I am afraid Roger can't beat Rafa right now [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

I am afraid Roger can't beat Rafa right now

lshdure
11-14-2006, 11:28 PM
I am a Federer's fan. But while watching Federer against Andy and Rafa against Blake, i thought that Rafa was actually doing better than before. His problem was confidence in the cirtical moment. Federer improved his BH a lot in this season, but his volley seems to be awkward right now. Those who beat Nadal in this season in HC has common thing: hitting flat ball and good net game.

See Pim pim, Berdman, Youzhny, Blake. They hit the ball very flat from both side - FH and BH. Federer still hit the ball with top spin rather than pure flat ball on both side.
Besides, apart from Youzhny, three other guys wonderfully handled ralley with Nadal finishing the point in the net. This made Nadal unsettled sticking far behind the baseline. Federer can not do this type of game confidently right now.

This means that baseline game will decide this match. That's why i think Rafa has edge even in this surface right now if he handle confidence problem.

This is just my presupposition. I am an medium level of amateur tennis. I would like to know other guy's opinion. What do you think? If Roger will win, please let me know winning-algebra.

BlakeorHenman
11-14-2006, 11:58 PM
Oh! If I could figure out hot to type whatever those damn tiny numbers are called, you'd be getting the most clever, sarcastic, irreverent remark ever right now! Something over something squared times 3 = Fed wins or something. Shit, that doesn't even come close to funny.

spencercarlos
11-15-2006, 12:07 AM
I am a Federer's fan. But while watching Federer against Andy and Rafa against Blake, i thought that Rafa was actually doing better than before. His problem was confidence in the cirtical moment. Federer improved his BH a lot in this season, but his volley seems to be awkward right now. Those who beat Nadal in this season in HC has common thing: hitting flat ball and good net game.

See Pim pim, Berdman, Youzhny, Blake. They hit the ball very flat from both side - FH and BH. Federer still hit the ball with top spin rather than pure flat ball on both side.
Besides, apart from Youzhny, three other guys wonderfully handled ralley with Nadal finishing the point in the net. This made Nadal unsettled sticking far behind the baseline. Federer can not do this type of game confidently right now.

This means that baseline game will decide this match. That's why i think Rafa has edge even in this surface right now if he handle confidence problem.

This is just my presupposition. I am an medium level of amateur tennis. I would like to know other guy's opinion. What do you think? If Roger will win, please let me know winning-algebra.
Oh i thought i had seen Federer coming to the net and having some winning volleys against Nadal at Wimbledon, even in Rome, Montecarlo.
Oh well knowing that he can´t beat Rafa right now its time cry :sad:

Fedex
11-15-2006, 12:16 AM
I am a Federer's fan. But while watching Federer against Andy and Rafa against Blake, i thought that Rafa was actually doing better than before. His problem was confidence in the cirtical moment. Federer improved his BH a lot in this season, but his volley seems to be awkward right now. Those who beat Nadal in this season in HC has common thing: hitting flat ball and good net game.

See Pim pim, Berdman, Youzhny, Blake. They hit the ball very flat from both side - FH and BH. Federer still hit the ball with top spin rather than pure flat ball on both side.
Besides, apart from Youzhny, three other guys wonderfully handled ralley with Nadal finishing the point in the net. This made Nadal unsettled sticking far behind the baseline. Federer can not do this type of game confidently right now.

This means that baseline game will decide this match. That's why i think Rafa has edge even in this surface right now if he handle confidence problem.

This is just my presupposition. I am an medium level of amateur tennis. I would like to know other guy's opinion. What do you think? If Roger will win, please let me know winning-algebra.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Sure those guys(Berdych,Blake,etc.) hit the ball flatter than Federer, and Federer does hit with alot more topspin than any of them, but volleys? You're telling me that they are better volleyers than Federer? Federer is far and away the best volleyer out of that group, and is one of the best on tour. Federer doesn't come to net nearly as much as he used to, but that's due to his dominant baseline game. No one can compete with him from the back of the court, so why bother coming in all the time?
I do think Federer will have to attack Nadal alot more than other players by coming to the net, but this surface heavily favors Federer anyway, so he should have some leeway on this surface.

cmurray
11-15-2006, 12:23 AM
I am a Federer's fan. But while watching Federer against Andy and Rafa against Blake, i thought that Rafa was actually doing better than before. His problem was confidence in the cirtical moment. Federer improved his BH a lot in this season, but his volley seems to be awkward right now. Those who beat Nadal in this season in HC has common thing: hitting flat ball and good net game.

