Goran Ivanisevic believes Andy Murray is a more talented player than Rafael [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Goran Ivanisevic believes Andy Murray is a more talented player than Rafael

WhataQT
06-18-2006, 06:18 AM
http://sport.guardian.co.uk/tennis/story/0,,1800366,00.html

Excerpt from a Guardian Unlimiited article:

Goran on Andy Murray

Goran Ivanisevic believes Andy Murray is a more talented player than the world number two, Rafael Nadal, and says he could help the coachless young Scot prepare for this year's Wimbledon.

Ivanisevic says he does not want the post Murray has been seeking to fill since he sacked his coach, Mark Petchey, last April. 'I wouldn't coach anybody,' says Ivanisevic, 'but if he asked me to help him, why not? To practise with him, to hit with him, to pass on my experience... I know something about playing tennis on grass.'

Ivanisevic has seen Murray play many times. He is impressed. 'I like the way he plays, I like his mentality.' He thinks it is surprising, though, that Murray has now gone more than two months without a coach, during which time he has won only two matches in six tournaments, his most recent first-round exit being at the Stella Artois tournament in London last week.

Having a coach in the build-up to Wimbledon is particularly important, Ivanisevic thinks. 'I'm surprised, very surprised that he hasn't taken anybody for these next three weeks. It's very hard to find a good coach, but there are a lot of good ex-players who could help him on grass.

'He's young and whoever he gets eventually to coach him must be able to tell him about tennis and also about life, how to behave, how to do a lot of things,' says Ivanisevic, who thinks criticism of the 19-year-old Murray's sometimes surly behaviour and level of fitness, blamed for his physical problems, is unreasonable.

'It's easy to criticise,' says Ivanisevic. 'In Britain, as soon as you do something good and then start to play a little better they give you shit. He's young and is going to have ups and downs. When someone's not playing too well you can find a hundred mistakes, but when he's playing good he's perfect. It's very easy to find mistakes.'

The idea that Nadal, 20, who retained the French Open title last Sunday, has set an example to other emerging players about the amount of training they should put in - the Spaniard is renowned for working extremely hard away from competition - is not one to which Ivanisevic subscribes.

He says: 'Nadal is Nadal; Murray has a different game. Murray's more talented, he has a better serve, he's different. Maybe someone needs one hour to do something that Nadal needs five hours to do. Not everyone practises the same. They have completely different games.

'So I think Murray should find a good coach who could teach him how to play - when to come in, when to stay back. He has a lot of things to improve, but I like him, I like the way he plays. And it's good that you have a new player coming after Tim. You don't have to wait another 50 years as you did for Tim.'

prima donna
06-18-2006, 06:20 AM
More Nadal bashing. Hahaha.

ufokart
06-18-2006, 06:23 AM
Well, we all know Goran is a heavy vodka drinker :haha:

Allez
06-18-2006, 06:26 AM
Better serve ???? I don't think so. Perhaps Goran meant to say that Andy's game is more "layered" than Nadals. English is not his first language so I think he can be forgiven for such an outrageous remark straight after Nadal's record setting exploits at the French no less :eek: :eek: :eek: ...

Yasmine
06-18-2006, 08:21 AM
:cuckoo: Goran obviously said that to please the british media :rolleyes:

Allez
06-18-2006, 08:34 AM
Perhaps he's hoping for another wild card for Wimbledon :shrug: He could still do some damage, no ?

ezekiel
06-18-2006, 08:46 AM
:cuckoo: Goran obviously said that to please the british media :rolleyes:

He says Ancic is more talented as well so maybe he just doesn't think much of Nadal for whatever reason. Ever since Fed started it, it seems popular to bash Nadal even when he just did his job and handled success marvelously

Allez
06-18-2006, 08:53 AM
He says Ancic is more talented as well so maybe he just doesn't think much of Nadal for whatever reason. Ever since Fed started it, it seems popular to bash Nadal even when he just did his job and handled success marvelously
What did Fed start ?

propi
06-18-2006, 10:00 AM
Well, he's entitled to give his own opinion :)
Goran was great fun to see, I guess he still wants to be funny in his after tennis life :D
But he's dealing OK with the fact that Rafa at 20 has already achieved more than him in his career :D

scoobs
06-18-2006, 10:02 AM
Let's see - what else can we hold Roger responsible for?

Didn't he assassinate Archduke Franz Ferdinand and start World War I?

Honestly - people seem to think that everyone else are sheep, just waiting for Roger to express an opinion and then they jump obediently into line.

s.m.
06-18-2006, 10:34 AM
More Nadal bashing. Hahaha.

how is goran bashing nadal?
i just don´t get mindset of you people
goran said murray has more talent

is he saying murray is the better player?
no

is he saying murray will be a better player?
no

is he saying that nadal is bad?
no

there is so much malice on this forum that it´s fucking unbelievable sometimes
the fact that murray has more talent dosen´t mean anything by itself
and murray i thnk has more talent than nadal
or how allez put it, more layered game
it´s just that nadal in mentally out there
he is the best an he´s so young
and he´s working on his game, and he´s the real deal

i think goran is trying to say how good murray can be, and you are all focusing on one segment without the real context
after all goran had much more talent than sampras and agaasi so what :(
count the slams, it dosen´t mean a thing

s.m.
06-18-2006, 10:37 AM
:cuckoo: Goran obviously said that to please the british media :rolleyes:

lol
in the same article he basically said that british media are full of shit
your logic is second to none :worship:

