Interesting fact: Some of the great "rivalries" were streaky [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Interesting fact: Some of the great "rivalries" were streaky

Tennis Fool
06-14-2006, 04:03 AM
Since Federer's rise to greatness, we've wondered if or who would rival him. We've said "Roddick can't be his rival, he's never beaten him." On the other hand, "Nadal can't be his rival either, he always beats Federer!"

When we think of rivlaries we think of two champions, who have opposite games and personalities, who inspire each other to even higher standards of greatness. Their efforts usually result in high quality matches and alternating wins.

This true of a few of the great rivalries, Borg v McEnroe, Sampras v Agassi, Seles v Graf...

However, when you look at some of the rivalries that are considered "legendary", a surprising fact emerges: One player will completely dominate the other, until the other goes on a streak or they begin to trade wins. This happens over the length of a tennis life, and only near the end do we, through nostalgia and faulty memory, think of the see-saw competitions as a "rivalry."

Take note:

McEnroe vs Lendl (18-21)
1992 Montreal / Toronto Hard Q Lendl 6-2 6-4
1991 Long Island NY, U.S.A. Hard S Lendl 6-3 7-5
1990 London / Queen's Club England Grass S Lendl 6-2 6-4
1990 Toronto Indoor Canada Carpet S Lendl 6-3 6-2
1989 Masters NY, U.S.A. Carpet RR Lendl 6-3 6-3
1989 Montreal / Toronto Hard F Lendl 6-1 6-3[/color]
1989 Dallas WCT TX, U.S.A. Carpet S McEnroe 6-7 7-6 6-2 7-5
1989 Australian Open Australia Hard Q Lendl 7-6 6-2 7-6
1988 Roland Garros France Clay R16 Lendl 6-7 7-6 6-4 6-4
1987 US Open NY, U.S.A. Hard Q Lendl 6-3 6-3 6-4
1987 Stratton Mountain VT, U.S.A. Hard F Lendl WEA
1985 US Open NY, U.S.A. Hard F Lendl 7-6 6-3 6-4
1985 Montreal / Toronto Montreal Hard F McEnroe 7-5 6-3
1985 Stratton Mountain VT, U.S.A. Hard F McEnroe 7-6 6-2
1985 World Team Cup Germany Clay F Lendl 6-7 7-6 6-3
1985 Forest Hills NY, U.S.A. Clay F Lendl 6-3 6-3
1984 Masters NY, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 7-5 6-0 6-4
1984 US Open NY, U.S.A. Hard F McEnroe 6-3 6-4 6-1
1984 Roland Garros France Clay F Lendl 3-6 2-6 6-4 7-5 7-5
1984 World Team Cup Germany Clay F McEnroe 6-3 6-2
1984 Forest Hills WCT NY, U.S.A. Clay F McEnroe 6-4 6-2
1984 Brussels Belgium Carpet F McEnroe 6-1 6-3
1984 Philadelphia PA, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 6-3 3-6 6-3 7-6
1983 Masters NY, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 6-3 6-4 6-4
1983 San Francisco CA, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 3-6 7-6 6-4
1983 Wimbledon England Grass S McEnroe 7-6 6-4 6-4
1983 Dallas WCT TX, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 6-2 4-6 6-3 6-7 7-6
1983 Philadelphia PA, U.S.A. Carpet F McEnroe 4-6 7-6 6-4 6-3
1982 Masters NY, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 6-4 6-4 6-2
1982 US Open NY, U.S.A. Hard S Lendl 6-4 6-4 7-6
1982 Montreal / Toronto Toronto, Canada Hard S Lendl 6-4 6-4
1982 Dallas WCT TX, U.S.A. Carpet F Lendl 6-2 3-6 6-3 6-3
1981 Masters NY, U.S.A. Carpet S Lendl 6-4 6-2
1981 TCH V USA QF U.S.A. Hard RR Lendl 6-4 14-12 7-5
1981 Roland Garros France Clay Q Lendl 6-4 6-4 7-5
[/COLOR]1980 US Open NY, U.S.A. Hard Q McEnroe 4-6 6-3 6-2 7-5
1980 Milan Italy Carpet S McEnroe 6-3 1-6 6-2

