ok, i admit it, i'm a hater, and... [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

ok, i admit it, i'm a hater, and...

croat123
09-16-2006, 11:43 PM
i lesser players taking out top players before you play them is clearly not your fault and your results are just as worthy.

but take a look at these stats i compiled thanks to the great folks at atptennis.com

roddick's last top10 win: hewitt in cincy 2005

roddick's only two top10 win outside the u.s.: safin in thailand 2004 (third set tb). before that, he beat agassi in queens 2003 (third set tb)

roddick's last top10 win in a grand slam: ferrero in uso final 2003

number of top ten players he has beaten a grand slam events other than the uso: 0

robinhood
09-16-2006, 11:51 PM
:eek::eek::eek:
NOOOOOOOOO................
Wait, in his entire career???
That can't be true.
If it is, that's unbelivable.

Neely
09-16-2006, 11:55 PM
It's okay to like or dislike certain players, but I'm sure the following statistic don't prevent you from liking Ivan, or do they?


Number of top 10 players Ljubicic has beaten in all of his Slams he ever played in his entire career: 0

Masters Series Titles: 0
Grand Slam Titles: 0

atheneglaukopis
09-16-2006, 11:56 PM
roddick's last top10 win in a grand slam: ferrero in uso final 2003

number of top ten players he has beaten a grand slam events other than the uso: 0This came up in another forum recently, and what we determined after checking the stats is that Ferrero is Roddick's ONLY top ten win in a Grand Slam. Ever. But as you said, it's not Roddick's fault that say, Nadal couldn't beat Youzhny.

croat123
09-16-2006, 11:58 PM
It's okay to like or dislike certain players, but I'm sure the following statistic don't prevent you from liking Ivan, or do they?


Number of top 10 players Ljubicic has beaten in all of his Slams he ever played in his entire career: 0

Masters Series Titles: 0
Grand Slam Titles: 0
ivan's awesome :)

he's has beaten top players on every surface and just about every region where he has played. he's not an ego driven player who disrespects opponents on court and manipulates the crowd every chance he gets :)

croat123
09-16-2006, 11:59 PM
+ it's hard to bring ivan into this because, remember, he is not a "true" top10 player. in fact, he shouldn't even be in the top50. roddick, on the other hand, is "in the mix." he's challenging for gs titles and he is the "real" number 3

Yappa
09-16-2006, 11:59 PM
ivan's awesome :)

he's has beaten top players on every surface and just about every region where he has played. he's not an ego driven player who disrespects opponents on court and manipulates the crowd every chance he gets :)

Its good that you put the disclaimer in the thread name, so I dont need to bother with a reply. ;)

croat123
09-17-2006, 12:00 AM
Its good that you put the disclaimer in the thread name, so I dont need to bother with a reply. ;)
:wavey::yeah:

Neely
09-17-2006, 12:03 AM
he's has beaten top players on every surface and just about every region where he has played. he's not an ego driven player who disrespects opponents on court and manipulates the crowd every chance he gets :)
Okay taking the stats and if you take all the events Ivan has beaten more top 10 players recently than Roddick, such as Gonzalez or Nalbandian (or Blake if you want to count Team World Championships). And it is right to say that many American players are lacking results outside of the US. Because Croatia only has very few tournaments, of course Ljubicic does more around the whole world than Roddick, Blake, Ginepri... So much for the plain numbers. But if you want to talk about the behaviour or personality, that's something else now because I thought you wanted to present the stats you collected ;)

Havok
09-17-2006, 12:04 AM
Retarded thread. We all know stats simply overshadow everything and are not used to manipulate the person's focus right?

PamV
09-17-2006, 12:15 AM
roddick's last top10 win in a grand slam: ferrero in uso final 2003



The win against Ferrero in the 2003 USO final was his only win against a top 10 opponent in a slam in any round.

~*BGT*~
09-17-2006, 01:50 AM
i lesser players taking out top players before you play them is clearly not your fault and your results are just as worthy.

but take a look at these stats i compiled thanks to the great folks at atptennis.com

roddick's last top10 win: hewitt in cincy 2005

roddick's only two top10 win outside the u.s.: safin in thailand 2004 (third set tb). before that, he beat agassi in queens 2003 (third set tb)

roddick's last top10 win in a grand slam: ferrero in uso final 2003

number of top ten players he has beaten a grand slam events other than the uso: 0

You're leaning on the verge of obsession. I'm not a fan of Ljubicic obviously, but I don't start threads on how he didn't play a single player in the top 75 at the FO until he lost the only one he faced, or how he hasn't ever won a MS, a GS, how no one outside of Eastern Europe really likes him that much, how he has the personality and likeability of a bottle of hand sanitizer, and how he likes to whine and bitch after he loses a match. (Roddick- USO 03; Gasquet- USO 05, Nadal- FO 2006, just to name a few ;) )

So, consider the flaws and holes in the personality and results of your own favorite before you move on to another. :wavey: :p :cool:

Grinder
09-17-2006, 01:58 AM
i lesser players taking out top players before you play them is clearly not your fault and your results are just as worthy.

but take a look at these stats i compiled thanks to the great folks at atptennis.com

roddick's last top10 win: hewitt in cincy 2005

roddick's only two top10 win outside the u.s.: safin in thailand 2004 (third set tb). before that, he beat agassi in queens 2003 (third set tb)

roddick's last top10 win in a grand slam: ferrero in uso final 2003

number of top ten players he has beaten a grand slam events other than the uso: 0


