Puerta's career is over? [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Puerta's career is over?

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Jorbaty
12-01-2005, 05:25 PM
Hi, I heard rumors that next week, ITF will announce Puerta's career will be over, since he'll receive a lifetime ban. Does anybody know more facts about this? Thanks!

Marat Safinator
12-01-2005, 05:41 PM
i hope not

Daniela_CABJ
12-01-2005, 06:14 PM
I read something on the internet about an hour ago... let me search it again and I'll post it...

Daniela_CABJ
12-01-2005, 06:25 PM
Here it is:
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/12/01/deportes/d-06101.htm
sorry it's in spanish, but it says that an independent antidoping porgram will have a meeting about this case on Tuesday. but ITF didn't say anything official.

I think we'll have to wait...

sol
12-01-2005, 06:30 PM
4 La pena. Si Puerta fuera culpable podría recibir una suspensión de por vida ya que sería reincidente.

I hope... it is not true

sigmagirl91
12-01-2005, 06:39 PM
I hope this is not true. Puerta's already been through enough.

prima donna
12-01-2005, 07:00 PM
If he's violated the Anti-Doping policy, in it's intended spirit, Puerta fully deserves to suffer the consequences. That's life, if you cheat on your job (depending on your line of work) the same will happen, he is not special because of his ties to the world of sports.

El Legenda
12-01-2005, 07:02 PM
I hope this is not true. Puerta's already been through enough.

Because he cheated. He did it, not anyone esle.

Denaon
12-01-2005, 07:07 PM
Mike........shush!

Daniela_CABJ
12-01-2005, 07:09 PM
Because he cheated. He did it, not anyone esle.

Last time he took something for his asthma and now it's allowed to use it.
so you first f*ck up a player's life and then you allow the rest to the same he did... I don't think that's fair

El Legenda
12-01-2005, 07:18 PM
Last time he took something for his asthma and now it's allowed to use it.
so you first f*ck up a player's life and then you allow the rest to the same he did... I don't think that's fair

whats the excuse gonna be for this time? asthma again? knee medications? someone else did it? he didnt know?

why do you use "you" i didnt do anything :rolls:

DrJules
12-01-2005, 07:18 PM
Because he cheated. He did it, not anyone esle.

Wait for the details before condeming.

*Ljubica*
12-01-2005, 07:19 PM
Last time he took something for his asthma and now it's allowed to use it.
so you first f*ck up a player's life and then you allow the rest to the same he did... I don't think that's fair

I agree with you Atenea - and there is a huge amount of difference between knowingly taking a substance to enhance your performance, and making a genuine error in filling in forms about your medication - that may well be considered stupid or careless, but not evil or purposeful cheating. Trouble is, GM is full of people ready to shout "cheat" and "doper" and "scum" without any knowledge of the facts :rolleyes:

El Legenda
12-01-2005, 07:20 PM
Wait for the details before condeming.

i was talking about the 1st time, as you can see, i quoted Sigmagirl, and her statement talks about the past. its pretty clear :)

lau
12-01-2005, 07:20 PM
whats the excuse gonna be for this time? asthma again? knee medications? someone else did it? he didnt know?

Nothing official yet.
And he has not only been through a suspension, he has been through other tough things in his life before coming back to pro tennis ;) So, not everything was because he "cheated" ...

Denaon
12-01-2005, 07:23 PM
Nothing official yet.
And he has not only been through a suspension, he has been through other tough things in his life before coming back to pro tennis ;) So, not everything was because he "cheated" ...
Exactly, and I think Tiff meant about that.

DrJules
12-01-2005, 07:23 PM
whats the excuse gonna be for this time? asthma again? knee medications? someone else did it? he didnt know?

why do you use "you" i didnt do anything :rolls:

Some medication on the banned list does appear to be normal medicine that anyone may receive from a doctor for their health and wellbeing. I cannot understand why ordinary medical drugs are banned.

El Legenda
12-01-2005, 07:26 PM
Some medication on the banned list does appear to be normal medicine that anyone may receive from a doctor for their health and wellbeing. I cannot understand why ordinary medical drugs are banned.

there a medications that can be found to replace those others, and im sure if a players is hurt and needs the medication with banned substances in it, that player can talk to the ATP or ITF and get it cleared. but they dont they take the medication, and + something else :rolleyes: then blame it on the ordinary medications.

i mean come on these guys are not stupid they know what they are doing and what they are putting in there bodies. If not like this is a huge problem and it keeps happening to a lot of players.

DIRECT
12-01-2005, 07:28 PM
It's funny how many sportists suffer asthma... :lol: There are whole teams with asthmatics...

sigmagirl91
12-01-2005, 07:52 PM
Because he cheated. He did it, not anyone esle.

I think you missed my point. What I meant, is that Puerta was accused by a kangaroo court (L'Equipe, for those keeping score) without having been formally charged with anything. And the resultant backlash has probably had its effect personally and professionally. So, before anyone throws the book at Puerta for good, we must let the tribunal do its job.

mangoes
12-01-2005, 07:53 PM
Well, I like Puerto and I hope he did not do what he is accused of doing. I am going to hope that it was all a mistake.

However, if he did do what he is accused of doing, then I can't feel sorry for him. He will have to deal with the consequences.

I really do hope this is all a misunderstanding.

Frederick16
12-01-2005, 08:37 PM
i think we will not really miss him. nobody missed him the first time when he 'forgot' to give an explanation for his little pill against his headache (or something)

Galaxystorm
12-01-2005, 08:40 PM
i think we will not really miss him. nobody missed him the first time when he 'forgot' to give an explanation for his little pill against his headache (or something)

The difference is the first time that he came up positive you didn't know him :rolleyes: and now you does .

I'm not a Puerta's fan but you should talk for yourself since we are talking about a usual top 10 lately , i think he deserves more respect than you are showing

Chloe le Bopper
12-01-2005, 08:41 PM
i think we will not really miss him. nobody missed him the first time when he 'forgot' to give an explanation for his little pill against his headache (or something)
Speaking for others and being totally ignorant.

Lurvely!

Frederick16
12-01-2005, 09:19 PM
i saw him at rg this year. he could walk around like a nobody...

mandoura
12-01-2005, 09:20 PM
I agree with you Atenea - and there is a huge amount of difference between knowingly taking a substance to enhance your performance, and making a genuine error in filling in forms about your medication - that may well be considered stupid or careless, but not evil or purposeful cheating. Trouble is, GM is full of people ready to shout "cheat" and "doper" and "scum" without any knowledge of the facts :rolleyes:

I am with you and Atenea on this Rosie.

sigmagirl91
12-01-2005, 09:20 PM
i saw him at rg this year. he could walk around like a nobody...

And that was BEFORE he reached the final.....remember that.

MariaV
12-01-2005, 09:23 PM
I hope this is not true. Puerta's already been through enough.
Exactly Tiff. I so hope it's not true. :sad:

Frederick16
12-01-2005, 09:23 PM
so you say that you think a player is worth all the praise for being a possible one day fly! it comes to mind: where is MaliVai ???

michelleg
12-01-2005, 09:27 PM
It's funny how many sportists suffer asthma... :lol: There are whole teams with asthmatics...

Pssst, take a look at your signature. THAT is truly funny.

sigmagirl91
12-01-2005, 09:34 PM
I agree with you Atenea - and there is a huge amount of difference between knowingly taking a substance to enhance your performance, and making a genuine error in filling in forms about your medication - that may well be considered stupid or careless, but not evil or purposeful cheating. Trouble is, GM is full of people ready to shout "cheat" and "doper" and "scum" without any knowledge of the facts :rolleyes:

Let me add my :worship: as well, Rosie. Well said.

DrJules
12-01-2005, 09:37 PM
Could you image being judged in a court by 12 members of MTF. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

jacobhiggins
12-02-2005, 01:41 AM
If he's found guilty, he deserves it and should be known as a disgrace in the sport of tennis. Cheaters in sports undermines everything sports is about, if he is guilty, Good Riddance!!! The players KNOW what they were taking, saying they don't know is just turning a blind eye, it was no accident if he is found guilty again. Teams and players in differents sports have payed off doctors and have claimed they didn't know what they were taking, but it's a ridiculous statement and if it is found an illegal substance was found in his body again HE CHEATED LMAO, there is no accidents about it.

sigmagirl91
12-02-2005, 01:55 AM
Could you image being judged in a court by 12 members of MTF. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Hell no...and I don't want to either.

Daniela_CABJ
12-02-2005, 02:36 AM
I think the first ones we should judge are the ones in charge of the Antidoping program. They should fix that first, and then start all over again.
2 players this year were found positive on the same substance and one was suspended for 2 years and the other one for 2 months... do I have to say the names? :rolleyes:
Don't come to me and tell me this system is fair!!!

Action Jackson
12-02-2005, 02:41 AM
Could you image being judged in a court by 12 members of MTF. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

More chance of getting a fair trial in the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea than on MTF.

Merton
12-02-2005, 02:49 AM
It is amazing, people decide based on newspaper reports, everything will be clear soon enough.

Billabong
12-02-2005, 03:32 AM
:eek:

buddyholly
12-02-2005, 06:46 AM
It's time to show him the door.

Carlita
12-02-2005, 07:38 AM
I agree with you Atenea - and there is a huge amount of difference between knowingly taking a substance to enhance your performance, and making a genuine error in filling in forms about your medication - that may well be considered stupid or careless, but not evil or purposeful cheating. Trouble is, GM is full of people ready to shout "cheat" and "doper" and "scum" without any knowledge of the facts :rolleyes::yeah: well said!

I'm not a big Puerta fan....he got in the way of my favs (especially Moya) too much :lol: but I hope he won't get banned for life! :awww: Carlos needs to get his chance for revenge :D

Nothing's official yet is it? Or have the MTF GM folks decided already?? (oh, they did that a few months ago no?:rolleyes: )

MariaV
12-02-2005, 07:42 AM
It's time to show him the door.
Not funny, sorry.

Carlita
12-02-2005, 07:58 AM
It's time to show him the door.what on earth for??? For being sick and having to take medication? Better kick out half the ATP guys then :rolleyes:

Frederick16
12-02-2005, 08:20 AM
and myabe it is all just a rumour! :)

~EMiLiTA~
12-02-2005, 09:46 AM
More chance of getting a fair trial in the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea than on MTF.

:lol:

i also hope these rumours aren't true

sigmagirl91
12-02-2005, 10:47 AM
:lol:

i also hope these rumours aren't true

Me too, especially since certain people here are eager and willing to play the role of judge, jury, and executioner.

vamos argentina1
12-02-2005, 01:14 PM
I think the first ones we should judge are the ones in charge of the Antidoping program. They should fix that first, and then start all over again.
2 players this year were found positive on the same substance and one was suspended for 2 years and the other one for 2 months... do I have to say the names? :rolleyes:
Don't come to me and tell me this system is fair!!!

who r the 2 players? canas 2 yrs and who is the one of 2 months? bogomolov jr? was it same substance really?

Horatio Caine
12-02-2005, 01:23 PM
It's time to show him the door.

Well, why don't we show half of the ATP Tour to the door then...

...players who rank, players who are bad sports / losers etc etc. :rolleyes:

*Ljubica*
12-02-2005, 01:34 PM
Well, why don't we show half of the ATP Tour to the door then...

...players who rank, players who are bad sports / losers etc etc. :rolleyes:

But surely you know the GM rules by now Jez - there is one rule for "cheating, doper scum" :devil: (especially if they come from Argentina) - and another rule for some others. Sometimes folks on GM remind me of the peasants during the French revolution who took their lunch and their knitting to the guillotine to watch the executions. I guess it's cheaper than a night out.