Becker v Edberg 25-10
1984-10-15 Cologne Indoor Hardcourt R32 Stefan Edberg (SWE) 6-4 6-4
1985-01-21 Philadelphia Indoor Carpet R32 Stefan Edberg (SWE) 6-3 6-1
1985-04-29 Las Vegas Hardcourt R16 Boris Becker (GER) 6-3 6-7 6-2
1985-12-20 Davis Cup Indoor Carpet RR Boris Becker (GER) 6-3 3-6 7-5 8-6
1986-04-07 Dallas Indoor Carpet SF Boris Becker (GER) 7-6 7-6 4-6 7-6
1986-08-11 Toronto Hardcourt F Boris Becker (GER) 6-4 3-6 6-3
1986-10-20 Tokyo Indoor Carpet F Boris Becker (GER) 7-6 6-1
1986-12-01 New York Indoor Carpet SF Boris Becker (GER) 6-4 6-4
1987-02-16 Indian Wells Hardcourt F Boris Becker (GER) 6-4 6-4 7-5
1987-08-10 Montreal Hardcourt SF Stefan Edberg (SWE) 6-2 6-4
1987-08-17 Cincinnati Hardcourt F Stefan Edberg (SWE) 6-4 6-1
1988-03-28 Dallas Indoor Carpet F Boris Becker (GER)6-4 1-6 7-5 6-2
1988-06-06 Queen's Club Grass F Boris Becker (GER) 6-1 3-6 6-3
1988-06-20 Wimbledon Grass F Stefan Edberg (SWE) 4-6 7-6 6-4 6-2
1988-11-28 New York Indoor Carpet RR Stefan Edberg (SWE) 7-6 3-6 6-4
1988-12-16 Davis Cup (WG-F) Indoor Clay RR Becker (GER) 6-3 6-1 6-4
1989-05-29 Roland Garros Clay SF Edberg (SWE) 6-3 6-4 5-7 3-6 6-2
1989-06-26 Wimbledon Grass F Boris Becker (GER) 6-0 7-6 6-4
1989-10-30 Paris Indoor Carpet F Boris Becker (GER) 6-4 6-3 6-3
1989-11-27 New York Indoor Carpet RR Boris Becker (GER) 6-1 6-4
1989-11-27 New York Indoor Carpet F Edberg (SWE) 4-6 7-6 6-3 6-1
1989-12-15 Davis Cup (WG-F) Indoor Carpet RR Becker (GER) 6-2 6-2 6-4
1990-06-11 Queen's Club Grass SF Boris Becker (GER) 6-4 6-4
1990-06-25 Wimbledon Grass F Stefan Edberg (SWE) 6-2 6-2 3-6 3-6 6-4
1990-10-01 Sydney Indoor Hardcourt F Boris Becker (GER) 7-6 6-4 6-4
1990-10-22 Stockholm Indoor Carpet F Becker (GER) 6-4 6-0 6-3
1990-10-29 Paris Indoor Carpet F Stefan Edberg (SWE) 3-3 ret
1991-10-21 Stockholm Indoor Carpet F Becker (GER)3-6 6-4 1-6 6-2 6-2
1992-02-10 Brussels Indoor Carpet SF Becker (GER) 4-6 6-4 6-2
1992-11-16 Frankfurt Indoor Carpet RR Boris Becker (GER) 6-4 6-0
1993-01-04 Doha Hardcourt SF Boris Becker (GER) 6-4 6-4
1994-11-14 Frankfurt Indoor Carpet RR Becker (GER) 6-7 6-4 7-5
1995-09-25 Basel Indoor Hardcourt QF Becker (GER) 6-4 3-6 6-3
1996-01-01 Doha Hardcourt R32 Boris Becker (GER) 6-2 7-5
1996-06-10 London / Queen's Club Grass F Becker (GER) 6-4 7-6(3)

