Rafa To Fight For Monte Carlo And Hamburg Events Master Series Status [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Rafa To Fight For Monte Carlo And Hamburg Events Master Series Status

NicoFan
03-13-2007, 11:22 PM
I'm always afraid to start a thread in GM so please be nice.

I read this in an article in The Times Online. Rafa is going to work to try to make sure that Monte Carlo and Hamburg don't lose their status as Masters Series events (I hope he's successful...totally unfair to take away two clay court Masters Series events):

"Nadal could not be described as a ringleader, but he is the most prominent of those who do not want to see Monte Carlo or Hamburg lose their Masters status, as is suggested, who do not think that four back-to-back events in the spring of 2008 — a concertina effect caused by calendar shifts — is fair and want a significant say in helping to shape the future of the tour. They are talking to the European tournament directors, especially that of Monte Carlo (an event Nadal holds in the deepest esteem) who are unnerved at losing the status that they have fought long and hard to build.

“A lot of the clay-court players are unhappy,” Nadal said. “We have more players to talk to and we will see what we can do. It is a very important part of the season for so many players and the tournaments in Europe are the very best.”"

Here's the link to the entire article:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article1505899.ece

And if someone has already posted this I'll have one of the mods delete the thread.

delsa
03-14-2007, 12:07 AM
Very good initiative Rafa! I hope it will be fruitful. Monte-Carlo is many people's absolute favorite MS... ;)

scoobs
03-14-2007, 12:12 AM
Good luck - I hope he's successful.

Monte Carlo must stay - it's a fabulous event.

RickDaStick
03-14-2007, 12:13 AM
How bout you learn to play on faster surfaces Rafa?

NicoFan
03-14-2007, 12:19 AM
I love MC too - it's a beautiful event.

And no way should there be such an unfair advantage to hardcourt players with all those hardcourt MS events and only a couple clay court MS events.

R.Federer
03-14-2007, 12:28 AM
Is Roddick not going to fight for it? :fiery:

R.Federer
03-14-2007, 12:29 AM
And no way should there be such an unfair advantage to hardcourt players with all those hardcourt MS events and only a couple clay court MS events.

The real unfair disadvantage has really been for players like Hewitt and Roddick, who play very well on grass, and not as much on clay.

The real fair thing might be to add a grass MS (while keeping the clay MS). Players with clay court credentials have thus far had THREE T.M.S, and players with grass court prowesses: none.

Take Andy R for instance. He could even be #2 with a couple grass court T.M.S's up for grabs.

uglyamerican
03-14-2007, 12:30 AM
Is Roddick not going to fight for it? :fiery:

He should. He needs the down time.


I can't argue will Nadal on this issue.

guga2120
03-14-2007, 12:33 AM
i didn't know it was in jeopardy of losing that status, that sucks, if anything the clay court season should be longer, most countries in Europe and South America have more clay courts. Watching Hard courts like now, and then the clay, and the grass is always good, what do the want, all hard court events?? That's real exciting.

You know i would not mind more grass court tennis, i don't like watching it, but a Grass Master Series would be intresting.

And Monte Carlo:confused: , thats the best Master Series tournament there is.

NicoFan
03-14-2007, 12:34 AM
The real unfair disadvantage has really been for players like Hewitt and Roddick, who could play very well on grass, and not on clay.

The fair thing might be to add a grass MS. Players with clay court credentials have THREE T.M.S, and players with grass court prowesses: none.

Take Andy R for instance. He could even be #2 with a couple grass court T.M.S's up for grabs.


I understand your point on one hand.

But on the other, there's just so few players who can play well on grass anymore. It's not just the clay court players - a lot of the hardcourt players can't play it either.

When I first started watching tennis, players could play all surfaces. Yes, they may have excelled on one surface more than others, but they still did decently on the other surfaces.

Now everyone specializes...either on hardcourts or clay. Again, very few on grass. And it's probably because there is only 3-4 weeks on grass each year but months on either hardcourts or clay.

I wish the players would try to up their games on all surfaces. Including grass. But just don't see it happening.

Neely
03-14-2007, 12:36 AM
The real fair thing might be to add a grass MS (while keeping the clay MS). Players with clay court credentials have thus far had THREE T.M.S, and players with grass court prowesses: none.
My own and many others' speech regarding the grass court Masters :bounce: But it would need to be at the expense of hardcourt Masters, not at the expense of a claycourt Masters. We have already enough hardcourt (outdoor) Masters.

zicofirol
03-14-2007, 12:37 AM
The real unfair disadvantage has really been for players like Hewitt and Roddick, who play very well on grass, and not as much on clay.

The real fair thing might be to add a grass MS (while keeping the clay MS). Players with clay court credentials have thus far had THREE T.M.S, and players with grass court prowesses: none.

Take Andy R for instance. He could even be #2 with a couple grass court T.M.S's up for grabs.

I agree, MC should definetly stay but hamburg should be made into a grass court MC, paris should be cut...

Sjengster
03-14-2007, 12:38 AM
Well they'll never bother to up their games on grass if it constitutes such a small portion of the calendar - make it more significant and hopefully you will see more players take it seriously. Of course, a lot of it has to do with the fact that the sport doesn't have many grass courts at the grass roots, which is something that needs to be addressed.

zicofirol
03-14-2007, 12:38 AM
i didn't know it was in jeopardy of losing that status, that sucks, if anything the clay court season should be longer, most countries in Europe and South America have more clay courts. Watching Hard courts like now, and then the clay, and the grass is always good, what do the want, all hard court events?? That's real exciting.

You know i would not mind more grass court tennis, i don't like watching it, but a Grass Master Series would be intresting.

And Monte Carlo:confused: , thats the best Master Series tournament there is.

claycourt season should be longer? it already last from february till some events after or before the US open... enough claycourt, besieds hard courts have been slowed down enough...

Kitty de Sade
03-14-2007, 12:38 AM
I understand your point on one hand.

But on the other, there's just so few players who can play well on grass anymore. It's not just the clay court players - a lot of the hardcourt players can't play it either.

When I first started watching tennis, players could play all surfaces. Yes, they may have excelled on one surface more than others, but they still did decently on the other surfaces.

Now everyone specializes...either on hardcourts or clay. Again, very few on grass. And it's probably because there is only 3-4 weeks on grass each year but months on either hardcourts or clay.

I wish the players would try to up their games on all surfaces. Including grass. But just don't see it happening.


Very well said. I would love to see it happen too. Regardless, I hope he's successful- MC is a great place to be.

*Viva Chile*
03-14-2007, 12:39 AM
Having only one TMS clay tournament in the future is a total joke, so well done Rafa and good luck with the initiative :yeah:

Johnny Groove
03-14-2007, 12:39 AM
How bout you learn to play on faster surfaces Rafa?

how bout you go fuck yourself? :retard:

The real unfair disadvantage has really been for players like Hewitt and Roddick, who play very well on grass, and not as much on clay.

The real fair thing might be to add a grass MS (while keeping the clay MS). Players with clay court credentials have thus far had THREE T.M.S, and players with grass court prowesses: none.

Take Andy R for instance. He could even be #2 with a couple grass court T.M.S's up for grabs.

I agree that a grass TMS would be great, but why take a clay TMS away? Take an indoor or Hard court TMS away instead, like Cincy or Canada.

R.Federer
03-14-2007, 12:41 AM
Well, when you make it worthwhile to play well on every surface, as introducing a few important grass tournaments would do, players will not specialize the way they are. Players adapt. If not, how do you explain Nadal reaching a grass final? He had only limited experience as a junior on grass, and he was quite exclusively raised on clay if I am not mistaken.

Not every player also gets to grow up on rebound either. But players adapt, and get good results there. If fairness is the criteria, then there should be a somewhat equal number of good tournaments on all surfaces.

The problem with lumping all hard courts together is exactly that --there are different kinds of hard courts, fast, slow. I don't know which one they would remove in lieu of a clay court tournament.

I understand your point on one hand.

But on the other, there's just so few players who can play well on grass anymore. It's not just the clay court players - a lot of the hardcourt players can't play it either.

When I first started watching tennis, players could play all surfaces. Yes, they may have excelled on one surface more than others, but they still did decently on the other surfaces.

Now everyone specializes...either on hardcourts or clay. Again, very few on grass. And it's probably because there is only 3-4 weeks on grass each year but months on either hardcourts or clay.

I wish the players would try to up their games on all surfaces. Including grass. But just don't see it happening.

FanofFederer
03-14-2007, 12:41 AM
there's more than enough claycourt tournaments as it is. if you like grass but dislike clay you are out of luck atm. i agree with cutting out those two and give us one grass tms and some other smaller grass tournies to make up for it.

edit: and at least some of these grasscourts should be the old FAST grasscourts like yesteryear not the '
'bladed clay' grasscourt tournies we are experiencing now, to encourage more serve-volley and promote diversity of play on the tour.

NicoFan
03-14-2007, 12:41 AM
Well they'll never bother to up their games on grass if it constitutes such a small portion of the calendar - make it more significant and hopefully you will see more players take it seriously. Of course, a lot of it has to do with the fact that the sport doesn't have many grass courts at the grass roots, which is something that needs to be addressed.

So true.

Same can be said for the lack of clay court events at the lower levels in the US - which is why our players suck on clay now.

guga2120
03-14-2007, 12:44 AM
claycourt season should be longer? it already last from february till some events after or before the US open... enough claycourt, besieds hard courts have been slowed down enough...

no its hard court season right now, Indian Wells and Miami are not on clay.

Johnny Groove
03-14-2007, 12:46 AM
Well, when you make it worthwhile to play well on every surface, as introducing a few important grass tournaments would do, players will not specialize the way they are. Players adapt. If not, how do you explain Nadal reaching a grass final? He had only limited experience as a junior on grass, and he was quite exclusively raised on clay if I am not mistaken.

o please, it was CLEARLY the cakewalk draw and the slowing of the Wimbly courts :rolleyes:

NicoFan
03-14-2007, 12:46 AM
Well, when you make it worthwhile to play well on every surface, as introducing a few important grass tournaments would do, players will not specialize the way they are. Players adapt. If not, how do you explain Nadal reaching a grass final? He had only limited experience as a junior on grass, and he was quite exclusively raised on clay if I am not mistaken.

Not every player also gets to grow up on rebound either. But players adapt, and get good results there. If fairness is the criteria, then there should be a somewhat equal number of good tournaments on all surfaces.

Totally true.

But a lot of the players don't try. They are happy in specializing. And can get away with it.

I'll pick on Andy and James since I like them both and it won't be seen as bashing - both are in the Top 10 (well James may be out shortly) - but both are horrid on clay. And obviously can stay high in the rankings without playing many clay events or doing well at the ones they do play in.

So what is the motivation today for guys to try to excel on the other surfaces other than their own sense of wanting to become complete players?

Rafa decided to work hard on his grass game - and we saw the results...rather quickly I might add. Which shows the guys can do it if they try without making too many major adjustments to their games.

RickDaStick
03-14-2007, 12:49 AM
how bout you go fuck yourself? :retard:



I agree that a grass TMS would be great, but why take a clay TMS away? Take an indoor or Hard court TMS away instead, like Cincy or Canada.


A little fiesty today are we? Must be that comeback win from Ljubo.:D

Johnny Groove
03-14-2007, 12:52 AM
A little fiesty today are we? Must be that comeback win from Ljubo.:D

Nah, not really, Im actually pretty happy. Fed is gone, Rafa is kicking Ferrero's ass, and Roddick or Gasquet will be in the semis :wavey:

zicofirol
03-14-2007, 12:52 AM
no its hard court season right now, Indian Wells and Miami are not on clay.

and before IW you had 4 clay court tournaments in south america, after Miami "officially" start clay court season but there is enough claycourt events throughout the year for the dirtballers to play in...