Federerthebest
12-02-2005, 01:37 PM
Waiting for the responses of the idiots on this board if Puerta is found guilty; 'we still trust you Mariano', 'the ITF/ATP is biased against Argentines', 'the doping tribunal is fundamentally flawed', 'this would never happen if it was Federer or Nadal who were accused' :rolleyes:. Like the :retard:s who still support Canas.

lau
12-02-2005, 01:47 PM
Waiting for the responses of the idiots on this board if Puerta is found guilty; 'we still trust you Mariano', 'the ITF/ATP is biased against Argentines', 'the doping tribunal is fundamentally flawed', 'this would never happen if it was Federer or Nadal who were accused' :rolleyes:. Like the :retard:s who still support Canas.
Awwwww, please donīt feel so upset for the idiotsī posts... :hug:
We all know you`re superior to anyone in MTF :worship: :worship:

DrJules
12-02-2005, 01:50 PM
Awwwww, please donīt feel so upset for the idiotsī posts... :hug:
We all know you`re superior to anyone in MTF :worship: :worship:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Denaon
12-02-2005, 02:10 PM
Waiting for the responses of the idiots on this board if Puerta is found guilty; 'we still trust you Mariano', 'the ITF/ATP is biased against Argentines', 'the doping tribunal is fundamentally flawed', 'this would never happen if it was Federer or Nadal who were accused' :rolleyes:. Like the :retard:s who still support Canas.
Here's one for your joy:

I still believe in you Willy Caņas!!!
And I support you till the end Mariano!!!!!!!!!!

I'd rather be :retard:ed and trustful than :rolleyes: ironic and :smash: and retard basher...let us alone!!

*Ljubica*
12-02-2005, 02:13 PM
Here's one for your joy:

I still believe in you Willy Caņas!!!
And I support you till the end Mariano!!!!!!!!!!

I'd rather be :retard:ed and trustful than :rolleyes: ironic and :smash: and retard basher...let us alone!!

:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

hitchhiker
12-02-2005, 02:18 PM
Here's one for your joy:

I still believe in you Willy Caņas!!!
And I support you till the end Mariano!!!!!!!!!!

I'd rather be :retard:ed and trustful than :rolleyes: ironic and :smash: and retard basher...let us alone!!

Your signature is beginning to look like a drug syndicate

Denaon
12-02-2005, 02:34 PM
At least I have a signature and I stand for what I trust and believe, either right or wrong.

(To hitchhicker (and others):

Do you have a signature? Or have you stated anything at all, that reflects the sane part of your brain? I haven't seen it.
I might know you very little, among other posters that I sincerely don't know a bit, but I think there's a huge lack of real commitment to anything here. Do you know how tough it is to support these guys?? It's no easy task at all.. and I do it because I trust them. Period. (just as the other loyal posters that keep on supporting as me)

hitchhiker
12-02-2005, 02:43 PM
Do you know how tough it is to support these guys?? It's no easy task at all

there is a bright side. You wont be bored during the off season as you can still cheer for Puerta in the court case.

lau
12-02-2005, 02:47 PM
there is a bright side. You wont be bored during the off season as you can still cheer for Puerta in the court case.
I really donīt understand why you (and others) are so agressive with Puerta, Caņas, Beck, etc, etc fans... :shrug:
It obviously sucks the situation they (as fans) are going through... Why being agressive??

star
12-02-2005, 02:48 PM
But surely you know the GM rules by now Jez - there is one rule for "cheating, doper scum" :devil: (especially if they come from Argentina) - and another rule for some others. Sometimes folks on GM remind me of the peasants during the French revolution who took their lunch and their knitting to the guillotine to watch the executions. I guess it's cheaper than a night out.

Sometimes the shoe is on the other foot and sometimes it's on yours.

hitchhiker
12-02-2005, 02:51 PM
I really donīt understand why you (and others) are so agressive with Puerta, Caņas, Beck, etc, etc fans... :shrug:
It obviously sucks the situation they (as fans) are going through... Why being agressive??

i was never aggressive.
its obvious why people are assuming puerta is guilty. if he is found innocent then good for him.
canas was convicted.

Carlita
12-02-2005, 02:51 PM
there is a bright side. You wont be bored during the off season as you can still cheer for Puerta in the court case.OMG!! You are sooo funny:rolleyes: .....ever thought of a career change????? :rolleyes:

:yawn::yawn::yawn:

hitchhiker
12-02-2005, 02:56 PM
ever thought of a career change?????


yes, whats your point?

star
12-02-2005, 02:56 PM
Here's one for your joy:

I'd rather be :retard:ed and trustful than :rolleyes: ironic and :smash: and retard basher...let us alone!!

There is an in between position, isn't there?

It seems that if one is skeptical of Puerta, one is labled a basher. :rolleyes:

I wish there were more transparency in the process so that I could form a better judgment. Right now, it seems that the "MTF Court" has decided that the testing system is all wrong, unfair, prejudiced, and unjust. However, no one really knows how it operates and no one knows what goes on in the proceedings where a player defends himself.

I work with drug testing frequently. I hear all the excuses that people have about testing positive, and I hear the scientists who give the reasons that those excuses can't be valid. What I have learned from this is that people taking drugs rarely admit to taking them and stick to their stories no matter how ridiculous. So this is my reason for being skeptical when it comes to all those who injest drugs. I don't even wholly believe Coria when he says his injestion was accidental.

lau
12-02-2005, 02:56 PM
i was never aggressive.
its obvious why people are assuming puerta is guilty. if he is found innocent then good for him.
canas was convicted.
You were agressive with a fan (talking about his signature). Hey!, there`s nothing about it ;) I just donīt understand it. I can understand if youīre pissed off with the player, but why "attacking" his fans?? :confused: I just donīt understand it...
And when a player is convicted, I donīt feel angry at him, or start attacking his fans... I find the situation so, so sad that I really feel for the player (whether he was guilty or not, there was intention or not) and specially for his fans.
But I guess itīs just me :scratch: I just feel I can never be ironic or agressive about doping and injuries... :)

shotgun
12-02-2005, 02:59 PM
I don't understand. If he was indeed caught in Roland Garros and if a judgement is really going to take place, then why did not the ITF neither the ATP contact him on the occasion, as it is the normal procedure? :confused:

star
12-02-2005, 02:59 PM
You were agressive with a fan (talking about his signature). Hey!, there`s nothing about it ;)

Wasn't it another poster who was lambasting Hitchhiker about not having a signature. :confused:

Since I don't have a signature, obviously, I can't figure out what having or not having a signature means about a person's beliefs.

DrJules
12-02-2005, 03:00 PM
There is an in between position, isn't there?

It seems that if one is skeptical of Puerta, one is labled a basher. :rolleyes:

I wish there were more transparency in the process so that I could form a better judgment. Right now, it seems that the "MTF Court" has decided that the testing system is all wrong, unfair, prejudiced, and unjust. However, no one really knows how it operates and no one knows what goes on in the proceedings where a player defends himself.

I work with drug testing frequently. I hear all the excuses that people have about testing positive, and I hear the scientists who give the reasons that those excuses can't be valid. What I have learned from this is that people taking drugs rarely admit to taking them and stick to their stories no matter how ridiculous. So this is my reason for being skeptical when it comes to all those who injest drugs. I don't even wholly believe Coria when he says his injestion was accidental.

Good to hear from somebody with more knowledge of the issues regarding drug testing.

Carlita
12-02-2005, 03:01 PM
yes, whats your point?can't you read/think for yourself dear? Why would I explain again???

lau
12-02-2005, 03:03 PM
Wasn't it another poster who was lambasting Hitchhiker about not having a signature. :confused:

Since I don't have a signature, obviously, I can't figure out what having or not having a signature means about a person's beliefs.
You`re right! ;) And I never had a sig til yesterday. :D
I might be biased..., but I think it was a logical reaction (and I donīt agree with it) to feeling attacked :)

EDIT: Just go back and read who started calling " :retard: s" to the fans of certain players, who talked about "drug syndicates" first and who started talking about signatures ;)

hitchhiker
12-02-2005, 03:07 PM
And when a player is convicted, I donīt feel angry at him, or start attacking his fans... I find the situation so, so sad that I really feel for the player (whether he was guilty or not, there was intention or not) and specially for his fans.
But I guess itīs just me :scratch: I just feel I can never be ironic or agressive about doping and injuries... :)

doping and injuries are hardly the same thing and we have very different opinions about drug use in tennis

lau
12-02-2005, 03:10 PM
doping and injuries are hardly the same thing and we have very different opinions about drug use in tennis
I know doping and injuries are VERY different things...., they are just to things I canīt ve ironic about ;)
And maybe we donīt have different opinions about drug use in tennis, I feel itīs very sad, and I guess you might feel the same (maybe I`m wrong). Itīs just that we react in different ways. :)

Denaon
12-02-2005, 03:16 PM
Wasn't it another poster who was lambasting Hitchhiker about not having a signature. :confused:

Since I don't have a signature, obviously, I can't figure out what having or not having a signature means about a person's beliefs.

You don't obviously get the point. I HAVE A SIGNATURE, and it states my support to both Caņas and Puerta.......and I don't need to keep on writing about it coz it's there.
You having no signature does not say anything to me at all, and that for sure means something. And your reaction shows something about you. :rolleyes:
Cola de paja....since you have an argie flag either you know or can figure out what I mean there,

star
12-02-2005, 03:22 PM
Actually, I can't. I'm just have the flag because I support Coria, because I think it's pretty, and because, in general, I like Argentina. I understand your having a signature proclaims something (I've got signatures blocked so it means nothing to me) but I don't understand what not having a signature means.

I admire your passion, but I don't really understand it. I think you must feel you know these players very well. Personally, I think a great deal of Fandom is projection.

Merton
12-02-2005, 03:25 PM
There is an in between position, isn't there?

It seems that if one is skeptical of Puerta, one is labled a basher. :rolleyes:

I wish there were more transparency in the process so that I could form a better judgment. Right now, it seems that the "MTF Court" has decided that the testing system is all wrong, unfair, prejudiced, and unjust. However, no one really knows how it operates and no one knows what goes on in the proceedings where a player defends himself.

I work with drug testing frequently. I hear all the excuses that people have about testing positive, and I hear the scientists who give the reasons that those excuses can't be valid. What I have learned from this is that people taking drugs rarely admit to taking them and stick to their stories no matter how ridiculous. So this is my reason for being skeptical when it comes to all those who injest drugs. I don't even wholly believe Coria when he says his injestion was accidental.

The testing system to detect drugs and the monitoring system to detect drug users are two different things. You obviously need a sound testing system to avoid type 1 and type 2 errors as much as possible (that is false negatives and false positives) but on the other hand the monitoring system is also extremely important. For one, i downright object to the ATP administering this process, it carries obvious conflicts of interest. (Look what happened at track and field after WADA took over monitoring.) Anyway, there is nothing official in this case as far as we know so we can only wait and see, hopefully without pressuming Puerta's guilt before we have even heard of the facts at hand.

star
12-02-2005, 03:28 PM
EDIT: Just go back and read who started calling " :retard: s" to the fans of certain players, who talked about "drug syndicates" first and who started talking about signatures ;)

:lol: :lol: You know sorting out arguments, and who is right and who is wrong in MTF arguments is like deciding who is right and wrong when your children start fighting. It's not always the one who screams who is the victim. ;) I don't really bother trying to figure it out.

There are some who hold their noses very high in the air who in reality are just as involved as the more overt ones.

But, if you've figured out who threw the first punch, I'll believe you. :)

star
12-02-2005, 03:30 PM
The testing system to detect drugs and the monitoring system to detect drug users are two different things. You obviously need a sound testing system to avoid type 1 and type 2 errors as much as possible (that is false negatives and false positives) but on the other hand the monitoring system is also extremely important. For one, i downright object to the ATP administering this process, it carries obvious conflicts of interest. (Look what happened at track and field after WADA took over monitoring.) Anyway, there is nothing official in this case as far as we know so we can only wait and see, hopefully without pressuming Puerta's guilt before we have even heard of the facts at hand.

I'm completely on your side about this. I'd like WADA to handle it too. I'd also like much more information about the player's defenses and the reasons they were accepted or not accepted. Also, I'd like to know the reasons the process takes so long.

Denaon
12-02-2005, 03:38 PM
Actually, I can't. I'm just have the flag because I support Coria, because I think it's pretty, and because, in general, I like Argentina. I understand your having a signature proclaims something (I've got signatures blocked so it means nothing to me) but I don't understand what not having a signature means.

I admire your passion, but I don't really understand it. I think you must feel you know these players very well. Personally, I think a great deal of Fandom is projection.

First of all, I'm not passionate for them, I'm not a fanatical.
second I know nothing more or less than the rest of you, including you wise girl.
third, i'm not projecting anything, I don't want to be or live like they do. I don't live throught their lives and I'm not interested what they do in their private ( non-tennis) life.

Now I think you're wrong when you talk about passion, which I assume you lack. Because, and I give you the benefit of not knowing me, my motivation of standing here, trying to put my words in another language and make it the most logical and understandable, is to do the right thing. Of course, I like and trust them.