Martina v Chris 43-37
1973-03-19 Akron Indoor Carpet R32 Evert (USA) 7-6 6-3
1973-04-16 St. Petersburg Clay SF Chris Evert (USA) 7-5 6-3
1974-01-14 San Francisco Indoor Carpet R32 Evert (USA) 6-7 6-3 6-1
1974-05-27 Rome Clay F Chris Evert (USA) 6-3 6-3
1975-01-06 San Francisco Indoor Carpet SF Chris Evert (USA) 6-4 6-3
1975-01-27 Washington Indoor Carpet QF Navratilova (USA) 3-6 6-4 7-6
1975-02-03 Akron Indoor Carpet QF Chris Evert (USA) 6-3 6-1
1975-02-10 Chicago Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-4 6-2
1975-03-24 Philadelphia Hardcourt SF Evert (USA) 7-6 6-4
1975-03-31 Los Angeles Indoor Carpet F Chris Evert (USA) 6-4 6-2
1975-04-21 Amelia Island Clay F Chris Evert (USA) 7-5 6-4
1975-05-26 Rome Clay F Chris Evert (USA) 6-1 6-0
1975-06-02 Roland Garros Clay F Chris Evert (USA) 2-6 6-2 6-1
1975-08-25 U.S. Open Clay SF Chris Evert (USA) 6-4 6-4
1975-09-15 Atlanta Indoor Carpet F Chris Evert (USA) 2-6 6-2 6-0
1976-01-05 Austin Indoor Carpet SF Chris Evert (USA) 6-0 6-3
1976-01-12 Houston Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 6-4
1976-06-21 Wimbledon Grass SF Chris Evert (USA) 6-3 4-6 6-4
1977-01-03 Washington Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova 6-2 6-3
1977-01-31 Seattle Indoor Carpet F Evert (USA) 6-2 6-4
1977-02-14 Los Angeles Indoor Carpet F Chris Evert (USA) 6-2 2-6 6-1
1977-03-14 Philadelphia Hardcourt F Chris Evert (USA) 6-4 4-6 6-3
1977-04-11 Tucson Indoor Carpet F Chris Evert (USA) 6-3 7-6
1977-10-31 Palm Springs Hardcourt RR Chris Evert (USA) 6-4 6-1
1978-06-19 Eastbourne Grass F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-4 4-6 9-7
1978-06-26 Wimbledon Grass F Martina Navratilova (USA) 2-6 6-4 7-5
1978-09-25 Atlanta Indoor Carpet F Chris Evert (USA) 7-6 0-6 6-3
1978-11-13 Palm Springs Hardcourt F Chris Evert (USA) 6-3 6-3
1978-12-11 Tokyo Indoor Carpet F Chris Evert (USA) 7-5 6-2
1979-01-08 Oakland Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-5 7-5
1979-02-12 Los Angeles Indoor Carpet F Chris Evert (USA) 6-3 6-4
1979-02-26 Dallas Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-4 6-4
1979-06-18 Eastbourne Grass F Chris Evert (USA) 7-5 5-7 13-11
1979-06-25 Wimbledon Grass F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-4 6-4
1979-10-08 Phoenix Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-1 6-3
1979-11-19 Brighton Indoor Carpet F Navratilova (USA) 6-3 6-3
1980-01-21 Chicago Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-4 6-4
1980-06-23 Wimbledon Grass SF Chris Evert (USA) 4-6 6-4 6-2
1980-10-20 Brighton Indoor Carpet F Chris Evert (USA) 6-4 5-7 6-3
1980-11-17 Tokyo Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-2
1981-04-20 Amelia island Clay F Chris Evert (USA) 6-0 6-0
1981-08-31 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Navratilova (USA) 7-5 4-6 6-4
1981-11-16 Tokyo Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 6-2
1981-11-23 Sydney Grass F Chris Evert (USA) 6-4 2-6 6-1
1981-11-30 Australian Open Grass F Martina Navratilova 6-7 6-4 7-5
1982-06-21 Wimbledon Grass F Martina Navratilova 6-1 3-6 6-2
1982-10-25 Brighton Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova 6-1 6-4
1982-11-29 Australian Open Grass F Chris Evert (USA) 6-3 2-6 6-3
1982-12-13 East Rutherford Indoor Hardcourt F Navratilova 4-6 6-1 6-2
1983-03-07 Dallas Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-4 6-0
1983-03-21 Virginia Slims Indoor Carpet F Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-0
1983-08-08 Los Angeles Hardcourt F Navratilova 6-1 6-3
1983-08-15 Toronto Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova 6-4 4-6 6-1
1983-08-29 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova 6-1 6-3
1983-11-21 Tokyo Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova 6-2 6-2
1984-02-20 East Hanover Indoor Carpet F Navratilova 6-2 7-6
1984-02-27 Virginia Slims Championships Carpet F Navratilova 6-3 7-5 6-1
1984-04-16 Amelia Island Clay F Martina Navratilova 6-2 6-0
1984-05-28 Roland Garros Clay F Martina Navratilova 6-3 6-1
1984-06-25 Wimbledon Grass F Martina Navratilova 7-6 6-2
1984-08-27 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova 4-6 6-4 6-4
1985-01-21 Key Biscayne Hardcourt F Chris Evert 6-2 6-4
1985-02-04 Delray Beach Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova 6-2 6-4
1985-03-11 Dallas Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova 6-3 6-4
1985-05-27 Roland Garros Clay F Chris Evert 6-3 6-7 7-5
1985-06-24 Wimbledon Grass F Martina Navratilova (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-2
1985-11-25 Australian Open Grass F Martina Navratilova 6-2 4-6 6-2
1986-03-10 Dallas Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA)6-2 6-1
1986-05-26 Roland Garros Clay F Chris Evert (USA)2-6 6-3 6-3
1986-08-11 Los Angeles Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA)7-6 6-3
1987-04-20 Houston Clay F Chris Evert (USA) 3-6 6-1 7-6
1987-05-25 Roland Garros Clay SF Martina Navratilova (USA)6-2 6-2
1987-06-22 Wimbledon Grass SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 5-7 6-4
1987-08-10 Los Angeles Hardcourt SF Chris Evert (USA) 6-2 6-1
1987-10-12 Filderstadt Indoor Hardcourt F Navratilova7-5 6-1
1988-01-11 Australian Open Hardcourt SF Chris Evert (USA)6-2 7-5
1988-04-18 Houston Clay F Chris Evert (USA)6-0 6-4
1988-06-22 Wimbledon Grass SF Martina Navratilova (USA)6-1 4-6 7-5
1988-10-10 Filderstadt Indoor Hardcourt F Navratilova 6-2 6-3
1988-11-07 Chicago Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova 6-2 6-2

