POLL: Best serve [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

POLL: Best serve

Vass
12-23-2003, 09:37 AM
Who has the best service on the tour? Of present players?

Dirk
12-23-2003, 10:05 AM
I would say Roger and Marat. Too close to call. Andy is up there but those are the two who have the best serves.

Kristen
12-23-2003, 11:17 AM
I cant tell if Andy's is any good. His motion pisses me off too much. It just doesnt seem to flow to me, and looks like he's bouncing all over the place! lol... Maybe Scud I guess... Or wayne arthurs? lol

Experimentee
12-23-2003, 11:59 AM
I'd say Roger Federer. His serve is so good when its working, at Wimbledon, a lot of his points were won just by his serve, also he was holding every game with ease.
Also up there is Safin, and someone you forgot on the poll is Wayne Arthurs. He's probably got the best serve with the most variety, but the rest of his game isnt that good.

Dirk
12-23-2003, 12:03 PM
You have to put Roger over Andy and Scud since he can outserve them both. Every time he plays Andy he always gets more aces.

jtipson
12-23-2003, 12:53 PM
One reason Roger gets more aces than Andy is that he returns Andy's serve well, thus reducing his easy points on serve. Having said that, Roger did serve exceptionally well at Wimbledon. We'll probably see more of that in 2004.

Vass
12-23-2003, 01:14 PM
Can one judge a player's serve only by the way he served at Wimby? Wimby is a fast surface you know, so it's harder to return. I'm not saying that Federer's serve is bad, but I don't think it's the best.

I also am wondering of what people don't like in Roddick's serve?

star
12-23-2003, 01:17 PM
How many Aces someone gets is partially dependent on how well the opponent can return.

It seems to me that people are having difficulty distinguishing between the serve and the total game. If this weren't the case Scud would have more votes, I would think. Everyone in the top echelon of the game has to have a good serve these days.

To me, speaking only of the serve and not about how well I like the guys (or dislike someone else) or the rest of thier game, I would think from the guys listed it would be between Scud and Andy.

To be honest though, I haven't seen Safin play at his best for so long that I have difficulty remembering his serve.

I do admire Roger's serve, but it is only one piece of his game and sets up his game. He has more aces than Andy when they play because Andy doesn't return Roger's serve very well, and Roger returns Andy's serve excellently.

jtipson
12-23-2003, 01:29 PM
It also depends on what you mean by "best". It might mean any of fastest, prettiest, most variety, most consistent, most effective. And naturally some of these are more subjective qualities than others.

star
12-23-2003, 01:34 PM
And you might get a different answer if you asked people intimately involved in professional tennis than people who post on message boards. :)

Vass
12-23-2003, 01:41 PM
Lets just say that best is more effective. And effectiveness includes speed, consistency and perhaps variety.

The last time I saw Safin was Kremlin Cup. The serve was as follows: average speed=190 kph. Aces=40(I think). I'd say that's effective. Although the opponent was W. Black.

Dirk
12-23-2003, 01:45 PM
Roger outserved him at the Masters cup too. He also got alot of aces against Andre. Roger puts alot on his serves and mixes up the placement and his ball toss height is the same thus making it very tough to read. Blake who has played Andy a bunch of times has said nobody puts more on their 2nd serve than Roger. Its a tough call between Roger Scud and Marat but I would say its one of them. I also think Guga has an very underrated serve like JC. Andy's serve is one of the best but its much more brawn than brain which is why his serve was facing so many problems at the Cup. Still he did have an great serving set against Roger in that 1st set. Ok now I am rambling too much. Depends what you are considering when it comes to best serve.

jtipson
12-23-2003, 01:46 PM
Safin fired 40 aces in three sets and he *lost*? Wow.

Shadow
12-23-2003, 01:51 PM
The last time I saw Safin was Kremlin Cup. The serve was as follows: average speed=190 kph. Aces=40(I think). I'd say that's effective. Although the opponent was W. Black.

lol, 40 aces is not true. It were about 20.

Marat`s serve is very unconsistent. (since 2000, in 2000 it was consistent). Its always different every match he plays, so you cant really say... sometimes its effective, sometimes not.
And it also depends on the Rest of his game.

Vass
12-23-2003, 02:09 PM
I was afraid of this. I knew it was either that, or that, but the stupid Kremlin Cup site did not work, when I went there to check.

Deboogle!.
12-23-2003, 02:12 PM
Do we count the second serve here too? Not many people have a kick second serve like Andy's... plus the fact that it's consistently over 100mph

jtipson
12-23-2003, 02:15 PM
Andy doesn't really have a second serve, though.
He has two first serves ;-)

star
12-23-2003, 02:41 PM
Oh, Jtipson, you know that isn't true. :)

Here's a site where you can toggle through stills of Marat serving with a commentary as well.

http://www.tennisforall.org/serves/marat%20safin%20serve.htm

jtipson
12-23-2003, 02:49 PM
I don't mean he serves the same on first and second, just that his power makes Andy's second delivery a lot stronger than many players' first serves! Intended as a compliment :-)

star
12-23-2003, 03:15 PM
OK. :)

Deboogle!.
12-23-2003, 03:52 PM
exactly, jtipson... that was sort of my point lol.

I'd say Andy's serve is hands-down the best (in most of those terms - speed, power, placement, efficiency, aces, whatever)...especially now that he's learned placement and pacing. His slower 115ish mph slice out wide is just as effective as the bomb up the T

Havok
12-23-2003, 03:58 PM
:yawn:why is this poll even done? Andy Roddick hands down. if he doesn't win this poll, then everyone here is smoking some major crack

Deboogle!.
12-23-2003, 04:03 PM
Naldo reread what you wrote.... lol this is MTF we're talking about

Havok
12-23-2003, 04:44 PM
yes i know bunk, but if people use their brains a little bit, Andy is the clear favorite. and the reason why i wrote my previous post was because there was a similar poll done about serves, and Andy was the clear favorite there, so this poll should follow suit

Shy
12-23-2003, 04:49 PM
Marat and Roger serve can be inconsistent, but when they are on, it is a big weapon. I'd say that Roddick serve is the most efficient since he win most of his points with it; however, in term of placement, I don<t feel that it is the best.