Exodus
06-18-2006, 10:38 AM
what goran says is true there are alot of players (the younger generation) that are much more talented than nadal like berdych and djokovic

Halba
06-18-2006, 10:59 AM
joker-vich and bird-man u kiddin>???

if they were so 'talented' then you would think they would be going deeper in majors. ...but they're not..nadal is a rare talent

s.m.
06-18-2006, 11:05 AM
joker-vich and bird-man u kiddin>???

if they were so 'talented' then you would think they would be going deeper in majors. ...but they're not..nadal is a rare talent

yes they would if only talent played a role
but it dosen´t
tennis is more than that

Yasmine
06-18-2006, 11:05 AM
lol
in the same article he basically said that british media are full of shit
your logic is second to none :worship:
yet he still gives interview for them :scratch:

s.m.
06-18-2006, 11:09 AM
yet he still gives interview for them :scratch:

:rolleyes:

The Undertaker
06-18-2006, 11:21 AM
Why you guys can`t accept that not every succesful youngster is talented. Talent is one thing, and hard work is other. Rafael Nadal is one of hardest workers in sports ever, but he is not particularly talented.

revolution
06-18-2006, 12:17 PM
LOL, Goran sure likes to please the BBC and the other British media.

Nadal would beat Andy on grass IMO.

ezekiel
06-18-2006, 12:18 PM
What did Fed start ?

Fed started bashing Nadal's talent , one dimensional etc, and his many sycophants just follow the leader blindly

ezekiel
06-18-2006, 12:24 PM
Why you guys can`t accept that not every succesful youngster is talented. Talent is one thing, and hard work is other. Rafael Nadal is one of hardest workers in sports ever, but he is not particularly talented.

that's fine to believe but all the true champions are hard workers. Talent is really only 50% of success and I am being generous to talent. It's not what you got , it's what you do with it. It's not where you are it's where you are going

oz_boz
06-18-2006, 12:46 PM
Nadal is not particularly talented, and Ivanisevic would have been a nobody without his backhand.

thrust
06-18-2006, 12:58 PM
I think Goran is looking for a job.

Viken01
06-18-2006, 01:14 PM
:haha:

Raul-Lopez
06-18-2006, 01:18 PM
Jaja Nadal not talented but he win because is a hard worker etc etc Stupid reasons VERY stupid reasons . Nadal is very very talent... replay the final against federer and you will see passing shots and impressives shots .

By the way we can put 4 bodybuilders or 4 marathon guys and would be the 1 , 2 , 3 and 4 of the world, because they are very hardworkers and have great bodys...

oneandonlyhsn
06-18-2006, 01:22 PM
Goran always speaks his mind, I dont agree with him about Murray but IMO Berdych, Djokovic and Gasquet have way more talent than Nadal.

However if talent was everything than Safin would have a multitude of slams

Raquel
06-18-2006, 01:29 PM
'It's easy to criticise,' says Ivanisevic. 'In Britain, as soon as you do something good and then start to play a little better they give you shit. He's young and is going to have ups and downs. When someone's not playing too well you can find a hundred mistakes, but when he's playing good he's perfect. It's very easy to find mistakes.'

Well said Goran :yeah: It's not just the press who criticise easily either. People on here are often really quick to criticise the young players especially over minor things.

Neverstopfightin
06-18-2006, 02:40 PM
In these threads i always see the same mistake , people don't know what the word " talent " actually means :shrug:

People use this word as a synonym of technique .

According to the great part of people a talented player is who has great technique and hits a lot of winners and has a lot of weapons to win points.

But talent doesn't mean that , the talent is the ability of making a task .

Hewitt and Nadal are very talented players not being technical players because they have the ability of playing tennis better than another players because they won more matches than another players with better shots but with worse mental strength , worse physical condition and worse tactical sense ....

The tennis is a lot things more than just hitting winners , and the best player is who has a better combo of technique , physical condition , mental condition and tactical ability . A player is the sum of those aspects , not only how beatilful technique the player has or how beatiful playstyle he has.

If you use the word talent as technique not only Murray , Gasquet , Djokovic , Berdych , Baghdatis are better players than Nadal , plus there are a lot of players in the top 100 more talented than Nadal, for example : Rochus , Malisse , PHM , Robredo ..... and i could post a lot of more names

Technique is only one of the several aspects of the game.

Using the correct meaning of the word talent , in my opinion it's clear Nadal is one of the 20 best innate talents in tennis ever and in this generation only Federer is above him.

There is also a deceptive perception about Nadal is a guy who has reached the top of tennis thanks for he's a hard-worker and he practises 10 hours in a day :lol:

Nadal practises the same hours than the average , he has never been a player who practises amazing amount of hours during a day .

Players like Davydenko or Ferrer are players who practise a hell of hours during a day , Nadal isn't that kind of guys because his innate talent lets him to train the average hours that a normal ATP player trains.

I would remember to all that people who doubt about Nadal's innate talent i would recommend them to consult his results since he was a boy and they will see that together with Gasquet they were the best two players of the world in almost all the categories and levels and i can assure Nadal didn't win the matches because of his physique , he won because he has always been an innate talent born to make history , but also Federer was born to make history and a better history than him :p .


