40% av Muslim youth wants Sharia [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

40% av Muslim youth wants Sharia

kapranos
03-06-2007, 06:02 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/29/nmuslims29.xml&DCMP=EMC-new_29012007

A bleak picture of a generation of young British Muslims radicalised by anti-Western views and misplaced multicultural policies is shown in a survey published today.

The study found disturbing evidence of young Muslims adopting more fundamentalist beliefs on key social and political issues than their parents or grandparents.


The study found disturbing evidence of young Muslims adopting more fundamentalist beliefs on key social and political issues
Forty per cent of Muslims between the ages of 16 and 24 said they would prefer to live under sharia law in Britain, a legal system based on the teachings of the Koran. The figure among over-55s, in contrast, was only 17 per cent.

In some countries, people found guilty under sharia law face penalties such as beheading, stoning, the severing of a hand or being lashed.

The study, by the Right-wing think-tank Policy Exchange, also found a significant minority who expressed backing for Islamic terrorism.

One in eight young Muslims said they admired groups such as al-Qa'eda that "are prepared to fight the West".

advertisementTurning to issues of faith, 36 per cent of the young people questioned said they believed that a Muslim who converts to another religion should be "punished by death." Among the over 55s, the figure is only 19 per cent.

Three out of four young Muslims would prefer Muslim women to "choose to wear the veil or hijab," compared to only a quarter of over-55s.

Support was also strong for Islamic schools, according to the Populus survey of 1,000 people commissioned by Policy Exchange.

Forty per cent of younger Muslims said they would want their children to attend an Islamic school, compared to only 20 per cent of over-55s.

Britain's foreign policies were a key issue among the Muslim population as a whole, with 58 per cent arguing that many of the world's problems are "a result of arrogant Western attitudes". However, knowledge of foreign affairs was sketchy, with only one in five knowing that Mahmoud Abbas was the Palestinian president.

The findings emerged as David Cameron, the Conservative leader, criticised the Government for trying to "bully" immigrant communities into feeling British by telling them to run up the Union flag in their gardens or spy on their children.

But in a speech today, Mr Cameron will warn the Muslim community that it cannot use the "screen of cultural sensitivity" to deny women their rights.

The Policy Exchange report, Living Together Apart: British Muslims and the Paradox of Multiculturalism ó says there is strong evidence of a "growing religiosity" among young Muslims, with an increasing minority firmly rejecting Western life.

Munira Mirza, the broadcaster and one of the authors of the report, argued that multicultural policies pursued by the Government had succeeded in making things worse, rather than better.

She said: "The emergence of a strong Muslim identity in Britain is, in part, a result of multi-cultural policies implemented since the 1980s which have emphasised difference at the expense of shared national identity and divided people along ethnic, religious and cultural lines.

"There is clearly a conflict within British Islam between a moderate majority that accepts the norms of British democracy and a growing minority that does not."

The report also raises questions about the scale of the problems created by Islamophobia, with 84 per cent of those questioned saying they believed they had been "treated fairly" in Britain.

There was also criticism of the decision by some councils to ban Christian symbols in case they offended Muslims or other communities.

Three quarters said it was wrong for a council to have banned an advert for a Christmas carol service.

Shahid Malik, the Muslim Labour MP for Dewsbury, said: "This report makes very disturbing reading and it vindicates the concern many of us have that we're not doing enough to confront this issue."

Baroness Uddin, the Muslim peer, said: "Unlike their parents, our young people feel that this is their country and are saying why are we being told we do not belong here.

"There is also a problem of a lack of opportunities. Some people have been brutalised by their experiences with the police and this war on terror."

In his speech in Birmingham today, Mr Cameron will criticise "simplistic" attempts at community cohesion, such as Gordon Brown's call for people to put up the Union flag.

But he will also challenge elements of the Muslim community for denying women access to work, education, politics and even to mosques.

In a move that will please the Tory Right, Mr Cameron will warn that urgent action must be taken to get a grip of an immigration system that is out of control.

"It's the same whether it's the white grandmother worried about groups of asylum seekers or an unemployed Sikh youngster who sees eastern Europeans filling all the jobs.

"The Government needs to be in control of the situation. We can only live together if there is proper integration.

"And you can't have proper integration if people are coming into Britain at a faster rate than we can cope with."

kapranos
03-06-2007, 06:07 PM
We need to start fighting Evil before it's too lated.

kapranos
03-06-2007, 07:12 PM
One in eight young Muslims said they admired groups such as al-Qa'eda that "are prepared to fight the West".

Turning to issues of faith, 36 per cent of the young people questioned said they believed that a Muslim who converts to another religion should be "punished by death."

Religion of peace. :haha: :haha: :haha:

alelysafina
03-06-2007, 07:55 PM
I think the main problem that lies within the Muslim community is the lack of integration especially in Europe. In the US there is more integration as a whole and you would never hear about 2nd or 3rd generation Muslims not speaking English like you would in some other countries because in the US if you are born here you are American simple as that.

Black Adam
03-06-2007, 09:10 PM
I don't get this:We live in their Country but we would like to live under the rules of Islam and be allowed to behead those who headbutt others, cut of the hands of wankers, stone to death women who cheat on their husbands and of course the rapists will have their members cut away. The British authorities should have a problem with this, since we would be providing quite a gore spectacle in their streets :yeah:

The U.K. isn't fully Islamic and I am not sure the population will find it pleasant living with people who practise the Sharia Law. What these youngsters forget is that their Parents came to the West running away from the conditions under the Sharia Law so that 20 years later their children would decide to go back to living under the Sharia Law. :rolleyes:

I got nothing against Islam but it's just this is an Idea doomed from the word go. Actually, Religions are the cause of most of our troubles on this planet. When you consider it, how many wars would have never taken place if Religions didn't exist? :o

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 09:15 PM
Actually, Religions are the cause of most of our troubles on this planet. When you consider it, how many wars would have never taken place if Religions didn't exist? :oI agree about religions, but I'm afraid there would always be a reason for fighting even if there were no religions...
It's something about the world's way of not getting overpopulated....

Chris 84
03-06-2007, 09:16 PM
The study, by the Right-wing think-tank Policy Exchange, also found a significant minority who expressed backing for Islamic terrorism.

What a surprise :)

RonE
03-06-2007, 09:17 PM
I got nothing against Islam but it's just this is an Idea doomed from the word go. Actually, Religions are the cause of most of our troubles on this planet. When you consider it, how many wars would have never taken place if Religions didn't exist? :o

Religions in and of themselves do not start wars- people do.

If not for the religions as we know them humans would have found some alternative dogmatic approaches to get people riled up and kill other people- it's basic human nature. :shrug:

Chris 84
03-06-2007, 09:18 PM
Actually, Religions are the cause of most of our troubles on this planet. When you consider it, how many wars would have never taken place if Religions didn't exist? :o

I don't agree.
Whils religion may not help matters, wars are generally fought for territory, power and money....in short for reasons of greed. Religion is often used to justify this, admittedly.

RonE
03-06-2007, 09:20 PM
I agree about religions, but I'm afraid there would always be a reason for fighting even if there were no religions...

Beat me to it :)


It's something about the world's way of not getting overpopulated....

Well look at it this way- the 20th century has seen some of the most horrific gruesome wars in the history of mankind due to the improved technology, yet at the same time it has also seen the biggest increase in worldwide population too.

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 09:20 PM
Religions are bad anyway, and the current version of Islam is probably the worst.

It used to be the religion of the enlightened, what has it become...

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 09:22 PM
Well look at it this way- the 20th century has seen some of the most horrific gruesome wars in the history of mankind due to the improved technology, yet at the same time it has also seen the biggest increase in worldwide population too.China and India were not involved in the two world wars, although the Chinese had their fair share of suffer at the hands of the Japanese...

Black Adam
03-06-2007, 09:24 PM
It's in human's nature to fight but of late, most of the fighting is over Religion and resources. "you have petrol but i don't like your religion so I am coming to take over" or " I hate your religion so there is no way you can even start thinking about nuclear power" etc. You are quite right, take away man's problems, man will always create new ones.

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 09:28 PM
It's in human's nature to fight but of late, most of the fighting is over Religion and resources. "you have petrol but i don't like your religion so I am coming to take over" or " I hate your religion so there is no way you can even start thinking about nuclear power" etc. You are quite right, take away man's problems, man will always create new ones.Well, before it was about political beliefs and economical philosophies.

Julio1974
03-06-2007, 09:29 PM
The problem of Europe is multiculturalism. Now, it's fashionable to defend the right of Muslims to live in Europe according to the same values they lived in their countries, no matter what those values are.

However, some of these values clearly contradict basic human rights, as interpreted by the European Court of Human Right. In fact, the contradiction between the Charia and the European Charter of Human Rights was expressly recognized by the European Court. The European Court especially emphasized these contradictions in the area of women rights and criminal law. That's why, the Court stated that it did not entail a violation of the European Charter of Human Rights the ban of a islamic political pary in Turkey which wanted to implement the Charia.

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 09:36 PM
Now, it's fashionable to defend the right of Muslims to live in Europe according to the same values they lived in their countries, no matter what those values are.

However, some of these values clearly contradict basic human rights, as interpreted by the European Court of Human Right.:yeah:

If you want to keep acting like a barbarian, stay in your homeland, shag your camels and abuse your women, don't come to a country where this kind of behavior is considered foul and then complain about discrimination.

Chris 84
03-06-2007, 09:43 PM
:yeah:

If you want to keep acting like a barbarian, stay in your homeland, shag your camels and abuse your women, don't come to a country where this kind of behavior is considered foul and then complain about discrimination.

The way in which the USA, the UK, and the rest of the "coalition" acted in Iraq was also barbaric.

It isn't just Muslim extremists who act in such a manner, our society is far from perfect itself.

kapranos
03-06-2007, 09:47 PM
The way in which the USA, the UK, and the rest of the "coalition" acted in Iraq was also barbaric.

It isn't just Muslim extremists who act in such a manner, our society is far from perfect itself.

Well even if you disagree with Iraq war, the point wasn't to kill innocents for fear or fun, like islamic terrorist attacks. Bush might be an idiot, but his goal for Iraq is stability, not chaos.

The last 10 years, most barbaric terrorist attacks were done by extreme Islamists. How come we don't see as many buddhist terrorist attacks?

Naide
03-06-2007, 09:47 PM
:yeah:

If you want to keep acting like a barbarian, stay in your homeland, shag your camels and abuse your women, don't come to a country where this kind of behavior is considered foul and then complain about discrimination.

:rolleyes: generalization, how pathetic is that

RonE
03-06-2007, 09:47 PM
The problem of Europe is multiculturalism. Now, it's fashionable to defend the right of Muslims to live in Europe according to the same values they lived in their countries, no matter what those values are.

However, some of these values clearly contradict basic human rights, as interpreted by the European Court of Human Right. In fact, the contradiction between the Charia and the European Charter of Human Rights was expressly recognized by the European Court. The European Court especially emphasized these contradictions in the area of women rights and criminal law. That's why, the Court stated that it did not entail a violation of the European Charter of Human Rights the ban of a islamic political pary in Turkey which wanted to implement the Charia.

The problem runs much deeper than that though. Here you have a group that has not been integrated into the host country- with the host country largely to blame for this- and so they do not feel as if they are part of this country. This pushes them away from the values of the host country since they are not accepted into it fully and because they adopt views which diverge further and further from that of the country there is less motivation to integrate them.

It's a vicious cycle and one that needs to be broken soon. Europe is a ticking time bomb and if these issues are not solved within the next 30 to 50 years, considering the negative growth among Christians in many of these countries and the exponential growth of Muslims Europe as we know it today may very well cease to exist...

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 09:49 PM
The way in which the USA, the UK, and the rest of the "coalition" acted in Iraq was also barbaric.

It isn't just Muslim extremists who act in such a manner, our society is far from perfect itself.Still, if you made a decision to become part of a certain society, accept its culture.

These people (or their parents) moved to the west out of their free will, they have to play the game accordingly.
They don't like it? Good, go back to your homeland.

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 09:51 PM
:rolleyes: generalization, how pathetic is thatI'm not sayin everyone is like that, the topic does not deal with the liberal ones.

kapranos
03-06-2007, 09:51 PM
The problem runs much deeper than that though. Here you have a group that has not been integrated into the host country- with the host country largely to blame for this- and so they do not feel as if they are part of this country. This pushes them away from the values of the host country since they are not accepted into it fully and because they adopt views which diverge further and further from that of the country there is less motivation to integrate them...

It's true the host country is partly to blame, but we are giving them a favor by welcoming them in our countries. They are the one who should ultimately make the effort to live according to our values.

A lot of Japanese struggle when they come to Europe. At worst they kill themselves instead of blowing up subways, trains, buildings, etc. It seems Islam fuels violence with their ambigious verses.

Naide
03-06-2007, 09:56 PM
I'm not sayin everyone is like that, the topic does not deal with the liberal ones.

it is good you point out they arent all like that
because we cant see it from what you write

religion has just been an excuse to human evilness and stupidity for 2OOO years whether you are muslim, jew or christian

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 10:03 PM
It's true the host country is partly to blame, but we are giving them a favor by welcoming them in our countries. They are the one who should ultimately make the effort to live according to our values.

A lot of Japanese struggle when they come to Europe. At worst they kill themselves instead of blowing up subways, trains, buildings, etc. It seems Islam fuels violence with their ambigious verses.That about sums it up perfectly.

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:04 PM
it is good you point out they arent all like that
because we cant see it from what you write

religion has just been an excuse to human evilness and stupidity for 2OOO years whether you are muslim, jew or christian

Theologically it's easier to justify the killing of non-believers with the Koran.

Muhammed (who, btw, was a pedophile) has been violent, contrary to Jesus. :worship:

Julio1974
03-06-2007, 10:05 PM
The way in which the USA, the UK, and the rest of the "coalition" acted in Iraq was also barbaric.

It isn't just Muslim extremists who act in such a manner, our society is far from perfect itself.

Western societies are far from perfect. But there is no need to destroy what it cost so much to achieve (freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, women rights, due process of law, etc etc). It's so amazing how the left fought for this values against the Catholic church and now some leftists feel sympathy for Islamic extremists just because they share their hatred towards the US.

Naide
03-06-2007, 10:08 PM
Theologically it's easier to justify the killing of non-believers with the Koran.

Muhammed (who, btw, was a pedophile) has been violent, contrary to Jesus. :worship:

:rolleyes: the fact that you believe in Jesus doesnt give you the right to insult the basics of other religions

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 10:12 PM
:rolleyes: the fact that you believe in Jesus doesnt give you the right to insult the basics of other religionsEspecially when Christianity used to be (and in some places still is) just as bad...

Chris 84
03-06-2007, 10:13 PM
Well even if you disagree with Iraq war, the point wasn't to kill innocents for fear or fun, like islamic terrorist attacks. Bush might be an idiot, but his goal for Iraq is stability, not chaos.

The last 10 years, most barbaric terrorist attacks were done by extreme Islamists. How come we don't see as many buddhist terrorist attacks?

I would say the most barbaric terrorist attacks were carried out by coalition forces, personally.
The point in killing innocent civilians was to win the war.
And Bush has one goal for Iraq, which is $$$......having a US-friendly puppet state in that area of the world is handy too.

Chris 84
03-06-2007, 10:14 PM
Still, if you made a decision to become part of a certain society, accept its culture.

These people (or their parents) moved to the west out of their free will, they have to play the game accordingly.
They don't like it? Good, go back to your homeland.

Many of these youngsters are just as "British" as I am.
Their home land is the UK, and they are entitled to their opinion the same as everyone else. Isn't that what is supposed to make places like the Uk so much better from Sharia states?

marti_228
03-06-2007, 10:15 PM
Well even if you disagree with Iraq war, the point wasn't to kill innocents for fear or fun, like islamic terrorist attacks. Bush might be an idiot, but his goal for Iraq is stability, not chaos.

The last 10 years, most barbaric terrorist attacks were done by extreme Islamists. How come we don't see as many buddhist terrorist attacks?


Sorry I say this but you're far from being an intelligent person if you think the terrorist attacks were/are/will be done just for fun.
You have something against the Islam in general. Not every islamic is a terrorist or support the terrorism.Generalizations can be dangerous.
Do you believe everything Bush says? Of course he is looking stability in Irak but that's because it is a chaos that he barely can control. Why is he increasing the amount of troops? Why is he losing support from other countries?
By the way, I'm against both the terrorist attacks and the war in Iraq.

scarecrows
03-06-2007, 10:15 PM
Muhammed (who, btw, was a pedophile) has been violent, contrary to Jesus. :worship:

wow, you almost convinced me with the way you said it

anyway, religions are useful for very little or for nothing

come and join the group of devoted atheists

Chris 84
03-06-2007, 10:16 PM
Western societies are far from perfect. But there is no need to destroy what it cost so much to achieve (freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, women rights, due process of law, etc etc). It's so amazing how the left fought for this values against the Catholic church and now some leftists feel sympathy for Islamic extremists just because they share their hatred towards the US.

I feel no sympathy towards extreme Muslim terrorists, and yes, "Western" societies have much to be proud of. They also have much to be ashamed of. And whils a Sharia-run UK would be a nightmare, the vast majority of Muslims in Western countries DO accept "our" laws.

Julio1974
03-06-2007, 10:16 PM
I would say the most barbaric terrorist attacks were carried out by coalition forces, personally.
The point in killing innocent civilians was to win the war.
And Bush has one goal for Iraq, which is $$$......having a US-friendly puppet state in that area of the world is handy too.

Although I consider the war in Iraw one the biggest mistakes the US ever made, most civilians in Iraq were killed by terrorist attacks done by other muslims.

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:17 PM
:rolleyes: the fact that you believe in Jesus doesnt give you the right to insult the basics of other religions

I don't believe in Jesus, but I'm just sayin' the truth about Muhammad. He was a murderer and and a pedophile. If the model is flawed, it's not surprising a lot of followers are flawed in their morality.

Naide
03-06-2007, 10:17 PM
wow, you almost convinced me with the way you said it

anyway, religions are useful for very little or for nothing

come and join the group of devoted atheists

propaganda;) :p

Naide
03-06-2007, 10:20 PM
I don't believe in Jesus, but I'm just sayin' the truth about Muhammad. He was a murderer and and a pedophile. If the model is flawed, it's not surprising a lot of followers are flawed in their morality.

i think you have to warn all Quran editors, tell them to change the story now or people wont know the truth:rolleyes:

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:20 PM
I would say the most barbaric terrorist attacks were carried out by coalition forces, personally.
The point in killing innocent civilians was to win the war.
And Bush has one goal for Iraq, which is $$$......having a US-friendly puppet state in that area of the world is handy too.

Hum, the point I was trying to make is that Bush (even if the motivation was $$$) wants democracy and peace in Iraq. Al-Qaida don't want peace, they want chaos and are perfectly fine with killing non-believers. You can't possibly compare the 2.

Chris 84
03-06-2007, 10:21 PM
Although I consider the war in Iraw one the biggest mistakes the US ever made, most civilians in Iraq were killed by terrorist attacks done by other muslims.

Indeed many were....though I guess noone can be sure on actual figures.
But I find it abhorrent that a nation with the power and resources such as the USA still feels the need to wipe out tens of thousands (at the very least) of innocent civilians.

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 10:22 PM
Many of these youngsters are just as "British" as I am.
Their home land is the UK, and they are entitled to their opinion the same as everyone else. Isn't that what is supposed to make places like the Uk so much better from Sharia states?Nazis were elected in Germany in the name of democracy.

Some opinions are dangerous to allow, even in democratic countries.

The problem in Islam is that its people often aren't content with living their own lives, the propagation is an essential part of it.
Would you still say they are entitled to their own opinions if tomorrow they made a claim to rule Britain (some of their psyched up people already do that)?

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:22 PM
i think you have to warn all Quran editors, tell them to change the story now or people wont know the truth:rolleyes:

I'm sorry, but both pedophilia and murders of Muhammad are well documented, I suggest you read about it. Admitelly, he lived in the a different context than Jesus, but he's simply not a good model to follow.

Naide
03-06-2007, 10:22 PM
Hum, the point I was trying to make is that Bush (even if the motivation was $$$) wants democracy and peace in Iraq. Al-Qaida don't want peace, they want chaos and are perfectly fine with killing non-believers. You can't possibly compare the 2.

bush = peace wow u made my day
Silly al qaeda also kill believers, they dont make difference

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:23 PM
Many of these youngsters are just as "British" as I am.
Their home land is the UK, and they are entitled to their opinion the same as everyone else. Isn't that what is supposed to make places like the Uk so much better from Sharia states?

Just like we're entitled to have an opinion on their opinion. ;)

Chris 84
03-06-2007, 10:24 PM
Hum, the point I was trying to make is that Bush (even if the motivation was $$$) wants democracy and peace in Iraq. Al-Qaida don't want peace, they want chaos and are perfectly fine with killing non-believers. You can't possibly compare the 2.

Al-Quaeda kill Muslims too, not just non-believers or whatever.
Bush wants peace in Iraq? :haha: Hilarious. Although Saddam might have been a total scumbag, it was Bush who brought about war in Iraq, and an end to peace there.

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:24 PM
bush = peace wow u made my day
Silly al qaeda also kill believers, they dont make difference

Hum, yes, Bush wants a peaceful development in Iraq. I know A-Qaeda don't care about killing believers as well, they're Evil.

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 10:24 PM
the vast majority of Muslims in Western countries DO accept "our" laws.For now.

scarecrows
03-06-2007, 10:25 PM
propaganda;) :p

atheists dont make enough propaganda whereas religions have infested TVs and press

Naide
03-06-2007, 10:26 PM
Hum, yes, Bush wants a peaceful development in Iraq. I know A-Qaeda don't care about killing believers as well, they're Evil.

4 years of war are very peaceful indeed

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:26 PM
Sorry I say this but you're far from being an intelligent person if you think the terrorist attacks were/are/will be done just for fun.
You have something against the Islam in general. Not every islamic is a terrorist or support the terrorism.Generalizations can be dangerous.
Do you believe everything Bush says? Of course he is looking stability in Irak but that's because it is a chaos that he barely can control. Why is he increasing the amount of troops? Why is he losing support from other countries?
By the way, I'm against both the terrorist attacks and the war in Iraq.

The goal of a terrorist isn't to bring stability, or to improve a situation. Their agenda is nothing more than fear.

I never said all islamic are terrorists or support terrorism.

Chris 84
03-06-2007, 10:27 PM
Nazis were elected in Germany in the name of democracy.

Some opinions are dangerous to allow, even in democratic countries.

The problem in Islam is that its people often aren't content with living their own lives, the propagation is an essential part of it.
Would you still say they are entitled to their own opinions if tomorrow they made a claim to rule Britain (some of their psyched up people already do that)?

True.
Personally I think Ariel Sharon should have been in jail rather than being democratically elected as leader of Israel after his part in the massacres at Sabra and Chatila, but that's just me :shrug:

Erm, huh? We can't stop people having opinions, however bad they may be...

Julio1974
03-06-2007, 10:28 PM
For now.

yeah, ask Theo Van Gogh and and Rushdie about how much they accept it.

Unfortunately, it will be difficult to get an answer from the former...

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 10:29 PM
4 years of war are very peaceful indeedIf there was anything good about the war in Iraq, it is that it showed us the nature of Islam in that part of the world.

Is it the Americans that are now killing each other like madmen? :rolleyes:

Indeed, Islam is the religion of peace...

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:30 PM
4 years of war are very peaceful indeed

I never said war is a "peaceful" action, I'm talking about what Bush wishes versus what terrorists wish. Even if he's motivated by money, power, oil, whatever, he doesn't celebrate on the streets when Iraqians die.

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:32 PM
yeah, ask Theo Van Gogh and and Rushdie about how much they accept it.

Unfortunately, it will be difficult to get an answer from the former...

When people criticize Christianity, they can still walk around freely, unlike people who criticize Islam, who need to hide themselves, like Rushdie.

Everybody should buy a copy of the "Satanic Verses" to suppport him. :worship:

Naide
03-06-2007, 10:34 PM
Is it the Americans that are now killing each other like madmen? :rolleyes:



it has nothing to see with religion, when you leave people in such a chaos whether you are in the middle east or africa or asia ,it will lead to killing and massacres because total chaos and no future make men crazy

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:37 PM
I find it funny when there is a religious conflict and people say it has nothing to do with religion, LOL.

Put Japan on chaos and after people won't start killing each others like they do in Iraq.

TMJordan
03-06-2007, 10:39 PM
Read the Koran, it says everyone who is a non muslim should be killed, no other religions say that.

That speaks volums imo.

Naide
03-06-2007, 10:40 PM
I find it funny when there is a religious conflict and people say it has nothing to do with religion, LOL.

Put Japan on chaos and after people won't start killing each others like they do in Iraq.

the religious conflict there is between muslims themselves
and easy to take one of the richest countries;)

sploush
03-06-2007, 10:42 PM
Read the Koran, it says everyone who is a non muslim should be killed, no other religions say that.

That speaks volums imo.

I am not muslim and I have not read the Qoran but I dont think this is true, it probably says all non muslims will not go to heaven or smthing along these lines.

TMJordan
03-06-2007, 10:43 PM
I am not muslim and I have not read the Qoran but I dont think this is true, it probably says all non muslims will not go to heaven or smthing along these lines.

In their "heaven" their is milk and honey and 40 virgins

Julio1974
03-06-2007, 10:44 PM
As usual, we are not now discussing the original topic. What should Europe do with a significant number of people who do not believe in some core European values? Can Eruope integrate them? how can Europe do it? That's the main question here. I really think this is one of the biggest challenge Europe has to face.

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 10:45 PM
In their "heaven" their is milk and honey and 40 virginsI think it's more like 72, as if one is not enough :o

TMJordan
03-06-2007, 10:45 PM
As usual, we are not now discussing the original topic. What should Europe do with a significant number of people who do not believe in some core European values? Can Eruope integrate them? how can Europe do it? That's the main question here. I really think this is one of the biggest challenge Europe has to face.

Kill them all?

Ok I'm just kiding, I dont think I should get involved in this topic or I may get banned.

sploush
03-06-2007, 10:45 PM
In their "heaven" their is milk and honey and 40 virgins

Ok, people can chose to believe whatever they want. I personally wouldnt mind having sexy women in my heaven ;) .

Naide
03-06-2007, 10:46 PM
As usual, we are not now discussing the original topic. What should Europe do with a significant number of people who do not believe in some core European values? Can Eruope integrate them? how can Europe do it? That's the main question here. I really think this is one of the biggest challenge Europe has to face.

Accept the laws of the country, if you want to practise your religion do it in your home that's all

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:48 PM
As usual, we are not now discussing the original topic. What should Europe do with a significant number of people who do not believe in some core European values? Can Eruope integrate them? how can Europe do it? That's the main question here. I really think this is one of the biggest challenge Europe has to face.

Europe need to show more tolerance for muslims as individuals, but no tolerance for excessive religious demands. Muslims also need to respect Europeen values.

Rogiman
03-06-2007, 10:48 PM
Accept the laws of the country, if you want to practise your religion do it in your home that's allI think that is what we all hope for, unfortunately that does not seem to be the case with many.

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:50 PM
Accept the laws of the country, if you want to practise your religion do it in your home that's all

:worship:

No hidjab in public school and other public places. :angel: I think Tunisia banned it so why can't we?

Naide
03-06-2007, 10:51 PM
I think that is what we all hope for, unfortunately that does not seem to be the case with many.

yes, ive always thought religion is a private matter, and shouldnt be exposed to everyone

Julio1974
03-06-2007, 10:52 PM
Accept the laws of the country, if you want to practise your religion do it in your home that's all

I agree with that. But acceptance is just a question of power: I accept them now because I cannot change them. I wouldn't be happy with mere acceptance.

I don't know if Europe will be able to prevent outbreak of violence form muslims communities in the future.

Just look at what happened with Theo Van Gogh (killed for making a movie about women submission in islam) or the problem with the Danish cartoons.

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:54 PM
I agree with that. But acceptance is just a question of power: I accept them now because I cannot change them. I wouldn't be happy with mere acceptance.

I don't know if Europe will be able to prevent outbreak of violence form muslims communities in the future.

Just look at what happened with Theo Van Gogh (killed for making a movie about women submission in islam) or the problem with the Danish cartoons.

There's nothing more we can do though.

kapranos
03-06-2007, 10:56 PM
Well at least France had enough common sense to take concrete actions. But beyond that, I'm not sure.

Naide
03-06-2007, 11:00 PM
Yes France did it

Good night

Peace

TMJordan
03-06-2007, 11:01 PM
Yes France did it

Good night

Peace

I would love too see peace on earth :) :wavey:

:unsure: I dont think it will happen though.

dorkino
03-06-2007, 11:17 PM
The deep knowledge of islam spreading here amazes me.Supposing none of the posters here are muslims , so how many professors here are studying its book and history ??

zicofirol
03-06-2007, 11:26 PM
The problem of Europe is multiculturalism. Now, it's fashionable to defend the right of Muslims to live in Europe according to the same values they lived in their countries, no matter what those values are.


Julio hit the nail on the head, multiculturalism which stand for moral ambiguity argues that we cant judge any culture and that all cultures are "equal" and should be viewed the same, doesn't matter if one culture stones a woman to death, or subjugates women etc.
So while in Europe they cant even stand up and say, our ideals are infact superior to youre medieval ideals, they will continue to see the rise of muslim fundamentalist in their countries..

and here is my response from the other kapranos thread, lol:

I think this quote it very well

"I left the world of faith, of genital cutting and forced marriage for the world of reason and sexual emancipation. After making this voyage I know that one of these two worlds is simply better than the other. Not for its gaudy gadgetry, but for its fundamental values."...

...She also describes how horrified she felt as an adult after Sept. 11, 2001, reaching for the Koran to find out whether some of Osama bin Laden's more blood-curdling statements -- "when you meet the unbelievers, strike them in the neck" -- were direct quotations. "I hated to do it," she wrote, "because I knew that I would find bin Laden's quotations in there." And there were consequences: "The little shutter at the back of my mind, where I pushed all my dissonant thoughts, snapped open after the 9/11 attacks, and it refused to close again. I found myself thinking that the Quran is not a holy document. It is a historical record, written by humans. . . . And it is a very tribal and Arab version of events. It spreads a culture that is brutal, bigoted, fixated on controlling women, and harsh in war."
That moment led Hirsi Ali to her most profound conclusion: that the mistreatment of women is not an incidental problem in the Muslim world, a side issue that can be dealt with once the more important political problems are out of the way. Rather, she believes that the enslavement of women lies at the heart of all of the most fanatical interpretations of Islam, creating "a culture that generates more backwardness with every generation."

Ultimately, it led to her most controversial conclusion too: that Islam is in a period of transition, that the religion as it is currently practiced is often incompatible with modernity and democracy and must radically transform itself in order to become so. "We in the West," she writes, "would be wrong to prolong the pain of that transition unnecessarily, by elevating cultures full of bigotry and hatred toward women to the stature of respectable alternative ways of life."
here is where I got that from: http://www.slate.com/id/2161171/fr/rss/

off course we cant judge a religion, unless its christianity, but other than that, cant judge... So no one can condem islam for what it really is, a backward religion invented basically to subjugate woman by some murderous nutjob in 600 AD, and has now taken the place as the most dangerous threat to western civilization, I really get tired of all these pussies on tv saying "religion of peace" yeah whatever, take the blinders off and see that such a religion that so virulently rejects reason really is a P.O.S.

dorkino
03-06-2007, 11:40 PM
The deep knowledge of islam spreading here amazes me.Supposing none of the posters here are muslims , so how many professors here are studying its book and history ??

And the answer is that the number of islam specialist professors here is even more amazing.

Julio1974
03-06-2007, 11:48 PM
And the answer is that the number of islam specialist professors here is even more amazing.

Could you state your opinion pls? I don't need to be a professor on Islam to discuss the contradiction between some core European values and the Charia. In fact, this contradiction was pointed out by the European Court of Human Rights.

Second, I don't need to be a professor on Islam to notice that at least some individual muslims do not share some basic notions of freedom of speech and women rights or due process of law. As an example, it's enough the murder of Theo Van Gogh, the intent to ban Rushdie's books or the outbreak of violence after the publication of the Danish cartoons.

kapranos
03-06-2007, 11:58 PM
And the answer is that the number of islam specialist professors here is even more amazing.

So you're one of them I guess. :rolleyes:

Julio1974
03-07-2007, 12:05 AM
This article is interesting and relates to the topic...
from the Boston Globe

For Muslim women, a deadly defiance
'Honor killings' on rise in Europe
By Colin Nickerson, Globe Staff | January 16, 2006

BERLIN -- Life was just starting to look up for 23-year-old Hatun Surucu when the bullets cut her down.


It had been a rough road: Eight years earlier, her parents, Turkish immigrants, had yanked Surucu from eighth grade, bundled her off to Istanbul, and forced her to marry an older cousin. Miserable in Turkey, she had fled her husband and returned to Berlin with her infant son, determined to make her own way as a modern woman in a secular society, according to friends.

For a Muslim barely out of girlhood, it was an act of extraordinary defiance against her family. And it cost Surucu her life.

As Europe's Muslims become increasingly conservative, growing numbers of women are being killed or mutilated in the name of ''family honor," according to law enforcement agencies, women's activist groups, and moderate Islamic organizations. These cases usually involve an attack on a Muslim woman by a close relative -- typically a brother or father -- angered by her refusal to accept a forced marriage or her insistence on leading a Western-style life.

There were at least eight such slayings in Berlin alone in 2005, and 47 honor killings of Muslim women across Germany in the past six years, according to police, media reports, and activist groups. Not coincidentally, activists say, tens of thousands of European-born Muslim women are annually forced into unwanted marriages, often to much older men, in their family's home countries. Refusal to submit to such marriages can bring a death sentence.

Following a spate of headline-grabbing cases, including Surucu's murder, European countries are slowly coming to recognize honor killings as a distinct crime.

In Great Britain, for example, a police review of 22 domestic homicides last year resulted in 18 being reclassified as ''murder in the name of so-called 'honor.' " Scotland Yard has reopened probes into 109 suspicious deaths, covering a 10-year span, that seem to have been family conspiracies to kill Muslim women.

The violent trend, say authorities, reflects the strengthening grip of religious fundamentalism among the continent's 16 million Muslims, many of whom suffer from rising unemployment, inadequate education, and -- perhaps above all -- the sense of being unwelcome outsiders in their adopted homes. As Muslim men embrace radical Islam and return to age-old customs, women are paying a cruel price.

''There is a lost generation of Muslims in Europe," said Eren Uensal, spokeswoman for the Turkish Federation of Berlin. ''Ten years ago, Muslims here were more modern, more secular than those 'back home.' Now the situation has reversed. The younger men feel there is no place for them in Europe, but they also feel there is no place else for them."

Islamic radical groups are filling the vacuum. ''The most alarming thing they teach is that violence is an acceptable way to enforce religious views or social customs," Uensal said. ''Much of that violence is against women."

Her parents and brothers in Berlin were outraged when Surucu abandoned her husband and returned to Germany with her infant son, Can. Even deeper than the anger was the family's sense of disgrace at this display of female independence, according to court testimony and family friends.

But Surucu wanted to make her own way. She stayed at a Berlin women's shelter only long enough to complete middle school. Then she found a part-time job, moved into a tiny apartment, and enrolled in a vocational program.

Further enraging her family, she abandoned the hijab -- the traditional head scarf worn by some Muslim women -- in favor of earrings, makeup, and blue jeans. Her son, now 6, was the light of her life, friends say. But Surucu also loved movies and going out dancing.

''All she wanted, really, was to be an ordinary person, just a normal young woman," said Georg Neumann, a friend of Surucu's at the vocational school.

On the night of Feb. 7, 2005, at a bus stop two blocks from her apartment, Surucu was waiting under a street lamp when bullets tore into her chest and face at point-blank range.

The slaying, according to police, was a family affair.

Three of Surucu's five brothers have been charged with murder. One has already confessed in a chilling court statement. ''She wanted her own circle of friends" outside the family, Ayhan Surucu, 18, said of his sister. ''It was too much."

Ayhan, the youngest brother, is charged with pulling the trigger. An older brother is charged with acquiring the gun, and a middle brother is accused of luring his sister to the murder scene with a phone call in which he said the family wanted to discuss reconciliation.

''She was still so much wanting to be one with her family," Neumann said. ''She didn't want to be cut off from them. She only wanted them to accept that she could have her own life."

Britain opened a review of the suspicious cases after a Kurdish immigrant from Iraq, Abdullah Yones, held his 16-year-old daughter over a bathtub and slashed her throat in 2004 after discovering that she was trading love letters with a boy in her high school class in London. In court last year, Yones insisted that his daughter brought her fate on herself. On the day he was sentenced to life imprisonment, dozens of approving Kurdish men came to court to show solidarity with Yones, according to media accounts.

In a more recent German case, Goenuel Karabey, 20, the daughter of Turkish immigrants living in Berlin, refused a forced marriage last June and disappeared with her boyfriend, a Christian.


Along with last year's subway bombings in London by home-grown Islamic zealots and riots in the Arab suburbs of France, the honor killings in Europe have horrified a continent that, until recent years, has paid little heed -- many politicians now concede -- to the religious fundamentalism breeding in its midst.

Moderate Islamic groups and some European leaders are warning that honor killings reflect a trend of fundamentalism that sneers at Western laws and values.

''There are two societies with two different value systems living side by side -- but wholly apart -- in Europe," said Seyran Ates, a Berlin lawyer of Turkish origin who often works with women trying to escape forced marriages.

The first two generations of immigrants, Ates said, found plentiful jobs and were generally content. But the generation of European-born Muslims now coming of age, Ates said, ''never integrated into Western society [and] are becoming more and more conservative, not less so."

A Berlin group, Wildwasser, provides hiding places for girls ages 12 to 18 who feel their lives are in danger, mainly because of their refusal to enter forced marriages or to quit school in favor of duties at home.

''So many cases we see involve young [Muslim] girls who are exposed to ideas of equality and freedom, and take to these ideas like flowers to the sun," said Mehriban Ozer, a social worker for Wildwasser. ''They want to go to school. They want a life. The violence comes from fathers and brothers . . . who now see the tiniest step toward freedom by a female to be a terrible break from tradition."

Although Muslims represent less than 5 percent of the German population, about half of the girls who come to Wildwasser fleeing violence at home are Turks, Arabs, North Africans, or West Asians from strict Islamic families, according to Trina Leichsenring, the group's director.

The rise of fundamentalism among Muslims in Europe can be blamed, at least partially, on the failure of countries to integrate the millions of Muslims who started arriving in large numbers in the 1960s. Two generations later, most lead lives largely segregated from the mainstream. ''It's been taboo to discuss integration. It offends those who say every expression of cultural difference is somehow wonderful," said Heinz Buschkowsky, mayor of the Berlin borough of Neukoelln, where more than a third of the residents are Arabs and Turks. ''But now, with culture being expressed by covering women's faces or killing a girl who refuses to marry some old man in the home village, perhaps it is time to break the taboo."

In Neukoelln's largely immigrant Thomas Morus school, not far from the place where Hatun Surucu was murdered, students greeted news of her slaying with loud approval. Her brothers were hailed as local heroes.

The principal, Volker Steffans, was so disgusted by the display that he sent a letter to parents, to be read and signed, explaining what he had always regarded as obvious -- that girls should not be harassed for refusing to wear head scarves; that girls should not be attacked for wanting to pursue careers; that women should not be murdered for expecting tolerance and equality in a Western society.

''A murder happened nearby; a young woman was killed. She died because she wanted to live freely," Steffans said. ''But we are shocked by the fact that students approve of this murder and say [Surucu] deserved to die because she 'lived like a German.' "

Petra Krischok, a news assistant in the Globe's Berlin bureau, contributed to this report.

© Copyright 2006 Globe Newspaper Company.

Peoples
03-07-2007, 12:16 AM
I agree with that. But acceptance is just a question of power: I accept them now because I cannot change them. I wouldn't be happy with mere acceptance.

I don't know if Europe will be able to prevent outbreak of violence form muslims communities in the future.

Just look at what happened with Theo Van Gogh (killed for making a movie about women submission in islam) or the problem with the Danish cartoons.
Accept them? :retard:
Send them all back to Africa!

R.Federer
03-07-2007, 12:23 AM
The way many religions developed, including Islam, was with a context in the culture of the region where it developed.

Now there are many people with strong views on religions who have immigrated to Switzerland (where they have been welcomed as refugees fleeing difficult times in their home countries), but many are unwilling to live within the law which exists.

For example, a strong lobby of Muslims are pushing to have a mosque which will broadcast their prayers on a P.A. system in Bern, at 6am, against other laws which prohibit that kind of loud disturbance.

It is difficult to sometimes merge their needs with a foreign culture which has its own traditions and wants to keep them, but feels pressure to accommodate the needs of new immigrants.

zicofirol
03-07-2007, 12:47 AM
For example, a strong lobby of Muslims are pushing to have a mosque which will broadcast their prayers on a P.A. system in Bern, at 6am, against other laws which prohibit that kind of loud disturbance.

It is difficult to sometimes merge their needs with a foreign culture which has its own traditions and wants to keep them, but feels pressure to accommodate the needs of new immigrants.

hahaha, :retard: :retard: :retard: :retard: , I hope the swiss gov doesnt give in to those ridiculous demands.

Here is the problem with religion especially islam, wherever they go they want to force others to live under their rules, or at the least they want their rules to apply to their people even if it contradicts local law. That is why you have muslim communities in England, that operate unofficially under sharia law, the same things are happening all over Europe.

In the US you still have muslims practicing arranged(forced) marriages, now if thats not stupid I dont know what is...

World Beater
03-07-2007, 01:40 AM
The way many religions developed, including Islam, was with a context in the culture of the region where it developed.

Now there are many people with strong views on religions who have immigrated to Switzerland (where they have been welcomed as refugees fleeing difficult times in their home countries), but many are unwilling to live within the law which exists.

For example, a strong lobby of Muslims are pushing to have a mosque which will broadcast their prayers on a P.A. system in Bern, at 6am, against other laws which prohibit that kind of loud disturbance.

It is difficult to sometimes merge their needs with a foreign culture which has its own traditions and wants to keep them, but feels pressure to accommodate the needs of new immigrants.

yes...in countries like malaysia, they have congregated churches, hindu temples etc because they dont want these religions to invade muslim space or their way of life. so for every 20 hindu temples, they have demolished 19 of them and given land in rural areas. There is blatant discrimination that gives rights to muslims but not non-muslims.

also, in IRAN they wanted to execute a woman because she retaliated when two men ***** her. Pathetic.

practicing religion is fine. But it gets out of hand when it starts to invade the channels of other peoples lives.

i wonder. Hinduism has stories which are every bit as gory as some of the muslim stories, but we dont hear of hindu terrorists going into pakistan and detonating themselves. Its not just the religion but perhaps the culture too.

World Beater
03-07-2007, 01:42 AM
In the US you still have muslims practicing arranged(forced) marriages, now if thats not stupid I dont know what is...

not all arranged marriages are forced. I dont know about islam but in religions like hinduism, there are arranged marriages. In the past, consent was not needed but in todays society there must be consent.

RonE
03-07-2007, 09:15 AM
Excellent article Julio1974 and I think it really shows what the problem is and how severe it is. Apart from global warming I truly think that this issue of integration will be THE key core problem Europe will have to face over the next two generations.

As to what can be done to solve the problem- well there a few things but unfortunately all of these options have very heavy consequences that will change life in Europe forever or are unfeasable to begin with:
1.) Try to integrate these young Muslims through education- the problem is how do you get to them all? Many of these families are growing at an exponential rate with 8 or 9 children per family. How is it possible to get enough funding to undertake such an astronomical project? And may of these youths are so brainwashed- how do you change someone who is so dead set in their views and way of life?
2.) Do nothing- continue to ignore the problem and sweep it under the rug. But ignoring the problem won't help solve it and as I mentioned with the high population growth among Muslims in 50 years time they could very well be the majority group in many European countries and by then it is too late- Europe will lose it's identity as a westernized, modernized freedom loving continent.
3.) Take offensive measures- use force, have mass deportations etc- again not a good option as Europe will lose it's semblance of tolerance and equality and taking into account it's history during the Holocaust just can't afford to go down that avenue.

The main problem as has been pointed out is that Europe's hands are tied- on the one hand they cannot and should not tolerate a breach of basic human rights and lawlessness, on the other hand taking active measures to stop this would require it to go against many of it's own fundemental values.

In short, I am not the slightest bit envious of the decision makers in Europe who will have to find a way to solve this problem :o

RonE
03-07-2007, 10:44 AM
Just one thing to add: If this problem is to be solved I think it's absolutely crucial that Muslims who have adopted the western way of life and are integrated into their respective country do speak up on this issue and take measures to halt this radicalization process.

almouchie
03-07-2007, 11:15 AM
The deep knowledge of islam spreading here amazes me.Supposing none of the posters here are muslims , so how many professors here are studying its book and history ??


And the answer is that the number of islam specialist professors here is even more amazing.

SALAM (peace)
A sound of reason for a change

I will not attempt to defend, or explain any of the many ideas, notions, beliefs you have.
Don’t believe everything you hear, or see, or read,
If you really are interested in knowing about something, be it religion, or science or any other field, go about it the right way, don’t be passive & expect everything to come to you without any effort.

You want to learn about Islam, read the Quran, or translations, read the Sunnah (Prophey Mohamad's life), read the companions' quotations.
There is a huge Difference between Islam, & what some Muslims do, say or commit. It goes for Christianity & Judaism.

Please don’t judge from mere events you hear on the news, & I would like to point something out for the majority who simply take in the filtered bad news.
Every religion, country, race, ethnicity, etc have the good & the bad. It is how the world is. The fact that only or mostly only the bad news gets press & media attention is where the media propaganda has reached.

Under no circumstance, is killing permissible, no terrorism, or suicide bombing, no honor killing, etc.
Women are not to be forced in marriage; anything else is an error by the individual for which he/she will be judged.
Islam orders immigrants 'Muhajeern' to obey the laws of that country & tells them to integrate in society. For those who don't they are simply not following the Sunnah (Prophet's teaching).
Sharia is the law of Islam & society, everything is mentioned. I am not nearly educated enough or knowledgable enough YET, to speak of it, let alone random people.

As for the many other things, it the not much different in Christianity or Judaism, as far as fornification or adultery, the fact that it is common nowadays doesn’t make it lawful. I wouldn't go into that though, it’s a question of faith.

Women has been given rights in Islam that were unheard of before, they aren’t to be forced to marriage, & should inherit from their family, & Prophet placed women in VERY VERY esteem.

As for the cartoon in the Danish newspaper, well it is not allowed to draw the prophets ALL of them from Moses, to Jesus, to Mohammad.

Let alone make caricature pictures & degrading depiction. You call that freedom of speech; it's simply disrespect & ignorance.
So many other activities are taking place that infuriate & provoke Muslims, which makes some of the lesser minds & fundamentalists retaliate.

Don't be fooled by those criminals who claim they are doing anything in the name of a religion or quote sayings from the Quran. These people will judged for using the Holy Book of Allah for their own interest.

I admit there are many problems with youth today, especially Muslim youth, who may be easily swayed by the more fundamentalists who I refuse to call Muslims, because it gives Islam a bad name.
You don’t hear on the news that a murder in X AVENUE was done by an African American Christain.
The media should stop advertising them as Muslims because that is exactly what they want. For the world to think they commit their atrocities for the sake of Islam, God forbid.
One last thing, I know I will get a handful of responses, I only hope you afford me the same amount of respect & decorum that I have given to you. It is your right to agree or disagree, or voice you opinions, just play nice. J

Castafiore
03-07-2007, 11:24 AM
When I travelled to Casablanca a couple of years ago for work, I was quite amazed to see the difference between street life there and in Brussels. The dress sense is different for example since you see a more strict Muslim dressing code in Brussels (and increasingly so).

I talked to a Muslim about it and he acknowledged it. He says that one of the problems European Muslims have is the following.
A couple of generations ago, there was a huge flow (demand for labor) of immigrants into a number of European countries. However, many of these Muslims tend to live in the same neighborhood where they have their own shops, doctors, Mosques,... (in part to keep their own language, culture, religion alive and in part because they didn't feel welcome enough in their host country). As a result of that, they stick together in trying to keep the values of their religion, culture. The problem with that, this guy told me, is that they don't look outside of their own reference groups often enough. That's the main reason why you see a big difference when you walk in cities like Brussels or Paris and compare that to Casablanca for example. The Muslims are stuck in a reference group who base their values on those from a couple of decennia ago when their parents or grandparents moved to Europe while Moroccan Muslims didn't need such a controlled reference group so they're more progressive now.

Another problem according to this man is the language. To understand the Quran properly, you need a good understanding of Arabic. The new generations of European muslims, so he said (because I don't know enough about this myself), don't have enough understanding of the language the Quran was written in. However, these youngsters want to stay in touch with their religion so they get taught by these conservative people from those reference group (mentioned earlier) or as has been reportered, by extremists who give some of these youngsters the idea that they are learning about their religion and the Quran in all its aspects but they only get a limited view on it and since they don't understand Arabic well enough, they can't tell that difference.


Now, I'm not saying that the situation in Casablanca is so perfect either. I had to speak in front of a rather large group. When it was my turn to speak, a large group of men stood up and left the room, to return after I was done talking. I was the only female speaker there. A friendly Muslim told me that the more conservative Muslims still can't stand to have to listen to a woman.

My friends and family are a mixture when talking about religion: protestants, muslims, atheists, agnosts, Roman catholics, jehova's witness,... Personally, I think it's useful to get in touch with such a mixture of cultures, religions, beliefs,...
I have a Muslim friend in Malaysia and she's a very modern young woman who has her own career, is independent, open to other religions,... Nowadays, we hear too much about the ultra-conservative Muslims and we need to hear more voices of Islam.

oz_boz
03-07-2007, 12:45 PM
I like this thread by kapranos much better

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=86696

oz_boz
03-07-2007, 01:15 PM
I never said all islamic are terrorists or support terrorism.

Maybe not terrorists, but equal to Nazis, which is pretty bad apart from obviously wrong.

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=70838

Julio1974
03-07-2007, 01:45 PM
[COLOR="Blue"]
[B]SALAM (peace)
As for the cartoon in the Danish newspaper, well it is not allowed to draw the prophets ALL of them from Moses, to Jesus, to Mohammad.

Let alone make caricature pictures & degrading depiction. You call that freedom of speech; it's simply disrespect & ignorance.
So many other activities are taking place that infuriate & provoke Muslims, which makes some of the lesser minds & fundamentalists retaliate.



IN Western societies, free speech entails the right to attack, question and challenge religious as well as moral and political beliefs, no matter how offensive you may find those attacks. Ever read Voltaire's writing about the Catholic Church? Ever watched "The Last Temptation of Christ by Scorsese?

In Argentina, an artist (Leon Ferrari) made an exhibition that deeply offended the catholic community here (it was much more offensive than the cartoons). However, the Court refused to ban it, on free speech grounds. In Chile, catholic groups tried to ban The Last Temptation of Christ, but the American Court oh Human Rights said Chile violated free speech rights.

As you can see, western societies finally have prevailed over the Catholic Church and its censorship. We cannot go back now to dark times because a different religious group feels offended. Free speech is a core value in western societies. If you donít like it, just donít live there.

RonE
03-07-2007, 03:42 PM
A couple of generations ago, there was a huge flow (demand for labor) of immigrants into a number of European countries. However, many of these Muslims tend to live in the same neighborhood where they have their own shops, doctors, Mosques,... (in part to keep their own language, culture, religion alive and in part because they didn't feel welcome enough in their host country). As a result of that, they stick together in trying to keep the values of their religion, culture. The problem with that, this guy told me, is that they don't look outside of their own reference groups often enough. That's the main reason why you see a big difference when you walk in cities like Brussels or Paris and compare that to Casablanca for example. The Muslims are stuck in a reference group who base their values on those from a couple of decennia ago when their parents or grandparents moved to Europe while Moroccan Muslims didn't need such a controlled reference group so they're more progressive now.


That is very interesting.

As someone who lives in Europe how much awareness is there among the public to this issue? Do you personally feel the impact or does it have a certain feeling of "this is happening elsewhere everything is normal"?

safinaferrero
03-07-2007, 04:23 PM
what a crappy thread and poor comments, ppl should think a bit more before writting such things. It's really easy to use a poll and generalize it to more than a billion of people. It's not because u don't believe in sth that u have to be so unrespectfull, i'm not christian, not jewish, don't belive in buddah i'm muslim and as a muslim and a human being i also had respect for people and in what they believe in i've read about all those religions, i didn't change for those religions didn't say mine is better than the others but at least i can say that i know what they think .

I think all those political and religion topics shouldn't be discuss in a tennis board because first it has nothing to do there secondly it leads to racism, intolerance among others things. Here we are coming from different countries, have diff religions, nationalities, colors but i think that we have at least one thing in common tennis maybe we should stick to this subject or light subjects a bit more fun than all those politicalreligious stuff there are many messageboards for it and u'll get more replies than here i guess.

I won't post more in this thread because it will be useless as some people here are so convinced in their thoughts but i needed to say so i can't intolerance more than stupidity.
:angel:&Peace& :angel:

mtw
03-07-2007, 04:40 PM
Majority of Polish people are Catholics. Our religion is against killing people. Majority of my nation is opposite against war of Iraq and Afghanistan too and most of all the presence of Poland in these unneceser dispensable wars. Our presence is really redundant there.
I dont know the rules of Islam. But I think, that this anti-west attitude of Bristish Muslims is caused by active presence of UK in these wars and fear of loss of identity etc.
There are Muslims in Poland too. They dont demonstrate manifestation of fundamentalism. Besides people can have confess such religion, as they want. This people dont want to accept rules of Christianity. We can live parallel without conflicts. Islam is not the threat for the world. There are other worse threats. I think, that some countries should not provoke Muslims.

mtw
03-07-2007, 04:44 PM
IN Western societies, free speech entails the right to attack, question and challenge religious as well as moral and political beliefs, no matter how offensive you may find those attacks. Ever read Voltaire's writing about the Catholic Church? Ever watched "The Last Temptation of Christ by Scorsese?

In Argentina, an artist (Leon Ferrari) made an exhibition that deeply offended the catholic community here (it was much more offensive than the cartoons). However, the Court refused to ban it, on free speech grounds. In Chile, catholic groups tried to ban The Last Temptation of Christ, but the American Court oh Human Rights said Chile violated free speech rights.

As you can see, western societies finally have prevailed over the Catholic Church and its censorship. We cannot go back now to dark times because a different religious group feels offended. Free speech is a core value in western societies. If you donít like it, just donít live there.

Insult of religion should be banned too. The democracy should have own limits too.

mtw
03-07-2007, 04:50 PM
Hum, yes, Bush wants a peaceful development in Iraq. I know A-Qaeda don't care about killing believers as well, they're Evil.


Are you special emissary of our Mr President Lech? When I write your opinions, I see the picture of this man.
Potato.

mtw
03-07-2007, 05:10 PM
The problem of Europe is multiculturalism. Now, it's fashionable to defend the right of Muslims to live in Europe according to the same values they lived in their countries, no matter what those values are.

However, some of these values clearly contradict basic human rights, as interpreted by the European Court of Human Right. In fact, the contradiction between the Charia and the European Charter of Human Rights was expressly recognized by the European Court. The European Court especially emphasized these contradictions in the area of women rights and criminal law. That's why, the Court stated that it did not entail a violation of the European Charter of Human Rights the ban of a islamic political pary in Turkey which wanted to implement the Charia.

Dear representative of dear Argentinian nation. I dont know, if I understand your opinion well. Does it mean, that Christianity should be banned in Argentina or Chile too? I must remind it to other posters, that in Chile and Argentina in years 1976-1978 ( some sources give till 1982 ) about 70000 people in both these states were killed, tortured and murdered ( there were innocent people: doctors, workers, nones, journalists, students. Intelligence of the nation ). The pretext was fight against communism ( many sources give thet CIA trained and gave money for this purpose) and defence of Christianity. I read it in official sources and saw a few documental films on this subject. Special centers of tortures came into being in Argentina. People were captured, tortured ( sexual abuse, ****, removing of teeth and nails, castration and many other things ), then they disseapered ( probably in Atlantic ). The children were taken from parents and given to adoption to give them ,,Christian'' upbringing. And the symbol of their army was Maria ( the Mother of God ). I dont know, wheather these people, who did it, knew the rules of Christianity. I think no. Besides they should be punished in Court of Justice in Hague and excommunicated from Catholic Church.

Julio1974
03-07-2007, 05:34 PM
Dear representative of dear Argentinian nation. I dont know, if I understand your opinion well. Does it mean, that Christianity should be banned in Argentina or Chile too? I must remind it to other posters, that in Chile and Argentina in years 1976-1978 ( some sources give till 1982 ) about 70000 people in both these states were killed, tortured and murdered ( there were innocent people: doctors, workers, nones, journalists, students. Intelligence of the nation ). The pretext was fight against communism ( many sources give thet CIA trained and gave money for this purpose) and defence of Christianity. I read it in official sources and saw a few documental films on this subject. Special centers of tortures came into being in Argentina. People were captured, tortured ( sexual abuse, ****, removing of teeth and nails, castration and many other things ), then they disseapered ( probably in Atlantic ). The children were taken from parents and given to adoption to give them ,,Christian'' upbringing. And the symbol of their army was Maria ( the Mother of God ). I dont know, wheather these people, who did it, knew the rules of Christianity. I think no. Besides they should be punished in Court of Justice in Hague and excommunicated from Catholic Church.

You are right, You don't understand anything.

All I can reply to your incoherent post is :haha: :haha:

zicofirol
03-07-2007, 06:12 PM
As for the cartoon in the Danish newspaper, well it is not allowed to draw the prophets ALL of them from Moses, to Jesus, to Mohammad.

Let alone make caricature pictures & degrading depiction. You call that freedom of speech; it's simply disrespect & ignorance.
So many other activities are taking place that infuriate & provoke Muslims, which makes some of the lesser minds & fundamentalists retaliate.

That is what free speech, the right to offend anyone you want, Bush has been ridiculed and disrespected by many in the left, pretty badly too, yet you havent heard one conservative say those bookds, magazines etc. should be banned.

Jesus and the christian religion has also been ridiculed in the states (I mean you have people wearing "jesus was black" t-shits with a black jesus on them) yet this has never been stopped.

Any free sosciety to thrive depends on the freedom of ideas, that includes expression that might offend a few or might offend the a whole nation, yet who the fuck are you or a group of religion to ask government to silence someone because they are offending them.

Oh and go to the 1st page my post there quotes a muslim or ex-musli woman who quotes the koran itself (where it says kill infidels etc.), the problem with religion is any follower always has selective reading, since their are so many contradiction in their bibles (including the koran) then their are many interpretations of it...
Majority of Polish people are Catholics. Our religion is against killing people. Majority of my nation is opposite against war of Iraq and Afghanistan too and most of all the presence of Poland in these unneceser dispensable wars. Our presence is really redundant there.
I dont know the rules of Islam. But I think, that this anti-west attitude of Bristish Muslims is caused by active presence of UK in these wars and fear of loss of identity etc.
There are Muslims in Poland too. They dont demonstrate manifestation of fundamentalism. Besides people can have confess such religion, as they want. This people dont want to accept rules of Christianity. We can live parallel without conflicts. Islam is not the threat for the world. There are other worse threats. I think, that some countries should not provoke Muslims...

Insult of religion should be banned too. The democracy should have own limits too.
now this is funny, no religon has killed more than catholics, the vatican was the leading terrorist organization for about 1500+ years, killing, dismembering, taking lands etc. all in the name of christianity... look at the crusades, the inquisition's, the forced conversion of native americans in America(the continent) etc. that is laughable.

Any free society depens on freedom of ideas, if that ceases to exist then you cant have or wont have a free society for long...


ps. here is another story from the wonderful and free! muslim world: Saudi gang-**** victim faces 90 lashes (http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2007/March/middleeast_March71.xml&section=middleeast)

marti_228
03-07-2007, 06:15 PM
Dear representative of dear Argentinian nation. I dont know, if I understand your opinion well. Does it mean, that Christianity should be banned in Argentina or Chile too? I must remind it to other posters, that in Chile and Argentina in years 1976-1978 ( some sources give till 1982 ) about 70000 people in both these states were killed, tortured and murdered ( there were innocent people: doctors, workers, nones, journalists, students. Intelligence of the nation ). The pretext was fight against communism ( many sources give thet CIA trained and gave money for this purpose) and defence of Christianity. I read it in official sources and saw a few documental films on this subject. Special centers of tortures came into being in Argentina. People were captured, tortured ( sexual abuse, ****, removing of teeth and nails, castration and many other things ), then they disseapered ( probably in Atlantic ). The children were taken from parents and given to adoption to give them ,,Christian'' upbringing. And the symbol of their army was Maria ( the Mother of God ). I dont know, wheather these people, who did it, knew the rules of Christianity. I think no. Besides they should be punished in Court of Justice in Hague and excommunicated from Catholic Church.


I don't understand the reason why you post this, it's a bit incoherent.
Those were dictatorships the Argentinian took place from 1976 to 1983 and the Chilean from 1974 to 1990.

zicofirol
03-07-2007, 06:35 PM
I don't understand the reason why you post this, it's a bit incoherent.
.
incoherent is its trademark...lol

Winston's Human
03-07-2007, 06:35 PM
IN Western societies, free speech entails the right to attack, question and challenge religious as well as moral and political beliefs, no matter how offensive you may find those attacks. Ever read Voltaire's writing about the Catholic Church? Ever watched "The Last Temptation of Christ by Scorsese?

In Argentina, an artist (Leon Ferrari) made an exhibition that deeply offended the catholic community here (it was much more offensive than the cartoons). However, the Court refused to ban it, on free speech grounds. In Chile, catholic groups tried to ban The Last Temptation of Christ, but the American Court oh Human Rights said Chile violated free speech rights.

As you can see, western societies finally have prevailed over the Catholic Church and its censorship. We cannot go back now to dark times because a different religious group feels offended. Free speech is a core value in western societies. If you donít like it, just donít live there.

Well said!

Julio1974
03-07-2007, 06:45 PM
incoherent is its trademark...lol

I was suprised she hadn't posted yet in this thread.

There is one thing I admire from her: the ability to link any topic of any thread with Bush and the US.

Castafiore
03-07-2007, 08:17 PM
That is very interesting.

As someone who lives in Europe how much awareness is there among the public to this issue? Do you personally feel the impact or does it have a certain feeling of "this is happening elsewhere everything is normal"?
Hard to tell really since talking about Islam is such a sensitive topic of conversation and when talking about the integration issue, many people on both sides do play the blame game IMO.

I don't really feel that the awareness is that high. I sure wasn't that aware of it until I went to Casablanca and noticed a difference in dress code and started talking to a Muslim about this issue of those conservative reference group stuck in time.

There's a strict seperation between religion and state in my country + freedom of religion. So, Muslims are free to have their religion, practice it, go to their Mosques,...
However, one of the more recent issues is the growing concern of how Islam is being taught to the younger generation of Muslims. I know that at least in The Netherlands and in Belgium (could be in other countries as well but I don't know about it), there's a discussion going about how it is taught, who gets to teach and what are they teaching. In other words, they're free to learn about their religion but maybe we should get more garantees that the teachers and religious leaders give a full picture of their religion instead of a limited one. The religious leaders and the teachers have to live up to a certain standard.


I've read quite a few articles on why some of the more extreme muslims are coming to cities like Brussels to try and teach the limited and ultra-conservative Islam religion just because they know that some of these European muslims are quite easy to influence because they have an identity crisis (they don't feel fully accepted in the country they live in but the country their parents/grandparents came from doesn't feel like home either) and some of these extremists take advantage of the limited knowledge of Arabic (certainly the written language) and Islam itself to teach them their restricted viewpoint.
However, I don't know how widespread that is. I'm certainly not claiming that every Islam teacher is as conservative.
The solution, many feel here, is not to ban Islam of course and tell them to fully accept our way of life (whatever that is) or else go "home" but to make sure that they do get a proper education.

R.Federer
03-07-2007, 08:37 PM
I hope the swiss gov doesnt give in to those ridiculous demands.

Here is the problem with religion especially islam, wherever they go they want to force others to live under their rules, or at the least they want their rules to apply to their people even if it contradicts local law. That is why you have muslim communities in England, that operate unofficially under sharia law, the same things are happening all over Europe.

Well, Swiss gov are trying to mediate. No one wants to make the immigrants feel unwelcome. For the most part, these people have escaped difficult times and religion is more important to them than ever (not just Muslims, Switzerland also had Sikh leave India after the riots that has accompanied the assassination of Indeera Gandhi, and they also wish to have their temples, which they are granted).

So Switzerland would like to accommodate their needs, but preferably not at the expense of changing their own laws, own traditions, inconveniencing the native Swiss. It is a delicate issue, but speaking for myself only, I do not wish to have religious sermons of ANY religion broadcast at 6am.

A similar situation was in France, with the head scarf. One understands that these are their religious tenets, but respectfully hopes that they can adapt their religious needs to the culture of the country which has welcomed them.

kapranos
03-07-2007, 08:38 PM
Insult of religion should be banned too. The democracy should have own limits too.

Sorry but free speech includes religions. If we're going to ban insult of religion, then we would have to ban insults of sports, ideologies, politicians, hum... Pretty much everything.

R.Federer
03-07-2007, 08:52 PM
Sorry but free speech includes religions. If we're going to ban insult of religion, then we would have to ban insults of sports, ideologies, politicians, hum... Pretty much everything.

Actually that is not exactly correct.

In the U.S.A for example, free speech (protected by the first amendment) is not without restrictions. You cannot for instance, make statements about anything (let alone religion) that would break the peace. So an inflammatory statement about religion that would lead to a fight or some other violent activity, is not protected. You can be successfully prosecuted for that, and you have no recourse to the F.A.

Perhaps you have in mind free speech rights in a specific country which has different legalities than the best known one, which is the U.S's.

zicofirol
03-07-2007, 09:00 PM
Actually that is not exactly correct.

In the U.S.A for example, free speech (protected by the first amendment) is not without restrictions. You cannot for instance, make statements about anything (let alone religion) that would break the peace. So an inflammatory statement about religion that would lead to a fight or some other violent activity, is not protected. You can be successfully prosecuted for that, and you have no recourse to the F.A.

Speech that calls for murder or incites violence is not permitted, but this is a call for violence so its should not be permitted. But insulting a religion,government, political party, injured no one, and should not be banned.

But you can have a rally and say "x people are the scum of the earth, x people will burn in hell, x people should be kicked out of the country etc.

R.Federer
03-07-2007, 09:06 PM
Speech that calls for murder or incites violence is not permitted, but this is a call for violence so its should not be permitted.

That is a sentiment I agree with, but under the law it is nebulous.
Anything which would CAUSE a breach in peace or otherwise lead to violence is not permitted. The burden of proof would fall on a prosecutor to show that this would actually cause violence. But without violence realized, this would be difficult to show (innuendo is not enough).

If everyone looks at people making comments like them and laughs at them thinking they're just insane (which they might be), then it would be harder still.

Free speech is a very broad right, as well as it should be because governments should not have power to censor except where it is absolutely necessary. At the same time, the granting of such an absolute right brings with it some chance of abuse. Calling for violence IMO is one such abuse.

kapranos
03-07-2007, 09:15 PM
That is a sentiment I agree with, but under the law it is nebulous.
Anything which would CAUSE a breach in peace or otherwise lead to violence is not permitted. The burden of proof would fall on a prosecutor to show that this would actually cause violence. But without violence realized, this would be difficult to show (innuendo is not enough).

If everyone looks at people making comments like them and laughs at them thinking they're just insane (which they might be), then it would be harder still.

Free speech is a very broad right, as well as it should be because governments should not have power to censor except where it is absolutely necessary. At the same time, the granting of such an absolute right brings with it some chance of abuse. Calling for violence IMO is one such abuse.

I know there are limits to freedom of speech, but generally I don't see criticizing or insulting religion is any different than criticizing or insulting another topic.

I could say "tennis sucks" and a tennis fan could get violent and kill 20 people, but that's not my problem. The same about "X religion sucks".

R.Federer
03-07-2007, 09:19 PM
I know there are limits to freedom of speech, but generally I don't see criticizing or insulting religion is any different than criticizing or insulting another topic.

Absolutely correct, it is not. Free speech limitations have nothing to do with religion. They can be about anything that is shown to incite violence or shatter the peace.

However, I would imagine prosecuting for an inflammatory religious comment is likely to be easier than for a tennis comment. Because that is how humans beings are when it comes to religion.

Julio1974
03-07-2007, 09:20 PM
Actually that is not exactly correct.

In the U.S.A for example, free speech (protected by the first amendment) is not without restrictions. You cannot for instance, make statements about anything (let alone religion) that would break the peace. So an inflammatory statement about religion that would lead to a fight or some other violent activity, is not protected. You can be successfully prosecuted for that, and you have no recourse to the F.A.

Perhaps you have in mind free speech rights in a specific country which has different legalities than the best known one, which is the U.S's.

That's partially incorrect. In the US, only speech that could lead to inminent break of peace, which could not be prevented by the police,could be punished. Remember that this argument (break of peace) was put forward by southern states to prevent the civil right movement from demonstrating in southern towns, and it was systematically rejected by the Federal Supreme Court.

The controlling case is Terminiello v. Chicago:
"Accordingly a function of free speech under our system of government is to invite dispute. It may indeed best serve its high purpose when it induces a condition of unrest, creates dissatisfaction with conditions as they are, or even stirs people to anger. Speech is often provocative and challenging. It may strike at prejudices and preconceptions and have profound unsettling effects as it presses for acceptance of an idea. That is why freedom of speech, though not absolute, Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, supra, 315 U.S. at pages 571-572, 62 S.Ct. at page 769, is nevertheless protected against censorship or punishment, unless shown likely to roduce a clear and present danger of a serious substantive evil that rises far above public inconvenience, annoyance, or unrest. See Bridges v. California, 314 U.S. 252, 262 , 193, 159 A.L.R. 1346; Craig v. Harney, 331 U.S. 367, 373 , 1253. There is no room under our Constitution for a more restrictive view. For the alternative would lead to standardization of ideas [337 U.S. 1 , 5] either by legislatures, courts, or dominant political or community groups".

R.Federer
03-07-2007, 09:47 PM
That's partially incorrect. In the US, only speech that could lead to inminent break of peace, which could not be prevented by the police,could be punished. Remember that this argument (break of peace) was put forward by southern states to prevent the civil right movement from demonstrating in southern towns, and it was systematically rejected by the Federal Supreme Court.

Which part is incorrect? Just that imminence was not included in what I wrote? Well yes, you cannot really prosecute easily on the claim that violence today was a consequence of what a religious clerc said last year for instance. I don't think that part has much bearing on the essence of what I posted.

The additional parts you included are the details of the law. I merely pointed out that the idea that anything can be said anywhere about any issue is not correct, as Kaparansos seemed to indicate. There are limits to free speech, and their being a cause of violence or the break of peace puts a restriction.

Julio1974
03-07-2007, 10:06 PM
Which part is incorrect? Just that imminence was not included in what I wrote? Well yes, you cannot really prosecute easily on the claim that violence today was a consequence of what a religious clerc said last year for instance. I don't think that part has much bearing on the essence of what I posted.

The additional parts you included are the details of the law. I merely pointed out that the idea that anything can be said anywhere about any issue is not correct, as Kaparansos seemed to indicate. There are limits to free speech, and their being a cause of violence or the break of peace puts a restriction.


The details of the law are the key here:
(i) the breach of peace must be inminent
(ii) the breach of peace cannot be prevented by the police.

So, if you go to a black neighborhood in Washington DC and start insulting black people, that will probably be considered a breach of peace (see, for instance, Feiner v. New York, )

However, it is highly unlikely that the US Supreme Court will admit a conviction for breach of peace for anything printed in a newspaper, no matter how offensive the content is. Because the violence would not be considered "inminent" and could be prevented by the police. So, it's clear that the Danish cartoons can be legally published in the US with no fear of criminal prosecution.

Ays25
03-07-2007, 10:28 PM
i wont read the whole topic but i live in a muslim country and there is only about 5% of population wanting seriad.
+ im not muslim and so far i lived happily in peace here.

RonE
03-07-2007, 10:44 PM
Hard to tell really since talking about Islam is such a sensitive topic of conversation and when talking about the integration issue, many people on both sides do play the blame game IMO.

I don't really feel that the awareness is that high. I sure wasn't that aware of it until I went to Casablanca and noticed a difference in dress code and started talking to a Muslim about this issue of those conservative reference group stuck in time.

There's a strict seperation between religion and state in my country + freedom of religion. So, Muslims are free to have their religion, practice it, go to their Mosques,...
However, one of the more recent issues is the growing concern of how Islam is being taught to the younger generation of Muslims. I know that at least in The Netherlands and in Belgium (could be in other countries as well but I don't know about it), there's a discussion going about how it is taught, who gets to teach and what are they teaching. In other words, they're free to learn about their religion but maybe we should get more garantees that the teachers and religious leaders give a full picture of their religion instead of a limited one. The religious leaders and the teachers have to live up to a certain standard.


I've read quite a few articles on why some of the more extreme muslims are coming to cities like Brussels to try and teach the limited and ultra-conservative Islam religion just because they know that some of these European muslims are quite easy to influence because they have an identity crisis (they don't feel fully accepted in the country they live in but the country their parents/grandparents came from doesn't feel like home either) and some of these extremists take advantage of the limited knowledge of Arabic (certainly the written language) and Islam itself to teach them their restricted viewpoint.
However, I don't know how widespread that is. I'm certainly not claiming that every Islam teacher is as conservative.
The solution, many feel here, is not to ban Islam of course and tell them to fully accept our way of life (whatever that is) or else go "home" but to make sure that they do get a proper education.

And do you have think-tanks consisting of people from both groups and/or seminars to try and exchange view points and give air to new ideas?

Do you think trying to do something like that would be a positive influence and could maybe lead to some solutions?

Julio1974
03-07-2007, 11:18 PM
Hard to tell really since talking about Islam is such a sensitive topic of conversation and when talking about the integration issue, many people on both sides do play the blame game IMO.

I don't really feel that the awareness is that high. I sure wasn't that aware of it until I went to Casablanca and noticed a difference in dress code and started talking to a Muslim about this issue of those conservative reference group stuck in time.

There's a strict seperation between religion and state in my country + freedom of religion. So, Muslims are free to have their religion, practice it, go to their Mosques,...
However, one of the more recent issues is the growing concern of how Islam is being taught to the younger generation of Muslims. I know that at least in The Netherlands and in Belgium (could be in other countries as well but I don't know about it), there's a discussion going about how it is taught, who gets to teach and what are they teaching. In other words, they're free to learn about their religion but maybe we should get more garantees that the teachers and religious leaders give a full picture of their religion instead of a limited one. The religious leaders and the teachers have to live up to a certain standard.


I've read quite a few articles on why some of the more extreme muslims are coming to cities like Brussels to try and teach the limited and ultra-conservative Islam religion just because they know that some of these European muslims are quite easy to influence because they have an identity crisis (they don't feel fully accepted in the country they live in but the country their parents/grandparents came from doesn't feel like home either) and some of these extremists take advantage of the limited knowledge of Arabic (certainly the written language) and Islam itself to teach them their restricted viewpoint.
However, I don't know how widespread that is. I'm certainly not claiming that every Islam teacher is as conservative.
The solution, many feel here, is not to ban Islam of course and tell them to fully accept our way of life (whatever that is) or else go "home" but to make sure that they do get a proper education.

You are raising some interesting point here, esp. the one that European muslims are easier to influence because of their identity crisis. I would say, especially the younger ones, because the older generations are more integrated, as the article I posted explains.

I also agree with you that you cannot impose on them your way of life. But you can certainly teach them what I call core values and they should accept them. They cannot expect to live in Europe with their own rules, because that would be ridiculous.

Radical islamism is a problem that Europe will have to deal sooner o later. And moderate muslims have a big role to play in the solution of this problem.

R.Federer
03-07-2007, 11:36 PM
Well, with regards to CastaFiore's post, I think a big part of the problem lies with European societies and how poorly integrated new immigrants (even second generation) are with the native Europeans.

If you take a look at the U.S (and I lived there for many years), you don't have Muslims only intermingling with each other, letting religion be their primary identity. Sure it might happen to some, but it is not the overwhelming way in which you would see it. Income class, race, these are the things which define people primarily in the U.S. Although the U.S. has its own bag of troubles with integration, they overall have a warmer treatment of immigrants than does Europe. Germany, for example, has this policy of letting foreigners come and work for YEARS, with very little chance of naturalization. It is no wonder that Indian software geniuses all disappear to the U.S. where they have an actual method to be legal citizens in the long term.

In the US, even after 9/11, there were no (major) demonstrations by the Muslim community against the anti-Muslim-nations stance that the government took.

The only exception to that I would say with regards to the U.S. is African immigrants (especially third generation and older) in the UK, whom I felt were better integrated into British society than are African Americans in mainstream U.S. But my views on this even may be not shared by others.

RonE
03-07-2007, 11:46 PM
Radical islamism is a problem that Europe will have to deal sooner o later. And moderate muslims have a big role to play in the solution of this problem.

Yes that's spot on! I also think the taboo that Europe has on the issue i.e. let's not talk about it openly because some may find it offensive isn't helping matters- it is making it worse. You must first acknowledge you have a problem if you want to have any hope of solving it. That's why I asked if there were instances of moderate Moslems in think-tanks along with non-Moslems addressing these issues because only via dialogue and mutual understanding can these problems be solved.

R.Federer
03-08-2007, 12:03 AM
Yes that's spot on! I also think the taboo that Europe has on the issue i.e. let's not talk about it openly because some may find it offensive isn't helping matters- it is making it worse. You must first acknowledge you have a problem if you want to have any hope of solving it. That's why I asked if there were instances of moderate Moslems in think-tanks along with non-Moslems addressing these issues because only via dialogue and mutual understanding can these problems be solved.

In my experience/understanding, the moderate Muslims are almost like practising a different religion than the extremists. They take the Qu'ran as a holy book, with the understanding that it was written in a time with a context, that is not word for word relevant today. They do not espouse violence, they even "understand" (even though they do not like) why they are frisked more at airports. I have a Pakistani friend who loudly publicly criticizes Shariat law in the tribal areas of Pakistan. She is obviously moderate, she is a pacifist actually.

Having discussions with the moderates is better than nothing, but IMO it is ultimately useless if the goal is to have a better dialogue with the extremists, who are at the source of some of these problems.

Julio1974
03-08-2007, 12:36 AM
Well, with regards to CastaFiore's post, I think a big part of the problem lies with European societies and how poorly integrated new immigrants (even second generation) are with the native Europeans.

If you take a look at the U.S (and I lived there for many years), you don't have Muslims only intermingling with each other, letting religion be their primary identity.

That was also my impression when I lived there. American muslim community have significant differences with the British one. American's melting pot is still working despite all the criticism.

Action Jackson
03-08-2007, 06:27 AM
That was also my impression when I lived there. American muslim community have significant differences with the British one. American's melting pot is still working despite all the criticism.

Don't overlook the fact that it's easier for people from poorer backgrounds in Islamic nations to reach Europe than the US.

I am very happy to be an athiest.

Castafiore
03-08-2007, 08:19 AM
And do you have think-tanks consisting of people from both groups and/or seminars to try and exchange view points and give air to new ideas?

Do you think trying to do something like that would be a positive influence and could maybe lead to some solutions?
There are think-tanks like that but not enough and it's certainly a very sensitive issue when a moderate muslim tries to address a problem. Here, a muslim woman wrote a report about muslim youngsters. She claimed that the girls know that the European laws and the European system does give them more power and possibilities so they don't view it as hostile. They work harder, so the woman claimed, to get a good education and it pays because the feeling grows that they work hard to make sure that they are fully integrated. For her, the problem lies with the boys who grow up in a macho world and they have more tendency to fight the system instead of using it to their advantage.
This report caused a huge uproar, in part because some belief that the lack of integration is only to blame on the so-called "host" country not wanting them to integrate so why bother? As long as people on either side of this discussion doesn't accept part of the responsibliity of the problem, the progress will be very slow indeed. So, I think that we have a long road to go before they can have a real impact. Gradually (but maybe not fast enough), European Muslims are trying to come up with some sort of European Islam (to make their religion work within the local system) but it's far from easy.
On either side of the debate, the people with the extreme viewpoints talk louder at the moment.

In this European study (link), it says that there is progress but the progress is not coming from Muslim legal experts or Muslim theologians but from European judges. The judges don't claim their decisions have an Islam sense at all but the fact that the Muslims accept their decisions is an important fact, so the study says because there is work being done in trying to make Islam work within the European political and legal system.
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/policy_advisers/activities/dialogues_religions/docs/islam_droits_fondamentaux_final_25_10_2004_en.pdf


One of the problems in the communication, IMHO, is that most European countries have, due to our own messy history with religion and war, set up a strict division between state and religion and that goes far. For example, you won't hear a prime minister of Belgium every say "God bless Belgium" because our political leaders need to keep their religious beliefs private. A roman catholic can have his ideas on marriage, custody, abortion,...but in the end, when there's a dispute, only the law matters.
In Islam, I do believe (but somebody, correct me if I'm wrong), the division between state and religion is not that strict. The difference on the viewpoint of the place of a religion in a country or a community is an important distinction, I think.
Islam has certain values and rules about marriage, divorce, custody,... So, how compatible are they in a country that doesn't let religion influence laws?
In Belgium, you can marry in a church but the marriage is only recognized in legal issues after the couple has been legally married. So, officials try to make sure that muslim couples also marry legally so that the law can better protect the women in divorce, custody cases.

I once was present in a divorce case in Germany of a muslim couple coming from Pakistan. They came from a strict community with strict rules about marriage, ... (so, this is not a generalisation about Islam but just one case).
They settled in Germany but the woman began to realise the sort of freedom German women have and she wanted the freedom to build up her own life and she realised that it would be easier to accomplish there.
The man finally agreed but under his terms because were he came from, so the German lawyer explained to me, it's enough for a man to say in public out loud 3 times: "this woman is no longer my wife" and the divorce is final.
So, they had to explain the German rules to the man. The German lawyer had to study the divorce laws of the country of origin of the couple and his own laws for this case.
It was an interesting conversation just to see this man who's accustomed to his own Muslim laws struggle to understand the German law as far as marriage, divorce and custody are concerned. The man wanted to talk down about his wife because he didn't agree with her new found ideas about her own personal freedom but he kept apologizing to me about his language because according to his customs, he's not supposed to use that sort of language in front of women. So, he would start to talk down to his wife, followed by an apology to me after which he continued with his rant.

Having discussions with the moderates is better than nothing, but IMO it is ultimately useless if the goal is to have a better dialogue with the extremists, who are at the source of some of these problems.
I disagree with that. A dialogue with extremists is rather useless, that's true but the key for me is to make sure that the new generations don't go down the extremist path. Knowledge is power, as they say. If some of these European young muslims are in an identity crisis and when they are easier to influence for various reasons, you can either risk pushing a generation into the arms of a more extreme Islam OR you can make sure that they get access to a good education about Islam.


*sorry for the long ramble*

Julio1974
03-08-2007, 12:54 PM
Don't overlook the fact that it's easier for people from poorer backgrounds in Islamic nations to reach Europe than the US.

I am very happy to be an athiest.

That's a good point. There are another factors as well. Extremists were welcomed in the UK to preach during many many years before 9/11. Some of them were granted political asylum because they were prosecuted in their native countries.

mtw
03-08-2007, 02:18 PM
Sorry but free speech includes religions. If we're going to ban insult of religion, then we would have to ban insults of sports, ideologies, politicians, hum... Pretty much everything.

Insult is banned and especially in Poland. You remember this event, when good German press called our wonderful Mr President and curent excellent Primeminister: I quote: ,,small potatos". This poor journalist had problems. The same problems had our press or a politician, who called electorate of PIS: I quote:,,mohair berets" so called:,,Mohairs". Personally I think, that this qualification is very funny.
We can not insult each other. And insult of religion should be banned, because it is very sensitive theme. And what about sport, politics, politicians, ideologie it is not religion and criticism should and must be permitted.

mtw
03-08-2007, 02:33 PM
You are right, You don't understand anything.

All I can reply to your incoherent post is :haha: :haha:


You know, Argentinian Catholic. Paraphrasing from Bible: Find the beam in your eye and then later take care of splinter in the eye of your brother.
After reading your utterances, it seems, that you are not Catholic at all or you have no idea, how Catholicism looks like. I dont understand, where from so many hate to Muslims. And what did Muslims do for Argentinian. And maybe you are neither Catholic nor Argentinian.

mtw
03-08-2007, 02:35 PM
Those were dictatorships the Argentinian took place from 1976 to 1983 and the Chilean from 1974 to 1990.
Thank you for enlightenment. It was an answer for posts of one poster, who irritated me.

Julio1974
03-08-2007, 02:45 PM
You know, Argentinian Catholic. Paraphrasing from Bible: Find the beam in your eye and then later take care of splinter in the eye of your brother.
After reading your utterances, it seems, that you are not Catholic at all or you have no idea, how Catholicism looks like. I dont understand, where from so many hate to Muslims. And what did Muslims do for Argentinian. And maybe you are neither Catholic nor Argentinian.

I do not hate muslims at all. We are discussing about the integration problem that Europe is facing and how to deal with radical islamism preaching in Eruope. This is problem that none of the European people who have posted in this thread is denying (you are the only one)

As for what radical islamists did in Argentina, they committed two terrorist attacks in the 90's. Maybe you shoulld get informed before posting nosense.
On March 17, 1992. a bomb in front of the Israeli EMbassy in Buenos Aires killed 29 people and injured over 250. Among the victims were Israeli diplomats, children and clergy from a church located across the street, and other passerby.
On July 18, 1994, the AMIA Jewish community center in Buenos Aires was bombed; 87 people were killed, and over 100 injured.

mtw
03-08-2007, 02:50 PM
I do not hate muslims at all. We are discussing about the integration problem that Europe is facing and how to deal with radical islamism preaching in Eruope. This is problem that none of the European people who have posted in this thread is denying (you are the only one)

As for what radical islamists did in Argentina, they committed two terrorist attacks in the 90's. Maybe you shoulld get informed before posting nosense.

Do You live in Argentina?

Julio1974
03-08-2007, 02:55 PM
Do You live in Argentina?

Yes, but this is not a thread about Argentina. Please stick to the topic of the thread. If you want to open a thread about Argentina, be my guest.

If you don't have anything to say about radical islamism in Europe, the problem of integration of young muslims with identity crisis, and so on, then read what some European people posted here and learn something.

Jim Jones
03-08-2007, 03:00 PM
Islamim is a problem. Here in Switzerland even the kosovars who are supposed to be moderate do not integrate well in the country and many gang rapes are committed by them. Here they don't want sharia fortunately but still I can say with cetritude that there is a clash of civilizations as Samuel Huntington famously said.

mtw
03-08-2007, 03:17 PM
Yes, but this is not a thread about Argentina. Please stick to the topic of the thread. If you want to open a thread about Argentina, be my guest.

If you don't have anything to say about radical islamism in Europe, the problem of integration of young muslims with identity crisis, and so on, then read what some European people posted here and learn something.

You know. I like Argentinians very much and not only Argentinians. I like people from South America. I symphatise with Your poor nation and families of these people, who were murdered.
But I symphatise with these poor civilian people, who dies daily in Iraq ( 150 people during two last days ) and Afghanistan - civilian people in Afghanistan, who were killed by any airplane attack - so called ,,fight against Talibs".
We must not blame only Islam. This is monotheistic religion, alike our religion is. You understand. We must not get into hate for these people, because of their religion. The rules of this religion are not killing Christian or other people. We must not allow and call such situation, which can cause it. What for are these curent wars?
You must consider, that somebody trains extremists too and somebody gives money and weapon to them.
Besides I must reminf of it to You, that Osama Bin Laden and Hussein were big friends of US governments in the past. Bin Laden was trained by US ( I hope, that You saw Michael Moore s film about this theme . This film was in Polish cinemas a year ago or earlier ).

Action Jackson
03-08-2007, 03:19 PM
That's a good point. There are another factors as well. Extremists were welcomed in the UK to preach during many many years before 9/11. Some of them were granted political asylum because they were prosecuted in their native countries.

This is not an easy problem, but one that needs to be addressed. These extremists aren't different from other extremist groups, the select few know what message they are peddling and they play on the fringes and in this case, it's the younger generation who do suffer from discrimination and the casualisation and the changing place of the employment markets has helped. Of course they are going to look for someone to blame, but themselves, sometimes it's circumstance and other times not.

This plus other points mentioned like they don't feel they belong to one country and they are usually far removed from their parents or grandparents homelands that they are easy targets, in fact the strategies are no different from other gangs, just the message is different.

No, I am not defending radical Islam, cause I loathe all religions for different reasons. It's a dividing force and not a uniting one.

Svetlana.
03-08-2007, 04:41 PM
Itís a very complicated topic and very few can find the win-win solution. The difference between Western and Muslim style of life is so huge. They have absolutely different values and are not willing to tolerate style of life both societies have. Westerns are irritated that Muslim women don't have equal rights with men, and Muslims are irritated when they see the Gay parades or supported prostitution Western countries have.

We need to be more considerate and try to understand and respect each other first of all. But, I agree with this opinion - if Muslims want to live in Western countries, they should accept the rules of their new countries of residence.

RonE
03-08-2007, 11:26 PM
I found a really interesting congressional report on the subject of integration of Muslims in Europe. It is fairly recent and gives an overview of four major European countries: England, France, Germany and Spain, each country's background, ethnic composition, the ethnic origin of it's Muslim population, how each country's view on self determination affects that population, what measures are taken to integrate Muslims, how views are shifted in light of recent events etc etc.

It is a bit long- 47 pages- but if you have the time and patience I strongly recommend that you read it as it covers all those topics discussed in this thread and some that haven't been. I have personally found it very informative.

Here is a summary of the report (link to the actual report in the bottom of this post)

Muslims are the largest religious minority in Europe, and Islam is the fastest
growing religion. Europe’s Muslim population is ethnically and linguistically
diverse, and Muslim immigrants in Europe hail from a variety of Middle Eastern,
African, and Asian countries, as well as Turkey. Over the last few years, European
countries have stepped up efforts to integrate more fully their expanding Muslim
populations. Recent terrorist acts in Europe — such as the July 2005 London
bombings that were carried out by young Muslims born and/or bred in Europe —
have given further impetus to these initiatives. The widescale riots and violence that
broke out in late October 2005 throughout France in reaction to the deaths of two
young Muslims also highlight the alienation and discrimination that some European
Muslims feel and the need for European governments to address such societal
tensions.
This report examines the integration of Muslims into the United Kingdom,
France, Germany, and Spain. It also analyzes policies at the European Union (EU)
level that affect Muslim populations. However, key policies relating to integrating
Muslims into society — including citizenship laws, education, treatment of religious
institutions, and anti-discrimination measures — largely lie with individual
governments.
The countries discussed in this report have historically pursued somewhat
different policies with respect to managing their immigrant and minority populations.
However, none has been completely successful. Britain most fully embraced the
notion of “multiculturalism” — integration while maintaining identity — but some
believe that the UK has put too much emphasis on promoting diversity at the expense
of building a common society. France has long adhered to a policy that encourages
assimilation, but many French Muslims live in impoverished, almost exclusively
Muslim neighborhoods. Until recently, Germany and Spain made few efforts to
integrate their Muslim minorities, and in some cases, parallel societies developed.
None of the four countries examined in this report has a government that
believes that large parts of its Muslim populations are engaged in radical or terrorist
activities. However, there is a growing awareness that social deprivation,
discrimination, and a sense of cultural alienation may make some European Muslims
— especially those of the second or third generation — more vulnerable to extremist
ideologies. At the EU level, there is also new momentum to encourage better
integration and tackle the root causes of Islamist extremism given the EU’s largely
open borders and the recognition that halting or severely restricting immigration to
the EU is not an option in light of Europe’s aging population and declining birthrates.
This report may be updated as events warrant. For more information on
European efforts to counter terrorism and combat Islamist extremists, see CRS
Report RL31612, European Counterterrorist Efforts: Political Will and Diverse
Responses in the First Year after September 11, by Paul Gallis; and CRS Report
RS22211, Islamist Extremists in Europe, by Kristin Archick, coordinator.

Here is the link to the actual report: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33166.pdf

Richard_from_Cal
03-09-2007, 04:13 AM
There was something similar in the Wall Street Journal, about Muslim infiltration of Europe, following the end of the Cold War, and how NATO wasn't set up to guard against that.
I can't find that article, now many months or years gone, perhaps.

However, here is a snapshot of the U.K., from the C.I.A.:Ethnic groups:
white (of which English 83.6%, Scottish 8.6%, Welsh 4.9%, Northern Irish 2.9%) 92.1%, black 2%, Indian 1.8%, Pakistani 1.3%, mixed 1.2%, other 1.6% (2001 census)
Religions:
Christian (Anglican, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist) 71.6%, Muslim 2.7%, Hindu 1%, other 1.6%, unspecified or none 23.1% (2001 census)
....ya' got a lot more "unspecified or none" rolling around over there, for politicians to worry about. Why not pick on them?

R.Federer
03-09-2007, 06:46 AM
Thank you--- I hadn't seen this or any similar post, but my posts above were basically saying this and those were just my personal views. Including the part about UK having better integration. I also said the same way about Germany, although my example was about the calculated manner in which that government wants the services of foreign workers for YEARS, with no due respect to grant them citizenship after years (Switzerland also has issues like this, but somewhat more acceptable). These people's kids are raised in the foreign countries, this is the only place they know, build an identity in, and for no fault of theirs, they cannot even call this home. Can you do alienation any better?!




Here is a summary of the report (link to the actual report in the bottom of this post)
Here is the link to the actual report: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33166.pdf

R.Federer
03-09-2007, 06:53 AM
Continuation of above post,

Long road to Swiss citizenship


Swiss voters will go to the polls on 26 September to decide on government proposals to relax the laws on naturalisation.

Switzerland has some of the toughest citizenship rules in the world - the power to decide who can be Swiss or not lies with local communities.
Foreign residents typically have to live at least 12 years in the country before they can apply, and they have to pay a fee, which can amount to tens of thousands of dollars.

Furthermore, being born in Switzerland carries no right to be Swiss, the children and even grandchildren of foreign immigrants are not entitled to citizenship.

Reforms proposed

Now the government wants to make things easier. The new law proposes automatic citizenship for third generation immigrants, and an easier naturalistion process for the second generation.

Roland Schaerer, who is head of the government's department of naturalisation, drafted the new proposals. He believes Switzerland's current system no longer works.


"There are seven million people in this country," he explained.
"And 1.5 million are not Swiss. We've got children who were born here, who are growing up just like Swiss children, but feel excluded because they know they won't be able to participate in our democratic process.

"That's not just bad for them, it's bad for our society; a healthy democracy requires that everyone participates."

Desire to vote

Supporters of the changes say that, in Switzerland in particular, denying the vote to such a large section of the population is very unfair.

The Swiss system of direct democracy means that the people vote on just about everything, from the appointment of teachers in the village school to whether the government should cut interest on state pensions.

For young foreigners in Switzerland, the lack of a voice is a source of deep frustration.

Fatma Karademir, who is 23, was born in Switzerland and has never lived anywhere else. But the Swiss authorities say she is Turkish, because her parents emigrated from Turkey over 40 years ago.

"I feel like I am Swiss though," Fatma says. "I went to school here, I speak the language, my friends are Swiss; now I want them to make it
official, I want the passport and I want to be able to vote."

Following current Swiss law, Fatma has already applied for citizenship through her local village citizenship committee.

They rejected her, saying she would have to live there another 10 years before they could really judge her suitability to be Swiss. :rolleyes:

And she knows that when she does finally appear before the citizenship committee, the fact that she has lived all her life in Switzerland will count less than the answers she will give to the committee's questions.

"They'll ask me if I can imagine marrying a Swiss boy," she explains. "Or if I like Swiss music, or who I'll support if Switzerland play Turkey at football - really stupid questions."

People Power

The right of local communities to judge each and every application for citizenship individually is fiercely defended by many voters, who believe that local people are best placed to decide who is ready to be Swiss, and who is not.

In recent years, the system has led to some rather unfair decisions. In some Swiss towns, applicants with any connection to the Balkans, or to Africa, are regularly rejected, even if they satisfy all the legal requirements for naturalisation.

But the right-wing Swiss People's Party, currently the largest party in parliament, is firmly opposed to any relaxation of the system. Delegates have launched a vitriolic campaign to persuade voters that the government cannot be trusted to decide on citizenship.


Integration means that someone obeys our laws, and that he knows and understands our way of life and accepts that
Ulrich Schluehr, People's Party

The party's posters, portraying hands, many of them black, snatching at Swiss passports, appeal to fear and prejudice among the voters.
The party has also produced mock newspaper articles, claiming that if the laws on citizenship are relaxed, Muslims will soon outnumber Christians in Switzerland.

Television debates on the citizenship issue have produced some bitter arguments, with many participants making it clear that they don't think anyone from former Yugoslavia is fit to be Swiss.

The phrase "It's a different culture", has been a constant refrain. Opponents of the new law claim there are some nationalities which cannot possibly be integrated into the Swiss way of life.

"Integration means that someone obeys our laws, and that he knows and understands our way of life and accepts that," said People's Party member of parliament Ulrich Schluehr.

His fellow member of parliament Jasmin Hutter was quick to clarify what integration meant for her. "You know one of my best friends is Turkish originally," she explained. "But really you'd never know it, she's just like a Swiss person."


Being Swiss is not something special for me, it's a simple fact of who I am
Fatma

For young people like Fatma Karademir, comments like these are depressing signs that the country which is her home is not ready to accept her as a full citizen.
"It's as if they are saying to us, fine, live here, work here, and pay your taxes," she said. "And then after a long time, if we think you are good enough, we'll reward you with a Swiss passport."

"We're all good enough," she continued. "Being Swiss is not something special for me, it's a simple fact of who I am. If they give me the passport it will be a sign that they accept that; that they say 'yes, you do belong'."

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/3673736.stm

Castafiore
03-09-2007, 07:42 AM
^
Well, the situation varies from country to country. Switzerland seems to be a rather extreme example to use when discussing integration in the EU.
I can't speak for most European countries but I do know that the process to become Belgian has been made easier fairly recently and esp. for those who have a strong connection with the country, like being born and/or having been raised there, having one parent with the Belgian nationality,...
That Turkish woman in your article would have no problem in becoming Belgian if she had been raised in that country.

Julio1974
03-09-2007, 02:33 PM
The report mentions that some critics blame multiculturalism in the UK for "helping entrech discrete muslims communties in the UK, functioning apart in some cases from mainstream British society". That was exaclty my point when I said multiculturalism was one of the problem.

Julio1974
03-09-2007, 02:43 PM
^
Well, the situation varies from country to country. Switzerland seems to be a rather extreme example to use when discussing integration in the EU.
I can't speak for most European countries but I do know that the process to become Belgian has been made easier fairly recently and esp. for those who have a strong connection with the country, like being born and/or having been raised there, having one parent with the Belgian nationality,...
That Turkish woman in your article would have no problem in becoming Belgian if she had been raised in that country.

What is interesting, at least, from my perspective, is the fact that in some European countries you don't get the nationality just for being born there, as in the US or in Argentina. I had a Turkish friend who was the third generation in Germany and she still did not have the German nationality.

mtw
03-09-2007, 04:11 PM
What is interesting, at least, from my perspective, is the fact that in some European countries you don't get the nationality just for being born there, as in the US or in Argentina. I had a Turkish friend who was the third generation in Germany and she still did not have the German nationality.

The cultural differences are very big. What for need your friends German citizenschip? Maybe Turkey will be in EU soon and in a few years the citizens of EU will have one proof of evidence ( European ). Citizenschip of Germany will be not needed then. People go to work to states of EU, not to have citizenschip, but to make money.
Besides I dont know, how national identity in Turkey looks like. Do they not feel, that they are Turkish? Are they not proud of it? I dont know.
Majority of Polish people feel our Polish nationality.
You see, that these wars in Iraq and Afghanistan was redundant. It was needed to think earlier. Now it is humane catastrophe - 1,8 mln refugees from Iraq. And what do USA want to do with these people now? I hope, that they will take all these refugees to own country, because they are originators of this and the smaller part of refugees will take UK.
Poland did not take part in war activities practically. My state covered backs. It looks practically, like Poland was not there.

Julio1974
03-09-2007, 06:12 PM
The cultural differences are very big. What for need your friends German citizenschip? Maybe Turkey will be in EU soon and in a few years the citizens of EU will have one proof of evidence ( European ). Citizenschip of Germany will be not needed then. People go to work to states of EU, not to have citizenschip, but to make money.
Besides I dont know, how national identity in Turkey looks like. Do they not feel, that they are Turkish? Are they not proud of it? I dont know.
Majority of Polish people feel our Polish nationality.


Why did she want the German nationality? Well, she spoke German as well as any German, she was born in Germany, she went to a German primary school a German secondary school, she studied in a German university. Maybe she wanted to vote, to be a part of the country where she was born and where she lives. Of course, she felt Turkish too but it is not contradictory. If you are concerned about integration, you should think about the consequences of your nationality policy.

See also the example given by the Swiss poster.

mtw
03-10-2007, 01:43 PM
Why did she want the German nationality? Well, she spoke German as well as any German, she was born in Germany, she went to a German primary school a German secondary school, she studied in a German university. Maybe she wanted to vote, to be a part of the country where she was born and where she lives. Of course, she felt Turkish too but it is not contradictory. If you are concerned about integration, you should think about the consequences of your nationality policy.

See also the example given by the Swiss poster.

I worked in Germany too and I want to work there later too, but I dont want to have German citizenschip, because I dont feel myself, as German. Germany is very good, decent, proper, tidy state with clever leaders. I admire Germany and I think, that this state is really good. Of course people, who work there make their best even without citizenschip.
I have heard, that granting of citizenschip in Germany has such rules, as: 10 years of work in Germany and then exam from German history and knowledge about Germany. You know, if somebody wants to become German, then must have knowledge about Germany and accept the rules of this state. As I mentioned the culture of Muslims or Jews is difference, that culture of European Christians or atheists. I think, that granting of citizenschip of Europe should be made easier for Christians or even atheists from South America, because they are cultural closer to Europe, than Muslims or Jews. It is not acceptable to force people to change of faith, because they must be adaptable. And we can not change our rules too.
Besides I have heard, that they have problems with Muslims youth in schools, because they are very agressive.
I think, that easy granting of citizenschip should be given to political refugees, if life of this people is endangered in manifest way.

Jim Jones
03-10-2007, 05:36 PM
The cultural differences are very big. What for need your friends German citizenschip? Maybe Turkey will be in EU soon and in a few years the citizens of EU will have one proof of evidence ( European ). Citizenschip of Germany will be not needed then. People go to work to states of EU, not to have citizenschip, but to make money.
Besides I dont know, how national identity in Turkey looks like. Do they not feel, that they are Turkish? Are they not proud of it? I dont know.
Majority of Polish people feel our Polish nationality.
You see, that these wars in Iraq and Afghanistan was redundant. It was needed to think earlier. Now it is humane catastrophe - 1,8 mln refugees from Iraq. And what do USA want to do with these people now? I hope, that they will take all these refugees to own country, because they are originators of this and the smaller part of refugees will take UK.
Poland did not take part in war activities practically. My state covered backs. It looks practically, like Poland was not there.

Turkey will never be part of EU, mark my word. ALso Kosovo will not get its cherised independance. It will be like Taiwan independant in all but name with the northern part in control of Serbian rule.

I am not against Turkey joining the EU but they have to adopt our values. Yes our values have been influenced by Chrisitanity but we are not asking the Turks to convert but to just to adopt western values, recognize Armenian genocide, recognize and protect their minorities and allow and EU ctizen to live in Turkey. (Ethnic Greeks were booted out of Turkey by the 1950s whereas Greece with its western outlook allowed Turkish minority to stay in Greece).

Julio1974
03-10-2007, 06:09 PM
Turkey will never be part of EU, mark my word. ALso Kosovo will not get its cherised independance. It will be like Taiwan independant in all but name with the northern part in control of Serbian rule.

I am not against Turkey joining the EU but they have to adopt our values. Yes our values have been influenced by Chrisitanity but we are not asking the Turks to convert but to just to adopt western values, recognize Armenian genocide, recognize and protect their minorities and allow and EU ctizen to live in Turkey. (Ethnic Greeks were booted out of Turkey by the 1950s whereas Greece with its western outlook allowed Turkish minority to stay in Greece).

I agree, at least not in the next 50 yrs.

mtw
03-12-2007, 01:19 PM
I agree, at least not in the next 50 yrs.

I think, that Turkey will be some day in EU, but Israel will be never.

safinaferrero
03-13-2007, 01:55 AM
Can't help buthttp://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/Mwarp/Random%20crap/th_this_sucks1.jpg

zicofirol
03-13-2007, 05:15 AM
because it criticizes Islam? is that religion untouchable?

I would like to add to the funny images collection you started...

http://www.humanevents.com/images/islm_cartoon_6.jpg

http://www.humanevents.com/images/islm_cartoon_9.jpg

safinaferrero
03-13-2007, 12:17 PM
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f59/getulio/Thread%20Pics/stupidthread.jpg

buddyholly
03-13-2007, 01:40 PM
Poor safinaferrero, running around MTF with his/her hands over his/her ears and eyes, trying to stomp out offending posts that are critical of Islamic extremism.
Apart from that he/she has absolutely nothing to say.

By the way, isn't your avatar offensive to Islam?

buddyholly
03-13-2007, 02:26 PM
I think all those political and religion topics shouldn't be discuss in a tennis board

I won't post more in this thread because it will be useless as some people here are so convinced in their thoughts but i needed to say so i can't intolerance more than stupidity.
:angel:&Peace& :angel:

So do you think there should be no ''Non-tennis'' section, or that non-tennis subjects should be restricted to topics that you approve?

Your promise to not post any more was false?

zicofirol
03-13-2007, 04:24 PM
So do you think there should be no ''Non-tennis'' section, or that non-tennis subjects should be restricted to topics that you approve?

Your promise to not post any more was false?

haha well put, and yes that avatar is offensive to Islam...

safinaferrero
03-14-2007, 02:19 AM
sorry buddyholly but i couldn't help this is so stupid racist there are no words to describ those topics it's not a matter of section i think there isn't any section for racism on this board that's all .

Then about my avatar :ras: u're not even muslim :lol: this religion is so big that it's not an avatar that will means i'm a bad muslim and again buddyholly no need to complain me i @ least i can see myself in the mirror without thinking i'm racist and i have something to say but you not u dt even try to understand so waste of time debating something with u .

Have u ever read the Quran ? i'm sure u guys not and i DID so i know what im talking about more than u'll ever know