Roddick defeated Federer in Canada 2003. :wavey:

croat123
09-17-2006, 02:01 AM
Roddick defeated Federer in Canada 2003. :wavey:
eh, canada :ras: ok, outside of north america
(damn fed for chocking that one away...it ended up costing him the #1 ranking)

croat123
09-17-2006, 02:04 AM
Okay taking the stats and if you take all the events Ivan has beaten more top 10 players recently than Roddick, such as Gonzalez or Nalbandian (or Blake if you want to count Team World Championships). And it is right to say that many American players are lacking results outside of the US. Because Croatia only has very few tournaments, of course Ljubicic does more around the whole world than Roddick, Blake, Ginepri... So much for the plain numbers. But if you want to talk about the behaviour or personality, that's something else now because I thought you wanted to present the stats you collected ;)
except i admitted i'm a hater
the reason this thread was started because roddick is the #6 in the world and i don't think he merits it based on the level of his play. he has benefitted from some very generous draws in his career. he's made 3, yes 3, grand slam finals without playing a top10 player, he's won a few tms events without playing a top10 player. in fact, he hasn't beaten a top10 player on 4 of the 5 continents he has played on.

World Beater
09-17-2006, 02:16 AM
ok...has nadal beaten a top 10 player in a hc gs?

does he deserve his #2 ranking? yes. does that mean he is a clay mug? no

you can dig up stats like these for quite a few players.

~*BGT*~
09-17-2006, 02:19 AM
ok...has nadal beaten a top 10 player in a hc gs?

does he deserve his #2 ranking? yes. does that mean he is a clay mug? no

you can dig up stats like these for quite a few players.

It's called OBSESSION!!! But, it's not a curse. it can be treated. :)

TennisAgenda
09-17-2006, 02:43 AM
The USA media would NEVER print this in their newspapers. For all of Jimmy Connors moaning about Roddick and the American reporters hyping Roddick. I just don't think Roddick is as naturally talented as some of the Europeans or South Americans. Roddick has been lucky in Cincinatti and the US OPEN to have the benefit of a weaker draw. Hewitt had a knee injury and he clearly was exhausted after the Gasquet match. Roddick was lucky because Nadal lost early. This is what we still have not seen we haven't seen Roddick beat a bunch of top ten players or real great players back to back to win events or slams. The USA media can have their moment with Roddick but Roger Federer just brushed Roddick aside in the final set in the US OPEN final.

Tennis Fool
09-17-2006, 04:02 AM
Interesting stats :eek:

I thought Nalby was Top 10 in 2004...what was his rank at the US Open that year?

Also, Roddick has had a lot of success at the Masters and Slam levels, well despite the Slams this year other than US Open. I can say that this is due to being lucky THAT many times :shrug:

Whistleway
09-17-2006, 05:03 AM
I don't hate roddick or anything, but, those stats are staggering for someone who has been in the top for the last three years.

Jimnik
09-17-2006, 05:12 AM
This is so stupid, especially coming from a Ljubicic fan. Take a look at your own player's results this year.

Never has Andy Roddick, in his entire career, had anywhere near as easy a draw as Ljubicic had at Roland Garros this year:

R128 Berlocq, Carlos (ARG) 82 6-2 6-0 6-3
R64 Hernandez, Oscar (ESP) 131 6-3 6-7(7) 6-1 6-2
R32 Monaco, Juan (ARG) 103 4-6 5-7 6-3 6-4 6-2
R16 Ramirez Hidalgo, Ruben (ESP) 79 6-3 3-6 6-3 6-2
Q Benneteau, Julien (FRA) 95 6-2 6-2 6-3
S Nadal, Rafael (ESP) 2 4-6 2-6 6-7(7)

That is the most ridiculous joke of a draw I have ever seen at a Grand Slam. How could any Ljubicic fan possibly complain about Roddick's draw after seeing a draw like that?

And that gave Ljubicic more ranking points than any of his other results over the last 52 weeks. This is why people question Ljubicic's position in the top 5.

bluefork
09-17-2006, 05:34 AM
You're leaning on the verge of obsession. I'm not a fan of Ljubicic obviously, but I don't start threads on how he didn't play a single player in the top 75 at the FO until he lost the only one he faced, or how he hasn't ever won a MS, a GS, how no one outside of Eastern Europe really likes him that much, how he has the personality and likeability of a bottle of hand sanitizer, and how he likes to whine and bitch after he loses a match. (Roddick- USO 03; Gasquet- USO 05, Nadal- FO 2006, just to name a few ;) )

So, consider the flaws and holes in the personality and results of your own favorite before you move on to another. :wavey: :p :cool:

I'm not from Eastern Europe, but Ljubicic seems like an okay guy to me. Why does he get so much criticism here in MTF? :confused:

TennisAgenda
09-17-2006, 05:50 AM
Roddick is hyped beyond the max and yet when he gets tough draws he tends to fail as proven by this year's Wimbledon draw. Andy Murray was such a tough opponent for Roddick and he knocked Andy off on his best surface in straight sets. Roddick has proven that he can't seem to get through the tough draws and that's why he's been coming up short for the past few years. This year Roddick once again had an easy draw once Nadal was eliminated.

nkhera1
09-17-2006, 07:19 AM
What about when he beat Coria to win the Nasdaq a couple years back? I think Coria was top 5 at least.


edit: In fact he was #3 and he also beat Moya who was #5 and he has beaten Moya a bunch of other times when he was ranked well, and what about all of his wins in the tennis Masters Championship?

s.m.
09-17-2006, 07:22 AM
It's okay to like or dislike certain players, but I'm sure the following statistic don't prevent you from liking Ivan, or do they?


