Rod Laver was the most successful JOURNEYMAN ever [#2 was Canas] [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Rod Laver was the most successful JOURNEYMAN ever [#2 was Canas]

CmonAussie
02-21-2007, 11:54 AM
Canas has only won 7-titles total~> though he sure has won them in some of the World`s far corners [the definitive JOURNEYMAN]!!:cool:

2001--Casablanca [Africa]
2002--Chennai [Asia], Montreal / Toronto [Nth America]
2004--Shanghai [Asia], Stuttgart, Umag [Europe]
2007--Costa Do Sauipe [Sth America]

...
>> So Canas has 7-titles on 5-contintents [though spread years apart]~> this is quite impressive!!!<:)
..
If Canas can win in Australia or New Zealand then he`ll complete the set [until they come up with the Antarctica Open];)


PS.. I deliberately chose to steer away from Canas`s controversial drug ban, since it`s been discussed at length elswhere, though of course this is also part of his journey!!

Byrd
02-21-2007, 11:55 AM
You just posted these stats in another thread, no need to post another thread for them, there not that great.

CmonAussie
02-21-2007, 11:57 AM
You just posted these stats in another thread, no need to post another thread for them, there not that great.


Thanks for your positive contribution:rolleyes:

Pea
02-21-2007, 01:43 PM
He deserves a slam.

CmonAussie
02-21-2007, 02:14 PM
#@@#.
...
Thomas Johansson has been classified as a `journeyman` by many tennis journalists over the years!!! And yet he`s a Slam Winner<:)


ToJo`s sweet journey*``*!


1. 10 March 1997 Copenhagen, Denmark Carpet Martin Damm 6-4 3-6 6-2
2. 17 March 1997 St. Petersburg, Russia Carpet Renzo Furlan 6-3 6-4
3. 02 August 1999 Montreal, Canada Hard Yevgeny Kafelnikov 1-6 6-3 6-3
4. 20 November 2000 Stockholm, Sweden Hard Yevgeny Kafelnikov 6-2 6-4 6-4
5. 11 June 2001 Halle, Germany Grass Fabrice Santoro 6-3 6-7 6-2
6. 18 June 2001 Nottingham, Great Britain Grass Harel Levy 7-5 6-3
7. 14 January 2002 Australian Open Hard Marat Safin 3-6 6-4 6-4 7-6
8. 25 October 2004 Stockholm, Sweden Hard Andre Agassi 3-6 6-3 7-6
9. 30 October 2005 St. Petersburg, Russia Hard Nicolas Kiefer 6-4 6-2

ExcaliburII
02-21-2007, 03:15 PM
Only three continents, most titles at Europe, he is not a journeyman.

GlennMirnyi
02-21-2007, 03:23 PM
He deserves a slam.

No.

Voo de Mar
02-21-2007, 03:34 PM
...
>> So Canas has 7-titles on 5-contintents [though spread years apart]~> this is quite impressive!!!<:)
..
If Canas can win in Australia or New Zealand then he`ll complete the set [until they come up with the Antarctica Open];) [/B]


In 2004 Cañas won a Challenger in New Caledonia :D NC is located in the southwest Pacific Ocea nearly to Australian and New Zealand :yeah: And he defeated then two Australian players: Bourgeois & Reid.

+alonso
02-21-2007, 07:50 PM
Cañas isn't a journeyman! :rolleyes:

Chris Seahorse
02-21-2007, 07:57 PM
Cañas certainly doesn't fit in with my criteria for a journeyman either. But some of these words mean different things to different people I guess.

nisha
02-21-2007, 08:08 PM
can someone explain to me what a journeymen is?

sondraj06
02-21-2007, 08:12 PM
^ yeah me too.

Byrd
02-21-2007, 08:13 PM
Thanks for your positive contribution:rolleyes:

Answer me this, how can he be a journeyman when hes won a masters series and QF of the french open on more than 1 occasion hence your thread makes no sense whatsoever :wavey:

scarecrows
02-21-2007, 08:15 PM
Acasuso is the definite journeyman

I can imagine his journeys after smoking that shit :rolleyes:

Gonzalo81
02-21-2007, 08:21 PM
You can call him whatever you want...;)

I´ll just call him one hell of a fighter :bounce:

Macbrother
02-21-2007, 08:32 PM
can someone explain to me what a journeymen is?

By definition a journeyman in any sport or trade is someone who is average; competent, but not great and doesn't stand out in anyway. In tennis terms this is someone who hovers around 75-200+ and never really has a breakout showing in a big tournament. Of course like anything what people qualify as "average" varies greatly.

Denise
02-21-2007, 09:15 PM
Canas :ras:

Chris Seahorse
02-21-2007, 09:31 PM
By definition a journeyman in any sport or trade is someone who is average; competent, but not great and doesn't stand out in anyway. In tennis terms this is someone who hovers around 75-200+ and never really has a breakout showing in a big tournament. Of course like anything what people qualify as "average" varies greatly.

Yup. That would fit my definition too. The one other criteria I would add to that is that they have to have been around a long time. I wouldn't call anyone a journeyman regardless of their rank under the age of 27, and even then they would have to have been ranked for at least 7 or 8 years. Personally I would nominate someone like big Dick Norman or Lars Burgsmuller or Konstantinos Economidis or Alessio di Mauro as good examples of journeymen. The French, Germans and Italians seem to be especially good in producing journeymen I would say.

nisha
02-21-2007, 10:41 PM
thanx for the explanation.

joeb_uk
02-21-2007, 10:45 PM
Cañas certainly doesn't fit in with my criteria for a journeyman either. But some of these words mean different things to different people I guess.