Havok
12-23-2003, 05:03 PM
ok why are people saying when player 'x' is on, his serve is amazing. OBVIOUSLY when they are on, everything is working for them. we're talking about day in day out. what makes up a serve? speed, placement, % of serves in, winning % off 1st and 2nd serves, aces, doublefaults, second serves, etc. take a look at the stats over at www.atptennis.com and see who rules the serve department. we're talking about these people on the poll's services everyday, not to pick and chose certain matches and say oh yeah that person is the best when they're on:rolleyes:

Deboogle!.
12-23-2003, 05:22 PM
but if people use their brains a little bit

Again Naldo, please keep in mind where we are... MTF.... lol

and I agree with you, someone who's serve is really inconsistent can't really be said to have the "best" serve, can they?

tangy, Agassi does place the serve really well, that's why he gets aces and does well holding serve even though his serve is otherwise nothing really spectacular... is it the best-placed? I dunno. Pete's serve was pretty freaking amazing in terms of most criteria, but he's not an active player and thus not on this poll.

TennisLurker
12-23-2003, 06:10 PM
I dont like Roddick, but, yeah, his serve is the best.
Very hard to break.

WyverN
12-23-2003, 10:01 PM
wasnt the same topic made about a month ago

Jazzy
12-24-2003, 12:18 AM
i no andy's serve is great, true it is hard 2 breake, but i've never faced the serve (& don't want 2) but federer's & philli's serves r good 2!!! :)

heya
12-24-2003, 01:04 AM
It must be hard to accept that brawn/brains do
come together, since winning events require them.
Hopefully, my fave player won't lose a match after holding a 2 set & 1 break lead.

Deboogle!.
12-24-2003, 01:06 AM
I don't see that happening any time soon heya :)

J. Corwin
12-24-2003, 01:35 AM
By pure versatility and placement it'd be Roger. By most aces to match ratio, it would be Scud. By most service games held over an entire season (and therefore making it the most effective overall), it'd be Andy.

So answer: Andy

You have to keep in mind this has nothing to do with head-to-head records, as some players are just naturally pigeons to others. Some just don't match up well. I'm answering it as I see it overall on the tour.

tripthemighty
12-24-2003, 01:49 AM
By pure versatility and placement it'd be Roger. By most aces to match ratio, it would be Scud. By most service games held over an entire season (and therefore making it the most effective overall), it'd be Andy.

So answer: Andy

You have to keep in mind this has nothing to do with head-to-head records, as some players are just naturally pigeons to others. Some just don't match up well. I'm answering it as I see it overall on the tour.

I agree. Roger has this inate ability to place the ball anywhere he wants on the court. His accuracy is amazing. And the Scud's serve is really uncomparable. But Andy's serve - when compared to the active serves in the game right now - is becoming one of the most effective service games. Especially when you look at where he was a year ago as far as service games are concerned. He's always had the power and speed, but last year, his serve was wildly inconsistent. At least this year, he was able to focus it a bit more. And it's turned into a winning service game.

And yes, head-to-head's are largely inaccurate when it comes to selecting a "best" among these players. You have to think about the mind-games that are included in every head-to-head. If a player things he can't return the serve coming across the net, he's not going to be successful. That doesn't make that serve the best.

Deboogle!.
12-24-2003, 01:58 AM
Yea..... and Andy's serving is getting better and better every day in terms of placement. Plus as I said, second serve must be considered and I'd say without a doubt Andy's second serve is the best in the business right now. Considering how fast he serves and how he paints the lines, the small # of DFs he generally has in a match is also impressive (case in point - TWO DFs during the El-Aynaoui match :eek: lol).

Roger's serve is great, no doubt... but it can really let him down sometimes and Andy almost never has a bad serving day.

J. Corwin
12-24-2003, 02:12 AM
Yea..... and Andy's serving is getting better and better every day in terms of placement. Plus as I said, second serve must be considered and I'd say without a doubt Andy's second serve is the best in the business right now. Considering how fast he serves and how he paints the lines, the small # of DFs he generally has in a match is also impressive (case in point - TWO DFs during the El-Aynaoui match :eek: lol).

Roger's serve is great, no doubt... but it can really let him down sometimes and Andy almost never has a bad serving day.

I had taken the 2nd serve into consideration.

Fedex
12-24-2003, 05:29 AM
I say Federer's serve is the best. Not because he hits the most aces. (although he's 3rd in the world for most aces hit) but becuase he can vary the speed placement and the type of serve better than anybody else. In case you never noticed Roger always outaces andy in their matches. See Roddick will get a bunch of aces against weaker inferior players, but Federer can still chalk up aces against the best returners in the game, Agassi for instance. But when roddick playes Federer or Agassi he wont get as many aces by far. Plus the fact that Federer Serves & Volleys on most 1st serves he drops vary few points on the 1st serve

Dirk
12-24-2003, 08:09 AM
Brains have little to do with closing out matches. Its more of an issue of the will. Nobody said Andy's serve wasn't one of the best but this poll leaves too many answers opened. People all have different views on what is the best serve because they look for different things in an serve.

J. Corwin
12-24-2003, 10:08 AM
How many serve categories does Andy lead at the end of this year in ATP? 4 of 6.

Enough said.

WyverN
12-24-2003, 10:34 AM
You have to look objectively at this - I think Federer would be a far superior player with Roddick's serve.
I certainly think Andy's serve is better then Federer's.

However you also have Goran's and flipper's serve. I honestly can't pick between Goran, flipper and Andy.

Dirk
12-24-2003, 10:55 AM
If Roger could hit has high as Andy yeah I would take it for sure, but I woudn't trade off Roger's serve motion for Andy's. I believe the motion means a lot in terms of consistency and placement. Also Roger's serve is heavier since he uses the heaviest racquet on tour I believe. He uses the same one as Pete did, so I think that since Andy's racquet is lighter that also has something to do with his higher speed. If people want to say Andy has the best serve I won't put up much of an arguement but I am just wondering what they all take into account when considering it.

WyverN
12-24-2003, 11:53 AM
Thats true.

What is best? I assume most effective.

For terrific technical motions you can't go past flipper and Roger.

croat123
12-24-2003, 12:42 PM
ljubicic

but from the list...
scud or marat

star
12-24-2003, 12:53 PM
Naldo must have scabs on his forehead by now.

Look, I'm not saying Roger doesn't have a terrific serve because obviously he does. My question is how can you ignore the ATP serving statistics?

Aces: 1. Roddick
2. Philippoussis
3. Federer

First Serve Points Won: 1. Roddick
2. Fish
3. Philippoussis
4. Ljubicic
5. Federer

Second Serve Points Won: 1. Ferrero
2. Roddick and Federer tied

Service Games won: 1. Roddick
2. Federer

Break Points Saved: 1. Roddick
2. El Aynaoui
3. Lopez
4. Mirnyi
5. Federer
I don't put to much weight on this category, but it does say something about producing when it counts. It also says something about getting to that position in the first place. Andy and Younes may be leading this category simply from that match in Australia. ;)

So Federer is close to Andy, and of course he should never change his beautiful serving motion. However, Andy shouldn't change his service motion either. They are both very successful with what they have.

But if this isn't an artistic contest, between the two, Andy wins the contest of who has the better serve.

star
12-24-2003, 12:55 PM
If you want to talk about who has the better return game, I'll give the laurels to Federer. The statistics in those categories don't lie either. :)

Experimentee
12-24-2003, 01:08 PM
Those stats are compiled from every match across the whole year. But there may be some players with better serves, but who arent as consistent, so they dont win as many matches throughout the year.
And also, the serve might not be the main factor in the first serve points won category for some players. Sometimes when other aspects of a players game are working well, this helps them win points on their first serve, without the serve necessarily being the one that does the most damage.

WyverN
12-24-2003, 01:50 PM
Aces: 1. Roddick
2. Philippoussis
3. Federer

First Serve Points Won: 1. Roddick
2. Fish
3. Philippoussis
4. Ljubicic
5. Federer

Second Serve Points Won: 1. Ferrero
2. Roddick and Federer tied

Service Games won: 1. Roddick
2. Federer

Break Points Saved: 1. Roddick
2. El Aynaoui
3. Lopez
4. Mirnyi
5. Federer


What absolute useless statistics. Obviously the players who have played and won the most are heavily favoured.
If you want to produce statistics, they need to be a % of service games won compared to number of service games served.

In these statistics players such as Arthurs and Rusedski are heavily disadvantaged because apart from their serve, the rest of their game is average and hence they can't backup their good serve.

Also this doesn't take into consideration surfaces, Federer had a greater number of matches on clay compared to Roddick therefore he is disadvanted as it is harder to dominate with the serve on clay.

These statistics don't prove anything.

WyverN
12-24-2003, 01:56 PM
If you want to talk about who has the better return game, I'll give the laurels to Federer. The statistics in those categories don't lie either. :)

Statistics are very easy to manipulate to suit your argument.

star
12-24-2003, 02:29 PM
Statistics are easy to manipulate to suit an argument, but I wasn't manipulating them at all. I was just taking the straight data and not putting any spin on it at all.

So although one can manipulate statistics to suit an argument, that isn't always the case. :angel:

star
12-24-2003, 02:32 PM
Those stats are compiled from every match across the whole year. But there may be some players with better serves, but who arent as consistent, so they dont win as many matches throughout the year.
And also, the serve might not be the main factor in the first serve points won category for some players. Sometimes when other aspects of a players game are working well, this helps them win points on their first serve, without the serve necessarily being the one that does the most damage.


I think that is true. And it seems to me that certain categories should be given more weight. For example, the ace category should have more weight.

And you are absolutely right that there are players that have magnificent serves and nothing else who won't show up on these top ten lists because they have nothing else with which to win. I was only using these statistics to compare Roddick and Federer who have played about the same amount during the year.

But your argument also makes the case that Andy isn't all serve and nothing else. ;)

Havok
12-24-2003, 04:55 PM
. But when roddick playes Federer or Agassi he wont get as many aces by far.
DEAD!!!:haha::haha::haha::haha: you just killed me with this quote. how about you brush up on your facts before you speak. Roddick def. Agassi Queens Club semifinals 2003. if i remember correctly, in a span of 15-16 serves Andy hit, he hit 13 aces! completely destroys your theory. oh and he ended up with about 25 aces for the match:wavey:
oh and btw, isn't Ferrero a very good returner. oops 23 aces:tape:

TennisLurker
12-24-2003, 05:12 PM
Ferrero is not a very good returner.

Deboogle!.
12-24-2003, 05:58 PM
I most certainly thing that consistency day in and day out is important in saying who's serve is the best. If someone's serve is inconsistent enough so that it lets them down on some days, I don't see how it could be better than someone who's serve is on 99% of the time.

Plus, those ATP statistics are percentages, not aggregate numbers (except for aces), so they do not favor those who played more matches. And anyway, Andy had 299, yes 299 more aces than Roger in the exact same # of matches lol

And I don't see what the motion has anything to do with how good a serve is. If it's effective/fast/placed well/whatever, it doesn't really matter what the motion is.

Vass
12-24-2003, 07:27 PM
A poor motion can, in long term, lead to a hard-to-correct injury

Vass
12-24-2003, 07:33 PM
It would be interesting to see Safin against Roddick; Safin against Federer just to compare.

Fedex
12-24-2003, 07:51 PM
Well in the US Open final if you didnt realize ferrero played a very CRAPPY TERRIBLE MATCH!!! :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: . Clearly agassi wasnt at his best either. DONT forget about Federer,one of the best returners. How Many aces did Roddick get in their Wimbledon match: 4. In their TMC Match:5!!!! Even that terrible match where Federer played Terrible he still out aced him & Federer had like 20 Double Faults. If Federer cut the Errors in half he would have won that match in Strait sets!!! BTW dont say Andy served terribly in any Federer match, because his speeds were much higher than Federer's, & in their last match he had over 70% 1st serves in!! :smash:

Fedex
12-24-2003, 07:58 PM
Next time, Naldo check the stats correctly!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: I would say Andy's the best server against other players, BUT when he plays someone who can consistintly return it(even on grass,where his serve is at its best) Andy gets into trouble. He's got a pretty good forehand and decent volleys(at his best) but besides that he has no weapons to contend with a more complete player.

Deboogle!.
12-24-2003, 08:03 PM
If you say Naldo can't talk about the USO final b/c Ferrero played a terrible match, then you can't talk about the TMC SF because Andy played a terrible match. Yes he served 70% but that's because he wasn't going for anything big, he wasn't going for placement or power, so his percentage is hugely deceptive in that match. It's not like the Queen's SF against Andre where he served pretty close to 70% but had over 20 aces against the world's best returner and had several serves that topped 140 in that match (which, incidentally, Boris Becker hailed as the "greatest serving display I've ever seen").

And moreover, you can't talk about someone's serve based on one or two matches, or as several others have said, two players' head-to-heads. Ferrero has an excellent serve, Federer has an excellent serve, and Andy has an excellent serve all in their own right. And it has nothing to do with who beat whom on any particular day whether one is better than another.

Deboogle!.
12-24-2003, 08:09 PM
Next time, Naldo check the stats correctly!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: I would say Andy's the best server against other players, BUT when he plays someone who can consistintly return it(even on grass,where his serve is at its best) Andy gets into trouble. He's got a pretty good forehand and decent volleys(at his best) but besides that he has no weapons to contend with a more complete player.

Ok this argument doesn't fly with me. OK Andy has trouble when players just block back his serve, no one can objectively deny that. But then again he's also beaten/had very close matches against people who are good returners too. And saying that Andy has trouble with good returners doesn't equal having no weapons to "compete with a more complete player" - he beat Sampras twice... Pete wasn't a complete player? Andy's beaten plenty of complete players. Additionally, you can say that about any player. Almost every player has one type of opponent who gives them special trouble. Why did Roger have SO much trouble with both Agassi and Nalbandian for so long? I mean that doesn't mean Roger isn't as good as either/both of them. Some players have special trouble with counter-punchers (a la Hewitt, Chang), some players have trouble with serve-volleyers, other players have problems with good servers and other players have problems with good returners.

The differences in style and different matchups are what make tennis interesting, but because someone has trouble with a certain kind of player doesn't mean that player is no good.

Fedex
12-24-2003, 08:10 PM
Oh Did He!!! Guess some people just dont understand when someone's 2 good!! ;) Even Roddick admitted after their TMC Match that federer was just beyond him. :eek: Its called outclassing Andy, Johnny Mac knows this as well. Already refererd Federer as one of the best EVER!! After all no shame in Andy losing to one of the best ever!!!

Deboogle!.
12-24-2003, 08:16 PM
no... did anyone say there was any shame in losing to another good player? No... and obviously Andy wasn't gonna say he didn't go out there and give 100% but anyone who's watched Andy play knows that he didn't give even close to his best effort at TMC - all week not just against Federer. Plus..... what exactly does this have to do with having the best serve? Oh wait, nothing. Just another opportunity for people to say Andy's bad. :rolleyes:

You don't want to play this game FedEx.... because Federer has trouble with a few players of his own, all of whom he IS better than. So let's just end this ok?

Fedex
12-24-2003, 08:17 PM
Oh and didnt realize you metioned Pete their. He was a very complete player BTW. Dont talk about the time when Andy beat him because for those last few years pete was no longer dominating, & seemed to have lost his magical game. Now we can talk about when Pete played andy at the 2002 US Open enstead, ;) since Pete semeed to have gained back the game that had granted him 13 Grand Slams(then,that is)

Fedex
12-24-2003, 08:19 PM
No point in trying to get an Andy fan to understand, but i know some people in the Federer forum might know what i mean ;)

star
12-24-2003, 08:21 PM
Next time, Naldo check the stats correctly!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: I would say Andy's the best server against other players, BUT when he plays someone who can consistintly return it(even on grass,where his serve is at its best) Andy gets into trouble. He's got a pretty good forehand and decent volleys(at his best) but besides that he has no weapons to contend with a more complete player.

But that was my argument. If you are going to talk about who has the best serve, you have to look at serve only, and not the rest of the game.

It's pointless to talk about whether Andy has a good return, a good volley, or any other weapons other than a serve, if you are only talking about who has the better serve.

It seems the argument is sort of spinning in circles now.

Deboogle!.
12-24-2003, 08:21 PM
This thread is about who has the best serve, not who Andy has trouble beating. I told you that you don't want to play this game...those who live in glass houses can't throw stones and unfortunately for you, Roger's not being perfect puts you there.

I'm not participating in the discussion (and I do use that term loosely) anymore because I'm sick of every thread turning into an Andy diss-a-thon.

star
12-24-2003, 08:27 PM
A poor motion can, in long term, lead to a hard-to-correct injury


Yes. That is true. Rafter had a very pretty motion, imo, but the torque he put on his shoulder to get that kick serve ruined him in the long run.

It does seem that players who play very smoothly have fewer injuries. Kafelnikov and Sampras come to mind. But people used to say that Martina had few injuries because of her fluid style, and then she was having dreadful foot problems all along. The awful thing is that any player can have a career threatening injury at anytime. That's why, they all need to make the most of the glorious times because they are short lived at best.

I have also noticed that very heavy bodied players seem to have more trouble with injuries. But I don't think that anyone looked at Guga or Magnus and said....... boy, their playing styles are going to lead to injury. But, it seems that the torque they both placed on their hips was too much for their bodies.

And also there is that dirty little secret that steroids lead to nagging injuries. ;)

star
12-24-2003, 08:28 PM
No point in trying to get an Andy fan to understand, but i know some people in the Federer forum might know what i mean ;)

Well, of course, people who agree with you are going to agree with you. No challenge there. ;)

Deboogle!.
12-24-2003, 09:10 PM
No point in trying to get an Andy fan to understand, but i know some people in the Federer forum might know what i mean ;)

Uh...understand what, exactly? Everyone here understands what you're trying to say. We're just saying that it's patently irrelevant to who has a better serve, as star has so eloquently tried to point out. You also seem to be missing my point that every player has trouble with other players. We can dig out some of Roger's more *stellar* head-to-heads with players that Roger is certainly better than, if you'd like. But as I suggested several posts ago, why don't we end this now before it gets ugly.

So, how about those serves? I happen to really like Mardy Fish's also :)

J. Corwin
12-24-2003, 09:24 PM
Oh Did He!!! Guess some people just dont understand when someone's 2 good!! ;) Even Roddick admitted after their TMC Match that federer was just beyond him. :eek: Its called outclassing Andy, Johnny Mac knows this as well. Already refererd Federer as one of the best EVER!! After all no shame in Andy losing to one of the best ever!!!

Can you even stay on topic??

We're not talking about who has the better overall game here. (which would be Federer)

We're talking about who has the best SERVE. Ok lemme spell it out for you: S-E-R-V-E.

Did you get that?

It's obvious that you're going off topic to make Federer look better, cuz you don't have facts that say that Federer is the better server. I refer you to one of my previous posts in this thread where I mentioned that head-to-head records don't matter.

Federer may serve better than Roddick at their bests, but Roddick is more consistent. So we look at the % of service games held (not aggregate numbers). Andy has the higher percentage in that category.

If you want to say that Roger has a better serve...fine. But at least stay on topic and derive a meaningful argument.

Fedex
12-24-2003, 11:14 PM
Oh, Will this EVER end????!!!! Originally i simply said Federer can serve better aganst good returners(usually more aces) but still wont get the average amt. of aces as Andy will in a match. Ferrero DOSNT count because he's not that great of a returner anyway.(not like Agassi,Nalby,or Federer)

Deboogle!.
12-24-2003, 11:31 PM
huh? Since when was the topic about who serves well against good returners? Federer isn't the only decent returner out there.

Nalbandian is a great returner and Agassi is the best ever. 'nuff said. FedEx, you should probably quit while you're ahead.

J. Corwin
12-24-2003, 11:48 PM
Oh, Will this EVER end????!!!! Originally i simply said Federer can serve better aganst good returners(usually more aces) but still wont get the average amt. of aces as Andy will in a match. Ferrero DOSNT count because he's not that great of a returner anyway.(not like Agassi,Nalby,or Federer)

Your argument only stipulates that Roger serves better in relation to playing against Andre or David. It doesn't show that Roger is in fact a better overall server than Andy is.

The topic at hand here is not about who serves better against the players you have so chosen. It is about who is the better server overall, match in and match out.

Fedex
12-24-2003, 11:49 PM
OK, hopefully this post will settle things. Andy has the best overall serve(aces, speed ect.) but besides the fact that Federer can usually get more aces against better returners, i feel his placement, & the way he mixes his speed are better than Andys. But no doubt if Andy improves in those areas as well his serve will be the best hands down. Although i'd like to say that Federer's serving motion is more graceful than Andy's(like all of his strokes) but still isnt overall as good as Andys. (Yet, he can still improve his speed you know)

Havok
12-25-2003, 05:36 PM
Next time, Naldo check the stats correctly!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: I would say Andy's the best server against other players, BUT when he plays someone who can consistintly return it(even on grass,where his serve is at its best) Andy gets into trouble. He's got a pretty good forehand and decent volleys(at his best) but besides that he has no weapons to contend with a more complete player.
omg please stop it you're killing me!!!!!!!!!!:haha::haha::haha::haha:
ok someone mentioned good returners here and they were Agassi, FEderer, and Nalbandian. ok so lets have a go at it. Queens club semis 2003, yet again as i mentioned. Andy hit 13 aces in a stretch of 15-16 service points played. he clearly had trouble with serving aces didnt he:rolleyes:
he's beaten Nalbandian 2 times this year, 3 overall, and hit the most aces he ever hit in a match 40+ in US Open semis. he was clearly having trouble there as well:rolleyes:
yes Andy has trouble with Federer, nobody is denying that, but the Roddick/federer thing you keep on bringing up, can be also thrown back into your court with the Federer/Nalbandian scenario. it works both ways buddy
oh and since when is Ferrer a bad returner? this is news to me i always thought Ferrero was a pretty good returner

star
12-25-2003, 05:52 PM
I know these ATP statistics are meaningless and manipulated soley to serve the purposes of Andy fans, but really Ferrero fans should be in an uprorar about their man's returning abilities being dismissed.

Remember. These aren't totals but percentages. :)

Points won returning first serve:
1. Massu
2. Chela
3. Costa
4. Federer
5. Ferrero
6. Coria :hearts:
7. Moya
8. Gaudio
9. Spadea
10.Kucera

Points won returning 2nd serve:
1. Massu
2. Federer
3. Ferrero
4. Ginepri
5. Nalbandian
6. Spadea
7. Calleri
8. Clement
9. Mantilla
10. Ferer

Return games won:
1. Coria :hearts:
2. Agassi
3. Hewitt
4. Nalbandian
5. Schuettler
6. Ferrero
7. Gaudio
8. Massu
9. Sanchez
10. Saretta


So you see, Ferrero is a very good returner. He's near the top in all the categories. :)

Deboogle!.
12-25-2003, 05:55 PM
*squints* star I really can't tell.... how do you feel about Coria?

and for the record I always thought Ferrero was a pretty good returner also.

star
12-25-2003, 06:02 PM
I cant help it. My fingers just do that when I type his:hearts: name. :angel:

Deboogle!.
12-25-2003, 06:14 PM
hahaha like a reflex, eh? ;)

Fedex
12-25-2003, 07:43 PM
Actually its too bad you cant check how many aces RodDICK got in the Nalbandian match where Nalby won in straits. Besides that US Open match, if Nalby hadnt had to Play like 4 matches in 3 DAYS he would have won that match in strait sets, probobly no tiebreakers & Andy would of been lucky to get over 20 aces!!! After all despite his injury he still almost won in strait sets. And nobody returns Andy's serve better than Federer!! I cant wait tell thay play again so he can hush up this so called rivalry with Federer!! Sory but all great rivalries that i've seen didnt start out with one player winning so much. As long as Federer's healthy & dosnt choke he'll win all their matches on ANY surface, every time they Play!! Great champs like Federer & Sampras dont have any rivals!! Well sampras had agassi, but thats about it!!!

Fedex
12-25-2003, 07:44 PM
Oh BTW this post is a reply to Naldo's last post here!

Fedex
12-25-2003, 07:58 PM
BTW, Andy fans, i've already stated Andy has the best all-around serve!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: . I guess this war will never end. My vote went to Roger, but Andy's serve is more of a weapon!! I mean, i cant imagine where Andy would be if he didnt have that serve or Brad Gilbert!!

Deboogle!.
12-25-2003, 08:23 PM
I'm not going to even qualify most of what you said because it doesn't deserve it, but do you really expect us to take you seriously when you write this? RodDICK

I mean come on, grow up. If you want to have a serious discussion about it, we're more than open to a mature respectful discussion, but when you bring down the level to about age 14, then don't expect us to return with anything worthwhile.

Fedex
12-25-2003, 08:28 PM
I'm not the 1st 2 call Andy that!!

J. Corwin
12-25-2003, 08:30 PM
BTW, Andy fans, i've already stated Andy has the best all-around serve!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: . I guess this war will never end. My vote went to Roger, but Andy's serve is more of a weapon!! I mean, i cant imagine where Andy would be if he didnt have that serve or Brad Gilbert!!

Good for you.

Deboogle!.
12-25-2003, 08:30 PM
oh so because someone else does it, that means it's mature? oookkkkk :rolleyes: whatever you say!

J. Corwin
12-25-2003, 08:30 PM
I'm not the 1st 2 call Andy that!!

So you follow what other people do? If they shoot themselves, you do that too?

Fedex
12-25-2003, 08:35 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha: haha: OHHHHHH. well those who have posted it before arent andy fans! And clearly im not :cool:

Deboogle!.
12-25-2003, 08:36 PM
your point is????????????? I don't care who does it or even why. It's still immature!

star
12-25-2003, 08:37 PM
Clearly.

But, at least put yourself in the league of the intelligent Andy non-fans. :angel:

Fedex
12-25-2003, 08:41 PM
OK Then!!! :retard:

J. Corwin
12-25-2003, 08:41 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha: haha: OHHHHHH. well those who have posted it before arent andy fans! And clearly im not :cool:

So all non-Andy fans are one and the same. Ah, I see.

Deboogle!.
12-25-2003, 08:42 PM
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee this has become a lot of fun!

TennisLurker
12-27-2003, 04:31 PM
I know these ATP statistics are meaningless and manipulated soley to serve the purposes of Andy fans, but really Ferrero fans should be in an uprorar about their man's returning abilities being dismissed.

Remember. These aren't totals but percentages. :)

Points won returning first serve:
1. Massu
2. Chela
3. Costa
4. Federer
5. Ferrero
6. Coria :hearts:
7. Moya
8. Gaudio
9. Spadea
10.Kucera

Points won returning 2nd serve:
1. Massu
2. Federer
3. Ferrero
4. Ginepri
5. Nalbandian
6. Spadea
7. Calleri
8. Clement
9. Mantilla
10. Ferer

Return games won:
1. Coria :hearts:
2. Agassi
3. Hewitt
4. Nalbandian
5. Schuettler
6. Ferrero
7. Gaudio
8. Massu
9. Sanchez
10. Saretta


So you see, Ferrero is a very good returner. He's near the top in all the categories. :)

Ferrero is not a very good returner, havent you noticed that in this lists you have Massu, Chela, Gaudio, Saretta, Ferrero, Coria, Costa, Sanchez, Calleri, Mantilla, Ferrer and Moya?

They are all clay courters who play most of the year on clay, where the serve is not the greatest weapon ,breaks of serve are more common and returning serve is easier.
That is why they all appear so high in this lists.
From those lists the only gus who are great returning serves are Agassi, Hewitt, Nalbandian, Kucera.

I prefer tennis on clay, but do you really think Costa,Moya or Gaudio are great returners?

star
12-27-2003, 04:46 PM
I think Moya is a very good returner. :)

I've watched Ferrero play for sometime and I think he is a good returner. He isn't one of the absolutely fabulous returners of all time, but he is very good. I got into tennis by watching a fabulous returner, so believe me, I do appreciate a good return game. :)

Tingu
12-29-2003, 01:29 AM
Roddick :banana:

Ma. Estefania
12-29-2003, 01:37 AM
I'm not a Roddick's fan, but I gotta admit that in the "latest" times, his serve has been the "best", taking this word as the most effective at hard moments and tough matches too.

beckermeister
12-30-2003, 06:44 PM
Really this question should not have to be asked. Anyone that serves 130 mph and is consistantly around 70% on first serves is clearly in a league of his own. As just posted, it also holds up very well under pressure. In fact, if it were match point who else would you pick to serve? In the history of tennis, only one man would I pick over Roddick to serve a match point and I think we know who that is?

Even if you don't like Roddick, you have to give him credit for the talent he does have...

Action Jackson
12-31-2003, 12:18 PM
becker, you are only stating the obvious about the talent that Roddick has when it comes to serving, that is the foundation his game is built on. Yes, he has one of the best serves in the game, the consistent speed and percentages separate him from the other big servers.

star
01-02-2004, 02:14 AM
Really this question should not have to be asked. Anyone that serves 130 mph and is consistantly around 70% on first serves is clearly in a league of his own. As just posted, it also holds up very well under pressure. In fact, if it were match point who else would you pick to serve? In the history of tennis, only one man would I pick over Roddick to serve a match point and I think we know who that is?

Even if you don't like Roddick, you have to give him credit for the talent he does have...

One would think. :)

lsy
01-02-2004, 02:20 AM
As far as who had used the serve to his best advantage in winning matches, Andy clearly has the best serve among all this year, in my opinion.

And Bunk, the way you kept insisting Andy was so "obviously" not even close to his best effort in TMS is just as bad as those who kept saying Federer's lost to Andy in Montreal was just him tanking (which always have you "jumping" into defensive mode). The only difference is that you always try to be defensive in a more "diplomatic" way. Somebody had mentioned somewhere that you're pretty bias in opinion, and somehow from my observance for the past 2 or 3 mths being here, I actually agree. Nevertheless, it's kind of interesting to read how you defend so diplomatically sometimes...

lsy
01-02-2004, 02:30 AM
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not good to give opinion in a more diplomatic way, just that it's amusing to see you commenting others here as bias or double standard when you're also clearly one of those :p

Deboogle!.
01-02-2004, 03:02 AM
uhhh..... well, I think there's a difference between someone losing in a 3rd set tiebreaker and being broken twice (or was it even 3 times?). It's kind of hard to say someone stopped trying in a match that went to a third-set tiebreaker. Roger may not have been playing his best, or even close, at the end of that match but I saw it and I wouldn't say that he gave up - he just didn't have his best day. Whereas, Andy, especially during the second set of the TMC SF, wasn't going for any of his normal big serves or shots or anything, and it was just really clear to me (and many other Andy fans and others) that he saw the end in sight and wanted to get off the court as quickly as possible lol.

Plus, I'm not trying to take away from Roger's win. Roger would've won against Andy (or anyone else I'd venture to guess) no matter what. But Andy stopped caring and it's not like I'm the only one that feels that way (I even read an article today by a journalist who isn't particularly a huge Andy fan who said it was obvious he didn't really care once he'd secured #1). And I'm also only saying it about this one particular match, it's not like I say this every time Andy loses or whatever.

The difference, to me, is that many (not all of course) Roger fans slight/take away from Andy's win because Roger wasn't playing well or whatever, and I never said that about Roger's win in Houston. Yes I've said that Andy didn't appear to be trying very hard, but I've also said that even if Andy was playing his best, Roger would almost surely have won anyway. On the other hand, and I can find it probably 15 times on this board where Roger fans just cannot credit Andy with his win, for whatever reason.

And to me that is a big difference. If you call it a double standard that's your opinion and it's not worth me trying to change that - it's (unfortunately) unlikely we'll ever see it the same way. For the record, and I've said it many times all over this board, to me a win is a win. Yea there's choking and whatever, but the person who wins wins, the opponent doesn't lose. I'd just rather be more positive about it and credit the person who hung in there and won, even if maybe the other person "should have won." So to say that the losing player tanked/threw/choked the match is slighting the winner IMO. And I said none of these things about Andy in that match to try to slight Roger's win. In fact, the reason why I always bring up Andy not trying very had (especially on the Andy board when it comes up) is because his behavior in that match concerned me for HIS sake, because no one wants to see their favorite player play with such little effort, not because I'm trying to say anything about Roger at all. I don't know how I can put it any simpler: Roger was playing the best tennis that week, in every match, and he would've beaten everyone who came across his path even if they were playing at 100%. I can't be much clearer than that lol

So whatever, this is way too long. Sure I'd like you to understand what I'm saying and at least try it from my perspective, but I won't go nuts trying. If you don't understand what I'm trying to differentiate, or don't agree with my point, then it would make sense to see me as a hypocrite I suppose, and I can't force you to see my point so there's not a whole lot I can about that, is there? :lol:

MisterQ
01-02-2004, 03:30 AM
In recent months, I think Roddick's serve has been the best and most reliable weapon. Philippoussis certainly has a tremendous serve, but I think Roddick's is more consistently "on" these days. If we are going to talk in a broader sense about who "backs up" his serve the best, there are arguments to be made for Federer, Ferrero, or even Agassi, but I didn't take that to be the question at hand.

lsy
01-02-2004, 03:43 AM
ha...I don't know any players will actually just don't care about winning right after gaining the top spot??? As far as I had watched Andy's game, he's just not that sort of players who don't care, not especially when he's just clinched the no.1 spot. I cannot imagine any player who wouldn't want to strengthen their worth after that achievement by coming out as the winner in the last tournament of the year? Certainly not Andy at his competitive self, I thought Andy fan will know him better.

In fact I thought among the top three, why he's up at top apart from him being a good player of course, is because he's got the "heart" in winning and hanging on there slightly more than the other two.

It just amuses me to see this comment of him losing the heart to win in an argument about him losing matches, but the opposite to be commented about him being the most determine to win despite not being the most talented in argument about who's has the most talent etc...if you know what I mean.

I know you're not trying to take away Roger's credit (well obviously neither you nor Jim Mac can anyway after his brilliance performance for that week), that's why I said you always defend in a "diplomatic" way. My point is that it's pure amusing to read some of your posts defending Andy in different threads of different topics sometimes. And if you really think "a win is a win", then maybe you should stop saying Andy not being his best or having the heart to win at TMC so very often, but just said Roger played his best, full stop...That's what I will call as a true believer of "a win is a win" and distinguished you with other bias posters. The only difference I can see however between you and others is that you so called try to be "fair" while giving bias opinion while others just can't be bother. Though my feeling about which is more "entertaining" or "agitating" rather fluctuates...

Well my points stated and so had yours. Guess we will still stay as "I can't force you to see my point" and "You can't force me to see yours"...which pretty much is what kept this board entertaining anyway.

Deboogle!.
01-02-2004, 04:24 AM
ha...I don't know any players will actually just don't care about winning right after gaining the top spot??? As far as I had watched Andy's game, he's just not that sort of players who don't care, not especially when he's just clinched the no.1 spot. I cannot imagine any player who wouldn't want to strengthen their worth after that achievement by coming out as the winner in the last tournament of the year? Certainly not Andy at his competitive self, I thought Andy fan will know him better.


Well yes, 100% agreed.... that's why it was so disconcerting to me LOL!!


It just amuses me to see this comment of him losing the heart to win in an argument about him losing matches, but the opposite to be commented about him being the most determine to win despite not being the most talented in argument about who's has the most talent etc...if you know what I mean.


no actually, I don't understand :( If you feel like explaining it, I'd like to know what you mean though. As far as I've seen from Andy though, if this is what you mean, this was a one-time thing and I'm hoping it stays that way (just as I am sure that Ferrero fans do not want to see him repeat his end of the year ever again lol).

And if you really think "a win is a win", then maybe you should stop saying Andy not being his best or having the heart to win at TMC so very often, but just said Roger played his best, full stop...That's what I will call as a true believer of "a win is a win" and distinguished you with other bias posters.

Well I guess I believe those are mutually exclusive. Because yes I have said played Roger played THE BEST absolutely (I don't want to say he played his best because if he's really as talented as everyone believes, then he can play even better too, right? :)), no doubt about it. Roger could have played his best AND Andy could have showed uncharacteristically low effort, which is what I believe happened :) Just like Roger fans could fairly say that Roger didn't play his best but also give props to Andy for hanging in there and stepping up when he had to (which I haven't seen anyone say).

The only difference I can see however between you and others is that you so called try to be "fair" while giving bias opinion while others just can't be bother.

Well I appreciate you noticing that. I really do try to be fair. Plus I have nothing against Roger anyway, or actually any other player. There's no one on the tour I could really say I do not like, so I don't have a reason to be unfair I don't think. Humans can't be totally objective and I don't pretend to. Obviously I will see things from the perspective of an Andy fan and I can't help it, I'm human. But I am good at seeing things from other perspectives. It's what I have to do every day in my studies, and anyway it's a hobby of mine (ok I know I'm a dork :p), so I guess I expect other people to do that too and I know it's a lot to ask.

CooCooCachoo
01-09-2004, 05:54 PM
I went with Younes El Aynaoui, just because he deserves to have the best serve of the players out there! He is a great player, with a great personality! And he is by far a more complete player than Philippoussis or Rusedski, or perhaps even Roddick for that matter.

KCVH
01-09-2004, 08:55 PM
T. Dent isn't on the list? My pick the Scud just before Max, Taylor and Ivan L.

Fedex
01-09-2004, 11:13 PM
Yea, Dent deserves to be here, as well. One of the best serves in my opinion. He's the only player that can hit it as consistantly big as roddick.

Deboogle!.
01-09-2004, 11:51 PM
the problem with Taylor, thus far anyway since I'm sure he'll improve, is that he double faults A LOT... and often at big moments, too... but yes he is a monster server, which makes his serve-volleying even more impressive :)

Fedex
01-09-2004, 11:59 PM
Also Phillippoussis hits alot of DF's. I believe in his DC Match against Ferrero he hit like 18 double faults!!

Havok
01-10-2004, 12:08 AM
thats because their serves are huge but not very reliable. they have lots of aces, but they hit almost an equal number of doublefaults

Deboogle!.
01-10-2004, 02:11 AM
yea.... so as great as Flip and Taylor serve, because of that alone pretty much I wouldn't say they have the best serves.

J. Corwin
01-10-2004, 03:34 AM
Best serve = most effective serve (winning you the most points)

...not based purely on aces