Thinking of switching bookie - please help! [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Thinking of switching bookie - please help!

Horatio Caine
04-29-2006, 09:12 PM
Hey everyone :bigwave:

I have been betting with Willhill but I am really considering a move to Betfair. There are so many more opportunities available...better odds etc - my cup of tea!

Only thing is, I have a couple of question which some of you might be able to help me with...

1. What is Betfair's policy where you bet on a player that either withdraws before the match or retires during the match? Willhill refunds the stake.

2. I don't understand the bet / lay principle - how does this work?

3. Can you "buy" better odds - if so, do you have to pay commission?

Thanks.

coup3z
04-29-2006, 09:32 PM
The answer to Q1 in detail:

TENNIS

***If a player or pairing retires or is disqualified during a match before its completion, the player or pairing progressing to the next round (or winning the tournament in the case of a final) will be deemed the winner. However if less than one set has been completed at the time of the retirement or disqualification then all bets will be void.

***If a player fails to start any tournament or match, all bets on that player (including tournament or individual match markets) will be void. For the avoidance of doubt this rule applies to ante-post tournament betting.

***All bets relating to the number of occurrences of certain events within a tournament will be void if the tournament is reduced in length, postponed or cancelled, except for those on markets which have been unconditionally determined.

***If the scheduled venue is changed after the market has been loaded by Betfair to a different type of surface, all bets will be void except for those on markets which have been unconditionally determined.

***If the scheduled duration of a match is reduced or increased in the number of games/sets required to win, all bets will be void except for those on markets which have been unconditionally determined.

***Where markets are offered on individual games or sets within a match, a retirement or disqualification during a game or set will render bets on that game or set market and all individual game or set markets void except those on markets which have been unconditionally determined.

Dollars & Cents
04-29-2006, 11:31 PM
Jez - I take it you are a UK punter? If so then there are a range of UK-based bookies which are pretty good for tennis. This is an advantage obviously if you have any customer service needs and also account verification and withdrawal - as there is no need for you to send any documentation to prove your identity as UK-based companies defer this to the banks.

Secondly, knowing the retirement rule is a must before betting. My question is what scenario do you prefer? Whichever you take it's best to be consistent unless say, you spot an edge where you think the favourite may retire so back the underdog somewhere that operates a 1-ball strike rule or playing progressing to the next round. I always take the option of void for retirement/disqualification and only place tennis bets where these apply.

The bookies that do that:

UK-based: Bet365, William Hill, Stan James, Paddy Power, VC Bet
Global: Centrebet, Gamebookers

I'd strongly suggest opening multiple accounts as obtaining the best price is an important practice in betting.

bad gambler
04-29-2006, 11:38 PM
Well said D&C - especially regarding the multiple bookies, it's a MUST to use more than one book purely to ensure you don't short change yourself

Yoel and co.
04-29-2006, 11:45 PM
I have to say that although WHill does give shorter odds then most, I find their website the most clear and user friendly

Dollars & Cents
04-30-2006, 12:57 AM
Well said D&C - especially regarding the multiple bookies, it's a MUST to use more than one book purely to ensure you don't short change yourself

Yes and here's why if people need numerical support:

Let's look at tomorrow and we see Nadal (anyone betting on Nadal at that price is crazy!) and we can get 1.08 @ Bet365 and 1.10 @ Stan James. Maybe I only have a Bet365 account and I think what is 0.02 difference? That won't make much difference? But where do you draw the line? 0.02 OK but 0.05 or 0.10 not?

Here's how much difference it makes in the LONG-RUN.

Note: the following example is adapted from another forum.

Example:

A tennis punter who bets frequently over the course of the ATP season. That is over a 40-week period; 6 bets per week each at 10% of his bank. The odds he selects are usually around 2.00 and he has a success rate of 50%.

Of course any punter should know that a 50% success rate at odds of 2.00 is only a break-even situation (we should all know the price range we take and how many times we need to win at that price to break-even and secure a profit). So the punter is doing OK as they are not making a loss. Now this an extreme example of a punter on the edge of profit.

Summary:
Tennis season: 40 Weeks
Starting bank: £200.00
No.of bets: 6 per week
Stake: 10% of bank (i.e. starting bet: £20.00)
Average Odds: 2.00
Success rate: 50%

---------------------------

What will their bank be after 40 weeks?

Obviously with that success rate their bank will at the end be exactly the same value at the start. However, you'll be surprised what happens when the average odds are increased upwards from 2.00.

After 40 weeks:
Average Odds @ 2.00 - Final Bank: £200.00
Average Odds @ 2.01 - Final Bank: £224.78
Average Odds @ 2.02 - Final Bank: £252.55
Average Odds @ 2.03 - Final Bank: £283.65
Average Odds @ 2.04 - Final Bank: £318.47
Average Odds @ 2.05 - Final Bank: £357.44
Average Odds @ 2.06 - Final Bank: £401.05
Average Odds @ 2.07 - Final Bank: £449.82
Average Odds @ 2.08 - Final Bank: £504.35
Average Odds @ 2.09 - Final Bank: £565.30
Average Odds @ 2.10 - Final Bank: £633.41

:eek: Surprised? Let's stop mid-way from that list and see how week-by-week if he had accepted a price of 2.05 where he would normally have found 2.00 how the numbers break down.

Week Bank Bets Result
1 £200.00 £120.00 £123.00
2 £203.00 £121.80 £124.85
3 £206.05 £123.63 £126.72
4 £209.14 £125.48 £128.62
5 £212.27 £127.36 £130.55
10 £228.68 £137.21 £140.64
15 £246.35 £147.81 £151.51
20 £265.39 £159.23 £163.21
25 £285.90 £171.54 £175.83
30 £308.00 £184.80 £189.42
35 £331.80 £199.08 £204.06
40 £357.44 £214.47 £219.83

Now you should be able to understand why members such as Bad Gambler are so critical when punters accept nowhere near the best price.

Horatio Caine
04-30-2006, 01:04 AM
Wow thanks guys - excellent stuff! :yeah:

I appreciate all that time you've put in about the odds differences D&C :worship:

Yeah the problem is that I like to have my eggs in one basket so to speak :lol: I have invested £x in my betting this year by way of a 1-off payment into my account, so I'm not sure how all that would work out in say, 3 different betting accounts.

However, I totally get what you're saying about odds differences - I had no idea that a couple of points influenced the potential year's takings by that much :eek:

Please keep any other advice coming if you have anything to add. It is all much appreciated! :worship:

TwistyServe
04-30-2006, 01:06 AM
Its about time you dumped WHill. I've never seen so much juice taken by a bookie, the odds you get are always horrendous.

Dollars & Cents
04-30-2006, 01:17 AM
Wow thanks guys - excellent stuff! :yeah:

Yeah the problem is that I like to have my eggs in one basket so to speak :lol: I have invested £x in my betting this year by way of a 1-off payment into my account, so I'm not sure how all that would work out in say, 3 different betting accounts.

Jez - I'm sure you're an experienced punter who doesn't bet a ridiculously large proportion of their bank. You seem too smart for that :D. The example I gave is not a bad one...I know you're a student (I am too!) so we can hardly afford a large starting bank where we can bet 1% or 2% for each bet. 5% or 10% is not too bad as it would take 20 or 10 consecutive failures to eliminate all funds.

So that's what I would suggest. All the money you have in Will Hill distribute it around atleast 5 bookies (i.e. find another 4 - shop around next week perhaps looking at odds). Then only take a certain bet where it is highest and still bet the total proportion of your bank. What you'll now find is each "mini-bank" will only be two failures away from being wiped-out (i.e. 5 mini-bank's: each is 20% of total bank). Don't worry about this as your overall situation is still the same. Some accounts will accelerate while others get left behind. If you want all accounts active to still get the best price simply redistribute again through topping-up. With withdrawal waits you may have to introduce some of your own money first if you want an instant effect but this of course purely temporary.