His masters series win alone takes him beyond a journeyman, what a win that was.

Voo de Mar
02-21-2007, 10:47 PM
I think this is also a good (and short) general definition:
Journeyman - An experienced and competent worker, but not an outstanding one :D

Action Jackson
02-21-2007, 10:49 PM
Federer.

Kolya
02-21-2007, 11:36 PM
Sanguinetti.

ticktockclok
02-22-2007, 04:33 AM
What about Santoro?

MissPovaFan
02-22-2007, 04:51 AM
N o way can Canas be described as a journeyman - he has hit top ten and Im sure would still be there if it wasnt for the ban.

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 05:08 AM
Yup. That would fit my definition too. The one other criteria I would add to that is that they have to have been around a long time. I wouldn't call anyone a journeyman regardless of their rank under the age of 27, and even then they would have to have been ranked for at least 7 or 8 years. Personally I would nominate someone like big Dick Norman or Lars Burgsmuller or Konstantinos Economidis or Alessio di Mauro as good examples of journeymen. The French, Germans and Italians seem to be especially good in producing journeymen I would say.

:wavey:
Your definition of Journeyman is pretty similiar to mine;)

Don`t you classify Canas as a journeyman thought:confused:
...

CANAS case:

*Never been a major force
*Only made the QF stage at a slam once
*Never been considered as a potential slam winner
*Playing the ATP tour for nearly a decade
*Travels the far corners of the World to win titles [Casablanca, New Caledonia]:cool:
*Doesn`t have any big weapons in his game
*Very much a grinder & courageous
*Has been forced to play at the Challenger Level on several occassions
*Got banned for two years & yet still put in the hard yards at training
*Though he snuck into the Top-10 briefly [late 04] for most of his career he`s been ranked much lower [several times outside the Top-100]
*Lost 4/5 of finals at the beginning of his career
*Apart from Canada TMS 2002~ all of Canas`s other wins have been MM events
*7-titles on 5-continents [6-continents if you include Challenger wins]~> JOURNEYman for sure:worship:
*

Hendu
02-22-2007, 05:17 AM
:wavey:
Your definition of Journeyman is pretty similiar to mine;)

Don`t you classify Canas as a journeyman thought:confused:
...

CANAS case:

*Never been a major force
*Only made the QF stage at a slam once
*Never been considered as a potential slam winner
*Playing the ATP tour for nearly a decade
*Travels the far corners of the World to win titles [Casablanca, New Caledonia]:cool:
*Doesn`t have any big weapons in his game
*Very much a grinder & courageous
*Has been forced to play at the Challenger Level on several occassions
*Got banned for two years & yet still put in the hard yards at training
*Though he snuck into the Top-10 briefly [late 04] for most of his career he`s been ranked much lower [several times outside the Top-100]
*Lost 4/5 of finals at the beginning of his career
*Apart from Canada TMS 2002~ all of Canas`s other wins have been MM events
*7-titles on 5-continents [6-continents if you include Challenger wins]~> JOURNEYman for sure:worship:
*

In 1999 he finished the year at #70.
In 2000 he injured his left wrist, and went down to #231 (4 months outside the court).
In 2001 his year end ranking was #15. Won Casablanca. He was awarded as the Comeback Player of the Year.
In 2002 he won Toronto AMS and Chennai, and ended the year also as #15. And got injured at the end of the year.
In 2003 because of a wrist tedonitis and a stress fracture on his hand, he only played 6 tournaments and at the year end ranking he was #272.
He finished 2004 at #12. Winning Shanghai, Stuttgart and Umag.
In 2005, he was top ten for three months, but got the suspension and ended the year outside the top 100.
He started playing again in September 2006, he was ranked #514.
Now, he is back in the top 100. after winning Costa do Sauipe.

Definitely not a journeyman.

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 05:19 AM
In 2004 Cañas won a Challenger in New Caledonia :D NC is located in the southwest Pacific Ocea nearly to Australian and New Zealand :yeah: And he defeated then two Australian players: Bourgeois & Reid.

:wavey:
Thanks for this:cool: ~> yeah New Caledonia is definitely part of the continent Australasia;)
...
The fact that Canas was playing challengers in 2004, when he was at the peak of his powers, & prior to the drug ban, just reinforces my point that he`s struggled at several times in his career [JourneyMan]:cool:

TMJordan
02-22-2007, 05:21 AM
No way could you call Willy a journeyman!

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 05:22 AM
In 1999 he finished the year at #70.
In 2000 he injured his left wrist, and went down to #231 (4 months outside the court).
In 2001 his year end ranking was #15. Won Casablanca. He was awarded as the Comeback Player of the Year.
In 2002 he won Toronto AMS and Chennai, and ended the year also as #15. And got injured at the end of the year.
In 2003 because of a wrist tedonitis and a stress fracture on his hand, he only played 6 tournaments and at the year end ranking he was #272.
He finished 2004 at #12. Winning Shanghai, Stuttgart and Umag.
In 2005, he was top ten for three months, but got the suspension and ended the year outside the top 100.
He started playing again in September 2006, he was ranked #514.
Now, he is back in the top 100. after winning Costa do Sauipe.