Number of top 10 players Ljubicic has beaten in all of his Slams he ever played in his entire career: 0

Masters Series Titles: 0
Grand Slam Titles: 0

you are joking right ?

you are comparing andy-bigger then life, great american hope, 2nd best player in the world-roddick, against ivan-the average, just the serve, boring, who the hell is he-ljubičić

as for facts goes, you are right, but dick-rod is in his own category
apples and oranges nelly
ljubo does pretty well for some kid that ran away from war with 14, and got no break in his life, like some brats
nobody has to like him ( he´s even getting on my nerves pretty often ), but he deserves a little more respect than people give him

nkhera1
09-17-2006, 07:23 AM
What about when Roddick beat Sampras when he was #4 at Miami?

nkhera1
09-17-2006, 07:25 AM
What about when he beat Moya who was then #7 at Indian Wells last year?

nkhera1
09-17-2006, 07:34 AM
What about when Roddick beat Coria, Safin and Henman at Houston in 2004?

nkhera1
09-17-2006, 07:35 AM
What about when he beat Coria and Moya in 2003 in Houston?

princediablo
09-17-2006, 07:46 AM
The Topic Creater is starting to look stupider and stupider... :silly:

nkhera1
09-17-2006, 07:50 AM
He also beat Grosjean on grass in 2004 and 2005 when I'm pretty sure he was top 10.

Black Adam
09-17-2006, 08:28 AM
Is it his fault that top 10 players lost early opening his draw. e.g. AO 2003 He was set to play Hewitt in Quarters but Hewitt was shocked by his opponent Younes El Ayanaoui.

bluefork
09-17-2006, 01:46 PM
The Topic Creater is starting to look stupider and stupider... :silly:

Well, wasn't one of the Topic Creator's points that Roddick doesn't do well against top 10 outside of the U.S.? And all of the examples given by nkhera1 were in the U.S.

Action Jackson
09-17-2006, 01:55 PM
Roddick is a homer and does well in the big tournaments of North America and since he is meant to be among the elite, then his success rate at bigger events outside of North America should be better than it is. This pretty much what croat is attempting to point out or I assume that.

Attack the argument and there wasn't a need to bring Ljubicic into this cause he is not or ever was a considered a great hope of tennis. Ljubo has a poor Slam record, but even that is on the up, but he isn't the issue here.

Horatio Caine
09-17-2006, 02:00 PM
It's okay to like or dislike certain players, but I'm sure the following statistic don't prevent you from liking Ivan, or do they?


Number of top 10 players Ljubicic has beaten in all of his Slams he ever played in his entire career: 0

Masters Series Titles: 0
Grand Slam Titles: 0

:haha: :haha: :worship:

Pea
09-17-2006, 02:24 PM
Croat speaks the truth!:bow:

sanpo
09-17-2006, 03:50 PM
eh, canada :ras: ok, outside of north america
(damn fed for chocking that one away...it ended up costing him the #1 ranking)

Yeah, this is the only one thing i'm bitter about. :sobbing:

He should have been in the running for the 4th consecutive year end no.1 by now.

Veronique
09-17-2006, 05:59 PM
By virtue of his (her) handle here, the thread starter brings Ljubo in this debate. Andy is a winner, 1 GS win, a few GS finals, and a bunch of MS wins. Ljubo has 0 in all those categories. Last year was his best year and he's going nowhere but down from here. I'd rather be excited about Mario.

MarieS
09-17-2006, 06:07 PM
By virtue of his (her) handle here, the thread starter brings Ljubo in this debate. Andy is a winner, 1 GS win, a few GS finals, and a bunch of MS wins. Ljubo has 0 in all those categories. Last year was his best year and he's going nowhere but down from here. I'd rather be excited about Mario.
Ok, how are ljubicic's achievements relevant here? I don't think it's a comparison in any way...I don't think the original poster is suggesting that Ljubicic is better than Andy b/c Andy has beaten so few top 10ers in his career(he/she might think that but based on other things I'm sure). It's just an interesting stat, especially in light of the fact that andy's considered by many to be an elite player and was at one time the supposed future of the game.

ezekiel
09-17-2006, 06:24 PM
those stats are shocking to say the last :eek:
So the only thing separating Ivan and A-Dick is the luck of the draw, when they face unseeded opponents they are pretty much unbeatable or this is all just fuzzy math . I am guessing many of their opponents were in 10-20 range or former top 10-ers

DrJules
09-17-2006, 06:55 PM
Roddick is a homer and does well in the big tournaments of North America and since he is meant to be among the elite, then his success rate at bigger events outside of North America should be better than it is.

Rather the inverse of Nadal who does well outside the USA, but has never lived up to his number 2 position in the USA.

However, Roddick's grand slam record outside the USA is not that bad for a player ranked behind Federer and Nadal. In 12 grand slam outside US from 2003 he has reached 2 finals, 3 semi-finals and 1 quarter final. Excluding Federer and Nadal how many others have done better in the 3 grand slams outside USA?

DrJules
09-17-2006, 07:05 PM
those stats are shocking to say the last :eek:
So the only thing separating Ivan and A-Dick is the luck of the draw, when they face unseeded opponents they are pretty much unbeatable or this is all just fuzzy math . I am guessing many of their opponents were in 10-20 range or former top 10-ers

Sometimes statistics can be deceptive. Roddick against current top 10 head to head:

Federer 1-11.
Nadal 1-1.
Ljubicic 5-3.
Nalbandian 3-1.
Davydenko 4-0.
Robredo 7-0.
Blake 6-2.
Baghdatis 1-1.
Stepanek 1-0.

Against current top 10 players Federer is the only player Roddick has a losing record. Excluding Federer, Roddick is 28-8.

Federer is the only player, possibly Hewitt when fit, who has total control on Roddick.

PamV
09-17-2006, 07:09 PM
What about when Roddick beat Sampras when he was #4 at Miami?