RickDaStick
03-14-2007, 12:53 AM
Nah, not really, Im actually pretty happy. Fed is gone, Rafa is kicking Ferrero's ass, and Roddick or Gasquet will be in the semis :wavey:

dont count on it big guy

R.Federer
03-14-2007, 12:54 AM
I guess, the question is -- would the players objecting to a reduction of the clay court T.M.S be appeased if an equal number of clay as well as hard court T.M.Ss were removed (say Hamburg and Cincy)? If so, then it is not purely about removing "an important part of the season" but is essentially about fewer points to gain. I guess one conciliatory approach is to not remove a tournament, but make it one tier less.

There will be some plusses to shortening the seasons on every surface, you'd have a better turnout everywhere for one thing. Didn't Nadal and Federer both withdraw from Hamburg because of burnout?

Johnny Groove
03-14-2007, 12:54 AM
and before IW you had 4 clay court tournaments in south america, after Miami "officially" start clay court season but there is enough claycourt events throughout the year for the dirtballers to play in...

but there were also 8 hard court events, so one could make the argument that hard court season lasts all year too

Johnny Groove
03-14-2007, 12:57 AM
dont count on it big guy

we shall see. And on the off-chance that neither take out the egghead, then Nadal will be perfectly capable of doing it in the semis :yeah:

There will be some plusses to shortening the seasons on every surface, you'd have a better turnout everywhere for one thing. Didn't Nadal and Federer both withdraw from Hamburg because of burnout?

true, very true. But radically changing the format of the schedule isnt the best. just switch some tourneys around here and there, and the problem of burnout could be solved.

R.Federer
03-14-2007, 12:57 AM
Do most people agree that a larger fraction of the tour can play more successfully on hard than on clay? I am thinking of many so called dirt ballers who have very good results on clay, but the eminent hard courters dont similarly have good clay results

Johnny Groove
03-14-2007, 12:58 AM
Do most people agree that a larger fraction of the tour can play more successfully on hard than on clay?

true, so i guess we should play on hard all year?

zicofirol
03-14-2007, 12:59 AM
Do most people agree that a larger fraction of the tour can play more successfully on hard than on clay?

yes, Asia, Australia, I would say most of Africa, North America and parts of Europe play more on hard court, clay is just the other "extreme" with grass, if anything more grass events are needed...

NicoFan
03-14-2007, 01:01 AM
Do most people agree that a larger fraction of the tour can play more successfully on hard than on clay? I am thinking of many so called dirt ballers who have very good results on clay, but the eminent hard courters dont similarly have good clay results

Yes, true, but what a horrid thought to have all the tournaments on hardcourts. :lol:

Quelle nightmare!

simo4cufc
03-14-2007, 01:08 AM
The problem is that grass courts take so much more work to maintain. I guess they got phased out at the lower levels and the effects just drifted up the chain to the point where people in Britain sound resigned to Wimbledon going to Hard in the next decade. :mad:

I think that the ATP calendar should be more balanced between surfaces and the players, lower level tournys and then clubs/youth systems will be forced to adapt. Of course its not entirely fair as it would cost a fortune to maintain a grass court in South America.

NicoFan
03-14-2007, 01:15 AM
The problem is that grass courts take so much more work to maintain. I guess they got phased out at the lower levels and the effects just drifted up the chain to the point where people in Britain sound resigned to Wimbledon going to Hard in the next decade. :mad:

I think that the ATP calendar should be more balanced between surfaces and the players, lower level tournys and then clubs/youth systems will be forced to adapt. Of course its not entirely fair as it would cost a fortune to maintain a grass court in South America.

It costs a fortune in the States too. Only the really wealthy elite tennis clubs have grass (or clay) courts.

And the programs that are sponsored to get really young kids interested in the game are usually always on hardcourts. From what I understand, its much easier to make a hardcourt than a clay or grass court.

Johnny Groove
03-14-2007, 01:27 AM
It costs a fortune in the States too. Only the really wealthy elite tennis clubs have grass (or clay) courts.

And the programs that are sponsored to get really young kids interested in the game are usually always on hardcourts. From what I understand, its much easier to make a hardcourt than a clay or grass court.

but clay is such a better surface than hard! :lol:

GlennMirnyi
03-14-2007, 01:30 AM
Of course he will fight. They are his only chance to win something anyway.

wally1
03-14-2007, 01:31 AM
The problem is that grass courts take so much more work to maintain. I guess they got phased out at the lower levels and the effects just drifted up the chain to the point where people in Britain sound resigned to Wimbledon going to Hard in the next decade. :mad:

I think that the ATP calendar should be more balanced between surfaces and the players, lower level tournys and then clubs/youth systems will be forced to adapt. Of course its not entirely fair as it would cost a fortune to maintain a grass court in South America.I'd be absolutely amazed if Wimbledon changed away from grass any time soon i.e. within the next 20 years. I just don't see the push for this to happen.

NicoFan
03-14-2007, 01:32 AM
but clay is such a better surface than hard! :lol:

Si, of course! But since I'm not running the USTA, no one's calling me for my opinion on the subject. ;) :lol: :lol:

I want the USTA to buy some of the land around the National Tennis Center - all those old warehouses that can easily be gone - and the City wants the area cleaned up - and put in some clay courts (and a couple grass courts. ;) ).

scoobs
03-14-2007, 01:32 AM
Wimbledon won't go to hardcourt in decades, in my view - it just won't.

GlennMirnyi
03-14-2007, 01:35 AM
The day Wimbledon turns into hard tennis will be officially declared dead.

scoobs
03-14-2007, 01:37 AM
Why on earth would Wimbledon change to hard? It's the most outrageously successful and respected tournament on the planet.

Sunset of Age
03-14-2007, 01:39 AM
The day Wimbledon turns into hard tennis will be officially declared dead.

Must admit I fully agree with you here! :yeah:

That said, I think Raf is right about this. Their are too many HC Masters already, and if there's any need for a change - keep the number of Clay Masters equal, and exchange one HC for a Masters on GRASS!

NicoFan
03-14-2007, 01:42 AM
How did my thread about Rafa fighting to save MC and Hamburg as MS events turn into a grass thread? :lol: (Grass isn't my favorite surface though I do love Wimbledon and would be horrified if they turned it into hardcourts...clay okay but NEVER hardcourts. :lol: )

We need to get back on topic. We need to save Monte Carlo and Hamburg!!! At the very least, MC.

Metis
03-14-2007, 01:43 AM
Why on earth would Wimbledon change to hard? It's the most outrageously successful and respected tournament on the planet.

Global warming. :p

vamosnadal
03-14-2007, 01:53 AM
Apparently all of the clay court players had a meeting the other day to discuss the Monte Carlo situation and they are all very angry about it. Nadal has been an obvious choice of spokesman, but he is by no means the main person against this change. It will probably be a lot more detrimental to the lower ranked clay court players.

(Wimbledon will never turn to hard courts!)

scoobs
03-14-2007, 01:58 AM
I think getting rid of MC as a TMS would be an appalling decision - I don't know why you would take a long-established, well-loved and very popular tournament with the players and fans in a wonderful setting, and reduce it to Estoril status.

I hate the idea of demoting 2 long-standing clay events in order to create a brand new one in somewhere like Madrid. It's completely illogical. They need to reorganise some of the events on the calendar, not make whole new events and downgrade others.

NicoFan
03-14-2007, 01:59 AM
Apparently all of the clay court players had a meeting the other day to discuss the Monte Carlo situation and they are all very angry about it. Nadal has been an obvious choice of spokesman, but he is by no means the main person against this change. It will probably be a lot more detrimental to the lower ranked clay court players.


Did they say who is in the lead to fight it?

Rafa is the obvious spokesperson. Everything he says appears in print so he can get the media attention.

vamosnadal
03-14-2007, 02:07 AM
Did they say who is in the lead to fight it?

Rafa is the obvious spokesperson. Everything he says appears in print so he can get the media attention.

The article didn't mention any names, it just said loads of clay specialists players are very very angry and Rafa himself is also disappointed with the plans (especially as Monte Carlo is one of his favourite tournaments) and has been set up as one of the main spokesmen against the changes due to his large influence in the media etc.

I'll try to find the link to the article

Scoobsuk I agree completely with your above post. I'm dead against this latest idea.

Havok
03-14-2007, 02:29 AM
No clay TMS should get canceled. Monte Carlo OWNS, it's such a beautiful venue it's just at a horrible juncture in the ATP schedule so many players (most notably US players) skip it. Rome is also an awesome event. Hamburg, though, I can't say as much but still a great event. Having back to back TMS events isn't the smartest thing, but it's much easier to play back to back hardcourt TMS events vs clay events because clay court matches last that much longer.

What should happen is the grass courts getting a TMS, or just bump Queens to a TMS. It plays like 85% to a TMS standard anyways with all the big guns playing there except for Federer, Haas and Safin. IMO the indoor TMS in Paris should get the boot. Great event, but Paris has a GS and many other small events.

Gulliver
03-14-2007, 02:32 AM
Rafa himself is also disappointed with the plans (especially as Monte Carlo is one of his favourite tournaments)

You mean like AO, RG, WB, USO, IW, Miami, Rome, Barcelona, Madrid, Basel, Stuttgart whatever....hasn't he said that about every tournament he plays, or withdraws from, being terribly disappointed as it's "one of my favourite tournaments". So I don't take any notice of that. It's pure self interest, Nadal isn't into philanthropy or aware of any historical significance.

The speed of courts outside has been so slowed down to accommodate the clay courters and virtually wipe out S & V that most everyone's playing a clay court game anyway whatever the surface.

Lowest common denominator --> mediocrity, so go Rafa, bring everything down to your level.

*Viva Chile*
03-14-2007, 02:37 AM
I will never understand why in the states cost too much mantaining a clay court. Even the minor tennis clubs have clay courts here in Chile.

I change a bit my opinion now.... Remove Hamburg as TMS and bump Queen's Club to TMS. But only 1 TMS on clay is an absolute joke.

NicoFan
03-14-2007, 02:38 AM
The article didn't mention any names, it just said loads of clay specialists players are very very angry and Rafa himself is also disappointed with the plans (especially as Monte Carlo is one of his favourite tournaments) and has been set up as one of the main spokesmen against the changes due to his large influence in the media etc.

I'll try to find the link to the article


Thanks!! :)

vamosnadal
03-14-2007, 02:39 AM
Lowest common denominator --> mediocrity, so go Rafa, bring everything down to your level.

It's not just about Rafa...that's the point to what I was saying. He is going to be quite vocal about it, but on behalf of a lot of players who are already angry.

MC being one of his favourite tournaments obviously isn't the only reason why he's against the plans...

Johnny Groove
03-14-2007, 02:40 AM
I will never understand why in the states cost too much mantaining a clay court. Even the minor tennis clubs have clay courts here in Chile.

It does NOT take that much to maintain clay courts, I have no idea why the USTA doesnt want us to be able to dirtball :o

NicoFan
03-14-2007, 02:44 AM
I will never understand why in the states cost too much mantaining a clay court. Even the minor tennis clubs have clay courts here in Chile.

Because most tennis courts here in the States are public courts. A lot of courts are at high schools and or at parks in towns/cities - which are public (meaning basically either free of charge or very low cost to play there). And that's where they have the programs for kids.

Hardcourts are easy to maintain - schools and park departments have limited budgets. Basically they lay down the courts and don't have to do anything at all to them for years until they need eventually to be resurfaced.

I'm not an expert on what it takes to maintain a clay court, but I think they need some minimal maintenance - hardcourts need none.