By the way , Murray has simply the ups and downs of a young player, he has a great talent and will be a great player . He only needs time like all the young players .

Horatio Caine
06-18-2006, 02:43 PM
Murray is more talented than Nadal...but he is nowhere near as good as him. Nadal relies mainly on excellent fitness...that is it.

Rafa = Fed Killa
06-18-2006, 04:52 PM
Ivanisevich and Lubicic are two professional "Fedtards".

Why does this 20 year keep beating our god and how come he has achieved so much more that we ever will.

Sad, when old losers turn on successful young people.

Jimnik
06-18-2006, 04:56 PM
I think Goran is talking about grass tennis.

Heaven and Hell
06-18-2006, 05:00 PM
I dont think Nadal is more talented than Ancic either, or Gasquet, or Murray....
But none of them can be anywhere close to the great ROGER:worship::).

Apemant
06-18-2006, 05:10 PM
Ivanisevich and Lubicic are two professional "Fedtards".

Why does this 20 year keep beating our god and how come he has achieved so much more that we ever will.

Sad, when old losers turn on successful young people.

If I'm not mistaken, both of them are older than Federer as well.

If your point had any sense, then they would turn on Fed as well, because he is also way more successful than them, right?

But of course, your point doesn't make any sense. It is just a typical reaction of a fan whose feelings have been hurt.

yuffchen
06-18-2006, 05:15 PM
I think Goran is talking about grass tennis.

Yeah I think so too. I don't believe that Andy is better than Rafa on all surfaces. Maybe only on grass.

revolution
06-18-2006, 06:00 PM
Yeah I think so too. I don't believe that Andy is better than Rafa on all surfaces. Maybe only on grass.

At their current level Nadal on grass would overpower and outhit Andy from the baseline- he is physically far stronger.

Metis
06-18-2006, 06:19 PM
I don't understand why people attach so much importance to talent. Talent is nothing without hard work. It is just a gift of nature. Mozart was probably the most talented musical genius of all time but without spending his entire childhood and adolescence working arduously he wouldn't have produced half as much as he did. Personally, I have more respect for people who reach a certain level by working hard than those who have the talent and ability to go even higher but wasted the opportunity.

If Nadal has less talent than Murray or others at the same age that makes his achievements even more impressive in my eyes. :)
I think Nadal fans should be happy about that and not consider it offensive (I agree it is annoying though). On the contrary it makes the other players look even more like underachievers, lazy, etc... :p

trulliscorpion
06-18-2006, 06:26 PM
He said more talented, not better tennis player.

mangoes
06-18-2006, 06:28 PM
Fed started bashing Nadal's talent , one dimensional etc, and his many sycophants just follow the leader blindly


I suggest you read carefully what Federer said in terms of Nadal's one dimensional game. Nadal does have a one dimensional game. Does that make Nadal a bad player?? No..........it's just his style. So spare me the Federer blame crap..........

People have been known to take their swipes at Roger.......even you......who should I blame in my imaginary world for this??? The Answer = No One.........SUCH IS LIFE!!!

Anyway..........back to the topic......

Personally, I think Nadal is more talented than Murray. I think Murray is a smart player but not necessarily a naturally talented tennis player. In my opinion, I think Gasquet, Berdych, and Djokovic are more talented than Nadal. But Nadal's work ethic allows him to close that gap with those three and then surpass them by miles. Only time will tell if any of those guys will be able to catch up with Nadal.............. Or one of the youngsters that we haven't considered will suddenly bloom and catch up with Nadal.

Castafiore
06-18-2006, 07:09 PM
I think it all depends on your viewpoint on what it takes to be a top tennis player and what you take into consideration when talking about talent.

Very often here in MTF, I notice that people talk about "technique" when they are discussing talent and they leave out aspects such as mental strength.
Example: tennis player A is more talented than tennis player B but B is mentally stronger. :confused:
I don't get that. How can you discuss talent and leave out the mind? Isn't that part of "talent"?
Many players have an excellent technique and good shots. Malisse is one of those players. But what seperates a good player from an excellent player is having the right heart and mind + having the right work ethic.

But talking about Nadal's unorthodox tennis technique. I remember watching a DVD with a Nadal match with French comments. One of the two commentators was a tennis coach. He said that he was fascinated by Nadal's technique. It's not what you teach in a tennis academy and yet, it works...so, instead of giving the easy answer you see all too often (e.g. he makes up for his not so excellent technique with fantastic physique,...) he started to analyze Rafa's game.
He explained (during the quiet moments of the match) that he started to watch more of Rafa's matches on DVD, he discussed aspects of his game with other tennis experts and he went talking to Toni Nadal.

This is the main explanation he came up with for Rafa's unorthodox techniques:
When Rafa was a kid, his uncle Toni would explain him a tennis situation: you stand over there, the other player's position is here...now see if you can get the ball to that point.
Uncle Toni explained that Rafa would be able to think it out on his own within two or three attempts. Most other kids need to learn proper techiques and shots to learn how to get the ball where they want it to land but not Rafa: he would have such a great natural instinct that he could figure it out on his own and very fast.

That gave the Nadal team a problem: do you take the normal way and teach him all the proper techniques by the book and risk the loss of depending on that great natural instinct or do you let him follow his own natural instincts and just stick with the basics?