robrulz5
06-14-2006, 04:21 AM
Navratiolva and Evert played 80 times!!!

I really can't see any big rivlaries at the moment. Possibly Federer-Nalbandian. Early in their career Nalbandian went on a streak of wins and now it has turned the other way around.

Maybe they will begin to trade wins???

CmonAussie
06-14-2006, 04:22 AM
Tennis fool mate, you`re no `fool`~those are some wicked stats you`ve accumulated & fair point!!!

*I`m rather hoping the Federer v Hewitt rivalry has continued streakiness back in favor of Rocky Llegs at some point. Lleyton won 7 of their first 9 & now Fed has 9-in-a-row, it would be a surprise to many if Hewitt could turn that around but you never know your luck...

Scotso
06-14-2006, 04:28 AM
It's normal. When you have players that are evenly matched, confidence is really the only thing that separates them.

But then, that's why there are so few real "rivalries."

jmp
06-14-2006, 04:55 AM
Great job, TF! :yeah:

SpECiaL K
06-14-2006, 09:19 AM
now federer and nadal will play on hard court and indoors (maybe on grass)
so i think now federer will be favorite in the next matches....
if rogere will beat nadal a first time, then another...i think he will get confidence against rafa and remember what happens vs hewitt or roddick!!!!
he will be competitive also on clay....
so i think these victories for nadal are so important for his career than for federer....
be patient and you'll see

BlueSwan
06-14-2006, 09:27 AM
This is a really good point and nice stats. Props!

propi
06-14-2006, 09:33 AM
I'm surprised by Becker and Edberg's one... Boris leads Stefan by a lot but apparently almost all of their GS matches were for the cool Suede :)

jenanun
06-14-2006, 11:14 AM
so people are saying based on these stats,
federer is going to turn around the h2h?

maybe, maybe not

but bear in mind,

one thing about these records, are the 2 players are of the same age (<2 years difference in age)

whereas nadal and federer have almost 5 years age gap

so in tennis, almost like 2 generation

(nadal belongs to the same group as gasquet, berdych, murray, bagdatis etc.)
federer belongs to the same group with hewitt, roddick, safin etc.)

this may apply to federer vs hewitt,
or federer vs nalbandian,

i dont think is the same for federer vs nadal

federer maybe able to turn around h2h, as they only meet 7 times,
but nadal is the one who is rising / improving... imo

Argenbrit
06-14-2006, 03:15 PM
so people are saying based on these stats,
federer is going to turn around the h2h?

maybe, maybe not

but bear in mind,

one thing about these records, are the 2 players are of the same age (<2 years difference in age)

whereas nadal and federer have almost 5 years age gap

so in tennis, almost like 2 generation

(nadal belongs to the same group as gasquet, berdych, murray, bagdatis etc.)
federer belongs to the same group with hewitt, roddick, safin etc.)

this may apply to federer vs hewitt,
or federer vs nalbandian,

i dont think is the same for federer vs nadal

federer maybe able to turn around h2h, as they only meet 7 times,
but nadal is the one who is rising / improving... imo

I agree. It's a good point. When Federer turned pro, Nadal was only 12 years old.

Fedex
07-03-2006, 08:13 AM
I've just seen this thread, and you do make a good point, TF. It's amazing to think that Evert lead Navratilova 20-4 at one point, and Navratilova ended up winning the head to head 43-37. I dont know if Federer will be able to do the same thing against Nadal, we'll just have to wait and see.
It almost reminds me of the Yankees Red Sox rivalry. There have been times when one team dominated the other( Sox dominated the Yankees prior to 1920), the Yankees did the same to the Red Sox from 1920 into the 50's. And there have been times when they have gone toe to toe in head to head showdowns, like the 70's and 80's, and 2000-2006. Overall the Yankees lead something like 1080-900, which is just remarkable. You think the 80 times Evert and Navratilova played is impressive? How about the Red Sox and Yankees playing each other nearly 2000 times over a stretch of 103 years. :lol: :rolls:

Allez
07-03-2006, 08:33 AM
This is great Tennis Fool. That Martina v Chris rivalry is amazing. How is it possible for players to play each other that many times ? I certainly can't see anything like that happenning in this generation. Also I doubt that Federer can turn around his losing streak to Nadal significantly. The problem is that he doesn't have enough time to do so ( if he were 20 years old then yes) and he just can't beat him on clay. On the other hand Nadal seems to be improving all the time on faster surfaces so he's going to be in a lot more finals where Roger will have his fair share of wins. Unfortunately that isn't going to be enough to overhaul Nadal's lead. He needs to win on clay for that to happen.

BlueSwan
07-03-2006, 09:06 AM
This is great Tennis Fool. That Martina v Chris rivalry is amazing. How is it possible for players to play each other that many times?
Because they owned every other player on tour for 15 years or so, until Graf turned up.

Allez
07-03-2006, 09:17 AM
Because they owned every other player on tour for 15 years or so, until Graf turned up.
But for those two, it must have been an incredibly boring 15 years. it is quite extraodinary that for that length of time only 2 players dominated the tour. I mean 15 years ??!!?? Graf must have been like a breath of fresh air. I mean to replicate this feat, Roger needed to have been dominating the tour since he was around 16/17 and Hewitt would have been his perfect rival as they are of the same age. If a rivalry like that is going to happen again, it is going to be in the Nadal/Gasquet/Djokovic/Berdych/Murray/Baghdatis generation I think.

BlueSwan
07-03-2006, 10:26 AM
Well, 15 years is perhaps overstating it slightly, but Evert started dominating around 1974 and then Navratilova upped her game to rival Evert a few years later. In tandem they dominated the sport until Graf took over decisively in 1987. Only Tracy Austin had a brief 3-week stint at no.1 in the meantime and she pretty much disappeared as fast as she came.

Allez
07-03-2006, 10:49 AM
Well, 15 years is perhaps overstating it slightly, but Evert started dominating around 1974 and then Navratilova upped her game to rival Evert a few years later. In tandem they dominated the sport until Graf took over decisively in 1987. Only Tracy Austin had a brief 3-week stint at no.1 in the meantime and she pretty much disappeared as fast as she came.
I've heard about the Tracy Austin burn out. Such a shame as I think she's a great and fun person. Evert just looks so serious all the time. Sorry to turn this into a WTA thread ;)

Tennis Fool
07-03-2006, 02:54 PM
I've heard about the Tracy Austin burn out. Such a shame as I think she's a great and fun person. Evert just looks so serious all the time. Sorry to turn this into a WTA thread ;)
I don't think TA was burnt out, but had Hingis-type foot problems.

federated
07-03-2006, 04:09 PM
Absolutely great post. So important to keep in mind. :speakles: evert-navratilova's 80 matches. that's just insane.

Tennis Fool
07-09-2006, 04:21 PM
Bump after Wimbledon.

Apemant
07-09-2006, 04:40 PM
I agree. It's a good point. When Federer turned pro, Nadal was only 12 years old.

True, but then Nadal turned pro only 3 years later. He is not so new to the tour as his age might suggest.