Definitely not a journeyman.


:wavey:
Funny~> most of your points reinforce the fact that he`s a journeyman [in my opinion];)
...
Anyway, >> the question remains- who do you consider the greatest journeyman then:confused: :confused:

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 05:23 AM
No way could you call Willy a journeyman!

>>> That`s fine, though you could give some reasons or your definition;)
...
This thread`s question remains~~
...Who do you consider to be the most successful Journeyman in ATP history:confused: :confused:

TMJordan
02-22-2007, 05:25 AM
I would say the Silver Fox is a good example of a journeyman ;)

Hendu
02-22-2007, 05:29 AM
*Never been a major force not true
*Only made the QF stage at a slam once twice
*Never been considered as a potential slam winner not true he was considered one in RG a couple of times
*Playing the ATP tour for nearly a decade yes
*Travels the far corners of the World to win titles [Casablanca, New Caledonia] irrelevant
*Doesn`t have any big weapons in his game not true strong forehand, great returning skills, solid serve
*Very much a grinder & courageous and other things
*Has been forced to play at the Challenger Level on several occassions because of injuries or suspensions, but he always jumped back to the top
*Got banned for two years & yet still put in the hard yards at training irrelevant to the matter
*Though he snuck into the Top-10 briefly [late 04] for most of his career he`s been ranked much lower [several times outside the Top-100] the same of #8
*Lost 4/5 of finals at the beginning of his career irrelevant won 7, lost 7
*Apart from Canada TMS 2002~ all of Canas`s other wins have been MM events true but in Toronto he defeated 4 top ten players
*7-titles on 5-continents [6-continents if you include Challenger wins]~>: [/B] irrelevant

BlakeorHenman
02-22-2007, 05:29 AM
What about Santoro?

Santoro will forever be consideredone of the great magicians and underachievers of the sport... but not at all AUS last year?

CooCooCachoo
02-22-2007, 05:42 AM
Cañas a journeyman? :haha: :tape:

Fedex
02-22-2007, 05:59 AM
Well that is if you consider him a journeyman. I dont myself.

LocoPorElTenis
02-22-2007, 06:17 AM
The question doesn't make sense. By definition a journeyman isn't very successful. If he becomes successful he's no longer a journeyman. It's like asking what's the darkest of all bright colors.

Hendu
02-22-2007, 06:26 AM
The question doesn't make sense. By definition a journeyman isn't very successful. If he becomes successful he's no longer a journeyman. It's like asking what's the darkest of all bright colors.

A journeyman who made the top 15 every year he was injury free, got to be #8 in the world, won 7 ATP titles, one of them being an AMS plus reaching other 7 finals, defeating top ten players several times...

This is hilarious.

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 06:57 AM
The question doesn't make sense. By definition a journeyman isn't very successful. If he becomes successful he's no longer a journeyman. It's like asking what's the darkest of all bright colors.


So your definition of a journeyman is as simple as someone who "isn`t very successful":confused:
...
So what do you call people who:
Aren`t great
Never come close to winning slams
Stick around for a long time
Travel the far corners of the World in search of a paycheck
& through sheer persistence manage to win a few MM events
:confused: :confused:

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 07:02 AM
A journeyman who made the top 15 every year he was injury free, got to be #8 in the world, won 7 ATP titles, one of them being an AMS plus reaching other 7 finals, defeating top ten players several times...

This is hilarious.


:wavey:
It`s amusing that you seem to take offense at me cally Canas a journeyman:eek:
...
Actually I was giving him a big compliment by calling him the `most successful journeyman in ATP history`;)
...
...
Canas:

Isn`t great [2 Slam QFs don`t make you great]:p
He doesn`t suck [we know the guy can play a fierce game]:devil:
...
So how should we label Canas???

You would prefer I simply call him ~ a good middle-of the road player:confused:
...
Greatest Journeyman isn`t a derogatory term:eek:

joeb_uk
02-22-2007, 12:16 PM
Spadea is the ideal journeyman.

Loftra
02-22-2007, 12:26 PM
Dick Norman

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 01:47 PM
Sjeng Schalken is another candidate for most successful JOURNEYman<:)

1 1995 Valencia, Spain Clay [Europe]
2 1996 Jakarta, Indonesia Hardcourt [Asia]
3 1997 Boston, USA Hardcourt [Nth America]
4 1999 Auckland, New Zealand Hardcourt [Australasia]
5 2000 Tokyo, Japan Hardcourt [Asia]
6 2001 Stockholm, Sweden Hardcourt [Europe]
7 2002 's-Hertogenbosch, The Netherlands Grass [Europe]
8 2003 's-Hertogenbosch, The Netherlands Grass [Europe]
9 2003 Costa do Sauipe, Brazil Hardcourt [Sth America]

Action Jackson
02-22-2007, 01:49 PM
Cañas a journeyman that is hilarious.

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 01:55 PM
Cañas a journeyman that is hilarious.


I don`t mind a difference of opinion, but you could A: tell me your definition of journeyman:confused: , B: tell me who you think the greatest journeyman is/was:confused:

Action Jackson
02-22-2007, 02:12 PM
I don`t mind a difference of opinion, but you could A: tell me your definition of journeyman:confused: , B: tell me who you think the greatest journeyman is/was:confused:

There are already enough reasons as to why Cañas isn't a journeyman.

