[Paris Masters] Davydenko 6-1, 6-2, 6-2 Hrbaty for fifth title this year! [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

[Paris Masters] Davydenko 6-1, 6-2, 6-2 Hrbaty for fifth title this year!

Naranoc
11-05-2006, 02:19 PM
Well done Kolya on his 5th title this year :yeah:

Not the most exciting of finals, but he got the job done (though he almost got broken when serving for the match) Onto Shanghai! :D

TennisGrandSlam
11-05-2006, 02:20 PM
:devil:


Congra. to Davydenko for his first important titles :)

stebs
11-05-2006, 02:20 PM
Davydenko :worship: Really deserves this title, played awesome this week and was simply far too good for Hrbaty.

moulux
11-05-2006, 02:21 PM
:D Bravo!!!!!!!

TheBoiledEgg
11-05-2006, 02:21 PM
that was just a complete and utter spanking he gave to Chipmunk :D :)

Kolya :) :yeah: :D
now for Shanghai and for the same !!!!!!

Scotso
11-05-2006, 02:21 PM
Nikolay :worship:

Amazing run.

Five
11-05-2006, 02:21 PM
too easy :woohoo:

~EMiLiTA~
11-05-2006, 02:21 PM
congrats Kolya!! he deserves to have won a Masters :yeah:

marcelwks
11-05-2006, 02:22 PM
Hrbaty ? what was he doing in final :shocked:

stebs
11-05-2006, 02:22 PM
If Davydenko can defend his Shanghai points he will be very likely to finish the year at #3 as well. :)

Five
11-05-2006, 02:22 PM
:woohoo: Bring it on Shanghai and kick some major ass Kolya:woohoo:

Fedex
11-05-2006, 02:23 PM
Congrats to Davydenko. He's really cemented himself as a top of the line player with this win in Paris.

I♥PsY@Mus!c
11-05-2006, 02:23 PM
I want to be his gf! :lol:
OK,congrats Kolya! :rocker2:

landoud
11-05-2006, 02:23 PM
Congrats Davydenko :)

RonE
11-05-2006, 02:24 PM
Brilliant! Well done Nikolay :yeah:

Finally a TMS title to justify his very good grand slam results. Good to see him transform his potential and great game to such a title.

Andre♥
11-05-2006, 02:24 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, the true Kollya has arrived!

Btw we could now stop calling him PMK?

What about JLK (Just like Kafelnikov)?

Kalliopeia
11-05-2006, 02:26 PM
Aw, yay! I like Davydenko.

And I love the Paris trophy. Too bad Marat couldn't have won, he'd have a little forest going. :)

Voo de Mar
11-05-2006, 02:26 PM
The worst TMS final I've ever seen :zzz:
Kolya equals Nadal's and Blake's achievement this year (5 titles).

stebs
11-05-2006, 02:26 PM
He totally deserves his position. It doesn't take that much to be a top player when the top two grab 6 of the 9 TMS and all four slams.

silverwhite
11-05-2006, 02:26 PM
Congrats, PMK! :yeah:

rofe
11-05-2006, 02:26 PM
Well played through the tournament Kolya. Well deserved! Hope that boosts his confidence in Shanghai.

federated
11-05-2006, 02:28 PM
Congrats to Davydenko. He's really cemented himself as a top of the line player with this win in Paris.

amen. congrats to kolya...and finally we get a smile from the iron man!

RonE
11-05-2006, 02:28 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, the true Kollya has arrived!

Btw we could now stop calling him PMK?

What about JLK (Just like Kafelnikov)?

With all due respect to Kafelnikov, he never won a TMS title in his career :devil:

fadou
11-05-2006, 02:28 PM
congrats kolya:)
hbarty :wavey: good week!

Purple Rainbow
11-05-2006, 02:29 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, the true Kollya has arrived!

Btw we could now stop calling him PMK?

What about JLK (Just like Kafelnikov)?