The stat before was refering to results in slams.

bluefork
09-17-2006, 07:13 PM
Sometimes statistics can be deceptive. Roddick against current top 10 head to head:

Federer 1-11.
Nadal 1-1.
Ljubicic 5-3.
Nalbandian 3-1.
Davydenko 4-0.
Robredo 7-0.
Blake 6-2.
Baghdatis 1-1.
Stepanek 1-0.

Against current top 10 players Federer is the only player Roddick has a losing record. Excluding Federer, Roddick is 28-8.

Federer is the only player, possibly Hewitt when fit, who has total control on Roddick.

But how many of those wins came when the players were actually IN the top 10?

ExpectedWinner
09-17-2006, 07:20 PM
He also beat Grosjean on grass in 2004 and 2005 when I'm pretty sure he was top 10.

I believe Grosjean was ranked in 20s. It's possible that he was seeded in top 10 by Wimbledon.

So far, Roodick has beaten only one top 10 player in GS tournaments(Ferrero).

RickDaStick
09-17-2006, 07:24 PM
Ljubicic>Roddick

Jimnik
09-17-2006, 08:43 PM
Ljubicic>Roddick
Nobody is denying that Ljubicic is taller than Roddick. :p

Action Jackson
09-17-2006, 08:47 PM
Rather the inverse of Nadal who does well outside the USA, but has never lived up to his number 2 position in the USA.

However, Roddick's grand slam record outside the USA is not that bad for a player ranked behind Federer and Nadal. In 12 grand slam outside US from 2003 he has reached 2 finals, 3 semi-finals and 1 quarter final. Excluding Federer and Nadal how many others have done better in the 3 grand slams outside USA?

Has Nadal been a top player for 3 years at least? Taking Roddick from 2003-2006 and as for Nadal, he has won a TMS in North America and has made a final in one of those.

If you are going to use the two, then make it in a similar timeframe. We are talking about elite players, I mean Hewitt, Muster, Moya and Corretja those last 3 won TMS events out of Europe.

robinhood
09-17-2006, 08:54 PM
Nobody is denying that Ljubicic is taller than Roddick. :p

:lol:

Deboogle!.
09-17-2006, 09:00 PM
But how many of those wins came when the players were actually IN the top 10?Why are top 10 wins the end all and be all of life? Wouldn't you admit that some of Andy's wins this summer over the likes of Murray, Gonzo (several times), and Hewitt are basically as good as top 10 wins? Aren't those all far more impressive than if he had given Robredo another beatdown?

Sometimes beating the guy who beat all the top players is just as good, if not better, a win. To say that guys like Ferrero in Cincy or Youzhny in the USO or Murray and Gonzo in Cincy weren't playing top tennis and aren't as good as a top 10 win is being very arbitrary, IMO. I think the quality of the win should matter, not what the person happens to have been ranked that week. When Andy beat Gonzo handily at Queens, Gonzo was ranked 11, he was in the top 10 the very next week. Is anyone going to say that it wasn't a good win, just because the guy was in the top 10 the very NEXT week?

And MarieS, Ljubicic's achievement's aren't relevant, but when the thread starter starts a thread purely to denigrate someone's achievements, when the reality is that their favorite is pretty much no better, it certainly does make the thread suspect, just like everyone started bringing up Maria and Andy in that idiot's thread about Ancic. It makes a person look pretty hypocritical when they start a thread insulting someone else but their fave is no better.

It's not like Ljubicic's record in actual tournaments against Top 10ers is stellar this year, yet he's apparently playing as well as he ever has. And by contrast, Andy has had the WORST year of his career by far, so sure, that's a really logical comparison - let's compare one guy at his best to one guy at his worst and say the guy at his best is better, that's a big stretch :haha:

DrJules
09-17-2006, 09:22 PM
Andy has had the WORST year of his career by far

Apart from 2003/4 this is Roddick's 3rd best year. 1GS final and master series win.

Deboogle!.
09-17-2006, 09:27 PM
Apart from 2003/4 this is Roddick's 3rd best year. 1GS final and master series win.He's had three good tournaments, but had a truly awful Jan-July, and was playing the worst tennis of his career. If we only count the times a player plays well, I don't think that quite works ;) All the good players' record over other top players would look much better if we only count the times they were playing well :p

To highlight my previous point, when James beat Andy in Indy, that wasn't a top 10 win, but wouldn't most people here consider that one of James's best wins? :shrug:

bluefork
09-17-2006, 09:32 PM
Why are top 10 wins the end all and be all of life? Wouldn't you admit that some of Andy's wins this summer over the likes of Murray, Gonzo (several times), and Hewitt are basically as good as top 10 wins? Aren't those all far more impressive than if he had given Robredo another beatdown?

No, no. You're right. Top 10 wins aren't always a big deal, and sometimes wins over players outside of the top 10 are more impressive than wins over top 10 players.

But at the same time, rankings are there as indicators of how well a player is playing at that point in his career. My point was just that it's misleading to use the statistic that Roddick has an even record with the no. 2 player in the world when he hasn't played Nadal since Nadal breached the top 10--top 40 actually.

Deboogle!.
09-17-2006, 09:40 PM
But at the same time, rankings are there as indicators of how well a player is playing at that point in his career. My point was just that it's misleading to use the statistic that Roddick has an even record with the no. 2 player in the world when he hasn't played Nadal since Nadal breached the top 10--top 40 actually.Yep, I agree :) But nadal has improved an awful lot. I doubt his results against, say, Robredo, would be all that different as their previous 8 if they were to play today :p

Havok
09-17-2006, 09:44 PM
Roddick, still a teen, beat Kuerten when he was #1 in the world in Montreal.:p Not many teens have done that. Only Gasquet, Murray and Nadal were able to do it since Andy.