Who he beat to win in Canada.

R64 - Roger Federer (SUI) by 7-6(10),7-5
R32 - Paradorn Srichaphan (THA) by 6-2,6-1
R16 - Yevgeny Kafelnikov (RUS) by 6-2,6-2
Q - Marat Safin (RUS) by 7-5,6-3
S - Tommy Haas (GER) by 6-4,3-6,7-6(5)
W - Andy Roddick (USA) by 6-4,7-5

Fromberg, Skoff, David Sanchez, Vicente, Horna (at a stretch), Vliegen, Chela these guys could be considered journeymen, but not Cañas and not Schalken either.

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 02:21 PM
There are already enough reasons as to why Cañas isn't a journeyman.

Who he beat to win in Canada.

R64 - Roger Federer (SUI) by 7-6(10),7-5
R32 - Paradorn Srichaphan (THA) by 6-2,6-1
R16 - Yevgeny Kafelnikov (RUS) by 6-2,6-2
Q - Marat Safin (RUS) by 7-5,6-3
S - Tommy Haas (GER) by 6-4,3-6,7-6(5)
W - Andy Roddick (USA) by 6-4,7-5

Fromberg, Skoff, David Sanchez, Vicente, Horna (at a stretch), Vliegen, Chela these guys could be considered journeymen, but not Cañas and not Schalken either.

:cool:
Yeah Canas did some damage that week~> & on a hardcourt beating all those guys has to be one of the best runs to win a title ever:worship:
...
...
So by your definition any player who wins more than 3-Mickey Mouse ATP titles is no longer eligible for JourneyMan status:confused:
[Looking at your list of journeymen~ many of them won titles but none more than 3 (it seems)]..

oz_boz
02-22-2007, 02:23 PM
Everyone complaining about Canas being named a journeyman; yet the mentioning of ToJo takes the cake.

Slam winner, AMS winner, Wimbly SF, double USO QF, ranked 7 at best. Only Fed, Guga, Nadal, Safin, Hewitt, Roddick, Moya and JCF have had better careers of the active players. If ToJo is a journeyman, then who isn't?

Action Jackson
02-22-2007, 02:24 PM
Everyone complaining about Canas being named a journeyman; yet the mentioning of ToJo takes the cake.

Slam winner, AMS winner, Wimbly SF, double USO QF, ranked 7 at best. Only Fed, Guga, Nadal, Safin, Hewitt, Roddick, Moya and JCF have had better careers of the active players. If ToJo is a journeyman, then who isn't?

Who called Johansson a journeyman?

Voo de Mar
02-22-2007, 02:25 PM
Thomas Zib is for me a good example of a journeyman.

Action Jackson
02-22-2007, 02:28 PM
So by your definition any player who wins more than 3-Mickey Mouse ATP titles is no longer eligible for JourneyMan status:confused:
[Looking at your list of journeymen~ many of them won titles but none more than 3 (it seems)]..

You insulted Cañas by calling him a journeyman and all those guys mentioned are journeymen compared to him. Does it matter that I happen to like most of the guys mentioned.

Seppi, Kohlschreiber, Sanguinetti, Marc Lopez, Behrend they are journeymen to differing degrees.

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 02:29 PM
Everyone complaining about Canas being named a journeyman; yet the mentioning of ToJo takes the cake.

Slam winner, AMS winner, Wimbly SF, double USO QF, ranked 7 at best. Only Fed, Guga, Nadal, Safin, Hewitt, Roddick, Moya and JCF have had better careers of the active players. If ToJo is a journeyman, then who isn't?


:wavey:
Hey Boz [Boss]
...
Again I wouldn`t mind your difference of opinion, but you could atleast tell me who you think the greatest journeyman player was:confused:

Also about ToJo: ~i merely mentioned him because the media has often referred to him as a Journeyman player [not to say it`s true], though the media sometimes shape public perception... Then it opens up the argument as to~ what is a journeyman player [how should they be defined];)

Voo de Mar
02-22-2007, 02:33 PM
You insulted Cañas by calling him a journeyman and all those guys mentioned are journeymen compared to him. Does it matter that I happen to like most of the guys mentioned.

Seppi, Kohlschreiber, Sanguinetti, Marc Lopez, Behrend they are journeymen to differing degrees.

Sanguinetti isn't for me a JM. This man played Wimbledon's quarter final and the Davis Cup final :confused:

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 02:36 PM
You insulted Cañas by calling him a journeyman and all those guys mentioned are journeymen compared to him. Does it matter that I happen to like most of the guys mentioned.

Seppi, Kohlschreiber, Sanguinetti, Marc Lopez, Behrend they are journeymen to differing degrees.


;)
George I think you hit the nail on the head>> that`s why so many posters on MTF are annoyed at me, because they perceived that I insulted their favourite players:sad:
...
Actually I don`t consider labelling Canas as `the greatest JourneyMan` any kind of insult, rather it`s a compliment;)
...
How else are we going to label Canas:confused:
...
Good middle of the road player, never a contender in slams, had one biggish win at an AMS event, forced to play challengers throughout periods of his career, literally travels everywhere in search of a pay check, gets overly harsh treatment for stupidity a few years ago & drops to ~#500 in the World, wins another MM event nearly 3-years since his last one.... A LABEL like this might seem a tad LONG-WINDED:p ... Instead I call him the GREATEST JourneyMan:cool:

Action Jackson
02-22-2007, 02:46 PM
;)
George I think you hit the nail on the head>> that`s why so many posters on MTF are annoyed at me, because they perceived that I insulted their favourite players:sad:
...
Actually I don`t consider labelling Canas as `the greatest JourneyMan` any kind of insult, rather it`s a compliment;)
...
How else are we going to label Canas:confused:

Actually not at all. Cañas isn't my favourite player at all, but I know it's hard for you to look outside the top 10. I am going off your M.O and it shows that.