Elite private tennis clubs have grass and clay. But smaller private tennis clubs that don't charge the high fees are also mostly hardcourts - again, I think cost.

Winston's Human
03-14-2007, 02:53 AM
The whole Disney TMS revamping program is ridiculous. To toss by the wayside a storied tournament like Monte Carlo is idiotic.

IMO, the ATP should add a tenth TMS tournament in Asia to promote the sport, but only require the players to play eight of the ten masters tournaments. This would allow the top players to build breaks in their schedules.

Is it really a loss when the Americans like Roddick or Blake bypass Monte Carlo or when players who are strongest on clay bypass a carpet or fast hard court masters tournament?

bavaria100
03-14-2007, 02:56 AM
I read yesterday that there are plans to move the Hamburg tournament into the fall and that the new venue (if it happens) will be the Color Line Arena. Maybe Madrid will give Hamburg their indoor TMS in exchange for a clay TMS? :shrug:

Gulliver
03-14-2007, 02:58 AM
Clay courters can play a tournament for 19 weeks in the year 5 of which are for MC, Rome, Hamburg, RG (2). 14 weeks left to play wherever they want.

Hard courts (and that's a euphemism) can be played for 20 weeks in the year but 10 of those are for AO (2), USO (2), IW (2), Miami (2), Cincy and Canada. 10 weeks left to play wherever they want.

That leaves 8 weeks for Indoor with 2 for Madrid and Bercy, and a measly 5 weeks for Grass with 2 for WB.

So mandatory clay is 5, Hard is 10, Indoor 2 and grass 2.

Clay courters already have it with jam on.

Yappa
03-14-2007, 03:11 AM
Well, this was already discussed so many times in past threads, so instead of posting my opinion, I'll just pass along the information which I got yesterday:

Hamburg is still thinking about the possibility of candidating as an Indoor Masters Series event in November, but they first of all still plan to remain a Clay Masters Event in May. If all attempts to stay a Masters Series tourney fail, then they'll have a 1.4 Million Euro clay event in July.
Well, clay after the grass season sucks, but at least I wouldn't freeze to death anymore.

Peoples
03-14-2007, 03:17 AM
Monte Carlo maybe but Hamburg the Robredo-Masters is pointless as it is scheduled now.

ChinoRios4Ever
03-14-2007, 04:38 AM
fight rafa FIGHT! :fiery:

tangerine_dream
03-14-2007, 05:22 AM
Having only one TMS clay tournament in the future is a total joke, so well done Rafa and good luck with the initiative :yeah:
Having no TMS grass tournaments is an even bigger joke. One of the clays must go and I hope it's Hamburg.

Good luck to Rafa on his initiative. Mr Disney only takes phone calls from Roger.

nobama
03-14-2007, 06:32 AM
You mean like AO, RG, WB, USO, IW, Miami, Rome, Barcelona, Madrid, Basel, Stuttgart whatever....hasn't he said that about every tournament he plays, or withdraws from, being terribly disappointed as it's "one of my favourite tournaments". So I don't take any notice of that. It's pure self interest, Nadal isn't into philanthropy or aware of any historical significance.

The speed of courts outside has been so slowed down to accommodate the clay courters and virtually wipe out S & V that most everyone's playing a clay court game anyway whatever the surface.

Lowest common denominator --> mediocrity, so go Rafa, bring everything down to your level.Exactly. There are no fast courts anymore. Maybe US Open but I'd say that has even been slowed down compared to what it used to be. Clay courters should quit bitching. They have nothing to complain about.

nobama
03-14-2007, 06:36 AM
o please, it was CLEARLY the cakewalk draw and the slowing of the Wimbly courts :rolleyes:Last year Roddick and Justine Henin said the Wimbledon courts were playing like clay courts.

*Viva Chile*
03-14-2007, 06:40 AM
Last year Roddick and Justine Henin said the Wimbledon courts were playing like clay courts.
Whiny Ducky is capable of saying whatever :bs: after that was hunted by Murray in Wimby.... sore loser :ras:

Clara Bow
03-14-2007, 06:52 AM
Clay courters should quit bitching. They have nothing to complain about.


I don't equate trying to save Monte Carlo as being demoted as "bitching" - I see it as trying to save a highly regarded and very traditional tournament.

So- if they got rid of Hamburg and Monte Carlo and had the proposed 8 Masters Series events- that would mean there would be one clay and seven hard.

I hope that some folks don't just user their hata vision when it comes to Rafa and say he should shut up and not have an opinion about Monte Carlo going. And that because Rafa and other clay court players would like to keep Monte Carlo- of course the opposite must be true and it should go. Never mind the tradition- never mind anything- because it is clay - it must be "mediocre."

So no grass- one clay- and the rest are slow to fast hard courts. I don't see how that is any better than the current situation- but worse. And believe it or not- even if a hard court is slow- it is still not clay. You can't slide on hard the way you can on clay, etc. Speed is not the only thing when it comes to surfaces.

I would love it if there were more variety in speed of surfaces. Fast grass, fast hard, medium/slow hard, clay- and then whatever Hamburg is. :) But I don't see how making all of the Masters but one hard court will fix that.

I do agree that they need a grass Masters. But I don't see how eliminating two clay court tournaments- keeping the rest hard, and not adding a grass fixes that problem. If they got rid of Hamburg and added a grass- I could see that. But that is not is what is going to happen. Instead it is going to even more homogoneous- with it incredibly skewed towards hard.

mangoes
03-14-2007, 07:36 AM
I think there needs to be more balance of tms among the different surfaces. Given the choice to make changes, I'd do the following:

IW - Eliminate

Miami - 1st TMS of the season

Monte Carlo - Keep

Roma - Keep

Hamburg - Eliminate

Toronto/Montreal - Keep

Cincy - Eliminate

Madrid - Keep

Paris - Eliminate

I would ADD:

An Indoor TMS in Germany
A Grass TMS in London

Kolya
03-14-2007, 07:43 AM
Why is ATP thinking of removing TMS status in Monte Carlo and Hamburg?

Thats just stupid... can't just ditch something with such a great history and great winners.

CyBorg
03-14-2007, 07:46 AM
Get rid of Hamburg, keep Monte Carlo. Give Queen's the Master's Status.

What exactly is the problem?

P.S. To appease the Germans give them the Masters Cup at the year's end. I don't see why the French need another high profile tournament. On that note, sack Paris as well and give that tourney to Tokyo.

Kolya
03-14-2007, 07:48 AM
Queen's would a a good grass court event to give TMS status.

It would definitely attract more top players to play in than the last few years.

zicofirol
03-14-2007, 07:49 AM
Clay courters can play a tournament for 19 weeks in the year 5 of which are for MC, Rome, Hamburg, RG (2). 14 weeks left to play wherever they want.

Hard courts (and that's a euphemism) can be played for 20 weeks in the year but 10 of those are for AO (2), USO (2), IW (2), Miami (2), Cincy and Canada. 10 weeks left to play wherever they want.

That leaves 8 weeks for Indoor with 2 for Madrid and Bercy, and a measly 5 weeks for Grass with 2 for WB.

So mandatory clay is 5, Hard is 10, Indoor 2 and grass 2.

Clay courters already have it with jam on.

Yes, grass should at least have 8 weeks, take if you want 2 from clay court and hard court but the Grass season is to short, a grass MS is definetly needed, eliminate paris, and make hamburg grass, moving RG a week before, but getting the slams to do anything is impossible so not sure how the sched would work but if anything just have a grass MS after wimbledon...

As for claycourters crying, they have already enough weeks to play clay plus they have had all surfaces including wimbledon slowed down so what stop the bitching and move up a feet or two into the court so your only 8 feet behind the baseline...:rolleyes:

*julie*
03-14-2007, 07:52 AM
I think there needs to be more balance of tms among the different surfaces. Given the choice to make changes, I'd do the following:

IW - Eliminate

Miami - 1st TMS of the season

Monte Carlo - Keep

Roma - Keep

Hamburg - Eliminate

Toronto/Montreal - Keep

Cincy - Eliminate

Madrid - Keep

Paris - Eliminate

I would ADD:

An Indoor TMS in Germany
A Grass TMS in London

It sounds good. :yeah:

Please don't remove Monte Carlo. :sad:
Good luck to Nadal and co for their claims.

Clara Bow
03-14-2007, 07:56 AM
I think there needs to be more balance of tms among the different surfaces. Given the choice to make changes, I'd do the following:

IW - Eliminate

Miami - 1st TMS of the season

Monte Carlo - Keep

Roma - Keep

Hamburg - Eliminate

Toronto/Montreal - Keep

Cincy - Eliminate

Madrid - Keep

Paris - Eliminate

I would ADD:

An Indoor TMS in Germany
A Grass TMS in London

I really like your general template. But I do like the idea of having a TMS in Asia.

So I would say
- Add and indoor TMS in Asia
- Add a TMS on grass in Halle or Queen's

And I don't think they would ever get rid of IW.

But I agree with your general ideas.

CyBorg
03-14-2007, 07:59 AM
Here's what I would have:

Indian Wells - keep

Miami - keep; both of these tournaments are pretty darn ideal if you ask me

Monte Carlo - a superb event

Rome - the organizers could do a better job, but it's been around a while; keep it

Queen's - a couple of weeks before Wimbledon .. on grass

Toronto/Montreal - can't complain .. get rid of Cincy - the US already has two masters events early in the year and they don't need another .. besides these two back-to-back doesn't make sense

Madrid - it's not perfect but Spain deserves an event .. it's either this or Barcelona

Tokyo - forget Paris; the Japanese appreciate tennis .. perhaps the Chinese

Masters Cup - Germany .. they need something

---

There you go - one less masters series event, more grass, slightly less clay, slightly less hard court, slightly less America

Aphex
03-14-2007, 08:17 AM
Clay courters can play a tournament for 19 weeks in the year 5 of which are for MC, Rome, Hamburg, RG (2). 14 weeks left to play wherever they want.

Hard courts (and that's a euphemism) can be played for 20 weeks in the year but 10 of those are for AO (2), USO (2), IW (2), Miami (2), Cincy and Canada. 10 weeks left to play wherever they want.

That leaves 8 weeks for Indoor with 2 for Madrid and Bercy, and a measly 5 weeks for Grass with 2 for WB.

So mandatory clay is 5, Hard is 10, Indoor 2 and grass 2.

Clay courters already have it with jam on. Three objections: indoors is not a surface; claycourts also play diferently; you know how the ranking system works for top 50 players, mandatory events and optionals, don't you?

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 08:18 AM
There are enough clay TMS events at the moment and if this arse clown De Villiers wants to reduce to 1 then he is really has rocks in his head at best.

If they are so keen for a grass TMS, then get rid of a hardcourt one.

Yes, downgrading Monte Carlo wouldn't go down to well considering the European base of the ATP is located there as well. The respective princes have invested a lot of money and they want to keep some shitty 96 originally 128 draw format event that was devised in the 80s and get rid of an event like Monte Carlo.

Aphex
03-14-2007, 08:34 AM
Btw, I'm so bored with this discussion about the schedule. I say change as little as possible. The off season is really only a problem for those who play the TMC and the DC final. If you shortened the season by two weeks and made Aus O start one week later that problem would be solved. If you let the DC finalists have a bye in the first round of next yeras competition that would help. You could reschedule tournaments to fit this plan.

The other problem is the mandatory tournaments on the ranking are too many. You should make them play 7 out of 9 masters and maybe 4 optionals instead. And are players really interested in a longer grass court season? Ok, so maybe one more week between RG and Wimbledon would benefit players. But who should switch dates? :wavey:

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 08:42 AM
Yes, they could have a 14 team World Group for DC, that wouldn't be a problem at all, though the ITF wouldn't like the loss of revenue.