Havok
09-17-2006, 09:50 PM
I believe Grosjean was ranked in 20s. It's possible that he was seeded in top 10 by Wimbledon.

So far, Roodick has beaten only one top 10 player in GS tournaments(Ferrero).
I hate when people base things JUST on rankings. If some player beats STEPANEK in a slam just because he's top 10 all of a sudden that's a big win? PLEASE it's a shitty win. Roddick has beaten PLENTY of in form players in slams, as well as seeded players (and to be seeded you have to be a pretty damn good player to be one of the top 32 in the whole world!) Younes I believe was seeded fairly low but was in insane form when Andy beat him. Hewitt this year at the USO was in a hell of a lot better form than over half of the so-called "top 10" players atm. He beat Henman in straights at the 03 USO (Henman was the only player to beat Andy during the summer stretch). He also beat Nalbandian at that USO (was on the cusp of the top 10 and was sure as hell playing like one!) and Ferrero in the finals. Mind you Andy didn't face many top 10 players period in the slams because, once again, it's not his fault that they bow out early before he even gets a shot at them :o.

A win over a solid player/in form player right now is better than beating the likes of Robredo, Stepanek, Ljubicic and other weird current top 10 players.

Radek Stepanek
09-17-2006, 09:52 PM
I <3 Ivan Ljubicic. He is awesome, and amazing, and croatian, and great, and he will suceed eventually.

J. Corwin
09-17-2006, 09:53 PM
thank god for this thread, i was beginning to think croat became a lover :banana:

Havok
09-17-2006, 09:54 PM
He is already having success on tour. I doubt he'll have a whole lot more success than he currently is having, but he is stringing together two pretty good years compared to his woeful entire career beforehand.

Jimnik
09-17-2006, 09:56 PM
Apart from 2003/4 this is Roddick's 3rd best year. 1GS final and master series win.
But Andy won 5 titles on all 4 surfaces and reached a GS final in 2005.

We can't compare until the year is over. Andy finished with 617pts in the 2005 Race. At the moment he has 434pts in the 2006 Race.

If he wins Madrid, Paris or Shanghai, then maybe we can call this his 3rd best year.

ExpectedWinner
09-17-2006, 09:58 PM
I hate when people base things JUST on rankings. If some player beats STEPANEK in a slam just because he's top 10 all of a sudden that's a big win? PLEASE it's a shitty win. Roddick has beaten PLENTY of in form players in slams, as well as seeded players (and to be seeded you have to be a pretty damn good player to be one of the top 32 in the whole world!) Younes I believe was seeded fairly low but was in insane form when Andy beat him. Hewitt this year at the USO was in a hell of a lot better form than over half of the so-called "top 10" players atm. He beat Henman in straights at the 03 USO (Henman was the only player to beat Andy during the summer stretch). He also beat Nalbandian at that USO (was on the cusp of the top 10 and was sure as hell playing like one!) and Ferrero in the finals. Mind you Andy didn't face many top 10 players period in the slams because, once again, it's not his fault that they bow out early before he even gets a shot at them :o.

A win over a solid player/in form player right now is better than beating the likes of Robredo, Stepanek, Ljubicic and other weird current top 10 players.

I can't bother to read your essay.

I've just pointed out the fact. If the stats are wrong, feel free to correct them.

Melvins
09-17-2006, 09:59 PM
More statistics:

H2H w top 10 in GS:

Aussie Open:
0-1 - With 2 semis and one quarter, Roddick only play with a top 10 once. Hewitt won.

Wimbledon:
0-3 - Who won Federer in Wimbledon since 2003? :ignore:

US Open:
1-2 - Won over Ferrero, lost to Federer (2006 :rolleyes: ) and Hewitt (2001 :rolleyes: ) Note: 1 title, 1 final and 3 quarters.

RG:
0-1 - retirement when after 1-1 in sets and 2-2 in 3rd vs Hewitt (2001).

Do you think that this is relevant? :rolleyes: I think only AO defeat to Hewitt is bad, because in other matchs lost to the Champions.

Apart Gs, Andy have many wins over top 10 like nº 1 Guga in 2001.

P.S.: And many defeats too.

Melvins
09-17-2006, 10:19 PM
Federer top 10 record:
64-31

in 2005:
10-4

Well if Federer not reach the 3 final in clay, Federer record is 10-1. More impressive, no? Do you understand the point?

DrJules
09-17-2006, 10:19 PM
He's had three good tournaments, but had a truly awful Jan-July, and was playing the worst tennis of his career. If we only count the times a player plays well, I don't think that quite works ;) All the good players' record over other top players would look much better if we only count the times they were playing well :p


Oh well.

I think 184 points more this year added to his current 434 race points will equal last years total.

DrJules
09-17-2006, 10:24 PM
But Andy won 5 titles on all 4 surfaces and reached a GS final in 2005.

We can't compare until the year is over. Andy finished with 617pts in the 2005 Race. At the moment he has 434pts in the 2006 Race.

If he wins Madrid, Paris or Shanghai, then maybe we can call this his 3rd best year.

But no master series title. I think the top 3/4 players judge themselves by grand slams and master series titles.

DrJules
09-17-2006, 10:28 PM
A win over a solid player/in form player right now is better than beating the likes of Robredo, Stepanek, Ljubicic and other weird current top 10 players.

I expect to see Robredo and Ljubicic in top 10 next year. Considering Robredo won a master series this year, a rarity if not Federer or Nadal, then I not sure why he is a weird top 10 player.

robinhood
09-17-2006, 10:36 PM
Federer top 10 record:
64-31

in 2005:
10-4

Well if Federer not reach the 3 final in clay, Federer record is 10-1. More impressive, no? Do you understand the point?