They decided to let Rafa go with his natural instincts and just teach him the techniques he needed to learn (the basics) because they feared that if they taught him all the shots by the book into detail, he would lose his natural instincts for the ball (= focus on the shot selection by the book instead of following his own natural instincts that are fast and accurate).

So, when people are discussing talent and limiting their discussion to "technique" and "shot selection"...I'm often reminded of that explanation by that French tennis coach.

eddie_hyden
06-18-2006, 07:16 PM
I think it all depends on your viewpoint on what it takes to be a top tennis player and what you take into consideration when talking about talent.

Very often here in MTF, I notice that people talk about "technique" when they are discussing talent and they leave out aspects such as mental strength.
Example: tennis player A is more talented than tennis player B but B is mentally stronger. :confused:
I don't get that. How can you discuss talent and leave out the mind? Isn't that part of "talent"?
Many players have an excellent technique and good shots. Malisse is one of those players. But what seperates a good player from an excellent player is having the right heart and mind + having the right work ethic.

But talking about Nadal's unorthodox tennis technique. I remember watching a DVD with a Nadal match with French comments. One of the two commentators was a tennis coach. He said that he was fascinated by Nadal's technique. It's not what you teach in a tennis academy and yet, it works...so, instead of giving the easy answer you see all too often (e.g. he makes up for his not so excellent technique with fantastic physique,...) he started to analyze Rafa's game.
He explained (during the quiet moments of the match) that he started to watch more of Rafa's matches on DVD, he discussed aspects of his game with other tennis experts and he went talking to Toni Nadal.

This is the main explanation he came up with for Rafa's unorthodox techniques:
When Rafa was a kid, his uncle Toni would explain him a tennis situation: you stand over there, the other player's position is here...now see if you can get the ball to that point.
Uncle Toni explained that Rafa would be able to think it out on his own within two or three attempts. Most other kids need to learn proper techiques and shots to learn how to get the ball where they want it to land but not Rafa: he would have such a great natural instinct that he could figure it out on his own and very fast.

That gave the Nadal team a problem: do you take the normal way and teach him all the proper techniques by the book and risk the loss of depending on that great natural instinct or do you let him follow his own natural instincts and just stick with the basics?

They decided to let Rafa go with his natural instincts and just teach him the techniques he needed to learn (the basics) because they feared that if they taught him all the shots by the book into detail, he would lose his natural instincts for the ball (= focus on the shot selection by the book instead of following his own natural instincts that are fast and accurate).

So, when people are discussing talent and limiting their discussion to "technique" and "shot selection"...I'm often reminded of that explanation by that French tennis coach.


thank u, that's...enlightening :worship:

oschemi
06-18-2006, 07:27 PM
I think it all depends on your viewpoint on what it takes to be a top tennis player and what you take into consideration when talking about talent.

Very often here in MTF, I notice that people talk about "technique" when they are discussing talent and they leave out aspects such as mental strength.
Example: tennis player A is more talented than tennis player B but B is mentally stronger. :confused:
I don't get that. How can you discuss talent and leave out the mind? Isn't that part of "talent"?
Many players have an excellent technique and good shots. Malisse is one of those players. But what seperates a good player from an excellent player is having the right heart and mind + having the right work ethic.

But talking about Nadal's unorthodox tennis technique. I remember watching a DVD with a Nadal match with French comments. One of the two commentators was a tennis coach. He said that he was fascinated by Nadal's technique. It's not what you teach in a tennis academy and yet, it works...so, instead of giving the easy answer you see all too often (e.g. he makes up for his not so excellent technique with fantastic physique,...) he started to analyze Rafa's game.
He explained (during the quiet moments of the match) that he started to watch more of Rafa's matches on DVD, he discussed aspects of his game with other tennis experts and he went talking to Toni Nadal.

This is the main explanation he came up with for Rafa's unorthodox techniques:
When Rafa was a kid, his uncle Toni would explain him a tennis situation: you stand over there, the other player's position is here...now see if you can get the ball to that point.
Uncle Toni explained that Rafa would be able to think it out on his own within two or three attempts. Most other kids need to learn proper techiques and shots to learn how to get the ball where they want it to land but not Rafa: he would have such a great natural instinct that he could figure it out on his own and very fast.

That gave the Nadal team a problem: do you take the normal way and teach him all the proper techniques by the book and risk the loss of depending on that great natural instinct or do you let him follow his own natural instincts and just stick with the basics?

They decided to let Rafa go with his natural instincts and just teach him the techniques he needed to learn (the basics) because they feared that if they taught him all the shots by the book into detail, he would lose his natural instincts for the ball (= focus on the shot selection by the book instead of following his own natural instincts that are fast and accurate).

So, when people are discussing talent and limiting their discussion to "technique" and "shot selection"...I'm often reminded of that explanation by that French tennis coach.


I still refuse to believe that these other youngsters are more talented than Nadal. I have watched a lot of Nadal and Baggy, Berdych, Gasquet matches and Nadal's technique and shot making is nothing short of amazing. Then add his athleticism and mental strenght, we have the player we know today. This is my honest opinion.

elang
06-18-2006, 07:30 PM
I guess the question is : How do you define talent?

Some people define talent as hitting unbelievable shots while some people define talent as the potential to win majors.