They have been talking about changing the schedule for about 25 years now.

Aphex
03-14-2007, 08:52 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if tennis was to split up in two different tours again. I don't think any of the Masters series tournaments want to lose their status. Especially not anyone of the classics, ie Monte Carlo, Rome, Hamburg, Canada, Cincinatti. And US Open series is under fire from the WTA. What would happen if the claycourt series and the US Open series got pissed off and formed their own tour?

almouchie
03-14-2007, 08:53 AM
i definitely like Monte CArlo
its a great warm up for RG
if they are going to go with less TMS, then one of the north AMerican need to be sacrificed
If u ask me there should be A GRASS TMS,
Its frustrating that there are only 3 weeks of grass tournie, only 5 on grass all year, that is just ridiculous
probably becuase most players suck on grass, u dont hear many vioce that,
but its great for the fans

Bobby
03-14-2007, 09:13 AM
Here's what I would have:

Indian Wells - keep

Miami - keep; both of these tournaments are pretty darn ideal if you ask me

Monte Carlo - a superb event

Rome - the organizers could do a better job, but it's been around a while; keep it

Queen's - a couple of weeks before Wimbledon .. on grass

Toronto/Montreal - can't complain .. get rid of Cincy - the US already has two masters events early in the year and they don't need another .. besides these two back-to-back doesn't make sense

Madrid - it's not perfect but Spain deserves an event .. it's either this or Barcelona

Tokyo - forget Paris; the Japanese appreciate tennis .. perhaps the Chinese

Masters Cup - Germany .. they need something

---

There you go - one less masters series event, more grass, slightly less clay, slightly less hard court, slightly less America



Sounds good. But when would be a good time for the Tokyo tournament? I think there are many countries which would deserve a TMS event. But it's very difficult to change the ATP calendar.

aulus
03-14-2007, 09:22 AM
i want to see more diversity in TMS, in both location and surface.
hamburg and cincinnati are both sandwiched in between TMS and GS, so they are good candidate to drop. paris should be dropped also.
i think it might be a good idea to alternate locations like the canadian open does.

hard:
montreal/toronto
IW/miami
(indoor) shanghai/tokyo

clay:
buenos aires/acapulco (somewhere in latin america)
monte carlo/roma

grass: (RG moved up)
halle/queen's

carpet:
st. petersburg/moscow/zagreb/stockholm (somewhere in eastern europe)


TMC should be held in a different location each year.

Dougie
03-14-2007, 09:32 AM
Here's what I would have:

Indian Wells - keep

Miami - keep; both of these tournaments are pretty darn ideal if you ask me

Monte Carlo - a superb event

Rome - the organizers could do a better job, but it's been around a while; keep it

Queen's - a couple of weeks before Wimbledon .. on grass

Toronto/Montreal - can't complain .. get rid of Cincy - the US already has two masters events early in the year and they don't need another .. besides these two back-to-back doesn't make sense

Madrid - it's not perfect but Spain deserves an event .. it's either this or Barcelona

Tokyo - forget Paris; the Japanese appreciate tennis .. perhaps the Chinese

Masters Cup - Germany .. they need something

---

There you go - one less masters series event, more grass, slightly less clay, slightly less hard court, slightly less America

Really canīt see Queens as a masters event...A great tournament, no doubt about it. But itīs still more or less one of those "warm-up events" for the Wimbledon.

CooCooCachoo
03-14-2007, 09:37 AM
Hamburg ought to go.

Dougie
03-14-2007, 09:49 AM
i want to see more diversity in TMS, in both location and surface.


carpet:
st. petersburg/moscow/zagreb/stockholm (somewhere in eastern europe)




I donīt think there is any need for too many masters events on carpet...And before there are more events in Asia, and some masters events in South-America and Africa, Europe doesnīt need any more of them. And St. Petersburg, Moscow, Zagreb (!!??) and Stockholm are not events that would deserve a masters status in any case.

Dougie
03-14-2007, 09:52 AM
carpet:
st. petersburg/moscow/zagreb/stockholm (somewhere in eastern europe)

.

And by the way, Stockholm is hardly considered as "eastern europe"...

almouchie
03-14-2007, 10:01 AM
IW - 1st TMS of the season

Miami - Eliminate

Monte Carlo - Keep

Roma - Eliminate

Hamburg - Keep

Toronto/Montreal - Eliminate

TMS- Indoors in Asia (china/Japan)
Cincy - Eliminate

Madrid - Keep

Paris - Keep

TMS in London in Grass (maybe even upgrade Queens )

====================

7 out of 9 masters and maybe 4 optionals instead (like Alphex said)
TMC should be held in a different location (country) each year (agree with aulus)
They have been talking about changing the schedule for about 25 years now.(GeorgeWHitler) they will continue to in the next 25 yrs with nothing ever changed
I agree with Alphex about DC winners gettign a bye

A
N
D

there has to be some changes done to shorten the season not soo hard if they make the effort, some tournaments might be sacrified, but 2 months break is a must. they can even alternate between those tournie every year, like they do in TMS Canada.
they need to have the win to make changes for the sake of players as well as fans watchinng, but there main concern is money now, & dont want to do anything to upset the moneymakers, they might not even have the authority

RonE
03-14-2007, 10:04 AM
Of course he wants to keep them- they are 2 out of only 3 TMS events where he doesn't have to rely on the luck of the draw to advance and win them :shrug:

Johnny Groove
03-14-2007, 10:36 AM
IW - 1st TMS of the season

Miami - Eliminate

Monte Carlo - Keep

Roma - Eliminate

Hamburg - Keep

Toronto/Montreal - Eliminate

TMS- Indoors in Asia (china/Japan)
Cincy - Eliminate

Madrid - Keep

Paris - Keep

TMS in London in Grass (maybe even upgrade Queens )

====================

7 out of 9 masters and maybe 4 optionals instead (like Alphex said)
TMC should be held in a different location (country) each year (agree with aulus)
They have been talking about changing the schedule for about 25 years now.(GeorgeWHitler) they will continue to in the next 25 yrs with nothing ever changed
I agree with Alphex about DC winners gettign a bye

A
N
D

there has to be some changes done to shorten the season not soo hard if they make the effort, some tournaments might be sacrified, but 2 months break is a must. they can even alternate between those tournie every year, like they do in TMS Canada.
they need to have the win to make changes for the sake of players as well as fans watchinng, but there main concern is money now, & dont want to do anything to upset the moneymakers, they might not even have the authority

so you want to get rid of Miami and Rome, then get rid of Cincy and Canada, and instead, have an Asian TMS halfway around the world with the USO a few weeks away :retard: :retard:

Loremaster
03-14-2007, 11:00 AM
Monte Carlo TMS - YES( one of the best TMS events) Hamburg TMS - NO it is like MM event all players are tired mamy miss it and it it is short before slam + 3TMS before slam is too much

Saumon
03-14-2007, 11:02 AM
Rafa! :rocker2: At least keep MC :awww:

I can't wait for Marat to battle to save Paris :p

oz_boz
03-14-2007, 11:19 AM
Switch Hamburg TMS to Halle TMS and Paris TMS to Shanghai TMS.

maqk
03-14-2007, 11:39 AM
Keep MC, thats the best

Jogy
03-14-2007, 11:50 AM
Of course he will fight. They are his only chance to win something anyway.
The same if they take away hardcourt for Federer. At the time Federer finally wins something on clay else than his favourite mickey mouses at home in Switzerland or the Mickey Mouse AMS also known as Hambourg, you maybe have reason to complain about Nadal :)

Jogy
03-14-2007, 11:52 AM
Of course he wants to keep them- they are 2 out of only 3 TMS events where he doesn't have to rely on the luck of the draw to advance and win them :shrug:
and where was Federer when Nadal won his hardcourt masters titles? :shrug:

Aphex
03-14-2007, 12:02 PM
:haha: #2, #12 and the best one #20 in effect
http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=78381&highlight=laws

RonE
03-14-2007, 12:10 PM
and where was Federer when Nadal won his hardcourt masters titles? :shrug:

That's my point- when he won those titles he did not face any player that was a bad match up for him on hardcourts.

No Berdych, no Blake, no Youzhny etc.

I didn't say he can't win on hardcourts, only that he needs not to be drawn against certain players who match up badly against him.

He is a decent hardcourt player for sure. But not a great one. When he does face a player who is out hitting him he doesn't have an alternate game plan to fall back on.

Clay is a different story- he is the undisputed best on clay and no matter what his draws look like in a clay court event he will always be the odds on favourite.

oz_boz
03-14-2007, 12:13 PM
The same if they take away hardcourt for Federer. At the time Federer finally wins something on clay else than his favourite mickey mouses at home in Switzerland or the Mickey Mouse AMS also known as Hambourg, you maybe have reason to complain about Nadal :)

:yeah:

Fed's route to the title in Hamburg 2004 was

Gaudio
Lapentti
Gonzalez
Moya
Hewitt
Coria

Mickey Mouse tournie if there ever were one, and a cakewalk draw on top of that.

FluffyYellowBall
03-14-2007, 01:42 PM
Has nothing to do with being a claycourter. Its just not fair that they increase hard court tournaments and remove 2 tms's on clay. Maybe they should sacrifice madrid, cincy or toronto for a grass court tournament. I never heard about this anyways.

All_Slam_Andre
03-14-2007, 01:59 PM
There is too much hardcourt tennis. The specialisms of grass court tennis and now even clay court tennis are fading away. The natural surfaces need to be appropiately represented on the calendar.
Also the hardcourts cause the most injuries as the surface is the most damaging on the muscles, ligaments and joints.
For me, 8 masters series events sounds like a good number. I would have 4 on hard, 2 on clay, 1 on grass and 1 on carpet.

My ideal line-up is:
TMS Indian Wells - Hard
TMS Miami - Hard
TMS Monte-Carlo - Clay
TMS Rome - Clay
TMS Halle - Grass (Not Queen's as London already has a grand slam and Germany should still be allowed to host a big event)
TMS Toronto/Montreal - Hard
TMS Shanghai - Indoor Carpet (A good idea to have a TMS in this rich and well populated region)
TMS Madrid - Indoor Hard (Spain is a tennis superpower and deserves a big event)
Masters Cup - Change location every year with the 4 grand slam cities Melbourne, Paris, London and New York not being allowed to host the event.

Scrap Hamburg as it is a weak TMS. 3 claycourt TMS in 5 weeks before the French Open is far too exhausting and taxing for the players. Scrap Paris as no city should host both a grand slam and masters series event. The USA doesn't deserve to have 3 masters series events. California and Florida are the two ideal regions to host a TMS so scrap Cincy.

Dougie
03-14-2007, 02:20 PM
My ideal line-up is:
TMS Indian Wells - Hard
TMS Miami - Hard
TMS Monte-Carlo - Clay
TMS Rome - Clay
TMS Halle - Grass (Not Queen's as London already has a grand slam and Germany should still be allowed to host a big event) .

The problem with grass court tournaments is that the game is boring as hell to watch. Donīt get me wrong, I love Wimbledon, but the game on grass in general is not very spectator-friendly. Also, all the grass court tournaments all held within a few weeks of Wimbledon, and I donīt see a point to have a TMS event so close to a GS anyway.

Fumus
03-14-2007, 03:28 PM
F-that, we don't need 3 clay masters back to back. Bullshit. Keep two, dump one, make one on grass....

