Who's strongest mentally? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Who's strongest mentally?

Buddy
12-26-2003, 04:22 PM
I dunno if this has been asked but is there a player who always never gives up till the end?

I know one tennis magazine decribes such a person as Amanda Coetzer. But perhaps that's last time cos i dun see her playing with optimism now.

As for the guys, I think I would pick Agassi. I believe he's one of those who saves loads of match points....

*Ljubica*
12-26-2003, 04:34 PM
I would vote for Lleyton Hewitt - remember his tremendous comeback against Federer in the Davis Cup this year? He may not be the most beautiful player to watch in my opinion, but he certainly always give 100%.

Deboogle!.
12-26-2003, 04:36 PM
Oh Agassi definitely I think. But to be fair, he wasn't always, especially when he was the New Balls' age.

Of the New Balls, I'd say Hewitt and Roddick.

star
12-26-2003, 04:58 PM
Agassi is good now, but still I see that deer in the headlights look on his face sometimes.

Right now, I would say, Roddick and Hewitt are the two who are mentally strongest. Roddick showed a lot of mental fortitude in the summer as well as in Australia. I put Roddick ahead of Hewitt right now because Hewitt has had a few flashes of mental strength this year but nothing like he had in the last two years.

And I bed go differ about Hewitt not being beautiful to watch. I love seeing a player flash across the corut at the speed of light. It's one of the reasons I like Coria. :)

maratski
12-26-2003, 05:10 PM
Roddick mentally strong :haha:

My vote goes to Hewitt ;)

Deboogle!.
12-26-2003, 05:10 PM
I like watching Hewitt play too, star... have you seen the 2001 USO QF with Andy? It's a great match - hewitt hit some shots that I'd definitely call "beautiful"

but I agree, at this point Andy's shown he's a little mentally together. I think Hewitt will be back though, next year.

star
12-26-2003, 05:11 PM
I wonder why you find that so funny.

Roddick staved off more break points than anyone on the tour this year. That shows mental strength. And that's just one of the reasons I say he has showed mental strength this year. Ending the year number one is another.

Deboogle!.
12-26-2003, 05:13 PM
Saving 5 match points and then going onto win (3 of those being title wins) shows some strength as well. Especially consdering one of them was in one of the biggest matches of his career with the pressure of the home crowd on him down 2-0 sets. Yea that 138 ace bomb was just a moment of mental mush.

And really, should a Marat fan be making jokes about mental strength?

His last few matches of the year notwithstanding, I think Ferrero is a fighter too.

Agassi is an absolute rock. One of my favorite things is that not only does he not give up, but he can single-handedly change his game plan and make a complete turnaround after a bad opening set or something. I mean, that's just really impressive.

maratski
12-26-2003, 05:16 PM
You shouldn't judge a guy on one single season and it wasn't even one great season. Roddick didn't improve till Queens so I don't see why he needs to get so much praise. Hewitt however was number one for more then a year and had two very succesfull seasons. Besides is Andy really mentally strong? Cause if he was, then he wouldn't have needed all the fake drama to win matches back in 2002.

maratski
12-26-2003, 05:19 PM
Can't a Marat fan have an opinion? :rolleyes:

He's not the headcase you all think he is you know. So he had a problem with his confidence a few times, but then who doesn't ;)

star
12-26-2003, 05:34 PM
Well of course you can have an opinion. I was just wondering on what facts you based your opinion.

And in your second sentence are you talking about Roddick or Safin? :)

star
12-26-2003, 05:38 PM
You shouldn't judge a guy on one single season and it wasn't even one great season. Roddick didn't improve till Queens so I don't see why he needs to get so much praise. Hewitt however was number one for more then a year and had two very succesfull seasons. Besides is Andy really mentally strong? Cause if he was, then he wouldn't have needed all the fake drama to win matches back in 2002.

I agree with you that in 2001 and 2002 Hewitt showed more mental strength than Roddick did this year. But I was judging on recent showing and that is all. If Hewitt plays regularly and is confident, I think he has more fight, heart, and desire that pays off in results than any other player right now. But I can't give him the edge for this year because he didn't produce results -- even though I think that was for various reasons.

Hewitt, as if you couldn't tell, is one of my top tier favorites. :)

*Ljubica*
12-26-2003, 05:38 PM
You shouldn't judge a guy on one single season and it wasn't even one great season. Roddick didn't improve till Queens so I don't see why he needs to get so much praise. Hewitt however was number one for more then a year and had two very succesfull seasons. Besides is Andy really mentally strong? Cause if he was, then he wouldn't have needed all the fake drama to win matches back in 2002.

Ilhame :worship: I so totally agree!! And whilst trying VERY hard not to get involved in one of these love/hate Andy Roddick things that seem to take over every thread on this forum, - I ask one question - if Andy is really so mentally strong, why did he fall apart in the Wimbledon semis against Federer as soon as he found an oponent with the skill and artistry to both return his serve and run rings around him on a grass court? And as for the US Open semi-final - Roddick didn't win that match - David lost it, - pure and simple, - he had some really bad line calls and his head couldn't cope at all, so all Roddick had to do in my opinion was stand there and David beat himself. I admit that David still has some way to go in the "mentally strong" stakes just as Marat has, and yes, Ilhame, of course a Marat fan has the right to voice their own opinions :)

As for Hewitt's game being beautiful - I still don't think it is - strong, brave, courageous, often unbeatable - all of those things without a doubt and I have the greatest respect for him, but whereas Coria has that amazing artistry and grace about the court (just think of those wonderful dropshots that are becoming his trademark!), Hewitt just scurries about without the artistry in my opinion.

Deboogle!.
12-26-2003, 05:41 PM
fake drama? Okkk... you obviously didn't see his 2001 RG match against Chang (or were his horrible cramps fake too?) or the 2003 AO 4th round and quarterfinal matches or one of the many other matches pre-Gilbert where Andy got through with a win after appearing down and out. Yes Andy has greatly improved with Brad and I think he'll continue to do so, but he was always a fighter, and the original post here said "player who always never gives up till the end" and that's what Andy does.

There's a difference between voicing your opinion and laughing at other people's opinions. No one will stop you from doing the former, and no one will react well to the latter.

star
12-26-2003, 05:42 PM
I won't argue with you that Coria is more beautiful than Hewitt. :)

But Hewitt is also graceful and amazingly fast!

Well, that is your opinion about the Nalbandian match, but you do have your bias just as I have mine. I think Roddick showed mental strength there.

Now if we are talking about whether I think Roddick has room for improvement, I do. I think he has a lot to work on in the mental department, and he is fortunate that his opponents have trouble in that area as well. I just can't think of anyone performing on the tour THIS year that has showed more mental strength than Roddick.

Shadow
12-26-2003, 05:45 PM
it has to be Hewitt.. especially in 2001 and 2002.

Second is Andre Agassi.

Deboogle!.
12-26-2003, 05:46 PM
David may have lost the match ultimately.... but Andy hit the ace at match point down all by himself. Being able to do that is mental strength, no matter how you slice it.

And in the Wimby SF, Andy didn't fall apart mentally... he was out-played, as the Fed fans will be very quick to point out.

Not to say Andy hasn't fallen apart because surely, he has... the 2001 Hewitt USO QF comes first to mind, but considering that was his first full year on the tour, he was just 19 and it was his biggest match to date, I don't really fault him too much for that.

maratski
12-26-2003, 05:51 PM
I meant that safin isn't always a headcase ;)

You peeps seem to have forgotten about his match against Lappentti or are you in denial? ;)

Deboogle!.
12-26-2003, 05:55 PM
I didn't see the match, I've only read about it. I read the post-match press conference Andy had and he was pretty serious about getting whatever had been bothering him looked at afterwards to make sure nothing was wrong... so whatever. I've read a lot of things both fans and non-fans have to say and oddly enough pretty much every fan says he was really in pain and every non-fan says he was faking. The world will never know for sure I guess :shrug:

And anyway, even if you buy into the idea that it was a "very opportune time-out" - I don't see how you can equate that to being mentally weak and/or not fighting til the end.

Anyway.... how about that mentally strong Hewitt? :)

maratski
12-26-2003, 06:06 PM
When you're mentally weak sometimes you do ANYTHING to win ;)

*Ljubica*
12-26-2003, 06:12 PM
David may have lost the match ultimately.... but Andy hit the ace at match point down all by himself. Being able to do that is mental strength, no matter how you slice it.

And in the Wimby SF, Andy didn't fall apart mentally... he was out-played, as the Fed fans will be very quick to point out.

Not to say Andy hasn't fallen apart because surely, he has... the 2001 Hewitt USO QF comes first to mind, but considering that was his first full year on the tour, he was just 19 and it was his biggest match to date, I don't really fault him too much for that.


I don't necessarily agree that firing down an ace at matchpoint shows mental strength - Goran Ivanisevic spent years doing that in difficult moments, and most people were quick to describe him as being a total "headcase" who was serving an ace because he didn't know what else to do - and I don't mean that in any nasty way against Goran as he was always a great favourite of mine. Obviously any player will (or should) attempt to do their very best on match point and give themselves the best possible chance of saving it - with Andy that would fairly obviously be to serve as well as he can, - with someone like Coria it may just be to keep the ball in play in the hope that he can out-rally someone from the back of the court.

As to the Wimbledon semi-final, yes he WAS completely outplayed by Federer, but I still think he fell apart mentally - I was there and I was watching his body language closely - particularly at change of ends. He just couldn't find an answer to Federer and seemed to "fall apart" and I actually saw him do very similar things against both Goran and Greg Rusedski in previous years at Wimbledon, although obviously of course he was much younger then.

maratski
12-26-2003, 06:18 PM
Serving an ace when being a matchpoint down is just a proof of being confident on that exact moment, but it doesn't say much about mental strength in general.

I agree with Rosie though about the Andy-Coria part.

Vass
12-26-2003, 06:32 PM
Hewitt! he'll die if that's what it takes to win. ;)

Deboogle!.
12-26-2003, 06:40 PM
Being able to be confident at a moment like that, in my opinion, shows mental strength. Just my opinion... I never called Goran a headcase so it's not like I'm being hypocritical. If he was able to do that time and time again, then I'd say he wasn't a headcase as much as people said he was. It was something Pete could always do, too, and I think it was a sign of his mental strength as well. You guys won't get me to budge on this so you might as well stop trying ;). And if Coria were able to out-rally someone and hit a winner at match point down, I'd say the same thing about him, or anyone else, but considering Andy was able to do it 5 times all year (and one being a Slam QF, one being a Slam SF, one being a TMS Final, and one being another tournament SF - so, not exactly in 'little moments') to me that means something.