MariaV
06-18-2006, 07:39 PM
that's fine to believe but all the true champions are hard workers. Talent is really only 50% of success and I am being generous to talent. It's not what you got , it's what you do with it. It's not where you are it's where you are going
So true. :yeah:

mangoes
06-18-2006, 08:03 PM
I think it all depends on your viewpoint on what it takes to be a top tennis player and what you take into consideration when talking about talent.

Very often here in MTF, I notice that people talk about "technique" when they are discussing talent and they leave out aspects such as mental strength.
Example: tennis player A is more talented than tennis player B but B is mentally stronger. :confused:
I don't get that. How can you discuss talent and leave out the mind? Isn't that part of "talent"?
Many players have an excellent technique and good shots. Malisse is one of those players. But what seperates a good player from an excellent player is having the right heart and mind + having the right work ethic.

But talking about Nadal's unorthodox tennis technique. I remember watching a DVD with a Nadal match with French comments. One of the two commentators was a tennis coach. He said that he was fascinated by Nadal's technique. It's not what you teach in a tennis academy and yet, it works...so, instead of giving the easy answer you see all too often (e.g. he makes up for his not so excellent technique with fantastic physique,...) he started to analyze Rafa's game.
He explained (during the quiet moments of the match) that he started to watch more of Rafa's matches on DVD, he discussed aspects of his game with other tennis experts and he went talking to Toni Nadal.

This is the main explanation he came up with for Rafa's unorthodox techniques:
When Rafa was a kid, his uncle Toni would explain him a tennis situation: you stand over there, the other player's position is here...now see if you can get the ball to that point.
Uncle Toni explained that Rafa would be able to think it out on his own within two or three attempts. Most other kids need to learn proper techiques and shots to learn how to get the ball where they want it to land but not Rafa: he would have such a great natural instinct that he could figure it out on his own and very fast.

That gave the Nadal team a problem: do you take the normal way and teach him all the proper techniques by the book and risk the loss of depending on that great natural instinct or do you let him follow his own natural instincts and just stick with the basics?

They decided to let Rafa go with his natural instincts and just teach him the techniques he needed to learn (the basics) because they feared that if they taught him all the shots by the book into detail, he would lose his natural instincts for the ball (= focus on the shot selection by the book instead of following his own natural instincts that are fast and accurate).

So, when people are discussing talent and limiting their discussion to "technique" and "shot selection"...I'm often reminded of that explanation by that French tennis coach.

Talent does not equal top tennis player, in my opinion.

Personally, I do not consider mental strength a talent (some will agree, some will disagree). It's an essential ingredient if one wants to be a success or a top tennis player. I think when one begins to discuss the different aspects of Nadal (or Federer) that has allowed him to be an extremely good player, one definitely has to talk about his mental strength. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you lack mental strength or a solid work eithic......it'd most likely be wasted talent. Of course, I have realized, that there isn't one definition for tennis talent. What I may consider talent, another may not............but hey, that's what makes for good conversations and threads..........

Castafiore
06-18-2006, 08:21 PM
You don't consider mental strength as a talent? Really?
Oh well ....we'll have to agree to disagree again, Mangoes. :)

For me, having a strong mind is certainly part of the talent package. It goes hand in hand with me:
* you need brains to make the right shot at the right time and you need to have a good mind to be able to do that game after game, set after set, match after match and tournament after tournament.
You need brains and the right attitude to know when to make what sort of shot and how to get the maximum out of a situation.
* On the other hand, you can be very smart ,strong and be a hard worker but that only takes you that far. You need to have certain abilities. Having a strong mind will only take you so far if you have a poor eye-hand coördination for example.

amierin
06-18-2006, 09:46 PM
I think it all depends on your viewpoint on what it takes to be a top tennis player and what you take into consideration when talking about talent.

Very often here in MTF, I notice that people talk about "technique" when they are discussing talent and they leave out aspects such as mental strength.
Example: tennis player A is more talented than tennis player B but B is mentally stronger. :confused:
I don't get that. How can you discuss talent and leave out the mind? Isn't that part of "talent"?
Many players have an excellent technique and good shots. Malisse is one of those players. But what seperates a good player from an excellent player is having the right heart and mind + having the right work ethic.

But talking about Nadal's unorthodox tennis technique. I remember watching a DVD with a Nadal match with French comments. One of the two commentators was a tennis coach. He said that he was fascinated by Nadal's technique. It's not what you teach in a tennis academy and yet, it works...so, instead of giving the easy answer you see all too often (e.g. he makes up for his not so excellent technique with fantastic physique,...) he started to analyze Rafa's game.
He explained (during the quiet moments of the match) that he started to watch more of Rafa's matches on DVD, he discussed aspects of his game with other tennis experts and he went talking to Toni Nadal.

This is the main explanation he came up with for Rafa's unorthodox techniques:
When Rafa was a kid, his uncle Toni would explain him a tennis situation: you stand over there, the other player's position is here...now see if you can get the ball to that point.
Uncle Toni explained that Rafa would be able to think it out on his own within two or three attempts. Most other kids need to learn proper techiques and shots to learn how to get the ball where they want it to land but not Rafa: he would have such a great natural instinct that he could figure it out on his own and very fast.

That gave the Nadal team a problem: do you take the normal way and teach him all the proper techniques by the book and risk the loss of depending on that great natural instinct or do you let him follow his own natural instincts and just stick with the basics?