This way Roger can't duck out against all the best players on grass every year and hide in Halle as his only warm up. Also it will give guys a better chance to warm up for grass season.

oz_boz
03-14-2007, 03:28 PM
My ideal line-up is:
TMS Indian Wells - Hard
TMS Miami - Hard
TMS Monte-Carlo - Clay
TMS Rome - Clay
TMS Halle - Grass (Not Queen's as London already has a grand slam and Germany should still be allowed to host a big event)
TMS Toronto/Montreal - Hard
TMS Shanghai - Indoor Carpet (A good idea to have a TMS in this rich and well populated region)
TMS Madrid - Indoor Hard (Spain is a tennis superpower and deserves a big event)
Masters Cup - Change location every year with the 4 grand slam cities Melbourne, Paris, London and New York not being allowed to host the event.


Couldn't have put it better myself :yeah:

The problem with grass court tournaments is that the game is boring as hell to watch

And that is not an opinion, am I right? ;)

Fumus
03-14-2007, 03:31 PM
The top guys, don't even bother to showup to Hamburg anyways. Wasn't the final Stepanek and Robredo last year!?...lol

Make Hamburg after...RG...move RG up a week...and put TMS HAMBURG on grass the week after queen/halle.

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 03:37 PM
The top guys, don't even bother to showup to Hamburg anyways. Wasn't the final Stepanek and Robredo last year!?...lol

Make Hamburg after...RG...move RG up a week...and put TMS HAMBURG on grass the week after queen/halle.

Yes, nice one genius like Hamburg are going to spend all that cash to rip up the claycourts, then if they are smart lay a sandbase which helps the grass for better draininage when it gets the inevitable rain in Hamburg.

Seems that logistics is something most people can't get a grip of. If they are going have a TMS on grass, then the season has to extended by 1 or 2 weeks.

Don't give me this bullshit about Federer and Halle. Has his preparation worked for Wimbledon? Good enough.

Yappa
03-14-2007, 03:39 PM
The top guys, don't even bother to showup to Hamburg anyways. Wasn't the final Stepanek and Robredo last year!?...lol

Make Hamburg after...RG...move RG up a week...and put TMS HAMBURG on grass the week after queen/halle.

I don't like Hamburg myself, but I have to admit that in 2005, Hamburg had a quite nice draw with players such as Federer, Agassi, Roddick, Haas etc.

shotgun
03-14-2007, 03:53 PM
Good initiative by Rafa. :yeah:

These tournaments are among the most traditional ones in the tour, downgrading them would be one more piss on the sport by Mr. Disney and co.

I support the idea of a grass TMS, then again if two of three clay TMS tournaments have to be downgraded, it's only fair that 2 of the 4 outdoor HC TMS tournaments are downgraded too.

All_Slam_Andre
03-14-2007, 03:56 PM
I personally think that the the gap between the French Open and Wimbledon, grasscourt TMS or not, should be extended by a week. Possibly the French Open should start a week earlier,with the world team cup event and TMS Hamburg being scrapped. That way the top players would still have a week to rest between Rome and Roland Garros. Or Wimbledon should start a week later with the shitty Newport, Gstaad and Bastad events being scrapped or moved. I'm not sure which of two would be easier or more logistic but so long as one of them is implemented I would be happy. Even if there wasn't a grass court TMS, Queen's and Halle could then take place in the 2nd of the 3 weeks between the slams, giving the players who went deep at Roland Garros a week to rest and recuperate.

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 04:01 PM
Båstad best IS event on tour, Gstaad and Newport both are very historical events as well, they aren't the problem at all. It's too much hardcourt tennis, but we all know why that's the case.

oz_boz
03-14-2007, 04:01 PM
the shitty Newport, Gstaad and Bastad events being scrapped or moved

Hey! :( Båstad has a very good reputation.

GWH, why would the season have to be extended with a grass TMS? Aren't most TMS tournaments one week long?

sondraj06
03-14-2007, 04:06 PM
The problem is no body wants to give an inch, just when you think you have something that might work, some one has a problem because the season will be to long or too short. You can't move this tourney or grand slam here because that would be stupid for various already stated reasons. Or If some change did happen the biggest thing would be that no one wants to give up their fav tourney. Nothing is going to happen because no one wants to lose anything but everyone wants change.

And by the way I don't want them to lose cincy so i guess I would counted amongst that group

All_Slam_Andre
03-14-2007, 04:07 PM
Fair enough I take back my criticism of Bastad :). I suppose Gstaad isn't a bad event either. I stand by my criticism of Newport though. Any event that gets a Neville Godwin-Martin Lee final really is in trouble

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 04:08 PM
Hey! :( Båstad has a very good reputation.

GWH, why would the season have to be extended with a grass TMS? Aren't most TMS tournaments one week long?

I said extend the grass season, not the overall season. There are tournaments that need to go, but like I said they have been talking for 25 years about changing the schedule, lets see if they follow through.

Fumus
03-14-2007, 04:17 PM
Yes, nice one genius like Hamburg are going to spend all that cash to rip up the claycourts, then if they are smart lay a sandbase which helps the grass for better draininage when it gets the inevitable rain in Hamburg.

Seems that logistics is something most people can't get a grip of. If they are going have a TMS on grass, then the season has to extended by 1 or 2 weeks.

Don't give me this bullshit about Federer and Halle. Has his preparation worked for Wimbledon? Good enough.

F-that man, I am talking about the way it should be. I don't give a fuck if Hamburg has to spend the money, I am not a tournament organizer. We need a grass TMS, it's been that way for awhile. The most prestigious surface to play tennis on doesn't have it's own master's tournament. That's bull.

Umm...yea sure it worked for Wimbledon, it also worked for him collecting fat pay-checks. Guaranteed he has more losses on grass if he plays at Queens and it makes that week so much more interesting and meaningful. Then again, if we had a grass TMS, I wouldn't really have a case...would I?

Merton
03-14-2007, 04:22 PM
I will believe news about downgrading Monte Carlo when I see it, Mr. Disney hasn't done anything really controversial so why would he disturb serious constituencies of the game? These are just ideas floating around to gauge the level of opposition. Once they see it is serious, nothing will happen.

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 04:23 PM
F-that man, I am talking about the way it should be. I don't give a fuck if Hamburg has to spend the money, I am not a tournament organizer. We need a grass TMS, it's been that way for awhile. The most prestigious surface to play tennis on doesn't have it's own master's tournament. That's bull.

It's not the most prestigious surface. To you it maybe, but not to everyone in the global tennis community. They have Wimbledon that's a big enough event, if they are going to have a grass TMS, then Hamburg is far from the place to have one, just use a bit of sense.

Umm...yea sure it worked for Wimbledon, it also worked for him collecting fat pay-checks. Guaranteed he has more losses on grass if he plays at Queens and it makes that week so much more interesting and meaningful. Then again, if we had a grass TMS, I wouldn't really have a case...would I?

Yes, Wimbledon is the only thing that counts in grasscourt tennis, and that's all that the players who like playing on grass want to peak for. All TMS events are glorified warm ups in reality.

Oh yes Federer needs the money, so no shit you are going to go back to a place where you have had success. You aren't really thinking are you?

oz_boz
03-14-2007, 04:23 PM
I said extend the grass season, not the overall season.

Still don't get it. Make Halle or Queens a TMS, would that have to extend the number of days they are played on? Many TMS are one week long.

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 04:26 PM
Still don't get it. Make Halle or Queens a TMS, would that have to extend the number of days they are played on? Many TMS are one week long.

I think the season is too long, the overall season that is and has been for ages.

For one if they are going to make it a TMS event, then they would have 2 events after RG, then the TMS, then another 2 or a 48 draw the week before Wimbledon, therefore extending the grass season by a week. To do that, they will have to take from somewhere else and that should be the hardcourt events.

All_Slam_Andre
03-14-2007, 04:32 PM
I have always wondered why Spain has never had a claycourt TMS considering it is easily the no.1 nation on the surface. In 2001 when one of the German TMS events was transferred to Spain for the 2002 season, I was surprised that Stuttgart didn't stay and Hamburg's TMS status wasn't given to Barcelona.

Fumus
03-14-2007, 04:34 PM
It's not the most prestigious surface. To you it maybe, but not to everyone in the global tennis community. They have Wimbledon that's a big enough event, if they are going to have a grass TMS, then Hamburg is far from the place to have one, just use a bit of sense.



Yes, Wimbledon is the only thing that counts in grasscourt tennis, and that's all that the players who like playing on grass want to peak for. All TMS events are glorified warm ups in reality.

Oh yes Federer needs the money, so no shit you are going to go back to a place where you have had success. You aren't really thinking are you?

No no you got me. I'm really not thinking...OOOooo...noo...what the fuck! Seriously man, grass court should be a longer season, there should be a tournament with all the top players. You don't like hamburg fine, make QUEENS or HALLE the TMS. Who cares!? Yes Federer, plays Halle every year because he gets the $$, everyone and their brother knows Queens is the most prestigious tournament with all the best players in the world. You are right, TMS's are glorified warm-ups...well except when they are not like right now. TMS are a great way to build points and rankings, they offer the second highest points and cash payout in professional tennis. For players that do play well on grass, I think it's only fair that they have an opportunity to collect their share of points and ranking that the clay courters have been taking for years. That said I am just asking for one big tourney here, it doesn't have to be a long season baby.

Bobby
03-14-2007, 04:39 PM
All TMS events are glorified warm ups in reality.



Now that's an interesting opinion. Doesn't make much sense. Indian Wells and Miami are warm ups for........ what? Roland Garros!?

All_Slam_Andre
03-14-2007, 04:40 PM
Despite what many people like to think, Halle is just as big an event as Queen's. The fields are pretty similar in strength and offer the same amount of ranking points. How anyone can say that Federer is cowardly to play in Halle is beyond me. By that logic you could say that Roddick and Hewitt chicken out of playing in Halle as they are too scared of being whipped by Federer.

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 04:42 PM
No no you got me. I'm really not thinking...OOOooo...noo...what the fuck! Seriously man, grass court should be a longer season, there should be a tournament with all the top players. You don't like hamburg fine, make QUEENS or HALLE the TMS. Who cares!? Yes Federer, plays Halle every year because he gets the $$, everyone and their brother knows Queens is the most prestigious tournament with all the best players in the world. You are right, TMS's are glorified warm-ups...well except when they are not like right now. TMS are a great way to build points and rankings, they offer the second highest points and cash payout in professional tennis. For players that do play well on grass, I think it's only fair that they have an opportunity to collect their share of points and ranking that the clay courters have been taking for years. That said I am just asking for one big tourney here, it doesn't have to be a long season baby.

Hamburg has had problems obviously, but that is cause the ATP haven't put it in the right place.

So why mention Federer and $ it's irrelevant, it's not like these top players are going to play for nothing are they? Queens would have to do a lot of work facilities wise to hold a TMS, but you don't think about these things and would they do it, if they weren't guaranteed that level. Federer wins Wimbledon goo enough.

If you want to see a grass TMS fine, but there is no point whining about Federer playing Halle and unlike most of the people playing on grass, he is actually in Paris in the 2nd week not as a tourist either.

As for the points and whining about claycourters it's old. Players have 13 major events and 5 optionals and they can be made up on ay surface or have you forgotten about that? It's ok for guys to do it indoors and hardcourts, but people bitch that's only claycourt players do this.

MaryWalsh
03-14-2007, 04:43 PM
This is off-the cuff, something of a sketch of some ideas I would like to see happen:

AO followed by the hardcourt season with 3 AMS events, including IW, Miami, Toronto/Montreal, and the USO.

Then a bit of a respite, followed by the claycourt season, with 3 European AMS events, including Rome and MC and one other, finishing with RG.

Then on to the grass season. This too will be European in location, and include TWO AMS events (radical, I know) followed by Wimbledon.

After that, players can go to events around the world at their discretion. AMS events around the world would be nice, but I think the mandatory travel is too hard on the players. Though travel for players from Asia, etc, is hard on them with my plan. And I expect to see more and more great players coming from Asia in the coming years.