Plus, the other people we're talking about in this thread - Hewitt, Andre, haven't ALWAYS been able to keep their cool and work through it - but most of the time, they can, and so can Andy. I'm not saying Andy hasn't ever flipped out and lost b/c of it, and surely Hewitt and Andre have at points as well. They're human, they can't be perfect all the time!

Fedex
12-26-2003, 07:19 PM
I dont think roddicks mentally tough! I dont think Federer is either! When he loses the 1st set or down 2 sets, its very hard for him 2 come back. Please Andy fans, I know what youre going to say. You'll probobly bring up his US Open semi final with Nalby. Well as you very well know Nalby nearly won that in straight sets. Had he not been injured he would have won that one easily. Not a sign of mental toughness from Roddick, but more fatigue from David. My vote would go to Hewitt

star
12-26-2003, 07:53 PM
IF

I don't think Roddick is the strongest mentally ever, but for THIS year, if I had to choose, I would choose him. And it has a lot to do with the aggregate of his year, not just one or two matches.

I would choose Hewitt, but Hewitt did not have good results this year that one could support choosing him. He showed remarkable mental toughness in Davis Cup the in the last two ties, and so I am hoping we will still see that toughness next year. But, for THIS year, I can't choose Lleyton.

Deboogle!.
12-26-2003, 07:56 PM
hahaha 5 for 5, Fedex you never cease to amaze me.

Hmm.... last I checked, "nearly won" isn't equal to "winning" :scratch: ...it's not Andy's fault Dahveeeeed gets hurt b/c Andy hits so hard :)

J. Corwin
12-26-2003, 08:13 PM
I dont think roddicks mentally tough! I dont think Federer is either! When he loses the 1st set or down 2 sets, its very hard for him 2 come back. Please Andy fans, I know what youre going to say. You'll probobly bring up his US Open semi final with Nalby. Well as you very well know Nalby nearly won that in straight sets. Had he not been injured he would have won that one easily. Not a sign of mental toughness from Roddick, but more fatigue from David. My vote would go to Hewitt

Sure David got tired. But Andy needed to be strong enough upstairs to hang around long enough. If Andy had mentally collapsed, he would have lost the match in straights.

Deboogle!.
12-26-2003, 08:22 PM
yes Jace. Plus, Andy himself said that probably a year ago he wouldn't have been able to stick it out. So he knew it was what was going on between the ears too. Oddly enough, several people have called the match in question the comeback of the year, not the choke of the year...interesting :)

*Ljubica*
12-26-2003, 08:31 PM
hahaha 5 for 5, Fedex you never cease to amaze me.

Hmm.... last I checked, "nearly won" isn't equal to "winning" :scratch: ...it's not Andy's fault Dahveeeeed gets hurt b/c Andy hits so hard :)

OK, OK I KNOW I am rising to the bait, - but that comment is total utter complete *****. David's injury had nothing at all to do with how hard Roddick hits the ball - unless of course you are insinuating that Andy purposely hits the ball hard at opponents to injure them, which even I am sure is not true! And how come he then beat Roddick in Basel when he was much more severely injured than at the US? I refuse to get drawn into the usual argument about US Open scheduling, and how Roddick had much more rest time before the semi-final than some other players, even though it is highly tempting when faced with comments like this. As I have said before, David lost that match due to tiredness, injury, bad line calls and, I admit, his own mental fragility which is something he is trying hard to work on for the future. Unlike some Roddick fans, I would never be blinded by bias enough not to see my own player's faults. OK sorry for the rant - just had to get it off my chest!!

star
12-26-2003, 08:36 PM
Rosie, there wasn't any reason to take a swipe at Andy's fans. Except maybe for the fact that you don't like some of them.

Actually, Andy has lots of faults. Some of his fans disagree about what those faults are and what some see as faults others don't. But from what I see in frequenting the Andy forum, there isn't one who doesn't think that Andy has a lot of room for improvement in many areas.

Also, some of those bad line calls that unhinged David weren't actually bad line calls. :)

WyverN
12-26-2003, 08:37 PM
Federer came back from match points 3 times this year to win the match.

star
12-26-2003, 08:39 PM
I really liked what I saw from Federer at TMC. I was thinking that he was just going to sail after that performance. But now with the coaching upset, I don't know what to think. I guess I will just have to wait and see.

Deboogle!.
12-26-2003, 08:43 PM
uh.... David said it himself after he reinjured his wrist in Basel. He said that returning Andy's serves hurt because they are so fast. I forget which specific article it was, but I wasn't making it up and I wasn't saying it to be mean. Unlike many of those here who so openly and viscerally dislike Andy, I don't dislike anyone enough to just make up insults. And I just made a joke out of it, calm down, hence my smiley. I don't dislike David, not at all, so you can stop being so defensive.

Did you really need to add this line: "Unlike some Roddick fans, I would never be blinded by bias enough not to see my own player's faults." That was a total non-sequitor and if you read what any of us have to say, you'd see it's not true. I talk about Andy's faults ALL the time and so do most of the Andy fans that post on MTF. you have to keep in mind that we can't say anything good about Andy without him subsequently being attacked. In that kind of atmosphere, you're gonna get a lot more of us defending him than talking about his faults or anything else. But in the rare occasion a thread here remains a calm and mature discussion, you'll find that most of us consider Andy pretty objectively. It's not like he's the only player any of us like or anything.

Dirk
12-26-2003, 08:50 PM
Roger has comeback from two sets down twice in his career in slams. Roger and Andy are both mentally strong, but Hewitt and Andre are more so. Roger and Andy have both been getting better and will so mentally. Hewitt will fall apart because he can only beat the better guys if they let down. Andre sometimes losses it too like at the Cup. I felt bad for him, he was empty in the eyes.

*Ljubica*
12-26-2003, 08:53 PM
Rosie, there wasn't any reason to take a swipe at Andy's fans. Except maybe for the fact that you don't like some of them.

Actually, Andy has lots of faults. Some of his fans disagree about what those faults are and what some see as faults others don't. But from what I see in frequenting the Andy forum, there isn't one who doesn't think that Andy has a lot of room for improvement in many areas.

Also, some of those bad line calls that unhinged David weren't actually bad line calls. :)

Dear Star - I don't actually know any Andy fans personally, so it's not true to say that I don't like them - everyone is entitled to their own opinions - that is part of life :)

I guess that one particular comment just really made me mad for a minute, as I freely admit that the match in question is the only tennis match in my life that has ever driven me to tears, and I actually still get choked whenever I think about it (please don't laugh!) So I suppose I just got a little "unhinged" too - which I guess could go to prove that me and David would make a perfect couple!!!! :inlove: as we could get "unhinged" together!!

MisterQ
12-26-2003, 08:55 PM
I have never seen a player who is 100% mentally strong all the time --- even competitors like Borg and Sampras fell apart at times.

Having said that, of the current players I think Hewitt of 2001-02 displayed the greatest mental strength, followed closely by Agassi (in the years since his 1999 comeback).

star
12-26-2003, 08:56 PM
No, no. I've had my favorite tennis players lose to a player that I loathed and it is truly distressing. So I do understand. But, I think that just because Andy's fans see it from another viewpoint doesn't automatically discredit their view.

It is so disheartening to have your player up two sets and then lose the match. It's a dreadful thing that has happened to my favorites through out the year. Gnashing of teeth and time is the only cure. :)

star
12-26-2003, 08:57 PM
Everybody unravels sometime on the court, Mister Q. And if it is a player I don't like, I am evil enough to admit that I truly do enjoy it. :)

undomiele
12-26-2003, 09:02 PM
Puh-leaze. Roddick the most mentally strong person of the season???? :rolleyes: What a joke!!!!! (IMO of course ;) ). Roddick has **ALWAYS** heavily depended on a home crowd to help him out of tough situations... his so-called "mental rock" is *directly* correlated to the quantity and quality of his fans and thats the real truth IMO! Now until he starts winning REAL tournaments in Europe and elsewhere you'd have a hard time persuading ME that he is one of the most mentally strong people on the tour. And I invite him to prove me wrong this year but until then I couldnt disagree more with the Roddick fans here on this topic.

Roddick is a loooong way from reaching the mental fortitudes of Agassi (who's been to Hell and back) or Hewitt. But then so are most players. Which is why Agassi rocks, and Hewitt needs to get his crap together.

*Ljubica*
12-26-2003, 09:06 PM
No, no. I've had my favorite tennis players lose to a player that I loathed and it is truly distressing. So I do understand. But, I think that just because Andy's fans see it from another viewpoint doesn't automatically discredit their view.

It is so disheartening to have your player up two sets and then lose the match. It's a dreadful thing that has happened to my favorites through out the year. Gnashing of teeth and time is the only cure. :)

Thanks Star - and you know I don't "loathe" Andy at all - "hatred" and "loathing" are far too strong words even though I freely admit I don't like him too much!.

And Bunk - sorry if I got a bit too "defensive" - as you said yourself, if you like a player it is your instinct to "defend" them if you feel they are being "attacked" by others, - I will ALWAYS defend David because I admit to being crazy about him(!), but I don't mean it to be in any way offensive to you, to Star or to anyone else :)

Deboogle!.
12-26-2003, 09:07 PM
no one said Andy was as mentally strong as Andre :confused:

However, at 21, I don't think Andre's mentality was particularly solid as a rock, either.

maratski
12-26-2003, 09:07 PM
:worship:

I didn't want to bring up the Mickey Mouse tournaments that Andy used to play...;)

J. Corwin
12-26-2003, 09:07 PM
Puh-leaze. Roddick the most mentally strong person of the season???? :rolleyes: What a joke!!!!! (IMO of course ;) ). Roddick has **ALWAYS** heavily depended on a home crowd to help him out of tough situations... his so-called "mental rock" is *directly* correlated to the quantity and quality of his fans and thats the real truth IMO! Now until he starts winning REAL tournaments in Europe and elsewhere you'd have a hard time persuading ME that he is one of the most mentally strong people on the tour. And I invite him to prove me wrong this year but until then I couldnt disagree more with the Roddick fans here on this topic.

Roddick is a loooong way from reaching the mental fortitudes of Agassi (who's been to Hell and back) or Hewitt. But then so are most players. Which is why Agassi rocks, and Hewitt needs to get his crap together.

Even if he was in front of his home crowd, Andy was very nearly losing in that SF against David. However, he still managed to come back.

So Queens isn't a REAL tournament in Europe for you?

J. Corwin
12-26-2003, 09:08 PM
:worship:

I didn't want to bring up the Mickey Mouse tournaments that Andy used to play...;)

What does that have to do with Andy's overall 2003 mentality??

maratski
12-26-2003, 09:08 PM
queens is the only one....;)

He never had the guts to play big tourneys like Barcelona!!

maratski
12-26-2003, 09:10 PM
My comment had to do with this

Now until he starts winning REAL tournaments in Europe and elsewhere you'd have a hard time persuading ME that he is one of the most mentally strong people on the tour.

J. Corwin
12-26-2003, 09:10 PM
queens is the only one....;)

He never had the guts to play big tourneys like Barcelona!!

And so with one tournament I have effectively nullified undomiele's argument.

maratski
12-26-2003, 09:13 PM
I think not. Andy never played with the big boys in Europe and one tournament IMO doesn't change anything ;)

J. Corwin
12-26-2003, 09:16 PM
That's why maybe you should remind undomiele to never use the terms "never", "hasn't ever", or insinuate such in his/her posts.

*Ljubica*
12-26-2003, 09:19 PM
queens is the only one....;)

He never had the guts to play big tourneys like Barcelona!!

I actually don't think Queens is that big a deal these days as so many players opt to play in Halle in the same week, so the competition is not so strong as it was a few years ago. I used to go regularly every year, - but now I don't bother, because unless you have main court tickets there isn't too much to watch on the outside courts apart from a large number of British wildcards!

maratski
12-26-2003, 09:22 PM
My point was just that Andy often opts to play tournaments where he is a high seed and the other players are ranked a whole lot lower then him.

star
12-26-2003, 09:22 PM
I think not. Andy never played with the big boys in Europe and one tournament IMO doesn't change anything ;)

The problem is that you are essentially saying that until Andy wins a big tournament on clay, he can't be considered mentally strong.

I disagree with that.

But I do think that Andy has to win in Europe to become a complete player. But I don't think he will ever be a great player on clay. I just don't see that he has the movement for that, but I don't mind if he proves me wrong.

I'm not saying that Andy is the strongest mentally to ever grace the game, but for THIS year, where no one was a mental rock, I think he gets the nod.

undomiele
12-26-2003, 09:24 PM
I think David lost that game more than Roddick won it. He was playing with a hurt wrist and chest problem I think it was and he completely paced himself to win in 3 sets instead of 5. Thats my take on it.

BESIDES, the whole point was that Roddick was playing at the US Open with all its scheduling controversies and hundreds of fans rooting for him. If that match had happened in say, Latin America, I have no doubt in my mind that Roddick would have lost. That game was more of a testament to Nalby's resolve for the first three sets I think to overcome his tiredness and injuries than Roddicks easy pummeling of a visibly tired player. We all know that Nalbandian definitely has the goods to beat Roddick many many times in the future.

As for Queens, I said he has to start winning REAL tournamentS PLURAL. [ Besides, Federer didnt play at Queens... ;) ] All Im saying here is that for a so-called #1 tennis player he suffers a shocking deficit of non-US tournament wins and I think that this deficit has a LOT to do with his dependency on crowd support to win.

And its not like they were throwing bananas at him at Queens anyway.... ;)

maratski
12-26-2003, 09:25 PM
I already forgot this was about players who are mentally strong, I just mentioned a fact that I noticed. I'm also not only talking about European claycourt tournaments ;)

undomiele
12-26-2003, 09:40 PM
That's why maybe you should remind undomiele to never use the terms "never", "hasn't ever", or insinuate such in his/her posts.

Lighten up Jackson! Ifyou should look over my post you'll see that I said everything "IMO" and .. "I think". As well as "real tournamentS" (plural)...
;) hehe. Look I wrote that post to shake the boat a little but it also just happens to be my opinion... and I guess I was successful. I shook up the boat! ;)

star
12-26-2003, 09:47 PM
So, you admit that we shouldn't take anything you say seriously?

I'll remember that in the future.

However, I think that it is just a cover for your overlooking Queens.

Maybe, I'm a little odd, but I don't really consider Queens to be a European tournament. It's a British tournament.

J. Corwin
12-26-2003, 09:51 PM
Lighten up Jackson! Ifyou should look over my post you'll see that I said everything "IMO" and .. "I think". As well as "real tournamentS" (plural)...
;) hehe. Look I wrote that post to shake the boat a little but it also just happens to be my opinion... and I guess I was successful. I shook up the boat! ;)

Oh you can shake the boat all you want. It's fun. :)

Btw, as a side note...just because you wrote "tournamentS", that doesn't change the fact that in the English language it means the same thing.
"...until he wins REAL tournaments in Europe..." stipulates he hasn't won ANY real tournament in Europe yet.

sorry. I'm in asinine mode. ;)

*Ljubica*
12-26-2003, 09:51 PM
So, you admit that we shouldn't take anything you say seriously?

I'll remember that in the future.

However, I think that it is just a cover for your overlooking Queens.

Maybe, I'm a little odd, but I don't really consider Queens to be a European tournament. It's a British tournament.

Sorry Star - but Britain and Europe are all one and the same thing - we have been part of the EEC since 1975 and pretty much all of "us Brits" see oursleves very much as Europeans.

maratski
12-26-2003, 09:52 PM
No one ever thought you geography? ;)

J. Corwin
12-26-2003, 09:54 PM
Britain is not part of continental Europe but is still part of Europe in the textbooks. How one is willing to view it of course is entirely a function of subjectivity.

star
12-26-2003, 09:56 PM
Yup. I think of it as British and different from Europe. Maybe I am influenced by my sister-in-law who Scottish, and wouldn't ever call herself European although she is fluent in French and a very sophisticated woman (just in case anyone cared to take a potshot at her) :)

undomiele
12-26-2003, 09:57 PM
Star. I really think you are missing my real point here, ie: that Roddick has problems playing outside of North America. This is hardly a new idea. Everybody has discussed this in this forum many many times. And a lot of people, including myself, believe that that has a lot to do with the fact that Roddick NEEDS strong crowd support (not neutral, not bad, but STRONG crowd support) to pull him out of tight situations. How can he possess a strong mental fortitude if he has problems dealing with neutral and/or hostile crowds???? Please address THIS point (which was my overarching point) if you want ME and other people to take YOU seriously.

star
12-26-2003, 09:58 PM
And I am a history major. British history was a seperate course from European history.

But if y'all want to say it is Europe, well then, hey! Andy won a really nice EUROPEAN tournament. ;)

star
12-26-2003, 09:59 PM
Star. I really think you are missing my real point here, ie: that Roddick has problems playing outside of North America. This is hardly a new idea. Everybody has discussed this in this forum many many times. And a lot of people, including myself, believe that that has a lot to do with the fact that Roddick NEEDS strong crowd support (not neutral, not bad, but STRONG crowd support) to pull him out of tight situations. How can he possess a strong mental fortitude if he has problems dealing with neutral and/or hostile crowds???? Please address THIS point (which was my overarching point) if you want ME and other people to take YOU seriously.

lol Whatever in the world made you think I missed your point? It's one that's been made ever so often.

Just because I didn't respond didn't mean I didn't understand you.

*Ljubica*
12-26-2003, 10:06 PM
And I am a history major. British history was a seperate course from European history.

But if y'all want to say it is Europe, well then, hey! Andy won a really nice EUROPEAN tournament. ;)

:haha: Well as I think I am the only person born in Britain and posting on this board at this moment in time (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), I can honestly say that I feel 100% European and never think of my birth-place as a separate entity at all. Even my passport says "European Union" on the front cover - I just went to check :) Maybe it's because I live in the south so it's actually quicker and easier for me to catch a train to France than to the North of England - and as for Scotland(!!!) - I used to live there for about 5 years and with no disrespect to Star's sister-in-law (who I'm sure is a lovely person), they are so insular there they think anyone born south of the border is a "foreigner"!

undomiele
12-26-2003, 10:16 PM
Oh you can shake the boat all you want. It's fun. :)

Btw, as a side note...just because you wrote "tournamentS", that doesn't change the fact that in the English language it means the same thing.
"...until he wins REAL tournaments in Europe..." stipulates he hasn't won ANY real tournament in Europe yet.

sorry. I'm in asinine mode. ;)


ALL RIGHT! ALL RIGHT you got me! Kudos to Roddick for winning a real tournament in the UK and/or Europe!!!

Now can we please stop the Queens skewering??? All I wanted was people to consider the argument as to how Roddick cannot be considered a "mental rock", which is a strong and valid one. Thats it~! Thats all! Thank you!

star
12-26-2003, 10:43 PM
:haha: Well as I think I am the only person born in Britain and posting on this board at this moment in time (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), I can honestly say that I feel 100% European and never think of my birth-place as a separate entity at all. Even my passport says "European Union" on the front cover - I just went to check :) Maybe it's because I live in the south so it's actually quicker and easier for me to catch a train to France than to the North of England - and as for Scotland(!!!) - I used to live there for about 5 years and with no disrespect to Star's sister-in-law (who I'm sure is a lovely person), they are so insular there they think anyone born south of the border is a "foreigner"!

Well, yes, I knew I was letting her in for a slagging, but she did live in Oxford for more years than she would have liked because my brother was working at the University there. She studied in France, and lived in the U.S. for about 3 years as well. She also comes from a well educated family, and all of her sisters have gone abroad to live as well.

So, don't go hurling brickbats at Kate. She's a delightful person with a self deprecating sense of humor and she doesn't take herself or others too seriously. But of course, she doesn't like the English all that much and isn't such a fan of the Royal family either. And she wouldn't at all be surprised that you are looking down your nose at the Scots. :)

J. Corwin
12-26-2003, 10:59 PM
ALL RIGHT! ALL RIGHT you got me! Kudos to Roddick for winning a real tournament in the UK and/or Europe!!!

Now can we please stop the Queens skewering??? All I wanted was people to consider the argument as to how Roddick cannot be considered a "mental rock", which is a strong and valid one. Thats it~! Thats all! Thank you!

No need to get your undies in a wad. :)

I agree with you that he should win more big tournaments in the rest of Europe.

Deboogle!.
12-26-2003, 11:34 PM
so now a tournament is only real unless Roger plays in it? ooooookkkkk

Queen's is a long-respected tournament where many top grass-court players play and have always played so to insinuate anything about it not being "real" or a good solid title win is well... silly, imo.

We've had the "Andy needs to do better in Europe especially on clay" argument about 204729047206 times in the past couple months on this board, and that's only since I've been here. We are all in agreement about this so I don't see where the arguing is.

Besides, people are making it sound like Andy's never won a match outside of North America or something. Lest we forget the SF appearances at the AO and Wimby? He did make the SF at a Clay TMS tournament, and had an excellent shot of making the 4th round or further in the 2001 RG had he not had to pull out. Yes he needs to improve a LOT but there's also no reason to be confident that he WON'T.

However, I don't see where any of this has to do with mental strength anyway.

Havok
12-26-2003, 11:44 PM
weeeeeeeeee, here comes Rosie and her Roddick/federer bullshit once again. Rosie have you ever notices that some rivalries are just dominated by one person over another? you keep on doing this crap about Roddick and Federer, when you can literally say this about anyone. what happens every single time Roger meets up with Nablandian? Daveeeeeed :baby: wins it :rocker2: Safin is pidgeon to Santoro, Agassi was to Sapmras, and the list goes on for all the top players.
now imo when you talk about mentally strong, Agassi and Hewitt are on the top of the list, bar none. taking into consideration the 2003 season, i would also throw up Roddick, reasons were already mentioned in this thread in abundance. and i see Ferrero making this list as well, he just has to imrpove on it a little bit

Fedex
12-27-2003, 12:17 AM
Well, I must say i cant believe some people actually think that match with David showed GREAT mental strength. Hey, In Andy's match with David in Basel, I think Nalbandian may have been injured in that, but he still kicked his a** :p I think David is also mentally tough. I tell yea, youre going to see more of this guy next year(beating andy)! I predict if his wrist is better, he'll win a slam!!

Buddy
12-27-2003, 12:27 AM
I'm sorry my topic caused a heated arugument...but I was just trying to see the different views of everyone...

How about we compromise? Everyone this year is strong mentally? and for the coming 2004,2005...as well?

undomiele
12-27-2003, 12:38 AM
so now a tournament is only real unless Roger plays in it? ooooookkkkk

Queen's is a long-respected tournament where many top grass-court players play and have always played so to insinuate anything about it not being "real" or a good solid title win is well... silly, imo.

We've had the "Andy needs to do better in Europe especially on clay" argument about 204729047206 times in the past couple months on this board, and that's only since I've been here. We are all in agreement about this so I don't see where the arguing is.

Besides, people are making it sound like Andy's never won a match outside of North America or something. Lest we forget the SF appearances at the AO and Wimby? He did make the SF at a Clay TMS tournament, and had an excellent shot of making the 4th round or further in the 2001 RG had he not had to pull out. Yes he needs to improve a LOT but there's also no reason to be confident that he WON'T.

However, I don't see where any of this has to do with mental strength anyway.

Bunk, the dust has already settled on this argument tween Jackson, star and I. :rolleyes: It was a good tussle but I frankly don't care about this anymore. Don't prolong a fight over Roddick when we don't have to.. Lets move on! :)

undomiele
12-27-2003, 12:46 AM
I agree Fedex. I think Nalbandian can be a pretty tough guy. I wouldnt say he's the strongest mentally but then who really is? Everybody has their bad days... But Ive been really impressed with Nalbandian this year. Remember when he was just a fluke Finals-Winbledon player?? Well now people see him differently and thats great. He deserves this newfound respect. :) I think he's usually a pretty tough mental player....

though that TMC match against federer was absolutely pitiful. Talk about having a bad day!

star
12-27-2003, 12:54 AM
I'm sorry my topic caused a heated arugument...but I was just trying to see the different views of everyone...

How about we compromise? Everyone this year is strong mentally? and for the coming 2004,2005...as well?


Or everyone isnt strong mentally. That seems to be what we decided. :)

Although most have respect for Lleyton's mental strength.

Deboogle!.
12-27-2003, 02:34 AM
yes I agree, Nalbandian definitely has fighter qualities. I don't think I've ever seen him at a point where I would call him "mentally fragile" - don't they call him the ox or something?

Lleyton is one of the few people I'd say is strong enough to be able to will himself to win. DC against Ferrero is case in point. As I said in some other thread.... you knew he was going to win, even when he was down. :worship:

JeLuliA88
12-27-2003, 09:26 AM
Hewitt and Roddick are both mentally strong, they pretty much fight till the end...hewitt coming back from the dead against federer @ Davis Cup and Roddick saving match pt against Nalbandian @US Open (maybe the crowd helped him but nonetheless he came back and won).

*Ljubica*
12-27-2003, 11:37 AM
weeeeeeeeee, here comes Rosie and her Roddick/federer bullshit once again. Rosie have you ever notices that some rivalries are just dominated by one person over another? you keep on doing this crap about Roddick and Federer, when you can literally say this about anyone. what happens every single time Roger meets up with Nablandian? Daveeeeeed :baby: wins it :rocker2: Safin is pidgeon to Santoro, Agassi was to Sapmras, and the list goes on for all the top players.
now imo when you talk about mentally strong, Agassi and Hewitt are on the top of the list, bar none. taking into consideration the 2003 season, i would also throw up Roddick, reasons were already mentioned in this thread in abundance. and i see Ferrero making this list as well, he just has to imrpove on it a little bit

Dear Naldo, - just because you don't agree with my views does not mean they are bullshit - and as one of Nalbandian's biggest fans on this board I don't think you need to remind me of his successes over Roger :) - even though you fail to mention that the last time they played Federer won extremely easily much to my disappointment. I am late answering this because of the "time difference" as I've only just seen your post, and I think Buddy has said it all when he suggests we all compromise and move on. But just please remember that just because people may have differing views from you does not mean that you are 100% right and everyone else is talking bullshit! And just for the record, whatever impression you may have gleaned from my posts, I am not a particular Federer fan - I just happen to think he is a much better player than Roddick and much more entertaining to watch and no one will change my opinion.

Oh and by the way, - I agree with you about Hewitt - I voted for him right at the beginning of this poll.

Experimentee
12-27-2003, 11:47 AM
Hewitt and Agassi are the strongest mentally. Most of the time, Hewitt's mental strength is the only reason he wins some matches against better opponents.
Coetzer used to be mentally strong, but shes not really like that anymore, shes choked a few times this year when she should have won :(

Experimentee
12-27-2003, 12:26 PM
I must say it seems like theres an argument about Roddick in every thread I've looked into recently. Its getting rather boring.
If people hated Roddick so much I'd have thought they wouldnt talk about him. I dont like Roddick and I guess thats why I rarely talk about him or read about him, but thats just me.

yanchr
12-27-2003, 02:35 PM
Yup, Experimentee

Roddick has drawn too much attention really, I mean, TOO much. Would you guys just calm down when you see 'RODDICK'?

OK... as long as the discussion (not quarrel) is reasonable and well under control, it's still interesting in itself LOL

star
12-27-2003, 02:45 PM
I must say it seems like theres an argument about Roddick in every thread I've looked into recently. Its getting rather boring.
If people hated Roddick so much I'd have thought they wouldnt talk about him. I dont like Roddick and I guess thats why I rarely talk about him or read about him, but thats just me.

:bigclap:

Deboogle!.
12-27-2003, 02:58 PM
I must say it seems like theres an argument about Roddick in every thread I've looked into recently. Its getting rather boring.
If people hated Roddick so much I'd have thought they wouldnt talk about him. I dont like Roddick and I guess thats why I rarely talk about him or read about him, but thats just me.

Could you please share your wisdom with your MTF peers? :)

J. Corwin
12-27-2003, 08:37 PM
I must say it seems like theres an argument about Roddick in every thread I've looked into recently. Its getting rather boring.
If people hated Roddick so much I'd have thought they wouldnt talk about him. I dont like Roddick and I guess thats why I rarely talk about him or read about him, but thats just me.

Very true. Which is why some people who don't like Roddick should stop talking about him at every possible moment.

undomiele
12-27-2003, 09:50 PM
oh whatever! :rolleyes: all you roddick fans should get off your high horses and stop pretending that roddick haters are the only ones starting arguments here. Its a two way street buds and the last couple of battles on this same very topic are evidence of it.

Deboogle!.
12-27-2003, 10:03 PM
Ok but the point is that we can't say anything good about Andy or it/he gets attacked. Then we get defensive (a normal, expected human reaction). It's not like we go in threads where someone says something good about Federer or whomever and say "no way that's not true he got lucky," and that's what many of the roddick haters do, and the evidence is all over the board so don't even deny it. Find a place where an Andy fan did something like that though, please.

This argument started when a couple of Andy fans said we thought Andy was mentally strong and we got LAUGHED at. If someone had chosen to ignore the comment they laughed at, or even had presented their opinion in a mature and friendly way, this never would've turned into an argument. For evidence of this, venture to the Andy board for a great discussion we have going on with NO fighting at all.

undomiele
12-27-2003, 10:23 PM
I admit l laughed at it and I still do. In the same way many tennis fans would laugh at the idea of Hewitt winning the French Open. I just thought it was funny and Im not apologizing. The key thing though was that I also presented a valid logical argument as to why I thought it was laughable and star herself recognized it. And for the record, I've never started a thread dissing Andy. I intensely hate such negative forums but they exist and I hate the fact that they do. So don't lump me into a generalization as to what Roddick haters do. I DO have a life outside of the guy and I would appreciate if some of you would stop talking about him so much.

And I really don't care if Roddick fans diss Federer or whomever as long as they can present a logical argument. Ill repeat that: as long as they present a reasonable and logical argument. The thing is, youre obviously a big fan of the guy and thats cool and it hurts when other ppl laugh at Roddick but then argue me for the argument and not for the fact that I found the idea laughable. And thats what no one here did. They all started hammering me on the Queens thing (which I apologized for) when it really did nothing to change the thrust of my presented argument.

I could only conclude that they were overtly sensitive to what and how I was saying it, but puh-leaze, we are all adults here and I did write "IMO", "I think", etc several times throughout my posts regarding Roddick NOT being the strongest mentally IN MY OPINION. So thats all it was: a harmless opinion backed by a valid argument that all of you Andy lovers were completely welcome to ignore. But you didnt, and instead attacked me on things that had precious little to do with the overarching argument.

You guys are just a little too sensitive and need to chill out. Its just a tennis forum! sheesh

Ma. Estefania
12-27-2003, 10:31 PM
Ermm... :confused: it seems I lost a sort of big "discussion" here....well.... :P

Anyway....about the question of the topic, I think it would be Hewitt, no matter the environment (except at the AO, and at Barcelona 2000 ---> Davis Cup Final) he always goes out of hard situations. That's something I admire of him.

J. Corwin
12-27-2003, 10:57 PM
I admit l laughed at it and I still do. In the same way many tennis fans would laugh at the idea of Hewitt winning the French Open. I just thought it was funny and Im not apologizing. The key thing though was that I also presented a valid logical argument as to why I thought it was laughable and star herself recognized it. And for the record, I've never started a thread dissing Andy. I intensely hate such negative forums but they exist and I hate the fact that they do. So don't lump me into a generalization as to what Roddick haters do. I DO have a life outside of the guy and I would appreciate if some of you would stop talking about him so much.

And I really don't care if Roddick fans diss Federer or whomever as long as they can present a logical argument. Ill repeat that: as long as they present a reasonable and logical argument. The thing is, youre obviously a big fan of the guy and thats cool and it hurts when other ppl laugh at Roddick but then argue me for the argument and not for the fact that I found the idea laughable. And thats what no one here did. They all started hammering me on the Queens thing (which I apologized for) when it really did nothing to change the thrust of my presented argument.

I could only conclude that they were overtly sensitive to what and how I was saying it, but puh-leaze, we are all adults here and I did write "IMO", "I think", etc several times throughout my posts regarding Roddick NOT being the strongest mentally IN MY OPINION. So thats all it was: a harmless opinion backed by a valid argument that all of you Andy lovers were completely welcome to ignore. But you didnt, and instead attacked me on things that had precious little to do with the overarching argument.

You guys are just a little too sensitive and need to chill out. Its just a tennis forum! sheesh

I think you're being too sensitive about it. It was never a personal attack...nor an attack for that matter.

undomiele
12-27-2003, 11:04 PM
Oh right, are you telling me you weren't irritated at all by what I said? :rolleyes: Your response posts suggest otherwise Jackson.

star
12-27-2003, 11:36 PM
Knowing Jackson as I do, I would say that Jackson was having a laugh on a little pedantic point that tickled his fancy. That was all.

J. Corwin
12-27-2003, 11:52 PM
Knowing Jackson as I do, I would say that Jackson was having a laugh on a little pedantic point that tickled his fancy. That was all.

Exactly. I was amused and had my opinion. I wasn't irritated. I never let message boards irritate me. To bring back an old phrase I used: "They're only pixels on a computer screen".

I have never used the rolls eyes smilie in this whole thread, btw.

Really, I'm not here to pick fights. :)

Chloe le Bopper
12-28-2003, 12:04 AM
And really, should a Marat fan be making jokes about mental strength?


*sigh* :rolleyes:

Provided that she is not Marat, yes, she should crack jokes about it all she wants. Liking Marat does not in any way make her Marat, nor does it mean that she is responsible for any of his actions or qualities.

Again: :rolleyes:

Chloe le Bopper
12-28-2003, 12:06 AM
By the way - Roddick is obviously mentally tough, but he's still got nothing on Hewitt :p

Chloe le Bopper
12-28-2003, 12:08 AM
uh.... David said it himself after he reinjured his wrist in Basel. He said that returning Andy's serves hurt because they are so fast. I forget which specific article it was, but I wasn't making it up and I wasn't saying it to be mean. Unlike many of those here who so openly and viscerally dislike Andy, I don't dislike anyone enough to just make up insults. And I just made a joke out of it, calm down, hence my smiley. I don't dislike David, not at all, so you can stop being so defensive.

Did you really need to add this line: "Unlike some Roddick fans, I would never be blinded by bias enough not to see my own player's faults." That was a total non-sequitor and if you read what any of us have to say, you'd see it's not true. I talk about Andy's faults ALL the time and so do most of the Andy fans that post on MTF. you have to keep in mind that we can't say anything good about Andy without him subsequently being attacked. In that kind of atmosphere, you're gonna get a lot more of us defending him than talking about his faults or anything else. But in the rare occasion a thread here remains a calm and mature discussion, you'll find that most of us consider Andy pretty objectively. It's not like he's the only player any of us like or anything.
Us Us Us We We We

Cult Cult!

Chloe le Bopper
12-28-2003, 12:09 AM
The above was intended as a joke, although I have to be honest.... once you break out into the "we's" and "us's" and speak for the collective, I cease reading any more of the post. I somehow doubt you'll lose sleep over this, so I thought that it would be alright to share it with you.

Deboogle!.
12-28-2003, 12:54 AM
The above was intended as a joke, although I have to be honest.... once you break out into the "we's" and "us's" and speak for the collective, I cease reading any more of the post. I somehow doubt you'll lose sleep over this, so I thought that it would be alright to share it with you.

uh.... thanks for sharing? Been losing a lot of sleep lately, but not because of you so don't worry :) Now if you could tell the weird ex-boyfried from 7 years ago to go away...........but anyway.

just for measure, in this particular post/issue I was purposely defending ALL Andy fans. NONE of us, not just me, can say anything good about Andy without getting either personally attacked/made fun of, or have whatever we said about Andy attacked. That really is a "we, us" problem on this board, at least from my observations. And if you read closely, I spoke about myself individually when it was warranted :) No worries, since our major blowout a couple months ago I always make sure to use the correct pronouns to make sure I'm saying exactly what I mean :cool:

tangerine_dream
12-29-2003, 12:51 AM
Roddick staved off more break points than anyone on the tour this year. That shows mental strength. And that's just one of the reasons I say he has showed mental strength this year. Ending the year number one is another.

I agree for the reasons you sited. Not many people can come back from two sets down on a match point and then go on to win. In fact, I think Roddick was the only one who pulled that trick off twice this year.

I would say Hewitt is mentally tough, too, but he's had such a down year that I would classify him more as being 'heart tough' than mentally tough right now. To me, being mentally tough means not ever doubting yourself and Hewitt has unfortunately doubted himself all this year. Hopefully, with his Davis Cup win that'll give him his confidence back. And then he'll be hell on wheels again. :devil:

Ferrero seems mentally tough to me, too. He doesn't choke nor does he seem indimidated by anyone. Very solid player.

As for Agassi, well, he's the rock of Gibraltar. :eek:

And Safin the headcase quitter? He's about as mentally tough as a grapefruit. Safin soufflee. Hee! :p

tangerine_dream
12-29-2003, 01:17 AM
And I really don't care if Roddick fans diss Federer or whomever as long as they can present a logical argument.

I don't think I've ever seen a Roddick fan diss Federer on these boards. However, I see tons of Fed fans getting their panties all in a twist over Roddick. It sure is lonely being the only Fed/Roddick fan around these parts. Can someone cry me a river? :sobbing:

Ill repeat that: as long as they present a reasonable and logical argument.

I agree. I rarely see any logical arguments from the Roddick haters. That's why I mostly don't bother with them. :p

Tingu
12-29-2003, 01:24 AM
Probably Hewitt or Rdoddick

Tingu
12-29-2003, 01:24 AM
sorry i meant Roddick

Deboogle!.
12-29-2003, 01:27 AM
Tingu, you should join us on the Andy forum :)

Action Jackson
12-29-2003, 01:45 AM
It's very hard for a Roddick fan to disrepect Federer when he completely owns Roddick in their head to head matches. Yes, I keep forgetting Roddick lovers are perfect.

Originally posted by tangerine_dream
Not many people can come back from two sets down on a match point and then go on to win. In fact, I think Roddick was the only one who pulled that trick off twice this year.



Did he actually save match points against Youzhny? I thought he only came back from 2 sets to love down.

As for mental toughness well Albert Costa comiing back from two sets to love down 3x to win in the French Open. He played four 5 setters and he won them all, and that takes a lot of mental toughness to do that especially on the clay.

Hewitt would have to be up there I mean beating two former French Open champions in Guga and Costa on clay his worst surface and their best in front of tough Brazilian and Spanish crowds are great examples of mental toughness.

Deboogle!.
12-29-2003, 02:05 AM
It's very hard for a Roddick fan to disrepect Federer when he completely owns Roddick in their head to head matches. Yes, I keep forgetting Roddick lovers are perfect.


Georgie, that's not the point at all, and I know you know that deep down. Stop being obstinate for the sake of being obstinate :p

star
12-29-2003, 02:07 AM
Please. Snowballs in hell.

Action Jackson
12-29-2003, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by bunk18bsb
Georgie, that's not the point at all, and I know you know that deep down. Stop being obstinate for the sake of being obstinate

Bunkie, the comment is still true ( the second sentence mightn't be), whether I am being stubborn or not, and actually I wouldn't know about being obstinate.

Yes, star you are a ray of sunshine in my life. Btw Hell is actually a very attractive village, so that doesn't bother me.

Leo
12-29-2003, 06:37 AM
Of the young guns, it's definitely Hewitt.

Chloe le Bopper
12-29-2003, 06:46 AM
This reminds me of how Roddick was mysteriously taking away votes from Coria and Schuettler in the "most improved" poll ;)

He's clearly up there, perhaps even second. But he's not nothing on Hewitt. I can't say that enough ;)

claudine140
12-29-2003, 07:47 AM
there are many players who have a strong mentallity or they wouldn't function on the tennis circuit. Indeed Agassi is on of the best mentality, coming back after two years (1997-1998): those were his most badly years and than he came back, with the help from steffi graff of course. At the age of 28 he began to train very very hard, and became number one, won slams etc, i have many respect for him.

But so i have for carlos moya. He was for only two weeks number one, had in the next weeks many points to defend and he couldn't because of a blister on his thumb who was really very bad!!! I saw it on television in close up. So you can not hold a raquet in your hand with such an injury. So he must give up or couldn't give himself for 100%. After some weeks it was OK but he lost his first place and his rithme. Than in september that terrible back injury. It tooks more than six months before he could play again for 100%. But he fought back and after two years he was back in the top ten. From the nine years prof player, he ended five time the year in the top ten.
What do you think about that.

Action Jackson
12-31-2003, 08:32 AM
I have said before Hewitt in this generation would be the strongest mentally, but if it was all time the answer would be Thomas Muster.

The difference between him and Agassi was, Agassi's own problems were largely self-inflicted where Muster's weren't.

He recovered from a severe knee injury after he was hit by a drunk driver, which inhibited his ability to perform and practice on hard courts. He won a TMS on hardcourts, made Slam semis on the surface, so he wasn't a total gimp away from clay.

Muster had a special chair designed so he could practice hitting balls before he was allowed to walk. The next year he was named ATP Comeback Player of the Year.

His leg became shorter than the other, and the rest of his body and mind had to compensate, that is why he had hip problems at the end of his career.

He also came back from being severly dehydrated the day before beating Becker at TMS Monte Carlo after being 2 sets to love down, and a matchpoint down and winning the final set 6-0.

No matter what anyone thought of him, he will always be respected for his fierce determination, and mental toughness to comeback so strongly from those circumstances.

Loremaster
02-02-2006, 10:58 AM
What's your opinion ??

I think that Nadal he has great head and heart for fighting.

Five
02-02-2006, 11:00 AM
Safin for sure :tape:

bokehlicious
02-02-2006, 11:04 AM
Federer, no doubt :)

MisterQ
02-02-2006, 11:08 AM
Federer, Agassi: have learned with experience to be mentally tough
Hewitt, Nadal: naturally mentally tough

OddJob
02-02-2006, 11:09 AM
It pains me to say so but Fed followed by Rafa.

Loremaster
02-02-2006, 11:13 AM
Yeah but I thin that Nadal and Hewitt had something more than others they can pull out matches that seemed lost for them.
Federer is tough mentally for sure, but when someone is outplaying him (Gasquet, Nadal ) he don't know what to do and is making silly error one after another (fine example is RG SF when he was missing so many forehands :eek: ) such situation are ultra-rare because hardly anyone is able to outplay him.

almouchie
02-02-2006, 11:15 AM
federer was not on my top of the list as he hadn't yet battled to win hard
but after the AO win he showed his fighting strengthn which will be more important as time passes. To know how to win & win when ur not playing as great or when u r pushed to the limit
Nadal need to show his ability over time & his consistency to be judged better
rather than one season

HybridTheory
02-02-2006, 11:21 AM
Roger, Rafael and Lleyton, I picked Roger.

uNIVERSE mAN
02-02-2006, 11:22 AM
Yeah but I thin that Nadal and Hewitt had something more than others they can pull out matches that seemed lost for them.
Federer is tough mentally for sure, but when someone is outplaying him (Gasquet, Nadal ) he don't know what to do and is making silly error one after another (fine example is RG SF when he was missing so many forehands :eek: ) such situation are ultra-rare because hardly anyone is able to outplay him.

What exactly did Nadal figure out in Australia against Hewitt, Wimbledon and US Open when he was crushed like an insect by Blake??

Black Adam
02-02-2006, 11:25 AM
Rafael Nadal, ever since AO 2005 he has been getting tougher and tougher apart some hicups in Miami and USO. Wimbledon there was nothing he could do to overcoome Muller can upset anyone on a good day :yeah:

nermo
02-02-2006, 11:34 AM
Nadal, i think is mentally tough by nature, Dont' know if this is gonna be affected by more pressures to come, specially after this long absence..hopefully not.
Secong comes Hewitt, and Agassi.
Federer is gaining more mental toughness, so i don't think he's the strongest mental stability.
Baghdatis still has more to experience about mental toughness, and i'm not speaking about his mental stability when he's out played, Speaking about his mental stability when he's on the winning side.

Castafiore
02-02-2006, 11:38 AM
Difficult choice actually but I'm going for Nadal at the moment.

Hewitt: one of the most impressive things I ever saw him do was win the USO final vs the mighty Sampras in front of a very, VERY hostile crowd.
Federer: had to work on it but the fact that he could overcome his doubts and now is so intimidating, is impressive. :worship:
Nadal: according to guys who actually know what they're talking about (not that you guys aren't top experts ;) ) like Mats Wilander, G. Vilas, J. MacEnroe, Thomas Muster, Brad Gilbert, Moya and others, Nadal has one of the sharpest minds in tennis and he's one of the strongest from a mental point of view. :)

Angle Queen
02-02-2006, 12:18 PM
I used to think it was Hewitt, hands down...but now...I'm not so sure. I think the nagging injuries and homelife have brought some doubts to him.

I'll still vote Hewitt, but I think Roger and Rafa are right up there.

Sam L (WTAW)
02-02-2006, 12:30 PM
He used to be a headcase but since winning his first slam, it's been Roger.

Sam L (WTAW)
02-02-2006, 12:31 PM
What exactly did Nadal figure out in Australia against Hewitt, Wimbledon and US Open when he was crushed like an insect by Blake??
Bravo! Very telling. He crawled back into his cave it seems built by his fans who overhyped him.

Peoples
02-02-2006, 12:35 PM
I disagree with everyone saying it's Roger. He has very strong ups and downs, the only reason can be loss of concentration or confidence which doesn't show mental toughness. He's up there but there are tougher players than him. Nadal has a more consistent game and better concentration.

But I'd go for F.Lo or Malisse here.

Viveletennis
02-02-2006, 12:37 PM
Paul-Henri Mathieu :p

R.Federer
02-02-2006, 12:56 PM
not coria.. .but I always think it is leyton, although lately he is not so good
others on the top are Roge and pete sampras

nobama
02-02-2006, 01:20 PM
federer was not on my top of the list as he hadn't yet battled to win hard
but after the AO win he showed his fighting strengthn which will be more important as time passes. I guess that QF match against Agassi at 2004 USO wasn't a battle, huh? Or how about the 2005 USO final where he 23,000 fans rooting for the other guy, lost the second set and was down a break in the third. Or being down 2 sets to love against Nadal in the 05 finals of Miami. I guess he didn't battle in any of those matches:rolleyes: It amazes me how some people here think Roger never has to battle or work hard. That's total BS. :ras:

mangoes
02-02-2006, 02:47 PM
Roger is the strongest, followed by Rafa, then Lleyton

landoud
02-02-2006, 03:31 PM
i think roger is the strongest player mentally.... so many pressure and so many hard times on court . the only thing that made him make through all this is definetly his mind

Rogiman
02-02-2006, 03:37 PM
Nalbandian :tape:

A_Skywalker
02-02-2006, 03:38 PM
I think it's Nadal , there is someting in him that cant be broken easily , the only time I think he was not good mentally was against Blake in USO . But at that age to be so calm is very hard .

TheMightyFed
02-02-2006, 03:46 PM
How can you say it's Nadal, while Roger has gone through 7 GS finals without losing one ? And four of those were to defend titles, which is the ultimate pressure situation in tennis in terms of media, opposition and preparation.
Nadal shows heart and fights like a bull, but he's not yet at Fed's level in terms of mental toughness... Let's see what he's doing at FO this year, then we can compare the two...

Mechlan
02-02-2006, 04:46 PM
Roger is an interesting case. He's very mentally tough when down (see AO 2005 semi, TMC 2005 final) but tends to really squander opportunities after breaking, something that Sampras, for example, would never do.

On the other hand, he's a great front-runner, though part of that is that he's just fantastically talented, and when he's ahead he plays with less pressure on himself, allowing his genius to show. In terms of pure never-say-die mentality, I would still pick Nadal or Hewitt, but if you take into account other factors like Federer's versatility, ability to change tactics mid-match, confidence from winning so much, and the general aura about him, I think Federer becomes very very mentally tough.

stebs
02-02-2006, 04:47 PM
I tink Nadal and Federer are both hugely mentally strong. Federer has shown it in the most difficult situations so I picked him but Nadal might well prove to be able to do that as well. Time will have to tell.

prima donna
02-02-2006, 04:48 PM
Andre Agassi by a landslide, unfortunately his body is no longer on par with his mind.

artlinkletter
02-02-2006, 04:52 PM
I don't quite see how people think Federer is inconsistent. Sure, he has walkabouts now and then, but he pulls through. To be #1 in the world, you HAVE to be mentally strong. You have all sorts of pressure put on you to perform. I won't disagree with you guys saying Nadal is mentally strong, he is without a doubt. But he just doesn't have the expectations and pressures put on him as Federer does. People don't expect him to win every single match he plays. He isn't expected to play 100% all of the time, not by the media anyways. He's still young, and thus, is excused if he gets beat. The "oh, he's just 19, he still hasn't reached his prime" excuses come out. I don't disagree with statements like those, it's just, Federer never gets excused if he has an off day. I'll have to wait till the FO to see how mentally strong Nadal is. Something tells me he won't disappoint. :)

P.S. One strong showing at a Grand Slam is all it takes to get Baghdatis on this list????

Galaxystorm
02-02-2006, 04:54 PM
1) Hewitt
2) Federer
3) Nadal

NYCtennisfan
02-02-2006, 06:39 PM
AFter wathching Federer against Haas, Davydenko, Kiefer, and Baggy, I would say him now ahead of Hewitt and Nadal.

nermo
02-02-2006, 07:07 PM
posted by NYCtennisfan
AFter wathching Federer against Haas, Davydenko, Kiefer, and Baggy, I would say him now ahead of Hewitt and Nadal.

Fed. is definitely gaining more mental stability.It takes a lot of mental stability to keep up with all these great expectations surrounding him, but imho, it was not the superpower clue he mainly relied on for sustaining in such a position, not until lately i guess.

1sun
02-02-2006, 08:00 PM
fed

kasia
02-02-2006, 08:31 PM
1) Andy Roddick
2) Marat Safin

Skyward
02-02-2006, 08:36 PM
1) Andy Roddick
2) Marat Safin

:haha:

MisterQ
02-02-2006, 08:38 PM
Sometimes it can be hard to evaluate mental toughness in a player with great shotmaking ability like Federer or Agassi. These guys can have a loose couple of games, regroup, and then get back into the match by outhitting the other guy. That shows a form of mental strength in itself, of course... but there may be periods of mental weakness in the match.

You see mental toughness more clearly in a player like Hewitt. This guy is not going to overpower his opponent, and he can't afford to take it easy for a few games. That's what players feared most about Hewitt at his peak... his mental strength. They knew he wasn't going to go away, would never stop fighting, would play smartly and consistently even under great pressure, and never relent...

ugotlobbed
02-02-2006, 09:30 PM
nadal wasnt tough when he lost in miami

Agassi Aces
02-02-2006, 09:34 PM
Andre Agassi with experience is extremely mentally tough!

Bilbo
02-02-2006, 09:41 PM
Definately not Federer. I have to say Agassi of what I have seen over the past years.

Rogiman
02-02-2006, 10:11 PM
Definately not Federer. I have to say Agassi of what I have seen over the past years.
I suspect the answer would be the same for you no matter the question...

Fergie
02-02-2006, 10:22 PM
Roger, of course :)

Bilbo
02-02-2006, 10:22 PM
I suspect the answer would be the same for you no matter the question...

smartness and greatness has nothing to do with mental strengthness. Roger's great winnings are not coming off mental strengthess. These are coming off other things. Rarely it's his mental strength and we all remember last years Australian Open against Safin. He blew that match also against Nalbandian. Tell my how often Agassi blew a match? I can't remember off anyone who was saving more match/setpoints of was coming back when it was needed. Even Nadal has a bigger mental strengthness as Federer.

Being no.1 and greatest player doesn't mean you have the best mental strengthness. This is what most and also unexperienced fans have overlooked here.

Fedex
02-02-2006, 10:24 PM
Federer, without a doubt.

Fedex
02-02-2006, 10:27 PM
I guess that QF match against Agassi at 2004 USO wasn't a battle, huh? Or how about the 2005 USO final where he 23,000 fans rooting for the other guy, lost the second set and was down a break in the third. Or being down 2 sets to love against Nadal in the 05 finals of Miami. I guess he didn't battle in any of those matches:rolleyes: It amazes me how some people here think Roger never has to battle or work hard. That's total BS. :ras:
I agree.

Rogiman
02-02-2006, 10:34 PM
smartness and greatness has nothing to do with mental strengthness. Roger's great winnings are not coming off mental strengthess. These are coming off other things. Rarely it's his mental strength and we all remember last years Australian Open against Safin. He blew that match also against Nalbandian. Tell my how often Agassi blew a match? I can't remember off anyone who was saving more match/setpoints of was coming back when it was needed. Even Nadal has a bigger mental strengthness as Federer.

Being no.1 and greatest player doesn't mean you have the best mental strengthness. This is what most and also unexperienced fans have overlooked here.
Was anyone talking about Federer...?
Agassi's success has very little to do with toughness too, as his matches against Rafter at Wimbledon (blowing a 5th set decisive break in 2001, losing in 5 a year earlier) or Scud (2003) indicate, as well as the pegion he turned into every time he had to face Sampras in a decisive match (like that famous 2002 USO final, when he was clearly the form player).
Agassi has never really been tough mentally, and not a very good loser either - like those times when he abandoned TMC (twice, off the top of my head) just because he lost, and had no chance of qualifying.

Bilbo
02-02-2006, 10:39 PM
When I look at the vote you could think people voted about their current success or ranking and I can tell you most people voted like that. Please explain what this has to do with mental strength?

BlackSilver
02-02-2006, 10:48 PM
I go with Hewitt

World Beater
02-02-2006, 10:50 PM
i cant vote for agassi because of all the times he had opportunities against sampras, but always seemed to come short.

he really isnt the zen master of mental toughness when it comes to big matches against strong opponents. he is great against lower ranked foes, but against top gunners like federer, nadal and safin he has come up short. And it is not because of shot making ability.

i remember the nadal match in canda, he had tons of opporunities in the third set and made mistakes on key pts. or what about the match against federer at the usopen. he had fed on the ropes, until the tie break when he threw in some uncharacteristic errors. Agassi is very strong but not the strongest i think.

Some players can fight but this does not mean they are mentally strong. Mental strength comes from playing the big points well.

Federer has played many matches when he is sub-par and still hit great shots on the big pts. it is not because of ability but mental strength. I would give fed the nod, but he even seems to go on walkabout.

Nadal is very strong but doesnt know what to do on a hardcourt when his defensive style isnt working and the other guys can hit through the court.

The dilemma about federer is the same one with sampras. many times sampras served himself out of trouble. was it because of his serve or his mental strength. Even when sampras played crappy, he still could serve well on the big points. This is similar with federer.

Fedex
02-03-2006, 12:26 AM
Even when sampras played crappy, he still could serve well on the big points. This is similar with federer.
Yes, but Sampras was able to serve himself out of trouble far more than Federer can. Federer's serve isn't dominant, like Sampras' was; he has to work alot harder to win those big points.

BlackSilver
02-03-2006, 12:30 AM
Nadal is very strong but doesnt know what to do on a hardcourt when his defensive style isnt working and the other guys can hit through the court.



Sorry, but what this have to due with mental strenght? This is a technical limitation that he has, not a mental obstacle

Jimnik
02-03-2006, 12:33 AM
Nadal is mentally stronger than Federer. Some of Roger's mental weaknesses have been exposed in Australia over the last 2 years. He had so many close calls, against average players, even though he was the overwhelming favourite to win the tournament.

Mechlan
02-03-2006, 12:50 AM
Nadal is mentally stronger than Federer. Some of Roger's mental weaknesses have been exposed in Australia over the last 2 years. He had so many close calls, against average players, even though he was the overwhelming favourite to win the tournament.

How is that a sign of mental weakness? If anything, it shows that he was able to win not playing at his best... more of a sign of mental toughness.

Skyward
02-03-2006, 01:00 AM
. Some of Roger's mental weaknesses have been exposed in Australia over the last 2 years. He had so many close calls, against average players, even though he was the overwhelming favourite to win the tournament.

Oh, Sampras won AO "only" twice and played a few 5(4) setters in 1994/1997 . I guess it proves that he was a classic headcase. :rolleyes:

PaulieM
02-03-2006, 01:02 AM
I don't quite see how people think Federer is inconsistent. Sure, he has walkabouts now and then, but he pulls through. To be #1 in the world, you HAVE to be mentally strong. You have all sorts of pressure put on you to perform. I won't disagree with you guys saying Nadal is mentally strong, he is without a doubt. But he just doesn't have the expectations and pressures put on him as Federer does. People don't expect him to win every single match he plays. He isn't expected to play 100% all of the time, not by the media anyways. He's still young, and thus, is excused if he gets beat. The "oh, he's just 19, he still hasn't reached his prime" excuses come out. I don't disagree with statements like those, it's just, Federer never gets excused if he has an off day. I'll have to wait till the FO to see how mentally strong Nadal is. Something tells me he won't disappoint. :)

P.S. One strong showing at a Grand Slam is all it takes to get Baghdatis on this list????

:yeah:

Saturn66
02-03-2006, 01:40 AM
FEDERER

tennisace422000
02-03-2006, 01:41 AM
federer by far (see: final against nadal)

World Beater
02-03-2006, 02:12 AM
Yes, but Sampras was able to serve himself out of trouble far more than Federer can. Federer's serve isn't dominant, like Sampras' was; he has to work alot harder to win those big points.

i was talking about clutch play in general...federer doesnt need to serve an ace on a big point..he may hit a fh winner instead.

World Beater
02-03-2006, 02:16 AM
Sorry, but what this have to due with mental strenght? This is a technical limitation that he has, not a mental obstacle

his match against berdych is a great example of how he had many chances to win but couldnt against a guy who can hit through the court. Nadal needs to be more offensive on big points. part of being offensive is having guts and confidence...going for your shots on big points. this is part of mental strength. having belief in your shots, not only in your legs.

he can play offensively, and his defensive style is not a technical limitation. But sometimes he tries to play passive and run too many balls down.

superpinkone37
02-03-2006, 02:20 AM
Gotta go with Federer. I mean, obviously he must be EXTREMELY stong mentally to do what he's doing. :shrug:

DDrago2
02-03-2006, 04:36 AM
Hrbaty

Federer is one of the weakest, if not THE weakest player out there, as we can see when he cries like a sissy when he wins, while not having strength to show his emotions on court

Nadal and Hewitt are one-dimensional bull-fighters

bokehlicious
02-03-2006, 05:55 AM
I suspect the answer would be the same for you no matter the question...

:yeah: :tape:

jacobhiggins
02-03-2006, 06:41 AM
Federer is mentally the stongest. He wins more matches then anybody, and he wins the most important matches then anybody playing. That alone dosen't mean he is mentally the toughest, he might be the best player and the most talented but that does not make him mentally the toughest right, well in Federer's case it does, because he is chasing Sampras and history.

No one in the game has as much pressure as Federer!

fini
02-03-2006, 07:04 AM
Marcos Baghdatis,he can put his soul into a match.

nobama
02-03-2006, 11:14 AM
Hrbaty

Federer is one of the weakest, if not THE weakest player out there, as we can see when he cries like a sissy when he wins, while not having strength to show his emotions on court

Nadal and Hewitt are one-dimensional bull-fighters :cuckoo:

I♥PsY@Mus!c
02-03-2006, 11:39 AM
Agassi and Davydenko! :D It seems they can come back from 2 sets down always.

Guybrush
02-03-2006, 11:43 AM
Who is mentally the strongest player?

Mario Ančić :D

Loremaster
02-03-2006, 04:51 PM
I don't understand why so many voted for Federer :eek: , he is not handling pressure like other players, example ??

his 5 setters record , for such "great" mentally player it's horrible 10-9 in whole career and 3-5 since 2003. and one against Nadal was more effect of Nadal tireness(he was only 18 in such heat in Miami)

compare Federer to Hewitt whose record is 19-7 and 12-1 since 2002 , or Nadal 4-2.

For me 5 setters are hardest for player head , you must fight with opponent , pressure and tireness and Federer is very bad in 5th set

bokehlicious
02-03-2006, 08:01 PM
I don't understand why so many voted for Federer :eek: , he is not handling pressure like other players, example ??


He must be a true headcase indeed to win so many back-to-back titles with the constant pressure on his shoulders as an overwehlming favourite... :scratch:

Fedex
02-03-2006, 08:04 PM
I don't understand why so many voted for Federer :eek: , he is not handling pressure like other players, example ??

Oh, yes, because we know there's NO PRESSURE AT ALL when you're the number one player in the world, and you are chasing history. :rolleyes:

Loremaster
02-03-2006, 08:52 PM
but I was talking about 5 setters , in 5 setters it's almost all about mental battle, and Federer has terrible record in 5 setters when compared to Hewitt

bokehlicious
02-03-2006, 08:57 PM
but I was talking about 5 setters , in 5 setters it's almost all about mental battle, and Federer has terrible record in 5 setters when compared to Hewitt

5 setters is one apsect of mentally strength, far from the main / most important one...

Fedex
02-04-2006, 02:51 AM
but I was talking about 5 setters , in 5 setters it's almost all about mental battle, and Federer has terrible record in 5 setters when compared to Hewitt
Roger's done well in his recent 5 set matches. And you cant question this guys desire to win, his heart. Just look at the Nalbandian TMC Final. Even though he would go on to lose the match, he still fought back from 0-4, 0-30 down in the fifth set, and was actually 2 points away from pulling off a miracle comeback on his own serve.
There were plenty more examples of this at Oz. Haas 4th round, QF against Davydenko, SF against Kiefer, and in the final against Baghdatis.

Loremaster
02-04-2006, 08:33 AM
If he made well in 5 setter he would have such bad record (since 2003 he lost 5 out of 8 5 setter ) against Nalbandian he has shown how weak mentally he could be , it was great to return from 0-4 but few minutes later he had 6-5 and 30-0 and his serve , players like Nadal(even with injuries),Hewiit would win being in such great winning position but Federer lost next 5 points , blowing away 4 of them with silly errors if I remember well.

Look at Nadal, how mentally he must be to play with injury (Federer was after injury in TMC , not full form but healthy) 6 hard matches and come back from 2 sets down against in-form Ljubicic in Madrid.It was great fighting spirit and unbreakable mentality , loosing to Blake in USOpen wasn't so bad it was in 4 sets and Blake was clearly on fire , he almost won with Agassi, and Nadal was very tired and UsOpen surface is not his favourite.

Hewitt has alomst impossible 5 setter record , 12-1 since 2002(and 19-7 in whole career) it shows how hard in mental aspect is he.

Federer has to much ups and downs during the matches , how many times we have seen him leading 5-3 serving for set or match and blowing it , he could have won this matches but still if he was so great mentally he should won them earlier , he was winning such matches thanks to head but thanks to his huge talent.

Fedex
02-04-2006, 10:56 AM
If he made well in 5 setter he would have such bad record (since 2003 he lost 5 out of 8 5 setter ) against Nalbandian he has shown how weak mentally he could be , it was great to return from 0-4 but few minutes later he had 6-5 and 30-0 and his serve , players like Nadal(even with injuries),Hewiit would win being in such great winning position but Federer lost next 5 points , blowing away 4 of them with silly errors if I remember well.

I think him losing that game at 6-5 in the 5th was more fatigue then anything. Federer coulden't buy himself a 1st serve in that game. Then Nalbandian outplayed him in the tiebreaker.
If you're going to try and win an argument here by saying that the best player in the world isn't mentally tough, you're fighting a losing battle.

Dirk
02-04-2006, 11:02 AM
Roger doesn't let most of his matches go to 5 sets. Lore, we will not say Andy Roddick so give it up man.

Loremaster
02-04-2006, 12:28 PM
Yeah but I'm not saying that Andy is the strongest mentally player.

and Fedex I'm not trying to say that Federer isn't mentally tought but I'm saying that he is not the toughtest that's my point
loosing game at 6-5 was not fatigue it was mental, he was extremly tired at 5-5 or 4-3 or 4-4 but when he had chance to win match he simply choked

bokehlicious
02-04-2006, 12:32 PM
Loremaster, for example have a look at Roger's tie-break record (specially this year) :o (and we all know that winning tie-break is min. 80% a mental stuff :) )

Federerthebest
02-04-2006, 12:34 PM
definitely hewitt

Jimnik
02-04-2006, 12:35 PM
How is that a sign of mental weakness? If anything, it shows that he was able to win not playing at his best... more of a sign of mental toughness.
No, it shows that he's able to win even though he's mentally weaker. With his ability he should have won more easily. I'm not saying Roger is mentally weak, I'm just saying he's not as strong as Nadal, in that department.

Nadal doesn't have the shots that Roger has and yet he won 10 tournaments last year. I've never seen him get frustrated or throw a racket or get nervous. I've seen Roger do it all.

Jimnik
02-04-2006, 12:38 PM
Oh, Sampras won AO "only" twice and played a few 5(4) setters in 1994/1997 . I guess it proves that he was a classic headcase. :rolleyes:
No, Sampras was taken to 5 sets at the AO because he hates slow courts. Sampras never threw rackets or got frustrated in matches. He just kept fighting. He wasn't as good a player as Roger yet he won so many slams greatly due to his mental strength.

Loremaster
02-04-2006, 12:59 PM
No, it shows that he's able to win even though he's mentally weaker. With his ability he should have won more easily. I'm not saying Roger is mentally weak, I'm just saying he's not as strong as Nadal, in that department.

Nadal doesn't have the shots that Roger has and yet he won 10 tournaments last year. I've never seen him get frustrated or throw a racket or get nervous. I've seen Roger do it all.

That's great and true point :worship:

I have seen too many ups and downs in Roger game , he has great amybe the greatest game but sometimes he plays outstanding but when he is too much relaxed he playes badly and it's not sign of his mental power , Nadal is so strong mentally for example he is playing as every single ball was a match ball , with all determination he has ideal never-say-die attitiude , the same as Hewitt , I remember Lleyton when is was in form , when the situation on court the worst situation on court the better he was playing he was rising his game.

World Beater
02-04-2006, 02:08 PM
That's great and true point :worship:

I have seen too many ups and downs in Roger game , he has great amybe the greatest game but sometimes he plays outstanding but when he is too much relaxed he playes badly and it's not sign of his mental power , Nadal is so strong mentally for example he is playing as every single ball was a match ball , with all determination he has ideal never-say-die attitiude , the same as Hewitt , I remember Lleyton when is was in form , when the situation on court the worst situation on court the better he was playing he was rising his game.

did it ever occur to you it might take more concentration and focus to hit great outstanding shots than to hit moonballs or counterpunch like hewitt?

nadal plays one way and so does hewitt. roger has so many different shots and with all of them comes the burden of higher focus needing to execute every shot to perfection.

World Beater
02-04-2006, 02:11 PM
No, Sampras was taken to 5 sets at the AO because he hates slow courts. Sampras never threw rackets or got frustrated in matches. He just kept fighting. He wasn't as good a player as Roger yet he won so many slams greatly due to his mental strength.

did you see federer throw rackets at the last AO?

he was almost to calm in my opionion when he wasnt playing well.

throwing rackets btw doesnt mean you arent fighting. Safin fights but breaks rackets all the time...look at his 5set record.

Jimnik
02-04-2006, 02:17 PM
did you see federer throw rackets at the last AO?

he was almost to calm in my opionion when he wasnt playing well.

throwing rackets btw doesnt mean you arent fighting. Safin fights but breaks rackets all the time...look at his 5set record.
Off course throwing rackets doesn't mean you aren't fighting. But it's an obvious sign of frustration. If you're letting your opponent get to you then that's a weakness. Roger threw his racket a couple of times at this year's AO and I remember him throwing it in the Safin match in 2005.

nobama
02-04-2006, 02:22 PM
Roger won 11 tournaments in 2004. In 2005 he defended 8 of those 11 tournaments and won three he hadn't won in 2004 (including 2 TMS). There's no possible way you could do that just on talent alone. Who on tour is under the same amount of pressure Fed is? Maybe Nadal this year on clay?

I don't care how talented someone is, they're not always going to be playing their best. But when they're able to win even when not at their best to me that's a sign they are mentally stronger. Tiger Woods is a great example of this. Making crucial puts when he needs to to win a tournament or force a play-off. That's what I think Roger has been able to do, play the big points better. Of course you can come up with examples of when he wasn't able to do that, but I think there are more examples of when he was able to do it.

World Beater
02-04-2006, 02:27 PM
Off course throwing rackets doesn't mean you aren't fighting. But it's an obvious sign of frustration. If you're letting your opponent get to you then that's a weakness. Roger threw his racket a couple of times at this year's AO and I remember him throwing it in the Safin match in 2005.

no i cant recall a match in this years AO where he threw his racket.

throwing a racket is more a sign of inward frustration rather than outward.

roger rarely throws his racket these days. he is a great shotmaker and is more prone to days when his shots arent working too well. A guy like nadal or hewitt doesnt have much variety in their games for something to go wrong like federer.

hewitt also curses out loud and calls linesppl names...i see that as frustration. Nadal shakes his head many times when he is getting beaten and this too is a sign of frustration... i think you are underestimating federer's toughness.

nadal looks to be tough but its easy to be tough when you are hitting the same shot over the net 2000 times. nothing can really go wrong.

Castafiore
02-04-2006, 02:32 PM
I agree that Federer bears the pressure of being the number one very well but...

Who on tour is under the same amount of pressure Fed is?
I really don't know about this one, mirkaland.

Federer already has a slam title this year and the points advantage in the ATP ranking he has at the moment is MASSIVE.

Roddick for example: seen the criticism he received after the USO, after the AO?
Hewitt?
I honestly think that these guys are under as much pressure if not more than Federer.

As far as this topic is concerned. This isn't the question: "who is the best tennis player" but "who is mentally the strongest".
I wouldn't consider Hewitt to be the best player but he sure is one of the toughest mentally.

throwing a racket is more a sign of inward frustration rather than outward.
I'm not sure that I understand what you mean here.
Isn't throwing a racket an outward manifestation of an inward frustration?
I think that every player gets frustrated at some point, but the ones who are strong mentally can avoid showing that frustration too much and they can move on more quickly.

Loremaster
02-04-2006, 02:41 PM
Roger won 11 tournaments in 2004. In 2005 he defended 8 of those 11 tournaments and won three he hadn't won in 2004 (including 2 TMS). There's no possible way you could do that just on talent alone. Who on tour is under the same amount of pressure Fed is? Maybe Nadal this year on clay?

I don't care how talented someone is, they're not always going to be playing their best. But when they're able to win even when not at their best to me that's a sign they are mentally stronger. Tiger Woods is a great example of this. Making crucial puts when he needs to to win a tournament or force a play-off. That's what I think Roger has been able to do, play the big points better. Of course you can come up with examples of when he wasn't able to do that, but I think there are more examples of when he was able to do it.

I understand everything and I know that Federer is mentally great player but in my opinion not the greatest. For me it's Nadal, Hewitt and Roger , they are almost on the same level, but I rank Rafa and Lleyton a little bit over Roger because they have more fighting spirit , particular matches can show this and these two never surrender no matter whar happens. Nadal played in Madrid with injury and he was 2 sets down against in form Ljubicic , but he raised his game, and fought through pain, fatigue and great opponent , Hewitt made such things more than once , I haven't seen federer doing this he doesn't have such fighting heart like this two, at Roland Garros he was so frustrated that in 3 and 4 set he was break up but he was beaten by Nadal mentality , I remember him throwing easy forehands into net, he was mentally weaker than Nadal that was the reason why he lost (Nadal was also not playing anywhere his best )

World Beater
02-04-2006, 02:46 PM
I'm not sure that I understand what you mean here.
Isn't throwing a racket an outward manifestation of an inward frustration?
I think that every player gets frustrated at some point, but the ones who are strong mentally can avoid showing that frustration too much and they can move on more quickly.


when roger throws his racket, he is usually angry at himself...not annoyed or irritated with his opponent as jimnik suggested.

jacobhiggins
02-04-2006, 03:59 PM
Just because Hewitt and Nadal run around the court more and expend a greater deal of energy dosen't mean there mentally tougher.

Nadals game is VERY consistent. He does the same thing over and over and it usually works and stays in.

Hewitt's game is very consistent too, I think it's more consistent then Federer's but less consistent then Nadals.

Federer's game is a very precise game. Everybody has an off day, it's just Federer's off day effects his game and his tennis MUCH more then any other player. He plays high percentage tennis and each stroke if off, is very hard to control! However, under pressure in important matches, how many times have we seen Fed come back from a 15-40 , 0-40 , 15-30 deficit? TONS of times. He has the ability to fire and ace or kick a serve or serve to the body and he has high percentage weapons from the baseline!

No one has more pressure then Federer, that should be known! He's number 1, everyones gunning for him, and he's chasing the "BEST EVER TITLE" :eek:
No on is facing that type of pressure. He's expected to win almost everything!

Nadal's game is more consistant then anybodys in tennis right now so I think alot of people think he dosen't have nerves. I think this year will tell alot about Nadal and his longevity and what kind of champion he is or could still be!

nobama
02-04-2006, 04:16 PM
I agree that Federer bears the pressure of being the number one very well but...


I really don't know about this one, mirkaland.

Federer already has a slam title this year and the points advantage in the ATP ranking he has at the moment is MASSIVE.

Roddick for example: seen the criticism he received after the USO, after the AO?
Hewitt?
I honestly think that these guys are under as much pressure if not more than Federer.Maybe Nadal on clay, but the rest I disagree. Tell me who besides Fed was expected to win AO this year? Not, 'they might have a shot if Fed gets taken out' or something. Roger was the only one expected to win. Before the tournament started there were news stories about how no player has ever had odds like Fed did this year. And there were posts here about how boring AO was going to be, and just give Roger the trophy now, ect. I know other players like Roddick are under pressure too (especially Roddick because he hasn't won a slam since 2003), but it seems to me Roger is the only one expected to win every tournament he enters (with the exception of events on clay).

thrust
02-04-2006, 04:20 PM
There can be NO doubt that Roger is far and away the smartest tennis player today. To say otherwise is silly. I do not root for Roger but the fact is he has no real competion today, other than Nadal on clay.