They decided to let Rafa go with his natural instincts and just teach him the techniques he needed to learn (the basics) because they feared that if they taught him all the shots by the book into detail, he would lose his natural instincts for the ball (= focus on the shot selection by the book instead of following his own natural instincts that are fast and accurate).

So, when people are discussing talent and limiting their discussion to "technique" and "shot selection"...I'm often reminded of that explanation by that French tennis coach.

What a great post Castafiore. Thank you.:worship:

mangoes
06-18-2006, 10:57 PM
You don't consider mental strength as a talent? Really?
Oh well ....we'll have to agree to disagree again, Mangoes. :)

For me, having a strong mind is certainly part of the talent package. It goes hand in hand with me:
* you need brains to make the right shot at the right time and you need to have a good mind to be able to do that game after game, set after set, match after match and tournament after tournament.
You need brains and the right attitude to know when to make what sort of shot and how to get the maximum out of a situation.
* On the other hand, you can be very smart ,strong and be a hard worker but that only takes you that far. You need to have certain abilities. Having a strong mind will only take you so far if you have a poor eye-hand coördination for example.

I actually went out to get a bite to eat with some of my friends and I asked them that same question.........2 said they considered it talent, but 1 backed down saying she could see both points of view; and 1 said no and agreed with me......

If a person don't have a solid hand-eye coordination, he or she doesn't need to be a tennis player :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think the lines are being blurred between intelligence and mental strength when I read your position.

I believe mental strength is nurtured in an individual. It can be nurtured via the persons surrounding the individual or events in the person's life - and usually those events are negative. The toughest, mentally strong, individuals, usually, were victims at some point in their lives and refuse to ever be victimized again. Mental strength can also be nurtured by one's self, starting in late teens, out of arrogance(not bad in this context) and a desire to be the best.

When I look at Nadal, I see a lot of mental strength that was nurtured by Uncle Tony. Just listening to the BS that comes out of Uncle Tony's mouth tells most of us that he realizes a big part of the tennis game is mental (and I know that's a point you and I disagree about on many levels :lol: :lol: ) I see Uncle Tony's molding as a strong starting point for Nadal and then I see a desire, within Nadal, that's stronger than many, to simply be the best. He also seems to have a deep seeded belief in himself that it is not impossible to be the best.......again, that belief system in his abilities was nurtured by Uncle Tony........ Uncle Tony set out to make Nadal, not just a tennis player, but a top 5 tennis player. He set out a program for Nadal that included building Nadal's mental strength, self esteem and belief in his abilities. Personally, I admire all of this.........but, Nadal just isn't my favorite player ;)

I believe one is born with talent, but mental strength is nurtured and developed........

Metis
06-18-2006, 11:18 PM
I believe one is born with talent, but mental strength is nurtured and developed........

I agree with that mangoes. Talent by definition is a natural, innate ability whereas mental strength is a quality of one's character which is developed primarily throughout childhood and early adulthood.

amierin
06-18-2006, 11:50 PM
Marat Safin is one of the most talented players out there yet he is regularly deemed a "head case" on every tennis board I'm aware of.

Anna Kournikova was a junior star and used to beat her fellow Russians regularly.

Andy Roddick has raw, untapped talent but instead of his game growing it's stagnated.

James Blake has shown that he can hang with the big boys but has trouble getting over the hump of a final.

What good is talent when you can't discipline yourself to use it to it's full potential? You can say Nadal's belief in himself, his mental toughness, was honed by his Uncle Toni and is not necessary to be a great athlete but I don't think you'll find any athlete who says that it doesn't play a major part in their approach to their sport. It has to be there to be developed. I think this is all Castafiore is saying.

mangoes
06-19-2006, 12:53 AM
What good is talent when you can't discipline yourself to use it to it's full potential? You can say Nadal's belief in himself, his mental toughness, was honed by his Uncle Toni and is not necessary to be a great athlete but I don't think you'll find any athlete who says that it doesn't play a major part in their approach to their sport. It has to be there to be developed. I think this is all Castafiore is saying.

I never said that mental toughness is unimportant.....I never said that mental toughness "is not necessary to be a great athlete"..... I believe quite the opposite. The only discussion I'm having is whether mental strength can be defined as talent or whether someone is born with mental strength.

Being mentally strong is a necessity for anyone that wants to be at the top of his or her field........not only in sports.........

Mimi
06-19-2006, 02:51 AM
oh goran, do give some credit to nadal, first, said that david N is the real no.2 when he just won 5 titles while nadal 17, now, saying murray is more talented than nadal, yes, you can say that murray is more talented, but why you never say something good about nadal :rolleyes:

nadal already achieved more than you at his young age of 20, goran :mad:

Castafiore
06-19-2006, 07:36 AM
When I look at Nadal, I see a lot of mental strength that was nurtured by Uncle Tony. Just listening to the BS that comes out of Uncle Tony's mouth tells most of us that he realizes a big part of the tennis game is mental (and I know that's a point you and I disagree about on many levels :lol: :lol: ) I see Uncle Tony's molding as a strong starting point for Nadal and then I see a desire, within Nadal, that's stronger than many, to simply be the best. He also seems to have a deep seeded belief in himself that it is not impossible to be the best.......again, that belief system in his abilities was nurtured by Uncle Tony........ Uncle Tony set out to make Nadal, not just a tennis player, but a top 5 tennis player. He set out a program for Nadal that included building Nadal's mental strength, self esteem and belief in his abilities. Personally, I admire all of this.........but, Nadal just isn't my favorite player ;)
Well, I'm going to try to avoid talking about uncle Toni with you because I've seen how you think about him and erm...well, let's keep this conversation friendly, shall we? ;)

I don't quite see what the relevance is of Nadal being your favorite player or not. We should be able to talk about "talent" regardless of personal preference but that's probably pointless to suggest.
I mean, you only have to look at MTF to see how colored the viewpoint of most people are.