Maybe we should call Kafelnikov PMD!

enqvistfan
11-05-2006, 02:29 PM
Congrats Davydenko, happy for him :)

TennisGrandSlam
11-05-2006, 02:30 PM
With all due respect to Kafelnikov, he never won a TMS title in his career :devil:

:devil: :devil: :devil:

Norrage
11-05-2006, 02:32 PM
He has become Rich Man's Kafelnikov :)

Horatio Caine
11-05-2006, 02:35 PM
Congrats Kolya!! :woohoo: :worship: :bigclap: :drink:

alfonsojose
11-05-2006, 02:35 PM
Kolya :yeah:
and Hrbaty :tears: :hug:

Monteque
11-05-2006, 02:35 PM
Damn, I feel like a moron.
I'm sure that Nalbandian or Blake or Ljubicic is the one who will take the first TMS title but now....:(

linus
11-05-2006, 02:38 PM
does be a big achievement for Davy :aparty:

esp what he has showed at this tournament :eek: up to a real master :yeah:

Monteque
11-05-2006, 02:40 PM
________

sla
11-05-2006, 02:40 PM
Haven't heard what Dominik said, why did he cry? His tears were so touching... :hug:

adee-gee
11-05-2006, 02:41 PM
Fantastic end to a fantastic tournament.

Now can we dump the Paris TMS.

alfonsojose
11-05-2006, 02:41 PM
Now a Slam, and please, rest more :bowdown:

jennTENnisFan06
11-05-2006, 02:42 PM
Congrats, Davy!!!!:dance:

It's a shame I never gave Davy much thought before this tourney, but I think I have officially joined the Davy bandwagon!! This man is on fire now!

Good luck in Shanghai!!! :kiss:

(maybe now he'll get a clothing sponser...)

scarecrows
11-05-2006, 02:43 PM
Fantastic end to a fantastic tournament.

Now can we dump the Paris TMS.

yeah, only Nadal playing and getting owned by Hrabty would have made it better

adee-gee
11-05-2006, 02:44 PM
yeah, only Nadal playing and getting owned by Hrabty would have made it better
:spit: Hrbaty couldn't have owned Xristos today.

Blue Heart24
11-05-2006, 02:50 PM
:tape:

kokket
11-05-2006, 02:51 PM
Congrats, Davy!!!!:dance:

It's a shame I never gave Davy much thought before this tourney, but I think I have officially joined the Davy bandwagon!! This man is on fire now!

Good luck in Shanghai!!! :kiss:

(maybe now he'll get a clothing sponser...)


i dont think it's that hard to get a sponsor for a Top 5 Player.
perhaps he won't any clothing sponsor ?

Monteque
11-05-2006, 02:51 PM
:spit: Hrbaty couldn't have owned Xristos today.

Well, i think you and Xristos have a special relationship....you always mention him
just wondering.....:yeah:

Xristos
11-05-2006, 02:53 PM
:spit: Hrbaty couldn't have owned Xristos today.

Should I take offence??

Worst final of a TMS ever!!!!

Allez
11-05-2006, 02:54 PM
Congrats to the Russian No.1. Great ending to a very respectable season. So many thought 2005 was just a fluke.

Now please get those hair implants...

A_Skywalker
11-05-2006, 03:00 PM
Vamos Davydenko . Well done !

Xristos
11-05-2006, 03:01 PM
Well, i think you and Xristos have a special relationship....you always mention him
just wondering.....:yeah:

He is my number 1 fan.....

Katastrophe
11-05-2006, 03:01 PM
Well done Kolya, you earned it! :yeah:

helen phillips
11-05-2006, 03:01 PM
Terrific week for Hrbaty but his game doesn't measure up well against Davydenko. Unlike Berdych it's very hard to manouver Davydenko out of position, and Davydenko isn't the type of player who consistently makes errors by going for too much from bad court positions.

It seems to me that Davydenko has really turned a bit of a corner this week. He is often a player whose level of play drops in big moments. His more relaxed attitude this week appears to really have translated into on court results. Less against Hrbaty who isn't all that tough a match up for Davydenko and more in the matches with Ancic and Robredo. A little more steet cred for the almost always overlooked Davydenko.

selyoink
11-05-2006, 03:11 PM
Great job Nikolay! He has truely been the third best player in the world this year.

I'm a little surprised Hrbaty didn't put up much of a fight.

ys
11-05-2006, 03:14 PM
Kolya proved today he is a worthy #3 contender.. Not many allowed the possibility that his 2006 can actually be better than 2005.. Yet, against all odds and predictions he managed to further improve.. Can he go even further in 2007? There is no one left that side from him but the superstars of the sport..

Fergie
11-05-2006, 03:14 PM
Congrats Kolya! :yeah:

But the match was :zzz:

mangoes
11-05-2006, 03:14 PM
Congrats Davydenko:hug: I'm so happy he won. Very deserved win, especially when considering his level of play throughout the tournament.

shotgun
11-05-2006, 03:15 PM
Damn, I feel like a moron.
I'm sure that Nalbandian or Blake or Ljubicic is the one who will take the first TMS title but now....:(

I personally think Nalbandian's TMC title has more value than this one, but you're right, it's funny just to think that Robredo and Davydenko have a TMS title while more hyped players like Ljubicic, Blake and Gonzalez still don't have one.

Metis
11-05-2006, 03:28 PM
Congrats to Davydenko for his 1st Masters Series title!


Thank god the WTA YEC begin on Tuesday and we can finally watch some interesting tennis matches (plus I will be able to see that on TV :dance: after a week of frustrating buffering!).

Broomie
11-05-2006, 03:28 PM
Very happy that Nikolay has his TMS title now. Maybe people will stop saying he is bad at important tournament (forgetting that this year, in slams he often lost to Federer himself).
Keep this form till the DC!!! Marat will need a little help from you :)

PamV
11-05-2006, 03:46 PM
Well done Kolya on his 5th title this year :yeah:

Not the most exciting of finals, but he got the job done (though he almost got broken when serving for the match) Onto Shanghai! :D

Congratulations. This makes him #3 in the world with 3,025 points !!!!

Rogiman
11-05-2006, 03:50 PM
Awesome! :D

Now Kolya is almost certain to finish at #3, and frankly, he desrves it, for his Slam results as well as his smaller titles and now his TMS title.

He really isn't PMK.

Rogiman
11-05-2006, 03:51 PM
Congratulations. This makes him #3 in the world with 3,025 points !!!!Hmmm... Not quite, since his TMC points have been taken off, but I'm sure he'll make it to the TMC semis again, so it's all good.

*Ljubica*
11-05-2006, 03:59 PM
Congrats Kolya :bigclap: You were the best player out there this week by far.

Dominik :hug: :sad:

FluffyYellowBall
11-05-2006, 04:00 PM
Well i was at school but i dont regret my missing the match (i think.) When Hrbaty hasnt even won enough games to complete a set then it must have sucked.:o As for Kolya, WELL DONE!!!!:hug:
Maybe now he'll be respected and get a sponsor:mad:

Ernham
11-05-2006, 04:00 PM
Unfortunately this will put him in Federer's group, but grats nonetheless to Nikolay. I knew you'd win, even when the entirety of MTF did not. :devil:

Kinetix
11-05-2006, 04:04 PM
Koyla :worship:
Really deserves this title, another great year for him and he will be Top 3 tomorrow.

Congrats :D

PamV
11-05-2006, 04:06 PM
Hmmm... Not quite, since his TMC points have been taken off, but I'm sure he'll make it to the TMC semis again, so it's all good.

Here's a rough estimate

Taking off the TMC points then Davydenko would have 2725. I think that still puts him at #3 because Ljubicic didn't defend his Paris points. Ljubicic lost -100 TMC and -350 Paris. ( total is 2395)

Nalbandian lost -650 TMC points putting him at 2200.

Davydenko #3 2725
Roddick #4 2540
Ljubicic #5 2395
Nalbandian #6 2200

PamV
11-05-2006, 04:07 PM
Unfortunately this will put him in Federer's group, but grats nonetheless to Nikolay. I knew you'd win, even when the entirety of MTF did not. :devil:

I thought the TMC is a random draw for the #3-#8 players. However, last year Federer had the #4, #6, #8 players. The other group had the #3 #5 #7 with then # 9 as an alternate.

Marmelade
11-05-2006, 04:18 PM
Great tourny Nicolay :D

TheBoiledEgg
11-05-2006, 04:19 PM
I thought the TMC is a random draw for the #3-#8 players. However, last year Federer had the #4, #6, #8 players. The other group had the #3 #5 #7 with then # 9 as an alternate.

it is random
#1 and #2 in diff gps
then split #3 and #4 into each gp
#5 and #6
#7 and #8

dorkino
11-05-2006, 04:21 PM
Congratulations Davydenko , keep it up :clap2:

PamV
11-05-2006, 04:22 PM
it is random
#1 and #2 in diff gps
then split #3 and #4 into each gp
#5 and #6
#7 and #8

If it is random then it's odd that last year Roger got all the even seeds and the Gold group got the odd ones.

Ernham
11-05-2006, 04:25 PM
I thought the TMC is a random draw for the #3-#8 players. However, last year Federer had the #4, #6, #8 players. The other group had the #3 #5 #7 with then # 9 as an alternate.

I think it's only ther last four that are random.

Voo de Mar
11-05-2006, 04:34 PM
I think it's only ther last four that are random.

The last six are random. For example...

Masters Cup 2003

Red Group
1. Andy Roddick
4. Guillermo Coria
6. Rainer Schuettler
7. Carlos Moya

Blue Group
2. Juan Carlos Ferrero
3. Roger Federer
5. Andre Agassi
8. David Nalbandian

Masters Cup 2004

Red Group
1. Roger Federer
3. Lleyton Hewitt
5. Carlos Moya
8. Gaston Gaudio

Blue Group
2. Andy Roddick
4. Marat Safin
6. Guillermo Coria
7. Tim Henman

Rogiman
11-05-2006, 04:36 PM
I think it's only ther last four that are random.No :shrug:
What is the logic behind assigning #3 to #1's group?

Ernham
11-05-2006, 04:42 PM
No :shrug:
What is the logic behind assigning #3 to #1's group?

Because you are far more likely to get a difficult and weak group by not doing so. You could have a 1,3,4,5 versus a 2,6,7,8 group. The average rank of the first group is almost twice as good as the second.

Naranoc
11-05-2006, 04:44 PM
Does anyone actually know the top eight rankings after Paris? :unsure:

Rogiman
11-05-2006, 04:44 PM
Because you are far more likely to get a difficult and weak group by not doing so. You could have a 1,3,4,5 versus a 2,6,7,8 group. The average rank of the first group is almost twice as good as the second.And according to that logic it'd make more sense to put #3 in #2's group, wouldn't it?

Ernham
11-05-2006, 04:47 PM
And according to that logic it'd make more sense to put #3 in #2's group, wouldn't it?

Sense? You asked me why something made more sense and I told you why. Now you are going on about lord knows what. WHAT is your problem with understanding that not randomizing the first couple of players highly reduces the likelyhood of the a "weak" and a "strong" group. It's pretty god damn simple logic.

TheBoiledEgg
11-05-2006, 04:48 PM
Because you are far more likely to get a difficult and weak group by not doing so. You could have a 1,3,4,5 versus a 2,6,7,8 group. The average rank of the first group is almost twice as good as the second.

it dont work out that way though

its randomly selected like i said.
#3 and go with #2 as well, just like in a normal draw.

Voo de Mar
11-05-2006, 04:51 PM
Because you are far more likely to get a difficult and weak group by not doing so. You could have a 1,3,4,5 versus a 2,6,7,8 group. The average rank of the first group is almost twice as good as the second.

1,3,4,5 - ???? :) it's impossible. All the possibilities (in all 16):
1st group:
1,3,5,7 - 1,4,5,7 - 1,3,6,8 - 1,4,6,8 - 1,3,5,8 - 1,4,6,7 - 1,3,6,7 - 1,4,5,8
2nd group:
2,4,6,8 - 2,3,6,8 - 2,4,5,7 - 2,3,5,7 - 2,4,6,7 - 2,3,5,8 - 2,4,5,8 - 2,3,6,7

Ernham
11-05-2006, 04:51 PM
it dont work out that way though

its randomly selected like i said.
#3 and go with #2 as well, just like in a normal draw.

Right, that's how it works apparently, but that wasn't the question I was asked. I always thought it was only the last 4 random.

Rogiman
11-05-2006, 04:52 PM
Sense? You asked me why something made more sense and I told you why. Now you are going on about lord knows what. WHAT is your problem with understanding that not randomizing the first couple of players highly reduces the likelyhood of the a "weak" and a "strong" group. It's pretty god damn simple logic.Yeah, but you implied #1 and #3 should be put in the same group to avoid disparity between the groups and even mentioned averages and stuff, when in fact 2+3=1+4 so by your own logic the opposite should happen.