There are people in here who aren't huge Cañas fans let you have it for that call.

Cañas gets the most of his talent and abilities and has had some good results. He is far from a journeyman and 97 percent of the players that I mentiioned as journeymen I happen to like it.

Why do you need to label people anyway, is it cause you are lazy?

Hendu
02-22-2007, 02:49 PM
;)
George I think you hit the nail on the head>> that`s why so many posters on MTF are annoyed at me, because they perceived that I insulted their favourite players:sad:
...
Actually I don`t consider labelling Canas as `the greatest JourneyMan` any kind of insult, rather it`s a compliment;)
...
How else are we going to label Canas:confused:
...
Good middle of the road player, never a contender in slams, had one biggish win at an AMS event, forced to play challengers throughout periods of his career, literally travels everywhere in search of a pay check, gets overly harsh treatment for stupidity a few years ago & drops to ~#500 in the World, wins another MM event nearly 3-years since his last one.... A LABEL like this might seem a tad LONG-WINDED:p ... Instead I call him the GREATEST JourneyMan:cool:

I would call him a very successfull ATP player, who showed to be a top player everytime he was healthy and due to injuries and unlucky situations had gone down a number of times but always came back strong, going back to where he belongs.

If its too long for you, then you can just call him a very successfull ATP player.

former top ten player, got to 14 ATP tournaments finals, defeated top ten players several times, was a steady top 15 everytime he was injury free...

middle of the road player?

this is Cañas, not Di Mauro or Roitman.

what are you talking about?

you make no sense.

Cañas, Johansson, Schalken?

who is next?

Robredo?

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 02:57 PM
Actually not at all. Cañas isn't my favourite player at all, but I know it's hard for you to look outside the top 10. I am going off your M.O and it shows that.

There are people in here who aren't huge Cañas fans let you have it for that call.

Cañas gets the most of his talent and abilities and has had some good results. He is far from a journeyman and 97 percent of the players that I mentiioned as journeymen I happen to like it.

Why do you need to label people anyway, is it cause you are lazy?


:confused:
Why label players...
...
Then what`s the point of the term JourneyMan:confused:
...
Why bother discussing whether Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer is the `greatest`??? [heck that`s a label]..
...
This forum is here to discuss tennis news, reports & opinions etc.. ~ that`s all I`m doing mate;)

Horatio Caine
02-22-2007, 02:59 PM
Fromberg, Skoff, David Sanchez, Vicente, Horna (at a stretch), Vliegen, Chela these guys could be considered journeymen, but not Cañas and not Schalken either.

I wouldn't put Chela in the same list as Fromberg, Sanchez, Vicente et al :lol:

Schalken has done better in the majors than Chela, but apart from that I don't recall anything he has done that Chela hasn't.

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 02:59 PM
I would call him a very successfull ATP player, who showed to be a top player everytime he was healthy and due to injuries and unlucky situations had gone down a number of times but always came back strong, going back to where he belongs.

If its too long for you, then you can just call him a very successfull ATP player.

former top ten player, got to 14 ATP tournaments finals, defeated top ten players several times, was a steady top 15 everytime he was injury free...

middle of the road player?

this is Cañas, not Di Mauro or Roitman.

what are you talking about?

you make no sense.

Cañas, Johansson, Schalken?

who is next?

Robredo?


Good one;) , shall we add Robredo to the list???
...
Sorry it`s more fun to discuss Di Mauro & Roitman:cool:

Action Jackson
02-22-2007, 03:01 PM
:confused:
Why label players...
...
Then what`s the point of the term JourneyMan:confused:
...
Why bother discussing whether Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer is the `greatest`??? [heck that`s a label]..
...
This forum is here to discuss tennis news, reports & opinions etc.. ~ that`s all I`m doing mate;)

Labelling someone a journeyman isn't exactly complimentary, especially when they aren't a journeyman. Voo de Mar made a point about Sanguinetti not being one and that's a fair point.

It's not about the greatest players and does great have negative overtones? You should stick to talking about Laver, Borg, Hewitt, Sampras and Federer those are your strongest points.

Action Jackson
02-22-2007, 03:02 PM
I wouldn't put Chela in the same list as Fromberg, Sanchez, Vicente et al :lol:

Schalken has done better in the majors than Chela, but apart from that I don't recall anything he has done that Chela hasn't.

Chela at a stretch as well and Schalken definitely isn't a journeyman.

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 03:05 PM
Labelling someone a journeyman isn't exactly complimentary, especially when they aren't a journeyman. Voo de Mar made a point about Sanguinetti not being one and that's a fair point.

It's not about the greatest players and does great have negative overtones? You should stick to talking about Laver, Borg, Hewitt, Sampras and Federer those are your strongest points.


I`m not sure whether to take that as a backhand compliment:D , or a backhand insult:devil: ???


Anyway I didn`t believe JourneyMan had negative overtones, unless it`s used in the same breath as Jesus Fed:angel:

Action Jackson
02-22-2007, 03:07 PM
I`m not sure whether to take that as a backhand compliment:D , or a backhand insult:devil: ???

It's obvious you don't watch or follow some of the guys ranked outside the top 20 ( bar Hewitt).

Those are your strong points, when you label Cañas, Schalken or T.Johansson as journeymen then it doesn't look good.

Horatio Caine
02-22-2007, 03:10 PM
It's obvious you don't watch or follow some of the guys ranked outside the top 20 ( bar Hewitt).

Those are your strong points, when you label Cañas, Schalken or T.Johansson as journeymen then it doesn't look good.

But why is Chela a journeyman?? :lol:

Action Jackson
02-22-2007, 03:12 PM
But why is Chela a journeyman?? :lol:

Cause Cañas, Schalken and ToJo are and Chela shouldn't be left out.

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 03:12 PM
It's obvious you don't watch or follow some of the guys ranked outside the top 20 ( bar Hewitt).

Those are your strong points, when you label Cañas, Schalken or T.Johansson as journeymen then it doesn't look good.


:sad:
Oh you`re hurting my pride George:eek:
...
Besides, what you said is not true>>> I follow Srichaphan, HT Lee, Philippoussis, Arthurs [there`s a fair dinkum JourneyMan:cool: ], Moya [joke] & many others ranked outside the Top-#20;)

Action Jackson
02-22-2007, 03:14 PM
:sad:
Oh you`re hurting my pride George:eek:
...
Besides, what you said is not true>>> I follow Srichaphan, HT Lee, Philippoussis, Arthurs [there`s a fair dinkum JourneyMan:cool: ], Moya [joke] & many others ranked outside the Top-#20;)

The Srich was a top player as was the Poo at one stage. Big Wayne Arthurs knew his role and didn't pretend otherwise.

CmonAussie
02-22-2007, 03:24 PM
Cause Cañas, Schalken and ToJo are and Chela shouldn't be left out.

...
As I`ve said many times>> this thread is still simply a thread to discuss `who is the most successful JourneyMan player in ATP history??`;)
...
If the consensus is Wayno Arthurs:cool: ~ then I still come away from this thread a happy man:D

Purple Rainbow
02-22-2007, 03:35 PM
If I get this straight, the definition of a journeyman is a player who hangs around the tour for years, is relatively unnoticed and deprived of major succes. Following that logic, a journeyman is by definition unsuccesful, making this thread rather redundant.

Sjengster
02-22-2007, 03:49 PM
I might have considered Schalken a journeyman at one stage when he had a 4-14 record in the Slams at the end of the 90s, but I'd say his Slam achievements from 02-04 plus his membership of the all-surface, five-continent title club with Agassi, is enough to elevate him from that category.

I'd have to agree that it's the solid 50-100 players who now and again put together a great tournament who constitute journeymen. Christophe Rochus is a good example, last year he made the Rotterdam final, the year before that the Hamburg semis, but usually he takes some routine beatdowns on tour.

MariaV
02-22-2007, 08:22 PM
Cause Cañas, Schalken and ToJo are and Chela shouldn't be left out.

:haha: :haha:

I'd add Verkerk for the Dutch company then for instance. :lol:

Peoples
02-23-2007, 12:04 AM
Canas is not just a journeyman... Canas is a journeyman on steroids! :haha:

Kolya
02-23-2007, 12:46 AM
Gianluca Pozzi.

Hendu
02-23-2007, 03:54 AM
Canas is not just a journeyman... Canas is a journeyman on steroids! :haha:

what you fail to understand is that if Cañas, Johansson and Schalken are journeymen, Massu and Gonzalez are too...

helen phillips
02-23-2007, 01:27 PM
So your definition of a journeyman is as simple as someone who "isn`t very successful":confused:
...
So what do you call people who:
Aren`t great
Never come close to winning slams
Stick around for a long time
Travel the far corners of the World in search of a paycheck
& through sheer persistence manage to win a few MM events
:confused: :confused:

Professional tennis players. Just because you don't crack the top ten or win a slam doesn't mean your a journeyman. Journeyman is a pejorative and insulting term which is innaparopriately applied to every player who isn't a major star. There are a lot of slots in a draw and not everyone can be great. A journeyman can a have a great week here or there (didn't Carratti make the Aussie semis one year) and still be a journeyman but you don't win multiple tour titles (no matter how minor) and maintain a top 40 ranking if your a journeyman. Canas isn't even on the bubble. Paul Goldstein is a successful journeyman in my opinion.

Nathaliia
02-23-2007, 01:46 PM
Goodness. Why do some people make themselves to look like they followed only the top 5 in the world and the rest is unknown and journeymen (except of Davydenko, who can be in top 5 and still be a journeyman).

The definition many people gave, is the only common and well-known, so should I really repeat it? It is a person who is balancing for years between second round of 125K challenger and second round of ATP event, including some random ATP doubles quaterfinals.

Norman, Vik, Dlouhy, Zib, Saretta, Vanek, Berlocq, Starace, Roitman, Di Mauro, Kohlschreiber, blah blah.