If Federer did not reach those finals, he likely would've lost to other top 10ers like Nalbandian in Rome and RG semis, so 10-1 cannot be totally assumed.

Deboogle!.
09-17-2006, 10:42 PM
Oh well.

I think 184 points more this year added to his current 434 race points will equal last years total.Even if he can have a great last 1/3 to the year or so, it would not erase the fact that his Jan-July were the worst months of his career. :) as of now, andy has had 3 good tourneys where he has an 0-2 record against top 10ers and a whole bunch of really bad tourneys where he has practically no good wins at all. I'm just saying when someone is having a rough go, I wouldn't expect him to have many top wins, that's all. if andy can accumulate that many points in his final few tourneys of the year and still not beat a top 10 player, then we can revisit this, but I don't think that'll be possible. He's got like 4 regular tourneys left, where getting 184 points would be quite difficult unless he has real good runs in Madrid and Paris (which would probably require a top 10 win), and if he doesn't do it there, then he'd have to get points at TMC which would require a top 10 win....so....

World Beater
09-17-2006, 11:27 PM
well its crunch time for ljubicic...he will be out of the top5 if he cant defend his points...this years draws are going to be more stacked than last year...not too many are injured i believe this year.

i hope blake, ancic, and baghdatis make the top 8...i dont see robredo doing anything in shanghai

njnetswill
09-17-2006, 11:39 PM
Roddick's top ten stats are awful.

Then again, so are most of the guys in the top ten outside of Nadal and Federer.

Whistleway
09-17-2006, 11:47 PM
Roddick's top ten stats are awful.

Then again, so are most of the guys in the top ten outside of Nadal and Federer.

but then you have to understand that he has been #1 and been consistently in the top for 3+ years. Not many players can claim that.

Havok
09-17-2006, 11:53 PM
Also please note, Roddick's "bad" results outside of the USA has a ton to do with surface. Every clay court event (with the exception of Houston) is in Europe; Roddick's WORST surface so obviously it hinders his "stats". HEes made the finals of Wimbledon 2 straight times and got to the semis in 03. This year sucked because he wasn't even half the player he used to be. He also has 2 semis at the AO as well as a qf finish. He has 2 semis at Paris TMS as well. Also everytime he qualified for the TMC and participated in it, it was currently held in the US so that also kept him from getting better wins/stats outside of the USA. If more hardcourt events were played around the world, I can guarantee you that Andy would do a hell of alot beter worldwide. Though when there's a HC event in Europe, there is also another one held in the USA so obviously he plays the American ones, it's only logical.

Stats are simply numbers and can convey what the thread starter wants you to believe, but you need to break them down and get behind the numbers and explain them/the reasons behind them to REALLY understand it and to know that it's being twisted, but from croat12345678910 that was a given. You can easil do the same things to pretty much every single player (with the exception of Federer and Nadal) especially his beloved Ljubicic :tape:.

Havok
09-17-2006, 11:56 PM
I expect to see Robredo and Ljubicic in top 10 next year. Considering Robredo won a master series this year, a rarity if not Federer or Nadal, then I not sure why he is a weird top 10 player.
Let's face it a ton of the current top 10 are there because Safin has been injured for some time now, Agassi's age/body finally caught up with him, Hewitt had a baby and was in a funk for a while as well as Roddick being in a huge funk as well. Obviously some of the current top 10 will still be there come this time next year but you won't be seeing Ljubicic ranked that high as well as Robredo. You'll have a handful of them fighting desperately to stay inside the top 10 since it seems that Roddick is back in good form, and Hewitt seems to be on the rise as well as a bunch of young guns finding their form quickly.

njnetswill
09-17-2006, 11:58 PM
but then you have to understand that he has been #1 and been consistently in the top for 3+ years. Not many players can claim that.

very true. just one of the many reason why I dislike Roddick so much. :p

Himura
09-18-2006, 02:00 AM
If you are from Croatia why not switch to MMA Forum and post crap there, I heard Cro Cop won Pride....you may have a shot there.

Melvins
09-18-2006, 02:35 AM
If Federer did not reach those finals, he likely would've lost to other top 10ers like Nalbandian in Rome and RG semis, so 10-1 cannot be totally assumed.

When I talk about finals, i talk about a good tournament and semis in Rome and RG is good. I just want to explain that is better reach semis and finals and lost to top 10 than lost in 1st round or 2nd round to a player out top 50.

Bad record of Roddick in Grand Slam is because he reach many times semis and finals. So, i think that it's stupid only see statistics without a real vision of thing.

tangerine_dream
09-18-2006, 03:00 AM
As many have said before, tennis is a game of match-ups and to use just the rankings as the whole basis for your argument is misleading. You can't tell me that Hewitt (15), Gonzo (13), and Murray (17) are not dangerous opponents for Roddick, it doesn't matter what their rank is.

And even though Hewitt is going through his own bit of a slump, he's still considered a top player and he seemed to be playing like his normal intense self at USO when Roddick took him out.

princediablo
09-18-2006, 03:27 AM
But no master series title. I think the top 3/4 players judge themselves by grand slams and master series titles.