Dude, at least be consistent :shrug:

Ernham
11-05-2006, 04:53 PM
1,3,4,5 - ???? :) it's impossible. All the possibilities (in all 16):
1st group:
1,3,5,7 - 1,4,5,7 - 1,3,6,8 - 1,4,6,8 - 1,3,5,8 - 1,4,6,7 - 1,3,6,7 - 1,4,5,8
2nd group:
2,3,6,8 - 2,4,6,8 - 2,4,5,7 - 2,3,5,7 - 2,4,6,7 - 2,3,5,8 - 2,4,5,8 - 2,3,6,7

Huh? How is it impossible?

Rogiman
11-05-2006, 04:54 PM
1,3,4,5 - ???? :) it's impossible. All the possibilities (in all 16):
1st group:
1,3,5,7 - 1,4,5,7 - 1,3,6,8 - 1,4,6,8 - 1,3,5,8 - 1,4,6,7 - 1,3,6,7 - 1,4,5,8
2nd group:
2,4,6,8 - 2,3,6,8 - 2,4,5,7 - 2,3,5,7 - 2,4,6,7 - 2,3,5,8 - 2,4,5,8 - 2,3,6,7there are 8 possibilities though, the matchings for the 1st group determine the 2nd group uniquely.

Voo de Mar
11-05-2006, 04:56 PM
there are 8 possibilities though, the matchings for the 1st group determine the 2nd group uniquely.

Exactly.

Rogiman
11-05-2006, 04:56 PM
Huh? How is it impossible?Again: Group 1 may include one of each pair: {#3,#4}, {#5,#6}, {#7,#8}

Ernham
11-05-2006, 04:58 PM
Yeah, but you implied #1 and #3 should be put in the same group to avoid disparity between the groups and even mentioned averages and stuff, when in fact 2+3=1+4 so by your own logic the opposite should happen.

Dude, at least be consistent :shrug:

We aren't talking about absolute mathematics here. Nadal is not 8 times better than Blake. You could, by trick of mathematics, build a "low high" group that averages well but that would not be good tennis matchups inside groups themselves.

Ernham
11-05-2006, 04:59 PM
Again: Group 1 may include one of each pair: {#3,#4}, {#5,#6}, {#7,#8}

So it's not completely random.... it's conditional.

Voo de Mar
11-05-2006, 05:00 PM
As Federer can't play with Nadal in one group, as Davydenko along with Ljubicic, as Roddick along with Robredo, as Nalbandian along with Blake. It's simple.

Voo de Mar
11-05-2006, 05:02 PM
So it's not completely random.... it's conditional.

Random-conditionally ;)

Rogiman
11-05-2006, 05:04 PM
We aren't talking about absolute mathematics here. Nadal is not 8 times better than Blake. You could, by trick of mathematics, build a "low high" group that averages well but that would not be good tennis matchups inside groups themselves.That'd be subjective, the only objectives measures you have are the rankings, and (although not offically) the current system also prevents match-fixing.

Ernham
11-05-2006, 05:10 PM
Random-conditionally ;)

Generally called "conditional probability"; if X, then y as well.

Voo de Mar
11-05-2006, 05:15 PM
Generally called "conditional probability"; if X, then y as well.

After all you were wrong.

Ernham
11-05-2006, 05:19 PM
After all you were wrong.

Only thing I was wrong about was saying "I think the last four are random."

jole
11-05-2006, 05:20 PM
Good week Dominik. :) The loss obviously blows, but a final is pretty sweet.

Congrats Kolya!

Rogiman
11-05-2006, 05:45 PM
Generally called "conditional probability"; if X, then y as well.You don't seem to understand it very well though.

Ernham
11-05-2006, 05:48 PM
You don't seem to understand it very well though.

Given your pevious comments and this one, I suspect you are projecting.

stebs
11-05-2006, 05:52 PM
Given your pevious comments and this one, I suspect you are projecting.

Seems to me that until now you had the way the tournament works completely wrong.

Rogiman
11-05-2006, 05:56 PM
Given your pevious comments and this one, I suspect you are projecting.Which of them? feel free to quote.

You're invited to a short probability session whenever you feel like.

Ernham
11-05-2006, 05:57 PM
Seems to me that until now you had the way the tournament works completely wrong.

Sort of. On my memory of the event, I had thought the the last four were completely random draws. It seems the last 6 are conditionally random.

And all those people that said the last 6 were "random" are also "completely wrong". Conditinal probability =/= random.

Rogiman
11-05-2006, 06:04 PM
Sort of. On my memory of the event, I had thought the the last four were completely random draws. It seems the last 6 are conditionally random.

And all those people that said the last 6 were "random" are also "completely wrong". Conditinal probability =/= random.Well, they are random, just not independent, there's a distinction.

Ernham
11-05-2006, 06:07 PM
Well, they are random, just not independent, there's a distinction.

Indeed there is. They are not random, however. Looks like your understanding of randomness is completely wrong. Unqualified randomness is complete randomness.

Rogiman
11-05-2006, 06:10 PM
Indeed there is. They are not random, however. Looks like your understanding of randomness is completely wrong. Unqualified randomness is complete randomness.They are all random, since each can be picked to group 1 with probability 0.5 or ignored with probability 0.5, so they're definitely not pre-determined. whether they're independent (clearly in this case they aren't) is a different question.

I guess minor statistics doesn't make the cut.

Ernham
11-05-2006, 06:19 PM
They are all random, since each can be picked to group 1 with probability 0.5 or ignored with probability 0.5, so they're definitely not pre-determined. whether they're independent (clearly in this case they aren't) is a different question.

I guess minor statistics doesn't make the cut.

They are NOT random. Technically, you can't even call that "partially random". They are conditionally random. It's a very specific thing.

stebs
11-05-2006, 07:05 PM
Does the correct term really matter. All that matters is that the draw is made with 1 and 2 on either side. 3 and 4 on either side. 5 and 6 on either side. 7 and 8 on either side.

alfonsojose
11-05-2006, 07:33 PM
:awww: :hug: i'm in love

ys
11-05-2006, 08:08 PM
Scary thing is, that more than 2/3 of Kolya's points now are coming from after-Wimbledon period, and they say that he is a claycourter. Nadal could be under real pressure for #2 rankings in the first half of next year..

tripb19
11-05-2006, 08:38 PM
Another completely lopsided TMS final.

musefanatic
11-05-2006, 09:13 PM
Oh wow well done Nikolay :) Amazing win, totally dominated the match :)

leng jai
11-05-2006, 09:59 PM
This makes Tommy's retirement even worse..

cobalt60
11-06-2006, 01:11 AM
Congrats to ND but I just watched the first hour of the reply on TTC and it was so anticlimatic.

Jimnik
11-06-2006, 01:18 AM
Today, I can honestly say that Davydenko was a joy to watch.

A true champion. :worship:

Action Jackson
11-06-2006, 06:17 AM
Well played PMK and he was clearly superior during the week and now step it up and beat some more top 10 players and congrats to Hrbaty for an excellent week.

soraya
11-06-2006, 06:21 AM
I think his #3 ranking is now legit, great win and congrats for his 1st master's shield.

idolwatcher1
11-06-2006, 06:22 AM
Congrats to Davydenko! I'm very happy for him winning this title, he earned it! :)

Michael Pemulis
11-06-2006, 10:01 AM
Kudos to Kolya who well deserved his set in the rankings. IMO he's a mini-Agassi, lighter and with less punch. Great accelerated goundstrokes, and a serve quite effective: took home 85% of the points with the first serve throughout the tournament (better than Marat and Tommy with the first serve); an average 65% of first serve in; 11 out of 13 b.p. saved. Awesome stats, guys, even if he didn't play tough oppponents (c. rochus, dima tursunov, ancic, tommy and dominik).

I'm very much looking forward to watching him at Shangai.

Voo de Mar
11-06-2006, 10:18 AM
Kudos to Kolya who well deserved his set in the rankings. IMO he's a mini-Agassi, lighter and with less punch.

I thought very similarly yesterday when he demolishes Hrbaty.

Melekhin
11-06-2006, 03:03 PM
well done nikolay!!!

alfonsojose
11-07-2006, 08:13 PM
Kudos to Kolya who well deserved his set in the rankings. IMO he's a mini-Agassi, lighter and with less punch. Great accelerated goundstrokes, and a serve quite effective

I agree, but high balls in the middle are murder for him . Robutto did it on clay the last time they played in the final of .. :scratch: .. and it worked. Andre made you pay for balls like that