See Pim pim, Berdman, Youzhny, Blake. They hit the ball very flat from both side - FH and BH. Federer still hit the ball with top spin rather than pure flat ball on both side.
Besides, apart from Youzhny, three other guys wonderfully handled ralley with Nadal finishing the point in the net. This made Nadal unsettled sticking far behind the baseline. Federer can not do this type of game confidently right now.

This means that baseline game will decide this match. That's why i think Rafa has edge even in this surface right now if he handle confidence problem.

This is just my presupposition. I am an medium level of amateur tennis. I would like to know other guy's opinion. What do you think? If Roger will win, please let me know winning-algebra.


Rafa is always going to be a bad match-up for Roger. Do i think Roger CAN beat Raf? Yes, of course. But I don't think it's a forgone conclusion the way others here do.

DDrago2
11-15-2006, 12:25 AM
Nadal has to beat Davydenko first

adee-gee
11-15-2006, 12:26 AM
If Roger will win, please let me know winning-algebra.
6x-2 = RG Champ :)

NYCtennisfan
11-15-2006, 12:27 AM
Didn't you post something exactly like this a few months ago?

Sofyaxo
11-15-2006, 12:27 AM
Nadal also lost an amazing lead against Blake in the second set...

R.Federer
11-15-2006, 12:42 AM
Someone will come here soon enough and post "can't beat him NOW? Like, could he ever?".

JustmeUK
11-15-2006, 12:47 AM
Rafa is always going to be a bad match-up for Roger. Do i think Roger CAN beat Raf? Yes, of course. But I don't think it's a forgone conclusion the way others here do.

care to explain why? because really I don't see it. unless u're talking on clay where Rafa would match up well against anyone. he's the best player on clay by a stretch. but take out clay and their h2h is 2-2. hardly a bad matchup for Roger. and I'd argue that Roger would have a better h2h against Rafa if they met more often on anything but clay.. but then again we know Rafa's been struggling to justify his seeding in events other than clay this year...

lshdure
11-15-2006, 01:06 AM
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Sure those guys(Berdych,Blake,etc.) hit the ball flatter than Federer, and Federer does hit with alot more topspin than any of them, but volleys? You're telling me that they are better volleyers than Federer? Federer is far and away the best volleyer out of that group, and is one of the best on tour. Federer doesn't come to net nearly as much as he used to, but that's due to his dominant baseline game. No one can compete with him from the back of the court, so why bother coming in all the time?
I do think Federer will have to attack Nadal alot more than other players by coming to the net, but this surface heavily favors Federer anyway, so he should have some leeway on this surface.

Prove it, not based on your blinded adoration but based on statistics. As far as volley is concerned, i don't agree with you. Even today, Andy's volley was much better than Federer. Am i not right?

LCeh
11-15-2006, 01:07 AM
Prove it, not based on your blinded adoration but based on statistics. As far as volley is concerned, i don't agree with you. Even today, Andy's volley was much better than Federer. Am i not right?

:eek: :eek: :bolt:

cmurray
11-15-2006, 01:12 AM
care to explain why? because really I don't see it. unless u're talking on clay where Rafa would match up well against anyone. he's the best player on clay by a stretch. but take out clay and their h2h is 2-2. hardly a bad matchup for Roger. and I'd argue that Roger would have a better h2h against Rafa if they met more often on anything but clay.. but then again we know Rafa's been struggling to justify his seeding in events other than clay this year...

I didn't say that Rafa is going to beat Roger every time, what I said is that it is a bad match-up. You want an explanation? Rafa's lefty forehand kicks right up about shoulder height on Federer;s backhand side forcing more errors than Federer is used to making. No matter the surface. Is Rafito more likely to win on clay than any other surface? Of course, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a bad matchup for Roger.

doublebackhand
11-15-2006, 02:06 AM
we will find out when nadal gets to play federer again, wont we?

JustmeUK
11-15-2006, 02:31 AM
I didn't say that Rafa is going to beat Roger every time, what I said is that it is a bad match-up. You want an explanation? Rafa's lefty forehand kicks right up about shoulder height on Federer;s backhand side forcing more errors than Federer is used to making. No matter the surface. Is Rafito more likely to win on clay than any other surface? Of course, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a bad matchup for Roger.

that's it? that one thing makes it a bad match up for roger? seriously? how about that rafa's serve lacks potency on faster courts and therefore he's going to struggle to hold his serve more. how about the fact that he can be rushed into making mistakes if u have the pace to hit through him or take the ball on the rise? or that when his plan a fails he doesn't have a plan b? next year will be very interesting. on clay he will continue to dominate but on other surfaces - let's see if the tour has him figured out now.

not to nitpick or anything but your argument is about one dimensional as rafa's game is. the way I see it, if rafa doesn't find something more in terms of shot making he's going to go the way of the dodo (as Hewitt has). defensive counterpunchers do not dominate this game for extended periods. look at hewitt/courier/chang and whilst rafa may be one of the best counter punchers in the game ever, he needs to find something more which to his credit he is trying to do. however the question remains as to whether he can do so (and my gut feeling is he can't).

Fedex
11-15-2006, 02:39 AM
Prove it, not based on your blinded adoration but based on statistics. As far as volley is concerned, i don't agree with you. Even today, Andy's volley was much better than Federer. Am i not right?
Prove it? Well I guess you could never actually prove anything, when it comes to who has the better stroke. Its all a matter of opinion. But if you asked most people on this board, I'm sure they would agree with me that Federer is a better volleyer than Roddick. :lol:

jole
11-15-2006, 02:46 AM
I am a Federer's fan. But while watching Federer against Andy and Rafa against Blake, i thought that Rafa was actually doing better than before. His problem was confidence in the cirtical moment. Federer improved his BH a lot in this season, but his volley seems to be awkward right now. Those who beat Nadal in this season in HC has common thing: hitting flat ball and good net game.

See Pim pim, Berdman, Youzhny, Blake. They hit the ball very flat from both side - FH and BH. Federer still hit the ball with top spin rather than pure flat ball on both side.
Besides, apart from Youzhny, three other guys wonderfully handled ralley with Nadal finishing the point in the net. This made Nadal unsettled sticking far behind the baseline. Federer can not do this type of game confidently right now.

This means that baseline game will decide this match. That's why i think Rafa has edge even in this surface right now if he handle confidence problem.

This is just my presupposition. I am an medium level of amateur tennis. I would like to know other guy's opinion. What do you think? If Roger will win, please let me know winning-algebra.

It's not like Roger isn't capable of flattening out his backhand. Will be interesting if he starts to do it when the time calls.

kronus12
11-15-2006, 02:47 AM
theirs no question that roger is a better volleyer then roddick did you ever see any of his matches at wimbledon?
Isudue you say you're a fed fan but as soon as someone on the board contradicts you blow up about it are you sure your a fed fan?
My opinion is that fed has a good chance beating Nadal at the moment if they played now, on clay i would have to give it to Nadal but next year i don't think he will dominate the clay season like he has in the last two season.

I think it will be between fed roddick and safin to win the AO next year.
Nadal form suggest to me he's not good enough to win it.

Caerula Sanguis
11-15-2006, 04:22 AM
I don't see they will play each other anytime soon. If not this tournament, we might have to wait until clay season

jazar
11-15-2006, 06:58 AM
at the moment i don't think they will play as davydenko and blake will qualify.
but i do think if federer and nadal played federer would win. fair enough he hasnt been his usual phenomenal best so far but he has played pretty well when he has needed to. he is just getting a foothold in the tournament. i think that tomorrow against ljubicic he will step it up and continue that way fro the rest of the tournament.
nadal has little confidence at the moment and is on a poor run of form on hard courts and indoor courts. federer is the master of these courts and has started to find the right formula to consistently beat nadal. if they played, it might be tight, but federer would prevail.

The Pro
11-15-2006, 12:38 PM
at the moment i don't think they will play as davydenko and blake will qualify.


Wouldn't say that just yet. Whoever wins this match they're playing will have 2 wins, the other just 1, so it will still depend on the final matches.

oz_boz
11-15-2006, 12:52 PM
that's it? that one thing makes it a bad match up for roger? seriously? how about that rafa's serve lacks potency on faster courts and therefore he's going to struggle to hold his serve more. how about the fact that he can be rushed into making mistakes if u have the pace to hit through him or take the ball on the rise? or that when his plan a fails he doesn't have a plan b? next year will be very interesting. on clay he will continue to dominate but on other surfaces - let's see if the tour has him figured out now.

I think the 2-2 h2h on faster courts makes a clear case here. Nadal is a bad matchup for Roger who hasn't been able to consistently take advantage in the way you suggest. Besides, I don't think his serve is as bad as some say. It is still hard to punish because of the high 1st serve % and the lefty angle.


not to nitpick or anything but your argument is about one dimensional as rafa's game is. the way I see it, if rafa doesn't find something more in terms of shot making he's going to go the way of the dodo (as Hewitt has). defensive counterpunchers do not dominate this game for extended periods. look at hewitt/courier/chang and whilst rafa may be one of the best counter punchers in the game ever, he needs to find something more which to his credit he is trying to do. however the question remains as to whether he can do so (and my gut feeling is he can't).

If you watch his matches against Fed, he is not playing only counterpuncher game. He outhits Roger from the baseline, something that Hewitt/Chang could never do. Rafa has far more crunch than both of them.

I'm not saying that Nadal will dominate, but he is not lacking in the firepower department like Hewitt and Chang. He will need to adopt an attacking style for more consistent success on fast courts, but let's wait and see if your gut feeling is right.

lshdure
11-15-2006, 05:57 PM
I don't see they will play each other anytime soon. If not this tournament, we might have to wait until clay season

Now, we can anticipate Fed. vs. Nadal SF. Nadal's form today was supurb and Davy is normal. If Davy is in form as TMF guys thinks, he should have won against Blake. This means that nadal will win against Davy. I am still worrid about bed match-up against Nadal. Paradoxically, from my opinion, this is almost best chance for Federer to dispatch Nadal. If he do that, he will be liberated from Nadal psyche. If he lose here, Federer will unwillingly give prescription and pill for healing his nemesis' confidence-disease. It will be really big match, and i hope it happens.

A a Federer fan, i was scared of Federer's encountering with Nadal, because i didn't like Nadal's court manner and Federer's pain was mine. But since Nadal's slump, Federer's game became conservative and volley game was terrible compared to his ability. He became less concentrated in the net. Volley became his accessery. It aroused controvery of "is-he-truly-the-best-ever" controvery. Even John Mac, who for the time time acknowledge Fed's possibility of "GOAT," is now suspicious of Federer's GOAT.

He needs serious and more painful challenge in order to be GOAT. Now, with this form, i unwillingly bet to Nadal if they meet SF.

jasmin
11-15-2006, 06:27 PM
we will find out when nadal gets to play federer again, wont we?

We will see. I think is was more mental for Roger but I think he's over that hump especially with Nadal not playing well since Wimby.

cmurray
11-15-2006, 06:40 PM
that's it? that one thing makes it a bad match up for roger? seriously? how about that rafa's serve lacks potency on faster courts and therefore he's going to struggle to hold his serve more. how about the fact that he can be rushed into making mistakes if u have the pace to hit through him or take the ball on the rise? or that when his plan a fails he doesn't have a plan b? next year will be very interesting. on clay he will continue to dominate but on other surfaces - let's see if the tour has him figured out now.

not to nitpick or anything but your argument is about one dimensional as rafa's game is. the way I see it, if rafa doesn't find something more in terms of shot making he's going to go the way of the dodo (as Hewitt has). defensive counterpunchers do not dominate this game for extended periods. look at hewitt/courier/chang and whilst rafa may be one of the best counter punchers in the game ever, he needs to find something more which to his credit he is trying to do. however the question remains as to whether he can do so (and my gut feeling is he can't).



Yep. That's it. You can call it one-dimensional all you want. Doesn't change the facts. Still don't believe it? Look at Roger's record against Rafa. If Rafa were really as terrible as you claim, how do you explain how he beats Roger all the time? On surfaces other than clay?

And Rafa is a pretty good shot maker, actually. He has good feel at the net (especially for a "baseliner"), he plays fantastic angles and he has the ability (though we haven't seen much of it recently) to flatten out his forehand at just the right moment. His serve is a bit lacking, I'll admit. He doesn't win enough free points off it, but he can work on that the way Andre learned to in his latter years.

spencercarlos
11-15-2006, 06:43 PM
I am still worrid about bed match-up against Nadal. Paradoxically, from my opinion, this is almost best chance for Federer to dispatch Nadal. If he do that, he will be liberated from Nadal psyche. If he lose here, Federer will unwillingly give prescription and pill for healing his nemesis' confidence-disease.
You are a F.cking retard, the thread title says about how Federer´s match up with Nadal could be a struggle and almost a sure defeat, and now you say this is the best chance to dispatch Nadal? :cuckoo: Seems your head is going to :timebomb:

Anyway a newsflash for you.. Federer´s best chance of beating Nadal came at Wimbledon this year, and in case you forgot there was a 6-0 set :worship: .
:wavey:

cmurray
11-15-2006, 06:57 PM
You are a F.cking retard, the thread title says about how Federer´s match up with Nadal could be a struggle and almost a sure defeat, and now you say this is the best chance to dispatch Nadal? :cuckoo: Seems your head is going to :timebomb:

Anyway a newsflash for you.. Federer´s best chance of beating Nadal came at Wimbledon this year, and in case you forgot there was a 6-0 set :worship: .
:wavey:

Ah, but there was also a lost set and a tiebreak set. Just in case you forgot. :p

Kip
11-15-2006, 06:58 PM
Things like this are part of the reason why some
are destined to do great things in sports and others
are destined to just sit in a chair and watch.

As a former athlete myself, the one thing
I hated more than anything is a defeatus
attitude. regardless, of how your game
matches up to someone else's, you never
go into any possible match-up with this
whimpy attitude. And if you are nervous
and or scared you bluff it and yourself into
just going at it full speed ahead.

I have very much grown to like federer because
he is a player who does relish a challenge and
trying to solve the problems those challenges
present.

Dancing Hero
11-15-2006, 07:26 PM
Roger is gonna beat Rafa, imo, if they get to meet in Shanghai, still doubtful at the moment. I think Fed is gonna turn the rivalry around and start to win more often than not, at least for a while. A player can often have a run of success against an opponent and then one match changes the balance of things and the other player has a good run. Fed turned the corner with the Wimbledon win in my view and if they get to meet in the TMC, would be the favourite. Of course I could be way wrong!:)

Eden
11-15-2006, 09:39 PM
But since Nadal's slump, Federer's game became conservative and volley game was terrible compared to his ability. He became less concentrated in the net. Volley became his accessery. It aroused controvery of "is-he-truly-the-best-ever" controvery.

Excuse me, what has Rafas hardcourtseason to do with Roger? :confused:


He needs serious and more painful challenge in order to be GOAT. Now, with this form, i unwillingly bet to Nadal if they meet SF.

Roger won the tournaments of Toronto, US Open,Tokyo, Madrid and Basel since the so-called slump of Nadal which you mentioned. On his way to his titles he was able to beat players like Blake, Roddick, Gonzalez, Nalbandian.

Who can give Roger serious and painful challenge in your opinion? I think Nadal, Roddick, Blake and Nalbandian are on top of the players ability beside Roger. Do you really think that people would respect Rogers achievements even more when he would be challenged by players like Ancic, Djokovic and Gasquet?

Everyone is free to favour a player, but somehow I get the impression that you are taking Rogers 3 sets matches at the TMC against Roddick and Nalbandian to serious whilst comparing to Nadals current matches in Shanghai. He lost to Blake in 2 straight sets, whilst beating Robredo in 2.

spencercarlos
11-15-2006, 09:48 PM
Ah, but there was also a lost set and a tiebreak set. Just in case you forgot. :p
Yeah who can forget Nadal playing a perfect set, in fact better than perfect because getting 20 winners to just 4 errors in a set and just winning it 7-6 ut says a lot :p

JustmeUK
11-15-2006, 10:07 PM
Yep. That's it. You can call it one-dimensional all you want. Doesn't change the facts. Still don't believe it? Look at Roger's record against Rafa. If Rafa were really as terrible as you claim, how do you explain how he beats Roger all the time? On surfaces other than clay?

And Rafa is a pretty good shot maker, actually. He has good feel at the net (especially for a "baseliner"), he plays fantastic angles and he has the ability (though we haven't seen much of it recently) to flatten out his forehand at just the right moment. His serve is a bit lacking, I'll admit. He doesn't win enough free points off it, but he can work on that the way Andre learned to in his latter years.

beats roger all the time on surfaces other than clay? and which alternate dimensional reality are u from? they are 2-2 :smash: on top of which one of the rafa wins was against a federer who was ill. rafa is an okay shotmaker. if he was a good shotmaker he wouldn't have been blown away by berdych/blake this year. u wanna see a good shotmaker? look at federer against blake or berdych - there is a battle to see who controls points.

as for learning to do what andre has done? I am not convinced. first of all andre grew up on hardcourts where he learnt to hit a much flatter shot. second of all, when u look at history there are very very few counter punchers who actually modified their game enough to stay at the top of the game. agassi is one. connors is the only other I can think off and he was in an era in which everyone had to be a bit of a grafter. I really don't see nadal as being another agassi but only time will tell on that one.

what I do find irritating is nadal supporters who insist that nadal has federer's number on every surface (instead of acknowledging that his advantage is only on clay). seriously, if rafa could live up to his seeding more often federer would whip him more often on the hard courts and the supposed advantage that nadal has would be revealed for what it is - the pipe smoking induced fantasies of a group of non objective (mostly female) fanatics who need a cold shower.

let me repeat the score between roger and rafa on courts other than clay for your benefit - 2-2!

JustmeUK
11-15-2006, 10:17 PM
I think the 2-2 h2h on faster courts makes a clear case here. Nadal is a bad matchup for Roger who hasn't been able to consistently take advantage in the way you suggest. Besides, I don't think his serve is as bad as some say. It is still hard to punish because of the high 1st serve % and the lefty angle.




If you watch his matches against Fed, he is not playing only counterpuncher game. He outhits Roger from the baseline, something that Hewitt/Chang could never do. Rafa has far more crunch than both of them.

I'm not saying that Nadal will dominate, but he is not lacking in the firepower department like Hewitt and Chang. He will need to adopt an attacking style for more consistent success on fast courts, but let's wait and see if your gut feeling is right.

okay let's clear one thing up first of all. the first loss roger had to rafa was when he was ill. if u discount that one then he has a 2-1 advantage over rafa (taking out the clay court matches) and in retrospect maybe he should have given rafa a w/o in that first encounter for I suspect he never knew the edge he was giving rafa in terms on mental confidence.

of the next two encounters on hard - rafa had roger on the ropes in the miami final and then proceeded to run out of steam though it must be said roger was nowhere near his best in the first two sets (some of it due to nadal's stunning fhs for sure) but he did find a way to beat Nadal. the next encounter in dubai saw a wipe out of nadal in the first set 6-2. for some inexplicable reason, (okay Nadal raised his game :D but roger's game took a swan dive the like of which I have rarely seen) and lost the next two sets.

let's not bother dissecting the wimbledon final and agree that rafa was outplayed when it mattered.

the bottom line is roger's game is more than a match for nadal. does rafa outhit fed from the baseline? sure he does. do other players do that too? sure they can. can rafa et al do it for 2/3 sets in a row and wipe Fed out everytime? u cannot be serious. what is clear is that the spillover from rafa's beating fed 4-0 on clay affects how people perceive this matchup. the heavy topspun balls to fed's bh is most effective on clay where just about everyone does not have the weight of shot to hit through rafa. on hardcourt this is quite different and berdych and blake have shown that u can hit it early and do serious damage to rafa after which rafa appears to have no back up plan. let me reiterate, it is at best an even match up till now (if u don't discount how fed was ill in their first match) and given how the tour has appeared to work out how to beat nadal on hardcourt, do u seriously think the world no 1 has not learnt from this? at this point in time, rafa is struggling to justify his seeding as the world no 2 on anything bar clay.

Sunset of Age
11-15-2006, 10:23 PM
With a little luck we'll be able to see who-has-whose-number in just three days time... ;)

As for the Seoul expo, I can't take that encounter very seriously - it's obviously a money-induced encounter, and I wouldn't be too surprised if the two of them have already negotiated who's to win. :devil:

Fedever
11-16-2006, 01:51 AM
Prove it, not based on your blinded adoration but based on statistics. As far as volley is concerned, i don't agree with you. Even today, Andy's volley was much better than Federer. Am i not right?

Andy's volley better than Federer's? What are u smoking???? Thats ridiculous!!:lol: :lol: :lol: I am sorry I don't mean to be insulting :wavey: but I cannot believe that ANYONE thinks this. :confused: ;)

Fedever
11-16-2006, 02:40 AM
okay let's clear one thing up first of all. the first loss roger had to rafa was when he was ill. if u discount that one then he has a 2-1 advantage over rafa (taking out the clay court matches) and in retrospect maybe he should have given rafa a w/o in that first encounter for I suspect he never knew the edge he was giving rafa in terms on mental confidence.

of the next two encounters on hard - rafa had roger on the ropes in the miami final and then proceeded to run out of steam though it must be said roger was nowhere near his best in the first two sets (some of it due to nadal's stunning fhs for sure) but he did find a way to beat Nadal. the next encounter in dubai saw a wipe out of nadal in the first set 6-2. for some inexplicable reason, (okay Nadal raised his game :D but roger's game took a swan dive the like of which I have rarely seen) and lost the next two sets.

let's not bother dissecting the wimbledon final and agree that rafa was outplayed when it mattered.

the bottom line is roger's game is more than a match for nadal. does rafa outhit fed from the baseline? sure he does. do other players do that too? sure they can. can rafa et al do it for 2/3 sets in a row and wipe Fed out everytime? u cannot be serious. what is clear is that the spillover from rafa's beating fed 4-0 on clay affects how people perceive this matchup. the heavy topspun balls to fed's bh is most effective on clay where just about everyone does not have the weight of shot to hit through rafa. on hardcourt this is quite different and berdych and blake have shown that u can hit it early and do serious damage to rafa after which rafa appears to have no back up plan. let me reiterate, it is at best an even match up till now (if u don't discount how fed was ill in their first match) and given how the tour has appeared to work out how to beat nadal on hardcourt, do u seriously think the world no 1 has not learnt from this? at this point in time, rafa is struggling to justify his seeding as the world no 2 on anything bar clay.

I do agree with most of what you have said here but one thing that you do not mention and that bothers me is the mental component. I do believe that Nadal has gotten into Federers head a bit. I will probably get crucified for saying that I think Roger could have won the FO (yes, even though it was clay) if not for the mental factor at play. I also think the pressure of the history that he was about to make got to him too. He is mentally tough, but he is also human. I was so frustrated watching that match because he definitely did not play at nearly his best and you could tell that alot of it was mental.

I also think (and will probably get crucified for this statement too) that Roger would not have dropped a set in the Wimbledon final if not for this same reason. Even though I know that Nadal did pick up his game in the set he won, I still believe that Roger's game dropped because Nadal had gotten under his skin and in his head.
That could still be a factor in their next meeting, but since Nadal has not been doing that well of late maybe that will disappear. I really hope so.

oz_boz
11-16-2006, 09:47 AM
okay let's clear one thing up first of all. the first loss roger had to rafa was when he was ill. if u discount that one then he has a 2-1 advantage over rafa (taking out the clay court matches) and in retrospect maybe he should have given rafa a w/o in that first encounter for I suspect he never knew the edge he was giving rafa in terms on mental confidence.

of the next two encounters on hard - rafa had roger on the ropes in the miami final and then proceeded to run out of steam though it must be said roger was nowhere near his best in the first two sets (some of it due to nadal's stunning fhs for sure) but he did find a way to beat Nadal. the next encounter in dubai saw a wipe out of nadal in the first set 6-2. for some inexplicable reason, (okay Nadal raised his game :D but roger's game took a swan dive the like of which I have rarely seen) and lost the next two sets.

let's not bother dissecting the wimbledon final and agree that rafa was outplayed when it mattered.

the bottom line is roger's game is more than a match for nadal. does rafa outhit fed from the baseline? sure he does. do other players do that too? sure they can. can rafa et al do it for 2/3 sets in a row and wipe Fed out everytime? u cannot be serious. what is clear is that the spillover from rafa's beating fed 4-0 on clay affects how people perceive this matchup. the heavy topspun balls to fed's bh is most effective on clay where just about everyone does not have the weight of shot to hit through rafa. on hardcourt this is quite different and berdych and blake have shown that u can hit it early and do serious damage to rafa after which rafa appears to have no back up plan. let me reiterate, it is at best an even match up till now (if u don't discount how fed was ill in their first match) and given how the tour has appeared to work out how to beat nadal on hardcourt, do u seriously think the world no 1 has not learnt from this? at this point in time, rafa is struggling to justify his seeding as the world no 2 on anything bar clay.

Nice breakdown of their encounters, but I just don't buy that Roger played bad for some strange reason other than Rafa making times difficult for him. (And even if the first loss could have been avoided by a w/o, it was played, so it is part of their history, like it or not.)The "spillover" from the clay record is not only affecting people watching, it is possibly affecting Fed too. I should have added that partly the outcome of the h2h could be due to this "Rafa is in his head" but that is also part of the game.

Yes, Fed-Nadal can probably be called an even matchup on hc. But that must be considered "bad" for Fed in the light of his extreme advantage over very other player on the surface. And no matter how Berdman and Blake play Rafa, I don't think Fed can do the same. But with a bit of luck we will see in a few days. :)

JustmeUK
11-16-2006, 09:59 AM
I do agree with most of what you have said here but one thing that you do not mention and that bothers me is the mental component. I do believe that Nadal has gotten into Federers head a bit. I will probably get crucified for saying that I think Roger could have won the FO (yes, even though it was clay) if not for the mental factor at play. I also think the pressure of the history that he was about to make got to him too. He is mentally tough, but he is also human. I was so frustrated watching that match because he definitely did not play at nearly his best and you could tell that alot of it was mental.

I also think (and will probably get crucified for this statement too) that Roger would not have dropped a set in the Wimbledon final if not for this same reason. Even though I know that Nadal did pick up his game in the set he won, I still believe that Roger's game dropped because Nadal had gotten under his skin and in his head.
That could still be a factor in their next meeting, but since Nadal has not been doing that well of late maybe that will disappear. I really hope so.

maybe.. I am not so convinced. on clay that may well be a factor. they have only played one game since the clay court season and that was the wimby final. the set nadal won at wimbledon was in a tiebreak with both of them playing wonderful tennis.

as has been mentioned Nadal won that set of 20 winners and 3 UEs. Roger had 14 winners and 9 UEs. the thing is Nadal raised his game to a high that Roger just about matched and as I've stated before few people can live at those rarefied levels for 1 set let alone 2/3 needed to win.

we'll see.. we need more Roger-Rafa matches (if only so I can see the smirk wiped off Nadal fans' faces) but I really don't fear for Roger against anyone (aside from Nadal on clay) as he simply plays better for longer than anyone else and he knows it too.

JustmeUK
11-18-2006, 02:59 PM
With a little luck we'll be able to see who-has-whose-number in just three days time... ;)

As for the Seoul expo, I can't take that encounter very seriously - it's obviously a money-induced encounter, and I wouldn't be too surprised if the two of them have already negotiated who's to win. :devil:

Indeed we just saw who has whose number :) And it is sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet :devil:

GlennMirnyi
11-18-2006, 03:18 PM
I am a Federer's fan. But while watching Federer against Andy and Rafa against Blake, i thought that Rafa was actually doing better than before. His problem was confidence in the cirtical moment. Federer improved his BH a lot in this season, but his volley seems to be awkward right now. Those who beat Nadal in this season in HC has common thing: hitting flat ball and good net game.

See Pim pim, Berdman, Youzhny, Blake. They hit the ball very flat from both side - FH and BH. Federer still hit the ball with top spin rather than pure flat ball on both side.
Besides, apart from Youzhny, three other guys wonderfully handled ralley with Nadal finishing the point in the net. This made Nadal unsettled sticking far behind the baseline. Federer can not do this type of game confidently right now.

This means that baseline game will decide this match. That's why i think Rafa has edge even in this surface right now if he handle confidence problem.

This is just my presupposition. I am an medium level of amateur tennis. I would like to know other guy's opinion. What do you think? If Roger will win, please let me know winning-algebra.

If Roger can't beat Nadal, how did he do it? Did he hired Youzhny to take his place masked? Ah, Youzhny is injured. Johansson? Too tall? Blake? :lol:

Adler
11-18-2006, 03:22 PM
If Roger can't beat Nadal, how did he do it? Did he hired Youzhny to take his place masked? Ah, Youzhny is injured. Johansson? Too tall? Blake?
No, Blake had to play the next match. I think it was Hrbaty

GlennMirnyi
11-18-2006, 03:23 PM
No, Blake had to play the next match. I think it was Hrbaty

Hrbaty?

I thought about Clement too... too short, maybe? Ferrero? No...

I'm so confused! :confused: :rolleyes:

Sunset of Age
11-18-2006, 03:33 PM
Indeed we just saw who has whose number :) And it is sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet :devil:

Indeed. Great match, with a few strange chokes from Rogi, but it's obvious he's the better player on HC - and perhaps overall - at this moment.
We'll see what the AO and the clay season will bring for 2007.

morningglory
11-18-2006, 04:56 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha:
Dude, have more faith in your fave... this is pathetic considering your fave is the big cheese of this era and you're afraid of him losing to that retrieving clay-rolling pig off-clay? :lol:

safin-rules-no.1
11-18-2006, 05:04 PM
I am a Federer's fan. But while watching Federer against Andy and Rafa against Blake, i thought that Rafa was actually doing better than before. His problem was confidence in the cirtical moment. Federer improved his BH a lot in this season, but his volley seems to be awkward right now. Those who beat Nadal in this season in HC has common thing: hitting flat ball and good net game.

See Pim pim, Berdman, Youzhny, Blake. They hit the ball very flat from both side - FH and BH. Federer still hit the ball with top spin rather than pure flat ball on both side.
Besides, apart from Youzhny, three other guys wonderfully handled ralley with Nadal finishing the point in the net. This made Nadal unsettled sticking far behind the baseline. Federer can not do this type of game confidently right now.

This means that baseline game will decide this match. That's why i think Rafa has edge even in this surface right now if he handle confidence problem.

This is just my presupposition. I am an medium level of amateur tennis. I would like to know other guy's opinion. What do you think? If Roger will win, please let me know winning-algebra.


:retard: shows what you know

neenah
11-18-2006, 05:54 PM
I don't know the details of this thread and I'm not stating my opinion on the matter but I thought it was funny that at one point this thread was right above the thread titled "Fed beats Rafa" :p

But again, I'm not saying anything related to the discussion on this thread, it was just funny :D

sanpo
11-18-2006, 07:33 PM
See, if only we had more matches on HC rather than clay, Nadaltards would've cried over the H2H records too. :sob:

GlennMirnyi
11-18-2006, 07:45 PM
See, if only we had more matches on HC rather than clay, Nadaltards would've cried over the H2H records too. :sob:

The problem is Nadal don't get to finals in mid/fast surfaces... :p

guga2120
11-18-2006, 10:19 PM
The problem is Nadal don't get to finals in mid/fast surfaces... :p

except Wimbledon, and Dubai, And Miami, but your right his results have been not good the second half of the year, i know hes not quite over the hill yet;) , and i think he can improve, lets see how early he gets knocked out in Australia, in the heat on that high bouncing court.