SINGLES CAREER TITLES (21): 2001--Atlanta, Houston, Washington; 2002--Houston, Memphis; 2003--Cincinnati TMS, Indianapolis, London / Queen's Club, Montreal / Toronto, St. Poelten, US Open; 2004--Indianapolis, London / Queen's Club, Miami AMS, San Jose; 2005--Houston, London / Queen's Club, Lyon, San Jose, Washington; 2006--ATP Masters Series Cincinnati

robinhood
09-18-2006, 03:30 AM
SINGLES CAREER TITLES (21): 2001--Atlanta, Houston, Washington; 2002--Houston, Memphis; 2003--Cincinnati TMS, Indianapolis, London / Queen's Club, Montreal / Toronto, St. Poelten, US Open; 2004--Indianapolis, London / Queen's Club, Miami AMS, San Jose; 2005--Houston, London / Queen's Club, Lyon, San Jose, Washington; 2006--ATP Masters Series Cincinnati

DrJules meant the 2005 season when Roddick didn't win any big one.

Action Jackson
09-18-2006, 06:17 AM
Roddick's game is good and powerful enough to do well indoors on a consistent basis, so he is more than capable of challenging in Madrid and Paris.

Merton
09-18-2006, 06:35 AM
I think that Andy has underperformed indoors, he should have done better given his game. I am not sure this is because he plays better in North America. For example, he lost to Enquist and Spadea during the spring hard court season of 2004, at a time he was #2. We will see how he does this year.

ExpectedWinner
09-18-2006, 07:11 AM
Number of wins over top 10 players (GS tournaments only)

Fed- 21
Nadal-3 (all on clay; 2 over Fed)
Roddick-1 (Ferrero)
Ivan-0
Davydenko-3
Robredo-3
Nalbandian-4 (2 over Fed in 2003)
Blake-1 (Nadal)
Baghdatis-4
Ancic-3
Haas-0

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agassi (from 1999 to 2006)-10
Hewitt-8
Moya-5
Safin-11

Number of wins over players ranked 11-25 (GS tournaments only)

Fed-12
Nadal-6
Roddick-15
Ivan-1
Davydenko-8
Robredo-4
Nalbandian-12
Baghdatis-4
Blake-3
Ancic-4
Haas-8

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agassi (from 1999 to 2006)-13
Moya-8
Hewitt-15
Safin-9

* Wins by retirement are not included

World Beater
09-18-2006, 07:21 AM
yeah if they had a quality point system or sth where pts were awarded depening on the rank of player you beat, nadal and roddick would be utter &HIt.

nadal would trail fed by another 138729372904 pts.

tangerine_dream
09-18-2006, 06:11 PM
Roddick is a homer and does well in the big tournaments of North America and since he is meant to be among the elite, then his success rate at bigger events outside of North America should be better than it is. This pretty much what croat is attempting to point out or I assume that.

Mikhail Youzhny: "Some say Roddick is hugely over-rated, that he has only a big serve, but I regard him as one of the top players. It's true that in the past he could not win anywhere else but in the U.S., but he has matured a lot in recent years. He has also improved his baseline play, his backhand has got better too, so he is a complete player now. He is a former world number one and you don't become number one for nothing."

:angel:

Deboogle!.
09-18-2006, 06:15 PM
ExpectedWinner, thanks for that crackerjack research!

Let me get this straight. Ljubicic has beaten 0 top ten players in slams and only 1 top 25 player in a slam, and that's the fewest of the whole top 10, and the thread starter is a huge ljubicic fan and is berating Andy's accomplishments? wow, that's gold. :lol:

Havok
09-18-2006, 06:39 PM
ExpectedWinner, thanks for that crackerjack research!

Let me get this straight. Ljubicic has beaten 0 top ten players in slams and only 1 top 25 player in a slam, and that's the fewest of the whole top 10, and the thread starter is a huge ljubicic fan and is berating Andy's accomplishments? wow, that's gold. :lol:
It's better than gold. It's cheetos!

Deboogle!.
09-18-2006, 06:44 PM
It's better than gold. It's cheetos!OH DEATH :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

liptea
09-18-2006, 07:50 PM
What about when he beat Coria to win the Nasdaq a couple years back? I think Coria was top 5 at least.


edit: In fact he was #3 and he also beat Moya who was #5 and he has beaten Moya a bunch of other times when he was ranked well, and what about all of his wins in the tennis Masters Championship?

YEAH! HOW ABOUT THAT?

Havok
09-18-2006, 11:46 PM
Number of wins over top 10 players (GS tournaments only)

Fed- 21
Nadal-3 (all on clay; 2 over Fed)
Roddick-1 (Ferrero)
Ivan-0
Davydenko-3
Robredo-3
Nalbandian-4 (2 over Fed in 2003)
Blake-1 (Nadal)
Baghdatis-4
Ancic-3
Haas-0

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agassi (from 1999 to 2006)-10
Hewitt-8
Moya-5
Safin-11

Number of wins over players ranked 11-25 (GS tournaments only)

Fed-12
Nadal-6
Roddick-15
Ivan-1
Davydenko-8
Robredo-4
Nalbandian-12
Baghdatis-4
Blake-3
Ancic-4
Haas-8

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agassi (from 1999 to 2006)-13
Moya-8
Hewitt-15
Safin-9
Holy shit please don't tell me that Ivan's ONLY top 20 win at a Slam came from Roddick when he was forced to retire in the second set of their 2r encounter at the Aussie Open way back in 2002.:o

Jogy
09-19-2006, 01:33 AM
Roddick is a homer and does well in the big tournaments of North America and since he is meant to be among the elite, then his success rate at bigger events outside of North America should be better than it is. This pretty much what croat is attempting to point out or I assume that.
If you think Roddick's record outside of USA is bad with GS semis at AO and two straight finals at Wimbledon, you do not have much reason to believe this.