I think that carpet should not have an AMS. It is a dangerous surface IMO and should be optional.

There are tons of flaws in this program and there are tons of flaws as it stands now. Lots of places get short-changed, such as South America, which deserves a clay AMS. But I just don't think it can happen if the clay season is to be centered in Europe, which for now at least, preserves some tradition.

It might also be a good idea for there to be a limit of events placed on the top players, who tend to go deeper into the tournaments and are more at risk for fatigue/iinjuries (at least many of them are), but are also under huge pressures to appear everywhere around the globe. The slams and AMS wouid be mandatory, but there would be a limit to the number of additional events.

Even if this were followed, there is the DC in the middle of everything, and the Masters Cup taking place in what should be the off-season.

Beyond this sketch, a complete solution to travel, fatigue, surface change, weather and seasons, a more globally-inclusive tour, a true off-season, and tradition - - - doesn't quite fit into my brain.

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 04:43 PM
Now that's an interesting opinion. Doesn't make much sense. Indian Wells and Miami are warm ups for........ what? Roland Garros!?

Yes, I am still wondering what they are there for to be honest.

All_Slam_Andre
03-14-2007, 04:48 PM
Is there any need for 2 masters series events between the US Open and Masters Cup, as the top players are absolutely exhausted by that time of the year anyway? Maybe 1 TMS in October would suffice.

Fumus
03-14-2007, 04:50 PM
Hamburg has had problems obviously, but that is cause the ATP haven't put it in the right place.

So why mention Federer and $ it's irrelevant, it's not like these top players are going to play for nothing are they? Queens would have to do a lot of work facilities wise to hold a TMS, but you don't think about these things and would they do it, if they weren't guaranteed that level. Federer wins Wimbledon goo enough.

If you want to see a grass TMS fine, but there is no point whining about Federer playing Halle and unlike most of the people playing on grass, he is actually in Paris in the 2nd week not as a tourist either.

As for the points and whining about claycourters it's old. Players have 13 major events and 5 optionals and they can be made up on ay surface or have you forgotten about that? It's ok for guys to do it indoors and hardcourts, but people bitch that's only claycourt players do this.

GWH...I just don't know...I just don't friggin know! I think a grass court AMS would be special, and it would be a nice event to have to collect ranking, and get an idea of who's in good form. I mean we have a million events on everything else, why not just one more on grass. Federer doesn't play in Queens he hides in Halle but you are right it doesn't matter because Wimbledon is the only place where results count. It's my job to whine, and yes, the same people who are good on grass are same people for the most part that do well indoors...so it might just be same people...but it's not exactly the same surface.

Dougie
03-14-2007, 04:53 PM
Yes, I am still wondering what they are there for to be honest.

Maybe to get the top players show up in the same tournament more often than 4 times a year..?

bavaria100
03-14-2007, 04:57 PM
I have always wondered why Spain has never had a claycourt TMS considering it is easily the no.1 nation on the surface. In 2001 when one of the German TMS events was transferred to Spain for the 2002 season, I was surprised that Stuttgart didn't stay and Hamburg's TMS status wasn't given to Barcelona.

Reason number 1: Tiriac was the tournament director in Stuttgart and he only thinks and cares about $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Reason number 2: Stuttgart TMS had horrible attendance numbers. I think only 34000 people went to the tournament in 2001.

Bobby
03-14-2007, 04:58 PM
Yes, I am still wondering what they are there for to be honest.

I see what you mean. Personally I like TMS events. Bigger draws and good matches. Nothing wrong with that. But ultimately they are about money. Whoever has the facilities and the money, can eventually organize one. Whether the event has a good spot in the calendar,doesn't have that much of a meaning.

It's a bit like Formula one. Why do they have a race in Bahrain? Because they can have the tobacco product stickers in there and they can't do it in Europe. Only, Bahrain is a small island with only one city. The closest country is Saudi-Arabia and they don't really care about formula one.

About the grass court TMS. Not a good idea in my opinion. Grass is the king of surfaces for many. But most of the people don't like watching grass court tennis all that much. At least I think so.

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 04:58 PM
Maybe to get the top players show up in the same tournament more often than 4 times a year..?

They are nothing events in that they don't lead to anything. Fumus is right that there should be a grass TMS event leading into Wimbledon and there should be one leading into the Aus Open.

At least the other 7 have a purpose in leading up to a major event, whereas IW and Miami are just to have more big events in North America and they are the youngest ones and Madrid is the mistress of TMS events.

All_Slam_Andre
03-14-2007, 04:59 PM
Reason number 1: Tiriac was the tournament director in Stuttgart and he only thinks and cares about $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Reason number 2: Stuttgart TMS had horrible attendance numbers. I think only 34000 people went to the tournament in 2001.

Thanks for the info

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 04:59 PM
Reason number 1: Tiriac was the tournament director in Stuttgart and he only thinks and cares about $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Reason number 2: Stuttgart TMS had horrible attendance numbers. I think only 34000 people went to the tournament in 2001.

Tiriac is so crooked he makes Berlusconi look straight.

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 05:04 PM
GWH...I just don't know...I just don't friggin know! I think a grass court AMS would be special, and it would be a nice event to have to collect ranking, and get an idea of who's in good form. I mean we have a million events on everything else, why not just one more on grass. Federer doesn't play in Queens he hides in Halle but you are right it doesn't matter because Wimbledon is the only place where results count. It's my job to whine, and yes, the same people who are good on grass are same people for the most part that do well indoors...so it might just be same people...but it's not exactly the same surface.

Of course it's whining about Federer playing in Queens. One he likes playing in German-speaking countries and Weber has been good to him there, it's not really hard to see why Federer plays there. So if you are going to bitch about that, then why is it Ok for the Americans to duck the clay events in Europe like Monte Carlo and Barcelona even? The previous generation went over and played there.

It's easy enough to see who is in form and who isn't. It's always the same few on grass, it doesn't change that much.

Dougie
03-14-2007, 05:07 PM
They are nothing events in that they don't lead to anything. Fumus is right that there should be a grass TMS event leading into Wimbledon and there should be one leading into the Aus Open.

At least the other 7 have a purpose in leading up to a major event, whereas IW and Miami are just to have more big events in North America and they are the youngest ones and Madrid is the mistress of TMS events.

I donīt see why TMS-events should lead to anything? They are quality tournaments that gather the top players, and thatīs fine! Making them warm-up tournaments to Grand Slams would only reduce their status.

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 05:11 PM
I donīt see why TMS-events should lead to anything? They are quality tournaments that gather the top players, and thatīs fine! Making them warm-up tournaments to Grand Slams would only reduce their status.

So Monte Carlo and Rome are diminished cause they are preps for RG? Come on don't give me that, it's only Mr.Disney who really thinks that.

Canada and Cincinatti lead up to the US Open? Their status hasn't diminshed because of it, but these are among the big 5 old events.

Hamburg has been scheduled poorly and as for Madrid/Paris well it's the last chance for some to make a play for the Masters, but Bercy has had its problems as well.

Dougie
03-14-2007, 05:12 PM
At least the other 7 have a purpose in leading up to a major event, whereas IW and Miami are just to have more big events in North America and they are the youngest ones and Madrid is the mistress of TMS events.

Personally I agree that there are too many big events in the USA. But without IW and Miami the season would be pretty dead at the moment.

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 05:16 PM
Personally I agree that there are too many big events in the USA. But without IW and Miami the season would be pretty dead at the moment.

The season is too long anyway.

Dougie
03-14-2007, 05:24 PM
So Monte Carlo and Rome are diminished cause they are preps for RG? Come on don't give me that, it's only Mr.Disney who really thinks that.

Canada and Cincinatti lead up to the US Open? Their status hasn't diminshed because of it, but these are among the big 5 old events.
l.

Didnīt you just say yourself that all TMS-events are glorified warm-upīs? And now you say they are big old events..?:confused:

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 05:30 PM
Didnīt you just say yourself that all TMS-events are glorified warm-upīs? And now you say they are big old events..?:confused:

Monte Carlo, Rome, Hamburg, Canada and Cincinatti are some of the oldest tournaments around and they have had many great winners in the past, this does not change the fact that they are higher level warm up events for RG and the US Open.

Dougie
03-14-2007, 05:37 PM
The season is too long anyway.

But you still want a TMS-event before the AO?

Dougie
03-14-2007, 05:40 PM
Monte Carlo, Rome, Hamburg, Canada and Cincinatti are some of the oldest tournaments around and they have had many great winners in the past, this does not change the fact that they are higher level warm up events for RG and the US Open.

Fair enough..Like I said, I donīt see why ALL TMS-events should be warm ups, but thatīs just my opinion.

Action Jackson
03-14-2007, 05:47 PM
But you still want a TMS-event before the AO?

It's not hard to work out. Shorten the length of the overall season, some clay and hardcourt events would have to go, there are too many indoor events as well.

The season could easily last 40 weeks inclusive of TMC and all Davis Cup fixtures, but that topic has been done to death and if they really gave a fuck about the players, then they would have a proper break, do a full on pre-season physical session and then have a base for the next year.

This is pie in the sky, they aren't going to do it, cause they are all talk.

If you want to know, it's like if you want the best playing preparation for the Slams, then it's going to be TMS events, isn't it? That's why they should lead up to one of the majors.

Dougie
03-14-2007, 05:59 PM
It's not hard to work out. Shorten the length of the overall season, some clay and hardcourt events would have to go, there are too many indoor events as well.

The season could easily last 40 weeks inclusive of TMC and all Davis Cup fixtures, but that topic has been done to death and if they really gave a fuck about the players, then they would have a proper break, do a full on pre-season physical session and then have a base for the next year.

This is pie in the sky, they aren't going to do it, cause they are all talk.

If you want to know, it's like if you want the best playing preparation for the Slams, then it's going to be TMS events, isn't it? That's why they should lead up to one of the majors.

You have some good points!

zicofirol
03-14-2007, 06:16 PM
does anyone know if the atp has had any talk of trying to get a grass TMS? is it on the "agenda"

Fumus
03-14-2007, 06:35 PM
Of course it's whining about Federer playing in Queens. One he likes playing in German-speaking countries and Weber has been good to him there, it's not really hard to see why Federer plays there. So if you are going to bitch about that, then why is it Ok for the Americans to duck the clay events in Europe like Monte Carlo and Barcelona even? The previous generation went over and played there.

It's easy enough to see who is in form and who isn't. It's always the same few on grass, it doesn't change that much.

Maybe it wouldn't be if there was a grass AMS. That would mean more money, higher stakes, players would have to train on it more and treat it like a prestigious event instead of shafting the whole season like they have in the past because there is no money or point in it.

Conversely you bring up the Americans dodging Monte Carlo, but this has to do more with the travel. If an American leaves to go to Monte Carlo, he's away from home from the states, that much longer, I mean the clay season is long enough. Right after RG, you have the grass court tournies so it's not like you can go home and rest. So starting with MC that's about 3 months away from home. That's why the American's don't play there, because there are 3 friggin' clay tournies back to back.

nobama
03-14-2007, 06:44 PM
Personally I agree that there are too many big events in the USA. But without IW and Miami the season would be pretty dead at the moment.Plus IW draws huge crowds (and I'm assuming Miami does too). I've heard this year IW had record crowds and may top out at 300,000+ for the entire tournament. Makes no sense to me to get rid of any tournament that draws good crowds, can sell out just because there's too many tournaments in North America.

ExpectedWinner
03-14-2007, 06:45 PM
So starting with MC that's about 3 months away from home. That's why the American's don't play there, because there are 3 friggin' clay tournies back to back.

:rolleyes: Most players are 8- 10 month away from home.

shotgun
03-14-2007, 06:51 PM
More or less one year ago, I posted a suggestion of a grass season that would be one-week longer than the current one:

After Roland Garros:

- Newport/Halle
- Queen's TMS
- Nottingham/St. Hertogenbosch
- Wimbledon

It's quite simple, no grass tournaments would have to be removed, nor new ones would have to be created. Queen's would be upgraded to a TMS event, Newport would be moved a few weeks back (no point to hold it after Wimbledon), and, of course, one calendar-week would have to be scrapped, preferably one of the nine existing TMS events.

Clara Bow
03-14-2007, 06:52 PM
Conversely you bring up the Americans dodging Monte Carlo, but this has to do more with the travel. If an American leaves to go to Monte Carlo, he's away from home from the states, that much longer, I mean the clay season is long enough. Right after RG, you have the grass court tournies so it's not like you can go home and rest. So starting with MC that's about 3 months away from home. That's why the American's don't play there, because there are 3 friggin' clay tournies back to back.

To continue on with Expected Winner's comments, some players - such as the South Americans- are away from home for a much larger part of the year. Outside of the the clay court swing in Feb/March- there is nothing there. And some players (it looks like JMDP will be one) don't even really play those.

NicoFan
03-14-2007, 06:54 PM
Conversely you bring up the Americans dodging Monte Carlo, but this has to do more with the travel. If an American leaves to go to Monte Carlo, he's away from home from the states, that much longer, I mean the clay season is long enough. Right after RG, you have the grass court tournies so it's not like you can go home and rest. So starting with MC that's about 3 months away from home. That's why the American's don't play there, because there are 3 friggin' clay tournies back to back.

I'm so sick of hearing this argument.

Why should the Americans be different from anyone else. Ask the South Americans how many times they can go home. Or the Australians. Or the few players from Asia. Even the Europeans - I don't hear Lord Carlos whining about how he's away from home a long time after playing in the LA swing and now being in the U.S. for both IW and Miami.

There are so many tournaments in the US where they can be near home - there is no reason why Andy, James and company can't get themselves across the pond a couple times of year and play.

NicoFan
03-14-2007, 06:58 PM
Plus IW draws huge crowds (and I'm assuming Miami does too). I've heard this year IW had record crowds and may top out at 300,000+ for the entire tournament. Makes no sense to me to get rid of any tournament that draws good crowds, can sell out just because there's too many tournaments in North America.

Too much common sense in this post...someone please ban this woman. :lol: :lol:

And yes, Miami does pull great crowds. Ditto Cincy that everyone always wants to get rid of as a Masters Series event.

CyBorg
03-14-2007, 07:08 PM
Sounds good. But when would be a good time for the Tokyo tournament? I think there are many countries which would deserve a TMS event. But it's very difficult to change the ATP calendar.

I say...

Start the indoor season with Tokyo (masters). Then another week of lesser events around Eurasia (Shaghai, Moscow, St. Petersburgh).
Then move to Europe for a week or two (Vienna, Lyon, Basel, etc). Then have the masters in Madrid.

Seems logical and reasonable schedule-wise.

CyBorg
03-14-2007, 07:09 PM
Really canīt see Queens as a masters event...A great tournament, no doubt about it. But itīs still more or less one of those "warm-up events" for the Wimbledon.

They can change that, I'm sure. It may take a bit of time to get used to.

Do you like Halle more?

Yappa
03-14-2007, 07:14 PM
If Hamburg doesn't remain a Masters Series tourney and the ATP decides to have a grass Masters, then it's gotta be Halle, simple as that.
But since we won't have a grass event, we don't have to worry about that anyways.

CyBorg
03-14-2007, 07:19 PM
I've adjusted mine slightly...

Indian Wells .. hard .. they should make this fun and hold it on green clay .. maybe I'm crazy .. I miss that surface

Miami .. hard .. let's face it - neither of these two are being relegated any time soon, so let's leave them as is

Monte Carlo .. clay .. just a great tournament and if I recall correctly its president is a big shot - it's staying as is

Rome .. clay .. maybe the ATP would like to have either Madrid or Barcelona here, but I just don't see how they can do it

Queen's .. grass .. maybe, maybe we could have a grass masters series in Germany, but there wouldn't be any history to back that up .. Queen's is a nice venue

Toronto/Montreal .. hard .. not just because I love going there .. Cincinnati is in the way, in my opinion .. yes, it has history but it can stay on as a lesser event .. besides three masters series in the summer sandwiched between Wimby and the US Open doesn't make sense .. most players would skip Cincy and it would become Hamburg II

Tokyo or Shanghai .. carpet .. first or second week of the indoor season, IMO .. have it followed by another week of tournaments in Asia and/or Russia, to complement the scheduling .. the Russians deserve a big event but they won't get it because of the weather

Madrid .. hard .. Spain deserves a major event and this is it

Masters Cup (Germany or Russia) .. carpet .. probably Germany - St. Petersburg is a wonderful city and deserves this for a few years but the Germans will get too bitchy:)

Yappa
03-14-2007, 07:22 PM
Yeah, we would. :devil:

And didn't someone say that there's no market in Japan and there's barely any interest in tennis? So China would be the only option for the Asian market.

CyBorg
03-14-2007, 07:24 PM
Yeah, we would. :devil:

And didn't someone say that there's no market in Japan and there's barely any interest in tennis? So China would be the only option for the Asian market.

That's fine with me. I just think Tokyo is a cool city.:)

shotgun
03-14-2007, 07:32 PM
Queen's has a bigger draw than Halle, it would probably be more ready to host a 64-draw TMS event.

Clara Bow
03-14-2007, 07:48 PM
Plus IW draws huge crowds (and I'm assuming Miami does too). I've heard this year IW had record crowds and may top out at 300,000+ for the entire tournament. Makes no sense to me to get rid of any tournament that draws good crowds, can sell out just because there's too many tournaments in North America.

Likewise- Monte Carlo also draws big crowds. So the same should be applied to there. MC is not a tournament they should get rid of.

Bobby
03-14-2007, 08:15 PM
Maybe it wouldn't be if there was a grass AMS. That would mean more money, higher stakes, players would have to train on it more and treat it like a prestigious event instead of shafting the whole season like they have in the past because there is no money or point in it.

Conversely you bring up the Americans dodging Monte Carlo, but this has to do more with the travel. If an American leaves to go to Monte Carlo, he's away from home from the states, that much longer, I mean the clay season is long enough. Right after RG, you have the grass court tournies so it's not like you can go home and rest. So starting with MC that's about 3 months away from home. That's why the American's don't play there, because there are 3 friggin' clay tournies back to back.


This is a bad argument. There are so many players who are away from home for the entire season. For example, Jarkko Nieminen has no tournaments in Finland, the closest one is in Sweden. He's never complained. And there are many, many others. Travelling is a major part of being a tennis professional.

All_Slam_Andre
03-14-2007, 08:36 PM
Regarding attendances, sure Cincinnati gets great attendances and has a lot of history, but so does Hamburg and virtually all of us want this event to lose it's TMS status, so Cincinnati shouldn't be immune to the chop.
Tennis is a global sport I do think that 1 grand slam and 3 TMS is slightly too many big tournaments for the USA to have. Florida should keep a TMS as statewise it is probably the tennis capital of the country with all the acadamies and great facilities. California should also have keep a TMS as this is also a tennis hotbed and the West Coast should host a big event. Therefore Cincinnati needs to go for me.

nobama
03-14-2007, 10:41 PM
Too much common sense in this post...someone please ban this woman. :lol: :lol:

And yes, Miami does pull great crowds. Ditto Cincy that everyone always wants to get rid of as a Masters Series event.Also I highly doubt the tours would get rid of an event that was propped up by the likes of Sampras, BJK and Chris Evert. According to the WTA roadmap IW will become a required event like Miami is now.

nobama
03-14-2007, 10:42 PM
Likewise- Monte Carlo also draws big crowds. So the same should be applied to there. MC is not a tournament they should get rid of.Correct.

Kalliopeia
03-14-2007, 11:30 PM
Regarding attendances, sure Cincinnati gets great attendances and has a lot of history, but so does Hamburg and virtually all of us want this event to lose it's TMS status, so Cincinnati shouldn't be immune to the chop.

Cincinnati is midwest...there are no other big tournaments anywhere in this area (the only other tournament I can think of in the area...or even anywhere that isn't on the east coast or west coast...is Indianapolis. :rolleyes:). It would be awful to lose it. They pull great audiences because people come from all over the region to go to it. It's really the only chance many of us have to see a big tournament.

alfonsojose
03-15-2007, 05:38 AM
Bye, Bye Hamburg. Welcome a new TMC in grass or carpet, no more hard courts

CyBorg
03-15-2007, 06:50 AM
Cincinnati is midwest...there are no other big tournaments anywhere in this area (the only other tournament I can think of in the area...or even anywhere that isn't on the east coast or west coast...is Indianapolis. :rolleyes:). It would be awful to lose it. They pull great audiences because people come from all over the region to go to it. It's really the only chance many of us have to see a big tournament.

Oh, yeah? Now you know how the Germans feel.;)

Hendu
03-15-2007, 07:00 AM
Oh, yeah? Now you know how the Germans feel.;)

how do the Germans feel?

not enough tournaments?

CyBorg
03-15-2007, 07:27 AM
how do the Germans feel?

not enough tournaments?

I don't know. They're never happy. Probably constipated from the potato salad.

Bobby
03-15-2007, 07:28 AM
Cincinnati is midwest...there are no other big tournaments anywhere in this area (the only other tournament I can think of in the area...or even anywhere that isn't on the east coast or west coast...is Indianapolis. :rolleyes:). It would be awful to lose it. They pull great audiences because people come from all over the region to go to it. It's really the only chance many of us have to see a big tournament.

Strange thinking. Do you think that we all should have a TMS event right next to where we live? You have three TMS events in your country, so stop complaining. It's ridiculous. Don't you thnk that the Russians for example deserve their first TMS-tournament... It's so irritating when people talk about an important issue, but only think about themselves. Only one perspective, their own...

mashamaniac
03-15-2007, 07:33 AM
so what about rome?

CyBorg
03-15-2007, 07:34 AM
Strange thinking. Do you think that we all should have a TMS event right next to where we live? You have three TMS events in your country, so stop complaining. It's ridiculous. Don't you thnk that the Russians for example deserve their first TMS-tournament... It's so irritating when people talk about an important issue, but only think about themselves. Only one perspective, their own...

Yeah - the Russians get royally screwed in all of this. Can't Putin pull some strings... err string someone up?

Hendu
03-15-2007, 07:40 AM
Strange thinking. Do you think that we all should have a TMS event right next to where we live? You have three TMS events in your country, so stop complaining. It's ridiculous. Don't you thnk that the Russians for example deserve their first TMS-tournament... It's so irritating when people talk about an important issue, but only think about themselves. Only one perspective, their own...

the Russians have two US$ 1.000.000 tournaments.

If they get big attendance figures then they could have an AMS tournament... although I'm not sure they do.

There are many countries in a worse position in quantity and quality of tournaments, that are more deserving of a big tournament.

nobama
03-15-2007, 07:52 AM
Strange thinking. Do you think that we all should have a TMS event right next to where we live? You have three TMS events in your country, so stop complaining. It's ridiculous. Don't you thnk that the Russians for example deserve their first TMS-tournament... It's so irritating when people talk about an important issue, but only think about themselves. Only one perspective, their own...And Europe has 5 TMS events, plus Mr Disney says TMC most likely will move to London. Is that fair? There is no such thing as fair. The tournaments will be where the $$ and the crowds are. Why do you think so many of the European golfers come and play on the PGA tour in the United States when they could be playing at home in Europe?

Bobby
03-15-2007, 07:52 AM
the Russians have two US$ 1.000.000 tournaments.

If they get big attendance figures then they could have an AMS tournament... although I'm not sure they do.

There are many countries in a worse position in quantity and quality of tournaments, that are more deserving of a big tournament.

Russia mayah ve been a bad example from me. Anyway, my point was that the Americans are the one group of people who really shouldn't complain.

Action Jackson
03-15-2007, 07:54 AM
And Europe has 5 TMS events, plus Mr Disney says TMC most likely will move to London. Is that fair? There is no such thing as fair. The tournaments will be where the $$ and the crowds are. Why do you think so many of the European golfers come and play on the PGA tour in the United States when they could be playing at home in Europe?

How is the PGA example relevant? Most of the top European players only go to the States to play the majors and skins events.

So Europe is one country now is it?

Hendu
03-15-2007, 07:54 AM
Russia mayah ve been a bad example from me. Anyway, my point was that the Americans are the one group of people who really shouldn't complain.

definitely.

The nearest big tournament to my home is 7.000 kms away, and we have 11 players in the top 100.

Action Jackson
03-15-2007, 08:06 AM
Conversely you bring up the Americans dodging Monte Carlo, but this has to do more with the travel. If an American leaves to go to Monte Carlo, he's away from home from the states, that much longer, I mean the clay season is long enough. Right after RG, you have the grass court tournies so it's not like you can go home and rest. So starting with MC that's about 3 months away from home. That's why the American's don't play there, because there are 3 friggin' clay tournies back to back.

No, it's a lazy excuse and there are Aussies and South Americans who have to travel further and are away from home for longer.

Regenbogen
03-15-2007, 08:17 AM
They should keep Monte Carlo, and the whole switching Hamburg with Halle makes sense to me.

I hope no one decides to get rid of Cincy :scared: :sobbing:

And for the record, Cincinnati only has one t.

Dougie
03-15-2007, 08:24 AM
definitely.

The nearest big tournament to my home is 7.000 kms away, and we have 11 players in the top 100.

That pretty much tells the whole story.

Bobby
03-15-2007, 08:24 AM
And Europe has 5 TMS events, plus Mr Disney says TMC most likely will move to London. Is that fair? There is no such thing as fair. The tournaments will be where the $$ and the crowds are. Why do you think so many of the European golfers come and play on the PGA tour in the United States when they could be playing at home in Europe?

Maybe there is no such thing as fair. But you are turning the thing upside down. I'm not sure if you know, but Europe is not a single country. We don't share a common language.Therefore, saying that Europe has 5 TMS events makes no sense. So what, US is one country with three. Also, "home in Europe" makes no sense, since we are not one country. Do you think that the Estonians feel home when they are in Norway? No, the currency is different, language is different and so on.

Castafiore
03-15-2007, 11:25 AM
The tournaments will be where the $$ and the crowds are. Why do you think so many of the European golfers come and play on the PGA tour in the United States when they could be playing at home in Europe?
The Monte Carlo event is where the money and where the crowds are but they're still talking about removing the TMS tag.


The discussion a bit earlier was about some players having to play away from home a lot. That's not only about distance travelled IMO. If you go from Cincy to Toronto, you're still talking the same language for example. If you go from Rome to Paris, you have to get used to a different language (or see to it that you have the right translators around). That's quite a bit to get used to as well if you're playing away from home, I guess.

Jogy
03-15-2007, 12:13 PM
then why is it Ok for the Americans to duck the clay events in Europe like Monte Carlo and Barcelona even?
why is it even relevant to mention Barcelona, not even a required tournament and only optional. Makes no sense. As soon as all South Americans and claycourters play Wimbledon and don't hide with some reasons to have a holiday or week free, then it is fine. But often they don't prepare for it, but at same time you require Americans to play full claycourt season.

====
Fumus: I think you are wrong about Queens being more ready for TMS as Gerry Weber. Halle already has already more bonus features like hotels, traffic connections and big area with super stadium than Queen's. To be fair we need a lawn Masters, but Halle would be more ready for it.

Aphex
03-15-2007, 12:39 PM
Sweden needs a TMS again and a major. It's only fair everybody should come to Sweden. We are after all the home of awesomely great players as the Toad. And they should all be in Stockholm so I don't have to travel.

All_Slam_Andre
03-15-2007, 12:46 PM
It's not so difficult to understand that the person you're responding to wasn't saying Europe was a single country. The point being raised is that in actual area Europe is only slightly larger than the US - and I'm not even including Canada, so why is it difficult to understand that North America has 4 TMS events when Europe has 5?

You say we should "stop complaining" about the tournaments we have, but for me to go to either Cincy or Toronto from where I live in California would mean a trip of well over 2,000 miles; from Paris to Rome it's just about 900.

The comparison of the US to Europe was being made because the size and the distance between tournaments were being compared; it was fairly obvious that no one was trying to paint Europe as one homogenous country.

Yes but Europe has a far bigger population than the USA, and so there are far more Europeans who don't have access to a big tournament than Americans. Plus it is say that there is far more interest in the sport in Europe than North America. I really don't think that the Americans would be in any position to complain if they lost one of their TMS events. 1 grand slam, 2 TMS and a host of International Series for one single country to host would be more than fair.

Action Jackson
03-15-2007, 01:10 PM
why is it even relevant to mention Barcelona, not even a required tournament and only optional. Makes no sense. As soon as all South Americans and claycourters play Wimbledon and don't hide with some reasons to have a holiday or week free, then it is fine. But often they don't prepare for it, but at same time you require Americans to play full claycourt season.

Yes, so the time between Valencia- RG is the same as Queens/Halle- Wimbledon now is it? If the respective surface seasons were the same timeframe, and the same thing happens then it would be an issue.

Just to make sure you understand clearly I will bold it for you. Unless legitimately injured or something unavoidable then there is no reason to miss a Slam whether you like the surface or not. Newsflash most of the Spaniards and South Americans played Wimbledon last year and have in recent times, none of the need to go on the outdated thinking when Corretja, Costa and Guga didn't play is continued now.

CyBorg
03-15-2007, 01:44 PM
They should keep Monte Carlo, and the whole switching Hamburg with Halle makes sense to me.

I hope no one decides to get rid of Cincy :scared: :sobbing:

And for the record, Cincinnati only has one t.

They could keep Cincy. Queen's in June, Canada and Cincy in August. But again - they're back-to-back and one of them may just turn into Hamburg II because of it.

Perhaps they could be spread out a bit more - one in July, the other in August. But, again, most players like the time off after Wimbledon and the tournament organizers wouldn't be pleased having to abide by new dates.

The idea of a grass court masters series definitely screws things up a bit.

I think we can all agree that having masters series in back-to-back weeks is not a good idea and should change.

Hendu
03-15-2007, 04:09 PM
World map:

Africa - 1 Tournament - 1 International Series. (in 1 country)

Asia - 10 Tournaments - 1 Masters Cup, 9 International Series. (in 7 countries)

Europe - 34 Tournaments - 2 Grand Slams, 5 Masters Series, 26 International Series, 1 World Team Championship. (in 14 countries)

North America - 16 Tournaments - 1 Grand Slam, 4 Masters Series, 11 International Series. (in 3 countries)

Oceania - 4 Tournaments - 1 Grand Slam, 3 International Series. (in 2 countries)

South America - 3 Tournaments - 3 International Series. (in 3 countries)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1 Africa

1 Morocco
Casablanca

10 Asia

2 China
Beijing
Tennis Masters Cup

2 India
Chennai
Mumbai

1 Japan
Tokyo

1 Qatar
Doha

2 Russia
Moscow
St. Petersburg

1 Thailand
Bangkok

1 UAE
Dubai

34 Europe

3 Austria
Poertschach
Kitzbuhel
Vienna

2 Croatia
Zagreb
Umag

3 England
London / Queen's Club
Nottingham
Wimbledon

5 France
Marseille
Roland Garros
Metz
Lyon
ATP Masters Series Paris

4+1 Germany
Munich
ATP Masters Series Hamburg
World Team Championship
Halle
Stuttgart

2 Italy
ATP Masters Series Rome
Palermo

1 Monaco
ATP Masters Series Monte Carlo

3 Netherlands
Rotterdam
's-Hertogenbosch
Amersfoort

1 Poland
Sopot

1 Portugal
Estoril

1 Romania
Bucharest

3 Spain
Valencia
Barcelona
ATP Masters Series Madrid

2 Sweden
Bastad
Stockholm

2 Switzerland
Gstaad
Basel

16 North America

1 Canada
ATP Masters Series Canada

1 Mexico
Acapulco

14 USA
Delray Beach
San Jose
Memphis
Las Vegas
ATP Masters Series Indian Wells
ATP Masters Series Miami
Houston
Newport
Los Angeles
Indianapolis
Washington
ATP Masters Series Cincinnati
New Haven
US Open

4 Oceania

3 Australia
Adelaide
Sydney
Australian Open

1 New Zealand
Auckland

3 South America

1 Argentina
Buenos Aires

1 Brazil
Costa Do Sauipe

1 Chile
Vina del Mar

NicoFan
03-15-2007, 04:52 PM
World map:

Europe - 34 Tournaments - 2 Grand Slams, 5 Masters Series, 26 International Series, 1 World Team Championship. (in 14 countries)

North America - 16 Tournaments - 1 Grand Slam, 4 Masters Series, 11 International Series. (in 3 countries)


I would be more than willing to give up a North American tournament - as along as Europe gives up 2 of theirs.

But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

In fact, they will get one more tournament when the Masters Cup moves to London.

The numbers don't lie.... :lol:

MaryWalsh
03-15-2007, 04:56 PM
Thanks for the breakdown Willy! I would be interested in what would be your ideal distribution of tournaments. And from other people around the globe also. :)

Action Jackson
03-15-2007, 04:57 PM
How many countries in Europe and how many in North America? Yes, exactly.

Action Jackson
03-15-2007, 04:58 PM
Thanks for the breakdown Willy! I would be interested in what would be your ideal distribution of tournaments. And from other people around the globe also. :)

This subject has been done to death so many times. I will try and find the thread for you.

MaryWalsh
03-15-2007, 05:01 PM
Thanks GWH. I have never seen it. But it may be worth revisiting even so, since things are under the gun now. And the sport is becoming ever more global, and this is going to continue.

NicoFan
03-15-2007, 05:10 PM
Doesn't matter how many countries there are in each region.

Both the European and North American regions have rich tennis histories. For decades, both have contributed legends to the game, support for the game in both sponsors and tennis federations, and obviously fan support.

Both deserve to have a large number of tournaments based on this history.

But obviously Europe has received the lion's share.

There is a need to move the game into other areas like Asia and Africa (not to mention South America which deserves more respect) - and both regions have to figure out how to equitably do that - and if that means some tournaments have to be moved, then so be it. But fans from the European region can't expect the North American region to give up everything while they give up nothing.

And the reason for this thread - clay court players shouldn't have to give up all their tournaments while the hardcourt players either gain in tournaments or keep all their tournaments.

Action Jackson
03-15-2007, 05:23 PM
Thanks GWH. I have never seen it. But it may be worth revisiting even so, since things are under the gun now. And the sport is becoming ever more global, and this is going to continue.

It's bumped on the 1st page under ATP calendar.

Aphex
03-15-2007, 05:56 PM
Seriously I think this discussion is utopian anyway. Does the ATP own the rights to the tournaments? I think no. I think they bought the Copenhagen tournamnent a couple of years ago. But I don't think they have the money to buy a Masters tournament like Hamburg for instance. Not by themselves. And if the holders of the rights don't want to sell, what happens then? Lawsuits? Good bye to even more money.:confused: