Ivan Says the Shanghai Court Isn't Fast [Archive] - MensTennisForums.com

Ivan Says the Shanghai Court Isn't Fast

star
11-13-2005, 06:00 PM
Since we've heard the comments about the court from those who don't like it, I thought Ivan deserved some equal time. :)
__________________________________
Q. Guillermo just described the court
as like playing on ice.
IVAN LJUBICIC: Well, it's not that fast, I
mean.

Q. Is that almost like a sign of the
times in the sense that fast courts have been
slowed down so now playing on a medium
surface almost feels like playing on a fast
court?
IVAN LJUBICIC: Well, I guess so
because this is really not fast court. I mean, I
can accept that the court doesn't suit his game,
absolutely, because it's terrible for his game
because the topspin doesn't go up anything. I
mean, it's really difficult to move on the court
because it's really sticky, but it's not fast. I mean,
that's not the right word.
It doesn't suit his game, absolutely. I
confirm that. But I don't think it's fast really. If
you want to see fast court, come to Croatia
(smiling).

*****
Q. One more about the surface.
Some of the players are complaining about
the surface. You played in Paris. It is the
same surface. You played in Lyon two years
ago, it is the same surface. This year, too. Is
it very different from the one in France or is it
the same?
IVAN LJUBICIC: No, it's exactly the
same like one in Paris. It's absolutely exactly
the same. I mean, the problem of the surface is
that it's really different from other courts, not
these that you just mentioned, which is the same.
The surface is really sticky so you can't move.
It's really difficult to move on the court. And the
ball doesn't bounce, doesn't have natural
bounce. So it is strange.
I mean, we can complain also on grass, I
mean, because it's so strange surface we play
just couple weeks and that, and it's not natural. I
mean, we are not really feeling confident on the
court. But I think on this surface, we are playing
for a really long time. I remember even the
GreenSet Trophy before was like this. We play
our Davis Cup matches on this. And before we
had a lot of tournaments on these courts.
Maybe it just doesn't suit the guys who
are here, which, again, I can confirm. Because if
you try to rally and hit the ball back, you're not
going to be successful. So I think it suits maybe
three or four guys here, and we are eight. We
going to have a lot of complaining on the court I
think throughout the week.

Q. Given that it's a surface for the
end-of-year tournament where it's supposed
to be as fair as possible to everybody, do you
think perhaps it's the wrong choice of surface
or it could be improved on?
IVAN LJUBICIC: I mean, if I'm
tournament director, I would think about it. But I
don't know. I mean, if they put this surface, there
is a reason for that. I never played in a Masters
Cup before so I cannot compare. But, I mean,
this is what we get. It's the end of the season. I
think it's absolutely fair to have a Masters Cup
indoors because all Grand Slams are outdoors.
If you advantage one player, you
disadvantaging others. You are going to have
always someone who is complaining.

adee-gee
11-13-2005, 06:01 PM
Fair points :D

ReturnWinner
11-13-2005, 06:03 PM
where did u get that interview??????

star
11-13-2005, 06:06 PM
:lol: I got it from a secret place!


:secret: the site

Galaxystorm
11-13-2005, 06:23 PM
* Agassi ,Nadal , Davydenko , Gaudio , Nalbandian , Coria say is fast

* Federer and Ljubo say isn't fast ( :secret: curiously both players have the best serve among the 8 players :aplot: )

Truc
11-13-2005, 06:24 PM
*What does Coria think ?? :shrug:He said it's very fast.

OK, I didn't see you edited your post.

Galaxystorm
11-13-2005, 06:25 PM
He said it's very fast:

I've just corrected my previous message

Fedex
11-13-2005, 06:26 PM
* Agassi ,Nadal , Davydenko , Gaudio , Nalbandian , Coria say is fast

* Federer and Ljubo say isn't fast ( :secret: curiously both players have the best serve among the 8 players :aplot: )
That's interesting, because from what I've seen the court is playing fairly fast, like most indoor courts.

NYCtennisfan
11-13-2005, 06:50 PM
Compared to indoor courts of years past, especially the Singles Championship courts in Germany, this court is not fast.

madmanfool
11-13-2005, 06:53 PM
Well if it's the same as Paris, I agree with Ljubicic, then it's not fast.
It's among the fastest out there but i wouldn't call it fast either

1sun
11-13-2005, 07:08 PM
theres an interesting question about how courts hav slowed down and that this is actualy just an average fast court but seems really fast to the clayers because over time the courts hav slowed down.

Galaxystorm
11-13-2005, 07:10 PM
It's obvious that isn't the fastest court ever, but if Shanghai court isn't fast, and even Federer called it as half-slow , i would like to know if is there any fast surface on ATP tour nowadays ( not counting grass ) ?? :rolleyes:

Shanghai is played on a blue clay ?? :silly: , shanghai court is as slow as clay , then ? :rolleyes: , shanghai court is as slow as hard courts, then ?? :rolleyes:

The fact that this court isn't the fastest ever doesn't mean this court isn't fast in comparison with the most of the surfaces in the current ATP ...:shrug:

These days it seems fast and slow are synonyms :smash:

1sun
11-13-2005, 07:13 PM
the wimbledon courts this year were pretty slow

RaVeR
11-13-2005, 08:02 PM
TMS in Madrid have faster surface...
this surface is definitly fair..not too fast not too slow

Galaxystorm
11-13-2005, 08:20 PM
TMS in Madrid have faster surface...
this surface is definitly fair..not too fast not too slow

Are you sure Madrid is faster than Shanghai ?? :rolleyes:


It's funny , Nadal's haters ( i'n not accusing you ) said that Madrid was a very slow surface and if Shanghai is even slower than Madrid , i wonder if Shanghai is slower than Roland Garros ?? :rolleyes:

If the court is so slow, why Coria seemed to be playing on an alien court ?? . If the court is so slow and Coria is a claycouter and besides can play decent on hard, why he has played as horrible as possible against Ljubo ?? :rolleyes:

lau
11-13-2005, 08:23 PM
Are you sure Madrid is faster than Shanghai ?? :rolleyes:


It's funny , Nadal's haters ( i'n not accusing you ) said that Madrid was a very slow surface and if Shanghai is even slower than Madrid , i wonder if Shanghai is slower than Roland Garros ?? :rolleyes:


:haha: :haha:

Cervantes
11-13-2005, 08:43 PM
Since the tournament is played indoors, it's almost a given the court is gonna be faster than average. However players shouldn't complain, the Masters Cup has always been played on a fast court and fits well within the schedule at the end of the season. Would have been strange to switch to clay all of a sudden, now would it?

El Legenda
11-13-2005, 08:47 PM
the Masters Cup has always been played on a fast court and fits well within the schedule at the end of the season. Would have been strange to switch to clay all of a sudden, now would it?

thats what i said, it the thread about nadal bitching.

Galaxystorm
11-13-2005, 08:51 PM
Since the tournament is played indoors, it's almost a given the court is gonna be faster than average. However players shouldn't complain, the Masters Cup has always been played on a fast court and fits well within the schedule at the end of the season. Would have been strange to switch to clay all of a sudden, now would it?

If the season ended at indoors clay, would you agree with the TMC played on clay ??

Don't you think that non-claycouters would complain about the court , saying that it is very unfair a court so extreme , a court that benefits a concrete kind of players instead of chosing a neutral court for all the players like outdoors hard ??

prima donna
11-13-2005, 08:53 PM
Was there ever such a dilemma in Houston ?

alfonsojose
11-13-2005, 08:54 PM
It isn't that fast :shrug:

Galaxystorm
11-13-2005, 08:56 PM
It isn't that fast :shrug:

It isn't extremely fast, but it's fast , faster than any hard court on ATP court

Mane
11-13-2005, 09:22 PM
Are you sure Madrid is faster than Shanghai ?? :rolleyes:


It's funny , Nadal's haters ( i'n not accusing you ) said that Madrid was a very slow surface and if Shanghai is even slower than Madrid , i wonder if Shanghai is slower than Roland Garros ?? :rolleyes:

If the court is so slow, why Coria seemed to be playing on an alien court ?? . If the court is so slow and Coria is a claycouter and besides can play decent on hard, why he has played as horrible as possible against Ljubo ?? :rolleyes:

because Coria is in a bad form and Ljubo plays great these weeks!

Clara Bow
11-13-2005, 09:34 PM
However players shouldn't complain, the Masters Cup has always been played on a fast court and fits well within the schedule at the end of the season


Was there ever such a dilemma in Houston ?

The court in Houston was moderate. That's how it looked to me live at least. But I think that it was widely regarded as a moderate hard surface.

The only problem I recall with Houston is when Federer was complaining in 2003 that it was sloping. (I'm not accusing him of bitching- just stating his complaint, which seemed to be quite legit but caused some tension between Feds and Mattress Mac.)

Deivid23
11-13-2005, 09:35 PM
TMS in Madrid have faster surface...
this surface is definitly fair..not too fast not too slow

Teraflex is way faster than Greenset :retard:

Galaxystorm
11-13-2005, 09:42 PM
because Coria is in a bad form and Ljubo plays great these weeks!

because the match was on carpet and not on clay ;)

El Legenda
11-13-2005, 09:45 PM
because the match was on carpet and not on clay ;)

:lol: Ljubicic only win over Coria before this was on clay in 2003 in Rome. 64 63

and there only other clay match went 3 sets.

Galaxystorm
11-13-2005, 09:47 PM
The court in Houston was moderate. That's how it looked to me live at least. But I think that it was widely regarded as a moderate hard surface.

The only problem I recall with Houston is when Federer was complaining in 2003 that it was sloping. (I'm not accusing him of bitching- just stating his complaint, which seemed to be quite legit but caused some tension between Feds and Mattress Mac.)

I remember Moya saying in spanish press that Houston court had difference in height , drop.

Galaxystorm
11-13-2005, 09:49 PM
:lol: Ljubicic only win over Coria before this was on clay in 2003 in Rome. 64 63

and there only other clay match went 3 sets.

We can't compare 2003 with 2005 , both players are better nowadays.

Sjengster
11-13-2005, 10:18 PM
That's debatable. Ljubicic, definitely - but Coria? I'd say last year's claycourt season was probably him at his best, but his 2003 clay season comes a close second. Ljubicic's win over him came right in the middle of a period when Coria reached the final in Monte Carlo, won in Hamburg and then reached the semis of RG, and it was pretty comfortable as the scoreline suggests. But then I suppose the fact that it was in Rome, where the fastest claycourts are to be had, was a factor...

star
11-13-2005, 10:23 PM
This is what Coria has to say about it:

Q. You think the surface is the
biggest factor. If the match is played on an
outdoor hard court, you think you could win
today?
GUILLERMO CORIA: (Translated from
Spanish) The tactic would have been completely
different. Every match is different. Also the
tactics I would normally use against him is
completely different. It varies completely
because he's playing more on his forehand, and
that would get him more in trouble. On this
surface, being so fast, the fact is the guy can
hide a bit of his weaknesses.
I beat him indoors in Basel and
St. Petersburg, which is pretty slow indoor court.
But then Ljubicic beat me in Rome, which is on
clay, but it's much faster. It depends.

prima donna
11-13-2005, 10:26 PM
This is what Coria has to say about it:

Q. You think the surface is the
biggest factor. If the match is played on an
outdoor hard court, you think you could win
today?
GUILLERMO CORIA: (Translated from
Spanish) The tactic would have been completely
different. Every match is different. Also the
tactics I would normally use against him is
completely different. It varies completely
because he's playing more on his forehand, and
that would get him more in trouble. On this
surface, being so fast, the fact is the guy can
hide a bit of his weaknesses.
I beat him indoors in Basel and
St. Petersburg, which is pretty slow indoor court.
But then Ljubicic beat me in Rome, which is on
clay, but it's much faster. It depends.


Aren't clay and the word fast used in the same sentence an oxymoron ? :rolleyes:

prima donna
11-13-2005, 10:30 PM
Among claycourts there are also faster courts and slow claycourts, for example Rome and Acapulco are fast and Sopot slow..

Understood, but how fast can clay really get ? Certainly not fast enough to blame for Ivan ever pulling off the feat of beating Coria on clay. Maybe there's more to it than just the surface, sounds like clay isn't the only thing that's mushy these days --- maybe even Guillermo's brain.

Galaxystorm
11-13-2005, 10:36 PM
Understood, but how fast can clay really get ? Certainly not fast enough to blame for Ivan ever pulling off the feat of beating Coria on clay. Maybe there's more to it than just the surface, sounds like clay isn't the only thing that's mushy these days --- maybe even Guillermo's brain.

I'm not a Coria's fanatic and i'm not gonna defend him .

In the pro tennis every player can beat any player on any surface, so this Ljubo's victory against Coria on clay doens't tell me nothing special, if they had played 5 matches on clay and Ljubo had a postive record against him it would be quite surprising, but only a match means nothing :shrug:

star
11-13-2005, 10:36 PM
I've always read that Rome's clay is much harder.

I thought Guille's answer to the question was thoughtful and fair. He recognized that when he had beaten Ivan indoors, the surface had been more favorable to him.

I thought the most interesting part of what Ivan had to say was that the court didn't really reward movement because of its stickiness. Nadal commented on that too.

prima donna
11-13-2005, 10:44 PM
I'm not a Coria's fanatic and i'm not gonna defend him .

In the pro tennis every player can beat any player on any surface, so this Ljubo's victory against Coria on clay doens't tell me nothing special, if they had played 5 matches on clay and Ljubo had a postive record against him it would be quite surprising, but only a match means nothing :shrug:

Coria has serious mental issues or just awful luck, he competed with Nadal in Rome (thrilling 5-setter, if you're into that kind of play that is) and yet can't beat Roger on the stuff and loses to Ivan, two world class players, be it a different level of world class play. He's a clay-court specialist and arguably the best player there is, until Nadal shows consistency over a 2-3 year period on the stuff and yet he's suffering losses like this it's unacceptable.

El Legenda
11-13-2005, 10:46 PM
This is what Coria has to say about it:

Q. You think the surface is the
biggest factor. If the match is played on an
outdoor hard court, you think you could win
today?
GUILLERMO CORIA: (Translated from
Spanish) The tactic would have been completely
different. Every match is different. Also the
tactics I would normally use against him is
completely different. It varies completely
because he's playing more on his forehand, and
that would get him more in trouble. On this
surface, being so fast, the fact is the guy can
hide a bit of his weaknesses.
I beat him indoors in Basel and
St. Petersburg, which is pretty slow indoor court.
But then Ljubicic beat me in Rome, which is on
clay, but it's much faster. It depends.

did Coria say anything about how stupid he was to keep going to Ivan backhand then running to the net, and getting passed everytime ? :)

NYCtennisfan
11-13-2005, 10:51 PM
AGain, it's the fastest surface out there along with Paris-Bercy and Lyon. The grass courts at Wimby are not as fast anymore but you still get the low, skiddish bounce which in effect makes the court much faster.

If you compare this court with the courts used for the Singles Championships in Germany in the 90's, this court is not that fast. I remember Pete, Boris and Goran on those courts. Those were some quick points.

Skyward
11-13-2005, 10:51 PM
In the pro tennis every player can beat any player on any surface, so this Ljubo's victory against Coria on clay doens't tell me nothing special, if they had played 5 matches on clay and Ljubo had a postive record against him it would be quite surprising, but only a match means nothing :shrug:

Coria seems to have problems with powerful servers. I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to lose Roddick on clay. :shrug:

Federerthebest
11-13-2005, 10:58 PM
In hindsight, given the withdrawals, I'm sure that the ATP would have preferred a slower surface and it may have been that this would have made for prettier tennis. Watching Coria playing Ljubicic was just painful. But I maintain that a fast court for the Masters Cup is logical given that it comes so close to the indoor season.

Galaxystorm
11-13-2005, 11:00 PM
Coria seems to have problems with powerful servers. I wouldn't be surprised if he managed to lose Roddick on clay. :shrug:

If Roddick has a very good day with his serve is able to beat a lot of claycouters on clay , even if he had a very good week with his serve could win a TMS on clay ( although Roland Garros is impossible, matches at the best of 5 sets ,two weeks , it's too much for him ) , Big servers have this advantage since serve is the most key shot in tennis and even playing on clay can win matches practically only thanks for their serve . In fact Roddick already defeated Coria on clay some years ago

And i wouldn't say Coria has a bad return .

star
11-13-2005, 11:07 PM
Yes, Andy defeated Guille on clay in Houston. I think that was about 4 or 5 years ago. Guille was just making his comeback after his suspension. :)

I have fond memories of that match.

star
11-13-2005, 11:09 PM
did Coria say anything about how stupid he was to keep going to Ivan backhand then running to the net, and getting passed everytime ? :)

Not in those words. :)

If you are truly curious, you can read his interview at the site. It's a charming one. :)

El Legenda
11-13-2005, 11:13 PM
Not in those words. :)

If you are truly curious, you can read his interview at the site. It's a charming one. :)

maybe i will, but i dont know what he was thinking by going to the backhand so much. :)

Galaxystorm
11-13-2005, 11:16 PM
Yes, Andy defeated Guille on clay in Houston. I think that was about 4 or 5 years ago. Guille was just making his comeback after his suspension. :)

I have fond memories of that match.

in that match Guille's t-shirt was as sexy as his spiderman-orange ? :lol:

El Legenda
11-13-2005, 11:17 PM
Yes, Andy defeated Guille on clay in Houston. I think that was about 4 or 5 years ago. Guille was just making his comeback after his suspension. :)

I have fond memories of that match.

he was also not as good back then.

Federerhingis
11-13-2005, 11:32 PM
How much faster does he want it to be? I thought they were mighty fast they were taking those slice serves very well and most of Federers forehand crosscourt winners sticking to the court and flying off. Every backhand pass by Nalbandian became almost an instant winner.

This court is perfect for his huge serve. :p

star
11-13-2005, 11:37 PM
he was also not as good back then.

Well, yes. I said it was right when Guille was coming off his suspension. I have fond memories of that match because that's when I first saw Guille play and really became a fan.

monicain
11-14-2005, 07:47 AM
I could never understand players complaining TMC court is too fast. It's supposed to be that fast. It's the climax of the Indoor carpet season. That's it. If the slow, high-bouncing, sliding season comes to climax at Roland Garros, Chatrier Court is expected to provide such conditions. If the fast, skidding, low-bouncing, spinless season comes to climax at Wimbledon, Centre Court is expected to provide such conditions. And the steady bouncing season comes to climax at the US OPen, Arthur Ashe is expected to provide such conditions. So why should TMC, at the end of the indoor carpet season, provide anything but a fast, sticky surface? :confused: It's very logical the way it is.

Clara Bow
11-14-2005, 11:04 AM
It's the climax of the Indoor carpet season.

I always think of it as the climax of the year since the participants are chosen for their performances throughout the year and not just one season.

OUT!
11-14-2005, 11:31 AM
Typical! Second rate player making more excuses.

Baseline
11-14-2005, 01:28 PM
If you compare this court with the courts used for the Singles Championships in Germany in the 90's, this court is not that fast. I remember Pete, Boris and Goran on those courts. Those were some quick points.

See below interview with Muster - seems even Sampras went on record as
not liking Teraflex, the same surface used in Shanghai this year. I
believe the ATP changed the surface for 1997, so maybe if the players
formally object this time the ATP might listen???

Not all carpets are the same, and an ultra-fast carpet is not the same
as a fast hard court. Teraflex doesn't seem to be favored by many ATP
players - probably only Ljubicic likes it out of the 8 this year?

Makes me wonder about the details of the deal between the ATP and
Gerflor which was made during the ATP's Miles era - I'm optimistic
things will improve under the new management. I'll reserve judgment
until I see just how much.
_______________________________

1996 ATP WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP - HANNOVER, GERMANY
November 22, 1996 - An interview with: THOMAS MUSTER

Q. Even Sampras was saying that he thought the surface was too fast.

THOMAS MUSTER: I think all players agreed. I think they signed a
paper, all of us, that this tournament should be played on hard court.
And, I think it has a pretty good chance next year ATP Tour Finals is
going to be played on hard surface like the U.S. Open or something
similar.


Q. You are saying that even Teraflex is not slow enough? You want it
to be --

THOMAS MUSTER: Not me. Everybody. All of us agreed, yeah, this should be.


Q. Like a cement sort of surface?

THOMAS MUSTER: Right.


Q. When was this thing submitted this letter or --

THOMAS MUSTER: Today. And, I think it was signed by everybody.

http://www.asapsports.com/tennis/199.../112296TM.html
_____________________________
From the Gerflor Website:

"Gerflor's Taraflex will become the `Official ATP Court Surface.'The
ATP also has selected Taraflex as the court surface for the Tennis
Masters Cup Shanghai from 2005-2007. The event, which is co-owned by
the ATP, ITF and Grand Slams, will be played at the new $200 million
Qi Zhong Tennis Center in Shanghai, China."

Teraflex also used at Paris MS, Lyon, and one of the Russian tournaments.