And BTW: I admit, I'm a hater too! :) :angel: but for different players :p

Deboogle!.
09-19-2006, 01:39 AM
Holy shit please don't tell me that Ivan's ONLY top 20 win at a Slam came from Roddick when he was forced to retire in the second set of their 2r encounter at the Aussie Open way back in 2002.:oWell that was a top 20 win as Andy was 15 at the time, so either Expected Winner missed something, or Ljubicic's only top 25 win in a slam was by retirement.

Havok
09-19-2006, 04:33 AM
Well I took the liberty of double checking this myself and credit to Ljubicic, he did defeat Tojo in the round of 16 at the AO this year, so he's a legend now :worship:.

Action Jackson
09-19-2006, 04:54 AM
If you think Roddick's record outside of USA is bad with GS semis at AO and two straight finals at Wimbledon, you do not have much reason to believe this.

And BTW: I admit, I'm a hater too! :) :angel: but for different players :p

Wb big man you were missed. Fair points raised, this is true, but at the same time I'd like to see him win a big event out of North America.

Havok
09-19-2006, 05:22 AM
The more Andy plays a fuller indoor schedule, the better his chances are at winning those biggies outside of NA. The problem is that by the tine indoor season comes along he's played so much that he only plays a handful of events not to tire himself out and be able to finish the season injury free. With the lack of top players at last year's final TMS events he could have easily picked up a TMS (especially at Paris) but the injury bug nipped him in the butt. There's no doubt in my mind that he will eventually win Madrid/Paris because it's a pretty much known fact that Roger will only participate in one of them (if at that) and Nadal is still a questionmark on quick surfaces. Though if he opts for only playing one (his clay schedule destroys him and he needs time to recover from all that wining/grinding) he'll only play Madrid. Plus Paris is better for Andy as it's quicker (he had 2 NICE shots at that title, but screwed up vs Henman in 03 semis and his shoulder started hurting at last year's event and forced him out for the rest of the season).

Action Jackson
09-19-2006, 05:51 AM
As I said before Naldo, Roddick has the potential to be an indoor monster with his game and he could easily win Madrid or Paris if he plays to what he is capable of, at the same time as you pointed out, his year/schedule isn't geared around to these particular events. It's like yeah I will play them, and see what happens.

With Madrid there is the altitude, though it's only minimal and as for Bercy, anything can happen at that event, but there are some very good indoor players around, but if all goes well he could win it there.

ExpectedWinner
09-19-2006, 06:59 AM
Well that was a top 20 win as Andy was 15 at the time, so either Expected Winner missed something, or Ljubicic's only top 25 win in a slam was by retirement.

Wins by retirement are not included into my list.

Btw, I recall only two of them: Roddick against Ivan and Pavel against Fed.

Deboogle!.
09-19-2006, 03:33 PM
Wins by retirement are not included into my list.

Btw, I recall only two of them: Roddick against Ivan and Pavel against Fed.ok cool thanks for clarifying :yeah:

alfonsojose
09-19-2006, 04:08 PM
ivan's awesome :)

he's has beaten top players on every surface and just about every region where he has played. he's not an ego driven player who disrespects opponents on court and manipulates the crowd every chance he gets :)
Andy is banging Sprem :p

alfonsojose
09-19-2006, 04:12 PM
Wb big man you were missed. Fair points raised, this is true, but at the same time I'd like to see him win a big event out of North America.
Queen's club is a strong event :shrug:

Action Jackson
09-19-2006, 04:53 PM
Queen's club is a strong event :shrug:

Slams well he has a chance to win 2 of those outside of North America and that's the same for the TMS events Madrid and Bercy and whenever the TMC is away from North America, those are the big ones.

Broomie
09-27-2006, 08:34 AM
Number of wins over top 10 players (GS tournaments only)

Fed- 21
Nadal-3 (all on clay; 2 over Fed)
Roddick-1 (Ferrero)
Ivan-0
Davydenko-3
Robredo-3
Nalbandian-4 (2 over Fed in 2003)
Blake-1 (Nadal)
Baghdatis-4
Ancic-3
Haas-0

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agassi (from 1999 to 2006)-10
Hewitt-8
Moya-5
Safin-11

Number of wins over players ranked 11-25 (GS tournaments only)

Fed-12
Nadal-6
Roddick-15
Ivan-1
Davydenko-8
Robredo-4
Nalbandian-12
Baghdatis-4
Blake-3
Ancic-4
Haas-8

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agassi (from 1999 to 2006)-13
Moya-8
Hewitt-15
Safin-9

* Wins by retirement are not included
This was not the subject of this discussion, but I had to react to marat's stats. :worship:
I guess he really is the top 10 killer (2nd behind Fed). Some may say he had a longer career, but let's not forget 2 and a half season of injuries :eek:
And this is just slams! People always expect marat to lose, saying he's an oaf, but guess who has the best stats :cool:

When you look at Ivan and Blake stats you've got to wonder: how are they going to win a slam; are we supposed to gift them with it? (One can't even call me a hater, I don't have anything against them)

its.like.that
09-27-2006, 11:32 AM
No need to be a hater.

Every individual is unique and has different abilities.

Rogiman
09-27-2006, 11:39 AM
No need to be a hater.

Every individual is unique and has different abilities.
:lol: I take it you received a warning from the Mods...

its.like.that
10-06-2006, 10:00 AM
:lol: I take it you received a warning from the Mods...

Unfortunately you are wrong.

I am simply a reformed individual enjoying each day as it comes.

:wavey:

JMG
10-06-2006, 10:27 AM
Unfortunately you are wrong.

I am simply a reformed individual enjoying each day as it comes.

:wavey:

:eek:

Horatio Caine
10-06-2006, 12:41 PM
Unfortunately you are wrong.

I am simply a reformed individual enjoying each day as it comes.

:wavey:

:bs: :haha:

Have you been wanking too much? :lol: