What exactly is the effect of altitude?? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

What exactly is the effect of altitude??

supersexynadal
10-18-2006, 05:31 PM
So madrid is the highest european capital and commentaters are going on about how hard it is to control the ball at a high altitude. The court is relativlely slow but y is it that the ball travels fast through the air but bounces on the ground pretty slowly compared to other hard courts?

Deboogle!.
10-18-2006, 05:44 PM
the altitude is what makes the ball fly. You have a guy like Blake who hits hard and flat and his balls are gonna fly more than someone who hits with a lot of spin, and yes from what the commentators say, the surface itself is gritty, takes spin, and is on the slow side for a HC, so you have this dichotomy of the balls flying through the air but the surface itself being a bit slow and i think that's why the conditions are so hard to get used to.

supersexynadal
10-18-2006, 05:51 PM
the altitude is what makes the ball fly. You have a guy like Blake who hits hard and flat and his balls are gonna fly more than someone who hits with a lot of spin, and yes from what the commentators say, the surface itself is gritty, takes spin, and is on the slow side for a HC, so you have this dichotomy of the balls flying through the air but the surface itself being a bit slow and i think that's why the conditions are so hard to get used to.

Well in that case the courts should be fast too:confused: Its not the slpw surface compensates for fast balls.
Do u know why the altitude makes the ball tarevel faster??
This is really intriguing me coz i never knew altitude made a difference till today!

Metis
10-18-2006, 05:54 PM
Well in that case the courts should be fast too:confused: Its not the slpw surface compensates for fast balls.
Do u know why the altitude makes the ball tarevel faster??
This is really intriguing me coz i never knew altitude made a difference till today!
Because the density of the air is lower. :)

Rogiman
10-18-2006, 05:55 PM
I still don't understand how 650m above sea level is considered 'altitude'.

The differences in air density and gravity at this height are totally neglectable, and IMO those morons are just in search for something to talk about.

Neverstopfightin
10-18-2006, 05:59 PM
I still don't understand how 650m above sea level is considered 'altitude'.

The differences in air density and gravity at this height are totally neglectable, and IMO those morons are just in search for something to talk about.

Those morons are a lot of players that feel very strange in his first practises in Madrid because they have problems to control their shots.

Neverstopfightin
10-18-2006, 06:00 PM
The effects of altitude are : the ball flies more and faster in the air , and if I'm not wrong altitude makes a higher bounce too .

GlennMirnyi
10-18-2006, 06:01 PM
Easy easy:

ρ = p/RT where ρ = air density, R = gas constant, T = temperature.

The pressure diminishes with altitude, as hydrostatic pressure is P=ρgh (h is the height of the fluid column - air is the fluid and the place being in a higher place, the column of air on top of it must be lower).

The proportion between ρ and P is direct, and if P lowers, ρ must be lower too, so both sides of the equation remain true.

There you go, ρ (air density) diminishes with height, making the ball fly a little faster.

Temperature changes too, and it should be taken into consideration, but the difference of temperature isn't very high, unless the difference of altitude is really high too. In fact, temperature's effect is probably greater than pressure's effect.

rofe
10-18-2006, 06:01 PM
I still don't understand how 650m above sea level is considered 'altitude'.

The differences in air density and gravity at this height are totally neglectable, and IMO those morons are just in search for something to talk about.

I agree with you. Air friction should not be a factor at 2000 ft above sea level and gravity should be the same even at higher altitudes. :) Someone said that the balls are flying due to the balls and not due to the altitude though I can't find the link now.

Deboogle!.
10-18-2006, 06:02 PM
:shrug: The balls in Madrid are the same as in all of the Masters events and I think they are known to fly a bit, but it's not mentioned anywhere else nearly as much as Madrid - this comes up every year.
---------------------------------------

Q. Andy, some players say it's hard to control the ball in these conditions here, but you did a pretty good job of it, didn't you?

ANDY RODDICK: It's definitely tough. What are we looking at, about 2000 feet of altitude or something, you know. Coming from Vienna, it was just tough where the balls were huge. To here where the ball carries an extra probably two or three feet on every shot. It's definitely an adjustment.



Q. What sort of adjustment do you make? Do you have to throttle back, or do you decide to just go for it?

ANDY RODDICK: I think the biggest thing was I went up in tension on my rackets to make it tighter so the ball doesn't fly off as much. Four or five pounds different on my tension. So that was probably the only major adjustment. It fits in better for my game anyways.

Neverstopfightin
10-18-2006, 06:04 PM
For instance the main reason why Madrid wasn't elected as 2004 Davis Cup final venue was because Roddick's serve was more dangerous at altitude , then Seville was the elected

Rogiman
10-18-2006, 06:05 PM
There you go, ρ (air density) diminished with height, making the ball fly a little faster.

Temperature changes too, and it should be taken into consideration, but the difference of temperature isn't very high, unless the difference of altitude is really high too. In fact, temperature's effect is probably greater than pressure's effect.Anyone who's ever tried to light a cigarette at 4000m knows what difference altitude makes. At 650m, however, it's plain bullshit.

Metis
10-18-2006, 06:05 PM
I still don't understand how 650m above sea level is considered 'altitude'.

The differences in air density and gravity at this height are totally neglectable, and IMO those morons are just in search for something to talk about.
Well, at the level that these guys are playing even small things make a difference. At the Madrid altitude the density of the air is about 5% lower than at sea level, which means that the air is thinner, the friction (resistance) exercised on the ball is lower. Therefore the ball travels faster. I agree it sounds negligible, but how can we know unless we play at the pro level?

Rogiman
10-18-2006, 06:07 PM
Well, at the level that these guys are playing even small things make a difference. At the Madrid altitude the density of the air is about 5% lower than at sea level, which means that the air is thinner, the friction (resistance) exercised on the ball is lower. Therefore the ball travels faster. I agree it sounds negligible, but how can we know unless we play at the pro level?Have they also reported breathing difficulties at 650m?

Deboogle!.
10-18-2006, 06:07 PM
Well, at the level that these guys are playing even small things make a difference. At the Madrid altitude the density of the air is about 5% lower than at sea level, which means that the air is thinner, the friction (resistance) exercised on the ball is lower. Therefore the ball travels faster. I agree it sounds negligible, but how can we know unless we play at the pro level?Well, the science of it may be negligible but if Andy's right that the ball is flying 2-3 feet more, then that is certainly not negligible, and it explains why so many seeded players here have trouble in their first matches year after year.Have they also reported breathing difficulties at 650m?it seems logically feasible to me that the air is just thinner enough to influence the speed of the ball, but not make it harder for people to breathe :shrug:

rofe
10-18-2006, 06:08 PM
Well, at the level that these guys are playing even small things make a difference. At the Madrid altitude the density of the air is about 5% lower than at sea level, which means that the air is thinner, the friction (resistance) exercised on the ball is lower. Therefore the ball travels faster. I agree it sounds negligible, but how can we know unless we play at the pro level?

Oh, there is no denying that there is a difference but is it large enough for a pro player to lose due to that difference? I don't think so.

GlennMirnyi
10-18-2006, 06:08 PM
I still don't understand how 650m above sea level is considered 'altitude'.

The differences in air density and gravity at this height are totally neglectable, and IMO those morons are just in search for something to talk about.

Based on global averages, the air pressure is about 92.5% of standard air pressure (at mean sea level).
Air density is about 1.15, 94.2% of 1.22 (air density at sea level).

These numbers just agree with what you said. It's negligible.

Neverstopfightin
10-18-2006, 06:09 PM
:shrug: The balls in Madrid are the same as in all of the Masters events and I think they are known to fly a bit, but it's not mentioned anywhere else nearly as much as Madrid - this comes up every year.

The balls used at Masters Series ( Penn ) fly more in the air than for instance Wilson. The Wilson balls used at US Open series are faster, smaller , lower bounce etc than Penn

GlennMirnyi
10-18-2006, 06:10 PM
Anyone who's ever tried to light a cigarette at 4000m knows what difference altitude makes. At 650m, however, it's plain bullshit.

Read my last post.

Metis
10-18-2006, 06:11 PM
Oh, there is no denying that there is a difference but is it large enough for a pro player to lose due to that difference? I don't think so.
No, I don't think they can blame the altitude for their losses. They should be able to make the necessary adjustments. Besides it affects all players. :)

Neverstopfightin
10-18-2006, 06:14 PM
Even players like Verdasco an F.Lopez used to practise in Madrid a lot of years , actually Verdasco lives there , they feel a bit strange when they return to Madrid after playing at the sea level

scoobs
10-18-2006, 06:18 PM
I think it does make a slight difference to the speed of the ball - noticeable to the players.

I also suspect some players overcompensate on their adjustment as a result.

GlennMirnyi
10-18-2006, 06:18 PM
Yeah, a 6% difference must affect a lot a player like Lopez, a loser with a capital "L".

lordmanji
10-18-2006, 06:19 PM
from personal experience, i usually play at a close to sea level court. then last wk i went and played at the top of a hill and the balls were flying. yet i could still hit it so im thinking it slowed down quite a bit (like some of u said) once it hit the ground. this change was more pronounced in the wimbledon balls than the penn balls we played with.

Deboogle!.
10-19-2006, 12:04 AM
Well James also believes it has a pretty big effect, so I don't think all these players are insane :p

Q. James, I guess it's possibly difficult to answer questions without taking credit away from your opponent. But could you talk about how you adapted from Stockholm to here and how difficult it is to adapt?
JAMES BLAKE: It's tough. The altitude here, obviously the preparation isn't perfect. It's kind of a fine line between having a lot of confidence and having a lot of matches, as opposed to being prepared better, being here for longer, getting used to the courts, getting used to the altitude, just kind of being ready.

..........

Q. How much of a factor is the altitude here? Because there's a few players who have mentioned it? Can you talk about that a bit?
JAMES BLAKE: I think it's definitely a factor. The first game I got broke even and a couple of my forehands have just sailed. I think it's tougher to play your normal rally ball. It ends up sailing a little bit more than you expect.

If I had a little more time, I think I definitely played better in the third set than the first set. I think Kristof did as well. I think it helps to have that match under your belt where I've played. And it's definitely something that affects most of the guys when they get here. It's something that makes it a little tougher to deal with, but, same for everyone.

GlennMirnyi
10-19-2006, 12:06 AM
Blake is making excuses. I don't see Vliegen complaining.

Action Jackson
10-19-2006, 02:18 AM
650m above sea level has minimal effect, something Glenn has already shown from the numbers.

They are playing at higher altitudes now in Bogota, and they just played challengers in Quito and Medellin where Guccione won both on clay and that is 2850m above sea level, while Medellin was lower, then you will see the effects of altitude in respect to these playing conditions.

Deboogle!.
10-19-2006, 04:14 AM
650m above sea level has minimal effect, something Glenn has already shown from the numbers.

They are playing at higher altitudes now in Bogota, and they just played challengers in Quito and Medellin where Guccione won both on clay and that is 2850m above sea level, while Medellin was lower, then you will see the effects of altitude in respect to these playing conditions.So all the players in Madrid who say it has a big effect on their shots are lying or crazy? :shrug:
==================
Q. Carlos, what is the problem you find in Madrid? You're not confident here? You see the end of the season coming closer?

CARLOS MOYA: I think the problem is the altitude. For a reason I've never felt comfortable here playing so high. Even when I was five, seven, top in the world, I found it difficult to play here. I don't feel very comfortable here.

The reason, I cannot tell. Because my serve is quite good. I should have earned better results. I don't think it's a matter of the calendar, of it being close to the end of the season, because sometimes I have been closer to the end of the year and I've played well.

Action Jackson
10-19-2006, 04:23 AM
So all the players in Madrid who say it has a big effect on their shots are lying or crazy? :shrug:

If they were talking about Gstaad or even Kitz, then it would have more credence than Madrid. Well it's a relative thing, if they are playing at 100m or below and then go to 650m, then there is a slight difference and even those scientific numbers suggest that, but there is exaggeritis when it comes to causes and effects.

Seriously what are they complaining about? I mean I have played tennis at 1000m and above, that has a noticeable effect and it's not like they aren't capable of bringing in the margins of where they want to hit the ball. In fact as pros they should be able to do that easily.

Deboogle!.
10-19-2006, 04:31 AM
On the other hand, they are pros and everything is so finely tuned, that the slightest differences in conditions are exacerbated for them. I think Andy changing his racquet 4-5 lbs from one week to the next with just a couple days to make the adjustment is probably a decent-sized adjustment for him or any of these guys to make. Seems pretty clear at this point from what players have said this year and in years past that they have trouble with it. Obviously those who either get there earlier or adjust quicker do better, and perhaps Moya is exaggerating its effect when he goes so far to blame it for why he hasn't had success at the tourney throughout his career, but when you have all these players say it's tough to adjust to, it takes some time, they have to change their racquet tensions or whatever, it seems pretty clear that no matter what physics formulas applied to the situation, the altitude has an effect. Plus, based on the season and whatnot, most of these guys ARE coming from somewhere lower. Maybe if they just came to Madrid and were there for a while they wouldn't notice it, but the guys coming from the three tourneys would all have to adjust pretty quickly, especially the seeded players who are all playing a guy who's had a match to get used to it already.

Maybe they do talk about it at Gstaad or Kitz but it's not a Masters event and we don't have the luxury of reading the press conferences of all the top players to be able to see when they're asked about it.

It's not like they're complaining about it (by and large), they're just saying it's a factor and something they have to adjust to. :shrug:

Action Jackson
10-19-2006, 04:37 AM
Maybe they do talk about it at Gstaad or Kitz but it's not a Masters event and we don't have the luxury of reading the press conferences of all the top players to be able to see when they're asked about it.

It's not like they're complaining about it (by and large), they're just saying it's a factor and something they have to adjust to. :shrug:

They are exaggerating it big time, they are pampered these players we know that. As for the racquets as the ball will fly cause of less air pressure, then change the tension it's not that hard for them to work it out.

Yes, they do talk about it at Kitz and Gstaad, as it's one of the main factors there and there are players that play well in those conditions and there are others who don't, just like anywhere else.

650m isn't high enough to warrant coming a week early to get used to the altitude, as it's not high enough. For a proper high altitude event, the players would either get there the night before so it won't effect them as much or have 3 weeks to acclimatise and that isn't exactly practical for obvious reasons.

Hendu
10-19-2006, 05:31 AM
A Masters Series in Bolivia. That would be really funny.

Action Jackson
10-19-2006, 05:33 AM
A Masters Series in Bolivia. That would be really funny.

Once Mr Disney gets overthrown, they should have a tour event in La Paz and not in the lower part which is only 3600m above sea level. It should be played near the airport at 4000m above and a best of 5 set final.

Hendu
10-19-2006, 05:46 AM
Once Mr Disney gets overthrown, they should have a tour event in La Paz and not in the lower part which is only 3600m above sea level. It should be played near the airport at 4000m above and a best of 5 set final.

The matches would start at 12:00, with the sun above, in the middle of the sky. Of course, it would be played on a dark hardcourt.

Hendu
10-19-2006, 05:48 AM
Rain wouldn't be an issue, thats for sure. :)

Action Jackson
10-19-2006, 05:51 AM
The matches would start at 12:00, with the sun above, in the middle of the sky. Of course, it would be played on a dark hardcourt.

Nah, it'd be better on clay. Imagine the stinging sensation in the legs after a 35 shot rally cause of the dry air.

Then again lots of players may fail tests cause they drank coca tea.

Hendu
10-19-2006, 06:01 AM
Nah, it'd be better on clay. Imagine the stinging sensation in the legs after a 35 shot rally cause of the dry air.

Sensation in the legs? they would need to be given oxygen in the changeovers.

Then again lots of players may fail tests cause they drank coca tea.

Actually, there was a case of an Argentine football player who failed a test because of drinking a coke tea. Or at least, that was his excuse.

Oh, how could I forget????????

All Argentines are junkies!!!!

but thats for the other thread. :lol:

Action Jackson
10-19-2006, 06:04 AM
Sensation in the legs? they would need to be given oxygen in the changeovers.

Actually, there was a case of an Argentine football player who failed a test because of drinking a coke tea. Or at least, that was his excuse.

Oh, how could I forget????????

All Argentines are junkies!!!!

but thats for the other thread. :lol:

The legs will be burning big time after rallies like that and imagine that the ball kids will have to get the oxygen masks out and on at the end of the set, the opportunities are endless.

Yes, I heard about the coca tea excuse, though it does help with AMS, something they won't get in Madrid.

MisterQ
10-19-2006, 07:38 AM
Madrid is nothing compared to 30,000 feet. The low air density isn't a problem if you can make the other guy do all the running. You have to aim a bit to the left to compensate for the jet stream.

http://us.tnpv.net/i/nytstore/NSAP357_large.jpg

Mrs. B
10-19-2006, 08:11 AM
Madrid is nothing compared to 30,000 feet. The low air density isn't a problem if you can make the other guy do all the running. You have to aim a bit to the left to compensate for the jet stream.

http://us.tnpv.net/i/nytstore/NSAP357_large.jpg

:haha: :haha: Mr. Q strikes again!

kindablue
10-19-2006, 08:16 AM
Madrid is nothing compared to 30,000 feet. The low air density isn't a problem if you can make the other guy do all the running. You have to aim a bit to the left to compensate for the jet stream.

http://us.tnpv.net/i/nytstore/NSAP357_large.jpg

Good one MisterQ :yeah:

FSRteam
10-19-2006, 09:01 AM
Have they also reported breathing difficulties at 650m?

:haha: :haha: :haha:

Action Jackson
10-19-2006, 09:03 AM
Mister Q strikes again.

He has more hits than a poker machine in Las Vegas.

FSRteam
10-19-2006, 09:05 AM
Even players like Verdasco an F.Lopez used to practise in Madrid a lot of years , actually Verdasco lives there , they feel a bit strange when they return to Madrid after playing at the sea level

Come on, what tournaments do they play at sea levels?!?

They're playing different altitude evry single tournament! That's no excuse for losing!!!

What should they say when they play gstaad then!?! :rolleyes:

FSRteam
10-19-2006, 09:17 AM
Madrid is nothing compared to 30,000 feet. The low air density isn't a problem if you can make the other guy do all the running. You have to aim a bit to the left to compensate for the jet stream.

http://us.tnpv.net/i/nytstore/NSAP357_large.jpg

Priceless!!! :haha: :haha: :haha:

Lee
10-19-2006, 05:58 PM
Madrid is nothing compared to 30,000 feet. The low air density isn't a problem if you can make the other guy do all the running. You have to aim a bit to the left to compensate for the jet stream.

http://us.tnpv.net/i/nytstore/NSAP357_large.jpg

:worship:

r2473
10-19-2006, 10:29 PM
In Salt Lake City, Utah, we always play with High Altitude balls or they fly too much and bounce too high, making the game stupid. Salt Lake City is 4330 ft. above sea level (in the valley. Snowbird ski resort is 8100 feet above sea level at the base).

vogus
10-19-2006, 10:47 PM
there is no way that only 2,000 feet of altitude is appreciably changing the speed of the game.

When they play challengers in Mexico, or Ecuador and Bolivia at 10,000 feet, now that is altitude. Not Madrid.

soraya
10-19-2006, 11:21 PM
Djokovic with his breathing problems could have difficicuty playing in Madrid, yet I have not heard anything from his camp yet.