You say "I must feel I know them very well", think it over girl, you're pretty wrong to underestimate my intelligence.

NicoFan
12-02-2005, 03:56 PM
Why attack Mariano's fans? I don't understand it. Just because his fans are defending him doesn't mean that they are blind fanatics.

AND NONE OF US HAVE THE INSIDE SCOOP HERE...NO ONE!!! So EVERYONE is just speculating.

Obviously there is something suspect in the way the drug testing is done. The conflict of interest, the constant changes in what is allowed and what isn't allowed, and the amazingly long time it takes to review and notify a player gives people like myself and others reasons to believe that the tests are not being conducted properly, that there are hidden agendas, and that there is bias in the process.

The ATP/ITF needs to fix the problem - because they are losing credibility quickly and taking the fun out of watching this fantastic sport.

And for the record - I support Mariano. And I still support Willy.

star
12-02-2005, 04:00 PM
You have misunderstood me. I do admire your passion. I wasn't being sarcastic.

When I say you must feel you know them very well, I only gathered that from your posts saying that you had complete trust in Puerta. I wouldn't trust somebody that much unless I knew them very well indeed.

"Projection" doesn't mean that you want to live like the tennis players or to live vicariously through their lives, but means rather that a fan projects his personal wishes or personality traits or any other quality he might admire onto the player while really knowing very little about that person. Sorry, if I caused you to think something I didn't mean at all.

Of course, you can also project qualities you dislike onto a player, and that's often done as well. ;)

Denaon
12-02-2005, 04:05 PM
You have misunderstood me. I do admire your passion. I wasn't being sarcastic.

When I say you must feel you know them very well, I only gathered that from your posts saying that you had complete trust in Puerta. I wouldn't trust somebody that much unless I knew them very well indeed.

"Projection" doesn't mean that you want to live like the tennis players or to live vicariously through their lives, but means rather that a fan projects his personal wishes or personality traits or any other quality he might admire onto the player while really knowing very little about that person. Sorry, if I caused you to think something I didn't mean at all.

Of course, you can also project qualities you dislike onto a player, and that's often done as well. ;)

I might have misundertood you...:scratch: ;)
One more thing...either you TRUST or DON'T TRUST......
I can't trust a little, so my complete trust is just TRUST ;)

lau
12-02-2005, 04:06 PM
:lol: :lol: You know sorting out arguments, and who is right and who is wrong in MTF arguments is like deciding who is right and wrong when your children start fighting. It's not always the one who screams who is the victim. ;) I don't really bother trying to figure it out.


I did this time because it really bothered me from the first post. :)
There are some who hold their noses very high in the air who in reality are just as involved as the more overt ones.

I agree

But, if you've figured out who threw the first punch, I'll believe you. :)

Thanks :)

IDJ49
12-03-2005, 12:23 AM
I don't understand. If he was indeed caught in Roland Garros and if a judgement is really going to take place, then why did not the ITF neither the ATP contact him on the occasion, as it is the normal procedure? :confused:
I have been wondering the same thing since the news broke.

Xytraguptorh
12-03-2005, 11:28 AM
Forget about the doping

They should just ban him because he sucks

lau
12-03-2005, 11:31 AM
Forget about the doping

They should just ban him because he sucks
They should just ban you because you suck :) (and in only 13 posts!!! :eek: )

Hola Mr. SK
12-03-2005, 11:37 AM
They should just ban you because you suck :) (and in only 13 posts!!! :eek: )
:haha:

sigmagirl91
12-03-2005, 11:43 AM
Forget about the doping

They should just ban him because he sucks


Oh gawd.....just go away.

*Ljubica*
12-03-2005, 12:06 PM
Forget about the doping

They should just ban him because he sucks

It's troll time again :devil: Xytraguptorh- I foresee a great future for you here on GM ;)

sigmagirl91
12-03-2005, 12:11 PM
It's troll time again :devil: Xytraguptorh- I foresee a great future for you here on GM ;)

The name sounds like it came from the Go-Bots.

star
12-03-2005, 01:00 PM
They should just ban you because you suck :) (and in only 13 posts!!! :eek: )

This is obviously a regular poster who is just having some fun under a new name.

lau
12-03-2005, 01:11 PM
This is obviously a regular poster who is just having some fun under a new name.
Probably :)

sigmagirl91
12-03-2005, 02:37 PM
This is obviously a regular poster who is just having some fun under a new name.

Yeah...and you believe it?

alfonsojose
12-03-2005, 03:14 PM
Forget about the doping

They should just ban him because he sucks
Enjoy my bad-rep :kiss: Your name sounds like a laxant or a vaginal gel :p

RochusFan
12-03-2005, 03:15 PM
If it is, it's all his own fault.

It's disgraceul how many ATP players are caught doping :rolleyes:

I find it disappointing too has Puerta has a nice game to watch and isn't a boring counter-puncher like some of the South Americans.

alfonsojose
12-03-2005, 03:17 PM
If it is, it's all his own fault.

It's disgraceul how many ATP players are caught doping :rolleyes:

I find it disappointing too has Puerta has a nice game to watch and isn't a boring counter-puncher like some of the South Americans.
Welcome. Enjoy my bad-rep too :kiss:

Grinder
12-03-2005, 03:21 PM
Why the bad rep for RochusFan?

Oh wait, you're the same person that badrepped me for asking when Martin Verkerk will return.

Denaon
12-03-2005, 04:03 PM
Enjoy my bad-rep :kiss: Your name sounds like a laxant or a vaginal gel :p
lmao :haha:

sigmagirl91
12-03-2005, 08:20 PM
Enjoy my bad-rep :kiss: Your name sounds like a laxant or a vaginal gel :p

:haha: :haha:

star
12-03-2005, 09:15 PM
Yeah...and you believe it?

Believe what?

If you are asking if I believe the poster is a regular posting under another name trying to stir up something for his/her own enjoyment, yes I believe that is more than probable.

After all, we've had a poster here with multiple names carrying on conversations between his muhtiple identities.

The appearance of this poster seems fortuitous. :)

Bilbo
12-03-2005, 09:18 PM
If it's true, cya Mariano. I used to like him.

sigmagirl91
12-03-2005, 09:23 PM
Believe what?

If you are asking if I believe the poster is a regular posting under another name trying to stir up something for his/her own enjoyment, yes I believe that is more than probable.

After all, we've had a poster here with multiple names carrying on conversations between his muhtiple identities.

The appearance of this poster seems fortuitous. :)

Of course it does. I also believe this poster is a member of the Go-Bots, but that's to be debated.

musefanatic
12-03-2005, 10:50 PM
I feel really sorry for him, i hope it isn't the end cos he only came into form at the french open.

DrJules
12-03-2005, 11:03 PM
Continuation of the MTF witch-hunt :help:
will it end.

Jorbaty
12-03-2005, 11:51 PM
His trial will take place this week in London.

Hope he can get a low sentence.

lau
12-03-2005, 11:52 PM
Wasnīt it suposed to take place in Miami or NY?? :confused:

shotgun
12-03-2005, 11:57 PM
Which day is the trial taking place? Because he's playing an exhibition tourney in Rio next week.

lau
12-04-2005, 12:03 AM
The rumour (acording to Clarin the info comes from 2 "reliable sources") the trial (or first hearing were he can personally present his defense and/or "talk" to "judges") will take place in Miami or NY on Tuesday, if I`m not wrong.
But nothing was confirmed by the ATP, ITF or Puerta himself..., no official information, as far as I know.

Daniela_CABJ
12-04-2005, 12:31 AM
The rumour (acording to Clarin the info comes from 2 "reliable sources") the trial (or first hearing were he can personally present his defense and/or "talk" to "judges") will take place in Miami or NY on Tuesday, if I`m not wrong.
But nothing was confirmed by the ATP, ITF or Puerta himself..., no official information, as far as I know.

I know the same that you Lau
I read it on Clarin and on Tycsports
both sites in spanish:
www.clarin.com
www.tycsports.com

Federerthebest
12-04-2005, 12:32 AM
Forget about the doping

They should just ban him because he sucks

I like you

lau
12-04-2005, 12:35 AM
I like you
Why am I not surprised? :shrug:

NicoFan
12-04-2005, 12:43 PM
The rumour (acording to Clarin the info comes from 2 "reliable sources") the trial (or first hearing were he can personally present his defense and/or "talk" to "judges") will take place in Miami or NY on Tuesday, if I`m not wrong.
But nothing was confirmed by the ATP, ITF or Puerta himself..., no official information, as far as I know.

If its here in NY, I'll go and protest with a huge sign that says "We Support Mariano - The ATP Sucks!"... :lol:

BTW lau - who is that man in your avatar??? :)

lau
12-04-2005, 01:54 PM
BTW lau - who is that man in your avatar??? :)
http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=2769401&postcount=35076 ;)

NicoFan
12-04-2005, 02:20 PM
http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=2769401&postcount=35076 ;)

Gracias lau! I know that I'm way :topic: here but really ... wow!!! I wish I got Brazilian telenovellas here. :p

My favorite telenovella star is from your country - Sebastian Rulli. He's in the Mexican telenovellas that we get here in the US. Every week night at 8:00 I'm glued to the TV watching him. ;) :lol:

lau
12-04-2005, 02:29 PM
:lol: I have no idea who Sebastian Rulli is :lol:
I donīt really like telenovelas (anyway, brazilians are the best, imho, BIG productions) , but Reynaldo is something special :drool:

NicoFan
12-04-2005, 02:45 PM
:lol: I have no idea who Sebastian Rulli is :lol:
I donīt really like telenovelas (anyway, brazilians are the best, imho, BIG productions) , but Reynaldo is something special :drool:

I just checked out a photo gallery of Reynaldo..."special" is a huge understatement... :lol:

Again...gracias! :)

+alonso
12-04-2005, 04:00 PM
I'm so tired of reading ppl bashing Mariano :sad:
They don't even care about it, just bashing.. :rolleyes:

i mean the only thing they want to do is pissing fans off. :rolleyes: shame on them.

sooooo, VAMOS MARIANO cierrales la boca a estos ignorantes! de una vez por todas.

*Ljubica*
12-04-2005, 04:09 PM
I'm so tired of reading ppl bashing Mariano :sad:
They don't even care about it, just bashing.. :rolleyes:

i mean the only thing they want to do is pissing fans off. :rolleyes: shame on them.

sooooo, VAMOS MARIANO cierrales la boca a estos ignorantes! de una vez por todas.

Thanks :hug:

nikkita
12-04-2005, 04:14 PM
http://www.menstennisforums.com/showpost.php?p=2769401&postcount=35076 ;)
Sorry for being out of topic here, but it is a pitty that I'm living in France now and I am not able to see that "telenovela"... the guy seems to be so hot!!!!!!!!
Buen gusto Lau!!!

Daniela_CABJ
12-04-2005, 07:46 PM
I'm so tired of reading ppl bashing Mariano :sad:
They don't even care about it, just bashing.. :rolleyes:

i mean the only thing they want to do is pissing fans off. :rolleyes: shame on them.

sooooo, VAMOS MARIANO cierrales la boca a estos ignorantes! de una vez por todas.
:worship:

Xytraguptorh
12-04-2005, 09:06 PM
I'm so tired of reading ppl bashing Mariano :sad:
They don't even care about it, just bashing.. :rolleyes:


Maybe he should try winning a match once in a while?

Daniela_CABJ
12-05-2005, 02:23 AM
Maybe he should try winning a match once in a while?

sure! Probably if he could win any match he could get into the top 20 or something... oh wait... he's already there! but I think I get your point maybe he should reach a big final or... oh... he's been there too... or maybe... I know... maybe you should just shut up
;)

----
BTW, talking about important things, I saw on TV that Mariano is in London and the "meeting" is going to be there this week.
I hope to hear good news :) VAMOS MARIANO!!! :yeah:

Xytraguptorh
12-05-2005, 03:53 AM
Please, aside from Montreal (where Horna choked against him in the first round) the guy barely made a dent on a non-clay surface this year. Even on clay he regularly lost to people outside the top 100. I'll give him credit for making a great run at Roland Garros, ala Verkerk in 2003, but everyone knows he's monodimensional, and he had almost nothing but points to pick up in that ton of tournaments he played. The French is always the Slam where some hack makes an anomalous run. He's 27 already and will disappear in 2006 (he practically disappeared after Roland Garros).

