he got there and more convincingly than Murray would have. Where as Murray needs to work on fitness and pulling his game together.

Maybe he can reflect on that while sitting outside the top ten for a moment
The fact that Murray is not in the top 10 yet and Djokovic is, is not in dispute.

It also proves little. What matters is not who got there first, but who gets higher and who stays there longer. And the jury is still out on those questions, and will be for a long time. The people who portray getting there first as a great victory for Djokovic and a stinging defeat for Murray are tragically missing the point.

As for my facts - as I pointed out, Murray has a better record against top 10 players than Djokovic. This is not the whole story, of course - it takes more than beating top 10 players to get to the top 10 yourself, as we have seen. Djokovic has taken advantage of the opportunities that have come his way to make the QFs of a slam, the F of a TMS and to pick up three titles. This is all fair enough. My starting point from all this is that Djokovic has every right to be in the top 10 and has earned his place.

The question of how high he can go and how long he will stay there is still open, but it's obvious that if he wants to go higher and stay there longer, he will have to continue to defeat his lower-ranked opponents and improve his record against his fellow top-10 players. If he cannot, he will stagnate and go backwards. This is Novak's next big challenge - to add some high profile scalps.

If and when Murray gets into the top 10, he will at least already be in a position to know he can defeat those players ranked similarly to him, however ugly you might find his game in doing so. Sure, he has some things still to work on - his game is not the finished article and won't be for quite some time yet. When you have as many tools at your disposal as Murray has, sometimes it takes time to figure out which to use for which job. He could do with getting fitter still, although the injury he picked up against Haas was nothing to do with fitness issues. I think Murray will be in a position to stake out a position in the top 10 soon, and he has the tools and temperament to stay there a long time.

Ultimately both these young talents have plenty of time, and many big stages, upon which to prove themselves. Time will tell which of them will amass the better record.

sondraj06
03-20-2007, 06:10 PM
I think it's obvious that they are pretty much equal right now. They were playing in IW for the top ten spot, and Djokovic's win was tainted by Murray's quasi-injury/tough match with Haas. If they had played in the first round, it'd have been a toss-up and who knows who would have been in top ten right now?

I think that is pretty fair to say about there games, especially if you feel that both their games are fairly equal.

But in my opinion seeing as how we have to make that known now, because apparently the opinion thief is going around stealing people opinions and passing them off as their own :tape: uhum yeah sorry about that, but Imo, I think Murray has a ways to go before really being a contender for all the accolades that people drown him with.

I like the fact that Nole is their and got there first, I'd like to see Murray work on his game more before he gets there.

So I think the best man got the job, again IMO

Mistaflava
03-20-2007, 06:23 PM
Djokovic will never win a masters or a grand slam. 100%, he's a mug.



:worship:


Which means he doesn't belong in the TOP 10...the ATP is becoming a joke with this points system.

mangoes
03-20-2007, 06:26 PM
I think both Djokovic and Murray are presently on equal footing. If Murray hadn't been injured for his match against Djokovic, the outcome of the match could have been different........ Personally, I would have still put my money on Djokovic just because I think he is the stronger one between the two:shrug:

Either way, weeks ago, it was obvious that both guys were heading into the top 10. Djokovic deserves his spot in the top 10. He has been a consistent player. When the draw has opened up, he has taken advantage of it....(and that's something I've admired djokovic for because if this were easy to do, more youngsters would take advantage of draws that favorably open up). It will be interesting to see if Djokovic will continue to build on his results. He certainly does seem determined.

As for Murray, there is little doubt, for me, that he will enter the top 10 very soon. His record against the top 10 is to be admired. I also, personally, admire the way he now fights, in his matches, to win. I no longer see Murray just giving up when things aren't going his way. If anything, he begins to fight harder and show determination to win.........a perfect example was his match against Haas in IW.

I don't know how the clay season will treat each guy, but, personally, I see Djokovic climbing in the rankings during the clay season. However, Murray is not to be underestimated.

Both guys deserve congrats for moving up in the rankings.......and I don't even like either one of them:p :p

BlakeorHenman
03-20-2007, 06:32 PM
I really really wanna see these guys play when both are well-rested. I think it'd be a good, tight match.

mangoes
03-20-2007, 06:38 PM
I really really wanna see these guys play when both are well-rested. I think it'd be a good, tight match.

Oh Definitely. I say Djokovic would win, but I'm not so sure. Murray always surprises me. It's a toss up between those two.


I wish I were having this discussion about Gasquet and Berdych:mad: :mad:

Fumus
03-20-2007, 06:39 PM
In a top 10 that has been chock full o' talent this past year with amazing players like....

-Robredo
-Davydenko
-Ancic

don't forget the top 10ers of last year too(05')
-Puerta
-Gaudio

If you are catching my drift, with two guys like Federer and Nadal chewing up all the points...the top 10 is easier to get into, and it means less because they are seemingly the only guys winning major titles anymore anyways....but congrats to Djoko, he earned it!!

kundalini
03-20-2007, 06:39 PM
While breaking into the top 10 is a significant landmark, it is not really a major issue for Djokovic or others of similar talent. He's won plenty of matches, he got the points so he's a worthy member of the top 10.

Had he broken into the top 3 without beating many top 10 players then I think I might have questioned the extent to which he deserved that position but top 10 is a different matter.

As for Murray he had the chances to beat Ljubicic in Doha (terrible first game), Nadal in Aus then Roddick in Memphis (served for the second set) so that's enough points to make it into the top 10 wasted through a failure to make the most of his opportunities. No doubt he will get there eventually.

Aphex
03-20-2007, 06:50 PM
You earn it, you deserve it.

R.Federer
03-20-2007, 06:56 PM
In a top 10 that has been chock full o' talent this past year with amazing players like....

-Robredo
-Davydenko
-Ancic

What merits Davydenko's inclusion in this list? He was super consistent (69-29) and had deep runs. That is well worth a Top 10 position. Roddick had a less consistent year 49-19, lower win rate, and even --get this-- worse TB record in 2006! so why is he not on this list. :confused:

DDrago2
03-20-2007, 07:08 PM
If you are catching my drift, with two guys like Federer and Nadal chewing up all the points...the top 10 is easier to get into, and it means less because they are seemingly the only guys winning major titles anymore anyways....but congrats to Djoko, he earned it!!


This sums up the whole thing IMHO

ezekiel
03-20-2007, 09:44 PM
The fact that Murray is not in the top 10 yet and Djokovic is, is not in dispute.

Nole is first to top 100 , first to top 10, soon first to top 5 and so on ...

It also proves little. What matters is not who got there first, but who gets higher and who stays there longer. And the jury is still out on those questions, and will be for a long time. The people who portray getting there first as a great victory for Djokovic and a stinging defeat for Murray are tragically missing the point.

All fine points however I suppose you are not claiming to know the future, are you ?

As for my facts - as I pointed out, Murray has a better record against top 10 players than Djokovic. This is not the whole story, of course - it takes more than beating top 10 players to get to the top 10 yourself, as we have seen. Djokovic has taken advantage of the opportunities that have come his way to make the QFs of a slam, the F of a TMS and to pick up three titles. This is all fair enough. My starting point from all this is that Djokovic has every right to be in the top 10 and has earned his place.

Andy has barely played let alone win over an in form Nadal or Roger and that's what it all matters as far as top 10 is concerned . All of victories against every Roddick or Davydenko count for very little and lead to no titles or serious challenges apparently

The question of how high he can go and how long he will stay there is still open, but it's obvious that if he wants to go higher and stay there longer, he will have to continue to defeat his lower-ranked opponents and improve his record against his fellow top-10 players. If he cannot, he will stagnate and go backwards. This is Novak's next big challenge - to add some high profile scalps.

For your info he never played Davydenko, Roddick or Blake and only once Haas and Ljubicic. So he didn't get to play or just once half of top 10 and that is what I would call soft section. He had 3 matches with Gonzalez, 1 victory and 2 close defeats, 3 matches with Robredo, 2 victories and 1 defeat and against Federer/Nadal he is 0-6 combined.

However I will take comfort not in fact that they are so dominant but in fact that often he made himself a very worthy opponent of their like in 2nd set this sunday against Rafa or against Roger in Dubai and Monte Carlo or against Rafa @ RG . I don't expect him to win everything just yet but it's only a matter of time before he starts defeating them also and starts winning some big titles

If and when Murray gets into the top 10, he will at least already be in a position to know he can defeat those players ranked similarly to him, however ugly you might find his game in doing so.

I guess that includes Nole and of course Roger and Rafa in form


Sure, he has some things still to work on - his game is not the finished article and won't be for quite some time yet. When you have as many tools at your disposal as Murray has, sometimes it takes time to figure out which to use for which job. He could do with getting fitter still, although the injury he picked up against Haas was nothing to do with fitness issues. I think Murray will be in a position to stake out a position in the top 10 soon, and he has the tools and temperament to stay there a long time.

Ultimately both these young talents have plenty of time, and many big stages, upon which to prove themselves. Time will tell which of them will amass the better record.

He is a defensive player and I just don't see much potential for developing offensive weapons so he will always rely on defense and out manouvaring his oppenents . Defensive players develop earlier so he is what he is right now. He should get stronger and more experienced

R.Federer
03-20-2007, 09:49 PM
All fine points however I suppose you are not claiming to know the future, are you ?

Scoobsuk is just giving his opinion, he could well be mistaken about who stays there longer. As for his claiming to know the future, it seems eerily reminiscent of this :) ---

Nole is first to top 100 , first to top 10, soon first to top 5 and so on ...

scoobs
03-20-2007, 09:51 PM
All fine points however I suppose you are not claiming to know the future, are you ?

No - unlike you.

soon first to top 5 ...

scoobs
03-20-2007, 09:52 PM
For your info he never played Davydenko, Roddick or Blake and only once Haas and Ljubicic

I believe I said as much in an earlier post, but thanks!

sondraj06
03-20-2007, 09:54 PM
He is a defensive player and I just don't see much potential for developing offensive weapons so he will always rely on defense and out manouvaring his oppenents . Defensive players develop earlier so he is what he is right now. He should get stronger and more experienced

Precisely my point when it comes to Murray, I think peoples eyes got a little big with this kid and couldn't hold back. I think people need a little perspective when it comes to Murray games.

scoobs
03-20-2007, 09:56 PM
Murray's game is incomplete right now - that's a fact universally recognised.

It's not the finished article.

He's already #12.

I find it strange that, given this is the case, people believe when his game gets more complete he will then be less good than he is now.

R.Federer
03-20-2007, 09:58 PM
I find it strange that, given this is the case, people believe when his game gets more complete he will then be less good than he is now.

Those who do are correct that, at least thinking about when he will get in and how long he will stick around in the Top 10, is not just about how good he gets, but how good others get relative to him. Players mature at different rates, and he is clearly one who is fast off the blocks. Some players might just take a lot of time to get to be great players, but possibly have greater longevity.
He will surely get better and stronger, but others are not going to stay the same either.

scoobs
03-20-2007, 10:01 PM
Those who do are correct that, at least thinking about when he will get in and how long he will stick around in the Top 10, is not just about how good he gets, but how good others get relative to him. Players mature at different rates, and he is clearly one who is fast off the blocks. Some players might just take a lot of time to get to be great players, but possibly have greater longevity.
He will surely get better and stronger, but others are not going to stay the same either.
Of course not.

I totally agree with that point.

Ultimately this is all speculation.

To get this back on topic - no Djokovic has not had an easy ride into the top 10.

R.Federer
03-20-2007, 10:06 PM
Of course not.

I totally agree with that point.

Ultimately this is all speculation.

To get this back on topic - no Djokovic has not had an easy ride into the top 10.

Okay. I was just pointing out that his being #12 while being not fully developed, while still a work in progress with obvious signs that he is only going to get better means little for whether he will actually be ranked higher than #12 when he DOES become better. FWIW, I think he will have staying power in the Top 10. He feeds off confidence very well.

ezekiel
03-20-2007, 10:08 PM
Scoobsuk is just giving his opinion, he could well be mistaken about who stays there longer. As for his claiming to know the future, it seems eerily reminiscent of this :) ---

No - unlike you.

Clearly that point was made in jest but if it doesn't matter if he gets first top 100 and top 10 then it won't matter top 5 for that matter

scoobs
03-20-2007, 10:12 PM
Okay. I was just pointing out that his being #12 while being not fully developed, while still a work in progress with obvious signs that he is only going to get better means little for whether he will actually be ranked higher than #12 when he DOES become better. FWIW, I think he will have staying power in the Top 10. He feeds off confidence very well.
We'll have to see. Anything could happen - longevity is not guaranteed for anyone. I hope he can get into the top 10 and stay there a long time.

FWIW I hope Nole can too. He's a good player and he also should get better.

ezekiel
03-20-2007, 10:13 PM
I believe I said as much in an earlier post, but thanks!

maybe but you also insist that Nole can't beat them when he never played them :rolleyes:

scoobs
03-20-2007, 10:14 PM
maybe but you also insist that Nole can't beat them when he never played them :rolleyes:
I didn't, at any point, say Nole can't beat them.

Please re-read and point out where you think I said that.

Gulliver
03-21-2007, 12:01 AM
I totally agree that Djokovic deserves his top 10 place - he got the ranking points, and that's the system. The crunch is how long he can stay there, and the same for Murray, when, not if, he does.

I thought of Gasquet who got to #12 when he was 19 and stayed for 5 weeks until injuries knocked further progress on the head, huge slide down the rankings, and now clawing his way back. Tendency to get wretched draws though.

You just never know.

Havok
03-21-2007, 01:17 AM
Cracking the top 10 in both tours is NEVER an easy task. Top 10 players have very consistent results and need more than a couple of big events they did well in. Even during this massive clown era, it's still really hard to get into the top 10. Heck not many people have been dropping out/entering it so it just goes to show you how hard it truely is.

Obviously Djokovic was helped along the way with kind/soft draws, but who hasn't had draws like that? Only top players take full advantage of draws they're given and don't fuck it up. Novak did precicely that and thensome so he fully deserves his top 10 spot and no it was hardly easy for him.

ezekiel
03-21-2007, 01:54 AM
kind draws :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Only this year Federer early in AO and Dubai ? Youzhny 1st round in Marseille ?

uglyamerican
03-21-2007, 04:56 AM
In the last 52 weeks

Losses outside the top 50:
Murray 9
Djokovic 6

Losses outside the top 100:
Murray 4
Djokovic 3

Wins outside the top 50:
Murray 27
Djokovic 26

Top 50 players beaten in winning a tournament:
Murray 3
Djokovic 4

I did this quickly. Hopefully I didn't miss anything.

One more fact: From the beginning of 2006 to the present Murray has lost (before the finals) to the eventual champion 1 time. Djokovic has faced the eventual champion (before the finals) 7 times over the same period.

supertommyhaas
03-21-2007, 08:10 AM
nole is a fantastic player. He will win several slams and thurelly deserves to be in the top 10.

Radalek
03-21-2007, 03:22 PM
Murray's game is incomplete right now - that's a fact universally recognised.

It's not the finished article.

He's already #12.

I find it strange that, given this is the case, people believe when his game gets more complete he will then be less good than he is now.

Hm, what makes you think that Nole is finished article?He's a mess when he goes on net.His serve is great but it has potential to be a true weapon.And many other little things that he can improve.And he's #10.

As for favorable draws.Only this year he had Fed early in draw twice and two bad loses against red-hot Youzhny.And as uglyamerican said:

"One more fact: From the beginning of 2006 to the present Murray has lost (before the finals) to the eventual champion 1 time. Djokovic has faced the eventual champion (before the finals) 7 times over the same period."

Easy draws, huh?

scoobs
03-21-2007, 03:34 PM
Hm, what makes you think that Nole is finished article?He's a mess when he goes on net.His serve is great but it has potential to be a true weapon.And many other little things that he can improve.And he's #10.

As for favorable draws.Only this year he had Fed early in draw twice and two bad loses against red-hot Youzhny.And as uglyamerican said:

"One more fact: From the beginning of 2006 to the present Murray has lost (before the finals) to the eventual champion 1 time. Djokovic has faced the eventual champion (before the finals) 7 times over the same period."

Easy draws, huh?
Why do people assume that when I say something about ONE player, it must automatically mean I am saying that's not true about another player.

Murray's game is incomplete, in my view. That is NOT me saying therefore that Djokovic's game IS complete. Unquestionably Djokovic has things he can improve upon. Is that clear now?

I could spend a very long time detailing all the things that are, and all the things that are not. But I wouldn't get much else done in this life. So perhaps people could only pick me up on things that I say, and not on things that I didn't say, or things they assume I mean from what I say.

NikolaBGD
03-21-2007, 03:59 PM
We dont need to argue who is better Nole&Murray...

They are just kids, play profesional only 3 years, time is the best judge...
I can understand british who like Murray are little mad about Nole first enter in Top10...but that's the fact!
Think positive, this rivalty will make them better...

ezekiel
03-22-2007, 01:06 AM
Why do people assume that when I say something about ONE player, it must automatically mean I am saying that's not true about another player.

Murray's game is incomplete, in my view. That is NOT me saying therefore that Djokovic's game IS complete. Unquestionably Djokovic has things he can improve upon. Is that clear now?

I could spend a very long time detailing all the things that are, and all the things that are not. But I wouldn't get much else done in this life. So perhaps people could only pick me up on things that I say, and not on things that I didn't say, or things they assume I mean from what I say.


for a counterpuncher Andy's game is very complete, do you think he will be changing his style to become more complete ?

scoobs
03-22-2007, 01:09 AM
for a counterpuncher Andy's game is very complete, do you think he will be changing his style to become more complete ?
I think he needs to work on the serve more, I think although the technical elements of his game are all pretty much there, he needs to work on his temperament a bit and the understanding of what shot to use when. These are as much a part of his game as forehands and backhands, and in my view there's room for development in them.

uglyamerican
03-22-2007, 02:04 AM
There's no such thing as objective analysis, scoobs. If I made a statement like, "it would help if Murray could win more than one match on clay against a top 200 player," you can see that it is both a statement of fact and laced with my own views.

I think if you would have made the same posts in a different thread, the reception would be different.