Furthermore, you say that Nadal's mental strength is something that was nurtured, right?
I agree to a certain degree: how he sees the sport, how he deals with competition,...a lot of all that can be traced back to his background (the fact that his family has experience with professional top sport has also helped probably + having a guy like Moya as mentor was also a bonus).

But isn't talent, as you seem to view it, also something you need to nurture? So, what's the difference exactly?
Because in both cases, I see it as an ability you are born with combined with the proper education and training.
I do believe that some people are born with a stronger mind than others: some people are natural born worriers while others are naturally more capable of dealing with challenges.

It has to be there to be developed
Indeed. It has to be there to be developed. That's my point.

I do believe that Rafael Nadal has a stronger mind than many out there to begin with but it sure did help that this was nurtured.
On the other hand, I see many players with a lot of talent and they work on being mentally tough all their life but they will never achieve it because they are perhaps more the natural born worrier type or something like that.

blessed
06-19-2006, 09:58 AM
I don't understand why people attach so much importance to talent. Talent is nothing without hard work. It is just a gift of nature. Mozart was probably the most talented musical genius of all time but without spending his entire childhood and adolescence working arduously he wouldn't have produced half as much as he did. Personally, I have more respect for people who reach a certain level by working hard than those who have the talent and ability to go even higher but wasted the opportunity.

If Nadal has less talent than Murray or others at the same age that makes his achievements even more impressive in my eyes. :)
I think Nadal fans should be happy about that and not consider it offensive (I agree it is annoying though). On the contrary it makes the other players look even more like underachievers, lazy, etc... :p

Well said! Talent is nothing without hard work.

Regards
Blessed

madmanfool
06-19-2006, 10:41 AM
Off course people mean technique when they talk about talent. They mean raw talent, not the talent overall. Sure that's not correct, but who gives a f*ck. Else it would pointless to talk about talent, just look at the rankings than and you see who is the most talented. All these other talents like being mentally strong are talents that help you win a match, they don't necessarily make you a better stroker of the ball.

If you think Nadal is not talented, you're making a big mistake, he has great hands, good volleys too.

Alvarillo
06-19-2006, 11:01 AM
tennis isn't only talent ... ;)
you need more things to be the best, not enough to play good shots ;)
and Nadal has talent (because without talent is impossible to achieve that he has achieved) and has also the other things that the orther players haven't found inside them
so Goran ...... that you say is ... boring! tell us another interesting things pleaseee

Apemant
06-19-2006, 12:53 PM
If you think Nadal is not talented, you're making a big mistake, he has great hands, good volleys too.

I don't think anyone (who is still sane) believes Nadal is not talented. The way he can hit pinpoint precise winners from completely defensive situations is unmatched. You can't do that if you have no talent. It's not something you would practice a lot, like serving for example, so it has to be something that comes naturally to him, ie pure talent.

But, it is true that Nadal's biggest weapons (currently; nothing about this kid would surprise me) are his energy, speed, endurance, and above all, mental toughness. Confidence, determination, willpower. Stuff that people often don't count as 'talent' for a particular sport (tennis, in this case).

mangoes
06-19-2006, 02:50 PM
I don't understand why people attach so much importance to talent. Talent is nothing without hard work. It is just a gift of nature. Mozart was probably the most talented musical genius of all time but without spending his entire childhood and adolescence working arduously he wouldn't have produced half as much as he did. Personally, I have more respect for people who reach a certain level by working hard than those who have the talent and ability to go even higher but wasted the opportunity.

If Nadal has less talent than Murray or others at the same age that makes his achievements even more impressive in my eyes. :)
I think Nadal fans should be happy about that and not consider it offensive (I agree it is annoying though). On the contrary it makes the other players look even more like underachievers, lazy, etc... :p


I could not agree with you anymore.......... and quite honestly, that's one of the reasons I have more admiration for Nadal than most of the newbies.

mangoes
06-19-2006, 03:18 PM
Well, I'm going to try to avoid talking about uncle Toni with you because I've seen how you think about him and erm...well, let's keep this conversation friendly, shall we? ;)

There's no need to become unfriendly over this.......even if we were to discuss this. We disagree........that's it :shrug:

I don't quite see what the relevance is of Nadal being your favorite player or not. We should be able to talk about "talent" regardless of personal preference but that's probably pointless to suggest.
I mean, you only have to look at MTF to see how colored the viewpoint of most people are.

Exactly my point for saying this.



But isn't talent, as you seem to view it, also something you need to nurture? So, what's the difference exactly?

I think the poster Metis explained it the best by using Mozart as a very good example. Of course talent has to be nurtured. It's a special gift a person is born with that can either be wasted or used to full advantage. I'm going to use Roger and Gasquet as examples. Roger, I believe, is a naturally gifted tennis player. He has taken that gift and developed it. In addition to his talent, he has had to work hard at, among other things, developing mental strength and a fitness level that's one of the best on the tour........all of the hard work has equaled.....Roger Federer, no 1 in the world. Gasquet is, in my opinion, the most talented player from the next generation. Will he ever achieve what Roger has acheived thus far?? Or will he even be as successful as Nadal?? I don't know. In fact, it is quite possible that 10 years from today, Nadal will be the one hailed as the best tennis player of his generation and everyone will be wondering about Gasquet's current ranking.......

I'm also not saying that Nadal has no talent. He obviously is talented. I disagree with Ivan when he says that Murray is more talented than Nadal. I think Nadal is more talented than Murray. But, I think Gasquet has more talent than Nadal. Using one's talent to it's advantage required hard work. So far, Nadal is the player putting in the hard work and he has to be commended for this.

Just Cause
10-18-2006, 03:21 PM
One set off from World #3 Ljubicic...!?

supersexynadal
10-18-2006, 03:51 PM
He says: 'Nadal is Nadal; Murray has a different game. Murray's more talented, he has a better serve, he's different. Maybe someone needs one hour to do something that Nadal needs five hours to do. Not everyone practises the same. They have completely different games.

How can a formal pro say that?:rolleyes:

In my opinion, every player is talented in his or her own way. There no way u can make the top 200 without having some kind of talent. Of course theres the occasional Spadea but im sure he did something to get there:rolleyes:
So what if murray has a better serve?? If thats what makes him more talented then murray would be an ass if i said nadals forhand, footword, forehand, speed amd ,entality is better than murrays.

radics
10-18-2006, 04:05 PM
He says: 'Nadal is Nadal; Murray has a different game. Murray's more talented, he has a better serve, he's different. Maybe someone needs one hour to do something that Nadal needs five hours to do. Not everyone practises the same. They have completely different games.

How can a formal pro say that?:rolleyes:

In my opinion, every player is talented in his or her own way. There no way u can make the top 200 without having some kind of talent. Of course theres the occasional Spadea but im sure he did something to get there:rolleyes:
So what if murray has a better serve?? If thats what makes him more talented then murray would be an ass if i said nadals forhand, footword, forehand, speed amd ,entality is better than murrays.

That's why he said MORE talented. Not NOT talented.

LK_22
10-18-2006, 04:49 PM
He is. Murray can win a match in a number of ways while Nadal just plays his usual robot grinding out sessions until the other player dies of boredom :devil:

Pfloyd
10-18-2006, 05:49 PM
My god, talk about ridiculous bullshit. Nadal not talented?

Please, Nadal has talent to spare. His dorpshots, his passing shots, his improved net play, the spins he puts on the balls he hits, his wicked spinning first serve, non of this is talent?

Please comparing Nadal to Murray is about as insulting as insults gets. Nadal can beat murray at any surface, any time and playing with his right hand.

Enough of this.

Ivanisovic is just jealous cause' he only won 1 GS, well FUCK YOU Ivanesivic, guess what? Rafa's a shitload beter than you and Murray combined.

guga2120
10-18-2006, 05:53 PM
not quite, he has talent but hes not Nadal good.

supersexynadal
10-18-2006, 06:00 PM
He is. Murray can win a match in a number of ways while Nadal just plays his usual robot grinding out sessions until the other player dies of boredom :devil:

Oh please...Look at nadals records on all surface and murrays records on all surfaces. Talent also includes consistency and if anyone tells me murray is consistent then theyre living in another time zone. If u think nadals game is a robot grinding game then i still think he has a good game. First of all, on hard courts he doesnt o it. He changed a lot of things on faster surfaces INCLUDING his grip. Of course more losses came with that but i never see murray change things a little in a match. Nadals also been very succesful at the net eventhough hes nto a natural. Last year he barely volleyed.

Just Cause
10-18-2006, 09:54 PM
Oh please...Look at nadals records on all surface and murrays records on all surfaces. Talent also includes consistency and if anyone tells me murray is consistent then theyre living in another time zone. If u think nadals game is a robot grinding game then i still think he has a good game. First of all, on hard courts he doesnt o it. He changed a lot of things on faster surfaces INCLUDING his grip. Of course more losses came with that but i never see murray change things a little in a match. Nadals also been very succesful at the net eventhough hes nto a natural. Last year he barely volleyed.

I would agree. It is like saying that Santoro is more talented than Roddick, (well, sort of true, but u know my point).

revolution
10-18-2006, 09:55 PM
Wouldn't necessarily agree with him on this, but he has a right to his opinion.

Joaquim
10-18-2006, 10:18 PM
Ugh. Stop talking, Goran.

LK_22
10-19-2006, 08:55 AM
He changed a lot of things on faster surfaces INCLUDING his grip.

Because Nadal changing his grip makes him a better player to watch ;)

Of course more losses came with that but i never see murray change things a little in a match.

Please! One of Murray's greatest strength is that he can mix it up so well, with his serve, slice, rushing to the net or rallying from the baseline. Nadal only wins his matches one way, although I'm not doubting that he is consistent, consistently boring!

Nadals also been very succesful at the net eventhough hes nto a natural. Last year he barely volleyed.

Only a Nadal fan would say that Rafa has been very successful at the net. Even successful is a massive over-statement. Look at his doubles record this year for proof of this