YoursTruly
12-05-2005, 03:56 AM
It doesn't matter, Puerta is a nice guy and his tennis and style are cool, not groundbreaking but there's something great about his style and drive on court.

mongo
12-05-2005, 03:39 PM
It doesn't matter, Puerta is a nice guy and his tennis and style are cool, not groundbreaking but there's something great about his style and drive on court.
Agreed.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5d903b3127cce934c016fc6bb00000016108Acsmrlw1cNX

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5d903b3127cce934c16b286f500000016108Acsmrlw1cNX

virm_coria
12-05-2005, 03:51 PM
i think we will not really miss him. nobody missed him the first time when he 'forgot' to give an explanation for his little pill against his headache (or something)

Maybe YOU areot going to miss him. I WILL! :(

shotgun
12-05-2005, 04:02 PM
Sorry for being out of topic here, but it is a pitty that I'm living in France now and I am not able to see that "telenovela"... the guy seems to be so hot!!!!!!!!
Buen gusto Lau!!!

You girls may have good taste, but Gianecchini has surely got a bad taste. You should see the woman he is dating for a long time now. :p

*Ljubica*
12-05-2005, 04:06 PM
Maybe YOU areot going to miss him. I WILL! :(

So will I :sad:

alfonsojose
12-05-2005, 04:12 PM
I'll miss those legs and those infamous pubes :drool:

jacobhiggins
12-05-2005, 04:14 PM
I won't miss him, if he's found guilty again, he deserves it. His achievments should be erased from the history books completely, there's nothing worse in sports then a cheat! I think thats a small price to pay when you have cheated people out of glory, money, and recongnition! He would also be one of the worst things to happend to tennis in MANY MANY years.

*Ljubica*
12-05-2005, 04:50 PM
I won't miss him, if he's found guilty again, he deserves it. His achievments should be erased from the history books completely, there's nothing worse in sports then a cheat! I think thats a small price to pay when you have cheated people out of glory, money, and recongnition! He would also be one of the worst things to happend to tennis in MANY MANY years.

From this post I assume you are so damned perfect you have never made a mistake or an error of judgement in your work or your personal life :rolleyes: If you had bothered to read the case history before leaping onto the "cheater" bandwagon, you would know that Mariano's first ban was for failing to fill in the correct forms for an asthma medication he was legitimately taking for a medical condition. Admittedly, this error may have been niaive or stupid behaviour by either Mariano or his advisers - but it doesn't make him evil or a cheater. Very few things in this life are black or white you know - most are varying shades of grey, and to condemn someone out of hand and call them "the worst thing that has happened to tennis", when you haven't even bothered to read the facts of their case first is extremely blinkered and foolish. What is it the Bible says - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" :rolleyes:

mongo
12-05-2005, 04:59 PM
From this post I assume you are so damned perfect you have never made a mistake or an error of judgement in your work or your personal life :rolleyes: If you had bothered to read the case history before leaping onto the "cheater" bandwagon, you would know that Mariano's first ban was for failing to fill in the correct forms for an asthma medication he was legitimately taking for a medical condition. Admittedly, this error may have been niaive or stupid behaviour by either Mariano or his advisers - but it doesn't make him evil or a cheater. Very few things in this life are black or white you know - most are varying shades of grey, and to condemn someone out of hand and call them "the worst thing that has happened to tennis", when you haven't even bothered to read the facts of their case first is extremely blinkered and foolish. :rolleyes:Well said, Rosie. For reasons beyond my comprehension, ignorance is empowering.

One must also consider the source, the French rag L'Equipe, which recently claimed Lance Armstrong was doping prior to his first TdF win. Their job is to sell papers. I'm certain smearing Armstrong and Puerta did just that.

NicoFan
12-05-2005, 05:16 PM
From this post I assume you are so damned perfect you have never made a mistake or an error of judgement in your work or your personal life :rolleyes: If you had bothered to read the case history before leaping onto the "cheater" bandwagon, you would know that Mariano's first ban was for failing to fill in the correct forms for an asthma medication he was legitimately taking for a medical condition. Admittedly, this error may have been niaive or stupid behaviour by either Mariano or his advisers - but it doesn't make him evil or a cheater. Very few things in this life are black or white you know - most are varying shades of grey, and to condemn someone out of hand and call them "the worst thing that has happened to tennis", when you haven't even bothered to read the facts of their case first is extremely blinkered and foolish. What is it the Bible says - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" :rolleyes:

Perfectly said... :worship:

I'm so worried for Mariano this week. I will feel devastated if he gets suspended or banned. I have so much admiration for the way he came back before - how he was willing to play anywhere and work 7 days a week to come back. :sad:

Daniela_CABJ
12-05-2005, 05:18 PM
From this post I assume you are so damned perfect you have never made a mistake or an error of judgement in your work or your personal life :rolleyes: If you had bothered to read the case history before leaping onto the "cheater" bandwagon, you would know that Mariano's first ban was for failing to fill in the correct forms for an asthma medication he was legitimately taking for a medical condition. Admittedly, this error may have been niaive or stupid behaviour by either Mariano or his advisers - but it doesn't make him evil or a cheater. Very few things in this life are black or white you know - most are varying shades of grey, and to condemn someone out of hand and call them "the worst thing that has happened to tennis", when you haven't even bothered to read the facts of their case first is extremely blinkered and foolish. What is it the Bible says - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" :rolleyes:
:worship: well said!
but there's too many people speaking without knowing

Denaon
12-05-2005, 05:22 PM
Nicofan, there's nothing left for us to do than to wait. Tomorrow Mariano is supposedly attending this "meeting" with the ITF. And nothing else has been said. :shrug: :hug:

NicoFan
12-05-2005, 05:27 PM
Nicofan, there's nothing left for us to do than to wait. Tomorrow Mariano is supposedly attending this "meeting" with the ITF. And nothing else has been said. :shrug: :hug:

So much secrecy - which is one of the reasons why I think all these doping cases are bullshit.

sigmagirl91
12-05-2005, 05:27 PM
From this post I assume you are so damned perfect you have never made a mistake or an error of judgement in your work or your personal life :rolleyes: If you had bothered to read the case history before leaping onto the "cheater" bandwagon, you would know that Mariano's first ban was for failing to fill in the correct forms for an asthma medication he was legitimately taking for a medical condition. Admittedly, this error may have been niaive or stupid behaviour by either Mariano or his advisers - but it doesn't make him evil or a cheater. Very few things in this life are black or white you know - most are varying shades of grey, and to condemn someone out of hand and call them "the worst thing that has happened to tennis", when you haven't even bothered to read the facts of their case first is extremely blinkered and foolish. What is it the Bible says - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" :rolleyes:

Let me add my :worship: Couldn't have said it better myself.

Denaon
12-05-2005, 05:35 PM
So much secrecy - which is one of the reasons why I think all these doping cases are bullshit.
I know...:smooch: I feel the same way

jacobhiggins
12-05-2005, 05:44 PM
I know about his first incident and this second one will be ANOTHER time when an illegal substance is found in his system. No, i'm not perfect I never said I was, but when someone has ILLEGAL substances in there body and plays a sport it is NOT fair and they DO HAVE AN UNFAIR advantage and yes Puerta should be banned if it's found in his system. You don't see these things happend to the very best of players... Federer, Roddick, Hewitt,and why is that, because they don't need to have an unfair advantage! It's not just concidence that he might be charged a second time. They have experts and panels and they WILL NOT bann somebody for no reason. I'm a fan of tennis, not of tennis players. Tennis needs more sports fans not more teenage girls and woman with crushes!

NicoFan
12-05-2005, 05:52 PM
I know about his first incident and this second one will be ANOTHER time when an illegal substance is found in his system. No, i'm not perfect I never said I was, but when someone has ILLEGAL substances in there body and plays a sport it is NOT fair and they DO HAVE AN UNFAIR advantage and yes Puerta should be banned if it's found in his system. You don't see these things happend to the very best of players... Federer, Roddick, Hewitt,and why is that, because they don't need to have an unfair advantage! It's not just concidence that he might be charged a second time. They have experts and panels and they WILL NOT bann somebody for no reason. I'm a fan of tennis, not of tennis players. Tennis needs more sports fans not more teenage girls and woman with crushes!

When you debate like this, you're not worth the time to answer to. You obviously don't know the facts behind the case so all you can resort to are silly accusations.

When you know the facts of the case...come back.

*Ljubica*
12-05-2005, 05:55 PM
I know about his first incident and this second one will be ANOTHER time when an illegal substance is found in his system. No, i'm not perfect I never said I was, but when someone has ILLEGAL substances in there body and plays a sport it is NOT fair and they DO HAVE AN UNFAIR advantage and yes Puerta should be banned if it's found in his system. You don't see these things happend to the very best of players... Federer, Roddick, Hewitt,and why is that, because they don't need to have an unfair advantage! It's not just concidence that he might be charged a second time. They have experts and panels and they WILL NOT bann somebody for no reason. I'm a fan of tennis, not of tennis players. Tennis needs more sports fans not more teenage girls and woman with crushes!

One thing - I am NOT a teenage girl (way too old for that sadly!) - I first went to Wimbledon almost 30 years ago which is possibly before you were born....... and neither do I have a crush on Mariano - to stereotype all female tennis fans like that is a litte too much simplification don't you think :rolleyes: As for the "best" tennis players as you call them - there are plentry of threads and much speculation that some of these ARE on banned substances - just too clever/too wealthy/too important for the sport, to let the scandal come out ;) And - no - by making this comment I am not saying whether I personally believe these rumours or not - just making an observation. Anyway - as NicoFan says - there is very little point in arguing with someone so set in their ways and not even cogniscent of the facts. I have things to do :wavey:

sigmagirl91
12-05-2005, 06:04 PM
I know about his first incident and this second one will be ANOTHER time when an illegal substance is found in his system. No, i'm not perfect I never said I was, but when someone has ILLEGAL substances in there body and plays a sport it is NOT fair and they DO HAVE AN UNFAIR advantage and yes Puerta should be banned if it's found in his system. You don't see these things happend to the very best of players... Federer, Roddick, Hewitt,and why is that, because they don't need to have an unfair advantage! It's not just concidence that he might be charged a second time. They have experts and panels and they WILL NOT bann somebody for no reason. I'm a fan of tennis, not of tennis players. Tennis needs more sports fans not more teenage girls and woman with crushes!

I have a major problem with your post, and I hope you can follow me here. While you're so adamant that Puerta's guilty without a shred of evidence (the kangaroo court that is L'Equipe doesn't count here), I hope you are never in a position to have your livelihood taken away from you. I'm sure you'll beg for the same mercy that you refuse to extend to someone else.

jacobhiggins
12-05-2005, 06:15 PM
Not many people think Federer, Roddick, and Hewitt are on drugs, you might think that Rosie, but the majority of people do not! I said IF HE IS FOUND GUILTY! I never said he was guilty! If he is not guilty, then he can move on with his life and career but if he is guilty, don't let the door hit him in the behind, that's all im saying! If he is guilty, people should accept the fact that he should not be allowed to play and it's already sounding like people here don't agree with that and actually don't think cheating is a big deal!

sigmagirl91
12-05-2005, 06:22 PM
Not many people think Federer, Roddick, and Hewitt are on drugs, you might think that Rosie, but the majority of people do not! I said IF HE IS FOUND GUILTY! I never said he was guilty! If he is not guilty, then he can move on with his life and career but if he is guilty, don't let the door hit him in the behind, that's all im saying! If he is guilty, people should accept the fact that he should not be allowed to play and it's already sounding like people here don't agree with that and actually don't think cheating is a big deal!

Ok...another problem. You're passing judgment.

jacobhiggins
12-05-2005, 06:27 PM
I'm not passing judement and calling him a disgrace, we must wait until the facts come, and saying if he is guilty then he is a disgrace is not passing judgment, it's a fact. You think cheaters are worthy sportsman Sigmagirl91? Aren't you a fan of tennis, geez!

mongo
12-05-2005, 06:32 PM
Tennis needs more sports fans not more teenage girls and woman with crushes!
I'm a big f'ing dude, halfwit.

I rate players on their style, not their rankings. I admire Puerta's agressive style on clay. The guy jumps out of his shoes when he crushes a forehand. And other than Safin, I'd much rather see a 1 handed bh anyday.

Having said that, I can't stand the way Nadal plays. When I watch him, I can't help but think he's just an injury waiting to happen.

Denaon
12-05-2005, 06:32 PM
What a bunch of hypocrites those who claim, in the name of justice and fairness, Mariano's head and career, with no other reason than speculations....:rolleyes:

Nothing will change it, even if Mariano is found guilty, they'll remain hypocrites. They cannot sustain their own speech.

DrJules
12-05-2005, 06:39 PM
I know about his first incident and this second one will be ANOTHER time when an illegal substance is found in his system. No, i'm not perfect I never said I was, but when someone has ILLEGAL substances in there body and plays a sport it is NOT fair and they DO HAVE AN UNFAIR advantage and yes Puerta should be banned if it's found in his system. You don't see these things happend to the very best of players... Federer, Roddick, Hewitt,and why is that, because they don't need to have an unfair advantage! It's not just concidence that he might be charged a second time. They have experts and panels and they WILL NOT bann somebody for no reason. I'm a fan of tennis, not of tennis players. Tennis needs more sports fans not more teenage girls and woman with crushes!

People like you make me think trial by jury is a bad idea. I am not sure thatyou have fully considered the evidence and examined the facts. Please check on them and then come back to discuss. Thank you.

sigmagirl91
12-05-2005, 06:53 PM
You think cheaters are worthy sportsman Sigmagirl91? Aren't you a fan of tennis, geez!

Jacob, I would if Puerta were using illegal substances to gain an advantage.
Just because someone gets caught, it doesn't mean that the person cheated. In the first case, Puerta did not file the proper forms (happens to the best of us), and in the second, nothing has been proven yet. Until then, Jacob, we have nothing to discuss.

*Ljubica*
12-05-2005, 07:04 PM
Not many people think Federer, Roddick, and Hewitt are on drugs, you might think that Rosie, but the majority of people do not! I said IF HE IS FOUND GUILTY! I never said he was guilty! If he is not guilty, then he can move on with his life and career but if he is guilty, don't let the door hit him in the behind, that's all im saying! If he is guilty, people should accept the fact that he should not be allowed to play and it's already sounding like people here don't agree with that and actually don't think cheating is a big deal!

Please READ and understand properly before you post. - I never EVER said in my post that I believed Federer, Roddick and Hewitt are on drugs - I said there had been speculation about "top players" (no names mentioned by myself) but that I was not commenting on those speculations. The very fact that you have read about 3 words of my post and then rushed in headlong to condemn me and accuse me of something I have not said- is exactly our point over your views on Puerta's case - you do not know him, your do not know in-depth about his case, and on the basis of a few things you have read you've jumped on the "doper cheat" bandwagon without having the first clue what you're talking about. As DrJules said - it is people like you that make tral by jury seen like a bad idea :rolleyes:

Daniela_CABJ
12-05-2005, 07:09 PM
I know about his first incident and this second one will be ANOTHER time when an illegal substance is found in his system. No, i'm not perfect I never said I was, but when someone has ILLEGAL substances in there body and plays a sport it is NOT fair and they DO HAVE AN UNFAIR advantage and yes Puerta should be banned if it's found in his system. You don't see these things happend to the very best of players... Federer, Roddick, Hewitt,and why is that, because they don't need to have an unfair advantage! It's not just concidence that he might be charged a second time. They have experts and panels and they WILL NOT bann somebody for no reason. I'm a fan of tennis, not of tennis players. Tennis needs more sports fans not more teenage girls and woman with crushes!

oh... I'm a just girl with a crush... that's probably the reason I wake up at 4 or 5 am in the morning just to watch a match, or I pay a lot of money to go to see tennis live, probably that's the same reason I went to see Davis Cup on march and melt because of the weather, and that's probably the same reason I went to see Fed Cup a couple of years ago even if it was freezing!
Don't talk about something you don't know and don't come to me with the "clean top ten players" thing... or how fair the system is!
maybe you should try to read about something before talking... and when you do... then think about it... if you can :rolleyes:

mongo
12-05-2005, 07:17 PM
Not many people think Federer, Roddick, and Hewitt are on drugs...Oh, if that's our standard--what people think--let me tell you what a lot of people think: Agassi has been doping for years and the ATP has been covering his ass to save face.

Space Cowgirl
12-05-2005, 07:21 PM
Just because someone gets caught, it doesn't mean that the person cheated. In the first case, Puerta did not file the proper forms (happens to the best of us)
oh puhlease! :rolleyes:
The doping rules are pretty clear - check and double-check what meds you are taking, or face the consequences. Don't have to be a brain surgeon to understand that, surely? And when you can potentially have your livelihood taken away from you because of neglecting to use your brain, then tough crap, do tennis players not have enough people in their entourages to do their thinking for them?
NOTE: I'm not judging Puerta in advance, just stating the obvious.

Dopers who get caught can't in fairness think they can get away with the equivalent of the old "dog ate my homework" school excuse. It's cheating, end of story.

jacobhiggins
12-05-2005, 07:22 PM
He was caught testing positive for clenbuterol, a long-banned drug with anabolic properties that can build muscles and trim fat. An investigative panel determined that a doctor prescribed the drug to Puerta to treat an acute asthma attack. It's not used in the United States or Europe anymore for asthma, but it's still used in Latin America.The athletes know it's strictly prohibited. They have a card with that and all other banned drugs listed. It comes down to strict liability. The athlete bears the responsibility for anything he puts in his body. He had to forfeit some prize money and points.

It would NOT HAVE MATTERED IF HE HAD TOLD the ATP what he had taken, it was not a missunderstanding, if he had told them he had taken that for his asthma then he SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ALLOWED to play. But guess what, he did play with the drug in his system. And the drug does help you, that is why it is banned! Who cares if the doctor prescribed it for him, he could have known it had the drug in it! The facts are he had a steriod in his system that helped him perform better, it dosen't matter HOW it got there, it was there and he most likely new about it.

This is an old excuse that has been used ALOT in American Football by players. Oh I didn't know that was there, Oh I didn't know that had that in it, I didn't know this I didn't know that. Ignorance is bliss, and it is used by people to cheat! No one says there guilty when there caught! There's ALWAYS an excuse, no matter how convincing or ridiculous the excuse sounds!

Daniela_CABJ
12-05-2005, 07:30 PM
mongo :yeah: everyone knows about that... but you know people see what they wanna see. :D

Space Cowgirl I said this before and I'll say it again... if rules about doping are so clear... tell me why, in the same year 2 players tested positive on the same substance and one was suspended for 2 years and the other one for 2 months.

jacobhiggins NFL... American Football? probably the worst example about doping!

Space Cowgirl
12-05-2005, 07:35 PM
[Space Cowgirl I said this before and I'll say it again... if rules about doping are so clear... tell me why, in the same year 2 players tested positive on the same substance and one was suspended for 2 years and the other one for 2 months.
Who were the players?
Canas got what he deserved, sorry
WADA now oversees the ATP doping tests, so hopefully there will be uniform punishments for dopers, like there are in athletics

sigmagirl91
12-05-2005, 07:36 PM
Who were the players?
Canas got what he deserved, sorry
WADA now oversees the ATP doping tests, so hopefully there will be uniform punishments for dopers, like there are in athletics

Let me know when that happens, 'k?

lau
12-05-2005, 07:40 PM
Tennis needs more sports fans not more teenage girls and woman with crushes!
A predict you`ll have success in your career as ATP CEO... :yeah: :)

mongo
12-05-2005, 08:48 PM
It would NOT HAVE MATTERED IF HE HAD TOLD the ATP what he had taken, it was not a missunderstanding, if he had told them he had taken that for his asthma then he SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ALLOWED to play.No surprise, but you are talking out of your ass.

Procedures When Applying for Exemptions

3. An exemption will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis using the following procedures and criteria:

a. Class I (here, Clenbuterol): A Class I Prohibited Substance may not be used (now pay attention...) unless approved by two medical members of the Review Board...the Review Board will consider the medical validity of the treatment...and...may provide an exemption in exceptional circumstances.

Not at all what you claim.

Moreover...
Penalties

1. Class I Prohibited Substances (here, Clenbuterol)
a. First Doping Offense
A player...shall be suspended from participation in any and all ATP sanctioned or recognized tournaments for a two (2) year period.

As I recall, Puerta's suspension was more like 9 months.

E. 4.c. ...The Anti-Doping Tribunal may reduce the penalties as set out...only if the player establishes by a preponderance of the evidence that Exceptional Circumstances exist.

jacobhiggins
12-05-2005, 09:02 PM
I'm sorry I should have worded it better, if he had told them then he would not have played, but he did play tennis while under the use of the banned drug! They would have not let him play, he would not have had an exemption! There's no way of knowing what he said about his astuma was true, atheltes can get doctors to say and provide anything. I'm not saying that this was the case, just saying a doctors word is not 100 percent proof and that is why he still would have not got and exemption! The players know what is and not banned, it dosen't stop people from taking illegal drugs. There's masking agents and other ways to hide a drug that you have taken and in some cases the masking agent or whatever method you used to hide the drug does not work and you get a situation very much like Puerta's 2 years ago :rolleyes:

mongo
12-05-2005, 09:17 PM
There's masking agents and other ways to hide a drug that you have taken and in some cases the masking agent or whatever method you used to hide the drug does not work and you get a situation very much like Puerta's 2 years ago.Or, more likely in Puerta's case, he was able to establishes by a preponderance of the evidence that Exceptional Circumstances exist (sic). Hence, the 9 month suspension instead of the mandated 2 years.

jacobhiggins
12-05-2005, 09:19 PM
I don't know about that Mongo, that could have been the case or not, we don't know for sure! All we know is he screwed up and intentional or not he was caught and played with a banned substance! Intentional or not he not only cheated himself but might have cheated other people as well. Plus the fact that all the other Argentines faced similar drug problems, you have to question the valaditiy of any excuse coming from any one of those players! There's not a witch hunt out there against the Argentine's, there's a serious problem with Argentine's tennis program. Is it all concidence and mistakes, come on :rolleyes:

Daniela_CABJ
12-05-2005, 10:40 PM
Who were the players?
Canas got what he deserved, sorry
WADA now oversees the ATP doping tests, so hopefully there will be uniform punishments for dopers, like there are in athletics

I don't remember his name now, but He's a doubles player from US

Daniela_CABJ
12-05-2005, 10:49 PM
I don't know about that Mongo, that could have been the case or not, we don't know for sure! All we know is he screwed up and intentional or not he was caught and played with a banned substance! Intentional or not he not only cheated himself but might have cheated other people as well. Plus the fact that all the other Argentines faced similar drug problems, you have to question the valaditiy of any excuse coming from any one of those players! There's not a witch hunt out there against the Argentine's, there's a serious problem with Argentine's tennis program. Is it all concidence and mistakes, come on :rolleyes:
I'm not saying there's a hunt, even Caņas said "I know this is not a hunt against us" but don't say the only problem is with Argentina. Because the whole world knows about Agassi doping case (more than once)... and nothing happened...
and let's not forget Mariano's case was informed by a newspaper and it isn't correct...

buddyholly
12-05-2005, 11:27 PM
what on earth for??? For being sick and having to take medication? Better kick out half the ATP guys then :rolleyes:

Puerta = Door.
Just a joke!!!!!!!!Easy on the rolleyes, please.

mecir72
12-05-2005, 11:36 PM
I remember watching the canas puerta match from the french and thinking, these guys must be on something. Especially canas, cause he doesnt even hit the ball that hard at times, he could just get to every ball for ever and ever. So I wasnt surprised when I heard. Now these guys are not the only ones who can do that so there are probably others aswell.

zethand
12-05-2005, 11:48 PM
I remember watching the canas puerta match from the french and thinking, these guys must be on something. Especially canas, cause he doesnt even hit the ball that hard at times, he could just get to every ball for ever and ever. So I wasnt surprised when I heard. Now these guys are not the only ones who can do that so there are probably others aswell.

I was thinking the same.. Puerta was very suspicious at RG... The justice wont come.. the players that lost against them dont win anything... not even an apology

Denaon
12-06-2005, 12:30 AM
I remember watching the canas puerta match from the french and thinking, these guys must be on something. Especially canas, cause he doesnt even hit the ball that hard at times, he could just get to every ball for ever and ever. So I wasnt surprised when I heard. Now these guys are not the only ones who can do that so there are probably others aswell.
I'm sure if Federer or Nadal got caught eventually with a positive which might be your next thought. ":scratch: I knew there was something wrong about him, noone could ever have such a winning record" ...:rolleyes: gimme a break.

TenHound
12-06-2005, 01:00 AM
Could someone pls. clarify the new testing Overlord. I read it was ITF. Where does this talk of WADA come from? Is ITF sub-contracting? If that's the case AA'll have to retire.

Puerta is the only male player I've ever seen who I think should be banned for life. I watched him @RG & had no doubt that he's done substantial amounts of steroids for a long time, and they've contributed heavily to his tennis. He had a body builders neck & thighs, and his talent was otherwise mediocre.

And I'm not categorically anti-drugs. I wish there was some way, that a player who had everything but size could petition for a special exemption. Yes, I know it's insane, couldn't be fairly implemented, shouldn't be, etc., etc....but it's what I think of when I see Coria, Ollie & Henin. Dream on...but the point being, that Puerta is the flip side of the coin of these players.

amierin
12-06-2005, 01:10 AM
Surprised no one has posted this item which is on wtaworld.com. If it has been posted just ignore this post.

Pound warns of more positive tests

The chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), Dick Pound, believes there will be more positive tests amongst players now that the International Tennis Federation (ITF), tennis' governing body, has taken over the anti-doping programme from the Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP).



DAVIS CUP: Honours even in Bratislava

"The ATP had an imperfect and botched process. Perhaps now that there is a rigorous testing process in place, the penny will drop among the players," Pound said on Friday.

The warning came as Karol Beck of the Slovak Republic, who is believed to have tested positive for a banned substance during the Davis Cup semi-final against Argentina, pulled out of his opening singles rubber against Croatia's Ivan Ljubicic and Saturday's doubles rubber in the Davis Cup final in Bratislava, with a knee injury.

Beck, the world number 57, denied the allegation that has been circulating for two weeks on Wednesday. But the 23-year-old was selected by the Slovak captain, Miloslav Mecir, despite not having played a match since the St Petersburg Open in October.

The Slovak Tennis Federation knows that were one of its players to have a positive doping test confirmed after the weekend, any wins by that player could be rescinded.

The 2005 season has already witnessed Argentina's Guillermo Canas banned for two years in August after taking a banned diuretic, and three others: Mariano Puerta and Mariano Hood, and an unnamed women's player - testing positive at the French Open - are yet to face a tribunal.
(The bold is from the article itself as posted on wtaworld. It didn't come through with the cut and paste so I added it here.)


http://www.eurosport.co.uk/home/pages/v4/l2/s57/e6649/sport_lng2_spo57_evt6649_sto797645.shtml

Okay, who was the woman and why is this just coming out now??? And doesn't this kind of confirm that Puerta is involved?

Deboogle!.
12-06-2005, 02:44 AM
What's disgusting is that the test was allegedly around early June and it is now early December and nothing official has been said. That's 6 months and FAR FAR too long, in my opinion.

jacobhiggins
12-06-2005, 03:12 AM
I noticed the same exact thing with those Argentines, I was like.....what the hell happend to these guys and sure enough, BLAMO, doping charge.

*Ljubica*
12-06-2005, 05:22 AM
Could someone pls. clarify the new testing Overlord. I read it was ITF. Where does this talk of WADA come from? Is ITF sub-contracting? If that's the case AA'll have to retire.

Puerta is the only male player I've ever seen who I think should be banned for life. I watched him @RG & had no doubt that he's done substantial amounts of steroids for a long time, and they've contributed heavily to his tennis. He had a body builders neck & thighs, and his talent was otherwise mediocre.

And I'm not categorically anti-drugs. I wish there was some way, that a player who had everything but size could petition for a special exemption. Yes, I know it's insane, couldn't be fairly implemented, shouldn't be, etc., etc....but it's what I think of when I see Coria, Ollie & Henin. Dream on...but the point being, that Puerta is the flip side of the coin of these players.

Please.....if you had seen Puerta's Father or some of the other male members of his family, you would see that they are similarly built - some people are just bigger built - just a genetic thing - not necessarily steroids - what total bulls*** :rolleyes:

mecir72
12-06-2005, 07:43 AM
I'm sure if Federer or Nadal got caught eventually with a positive which might be your next thought. ":scratch: I knew there was something wrong about him, noone could ever have such a winning record" ...:rolleyes: gimme a break.
Well federer's game is different wouldnt you agree? He didnt become world number one because he became physically stronger. He got mentally stronger, the shotmaking he already had. Nadal has been playing the way he has for a long time. Sure he has energy like no other but he has had that since the start.
Of course you never know, Korda tested positive, you wouldnt believe it from looking at him hehe. I think he took the drug to help with an injury but nonetheless.

mongo
12-06-2005, 01:19 PM
Please.....if you had seen Puerta's Father or some of the other male members of his family, you would see that they are similarly built - some people are just bigger built - just a genetic thing - not necessarily steroids - what total bulls*** :rolleyes:
(This isn't directed at you, Rosie, just piggybacking on your point.)

Heck, Michael Chang, the "human backboard," not only had unlimited energy and stamina, but he also had tree-trunks for thighs...

What you say? A doper, surely??? :rolleyes:

mecir72
12-06-2005, 02:18 PM
Chang always played like that now didnt he. Besides chang was fast but he did get tired. Usually you cant have both speed and stamina in abundance.

mongo
12-06-2005, 02:36 PM
I'll concede the obvious. As far as I know (and I hope I'm mistaken), all indications suggest that Puerta is indeed to face the doping tribunal. Even I have a difficult time reconciling that based solely on a report from the French rag L'Equipe. :awww:

Denaon
12-06-2005, 02:45 PM
Mongo, obviously it's not based on L'Equipe's article...but there's been no official announcement of him being positive......:confused: isn't that weird?? I mean, after Mr. Pound's declaration, shouldn't the ITF or whoever runs the antidoping program make public Mr. Puerta had tested positive ...and will face a "doping tribunal"??
Why do these meetings take place and nothing official has been said about it??

shotgun
12-06-2005, 02:51 PM
Puerta will learn his fate very soon:

http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/v4/l0/s57/e6649/sport_lng0_spo57_evt6649_sto798947.shtml

Deboogle!.
12-06-2005, 02:56 PM
Well federer's game is different wouldnt you agree? He didnt become world number one because he became physically stronger. He got mentally stronger, the shotmaking he already had. Nadal has been playing the way he has for a long time. Sure he has energy like no other but he has had that since the start.
Of course you never know, Korda tested positive, you wouldnt believe it from looking at him hehe. I think he took the drug to help with an injury but nonetheless.Fed's game is different but he still did get physically stronger, which definitely helped him in his rise to the top. (I'm just saying that, I don't at all think he's doping, so let me make that clear.). as for Nadal, he got MUCH physically stronger over the past couple years (many would suggest that this simply coincides with his age and that he is/was still growing), and I know there are many people (myself not necessarily included), who suspect him because of the rapid muscular growth, and the extended 'injury breaks' he had from the tour. Again, I am just repeating things that I've read other people say. But I don't think it's Rafa's abundant energy that causes some people to suspect, and I will leave it at that.

As far as all the talk about Agassi that never seems to die, ultimately there's no way to know. If people are hiding stuff, then shame on them all, shame on the sport and shame on the tour for allowing people to cover up a big taint in their sport. I sure hope that WADA taking over should alleviate some of those concerns.

What bothers me the most of all regarding Puerta specifically is the time span. 6 months is too long, IMO. It's not fair to the rest of the tour players, to the fans, or to Puerta himself, who should not only be afforded the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty but also the right to be found guilty or innocent in a reasonable amount of time - and in these circumstances, I find 6 months quite unreasonable.

Thanks Shotgun Blues, I'm glad it will finally be over soon.

mongo
12-06-2005, 02:56 PM
Puerta will learn his fate very soon:

http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/v4/l0/s57/e6649/sport_lng0_spo57_evt6649_sto798947.shtml
Thanks Shotgun.

(...fingers crossed, but this doesn't look good for Puerta. I just don't know why he'd be subjected to a tribunal if something wasn't amiss.)

mongo
12-06-2005, 03:13 PM
What bothers me the most of all regarding Puerta specifically is the time span. 6 months is too long, IMO. It's not fair to the rest of the tour players, to the fans, or to Puerta himself, who should not only be afforded the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty but also the right to be found guilty or innocent in a reasonable amount of time - and in these circumstances, I find 6 months quite unreasonable.The 6 months has to do with (1) sending samples to overseas labs to be tested multiple times, and (2) due process, which assumes the player is considered innocent until proven guilty. There's simply a ton of litigation, expert testimony to obtain through time consuming depositions in addition to allowing the accused time to put forth his defense.

Deboogle!.
12-06-2005, 03:22 PM
The 6 months has to do with (1) sending samples to overseas labs to be tested multiple times, and (2) due process, which assumes the player is considered innocent until proven guilty. There's simply a ton of litigation, expert testimony to obtain through time consuming depositions in addition to allowing the accused time to put forth his defense.Yes, I know all about how long litigation takes, thanks.

However, I do not recall any of the other recent doping cases taking this long. Perhaps some of them was due to the fact that the players pre-emptively spoke out, but I was referring to the months of speculation, rumors, tension, etc. The tour and all the players should be appalled at what has happened in this case - the fact that a newspaper broke the story and that's how all these guys had to learn about it and the fact that so many months later, the season is now over and the speculation will just now get an answer. Something about the way this case was handled is disconcerting, but I am not quite sure what. I know that if I were another player on the tour, though, I'd be extremely concerned, and I'd hope that this is an aberration and not any indication that this is how all cases are handled.

Truc
12-06-2005, 03:28 PM
In the first articles published in "L'Équipe" about the case, they said the lab of Châtenay-Malabry was closed in August :rolleyes: and that's why they tested the B-sample in September.
But that explains only a one-month delay on the schedule, I don't know why the whole procedure takes so long though.

NicoFan
12-06-2005, 03:29 PM
The 6 months has to do with (1) sending samples to overseas labs to be tested multiple times, and (2) due process, which assumes the player is considered innocent until proven guilty. There's simply a ton of litigation, expert testimony to obtain through time consuming depositions in addition to allowing the accused time to put forth his defense.

6 months to do tests???? You can find out the results of a drug test in a couple of hours.

Mariano didn't even know he was accused until recently - so the 6 months wasn't used for preparing for his case.

Too much secrecy here - the player himself, the fans, the other players are kept in the dark - and nothing was ever officially announced by the ATP/ITF.

About Andre and Rafa - just speculations and unfair to both of them. I'm not commenting on either.

NicoFan
12-06-2005, 03:32 PM
BTW - did anyone ever hear where Mariano's lynching (the Tribunal) is taking place? The Eurosport article doesn't have it. Or is it another secret?

Deboogle!.
12-06-2005, 03:33 PM
well from everything I've been able to gather, these tribunals are like little trials, so there are perhaps witnesses, defense lawyers that have things to prepare, etc. So it would make sense that it would take time. But as nicofan said, it's the secrecy. It's not like accused murderers get to have all their proceedings done in secret - if they are found not guilty, they have to go back into society with that, and if they are found guilty, who really cares about their identity being released? The fact that this was broken by a leak in a newspaper is just silly, I don't see the need to keep it secret until the verdict is released unless the player himself decides to come forward.

NicoFan
12-06-2005, 03:41 PM
well from everything I've been able to gather, these tribunals are like little trials, so there are perhaps witnesses, defense lawyers that have things to prepare, etc. So it would make sense that it would take time. But as nicofan said, it's the secrecy. It's not like accused murderers get to have all their proceedings done in secret - if they are found not guilty, they have to go back into society with that, and if they are found guilty, who really cares about their identity being released? The fact that this was broken by a leak in a newspaper is just silly, I don't see the need to keep it secret until the verdict is released unless the player himself decides to come forward.

That's true - it would take time for both sides to prepare for the "Tribunal" (sorry having problems with that word - sounds like something that a war criminal or dictator would appear in front of...not a player who accidently took some medicine. ;) ). I should, however, say it gives time for ONE side to prepare - unfortunately, it sounds like an ATP player doesn't even know about it until a paper leaks it... :rolleyes: Which is ludicrous but at least the player has some idea that the ball is about to drop and can hire an attorney.

Denaon
12-06-2005, 03:42 PM
Nicofan, I've read a few minutews ago in "Clarin" newspapaer that this "meeting" or whatever it is, is taken place in London and Mariano has flown to England to attend to it.

NicoFan
12-06-2005, 03:54 PM
Nicofan, I've read a few minutews ago in "Clarin" newspapaer that this "meeting" or whatever it is, is taken place in London and Mariano has flown to England to attend to it.

Thanks Denaon.

Poor Mariano - if this is killing me, I can imagine how he's feeling.

mongo
12-06-2005, 03:54 PM
Mongo, obviously it's not based on L'Equipe's article...but there's been no official announcement of him being positive......:confused: isn't that weird?? I mean, after Mr. Pound's declaration, shouldn't the ITF or whoever runs the antidoping program make public Mr. Puerta had tested positive ...and will face a "doping tribunal"??
Why do these meetings take place and nothing official has been said about it??Actually, the ATP may defer a public announcement until the conclusion of any proceeding brought before the tribunal.

Hmmm... According to (the dubious rag) L'Equipe, he tested positive for etilefrine, a stimulant used for hypotension. Stimulants fall under Class II prohibited substances. However, many stimulants (etilefrine not listed among them) are permitted (1) by inhaler only to prevent and/or treat asthma, and (2) if written notification by a treating physician that the player has asthma is provided to the APA.

Even assuming that etilefrine is not the substance involved, but rather one of the inhaler permitted stimulants, the fact that Puerta hasn't come out and stated that he was compliant and received permission to use an inhaler approved stimulant has me concerned. :awww:

NicoFan
12-06-2005, 04:07 PM
Actually, the ATP may defer a public announcement until the conclusion of any proceeding brought before the tribunal.


Secrecy secrecy secrecy....not good.

Would be nice if they notified the player involved in a timely fashion. :rolleyes:

Denaon
12-06-2005, 04:08 PM
Actually, the ATP may defer a public announcement until the conclusion of any proceeding brought before the tribunal.

Hmmm... According to (the dubious rag) L'Equipe, he tested positive for etilefrine, a stimulant used for hypotension. Stimulants fall under Class II prohibited substances. However, many stimulants (etilefrine not listed among them) are permitted (1) by inhaler only to prevent and/or treat asthma, and (2) if written notification by a treating physician that the player has asthma is provided to the APA.

Even assuming that etilefrine is not the substance involved, but rather one of the inhaler permitted stimulants, the fact that Puerta hasn't come out and stated that he was compliant and received permission to use an inhaler approved stimulant has me concerned. :awww:

Isn't a Tribunal what Mariano's gonna meet in London? From what I've read, this is some sort of tribunal...have articles not mentioned that PUERTA'S FATE is about to come to an end?

Denaon
12-06-2005, 04:12 PM
:scratch: ".................before the tribunal[B]"
1) before in time ?? :lol: (that's what I've interpreted)
2) to a tribunal?? if that's the case, my previous post is meaningless :p

Deboogle!.
12-06-2005, 04:34 PM
Would be nice if they notified the player involved in a timely fashion. :rolleyes:In the interest of fairness, none of us really know when he was notified...

mongo
12-06-2005, 04:37 PM
However, I do not recall any of the other recent doping cases taking this long. Perhaps some of them was due to the fact that the players pre-emptively spoke out, but I was referring to the months of speculation, rumors, tension, etc. The tour and all the players should be appalled at what has happened in this case - the fact that a newspaper broke the story and that's how all these guys had to learn about it and the fact that so many months later, the season is now over and the speculation will just now get an answer. Something about the way this case was handled is disconcerting, but I am not quite sure what. I know that if I were another player on the tour, though, I'd be extremely concerned, and I'd hope that this is an aberration and not any indication that this is how all cases are handled.You do have several good points, and the link provided by Shotgun only further muddies the waters.

Guillermo Canas, who reached the semi-finals in Paris...was banned for two years...having tested positive for a prohibited diuretic during a tournament at Acapulco in February has appealed to the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Switzerland.

Canas' case will be heard, between, 15-20 January 2006.

http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages...sto798947.shtml

However, it was Canas' decision not to play...

The 27-year-old Canas...has decided to pull out of next month's Davis Cup matches against Australia because of the ATP probe, as well as a hand injury.

Canas...pulled out of Wimbledon last week after reaching the semifinals at Halle, Germany, where he lost to Marat Safin.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/tennis/2005-06-22-canas-doping-investigation_x.htm?csp=34

So, though the ATP announced in June (after Halle) that Canas was banned for 2 years for having tested positive back in February, Canas could still be playing.

Finally, when Puerta tested positive in February 2003, he played (the entire season) in all 4 Grand Slam events for the first time in his carrer. His tribunal did not take place until December 2003. His suspension started in November and ended (9 months later) in July 2004.

Other than L'Equipe leaking the story in September (which I agree, is appalling), seems Puerta's case is the norm, rather than the exception.

prima donna
12-06-2005, 04:42 PM
What I find most ironic about this topic is that the word "fair" keeps being mentioned, everyone is entitled to receive a certain level of fairness; even a monster like Saddam Hussein.

Fact of the matter is that he is responsible for thousands of atrocities and well, basically this whole trial is just a formality. The only way that he could possibly get off, is if there is some type of conspiracy and/or people have absolutely no concession at all, thus rendering their common sense useless and forcing them to base their decision on bias'd ideals.

Back to the topic at hand, not that Mariano Puerta is quite on that level, but he did cheat the ATP Tour and not only that, but he deceived his country, opposition and presented himself in such a way that is completely despicable.

I was happy to see a nobody make the Roland Garros Final, now it looks like we all know why he was able to pull off such a magical feat. There were points throughout the match during which Puerta matched Nadal's energy level. So much is coming out, he's entitled to be treated fairly, blah, blah, blah, due process, more formalities ... point and fact of the matter is this guy is most likely guilty.

In my mind, he's guilty until proven innocent --- then again, I have no affiliation with the case. Good thing, I'd roast him. Cheater. Cheater. Cheater.

*Ljubica*
12-06-2005, 04:45 PM
Sadly the timescale is the norm :sad: . Koubek tested positive at Roland Garros in May last year, but didn't face his "trial" til December, and the Rusedski case was about the same amount of time. I agree with Debstah - whether Puerta (or anyone else) is guilty or innocent - the time this whole thing takes is appaling for all concerned. What kind of pressures are they putting on a player (and his famly) when they could well be innocent? I am sad and sick of the while sorry state of affairs.

DrJules
12-06-2005, 04:52 PM
In my mind, he's guilty until proven innocent --- then again, I have no affiliation with the case. Good thing, I'd roast him. Cheater. Cheater. Cheater.

I am glad I live in Britain where you are innocent until proven guilty. Your sense of justice is not comprehensible to me.

mongo
12-06-2005, 04:53 PM
In my mind, he's guilty until proven innocent --- then again, I have no affiliation with the case. Good thing, I'd roast him. Cheater. Cheater. Cheater.Though I'm holding out hope for Puerta, nothing wrong with that statement. Nobody is convicted in the eye of public opinion.

NicoFan
12-06-2005, 04:54 PM
In the interest of fairness, none of us really know when he was notified...


True again...but he seemed shocked the story came out and then went back to Argentina to hire an attorney. So I think that its fair to assume that when the story was leaked that he had not been informed.

NicoFan
12-06-2005, 04:57 PM
In my mind, he's guilty until proven innocent --- then again, I have no affiliation with the case. Good thing, I'd roast him. Cheater. Cheater. Cheater.

You should work for the ATP or ITF. That's the way they think. I hold out no hope for Mariano. He was already tried and convicted long before this Tribunal takes place.

prima donna
12-06-2005, 04:57 PM
I am glad I live in Britain where you are innocent until proven guilty. Your sense of justice is not comprehensible to me.
Last time I checked (and I'm quite familiar with the legal system, being that my family has made a living off of it), we have the same policy here in the U.S

Fact of the matter is, what one person says, does not reflect an entire country. Just because I tend to consider guys that come out of nowhere and drastically improve their rankings, end up making a GS Final and amongst other things, have more energy than the energizer bunny himself as basically all but convicted, so in other words guilty, though not yet charged in this case doesn't mean the U.S is full of assholes like me. Retract that statement, you might offend someone.

*Ljubica*
12-06-2005, 04:58 PM
I am glad I live in Britain where you are innocent until proven guilty. Your sense of justice is not comprehensible to me.

He just wants to be provocative and likes the sound of his own voice :rolleyes: - best ignore him I think ;)

Deboogle!.
12-06-2005, 05:07 PM
True again...but he seemed shocked the story came out and then went back to Argentina to hire an attorney. So I think that its fair to assume that when the story was leaked that he had not been informed.Maybe. But I'm not totally convinced. At first, he spouted off, said things suggesting defamation, etc. Then he almost immediately clammed up. So, something happened there, too. And I doubt the ATP/ITF/whoever are totally to blame for it, because it's almost never a one-way street.

If it's true that he tested positive in June and wasn't notified til, what, September, then that is just atrocious, and as someone who is literally studying the US constitution at this very moment, it goes against every fiber in my being. But, we simply don't know what actually happened.

Denaon
12-06-2005, 05:09 PM
Quoted edited.

I think you're way too wrong to treat anyone like this :mad:
The one that should reconsider his manners it's you. I have finally understood why you've been critized and bashed for. Please remain silent and make our world a better place to live.
Shush prima donna.

Angle Queen
12-06-2005, 05:11 PM
For an older broad, you've got :tape:my edit

WTF!?!!

Your comments in that post are way out of line.

basil333
12-06-2005, 05:11 PM
Quite a few people on this board like the sound of their own voice - yet don't like it when others "take over the throne" - and also the same group of people like dishing out their "advice and opinions" yet need to learn how to take other people's views too.

but then again if everyone thought the same thing life would be soo boring....

Galaxystorm
12-06-2005, 05:11 PM
Just because I tend to consider guys that come out of nowhere and drastically improve their rankings, end up making a GS Final and amongst other things, have more energy than the energizer bunny himself as basically all but convicted, so in other words guilty,

Una delle stronzate piu grosse che abbiamo ascoltato qui :yeah: :rolleyes:

sigmagirl91
12-06-2005, 05:12 PM
Quoted edited.

Watch your mouth, buster!!! :mad:

prima donna
12-06-2005, 05:12 PM
I think you're way too wrong to treat anyone like this :mad:
The one that should reconsider his manners it's you. I have finally understood why you've been critized and bashed for. Please remain silent and make our world a better place to live.
Shush prima donna.
Oh, stop being so sensitive. :topic: --- I decided to chime in on the Puerta subject and Mother Time had a snotty little remark. It's all fixed now. Relax, my friend.

I'm criticized and "bashed", because I don't care what anyone on this board thinks or feels about my outlook. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, only difference is mine doesn't stink.

prima donna
12-06-2005, 05:14 PM
Watch your mouth, buster!!! :mad:
love you snookums!

sigmagirl91
12-06-2005, 05:16 PM
love you snookums!

Just for the record, snookie-ookles, I take offense because I'm in that "old broad" age group that you just referred to, and I HATE being called an "old broad". I guess you know this.

prima donna
12-06-2005, 05:18 PM
Just for the record, snookie-ookles, I take offense because I'm in that "old broad" age group that you just referred to, and I HATE being called an "old broad". I guess you know this.
you are not an old broad. and like. even if you were ... you'd be my favorite "old broad" --- so shush :hug:

sigmagirl91
12-06-2005, 05:19 PM
you are not an old broad. and like. even if you were ... you'd be my favorite "old broad" --- so shush :hug:

:rolleyes:

prima donna
12-06-2005, 05:21 PM
:rolleyes:
aww don't roll your eyes at me pumpkin :smooch: :smooch: :hug: :hug:

sigmagirl91
12-06-2005, 05:22 PM
aww don't roll your eyes at me pumpkin :smooch: :smooch: :hug: :hug:

Awww....you love me....you really love me. :D

prima donna
12-06-2005, 05:24 PM
Una delle stronzate piu grosse che abbiamo ascoltato qui :yeah: :rolleyes:
Mi dispiace che e arrivato a questo, ecredo che e uno delle cose piu brutte, ma la verita e la verita.

E alla fine e slol che rimane far di noi, amico.

NicoFan
12-06-2005, 05:36 PM
Maybe. But I'm not totally convinced. At first, he spouted off, said things suggesting defamation, etc. Then he almost immediately clammed up. So, something happened there, too. And I doubt the ATP/ITF/whoever are totally to blame for it, because it's almost never a one-way street.

If it's true that he tested positive in June and wasn't notified til, what, September, then that is just atrocious, and as someone who is literally studying the US constitution at this very moment, it goes against every fiber in my being. But, we simply don't know what actually happened.

Hard to have a conversation with all this drivel flying around ... ;) ...but I'll try here.

I would stop talking too if I had been him. Or maybe his attorney told him to...a good attorney would.

We don't know what happened. I would rather think that he's innocent until there is substantial proof that says otherwise than pronounce him guilty without any proof (not you but like many here). And that's what the legal system here in the US says - innocent until proven guilty. Which is not always the case - but it obviously it should be.

Plus I know that I'm being naive - but I would rather see the good in people than the bad. I really don't believe that Mariano did this intentionally - maybe he screwed up unintentionally - but we all screw up (sometimes badly) at various times in our lives. We all live in glass houses so we shouldn't throw stones.

Deboogle!.
12-06-2005, 05:39 PM
Hard to have a conversation with all this drivel flying around ... ;) ...but I'll try here.Just ignore them ;)I would stop talking too if I had been him. Or maybe his attorney told him to...a good attorney would. oh, of course. But academically speaking, something seemed odd about the whole thing. A famous US Supreme Court case dealing with obscenity once said "we know it when we see it" - can't quite put your finger on it, but you just know something's off.... that's how I feel about what happened here.Plus I know that I'm being naive - but I would rather see the good in people than the bad. I really don't believe that Mariano did this intentionally - maybe he screwed up unintentionally - but we all screw up (sometimes badly) at various times in our lives. We all live in glass houses so we shouldn't throw stones.well I don't think I'm naive but I like to believe people are good unless I have proof otherwise. But he is in the unfortunate position of being a potential repeat offender, and it makes it harder.

he's lucky that it only deals with his tennis career and not his life and liberty - things that affect millions of people each day. I think it's prudent to keep in mind, that though awful for him and his family, the worst thing that happens to him is that he can't play professional tennis again, and perhaps some damage to his reputation. But he will still get to live a healthy and happy life with his family. :) And I think when the stakes are lower, as they are here, it's easier to preemptively convict someone in your head. Sort of human nature, I guess.

Galaxystorm
12-06-2005, 05:57 PM
Mi dispiace che e arrivato a questo, ecredo che e uno delle cose piu brutte, ma la verita e la verita. .

Questa č solo la tua veritā , solo un punto di vista parziale , e non l'assoluta veritā .

decrepitude
12-06-2005, 06:03 PM
I'm criticized and "bashed", because I don't care what anyone on this board thinks or feels about my outlook. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, only difference is mine doesn't stink.

That is a matter of opinion also.

NicoFan
12-06-2005, 06:37 PM
he's lucky that it only deals with his tennis career and not his life and liberty - things that affect millions of people each day. I think it's prudent to keep in mind, that though awful for him and his family, the worst thing that happens to him is that he can't play professional tennis again, and perhaps some damage to his reputation. But he will still get to live a healthy and happy life with his family. :) And I think when the stakes are lower, as they are here, it's easier to preemptively convict someone in your head. Sort of human nature, I guess.

I've said this a lot to you today, but again - so true.

I just wish this were over. Through the good, the bad, and the ugly, I adore my chicos...and I want to see Mariano on court...not in court. Its their tennis that matters to me. (Wellllllll...and how cute I think they are... ;) :lol: )

Tennis is just a game...its supposed to be fun. Unfortunately lately it hasn't been so much fun... :sad:

Deboogle!.
12-06-2005, 06:43 PM
I've said this a lot to you today, but again - so true.It's the Con Law I'm studying today.... it's taking over my brain :lol:I just wish this were over. Through the good, the bad, and the ugly, I adore my chicos...and I want to see Mariano on court...not in court. Its their tennis that matters to me. (Wellllllll...and how cute I think they are... ;) :lol: )

Tennis is just a game...its supposed to be fun. Unfortunately lately it hasn't been so much fun... :sad:It will be over soon it sounds like, and that is good for all parties involved, as well as us fans.

All I hope is that things will improve with WADA taking over.

Daniela_CABJ
12-06-2005, 10:44 PM
wow, I had to read 4 pages of this thread and I wasn't online for 24 hours... so, I'm not going to anwer one by one...
All I have to say is:
To the ones supporting Mariano: :hug: Vamos Mariano
To the ones talking bullsh*t about him: USE YOUR F*CKING BRAIN! (at least try to... :rolleyes: )

VAMOS MARIANO!!!

buddyholly
12-06-2005, 11:33 PM
But what if the ones supporting him are the real bullshitters?

Federerthebest
12-06-2005, 11:54 PM
But what if the ones supporting him are the real bullshitters?

Exactly. Even if Puerta is found guilty, most of the Argentards and his other fans will continue to support him and deny his guilty :retard:

lau
12-07-2005, 12:05 AM
Exactly. Even if Puerta is found guilty, most of the Argentards and his other fans will continue to support him and deny his guilty :retard:
Awwwwww :hug: You continue feeling upset about the Argentardsī posts :smooch:

EDIT: You know you`re better than anyone here :wavey:

jole
12-07-2005, 12:51 AM
Awwwwww :hug: You continue feeling upset about the Argentardsī posts :smooch:

EDIT: You know you`re better than anyone here :wavey:

He/she enjoys being malicious. :p Clearly being a twit on an Internet message board is important to them.

Action Jackson
12-07-2005, 12:53 AM
I said this years ago and it makes sense now, just let the Dick Pound gang at WADA take over the drug testing and more out of competition testing. It doesn't take 6 months to take 2 samples, get a result, inform the individual concerned about a failed test, then conduct a hearing.

vamos argentina1
12-07-2005, 12:58 PM
all the anti argentines...keep being jealous...of the world sports superpower...

maradona..ginobili...nalbandian..no country has so many leading sports figures in te most popular sports (a lot of soccer stars in the leading leagues in europe..basketball gold medal and a lot of stars in teh best leagues...tennis superpower...)

anti argentines...keep boiling in your jealousy...its healthy :)

Federerthebest
12-07-2005, 01:17 PM
all the anti argentines...keep being jealous...of the world sports superpower...

Argentina is a sports superpower now? Sorry, but what was Argentina's ranking in the 2004 Athens Olympics? Interestingly enough, it was 38...with a glorious total of two gold medals. This is a country with a population of 40 million. Australia managed to win 17 gold medals and 49 medals in total with half of Argentina's population; Cuba won 27 medals with 1/4 of Argentina's population. Not to bag out Argentina, but your claim about it being a sports superpower is just :lol:.

DrJules
12-07-2005, 01:25 PM
Argentina is a sports superpower now? Sorry, but what was Argentina's ranking in the 2004 Athens Olympics? Interestingly enough, it was 38...with a glorious total of two gold medals. This is a country with a population of 40 million. Australia managed to win 17 gold medals and 49 medals in total with half of Argentina's population; Cuba won 27 medals with 1/4 of Argentina's population. Not to bag out Argentina, but your claim about it being a sports superpower is just :lol:.

Good to see that you are starting to support your arguments with facts.

lau
12-07-2005, 01:30 PM
Just for the record, talking about Argentina as a world sports superpower is TOTALLY RIDICULOUS!! ;) (having said that, Argentina does it quite well in sports considering it has got a 37 million population and half of it is poor)
And there was already a thread about this.... :p ;)

*Ljubica*
12-07-2005, 01:35 PM
Just for the record, talking about Argentina as a world sports superpower is TOTALLY RIDICULOUS!! ;) (having said that, Argentina does it quite well in sports considering it has got a 37 million population and half of it is poor)
And there was already a thread about this.... :p ;)

I agree. I don't often agree with Federerthebest ;) but on this occasion I do. I have many Argentine friends and I don't wish to offend them - but although Argentina has great tennis playes and good footballers - they are not a sports superpower. Sorry.

sigmagirl91
12-07-2005, 01:37 PM
I agree. I don't often agree with Federerthebest ;) but on this occasion I do. I have many Argentine friends and I don't wish to offend them - but although Argentina has great tennis playes and good footballers - they are not a sports superpower. Sorry.

I agree with you.
They're not close.

lau
12-07-2005, 01:37 PM
I agree. I don't often agree with Federerthebest ;) but on this occasion I do. I have many Argentine friends and I don't wish to offend them - but although Argentina has great tennis playes and good footballers - they are not a sports superpower. Sorry.
No ofense at all. :D I`m a proud Argentine girl, but Iīm not blind :cool:

NicoFan
12-07-2005, 06:15 PM
Is no news good news? I've been looking all day for news and there's nada.

Denaon
12-07-2005, 06:32 PM
I've been looking for any type of news about it and nothing :sad: I just hope they'll announce soon their decision :unsure: For good or bad this should end.

NicoFan
12-07-2005, 06:34 PM
Its 7:30 p.m. in London so I'm thinking that there may not be any news today - but who knows - maybe the journalists are still putting the story together.

And you're right - for good or bad this has to just end.

alfonsojose
12-07-2005, 06:39 PM
all the anti argentines...keep being jealous...of the world sports superpower...

maradona..ginobili...nalbandian..no country has so many leading sports figures in te most popular sports (a lot of soccer stars in the leading leagues in europe..basketball gold medal and a lot of stars in teh best leagues...tennis superpower...)

anti argentines...keep boiling in your jealousy...its healthy :)
:retard:

squirtkb97
12-07-2005, 06:41 PM
Canas' tribunal was July 20th & 21st, according to the PDF file on the ATP website, and they didn't announce the findings until August 8th. So it might be awhile until we hear something.

NicoFan
12-07-2005, 06:45 PM
Canas' tribunal was July 20th & 21st, according to the PDF file on the ATP website, and they didn't announce the findings until August 8th. So it might be awhile until we hear something.

Thanks for that...but sh*t...that's totally unfair.

Denaon
12-07-2005, 07:03 PM
:mad: I hope his time it won't take that long to announce the verdict......I guess there could be some celerity this time since the ATP is no longer in charge of the doping cases' processes

*Ljubica*
12-07-2005, 07:14 PM
Its 7:30 p.m. in London so I'm thinking that there may not be any news today - but who knows - maybe the journalists are still putting the story together.

And you're right - for good or bad this has to just end.

Yes - it's past 8.00pm here now and business hours finished a few hours ago - so I doubt we'll hear anything tonght. I am checking local TV/radio etc but - nothing. As squirtkb97 says - I think the official verdict may take a couple of weeks to be made public - even with Caņas' appeal - the hearing is 15th January and they say it wil take 3 weeks to announce the verdict. If I do hear anything here I'll let you know.

shotgun
12-07-2005, 07:32 PM
Yeap, I guess that Puerta already does know what will happen to him, but we'll just have to wait some more time. :(

Galaxystorm
12-07-2005, 07:38 PM
Yeap, I guess that Puerta already does know what will happen to him, but we'll just have to wait some more time. :(

ITF is waiting for giving him the verdict as Xmas present

Denaon
12-07-2005, 07:41 PM
Thanks Rosie for keeping us updated :D :kiss:

*Ljubica*
12-07-2005, 07:53 PM
Thanks Rosie for keeping us updated :D :kiss:

Well I have to go off-line now and soon I will be sleeping :zzz: as I get up very early for work tomorrow - but I will do my best.

DhammaTiger
12-07-2005, 08:40 PM
Thanks Rosie for the update. I just hope the nightmare for Mariano and his family and friends will end with his exoneration.

Daniela_CABJ
12-07-2005, 09:33 PM
:) thanks Rosie!

We'll have to wait :confused: (I hate waiting! :( )

Jorbaty
12-08-2005, 07:51 PM
Puerta arrived in Rio de Janeiro, where he'll play today, and didn't want to speak about his case. He even got angry at a journalist who insisted. "I'll only talk about the exhibition", he said.

shotgun
12-08-2005, 08:02 PM
Here's a photo of him training today in Rio:

http://www2.uol.com.br/tenisbrasil/imagens2005/puerta/20051208_desafio_treino_capa.jpg