Putting a slam winner between that mediocre company makes a total nonsense, and the "For me he is a very good journeymen" excuse is pointless and proves the knowledge either of tennis values or of tennis terms of the person who writes such things. All Cańas, Johansson, Schalken, Spadea and some others are second row players and the discussion would be accurate - which of them is the best. Then we should add Schuettler and some other has-beens. But the term "journeyman" is really considered offensive and getting titles in different parts of the globe has nothing to do with it, as it is a word describing people who will never win any title.

Peoples
02-23-2007, 08:48 PM
Well, "journeyman on steroids" means he is more than just a journeyman.

Alfaxe
02-24-2007, 12:59 AM
The Rochus Bros

CmonAussie
03-12-2007, 06:37 AM
>>>><<<<<
...
#@@#

So Willy Canas proved that is 2-years in the wilderness he`s been watching lots of FED videos & formulating a gameplan to beat the chosen one on his favourite surface!!

Willy def Rogi [7-5 6-2]
...
The legend of the greatest ever journeyman is growing daily<:)

Hendu
03-12-2007, 06:42 AM
The legend of the greatest ever journeyman is growing daily <:)[/B]

>>>>@<<=(/&&%%<<<
...


#@@#

~>so as the legend of the most clueless poster ever. ~>

...
>>>><<<3$%&&/7<<

Clara Bow
03-12-2007, 06:53 AM
What a hateful thread title.

CmonAussie
03-12-2007, 06:59 AM
What a hateful thread title.


:wavey:
I was just having a joke~> didn`t expect you to take it seriously:eek:

Call it a black sense of Aussie humour;)

Anyway I didn`t want to insult anybody so I`ll change it~ OK:confused:

Hendu
03-12-2007, 07:25 AM
:wavey:
I was just having a joke~> didn`t expect you to take it seriously:eek:

Call it a black sense of Aussie humour;)

you certainly are not the only Aussie with that "peculiar" sense of humour.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/07/17/pt_sp_teeshirts_1707_ent-lead__200x207.jpg

CmonAussie
03-12-2007, 07:31 AM
you certainly are not the only Aussie with that "peculiar" sense of humour.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/07/17/pt_sp_teeshirts_1707_ent-lead__200x207.jpg


:wavey: :cool:
That`s pretty funny;)
...
BTW mate, I actually like Canas`s fighting play a lot:worship: ... Canas reminds me of my other favourite~~ Hewitt [only a more muscular clay version]:devil:


Honestly I don`t know how I managed to insult everyone so much by simply calling Willy the Greatest Journeyman ever:eek: .. Was that so bad of me??

...
Of course Canas isn`t quite good enough to be a superstar:angel: , & perhaps not really a jouneyman;) , >> so where does he fit in:confused:
>>> It`s better to be the greatest at something right?!!

Clara Bow
03-12-2007, 07:35 AM
Honestly I don`t know how I managed to insult everyone so much by simply calling Willy the Greatest Journeyman ever .. Was that so bad of me??

Oh come now, don't be coy. ;) You did not "simply" call him just that. It is just that he is often just dismissed here as just a doper (with some saying all of his wins are unfair) - and as one who has studied the cirumstances of his case- I think that is not really fair. And the title that you had briefly fed into that type of quick kneejerk dismissal.

And I do also have to agree with some others who have said that someone who had a win such as his 2002 Toronto win should perhaps not be called just a journeyman. :)

Bibberz
03-12-2007, 07:35 AM
jour·ney·man /ˈdʒɜrnimən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[jur-nee-muhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -men.
1. a person who has served an apprenticeship at a trade or handicraft and is certified to work at it assisting or under another person.
2. any experienced, competent but routine worker or performer.
3. a person hired to do work for another, usually for a day at a time.


jour·ney·man (jûr'nē-mən) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. One who has fully served an apprenticeship in a trade or craft and is a qualified worker in another's employ.
2. An experienced and competent but undistinguished worker.

Action Jackson
03-12-2007, 07:43 AM
Honestly I don`t know how I managed to insult everyone so much by simply calling Willy the Greatest Journeyman ever:eek: .. Was that so bad of me??

...
Of course Canas isn`t quite good enough to be a superstar:angel: , & perhaps not really a jouneyman;) , >> so where does he fit in:confused:
>>> It`s better to be the greatest at something right?!!

Well some people aren't going to like blatant untruths are they?

Peoples
03-12-2007, 07:46 AM
jour·ney·man /ˈdʒɜrnimən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[jur-nee-muhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -men.
2. An experienced and competent but undistinguished worker.

Sounds just like Canas.

CmonAussie
03-12-2007, 07:50 AM
Well some people aren't going to like blatant untruths are they?


Well the definition of Journeyman is wide open to interpretation;)
>> Not everyone sees that as an insult:eek:
>>Being the greatest at something is certainly not an insult:angel:
>>
>>Canas does fit the mould of Journeyman in many ways.. eg. The guy travels to some of the far ends of the Earth in order to win challengers [New Caledonia].. Yes he won one TMS 5-years ago BUT he`s never got beyond the QF stage of a Slam.. & he`s only got that far ONCE:sad: ...If he was really as good as he`s supposed to be he should have done better at the Slams~~ where careers are defined;)

Action Jackson
03-12-2007, 07:57 AM
>>Canas does fit the mould of Journeyman in many ways.. eg. The guy travels to some of the far ends of the Earth in order to win challengers [New Caledonia].. Yes he won one TMS 5-years ago BUT he`s never got beyond the QF stage of a Slam.. & he`s only got that far ONCE:sad: ...If he was really as good as he`s supposed to be he should have done better at the Slams~~ where careers are defined;)

Anyone outside the top 10 to you is a journeyman. Brad Gilbert had a shit Slam record and won 20 something titles and got to #3 in the world, so was he a journeyman?

Bibberz
03-12-2007, 07:58 AM
Well the definition of Journeyman is wide open to interpretation;)
>> Not everyone sees that as an insult:eek:
>>Being the greatest at something is certainly not an insult:angel:
>>
>>Canas does fit the mould of Journeyman in many ways.. eg. The guy travels to some of the far ends of the Earth in order to win challengers [New Caledonia].. Yes he won one TMS 5-years ago BUT he`s never got beyond the QF stage of a Slam.. & he`s only got that far ONCE:sad: ...If he was really as good as he`s supposed to be he should have done better at the Slams~~ where careers are defined;)

Slams aren't everything when you're evaluating whether someone's a journeyman. For example, Blake has neither advanced past the QF of a GS nor captured a Masters title.

Hendu
03-12-2007, 08:04 AM
Canas does fit the mould of Journeyman in many ways.. eg. The guy travels to some of the far ends of the Earth in order to win challengers [New Caledonia]..

Played challengers as any other player who comes back from injuries... Cañas came back from serious injuries twice and once again from a suspension.

Yes he won one TMS 5-years ago BUT he`s never got beyond the QF stage of a Slam.. & he`s only got that far ONCE:sad: ...If he was really as good as he`s supposed to be he should have done better at the Slams~~ where careers are defined;)

he got to quarters twice.

And won 7 titles and reached other 7 finals, got to the top ten and was a steady top 15 whenever he was healthy.

And always got back to the top... and you still decide to ignore all these.

and call Cañas, Thomas Johansson and Schalken journeymen. :rolleyes:

CmonAussie
03-12-2007, 08:08 AM
Anyone outside the top 10 to you is a journeyman. Brad Gilbert had a shit Slam record and won 20 something titles and got to #3 in the world, so was he a journeyman?


:confused:
That`s a difficult one George:devil:
...
Yeah I have to admit Brad certainly looked like a suped up journeyman:eek: ... Only thing is he made such an art of playing ugly that he actually played well enough to eek out an impressive career:worship:

Of course some of Gilbert`s tourney wins were comparable to today`s challengers in terms of quality:p

Check it out::eek:
Gilbert`s titles~~

1982--Taipei; 1984--Columbus, Taipei; 1985--Cleveland, Livingston, Tel Aviv; 1986--Livingston, Memphis, Tel Aviv, Vienna; 1987--Scottsdale; 1988--Tel Aviv; 1989--Cincinnati, Livingston, Memphis, San Francisco, Stratton Mountain; 1990--Brisbane, Orlando, Rotterdam


Red for MM title that was so weak it should have been a challenger!

Action Jackson
03-12-2007, 08:11 AM
and call Cañas, Thomas Johansson and Schalken journeymen. :rolleyes:

Schalken has won tournaments on all surfaces and Cañas has made finals on all surfaces, but hey cause they aren't glamorous then they are journeymen.

CmonAussie
03-12-2007, 08:11 AM
Played challengers as any other player who comes back from injuries... Cañas came back from serious injuries twice and once again from a suspension.



he got to quarters twice.

And won 7 titles and reached other 7 finals, got to the top ten and was a steady top 15 whenever he was healthy.

And always got back to the top... and you still decide to ignore all these.

and call Cañas, Thomas Johansson and Schalken journeymen. :rolleyes:


...
Sorry my bad:sad: ~ i didn`t realise Canas had made Slam QF twice;)

>>>
As for ToJo & Schalken~~ i added those guys in there so Canas wouldn`t feel lonely at the top of the list:cool:

But I`m not the only one to refer to ToJo as a journeyman... several tennis commentators have used the same term:eek:

Chris Seahorse
03-12-2007, 09:03 AM
The whole idea of being the "most successful" journeyman is absurb anyway. If one appreciates what the word means. It means someone who is in between successwise. Neither at the top or at the bottom. Average. How can you be the "most successful" average player. As soon as you achieve such a statis you stop being a journeyman. There really is no answer to the question of who is the best journeyman. It is like asking who is the tallest midget.

Peoples
03-12-2007, 12:09 PM
The whole idea of being the "most successful" journeyman is absurb anyway. If one appreciates what the word means. It means someone who is in between successwise. Neither at the top or at the bottom. Average. How can you be the "most successful" average player. As soon as you achieve such a statis you stop being a journeyman. There really is no answer to the question of who is the best journeyman. It is like asking who is the tallest midget.

Whatever way you look at it, Canas fits pretty well. More than a journeyman but more like a journeyman on steroids.

Chris Seahorse
03-12-2007, 01:23 PM
Whatever way you look at it, Canas fits pretty well. More than a journeyman but more like a journeyman on steroids.

Errrr...........I wouldn't have expected you to get the drift of what I way saying. Think whatever you wish. But speaking as another Gonzalez supporter I must admit I do find you a bit embarressing.

Action Jackson
10-23-2007, 01:38 PM
Federer the best ever journeyman.

CmonAussie
10-23-2007, 02:16 PM
Federer the best ever journeyman.


no point to re-open this thread:p
some dickhead must have started this thread~~ lets catch the imposter:devil: